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Eagle/Phoenix

Discussion in 'UHall' started by PaithanTheElf, May 16, 2017.

  1. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Dude, it's basically one pet following a bit slower, yet still faster than almost any pet prior to this pub. How would that make the publish irellivant? The rest of it, specials effecting players could easily be altered with zero effect to pvm.
     
  2. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Lore Master

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    What is the big deal, the Pheinox (1 pet out of allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the pet changes) Runs faster then a player on a horse. That shouldnt be okay, why do you think thats okay? We arent crying about anything.
     
  3. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
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    I find it to be hilarious as fudge. Some players use stuff they shouldn't (outside the enhanced client) to give themselves a boost, and this is exactly the type of thing needed in order to shake things up for a bit. The underdogs finally have an opportunity to even the playing field, so might as well give them their moment under the sun.
     
  4. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Lore Master

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    What do you mean, say i started at the front of hythloth, player B says "all kill" i could run up and down the steps all around the walls everywhere and it would still be biting me by the time i hit level 2.

    Nobody needs that.
     
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  5. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah your right just the speed of one pet. This is what I'm talking about. Keep chipping away until the publish is irrelevant.
     
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  6. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
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    I see this bird as a bit of karma vs. those that otherwise couldn't be caught by normal means. I mean those who use that which shall not be named to break the UO sound barrier among other things.
     
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  7. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Slippery slope nonsense. Address each thing by its merit.
     
  8. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Cept the cheaters can still probably escape, leaving only the non cheaters to suffer.
     
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  9. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
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    Haven't you noticed who is doing most of the complaining? :popcorn:
     
  10. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    I just performed a test on TC, and it does seem that DEX is influencing movement speed now. I tamed 2 Magpies with 25 DEX/Stam, gave one 150 DEX, and the other 150 Stamina, let it regen all of its Stamina, and had them follow me. The 150 DEX/25 Stamina one was vastly faster than the 25 DEX/150 Stamina one. I then had a third Magpie, gave it 150 DEX/150 Stamina, and it was the same speed as the 150 DEX/25 Stamina Magpie.

    Interesting, considering before they capped Stamina at 150 and made it so that Stamina won't naturally raise past 125 without leveling (even if DEX is still rising), for my craftsman i would repeatedly buy Pack Horses until i got one with at least 55 more Stamina than DEX (they could spawn with up to 65 more, for 190 Stamina cap). Once i trained it up to 125 DEX, it'd have 180+ Stamina, and move stupid fast, far faster than 125 DEX/125 Stam pets would. Hence why i would go through all that trouble, i didn't have to wait for my Pack Horses to catch up then. Those Pack Horses i trained up are now 125 DEX/150 Stamina, and are far slower than they used to be. You can't even get 125 DEX/150 Stam 1 Slot Pack Horses anymore, so the ones i have are now pre-patch.
    Something seems to have changed in regards to how DEX and Stamina interacts with Movement Speed now.
     
    #110 PlayerSkillFTW, May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  11. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
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    So, upon attack I am under the assumption that the dex. drops to 150. Not that it matters I suppose, all follow wouldn't be seen as an aggression correct?
     
  12. Slayvite

    Slayvite Babbling Loonie
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    As I now have a nice newly bonded Phoenix to play with, let us dismiss some myths here.....
    They are not as fast as a person ON FOOT running once tamed, only when they are wild.
    They can be awkward to control sometimes as it if targets a mob *poof* its gone and you then have to run around trying to find which direction it took off in.
    They are a great pet for PvM but after trying it in a few PvP scenarios with a bored PvP player we both agree they are not a big deal in PvP, they have lower resists and HP and can easily be dealt with WITHOUT running away in fear.
    Remember you PvP crybabies......Wild=Hard, Tamed=weak ass.

    So lets review..
    Pvp crybabies are about to get the Phoenix nerfed because its a good PvM pet, NOT because its a death dealing PvP nightmare....
    :yell:
     
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  13. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Yep we made it all up. Every bit of it. There was a big fight at ice dungeon last night. I had my Phoenix. Other guild had 2 phoenix s. The birds were a total game changer in the fight.


    I gotta know. Where in pvm are these birds even being used/useful? Are people really making 5slot ones and sitting on foot like they did with greater dragons? Are they using them over some of the great mounted pets like the cu sidhe? I feel like if ur pvming with a phoenix you are just flat doing it wrong.

    I made a video last night but it was a poor example because the person stayed on screen to fight. He got utterly destroyed in maybe 10 seconds by the hellspawn, but the video didn't demonstrate the chasing speed. It did however demo the dismounting while I stayed mounted. I was gunna make some more vids but not only was my internet shot last night with packet loss, that recording program makes me slow as ****.
     
    #113 Cetric, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  14. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    What I think is happening is that dex is top speed, and the current % of full stamina = what % of pets top speed it moves. So 300 dex 90/100 stamina would move as fast as 300 dex 9/10 stamina. Makes sense anyway.
     
  15. PaithanTheElf

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    LOL yes let's listen to the non pvper. Great idea.

    No, take a test from someone who actually knows what they are doing. That is how this works.
     
  16. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    Oh look a pvper dismissing someone's opinion because they don't pvp. That's soooo surprising. Your nerf requests effect everyone including the majority of players. You know the pvm crowd. @Slayvite you might want to be careful. Soon they will be claiming to have done mean things to your mom.
     
  17. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Alright here it goes for the disbelievers. I asked Forsaken to come be my guinea pig for a quick video, knowing full well this wouldn't end well for him. Forsaken is a good mage, and a known pvper. You'll notice here he even apples to remove curse causing the Phoenix to do less damage. It really doesn't matter because the second it dismounts him he is done for, which is why i casually casted a few spells. This could of been over faster with a real combo, but i really wanted to see the dismount get off. Unfortunately Forsaken is a good dude, and actually tried to cast some offense at the beginning rather than just flat out running away, so the phoenix speed didn't show off, but we'll get to that.

    You'll also notice that when it dismounts him, I remain on mount. Very imbalanced. You pretty much stick it on someone and play defensively until the dismount goes off, then go full offense. He tries to move away and heal once he is dismounted, but there is no running from it while also trying to heal to recover.

    Should I also mention that Forsaken is a wrestle/parry mage? He is on a DEFENSIVE template against melee, and it barely helped him.

    [​IMG]


    To give further example of that, here is me sticking the phoenix on me. I am not cursed so the damages are a bit less. My phoenix also isn't max damage, and still has magery. Several people are using mystic so the phoenix can sleep for itself, and spellweaving so the phoenix casts wind/thunderstorm. These cause much greater problems.

    [​IMG]

    You'll notice here, that I can run with it, not from it. It has 120 resist, so I cannot paralyze it, and though it at times appear to be a few tiles behind, the 19 damage ticks are it's melee damage on me uncursed meaning it is still hitting me because of the speed. It quickly jumps back to right on me though. Also take notice, that as soon as I attempt to cast a spell, which pauses you, i'm done in. Now imagine that, but with a mage casting you down mounted, or a dexer nerve striking, AI, deathstrike, etc..



    Now I feel i've done my due dilligence in trying to get these pets addressed. I've done more testing on test center than most people pre and post publish and feel I am in a good position to explain these things. Balls in your court before pvp is totally diminished from these pets, which is unfortunate because pvp has been EXTREMELY active, and now the pets are going to knock it wayyy back.
     
    #117 Cetric, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  18. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    ...dismissing their opinion on something they don't do. Is that really so crazy?
     
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  19. redman2k

    redman2k Adventurer
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    Aren't phoenixes 4 slots that don't start with dismount? Didn't you have to train it to a 5 slot to get dismount in which case how did you stay mounted? I haven't actually tamed one, only looked it up on uoguide.com for its control slots etc.

    You mention a player being destroyed in 10 seconds, what was his template? What were the details of his gear and does he normally pvp? Was he a guild mate or an enemy? Was one phoenix on him or multiple? How high were the phoenixes skills trained? You say destroyed in 10 seconds, but that's actually a decent amount of time to actually do something (including running off screen), did he actually do anything to combat the situation? You should post the video so we can watch even if it is a poor quality.

    Side note, I am not being combative with you, I am genuinely curious on the outcome of the battle.
     
  20. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Some Phoenix come 3 slots, some 4.
     
  21. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    See my post with videos.
     
  22. Slayvite

    Slayvite Babbling Loonie
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    So you're complaining because a PvP skill has been applied to a pet by a player......NOT the Phoenix.
    Back when I used to PvP (when it was actually about skill and not just hacks and 3rd party programs) one of the 1st things we learned was...
    You run, you die.

    A simple fix to all this is to make all Phoenix a minimum of a 4 slot pet.
    I would add that the Phoenix isn't the worst of the new pets to fear......but you must have one of those wolves as your keeping quiet about them.....

    Like anything new.....you will have to change your style and adapt, then you will not fear a little bird anymore.
    If you cannot make a PvP template to counter Dismount, then your just a bad Pvp'er and it's not our fault.
     
  23. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Nope. Phoenix is OP because you can't outrun it. You can outrun anything else.

    You stand still you get dismounted and double mana dumped on by a mounted foe and his pet. Then you are dead. Run is the ONLY thing you can do... till you get dismounted then you are dead.

    Yes it is. It's 100 dex faster than any other tamable, which of course is the whole point of this thread.
     
  24. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    You could share with us your template ideas to deal with it. Maybe we could test it out, see how it works.

    Of course it's not JUST dismount, it's also a bird hitting you for 20 melee damage while casting, and you can't run away from it.
     
  25. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Yes lets all make parry ninja chars and water down pvp, after the previous publish breathed some life into it with template expansion.

    4 slotting them will just force their handlers to make gargoyles, and then the problems remain.

    There is no super wolf. I've tested all the new wolves (Dragon wolf, tsuki wolf, etc). None of them are anymore viable then anything else can be (which is op in many cases) with the exception you can get overcapped resist skill on a dragon wolf.

    That being said, i have no doubt there are some other pets that might be an issue, but either haven't come to light or just arent nearly as viable. Shadow Wyrm has crazy huge damage output, but its not viable to tote around in pvp. Why? Mainly because the movement speeds are normalized.


    Anyways though, I hope it is recognized in the backend that some of these posters are just trolls attempting to circumvent the balancing.
     
  26. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
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    @Cetric, sorry friend, ninja won't work since the bird can also take you out of form. :wall:
     
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  27. redman2k

    redman2k Adventurer
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    Thanks for the video, it is actually a really good example of the phoenix not being overpowered. The two of you essentially dueled each other and since its basically a 2v1, I would expect the tamer to have the advantage, but not necessarily win every time. It is very similar to a pure mage dueling a nox mage, the nox mage has an advantage due to the increased difficulty of curing poison coupled with close quarters, but that doesn't guarantee a victory.

    The video is a little biased to make the tamer appear very powerful. The mage doesn't even attempt to heal himself until after he has been dismounted and is already half life. I also don't see him use any pots here, the video isn't super great quality its possible he did but his health bar is always steadily going down. It took the phoenix roughly 5 seconds from the start of the video, again he didn't start full life so probably longer, to dismount him, which is a decent amount of time to create distance from the battle and regroup.

    I am curious about his template. You mentioned Forsaken as a wrestle/parry mage, is he 120 on both skills with 45 dci and 80 dex? I've faced them before with those stats and they are a ***** to hit. It would seem he just got unlucky with the RNG because you mentioned that the phoenix isn't fully trained, so that it was able to hit him AND land a dismount seems like it was an unfortunate circumstance. (Yes I know pets spam specials so any hit would have probably been a disamount.)

    The video honestly looks more like a "Lets shawarma around" than a "Lets try to kill each other." It basically showcases the strengths of a tamer in pvp but a far cry from being overpowered.

    The second video showcases how annoying it is when you get dismounted in combat and that's about it. You are missing your actual mount to attempt a re-mount and run away. The video lasts 15 seconds (a life time), you don't even attempt to heal in the beginning and you don't use a pot. But of course its also missing the tamer dumping on you too. I get you are showcasing its speed but its not a real life display. The really good pvpers use those warhorses and keep them alive/cured for a re-mount (I am not one).

    If a phoenix can keep up on a player mounted while running, I can understand the need for a nerf. But at the same time, if the phoenix is the only animal that is that fast, that makes them unique and desirable. Take that away and will anyone want to tame one?
     
  28. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
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    @redman2k, both forsaken and Cetric are very capable PvPers.
     
  29. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    As i've already given, My icq is 382-462-294. Feel free to contact me and we'll setup a fight, and you can see how well you do with a phoenix on you. You can even record it and post up your refute about how not overpowered they are, just don't come on some impractical 100% defense template and try to scream "i told you so!". Any of you who think they aren't overpowered, just hit me up and we can make your video showing how they aren't.

    These demonstrations were simple demos on TC. Forsaken was healing, but he couldn't effectively heal. He also had that live mount you are referring to, and he would of never had a chance to remount it. In a real scenario as you refer, i'd of either poisoned or para/invised that mount if he lived long enough to remount it, and rather than casting an exp and whatever else i casted, i'd have casted sleep on him, set him up for phoenix dismount, and basically just set him up for guaranteed death rather than assumed death. Pretty much if the phoenix foots them, they are guaranteed dead. The second video was just to show what the first video lacked, the phoenix staying right on you for melee hits. My phoenix has 120 wrestle and 120 resist, i never said it wasn't fully trained, i just said it was not max damage. You can make nastier versions. Hell just being cursed i want to say it does like 22-23 melee dmg hits alone
     
    #129 Cetric, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  30. PaithanTheElf

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    Wow. This is a whole lot of why devs should not listen to a non PvPer.
     
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  31. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    The real-world fight where paith got eaten up by the phoenix, i'm assuming his first encounter with one, was very much like the forsaken demo. Paith attacked me, i put the bird on him and slept him. He got dismounted and ran... Paith is a 4second bandage healing mage with full use of potions. He did not stay alive with a phoenix on him.

    I'm done making examples for folks who choose to be ignorant to the issue though.
     
  32. CovenantX

    CovenantX Crazed Zealot
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    One is enough, after that it's a lost cause if nothing is done.
     
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  33. redman2k

    redman2k Adventurer
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    I never said they weren't capable pvpers. For a lack of a better term, the video looks "staged". There are typical maneuvers one takes when pvping. Such as, why would Forsaken stay on the same screen as the tamer/pet when he is half life (and not dismounted yet)? Why didn't he pot? He didn't appear to attempt a re-mount nor teleport away, etc, etc.
     
  34. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Please icq me and be the guinea pig for another video. You sound like you know what you are doing. Again, real scenario all things considered, I'd never allow him to remount let alone teleport away, and we can demonstrate that together. Will the video be longer than 10 seconds? Probably, but it won't change the result.
     
  35. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
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    That's INSANE...and it looks like it's just as fast as an un-tamed Phoenix. If it was JUST the pet, ok, MAYBE you could run away, but it'd be really difficult. I'm assuming your Phoenix has enhanced resists as well?

    It just boggles my mind that things like this, no matter how much testing & feedback the devs get about it, are allowed to go to live shards.
     
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  36. redman2k

    redman2k Adventurer
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    Lets wave our hands in the air and start over, I think we have a case of miscommunication here. I'm not saying there isn't an issue with the pet changes.

    If you were to say "all kill" with your phoenix (or any pet), target me and I run mounted as fast as I can for 20 screens and that phoenix is still on me, yes I TOTALLY AGREE that needs to be nerfed. If I am already footed and a pet (any type) is told to kill me, should it be able to stay with me even though I am running as fast as I can on foot? Now that I don't know the answer. It feels like a yes it should be able to stay on me, I am footed. If not, tamers pvp stock probably plummets to zero as pets are very easy to avoid in combat.

    Should a pet be able to dismount me, even though its master is mounted? Again, I don't know the answer, it feels like a yes. HOWEVER, its currently the only template that can do so, aside from two lancers jousting. If they are allowed to, that would mean stealth/archers stock goes down in pvp since a tamer could replace them and be more versitile. So for balancing reasons, I can easily see the reason to force a tamer to drop mount before their pet will attempt a dismount.

    The main reason I am so critical of your videos is because they are both situational and 1v1. You can take the best 1v1 duelist who never loses a fight, drop them into a group pvp setting and they have no idea how to handle it. Can 2 tamers with 2 phoenixes take down 2 parry mages? I believe that will fall back to skill, who has the better cross healing/dumping, area awareness and baiting.

    So when I read how Paith attacked you and was basically embarrassed, it simply sounds like a rant, calling for a nerf. But I do agree, if you can never shake a phoenix on a mount, that is an issue.
     
  37. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    We can demonstrate that in our video as well. Please icq me to setup.


    PS. How is the original post wrong for calling for a Nerf after he died to something, when the one abusing the overpowered thing is the one openly trying to get it nerfed! Unreal.
     
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  38. PaithanTheElf

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    2 phoenix tamers will DESTROY two parry mages. You apparently are lacking on what is skill and how to crossheal/dump, which is understandable. Would love to see that fight though. lol

    I died to him, but also disconnected in the fight. My chances of living were not great when I DCed. Not the point, though. They are supremely overpowered and will ruin further what was already pretty bad pvp to begin with. I had been fighting vs phoenixs vs people who lacked pvp know how and they were still terrorizing the pvp scene. You give that to someone that is half way decent and they are a game changer. Not just one v one either.
     
  39. redman2k

    redman2k Adventurer
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    Its interesting you and Cetric are starting to troll me. Why am I lacking on the understanding of what skill is and how to crossheal/dump? I think I understand the mechanics of the game just as well as you do and see that a pet that can stay on-top of a mounted player is problematic.

    At no point in either video did we see a player running full speed on a mount away from a phoenix. A mechanic like that is game breaking. What we do see is a player who is stopping to cast offensive spells, while completely ignoring a pet, that has dismount, attacking him. It does highlight the fact that, a tamer can dismount another player while remaining mounted, that is pretty powerful and should be addressed. Game changing? Yes, more tamers will pvp. Game breaking? Probably not. Imbalanced? Yes, no other template can do that while mounted.

    You also don't have to save face by saying you were disconnected or that your chances of living were not great while DCed. If your chances of living aren't 0% while DCed when 1v1ing someone then your competition isn't very good. Its a game, you'll live sometimes and die sometimes, don't sweat it.
     
  40. PaithanTheElf

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    I couldn't care less if I died to Cet and his pet. He's a friend of mine. I meant with my bandaids and pots, I could have probably lived a little longer, but with him casting- it most likely would have been a moot point... Again, who cares?

    You should take him up on his offer and test it yourself instead of theorizing about who could win fights. I have fought multiple bird users over the course of a week and I KNOW how overpowered they are. You clearly do not. The way you are defending it makes me think you defended WOD when it came out or Holy Fist when it came out. I have pvped through every era and it is quite simple for me to tell when something is offensively overpowered.
     
    Happy Rage likes this.
  41. Slayvite

    Slayvite Babbling Loonie
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    I suppose this just emphasises the need for Siege to be made into a fully useful shard.
    Turn it into a shard with 7 chars each like others, where people can transfer to and from like the others, but keep it 100% PvP.
    Now remove PvP from all other shards.
    We can then have 2 rulesets where PvP doesn't ruin PvM updates and vice-versa.
    PvM shards can keep the new stuff that's introduced and it can be nerfed for an separate update to Seige.

    We have been going round and round for near 20 years and are still no closer as to how to make updates or "new stuff" fair to both PvP and PvM....it cannot be done, so just separate it whilst not alienating it.
    You want to trade and play nice with others, port over to a PvM shard, you wanna just beat each other up and bad mouth my mother then you can pop off back to a PvP shard.....
     
  42. CovenantX

    CovenantX Crazed Zealot
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    What's to stop people from doing what they're doing, Farming shards where there isn't pvp... and flooding the market on the shard(s) that have the only pvp?
     
  43. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Having the ability to see the whole picture and not just the little piece that effects you is important in everything, let alone little old UO gaming.
     
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  44. Slayvite

    Slayvite Babbling Loonie
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    There really isn't that many PvP'ers to make that more than a few weeks annoyance, after that it will be back to normal.
    Except that others will be able to go farm there own powerscrolls ect without the risk of being ganked after doing all the hard work.

    Personally I would make it that your char can shard travel and pets,money but items cannot, but that's just me.
     
  45. redman2k

    redman2k Adventurer
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    Are you sure you are not trolling me? What is he going to prove to me? I have already said that if any pet (phoenix or not) can stay on you while mounted, that is game breaking, even if it doesn't have dismount.

    I haven't pvp'd with my tamer. But I've fought in groups with and against the other types of pets (mainly nightmares) after the patch. I wasn't overly shocked by their abilities but thought they added great utility to a fight. You really have to watch getting fielded in a bottleneck with a pet.
     
  46. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
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    @redman2k, think Benny Hill, but with a Phoenix instead of the harem.
     
  47. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I literally made the comment to someone the other night "This is the funniest temp i've played since Spell Plague/Nerve Strike or WOD archers.

    What happened to those chars again anyways?
     
  48. cobb

    cobb Seasoned Veteran

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    Lot of trolls in here who don't pvp. Phoenix run speed has nothing to do with pvm, but they keep chiming in, trying to derail the thread. I would understand if the proposed fixes would actually affect pvm.
     
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  49. Slayvite

    Slayvite Babbling Loonie
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    Were chiming in because of the PvP'ers moaning, Mesanna is gonna not just slow it down but also reduce it base damage......which greatly impacts on PvM.
     
  50. cobb

    cobb Seasoned Veteran

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    Lowering base damage is the wrong move. Ppl in here are not suggesting that. They are talking about the movement speed.