(Dev Feedback): FACTS about cannons and ships

[hawkeye_pike]

To the Development Team:

I recently tried all the ship operating and ship-to-ship battle content, and I now can objectively back up the concerns I already published with some facts. Let's look at the Pirate Bounty-Board Quests as an example:

For defeating a pirate ship and repairing the ship afterwards, the following resources were required:

• 1700 salpeter
• 1100 boards
• 1100 ingots
• 550 cloth
• 280 sulphurous ash
• 50 balls of yarn

Crafting the required resources (ammunition) took approximately 2 hours, time for shopping and collecting resources (approximately another 5 hours) not included.

The following steps are necessary to craft the consumables:

• Step 1: Ramrod
• Step 2: Charcoal from boards
• Step 3: Potash from boards
• Step 4: Black Powder from sulphurous ash, salpeter, charcoal
• Step 5: Charge fom black powder, cloth
• Step 6: Cannon Ball from ingots
• Step 7: Fuse Cord from black powder, yarn, potash
• Step 8: Match Cord from black powder, yarn, potash
• Step 9: Match from match cords, boards
• Step 10: Swab

Operating the cannon takes the following steps per shot (about 50 shots were fired):

• Step 1: Clean Weapon
• Step 2: Charge
• Step 3: Load
• Step 4: Select ammunition
• Step 5: Prime
• Step 6: Fire

That's a total of 250 clicks per battle, only for handling cannons.

As much as I like realism, this is a bit extreme. Crafting the consumables is extremely time-consuming and annoying. The consumption of salpeter is way too high. Also, repairing the ship costs way too many resources, and if you consider how much time it takes to collect those 1100 boards and 1100 ingots, it is not worth the while doing these quests.

Also, think of the nuisance the player has to go through when buying the salpeter (given that each vendor sells 40 at a time unless they were bought empty half an hour before). He'd have to visit the vendor about 40 times!

Those new ships and features are really VERY VERY GREAT, but please consider optimizing them for the sake of playing fun!

[Edit: I had to correct the numbers, as I had forgotten that the pirate ship was damaged by two ships]

 

[MalagAste]

Our first outing trying to take in a pirate...

We ended up killing the pirate accidentally which didn't help...

We used over 200 shot which of course was a lot... but I think we figured out where the "sweetspots" are for hitting the ships... and I am guessing you have to damage both sides of the enemy vessel to do much good....

All in all I figure we used at least 200k in resources... and that doesn't include the time.... all for 2k in reward. Not so good with the "risk vs reward"... as far as time and money invested for the reward.

Sure it was fun and exciting and it was pretty cool to see the damage happen... But ..... again that will get old really fast and it's FAR too expensive to be doing that at any regularity.

 

[Slickjack]

So, what you're saying Pike, is if you've only got 2 hours of play time per day, you basically have to start preparing for a Saturday bounty hunt on Thursday.......

 

[hawkeye_pike]

So, what you're saying Pike, is if you've only got 2 hours of play time per day, you basically have to start preparing for a Saturday bounty hunt on Thursday.......

What I'm saying is that the casual player would have to prepare one week in advance for fighting a single sea-battle. Thus the casual player will not use cannons at all. (And with casual I mean 2 hours of playing per day.)

 

[Muu Bin]

To add to the OP's comments about ship repair I would like to add the following:

I logged on this evening, after having logged out last night with my new ship moored right near the buoys on the outskirts of the floating market. I recalled on to my new ship to discover that it wasn't so "new" anymore. It looked as if either a bomb (or two) has gone off or The Who (circa early '70's) had partied all night on the boat.

It was heavily damaged in probably the worst way possible. So, I recalled home, grabbed enough boards and cloth to limp into port, and then began repairs. Long story short, it took multiple recalls home to gather supplies and after all was said and done, my ship was repaired after about 10 minutes. Final tally was 1520 boards and 860 cloth.

That is an insane amount of resources.

The repairs aside, I do have one last question and that is... can anyone damage your ship on the Trammel side or is it only pirates who can do this? If anyone can fire on your ship while you are logged then it is going to make the fishing quests kind of pointless.

 

[Gheed]

This really isn't geared for solo play. Group benefits are extremely more rewarding. from 5 battles tonight my group of three worked very well. One piloted the ship while the other two got resources between battles (you can recall between ships) and fished for monger quests. I even recalled to my ship between battles to complete monger quests. We were all pretty busy the entire time.

And you do recover some resources as loot from the battle. not so much wood and ingots but we ended up with 60 wool and cotton which I just converted into 86 bolts of cloth.

As for handing over the pirate... you would do your best to have as full a party as possible... trust me its worth it.

 

[Skrag]

Alchemists should make powder charges out of sulfur ash and saltpeter. That's it. One step. Smiths should make cannons and ammunition as they do.

Firing a cannon should consist of two steps. Loading and firing. Everything else is pointless clicking.

Loot rewards for ship combat should be an order of magnitude higher.

Not overly fond of the idea of shoveling ingots into a cannon to repair it. I'd rather have them slowly wear out with time and just keep a few spare deeds around. I don't have to fool around with ingots at all, and blacksmiths do a steady business in cannons.

Let carpenters make "ship repair kits" or something like that, using wood, which are used near shore and can fully repair your ship. Saves me lugging wood/cloth around.

Way, way too much overhead as it is.

 

[popps]

As much as I like realism, this is a bit extreme. Crafting the consumables is extremely time-consuming and annoying. The consumption of salpeter is way too high. Also, repairing the ship costs way too many resources, and if you consider how much time it takes to collect those 1100 boards and 1100 ingots, it is not worth the while doing these quests.

Those new ships and features are really VERY VERY GREAT, but please consider optimizing them for the sake of playing fun!

[Edit: I had to correct the numbers, as I had forgotten that the pirate ship was damaged by two ships]

While I think that the loot or quest reward should balance out the cost for time invested in repairs and cost for materials (i.e. one should gain "more" than what was spent in the process to make it worth it...), did you try operating the ship with a TEAM of sailors to make running operations smoother and less time consuming for an individual ?

These ships are very large, they are "Galleons", and I find it quite ackward the thought that 1 single sailor might operate them all alone and, on top of that, also easily and smoothly......

One sailor ships are the old ships, these ships to be operated swiftly and smoothly need a TEAM with each individual doing a task.

At least, that is how I see it.

To me, these ships have been designed properly and thoughtfully and even the salpeter issue I think it only an issue now, because of the novelty. Give it time that people build up their stocks and it won't be an issue any longer I think.

The only part I can possibly agree with is the reward amount for fights involving the new ships. Clearly, to make quests or fighting new MoBs which require the use of the new ships the rewards have to match whatever are the costs (shooting the cannons and repairing the ship after the fight) for the fight.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

This really isn't geared for solo play. Group benefits are extremely more rewarding. from 5 battles tonight my group of three worked very well. One piloted the ship while the other two got resources between battles (you can recall between ships) and fished for monger quests. I even recalled to my ship between battles to complete monger quests. We were all pretty busy the entire time.

And you do recover some resources as loot from the battle. not so much wood and ingots but we ended up with 60 wool and cotton which I just converted into 86 bolts of cloth.

We were a group of 4, and another 3 people on the second ship. I didn't even count the repairs the second ship needed.

The resources we found on the pirate ship were so few compared to what we needed for the repairs that it isn't really worth mentioning.

 

[popps]

Our first outing trying to take in a pirate...

We ended up killing the pirate accidentally which didn't help...

We used over 200 shot which of course was a lot... but I think we figured out where the "sweetspots" are for hitting the ships... and I am guessing you have to damage both sides of the enemy vessel to do much good....

All in all I figure we used at least 200k in resources... and that doesn't include the time.... all for 2k in reward. Not so good with the "risk vs reward"... as far as time and money invested for the reward.

Sure it was fun and exciting and it was pretty cool to see the damage happen... But ..... again that will get old really fast and it's FAR too expensive to be doing that at any regularity.

How about looking at it from a different perspective ??

It is fun, isn't it ?
But costly.........

Perhaps it was intended as one of those gold sink I have heard many players ask for ages ?

We often complain that there is too much gold in the game and this causes up inflation.
Well, we have a fun activity which costs gold (i.e. it takes gold out of the game...).

There we go, a gold sink like people have been asking for a long time ??

 

[hawkeye_pike]

While I think that the loot or quest reward should balance out the cost for time invested in repairs and cost for materials (i.e. one should gain "more" than what was spent in the process to make it worth it...), did you try operating the ship with a TEAM of sailors to make running operations smoother and less time consuming for an individual ?

These ships are very large, they are "Galleons", and I find it quite ackward the thought that 1 single sailor might operate them all alone and, on top of that, also easily and smoothly......

One sailor ships are the old ships, these ships to be operated swiftly and smoothly need a TEAM with each individual doing a task.

At least, that is how I see it.

To me, these ships have been designed properly and thoughtfully and even the salpeter issue I think it only an issue now, because of the novelty. Give it time that people build up their stocks and it won't be an issue any longer I think.

The only part I can possibly agree with is the reward amount for fights involving the new ships. Clearly, to make quests or fighting new MoBs which require the use of the new ships the rewards have to match whatever are the costs (shooting the cannons and repairing the ship after the fight) for the fight.

We were a group of 4:
2 operated the cannons, 1 cast spells at the enemy and 1 melee fighter for boarding.
The issue with salpeter isn't really the lack of availability. It is the crazy amount of time you have to spend on shopping (unless you are lucky and find 2 vendors that offer 999 salpeter, but that is really a rare exception).

Why increase the rewards and make things even more difficult to handle, instead of decreasing the amount of resources needed to operate a ship?

Perhaps it was intended as one of those gold sink I have heard many players ask for ages ?

It certainly is a good idea to have gold sinks, but these sinks should not influence normal gameplay. Not every player has billions of gold in his bank. I've been playing since UO release (with a break), and I own maybe a total of 8 million gold. And believe me, I know many long-time players who are much poorer than me.

I don't understand why the most fun content of this booster should only be available for the rich power-playing gold-hoarders (cynically put).

 

[popps]

This really isn't geared for solo play. Group benefits are extremely more rewarding. from 5 battles tonight my group of three worked very well. One piloted the ship while the other two got resources between battles (you can recall between ships) and fished for monger quests. I even recalled to my ship between battles to complete monger quests. We were all pretty busy the entire time.

And you do recover some resources as loot from the battle. not so much wood and ingots but we ended up with 60 wool and cotton which I just converted into 86 bolts of cloth.

As for handing over the pirate... you would do your best to have as full a party as possible... trust me its worth it.

Precisely my perception..........

This was intended not much for solo playing but for a TEAM WORK.

Using these new ships makes it way easier and more fun and that is how I think they were realy thought for and designed......

If players want to go against the intended design and solo these ships well, that is their problem, not the Designers'. That's at least my thinking.

What I could possibly humbly suggest to the Designers, to try meet the "soloist" players demands, is the addition of a new set of smaller ships still holding cannons and requiring repairs but with considerable less firepower than the new Large Galleons.

Ships which by far cannot meet the firepower and combat ability of the large galleons but which can more easily be soloed and repaired.

But it should be clear that the big battles will only be possible to be handled by the large galleons, not these new, smaller boats....

 

[Skrag]

gold sink

Epic failure.

A gold sink isn't a gold sink unless it removes gold from the economy completely. If you're paying gold to another player to purchase resources, it's not a gold sink at all.

This is MMO 101 stuff here. Also, neither Hawkeye nor anyone else is talking about using a ship solo in this thread except for you two.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

If players want to go against the intended design and solo these ships well, that is their problem, not the Designers'. That's at least my thinking.

Obviously you didn't read any of my posts thoroughly.

But whatever your opinion may be, I predict that if it remains the way it was designed, nobody will use boats for sea battles anymore 4 weeks from now.

 

[Skrag]

Obviously you didn't read any of my posts thoroughly.

But whatever your opinion may be, I predict that if it remains the way it was designed, nobody will use boats for sea battles anymore 4 weeks from now.

This is a more polite version of the exact same thing I said in my thread. Also we really need to have "Player-to-player transactions are never a gold sink!" permanently printed somewhere at the top of the forum.

 

[Gheed]

We were a group of 4, and another 3 people on the second ship. I didn't even count the repairs the second ship needed.

The resources we found on the pirate ship were so few compared to what we needed for the repairs that it isn't really worth mentioning.

Did you check in the cargo hold? You do recover some of your losses there as well. We ended up with more cloth as loot then what we used for repairs. A small consolation I know. Lets not forget the orc ship boasts a 40% increase in damage over the gargoyle ship. So that will reduce resource consumption per/fight when you get one of those. Overall we really had a good time. I thought it was much more creative than just plopping down more uber bosses for everyone to gank. It was little more laid back. We were all on speaker phone having a nice talk and enjoying the busy work.


I think it should be toned down a bit when the new wears off but I was very pleased for our first time out. When our pilot got the hang of getting around on the boat things went much faster.

Also consider selling your bigger rewards, when you get them. Just one will keep you in vendor purchased supplies for a long long time.

 

[popps]

Alchemists should make powder charges out of sulfur ash and saltpeter. That's it. One step. Smiths should make cannons and ammunition as they do.

Firing a cannon should consist of two steps. Loading and firing. Everything else is pointless clicking.

Loot rewards for ship combat should be an order of magnitude higher.

To this I agree.

Not overly fond of the idea of shoveling ingots into a cannon to repair it. I'd rather have them slowly wear out with time and just keep a few spare deeds around. I don't have to fool around with ingots at all, and blacksmiths do a steady business in cannons.

Let carpenters make "ship repair kits" or something like that, using wood, which are used near shore and can fully repair your ship. Saves me lugging wood/cloth around.

Way, way too much overhead as it is.

To this I disagree.

I think the new changes are a way, and I think a good way, to get the economy and usage of resources moving.

The battles are great fun, but they also drain resources.

This means the resources have to move.....

And if the resources move, the economy moves rather than stagnate.

This is good for the game as it brings a breath of fresh air to economy, it gets the ball rolling once again.

This is good design folks, at least as I see it.

It brings fun and gets the economy moving once again and gives to crafters stuff to do.

I am usually a Devs basher but this one time I have to say that to my opinion they got their Design right.

Perhaps there need to be some adjustment in the rewards and loot department but overall, I see many good things from this booster.

Fun, resources moving around again, stuff to do for crafters, TEAM work back into the game again.

Good, very good Devs. Keep up the good work guys.

 

[Aurelius]

Give it time that people build up their stocks and it won't be an issue any longer I think.

So, someone decides "I'll try this new expansion, pay for it and go off pirate hunting!" Then they have to spend a week gathering the pieces of stuff they need to even begin, sort out teams of people to man the ship or ships they will take, and head off to begin.

I can see a lot of problems here without any effort at all... it's a system that will maybe eventually reward people with a lot of time, knowledge and resources who are already playing UO, but is really unappealing to anyone else.

There needs to be a way for a more casual player to take part in what sounds like an exciting part of the game, ship to ship combat. That does NOT mean they should be able to leap in at the hardest and most complex parts of those encounters and do as well as the people who invest time, resources and effort in doing those, but as things stand the 'entrance fee' to start playing with the new content at all is stupidly high.

Everything else in UO you can develop into, through fighting smaller scale monsters you get the money and skills to progress to the higher end stuff, you improve your equipment and hone tactics, increase crafting skills and knowledge of the economy - but always, you can see right from the start you are making progress, and feel you are getting somewhere. Without any introductory level to ship combat, that isn't available, and when you are trying to market this as a superb new part of the game, that's a ball that should not have been dropped.

It has the look of being a system designed by veterans, for veterans, without remembering all the other folks who also play, and advertised as a reason to come play UO when for a total beginner, it's simply not available at all.

We can get round some of that (if the damn site would sell the expansion to everyone who wants to pay for it...) by people forming groups to bring along newer, less experienced or less wealthy players on pirate hunts - and being the community we are, that will to some extent happen. But there is still that basic fault in the design of the system that means a hell of a lot of players will not touch it because it's too complex, confusing or time and resource intensive to attract them.

 

[Skrag]

I don't really care if the crafting of my hypothetical wearing cannons and ship repair deeds use up MORE resources than the current system. I just don't want to deal with the logistics of lugging all that crap around.

Let us redeem commodity deeds in the ship's hold or something and I'm basically happy on that front. But yeah the overall cost of doing business is just WAY too much, and the crafting is way too complex.

 

[Mortagoth]

I havent got the expansion yet (No point till I've got a toon built up enough to make any use of it). But from what I've seen and read, the High Seas is a group/guild based expansion rather than solo play. In my view no-one should be powerful enough to take on a champ solo. Same with these, now it makes perfect sense to make these ships cost a ton in resources and I'm pleased it does. If you have a group/guild of 4 or 5 people then you dont have anything to worry about as the skills required to kit it out and repair is should be easy. Also any self respecting crafter will have a ton of wood and cloth spare, its the basis of what we make things out off.

These new ships again are not based on solo play, UO is a MMO afterall and not a one person game and as such UO:HS's plays on this.

Now alot of people are saying that newb players cant get in on the action.. My response is.. So? A Newb wouldnt go to a peerless or a champ on thier own (unless they are extreme brave.. or dumb) without alot of high end kit and high level of skills, so whats different here? Nothing should just be handed to newb players, it gives them something to work towards afterall and something to look forward to. In my view the costs of the ship, gunning it and manning it are spot on...

How apparently the sea based peerless/champs release some decent stuff so they on thier own makes it work while. Although maybe the pirate quests might be worth ramping up... unless there is some rare uber prizes that can be claimed?

Thats my view though I know I havent played it yet but I will soon

 

[Aurelius]

A Newb wouldnt go to a peerless or a champ on thier own (unless they are extreme brave.. or dumb) without alot of high end kit and high level of skills, so whats different here? Nothing should just be handed to newb players, it gives them something to work towards afterall and something to look forward to. In my view the costs of the ship, gunning it and manning it are spot on...

Nope - but they DO have things they can do regarding fighting monsters, making kit, raising money... so there is an introductory level to combat, casting, crafting, a way to become involved and learn those things, and to develop skills in an exciting or interesting environment.

There's no introductory level to ship fighting. It's a rich boy's toy. There should be a basic level for beginners to get involved with, so they can get addicted to it because it's fun.

 

[G.v.P]

I just solo'd a pirate, on my mage. My first time trying to solo one, but not my first pirate dance. Took less than 20 shots. Maybe a dozen or so shots. I already had wood and metal, saltpeter is extremely easy to get now, and really, the only hard part for me was soulstoning carpentry to my smith, then buying wool in order to make yarn. I mean, who makes yarn anymore? That was painful .

Everything was made fairly quickly, and I doubt it took that many hours. However, in pursuit of the pirate ship, which persisted to run away from me after I killed its crew, took probably an hour or so before the pirate ship AI stopped so I could shoot the ship then capture the pirate. Left me moderately damaged. Was using a garg ship.

Anyway, I really don't understand why people are complaining so hardcore about the booster. Perhaps it's a reflection of first time experience. I played Beta, so I know what's going on ... and I've played long enough to understand how (mostly) everything in the game works. And as for pirate hunting, well, it's best done by a crew. So you should divide all your figures by 10, then get 9 friends to help out!

 

[Skrag]

Yeah man, if you're a hardcore crafter and have thousands and thousands of resources just sitting around at all times that you're willing to throw away in pursuit of a 5k reward or something, it's totally viable.

rolleyes:

I have one account and no crafter mules, so I'm pretty much not allowed to play this expansion. I can't even buy the stuff I need, because all this crafting that's so easy? Nobody seems to be doing it. There's nothing for sale. If there's a vendor on Atlantic selling powder charges, I haven't found it yet.

 

[popps]

It certainly is a good idea to have gold sinks, but these sinks should not influence normal gameplay. Not every player has billions of gold in his bank.

From one of the posts, I gather that all in all a fight used up some 200k in resources plus time.

Considering a party of 4 sailors, it comes up like 50k each plus the whatever time needed divided by 4 (each team member doing 1/4).

Well, to have fun with a good sea battle it does not look like much of a cost for a single player (when it is split over a Team, that is), does it ?

 

[popps]

gold sink

Epic failure.

A gold sink isn't a gold sink unless it removes gold from the economy completely. If you're paying gold to another player to purchase resources, it's not a gold sink at all.

This is MMO 101 stuff here. Also, neither Hawkeye nor anyone else is talking about using a ship solo in this thread except for you two.

Player to player transactions maybe, but what about purchases from NPCs?

Who sells, for example, Salpeter which is used up in rather large quantities?

Also, several players actually buy iron ore from NPCs rather than mine it up......

Perhaps it would be a good idea to up the cost of salpeter from NPCs so we really have a good gold sink here ?

And if scripting is now to be seen as a thing of the past, perhaps we will see more resources bought from NPCs rather than harvested, thus being that gold sink we have been asking for a long time ?

 

[Skrag]

Four people with 50k gold worth of resources each and a few hours of prep time between them is crushingly onerous considering the rewards are virtually nil.

This booster will be as dead as training in the bone knight room by the middle of next month.

 

[KoolAidAddict]

To this I disagree.

The battles are great fun, but they also drain resources.

This means the resources have to move.....

And if the resources move, the economy moves rather than stagnate.

Almost everyone has, IMO, a wood chopper and cloth is readily available at npc's.
Granted it might "gold sink" some with having to buy the cloth, but hardly is it gonna "move" the economy by requiring the boat owner to recall to his home 75 times to repair ship with his own resources he can/will acquire by chop chop chopping!

What would a deed hurt if it already required the wood to be used to make it?

Further, if we "need" a gold sink, let them have boat makers sell these repair deeds for x amount of gold, thereby creating said gold sink?
Isnt the game supposed to be about fun and playing, not time consuming in resource gathering or lugging said resources to boat to repair it?

 

[popps]

A Newb wouldnt go to a peerless or a champ on thier own (unless they are extreme brave.. or dumb) without alot of high end kit and high level of skills, so whats different here? Nothing should just be handed to newb players, it gives them something to work towards afterall and something to look forward to. In my view the costs of the ship, gunning it and manning it are spot on...

Nope - but they DO have things they can do regarding fighting monsters, making kit, raising money... so there is an introductory level to combat, casting, crafting, a way to become involved and learn those things, and to develop skills in an exciting or interesting environment.

There's no introductory level to ship fighting. It's a rich boy's toy. There should be a basic level for beginners to get involved with, so they can get addicted to it because it's fun.

I disagree.

If a new player gets into a Guild usually, the older members of the guild do have already a stock of wealth/resources.

How can a new player help ?

Well, the crafting for the repairs have varying skill requirements with 85 in alchemy being the highest. Many parts, though, require a MUCH lower skill level.

So, a new member can STILL help contributing with those repairs and parts crafting which require a skill that they can handle, being new players.

Eventually, as they progress, their role in the fighting will get better.

Heck, they can even be at the steering wheel to manouvre the ship through Battle which does not require any in game skills.....

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Who really hoards 50,000 resources? Or 200,000?

I understand some people think the design is good, it is meant for team play (with this I fully agree), and it was made for veteran players.

My personal opinion is (as a vetern player who even has a fully developed crafter mule and 8 million in the bank) that even though I always was dedicated to sea content, ships and piracy, under the given circumstances I will not participate in sea battles anymore. I play maybe 2-3 hours a day, but I do not have the time to gather all those resources, neither have most members of our pirate guild. There are other things to do in UO than gathering gold and resources. I consider the resource gathering one of the most boring things in UO.

Maybe you guys are right, and this expansion is more targeted towards the veteran player with a lot of online-time. However, it would be a pity if it were so.

 

[Skrag]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to up the cost of salpeter from NPCs so we really have a good gold sink here?

Saltpeter is probably going to be a mining resource coming up. I have it in a PM from Cal. I don't know whether it's been said on the forums yet or not, but I'm sure he wouldn't have mentioned it if it were some sort of secret.

Leaving it vendor-only and raising the price would just murder this booster in the cradle. Just how much do you expect people to go through for their 5k reward or whatever?

Also, Hawkeye is the guy who has been running around lusting after and campaigning for a system like this since FOREVER. If even he is going "This sucks, I'm out!" then the system is HORRIBLY FLAWED.

 

[popps]

Yeah man, if you're a hardcore crafter and have thousands and thousands of resources just sitting around at all times that you're willing to throw away in pursuit of a 5k reward or something, it's totally viable.

rolleyes:

I have one account and no crafter mules, so I'm pretty much not allowed to play this expansion. I can't even buy the stuff I need, because all this crafting that's so easy? Nobody seems to be doing it. There's nothing for sale. If there's a vendor on Atlantic selling powder charges, I haven't found it yet.

May I suggest a solution ?

Team up with other players who have crafters, perhaps ?

You could do the harvesting for wood, iron ore and wool (needs no special skill level for them) while the crafters in the Team could make the items needed from repairs from the resources you harvested.

Team work is the key with this Booster.........

 

[Skrag]

May I suggest a solution ?

Team up with other players who have crafters, perhaps ?

You could do the harvesting for wood, iron ore and wool (needs no special skill level for them) while the crafters in the Team could make the items needed from repairs from the resources you harvested.

Team work is the key with this Booster.........

Then they can cram it. I'll consider my $15 the price of being gullible and skip the next booster. I'm not making this crap the center of my UO existence where I'm making new characters to chop wood to give to the new friends I made just so I could participate in the booster.

Also, I still have no idea whatsoever why you think grouping is the magical solution to everything. I don't care if it's 200,000 people all supplying 1gp worth of resources each. They still have to SPLIT THE REWARDS TOO.

 

[popps]

Four people with 50k gold worth of resources each and a few hours of prep time between them is crushingly onerous considering the rewards are virtually nil.

This booster will be as dead as training in the bone knight room by the middle of next month.

The real reward, as I see it, is the FUN received in the process.....

When I go to movies, theathers, a music concert, I get NOTHING that is tangible.

Yet, I spent money.

Nonetheless, the fun, entertainment I received makes the money spent as worth it even when I received nothing tangible in return. Because I got fun, entertainment....

Ship Battles are fun, THIS is the reward from the time and gold spent to do them.

That's how I see it.

 

[Skrag]

Oh boy here we go with the masochism again, just like the other thread, where someone thinks this booster is just so scrum-diddly-umptions fun that we should all be happy to cough up tens or hundreds of thousands of gold per battle to click CLEAN-CHARGE-LOAD-PRIME over and over.

In most games, fighting gets you loot!
In Soviet Ultima, loot gets you fighting!

 

[G.v.P]

Epic failure.

A gold sink isn't a gold sink unless it removes gold from the economy completely. If you're paying gold to another player to purchase resources, it's not a gold sink at all.

In the post you quoted, Popps was responding to MalagAste about his/her estimation of a 200k expense, which Popps referred to as a gold sink. MalagAste did not suggest any of his/her expenses went to another player. I'm not really sure what your basis of argument is supposed to be here, unless you're just trolling.

Anyway, gold sinks are, in general, not going to work in UO. The only way to reduce gold is to stop gold from spawning. As for those who don't read up on how to fight pirates, well, the cost of ignorance may be the loss of more in-game currency. Such is life. You learn from your mistakes, and hopefully, you perform better in the future.

I can see a lot of problems here without any effort at all... it's a system that will maybe eventually reward people with a lot of time, knowledge and resources who are already playing UO, but is really unappealing to anyone else.

That's what a guild is for. You connect with others who have less, more, or equal time, you take advantage of a fun opportunities, and hopefully, you take the time to learn the game you're playing from those whom are more experienced than you. And if your time limits you from guild interaction? Well, why are you even playing a MMORPG?

I don't really care if the crafting of my hypothetical wearing cannons and ship repair deeds use up MORE resources than the current system. I just don't want to deal with the logistics of lugging all that crap around.

Took me three beetle trips to gather 3,400 wood and 4,000 cloth prior to my solo trip. Not a very difficult process.

There's no introductory level to ship fighting. It's a rich boy's toy. There should be a basic level for beginners to get involved with, so they can get addicted to it because it's fun.

Like what ... killing mongbats on a rowboat?

 

[G.v.P]

I have one account and no crafter mules, so I'm pretty much not allowed to play this expansion. I can't even buy the stuff I need, because all this crafting that's so easy? Nobody seems to be doing it. There's nothing for sale. If there's a vendor on Atlantic selling powder charges, I haven't found it yet.

Get some friends. Atlantic is a fairly large shard, shouldn't be hard.

 

[popps]

Saltpeter is probably going to be a mining resource coming up. I have it in a PM from Cal. I don't know whether it's been said on the forums yet or not, but I'm sure he wouldn't have mentioned it if it were some sort of secret.

Leaving it vendor-only and raising the price would just murder this booster in the cradle. Just how much do you expect people to go through for their 5k reward or whatever?

The game needs gold sinks, we have a tremendous inflation due to too much gold stagnating into the game.

Removing salpeter as a NPC only good is wasting an opportunity to reduce gold in the game, given how important salpeter is with ship battles.

Personally, I think it would be a bad design choice to make it minable.
As in regards to the 5k reward, I think that the main reward is neither the gold nor the items from a battle victory but the FUN received in the process.

Also, Hawkeye is the guy who has been running around lusting after and campaigning for a system like this since FOREVER. If even he is going "This sucks, I'm out!" then the system is HORRIBLY FLAWED.

Still, that is merely 1 player's opinion about the booster. All players' opinions I think are as worthy with none being more worthy than any other.

I think the new ships can be run by a TEAM in a reasonably easy way that brings fun to the players.

If the current number of sailors is still not enough to make it a smooth process, then perhaps increasing them could be a solution ?

If 4 sailors still find it time consuming and hard to run these new ships try with 6 or more, with each member dealing with a specific task.

The more the people in the team the less things each of them will need to deal with.....

 

[popps]

Also, I still have no idea whatsoever why you think grouping is the magical solution to everything. I don't care if it's 200,000 people all supplying 1gp worth of resources each. They still have to SPLIT THE REWARDS TOO.

The real reward is NOT the gold or items received.

It is the FUN recived from the Battle. Gold or items is merely an added bonus.

As I said, when I go see a movie, or a theater play or listen to music at a concert I receive NOTHING than I can touch. Yet, I spend my money to attend them.

Why ? Because I receive fun and entertainment even if I cannot touch them.

That's at least how I see it.

 

[Skrag]

In the post you quoted, Popps was responding to MalagAste about his/her estimation of a 200k expense, which Popps referred to as a gold sink. MalagAste did not suggest any of his/her expenses went to another player. I'm not really sure what your basis of argument is supposed to be here, unless you're just trolling.

She said she used up 200k in resources. If she did ANYTHING besides go around to every city laboriously buying out every carpenter NPC in the game or whatever until she had spent 200k, then it's not a gold sink. I don't think she did that.

Anyway, gold sinks are, in general, not going to work in UO. The only way to reduce gold is to stop gold from spawning.

Lottery. Tickets cost 10k. Multiple tickets increase odds of winning. Half (or three-quarters, whatever) of the pot gets deleted, the remainder goes to the holder of the winning ticket. Bam, gold sink. A real one. There were lotteries as far back as ancient Rome, it's way less of a theme violation than robots and some of the other silly crap we've had.

And if your time limits you from guild interaction? Well, why are you even playing a MMORPG?

It's none of your business why he's playing it, and "But it's an MMORPG!" is the BS copout response of anyone who ever tried to defend a crappy overly-annoying MMO design decision.

Seriously, Hawkeye has been after a system like this for as long as UO has existed. If HE is turning his nose up at it, who the hell IS it for?

 

[Skrag]

Get some friends. Atlantic is a fairly large shard, shouldn't be hard.

I'd rather write the $15 off as a loss and just not buy anymore boosters. I'm not acquiring a whole new social circle just to click CLEAN-LOAD-PRIME and earn my tiny fraction of the 10k pot.

 

[Aurelius]

That's what a guild is for. You connect with others who have less, more, or equal time, you take advantage of a fun opportunities, and hopefully, you take the time to learn the game you're playing from those whom are more experienced than you. And if your time limits you from guild interaction? Well, why are you even playing a MMORPG?

Apart from the sheer rudeness of expecting that anyone must adopt your self-dictated rules about why they play any game...

I did say that the only way in to ship combat was for new players to rely on others helping them into it. But the product is being advertised and sold as a huge interesting new area of play for anyone who gets the expansion - and it isn't.

Like what ... killing mongbats on a rowboat?

Like smaller, cheaper boats that will only work for one or two battles, or team systems where you and some friends can 'hire' a smaller boat that can't cope with the big guys but can battle equally kitted out ships for small battles, or smaller boats in game with guaranteed repairs and reload/gunnery stores for one day of game play, or boats on certain facets that are cheaper and smaller but only available on that facet - maybe Tokuno being the 'training area' for ship combat.......

Try using imagination - you may find you like it...

 

[Skrag]

The game needs gold sinks, we have a tremendous inflation due to too much gold stagnating into the game.

Removing salpeter as a NPC only good is wasting an opportunity to reduce gold in the game, given how important salpeter is with ship battles.

Personally, I think it would be a bad design choice to make it minable.
As in regards to the 5k reward, I think that the main reward is neither the gold nor the items from a battle victory but the FUN received in the process.

The hilarious part is that you think making the ship system a giant money-sucking holocaust will remove gold from the economy, and not just make everyone stop using the ship system.

Oh man while we're at it why don't we add a dungeon full of monsters that suck gold out of your bank when you kill them? After everyone hunts those monsters for long enough, inflation will be a thing of the past! rolleyes:

I think the new ships can be run by a TEAM in a reasonably easy way that brings fun to the players.

This constant "TEAM" bleating has absolutely nothing to do with the resources-to-reward issue that's being discussed, and I refuse to even respond to it any longer.

"This costs 200k but rewards 5k!"
"Get 5 people, then it would cost 40k and reward 1k!"
"That doesn't actually help!"
"TEEEAAAAM!"
"Wha--"
"TEEEEEEAAAAAAAAMMMM!"

 

[G.v.P]

Lottery. Tickets cost 10k. Multiple tickets increase odds of winning. Half (or three-quarters, whatever) of the pot gets deleted, the remainder goes to the holder of the winning ticket. Bam, gold sink. A real one. There were lotteries as far back as ancient Rome, it's way less of a theme violation than robots and some of the other silly crap we've had.

Gambling wouldn't be a bad idea. Problem is that in real life, there aren't money trees. Gold is extremely easy to get via killing stuff and doing quests in UO. If you lose 20k in Las Vegas it isn't as easy to bounce back as losing 20k in UO, of course ... I guess you'd have to convert 20k USD to gold somehow to figure out what the stakes would be, hehe ;p. Could at least make a few gambling addicts .

But I think gambling in general is a fun concept, and something everyone would enjoy. The only gambling in UO right now that I can think of is the Sphynx, which may give you positive or negative buffs.

 

[Skrag]

Tickets may cost 10k, but you know people would buy a hundred of them wanting to win the pot. Make them 100k, whatever.

 

[G.v.P]

I'd rather write the $15 off as a loss and just not buy anymore boosters. I'm not acquiring a whole new social circle just to click CLEAN-LOAD-PRIME and earn my tiny fraction of the 10k pot.

Fair enough ... you don't have any friends who are crafters? I guess that's possible. From my experience, most PvP guilds have had at least one person who is a craftaholic.

Apart from the sheer rudeness of expecting that anyone must adopt your self-dictated rules about why they play any game...

lol I'm a dictator for explaining what an MMORPG is? wow ... I think everyone can agree a MMORPG is designed for group play. why would you play one to play single player? that's like getting a data plan on your cell phone and never using the Internet or texts ... or subscribing to cable or dsl and only watching the local news. I guess i'll take the title of dictator as a compliment, because everyone I know and value must be one too .

Try using imagination - you may find you like it...

I imagine you think noobs will want to buy temporary boats or be cast aside to Tokuno, away from other players. Just teach them, with an old boat, or a rowboat, or a big boat. What's so hard? Noobs learn quicker than you give them credit.

 

[Skrag]

Fair enough ... you don't have any friends who are crafters? I guess that's possible. From my experience, most PvP guilds have had at least one person who is a craftaholic.

Who I'm sure will love crapping away a few hundred thousand gold worth of resources on every battle just for the hell of it. My buddy has a crafting mule, but he doesn't have piles of resources just laying around waiting to be wasted so we can split up a 5k reward.

lol I'm a dictator for explaining what an MMORPG is? wow ... I think everyone can agree a MMORPG is designed for group play.

"This costs 200k but rewards 5k!"
"Get 5 people, then it would cost 40k and reward 1k!"
"That doesn't actually help!"
"TEEEAAAAM!"
"Wha--"
"TEEEEEEAAAAAAAAMMMM!"

Also, millions of people play MMO games with only very casual player interaction. If you can't understand it then fine, but ten years ago you needed a group in Everquest to level at all. Now you can level to max in WoW by yourself. Ten years ago Everquest boss raids could involve over a hundred people. Today WoW raids involve as few as ten.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Well, we can discuss back and forth with different perspectives. What remains is my personal impression which I posted here. And my impression is that the majority of players will not use the new ships for battles if the system remains as it is. Which would be a pity.

We sometimes are forgetting that those people who read and post on Stratics are mostly experienced veterans with lots of resources in their houses, who have all the mules, and have figured out how to do things most efficiently. Speaking of a gold-sink must sound like cynicism to a relatively new player with 10k in his bank box. The additions to UO in the past 3 years have been great, but the way UO is developing is favoring veterans only.

I would like new game content as basic as ships to be accessible to all players. I personally am trying to play UO non-veteran-like, but maybe I am an exception here.

Then again, I admit that probably 95% of the players are veterans anyway...

 

[Skrag]

Even if everyone had a billion gold in the bank, they wouldn't be willing to fart it away on a system that costs more than it rewards.

The idea that there can be a money-losing system in place and it WON'T die is sheer dead-ender fanboy delusion.

 

[G.v.P]

My buddy has a crafting mule, but he doesn't have piles of resources just laying around waiting to be wasted so we can split up a 5k reward.

It's a 10k reward -- if split in half, it would be 5k. Yes, the gold is pointless, I agree -- of course, the gold isn't why you'd capture a pirate.

There are items in the cargo hold that vary from cannon deeds to ammo to cannon supplies/tools ... there are rareish foods in some of the onboard crates ... and at the end, when you turn the pirate in, you get one of at least two different rewards for everyone in your group, aside from the gold. Still haven't seen the black leather yet though.

I think the above summary addresses your group loot concerns, assuming everyone in the group wants an Orc Ship, or the few rareish things you can collect. And these drops are just what I've discovered so far, not sure on the extensive list (I assume it isn't that extensive, given it's a booster).

Today WoW raids involve as few as ten.

It is sort of disheartening to think "as few as ten" is an exceptional day in UO, heh. No, I understand there is a lack of community in UO, and I solo things as often as I play group. But if all I did was solo, yes, personally I would choose to play Dragon Age instead, or a fun single player game.

 

[Skrag]

It's a 10k reward -- if split in half, it would be 5k. Yes, the gold is pointless, I agree -- of course, the gold isn't why you'd capture a pirate.

There are items in the cargo hold that vary from cannon deeds to ammo to cannon supplies/tools ... there are rareish foods in some of the onboard crates ... and at the end, when you turn the pirate in, you get one of at least two different rewards for everyone in your group, aside from the gold. Still haven't seen the black leather yet though.

Bunch of garbage. Rareish foods. Well let me just go broke chasing after that. But hey I'm sure that Orc Ship will be worth a lot of money a month from now when this system is curled up and dead.

It is sort of disheartening to think "as few as ten" is an exceptional day in UO, heh. No, I understand there is a lack of community in UO, and I solo things as often as I play group. But if all I did was solo, yes, personally I would choose to play Dragon Age instead, or a fun single player game.

And if I wanted to be forced to group, I'd go play some more WoW. "Make some friends, RICH ONES!" isn't a reasonable requirement to play an expansion.