Simple answer.... Money.
More complex answer: Look @ Blizzard's revenues, compare that to Broadsword. You will have your answer.
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WoW has introduced 'Legacy Servers'...Why Can't UO?!
- Thread starter Old Vet Back Again
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More complex answer: Look @ Blizzard's revenues, compare that to Broadsword. You will have your answer.
WoW has ~5.5 million subscriptions. The web says they pay $15 a month. So, a rough estimate is: $15 x 12 x 5,500,000 = $990,000,000 annual gross (They probably clear a bill with item/expansion/merch sales on top of subscriptions)
Blizzard also cares about WoW. They advertise WoW. WoW has media tie-ins, books, a movie, etc.
UO has an unknown number of players, but we'll use 50K because we can. These likely aren't actual players, mind you, but accounts with houses. So another very rough estimate is: $12.99 x 12 x 50,000 = $7,794,000 annual gross (lets give them $206k a year for the item shop to round it to $8M. FYI, these numbers don't take into account the 3-month cycle thing many people do...so, massive grain of salt.)
UO exists in spite of EA. UO has zero advertising footprint, only rarely getting mention on gaming sites - mainly as "Oh, wow, UO is still around? People play with graphics made in '97?! *snicker*" EA doesn't give a rat's ass about UO. EA disavows ownership of the game when called/emailed (or claims the game closed "years" ago). EA just greedily gobbles up all profits after operating expenses. UO has three tangentially related fiction books...though they were actually for UO2 and have been out of print for over a decade. Its likely that if UO ever dips a toe into the red, the plug will get immediately and ruthlessly yanked.
For all the pancakes we do here on Stratics about Mesanna (or the team in general) she wouldn't spend a chunk of her day sorting out account issues if she didn't care. She wouldn't respond to emails from players who publicly give her hell. We wouldn't have a PEC. Kyronix and Bleak also wouldn't meet people on TC1 (or their home shards) to check out bugged items/pets/characters if they didn't care.
BS just don't have the resources to pour into UO like virtually every other MMO on the planet does. So they aren't about have the two whole people who code stop what they're doing on the current production shards to remake, from scratch, a new "classic" shard because a few vocal, nostalgic (ex)players think its an awesome idea. It simply wouldn't be fair to the rest of the subscribers to put the game on hold while that rabbit hole is fruitlessly probed. And, no, BS isn't going to hire new people to do it.
Also, don't quote the number of players on X free shard because those numbers are self-reported, thus likely a complete fabrication.
Blizzard also cares about WoW. They advertise WoW. WoW has media tie-ins, books, a movie, etc.
UO has an unknown number of players, but we'll use 50K because we can. These likely aren't actual players, mind you, but accounts with houses. So another very rough estimate is: $12.99 x 12 x 50,000 = $7,794,000 annual gross (lets give them $206k a year for the item shop to round it to $8M. FYI, these numbers don't take into account the 3-month cycle thing many people do...so, massive grain of salt.)
UO exists in spite of EA. UO has zero advertising footprint, only rarely getting mention on gaming sites - mainly as "Oh, wow, UO is still around? People play with graphics made in '97?! *snicker*" EA doesn't give a rat's ass about UO. EA disavows ownership of the game when called/emailed (or claims the game closed "years" ago). EA just greedily gobbles up all profits after operating expenses. UO has three tangentially related fiction books...though they were actually for UO2 and have been out of print for over a decade. Its likely that if UO ever dips a toe into the red, the plug will get immediately and ruthlessly yanked.
For all the pancakes we do here on Stratics about Mesanna (or the team in general) she wouldn't spend a chunk of her day sorting out account issues if she didn't care. She wouldn't respond to emails from players who publicly give her hell. We wouldn't have a PEC. Kyronix and Bleak also wouldn't meet people on TC1 (or their home shards) to check out bugged items/pets/characters if they didn't care.
BS just don't have the resources to pour into UO like virtually every other MMO on the planet does. So they aren't about have the two whole people who code stop what they're doing on the current production shards to remake, from scratch, a new "classic" shard because a few vocal, nostalgic (ex)players think its an awesome idea. It simply wouldn't be fair to the rest of the subscribers to put the game on hold while that rabbit hole is fruitlessly probed. And, no, BS isn't going to hire new people to do it.
Also, don't quote the number of players on X free shard because those numbers are self-reported, thus likely a complete fabrication.
EA didn't want UO... they wanted to continue to suck up the Ultima box games... single player RPG's they were getting... They only relented to letting Garriott start UO when he and Starr refused to leave...
Thankfully they did that... when it was a "hit" EA tried to micromanage it... they had no clue what it was why people cared or anything else... all they wanted was more stuff to put on the shelf... when it wasn't generating like they thought it should they moved it out of where it was to CA... Where they crippled it further by firing staff that they shouldn't have... proposing impossible deadlines and crippling it further... releasing 1/2 done content and wondering why it wasn't instantly successful... meanwhile other companies were tweaking the base of the game and drawing away the playerbase more with pretty pictures and more modern stuff... and hand holding.
EA then decided to throw UO to the east coast... and crippled the game more since well those people who were uprooted from TX to CA were now to be uprooted again to the east?? How many times would you uproot your family for a low end job???
We are lucky it's survived this long... It was then given to Broadsword... which is where we are now...
UO is still the red headed stepchild of Garriott and Long... probably always will be. Doubt it will get anywhere even with Endless Journey... with the level of advertising and all of that... Doubt EJ will have much effect except on making cheating cheaper.
What baffles my mind is that there is still some profit to be made by these bots ... makes you wonder just who is buying all this crap to make it worth the while to spam bot selling criers in Haven and to litter all of the gates and luna with books... daily...
Thankfully they did that... when it was a "hit" EA tried to micromanage it... they had no clue what it was why people cared or anything else... all they wanted was more stuff to put on the shelf... when it wasn't generating like they thought it should they moved it out of where it was to CA... Where they crippled it further by firing staff that they shouldn't have... proposing impossible deadlines and crippling it further... releasing 1/2 done content and wondering why it wasn't instantly successful... meanwhile other companies were tweaking the base of the game and drawing away the playerbase more with pretty pictures and more modern stuff... and hand holding.
EA then decided to throw UO to the east coast... and crippled the game more since well those people who were uprooted from TX to CA were now to be uprooted again to the east?? How many times would you uproot your family for a low end job???
We are lucky it's survived this long... It was then given to Broadsword... which is where we are now...
UO is still the red headed stepchild of Garriott and Long... probably always will be. Doubt it will get anywhere even with Endless Journey... with the level of advertising and all of that... Doubt EJ will have much effect except on making cheating cheaper.
What baffles my mind is that there is still some profit to be made by these bots ... makes you wonder just who is buying all this crap to make it worth the while to spam bot selling criers in Haven and to litter all of the gates and luna with books... daily...
THEY CAN....alas they wont .. they woudlnt dare ....
HELL EVERYONE WOULD LEAVE every smaller shard to play the new Vanilla one... so we left with 26 totally dead shards- except the 25 or so folks that own every castle/luna shop on each of those quiet shards....the rest would quit them .....Leaving 2 viable play shards ... new Vanilla and ATL....even 1/2 folks on ATL would prob leave Atlantic to try LIVE the good olde days again!!!
love the idea its just not gonna happen because of the above
HELL EVERYONE WOULD LEAVE every smaller shard to play the new Vanilla one... so we left with 26 totally dead shards- except the 25 or so folks that own every castle/luna shop on each of those quiet shards....the rest would quit them .....Leaving 2 viable play shards ... new Vanilla and ATL....even 1/2 folks on ATL would prob leave Atlantic to try LIVE the good olde days again!!!
love the idea its just not gonna happen because of the above
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I think a lot of people have a great affection for their smaller shards, I don't think many of them would move unless their own shard was closing down and even then some would rather quit than move. I wouldn't want to play anywhere other than Europa, I would only move to another shard if all of my guild decided to move and that is really unlikely...
They don't do it because it's not worth the money.
Someone up there suggested a gross of $8m per year on 50,000 accounts [and yes they said it was hypothetical] - does anyone have any idea of how many actual TOTAL housing spots there are per server?
There are 27 shards, with a number of housing locations per shard. So that would be a fair starting point for a max number of subscribers.
As to active players if we go for 100 per shard thats only 2700!
There are 27 shards, with a number of housing locations per shard. So that would be a fair starting point for a max number of subscribers.
As to active players if we go for 100 per shard thats only 2700!
would have to judge it by a specific size of house, otherwise it would be impossible to tell. I'm guessing if you did 7x7 it would be a few thousand per shard. Of course back in the day a lot of people just didn't have a house, or lived out of a guildhouse etc.
mmm u cropped the bit bout the 25 players that own all the castles and luna shops....on each of the smaller shards oh yes they would stay....
hey whatever...its my opinion....maybe not yours...that why we have stratics to voice our own!! ....ksara!
Very very few people would leave prodo shards for a "classic shard". If they wanted to play a classic shard they would be playing one. The only people that would potentially play a classic shard (outside of those who would make a character and play for a week as a novelty then return to their regular UO lives) are people who currently play free shards and perhaps a small handful of pvpers. There would be nothing to do for anyone else.
To me, a "classic" server is T2A release - def pre-Tram. But that would mean juggling skills/stats, no custom housing, making sure you lock your house (thieves), no scrolls of any kind except Magery. No necro, bushido, chiv, mysticism or any of that.
I don't want it - even tho I started with T2A. Nope. Not me ... I'll keep my memories, though.
I don't want it - even tho I started with T2A. Nope. Not me ... I'll keep my memories, though.
Ngh, sure sounds lovely...
I'm sure most people longing for classic shards in UO actually miss the pvp ruleset, itemization and combat mechanics of old. I can't imagine anyone missing the world of old as such in and of itself. Some pvp'ers want skill based combat, not item based. And some pvp'ers miss having legit victims to grief.
Besides and beyond itemization and rule set, it is extremely difficult to imagine what in Classic UO is being longed. It's not like T2A era of UO was some incredible celebration of top notch world design, lol. I can't imagine there being many people who'd miss (pre-tram) Felucca like classic WoW players miss Old school 2005 Azeroth. Latter being, almost undeniably, an absolutely impressive feat of world crafting that can easily draw you in even today. I can't imagine most people wishing they could return to a world where 1998 version of Felucca+Delucia is all you have. Classic shard longing UO players miss the ruleset, not the world of old. WoW players on the other hand are for sure missing the world itself just as well.
Over time, rule-wise, Siege Perilous has turned into this weird ass hybrid between new and old. Might have been interesting if OSI had simply kept AoS - era gear, landmasses, artifacts, itemization out of the loot tables of that shard entirely. Just GM crafted weapons and a sandbox for pvp.
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whatever..like i said ...my opinion your welcome to your own
er if it was a classic server it would be using the CC...lordy...i hate the EC too...
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Nah, the item id wands and staves did the same thing@Flagg
Agree on your remarks. Just think, though ... a classic ruleset would require Item ID as a viable skill since some attributes were hidden to those without it. That would make any weapon/armor crafter valuable as someone who could unlock the mysteries!
Well, I think what most people miss aside from pvp was the player interaction that was in large part a result of the open pvp. That was unquestionably the real magic of early UO, we were all stuck in what was frankly a mess, but a unique and very fun mess that created a lot of quality bonds and great fun.
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I don't understand why some posters particularly Lady Storm and DotWarner feel the need to show up everytime this discussion does come up and be White Knights for the Dev team making up random excuses for them. The dev team can make their own decisions but to say it cannot be done because the code is gone or lack of funds is simply not true. Even if the code is gone the blueprints for any era of classic UO server are already out there and can be restored. You don't want it thats fine your entitled to your opinion but you don't need to keep posting the same nonsense hoping one day it might actually make it true. I don't want high sea's 2.0 but you don't see me or anyone else trying to take that for you so stop trying to take away our game.
The reason the WoW classic server is a massive undertaking is largely due to the research they are going to do to ensure they have the right patch and features of Vanilla which bugs to fix and which to leave as it makes or breaks the vanilla feel. Not to mention the game itself is massive compared to UO as original world zones and quests need to be restored which is nothing similar to UO.
More people would voice their opinion in support of UO classic realms if they had a platform but all we have is stratics which is a hole in the wall fansite no one has heard of.
The game has nothing to lose by trying out a classic realm and as for what is the true definition of classic? does it matter? Have an official poll with all the choices from Launch to Mondain's Legacy and do what wins let the players vote. We can't prove the notion ''if you build they will come'' unless you know it actually happens so we can prove it. So any era before Stygian Abyss if you build it they will come and if they don't then you got yourself a legitimate argument but until then you cant use that. At this point in time a classic shard would generate more excitement then any expansion could possibly hope to.
The reason the WoW classic server is a massive undertaking is largely due to the research they are going to do to ensure they have the right patch and features of Vanilla which bugs to fix and which to leave as it makes or breaks the vanilla feel. Not to mention the game itself is massive compared to UO as original world zones and quests need to be restored which is nothing similar to UO.
More people would voice their opinion in support of UO classic realms if they had a platform but all we have is stratics which is a hole in the wall fansite no one has heard of.
The game has nothing to lose by trying out a classic realm and as for what is the true definition of classic? does it matter? Have an official poll with all the choices from Launch to Mondain's Legacy and do what wins let the players vote. We can't prove the notion ''if you build they will come'' unless you know it actually happens so we can prove it. So any era before Stygian Abyss if you build it they will come and if they don't then you got yourself a legitimate argument but until then you cant use that. At this point in time a classic shard would generate more excitement then any expansion could possibly hope to.
What I find laughable is that UO has 50k subscribers. I find that extremely hard to believe given what I see when I log into the game on various shards.
Are there 50,000 houses in UO? How many houses can even fit on a shard it it was maxxed out?
Really I'd like to know...
And how many of those houses are owned by Mesanna/OSI?
Are there 50,000 houses in UO? How many houses can even fit on a shard it it was maxxed out?
Really I'd like to know...
And how many of those houses are owned by Mesanna/OSI?
Actually, yes, it has A LOT to lose. You know what the most important resource is? Time. Second most important? Money. Taking both of those to create a classic server that might flop could possibly put Broadsword out of business and close UO down.
While I am NOT a fan of what the game turned into, with the limited income they have there just seems to be too much risk to take a chance for a server like this. Especially since the community cannot come up with a specific time frame to go back to.
And no respectable game developer would ever take the code from someone who runs a private server because those are reverse engineered and can come with too many pitfalls. Also the technology has significantly improved since UO was released. You can't just take the old code and stick it on a new machine. It just doesn't work like that.
Uvtha your spot on.
The Stuck part was what made us all fight together as a Team.
Be it reds or thieves or the invasions the dev of that time threw at us... we had to fight as a team unit.
We made a lot of friends that way.
I think that is the reason outside PVP the people really miss about the early days.
To blame the dev or a publish for it is way off base.
We changed.
In '97 computer gaming was still a novel idea to the average family, it was rare for a single computer in a home unlike today where there can be a lot of devices to play on.
You guys should get this ... how many of your GF or wife's play ?
Too many of my friends from the past were given ultimatums of the game or them....
You know who won....
Starstrukk be thankful a mod has not seen your post... Dot and I and many others have been around the block in Stratics for al long time and UO plus many other games in our time.
The Dev is not always the main cause of grief. No one is perfect.
WE meaning the players who said it cant be done, know this from knowing the way EA works, past posts by Dracconi, and others of the Dev team.
WE read it and understood the difficulties of the task of even trying to get a publish of any major size is very time consuming.
The Dev team is small. It the past something like tackling a project as your asking for would have been possible if the main copy of the Notebook was in hand.
Its no joke that notebook was the key to what been asked for ages.
Unless any of the other copys were to surface then we can talk... but the main copy was destroyed by EA staff when the game moved to VA.
The Stuck part was what made us all fight together as a Team.
Be it reds or thieves or the invasions the dev of that time threw at us... we had to fight as a team unit.
We made a lot of friends that way.
I think that is the reason outside PVP the people really miss about the early days.
To blame the dev or a publish for it is way off base.
We changed.
In '97 computer gaming was still a novel idea to the average family, it was rare for a single computer in a home unlike today where there can be a lot of devices to play on.
You guys should get this ... how many of your GF or wife's play ?
Too many of my friends from the past were given ultimatums of the game or them....
You know who won....
Starstrukk be thankful a mod has not seen your post... Dot and I and many others have been around the block in Stratics for al long time and UO plus many other games in our time.
The Dev is not always the main cause of grief. No one is perfect.
WE meaning the players who said it cant be done, know this from knowing the way EA works, past posts by Dracconi, and others of the Dev team.
WE read it and understood the difficulties of the task of even trying to get a publish of any major size is very time consuming.
The Dev team is small. It the past something like tackling a project as your asking for would have been possible if the main copy of the Notebook was in hand.
Its no joke that notebook was the key to what been asked for ages.
Unless any of the other copys were to surface then we can talk... but the main copy was destroyed by EA staff when the game moved to VA.
They know because it's common logic... they know because they have been here for ages... Dot has been here 20 years...
Many have been here never having left for AGES they know what's going on because they have interacted with the team and spent time trying to understand... they have heard people like the OP ask for this stuff year after year after year after year... you think the orignal OP is the only one to bring up this "bright" idea??? No this comes up every few months like a weed...
It won't fix UO.
I needed a good laugh today!
Me. Making excuses for the devs. You're clearly new here. I am neither an apologist, nor pom-pom waiver.
Anyone who's been on Stratics for a while knows I can be one of the dev's most vocal critics. When they do something dumb, I tell them. But I'm also willing to give them kudos when they do something right, or when they ask for input and then actually take it into account during decision making.
The decision has been made, nearly ten years ago. The answer hasn't changed. The devs have said that a classic shard isn't going to happen.
How many more will it take to sink through thick skulls?
Code: The code for the pre-Trammel days is gone. Deal with it. No amount of verbal acrobatics can outmaneuver that simple fact. Free shards have absolutely no bearing on this fact either, as they don't run UO server code.
Time: It would take a ridiculous amount of time to recode and properly test a new version of "classic" UO. But since the devs would have to start from virtual scratch, chances are it would inevitably vary from whatever notion "classic" happens to be today. It would also take years. Bleak, being the only engineer, has no time to for that.
Money: If UO is making ~8mil a year (which IS COMPLETE SPECULATION), I'd be surprised. EA holds the purse strings, not BS. EA doesn't spend money on things it doesn't believe it can recoup 100x more on. The "If you build it, they will come..." argument is a complete nonstarter.
"Your" game died May 4th, 2000. You really should have moved past the anger and bargaining stage by now.
So you admit it's an apples to orangutans comparison.
Then we can dispense with the spurious arguments based on whatever Blizzard doing with their MMO that grosses them a billion dollars a year. Thank you.
Nice straw man with a soupçon of ad hominem. Classic trolling.
You can look forward to another round of "No. Stop asking." when BS gets around to releasing the official UO forums.
As has been mentioned, ad nauseam:
UO. Does. Not. Have. The. Resources. To. Even. Attempt. This.
EA. Is. Not. Going. To. Pour. Money. Into. UO. Based. On. PURE. Speculation.
Your alternative facts don't play well with objective reality. Felucca became a ghost facet the day Trammel dropped. PKs, which is really what classic sharders really seem to want to be, had to adapt to consensual PvP. Nobody is going to que up to be sheep.
Unless your last name is Conway, you can't toss hyperbole, supposition or baseless speculation around masquerading as fact. You won't be taken seriously and you will get called out on it.
I don't always agree with Dot ... but lady kudos for the Truth. Your account of it is spot on.
I started on stratics roughly 20 years ago.. it might not show it but original account was lost way back so had to restart.
I started on stratics roughly 20 years ago.. it might not show it but original account was lost way back so had to restart.
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Anyone that thinks @Dot_Warner is a pom-pom waver for the Devs clearly hasn't been reading her posts, Dot often gives the Devs a hard time, but very often she is right.
50,000 subscribers is so much lulz it hurts. Is there a doctor on these forums? I think I have split my sides laughing
They can’t recreate good classic servers, not literally..but in theory. There’s too many eras that people love. That’s why free shards can be successful. They can cater to specific needs. There’s no specific ‘era’ that people prefer over the next. There may be a compromised position, but I doubt it. I personally fell in love with UO:Ren, but don’t enjoy that type of play anymore. Maybe a more modernized version. My favorite era was right after AOS launch. It was a highly competitive pvp era, many many different templates. Toggling specials with Magery, no Tactics requirements opened HUGE options. Pvp today is more “balanced” today to a certain extent, it’s just a hugely boring Meta tbh. If the built a custom pre-aos ‘style’ type server, with AOS Properties, smaller lands(no fel/tram mirror) that was a lazy RG solution to PKs, more risk vs reward. With an updated insurance, bounty system. I’d be in...but it will never happen. They can’t keep current osi clean of bugs, or fix the balance between templates..so I highly doubt anyone would take on reigns of a classic experience regardless of era.
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Might be 50k accounts...more like 7500 to 10k subscribers. (if that)50,000 subscribers is so much lulz it hurts. Is there a doctor on these forums? I think I have split my sides laughing
I stopped reading your dribble after this line. I can't keep letting you spread misinformation like this.
Code: The code for the pre-Trammel days is gone. Deal with it. No amount of verbal acrobatics can outmaneuver that simple fact. Free shards have absolutely no bearing on this fact either, as they don't run UO server code.
Tell me Dot Warner, what exactly do you think a UO server does and is responsible for?
On that same note. Can you explain to me, in your owns words, what you think the client is responsible for and how it interacts with its respective server?
You're gonna need to Google this one and brush up as it's painfully obvious you are completely oblivious.
Ahhh back into the I have been around 20 years and am more enlightened than anyone else........ Cough no we are not just means some of us have been around for 20 years and think we are more special because of it. Actually quite a few of us have been around since the start, just most of us don't try and rub everyone else's nose in it every chance we get.
Others have made the point that creating a custom rules shard is impractical at best. We've been told by multiple dev team members (most notably Draconi) that the old code is gone and was not kept, and he's also described the poor state the game's documentation was in when he was on the team. (I note that WoW is a younger game and, based on what I've seen of the game and its team, way better documented and has access to historical information about itself that we only can dream of.)
To say they "could" do it is pointless. They "could," given an unlimited amount of time and money and personnel, code in anything they wanted, including a different rules set on every shard. They also "could" fix some pretty basic bugs that we'll never, ever see fixed. (Don't open books in the EC; don't go to EM events in the CC except under rare conditions, and then don't go to EM events in the EC; etc.)
So in the bulk of this post I'm going to focus on why this is a bad, bad idea even if it were possible. The long and the short of it is that the assertions the proponents make are flawed at best and demonstrably false at worst.
Like all custom rules shards proposals, this one at some point devolved into a pre-Trammel thread. Such threads usually begin by suggesting pre-AOS as the rule set to use, this one had a slight variation in that it used pre-Publish 16, then eventually the true intent becomes clear: pre-Trammel or bust!
The rather bizarre and unsupportable premise of such threads is that the pre-Trammel days were more successful, and were so on the basis of being pre-Trammel, and that bringing in a custom rules shard would emulate that success.
The proponents forget what should be obvious: That there was way more limited competition in the pre-Trammel days, that most players left Fel behind when Trammel was created (because few wanted the Fel lifestyle), and that UO's competition that was successful was way less Fel-like than UO ever was.
If the premise of these custom rules thread was true, the following list of things also would be true. But, as you're about to see, they are not.
Publish 16 never would have happened. Posts from the dev team at the time said that Publish happened because most people had left Felucca for Trammel and there was a need to balance out server loads for a greater degree. If Trammel hadn't been a success, most people never would've left, and Publish 16 never would have happened.
But it did happen.
(Same for the Dungeon Khaldun a little bit earlier -- they were creating content for Fel as a lure because most people didn't want the lifestyle that place promoted.)
Let's go back further: Trammel never would have been created, because the discontent created by Fel never would have existed and thus there never would have been a need for it.
But it was. (Then see also above.)
People wanted to just play, not be stolen from, killed at the new player spawn point, called names, etc.
Richard Garriott's Memorable Moment from UO would not have consisted of a realization, caused by an incident of one player harming another, that he had to think hard about the rules of the world he'd created.
But it was.
Link: Memorable Moment – Ultima Online
Starr Long would not have indicated that the creation of Trammel was necessary when he spoke at the 15th anniversary anniversary party.
But he did. (Lost the link for this long ago.)
Siege and Mugen would be the most-populated shards in UO because people would like to play that way.
But they are not.
There never would have been a need to have the Siege housing gimmick as people would have played there without it, because they liked to play that way.
But there was.
The Fel Abyss spawns would be crowded with folks doing them. (The undead one in particular has a lot of cool content and good rewards.)
But they're not.
There wouldn't be posts on Stratics complaining that VvV was dead, because people would jump at the chance to PvP.
But there are those posts.
Games that came out post-UO that had more of a Fel type environment would be prospering, whereas games that came out post-UO that had more of a Tram type environment would be failing. Everquest would be dead, Shadowbane would be thriving. Pre-Tram UO free shards would have huge populationsm dwarfing the proper game itself.
But that's not the case. Shadowbane is dead. Darkfall has 3,344 likes on facebook;
Everquest has 66,431; UO has 27,757. I found a Facebook page for a free shard! Number of likes: 3,773. I found a Facebook page for another free shard, specifically dedicated to the Second Age era. Number of likes: 1,680.
Darkfall Online
EverQuest
Ultima Online
(No links for the free shards so as not to break the Stratics TOS.)
Note that the free shards don't have a lot of likes, way less than the "official" UO that supposedly needs rescuring by a new rules set.
Facebook likes aren't a perfect indicator of a game's popularity but it's a much better metric than individual posters here on Stratics. Consider how little time it takes to "like" and how much time and effort it takes to post. Facebook likes by definition are going to be a better measure of "average" players than Stratics posters are. Clearly we're going to get the extremes here on Stratics and therefore aren't going to be a representative sample. I've met way more people who just play than who post.
Regarding the "classic" free shards, I note that they're free (which for those who don't know, means they do not charge subscription fees, and that's usually a powerful incentive to give a product a whirl), offer additional content or services that aren't in the real game (I've seen cool customized pets, mass bannings of cheaters, and stellar customer service), and frankly aren't as populated as they're reported to be here.
Finally, Fel would be so popular on its own that threads like these wouldn't exist. We wouldn't need a custom rules shard (because, rest assured that is what this is -- the team would have to rebuild it from scratch to please a vocal minority). The old rules never would have left.
I could go on and on.
I miss the days of Petra, who would do her best to nip these threads in the bud, recognizing that the mere raising of the issue is toxic for the environment here.
I don't expect to post in this thread again because it'd be pointless. The false assertions have been made and I and others have done my best to counter them. Those of you who will continue to make your faith-based posts in the face of all reality.
Finally I note that this thread is great proof of something I pointed out in another thread: That Stratics posters are a way more intense bunch than the game's normal population and that we aren't a representative sample of anything. If "normal" UO players liked the pre-Tram rules we'd still have thm today and this tread wouldn't be here!
yet here we r again. sadly well be hre again. maybe next week or month.
To say they "could" do it is pointless. They "could," given an unlimited amount of time and money and personnel, code in anything they wanted, including a different rules set on every shard. They also "could" fix some pretty basic bugs that we'll never, ever see fixed. (Don't open books in the EC; don't go to EM events in the CC except under rare conditions, and then don't go to EM events in the EC; etc.)
So in the bulk of this post I'm going to focus on why this is a bad, bad idea even if it were possible. The long and the short of it is that the assertions the proponents make are flawed at best and demonstrably false at worst.
Like all custom rules shards proposals, this one at some point devolved into a pre-Trammel thread. Such threads usually begin by suggesting pre-AOS as the rule set to use, this one had a slight variation in that it used pre-Publish 16, then eventually the true intent becomes clear: pre-Trammel or bust!
The rather bizarre and unsupportable premise of such threads is that the pre-Trammel days were more successful, and were so on the basis of being pre-Trammel, and that bringing in a custom rules shard would emulate that success.
The proponents forget what should be obvious: That there was way more limited competition in the pre-Trammel days, that most players left Fel behind when Trammel was created (because few wanted the Fel lifestyle), and that UO's competition that was successful was way less Fel-like than UO ever was.
If the premise of these custom rules thread was true, the following list of things also would be true. But, as you're about to see, they are not.
Publish 16 never would have happened. Posts from the dev team at the time said that Publish happened because most people had left Felucca for Trammel and there was a need to balance out server loads for a greater degree. If Trammel hadn't been a success, most people never would've left, and Publish 16 never would have happened.
But it did happen.
(Same for the Dungeon Khaldun a little bit earlier -- they were creating content for Fel as a lure because most people didn't want the lifestyle that place promoted.)
Let's go back further: Trammel never would have been created, because the discontent created by Fel never would have existed and thus there never would have been a need for it.
But it was. (Then see also above.)
People wanted to just play, not be stolen from, killed at the new player spawn point, called names, etc.
Richard Garriott's Memorable Moment from UO would not have consisted of a realization, caused by an incident of one player harming another, that he had to think hard about the rules of the world he'd created.
But it was.
Link: Memorable Moment – Ultima Online
Starr Long would not have indicated that the creation of Trammel was necessary when he spoke at the 15th anniversary anniversary party.
But he did. (Lost the link for this long ago.)
Siege and Mugen would be the most-populated shards in UO because people would like to play that way.
But they are not.
There never would have been a need to have the Siege housing gimmick as people would have played there without it, because they liked to play that way.
But there was.
The Fel Abyss spawns would be crowded with folks doing them. (The undead one in particular has a lot of cool content and good rewards.)
But they're not.
There wouldn't be posts on Stratics complaining that VvV was dead, because people would jump at the chance to PvP.
But there are those posts.
Games that came out post-UO that had more of a Fel type environment would be prospering, whereas games that came out post-UO that had more of a Tram type environment would be failing. Everquest would be dead, Shadowbane would be thriving. Pre-Tram UO free shards would have huge populationsm dwarfing the proper game itself.
But that's not the case. Shadowbane is dead. Darkfall has 3,344 likes on facebook;
Everquest has 66,431; UO has 27,757. I found a Facebook page for a free shard! Number of likes: 3,773. I found a Facebook page for another free shard, specifically dedicated to the Second Age era. Number of likes: 1,680.
Darkfall Online
EverQuest
Ultima Online
(No links for the free shards so as not to break the Stratics TOS.)
Note that the free shards don't have a lot of likes, way less than the "official" UO that supposedly needs rescuring by a new rules set.
Facebook likes aren't a perfect indicator of a game's popularity but it's a much better metric than individual posters here on Stratics. Consider how little time it takes to "like" and how much time and effort it takes to post. Facebook likes by definition are going to be a better measure of "average" players than Stratics posters are. Clearly we're going to get the extremes here on Stratics and therefore aren't going to be a representative sample. I've met way more people who just play than who post.
Regarding the "classic" free shards, I note that they're free (which for those who don't know, means they do not charge subscription fees, and that's usually a powerful incentive to give a product a whirl), offer additional content or services that aren't in the real game (I've seen cool customized pets, mass bannings of cheaters, and stellar customer service), and frankly aren't as populated as they're reported to be here.
Finally, Fel would be so popular on its own that threads like these wouldn't exist. We wouldn't need a custom rules shard (because, rest assured that is what this is -- the team would have to rebuild it from scratch to please a vocal minority). The old rules never would have left.
I could go on and on.
I miss the days of Petra, who would do her best to nip these threads in the bud, recognizing that the mere raising of the issue is toxic for the environment here.
I don't expect to post in this thread again because it'd be pointless. The false assertions have been made and I and others have done my best to counter them. Those of you who will continue to make your faith-based posts in the face of all reality.
Finally I note that this thread is great proof of something I pointed out in another thread: That Stratics posters are a way more intense bunch than the game's normal population and that we aren't a representative sample of anything. If "normal" UO players liked the pre-Tram rules we'd still have thm today and this tread wouldn't be here!
yet here we r again. sadly well be hre again. maybe next week or month.
A smug troll, adorable!
However, your smugness belies the blatant fact you are the one who doesn't know what you're on about.
But I'm bored, so I'll play along...
In the simplest of terms:
The UO servers hold 99.9% the game data (baring character profiles which are stored client side) including dynamic character and item positioning, as well as every system/process and how they all interact behind the scenes. Functionally, the server is a glorified database, but it is the game.
The client is a flashy GUI for users to access and manipulate that data. The only thing the client "stores" is static data; art files, text of various gumps, books, etc. But it neither stores nor process important game functions/data, that all happens server side. The client processes what the server sends it into something we consider, more or less, fun.
So, do you have another lame defection from the fact that EA has no copies of classic server code? I do so love the to set straw men aflame.
*Applauds* It seems your Google skills were able to successfully navigate you through the various responsibilities of the client vs server.
So lets address this whole, "the server code doesn't exist" nonsense.
First, whether the exact code verbatum from *insert any Pre-Tram era* exists or not doesn't matter.
You couldn't just copy and paste it and expect it to work anyway. No one ever claimed that.
Some set up is involved, that is a given.
Whether you use the exact code base from *insert any Pre-Tram era*, or today's code base, some tweaking is involved.
The problem are those who think the task is monumental and completely out of scope/budget, when realistically it is not.
Let's pick any arbitrary start point, how about *insert any Pre-Tram era*?
What code would you say doesn't exist?
What could you do in *insert any Pre-Tram era*, that you can't do now?
Is it movement? This code obviously exists as I can still move around the exact same way as in *insert any Pre-Tram era*.
How about housing? *checks house placement tool* Yup, I still have the option to place a Villa, a Tower, a Castle, etc. So we know this code exists.
What about Felucca? No major changes here. Just about everything I remember is the same. Anything else can easily be enabled/disabled (reds in town for example). Can you tell me what part of the server code is gone that governs what makes Felucca what it is?
PvP - Have there been any major changes to its core since *insert any era*? Magery is the exact same. Melee skills are exactly the same too. Flagging another player, murder counts, etc. are all the same. What part of the server code that handles this is gone exactly?
PvM - See above
Items - Don't see any fundamental differences here. Today, we can now see the numerical value of these variables and what they represented under the hood (vanquishing = 25% damage increase, supremely accurate = +25 tactics, silver = undead slayer, etc.).
Skills System - Anything major here? Seems to be roughly the same as it was in *insert any Pre-AoS era* here.
I'm sure there's lots more to list, but I can't think of anything fundamentally different about the two era's. The differences are cosmetic.
We'll leave out the more technical stuff (network code, db management code, account management code, etc.) as these don't dictate what is/isn't a classic shard.
So, to you and everyone else so vehemently opposed to a classic shard:
Why spread this misinformation like its gospel?
This attempt to stifle what could legitimately be a saving grace to the game is completely baffling.
The same crap has been parrot'd by the same group of uninformed people for as long as I've been on Stratics.
"The resources could be better spent elsewhere". Yeah, except they've tried everything under the sun for the last 17 years and yet, the game is barely a thing anymore.
Doesn't matter?????
Seriously???
People who want a "classic shard" what the whole kit and kaboodle... not just Fel the way it is now... no they want the old rules... they want the old weapons, the old armor... no bushido, Chivy, Necro etc... Just the old school stuff in the CC...
And anyone with half a brain cell can tell you that the code is now a spaghetti string of jumbled mess the likes of which would take YEARS to sort through and pluck out all the crap that was crammed into it and what you'd end up with would NOT PLAY. DEVs have stated this OVER AND OVER and OVER... but you just don't want to hear the truth... the old "code" of what was once there isn't around anymore... there is no record of it as it was tossed in the trash when they moved from TX to CA... A fact that has been stated over and over and over by the DEVs... I believe they blamed it on an intern... Trying to unravel that code now would be like trying to count all the stars in the heavens... Good luck with that.
At any rate it in no way exists and you can't just shut stuff off and have the game work... someone would have to pick through the code strings and remove things that aren't wanted and the code is a MESS hence Bleak stating they won't be doing anything major with the CC anymore. That coding is just too much of a mess...
Yeah that's great and all, but what does the classic client have to do with anything about anything?
Can you point out where the dev's have stated anything that you have typed?
Just so you know, you are one of those people who are uniformed, who parrot the same nonsense over and over who should be ignored in these matters.
Modifying code that already exists is MUCH easier than having to script it from scratch.
This is where your lack of technical knowledge prevents you from understanding any of this, and ultimately why you believe what you do.
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Did you know that we humans have invented these cool things called computers, which are great at tasks like this?
Combing through and organizing a messy codebase to make it manageable?
Google had nothing to do with it. Your pathetic attempts at ad hominem needs serious work.The differences between pre-Trammel and modern UO is far more than "cosmetic'." Which you'd know if your haughty 'tude was based on anything more than pure bull and a wish fulfilment fantasy.
Take your magery and melee skill drivel; all those skills have gone through numerous "tweaks" over the last 17 years. Magery was rejiggered with elemental damages, varrying casting times, sdi, etc. Melee skills were tied more closely to tactics and anatomy, given special moves, varrying weapon swing speeds, elemental weapons, new weapon properties, etc (you completely glossed over the massive, game-wide itemization changes AoS brought). Those aren't things that can simply be turned off. Multiple devs have said the UO codebase is like a spiderweb of illogically interdependent layers, put through a blender. Systems that shouldn't have any relation with one another do anyway because some past employee had a deadline, was tired, or just didn't care...thus they kludged it into "working."
So 17 years worth of kludgy changes, fixes, system rewrites, more fixes, expansion content, fixes to fix the fixes that were already fixed to consider, much of which is poorly documented...if at all. You can't simply wish it all away, nor can one engineer be tasked with undoing those 17 years because a few people feel nostalgic. Spoiler: There is no code fairy or AI out there to make it all work just so.
Seeiously now, the devs have said no. They've said server backups from that era nolonger exist. They've said they have neither the time, the resources, nor the inclination to pursue a "classic shard." That's not misinformation, it's cold hard fact.
The only uninformed one spreading misinformation here is YOU. All your self-righteous sound and fury truly signifies the utter nothing your argument is based on.
I love a good debate!
*tries to wrap mind around Dot as a
*
*tries to wrap mind around Dot as a
*Based on your post history with me -- I did not then, and still do not have a reason to believe that is true.
Yeah? Name some that I haven't already covered. Still waiting...
And all of it can be disabled, hidden, undone, etc.
Everything pre-AoS basically did physical damage (even spells), and additional checks for damage prevention happened with things like AR (AR+magic resist for spell damage).
Converting everything to deal physical damage only, while ignoring the rest, is likely trivial from a technical standpoint.
I've addressed items in my previous reply to you. My stance is that the underlying system for items, and item generation, is fundamentally the same. Are you arguing that this is not the case?
I've addressed the varying changes to magery, melee, etc. by mentioning that tweaking will need to happen (did you even read my post? Or were you getting too worked up and had to reply asap?)
Again, to those who aren't astute enough to understand the technical nature of a task such as modifying the current code-base to resemble something of a classic shard (or in your case, someone who is completely out of their depth in the subject matter), it will obviously seem daunting or impossible.
I'm here to tell you that you're wrong.
Yet, the only rebuttal I'm getting is "some dev's said something about the code along time ago, but I don't know who said exactly what. But it's true, I read it with my own eyes."
Then you go on to attempt to assert that you know what is, and isn't feasible with one engineer, and use this statement to bolster your argument? Does that style of arguing work with your friends and your spouse? How can you make such a claim with absolutely no technical knowledge of what the task actually requires? Have you ever coded a day in your life?
Also, your knowledge of fallacies isn't making your arguments anymore impressive. In fact, it's doing the opposite of what you are intending, when your arguments themselves are ripe with fallacies.
Must be a bad habit of yours.
lol
that's not nonsense it's what Draconi said years ago. sure he could be making it up but basedon the rest of this post, Draconi seems 2 know more than u and make up less than u.
actually if u want code 2 work it kinda has 2b exact. wow there's a lot of garbage in your post 2 unpack! i'll do my best with some.
wow u either didn't play back then or didn't read the official boards when they used 2 exist. lol. damage worked a lot different. there were 4 example 2 different damage tables, 1 for pvm, 1 4 pvp. also no elemental damage types the same way we have now. (fire resist, physical resist, etc.). there was armor rating and there was spell resist skill.
spell resist is 1 great example of how skills have changed. it used 2 resist spell damage/lessen it. it was armor 4 spells. now with elemental armor typess, since aos, it blocks non direct damage sppels & gives u minimum resists of 40 at GM level. magery hasn't changed?! lol. let's take Mind Blast. now it's a crappy cold damage spell but it used 2 base damage off of the difference between your highest stat and ur lowest stat. how about armor? changed a lot since aos. different types of resist to go with different types of damage, no more AR but rather a set of resists, properties on armor.
oh, anyone remember when jewelry didn't have properties regularly? once in awhile u could find an invis ring or something, but propertied jewelry wasn't a regular, expected thing.
oh, u r also wrong on the "under the hood" damage of weapons vs what u see on the weapon. magic looted weapons added a set amount 2 damage, GM weapons added a percentage. past a certain level, the math worked out in favor of magic, underneateh that worked out in favor of GM. then of course runic weapons came in and that made any magic weapon short of vanquishing a hard sell.
the 25%/35% thing that u see wasn't them showing us what was under the hood, it was an attempt to squeeze old items into the new mechanisms. brand new mechanisms, brand new code.
everything any team member has said and everything i've seen and experienced says exact opposite. lol. u r making stuff up. didn't even play pre-aos did u.
Whether or not you believe it is immaterial to the fact your assumption comes directly from your ass.
I gave you multiple examples of things that aren't the same as they were, you just like to minimize things which you can't easily deflect. Entire systems have been rewritten and added in the last 17 years. Go read the last 98+ publish logs.
Everything can simply be hidden because you said so? Right. The backend of UO is just full of hidden switches to turn off features, because that's the foresight with which UO was created and has been maintained. You really should start a conversation with Bleak or Kyronix.
While I will concede that some things might be "trivial" to undo, at least in theory, that still doesn't mean its feasible with the resources at hand. Another fact you blithely ignore.
Item generation might be very similar to pre-2000, but again, that doesn't mean there's a simple bit of code to comment out. This is the realm of speculation though, neither of us can claim to have a concrete answer. Again, start a conversation with Bleak or Kyronix.
Again, no magic switches.
I'm going to believe the devs over an anonymous internet troll almost every time. Talking out your ass about how easy it would be to roll back 17 years just makes you sound ridiculous. Nothing that you've said has made me, or probably anyone else on here, believe you speak with any sort of authority on such matters.
Why don't you prove me wrong. Put your rhetoric to use and become the second UO engineer, specifically to create a classic shard. Since its so easy, we will expect it within two publish cycles of your hire date.
Both Draconi and Wilki came on here and said that no server backups exist from before the move from Redwood Shores. They felt forced to after the inept Calvin Crowner callously strung classic sharders along for a year. Mesanna concurred with the old devs. More recently, Jeff Skalski, the flash-in-the-pan franchise producer, briefly reignited the classic shard debate with a few idiotic comments before quickly walking them back.
The current team has repeatedly said the same things when asked at shard M&Gs and two anniversary parties.
But then they're probably all filthy liars, right?
I don't have to assert that it isn't feasible when the devs have stated it over and over themselves. In public. With witnesses. You really should do a modicum of research on what the devs have said.
Again, your assumptive ad hominem attacks only underscore the weakness of your argument.
Deflective sophistry really isn't your strong suit. Troll harder.
Free shard "owners":
- Can devote as much time/resources as they want to suit their vision
- Have no deadlines, bosses or corporate entities to appease
- Have modern tools (or rather, are forced to contend with fewer legacy tools)
- Have a modern backend running their shard(s) (no, free shards do not use EA-derived server code)
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This debate has been sliding towards personal bashes for a while. If everyone could refrain from including attacks against other posters in their responses that would be greatly appreciated.
The thread has also been cleaned up a little.
The thread has also been cleaned up a little.
Pfft I would already received a dozen warnings and ban if I had posted what others have.
I'm not even gonna bother wasting my time with this. Don't talk to me.
Now we're getting somewhere...
The only difference is, I believe everything that needs to be undone is indeed trivial in the end, albeit tedious. However, tedious does not mean difficult, and it certainly is not synonymous with impossible.
Go ahead and provide some examples of things, systems, features, etc. that would not be trivial to undo.
After you think about it for a while and finally come to the realization that there was actually nothing noteworthy as far major system changes post-AoS (just a bunch of balance tweaks and bug fixes), maybe you'll see where I'm coming from.
Also, keep in mind a player, on his own, was able to 100% reverse engineer a post-AoS server by simply cherry-picking features that were a necessity or desired (movement, combat, housing, items, trading, etc..) with current tools that have been on the market for over 15 years. While that specific type of software is very expensive, it would not surprise me if Broadsword is already using it, or something similar to aid in their own navigation and modification of the server code.
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