Why I love UO and why I want it to grow - how it could be done

[Uvtha]

@ You would have to rebuild it from scratch to be able to create pretty graphics: Look at World of Warcraft. They enhanced their engine incredibly. As much as I am bored of the gameplay, you can definitely do something with an old engine. Big difference: they started out in 3D. but there was a 3D client for UO... I am sure it would be a lot of work, no doubt, but it WOULD BE WORTH IT!

Of course it's a way bigger step from a 2D engine to a 3D engine, but once this is done future enhancements will be easier. it will be the groudnwork for a LOOONG UO life.

EA is clearly not interested in UO2, it failed twice. So why not go this way, enhance UO instead of risking UO2. Mythic knows the game in and out now. So even if they would have to rebuild a lot of systems, they would be able to do it, I am sure!

WOW didn't upgrade or replace their graphics engine. They have upped the textures or models, but it's the same engine. UO has never had an actual 3d engine running it. It has always been sprites, KR included. To upgrade to a 3d engine would basically require making a whole new game. I really think that you are drastically underestimating the amount of work that would be required. Because not only would they have to fundimentally change the way the game works, they would also have to completely rebuild and redesign the world. That could take years and millions of dollars.

I know you think "it would be worth it" but there is no evidence in the market to lead one to believe so. Sandbox mmos are virtually non existent, let alone ones with subscriptions. EVE stands alone. So it would all be for a game that has very few subscribers in a genere that is not that popular. To do what you ask would be foolish.

I also find it interesting that you think that a sequel is not something EA would be interested in (despite the fact that they are in the process of releasing a new mmoish ultima) because of two failed sequels, but a new client IS something that they would do, despite two failed new clients, and a third that the majority of players do not use.

I think the bottom line is that you are going to have to accept that if you want a modern world with modern graphics the only chance of that happening is with a new game.

UO is a great game, you will get no argument from me, but it is what it is. People just need to accept that. Can it grow? Absolutely. Can it grow with a 14 dollar monthly sub rate and very limited content additions? Probably not much. Will it ever be something to rival WOW? No. That will never happen. But that in my opinion is a good thing.

 

[Madrid]

Corvyn

You missed the thread last week "Where is everyone?" , "What happened to UO?", "Where did all the UO players go?". I get a kick out of those threads...

People for years have vehemently opposed modernizing the UO client and doing something with the graphics to get it looking good so it can attract new players. Well guess where all those against modernizing the graphics are now? They sure as **** ain't playing Ultima Online. There off playing some other game with nice graphics.

Your spot on about your analysis of UO. Ultima Online continues to suffer from attrition. It's dieing a slow death. Any business or service that can't draw in new customers to replace the ones that leave or move on will eventually become insolvent.

Great content is what's kept UO alive and continues to keep UO alive. The CC client is what's holding it back.

It may be a pipe dream but I don't want to see a UO2. I don't want a new UO.

What I want is an Ultima Online like we have today except with some kickass graphics or a nice client e.g Titan Quest or Sui Generis.

The chances of that ever happening are slim to none but that doesn't stop me from wanting it.

 

[MalagAste]

Umm, based on what? That's a bold statement and at the same time shows you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about. Good stuff.

It's not possible to make what we have into a game that looks or acts like any of the current 3d games on the market. Simply put UO is not designed that way. It's not possible.

I have it on good authority that it's just NOT possible because of the way it was designed to begin with. Simply put you would not be able to just plug what we have into a new up to date engine. Because it isn't written in the same style format would be jibberish. So in order to build UO into a 3d model they would have to completely rebuild the entire game with all new graphics, all new everything. UO is also a TILE based game ..... most newer games are not.

Just saying it may be a bold statement but it's the truth.

 

[Corvyn]

Corvyn

You missed the thread last week "Where is everyone?" , "What happened to UO?", "Where did all the UO players go?". I get a kick out of those threads...

People for years have vehemently opposed modernizing the UO client and doing something with the graphics to get it looking good so it can attract new players. Well guess where all those against modernizing the graphics are now? They sure as **** ain't playing Ultima Online. There off playing some other game with nice graphics.

Your spot on about your analysis of UO. Ultima Online continues to suffer from attrition. It's dieing a slow death. Any business or service that can't draw in new customers to replace the ones that leave or move on will eventually become insolvent.

Great content is what's kept UO alive and continues to keep UO alive. The CC client is what's holding it back.

It may be a pipe dream but I don't want to see a UO2. I don't want a new UO.

What I want is an Ultima Online like we have today except with some kickass graphics or a nice client e.g Titan Quest or Sui Generis.

The chances of that ever happening are slim to none but that doesn't stop me from wanting it.

The only way I would WANT a UO2 would be if it would be done by the people who made UO. This is why I would not want EA to make UO2, NOTHING they did over the last years, heck since they exist would indicate that they know how to handle a franchise well (see: Westwood with C&C, Kyrandia, Lands of Lore - Origin with Ultima, Wing Commander, System Shock - and the newest victim will be Bioware and their great games, no doubt). They would put wrong people in charge, but I repeat myself here. I am however really looking forward to Shroud of the Avatar. It's the only thing that could be something we are looking for.

But then again there is UO which is only missing what we are talking about here for quite some posts... but if the community doesn't want it how the heck should they ever succeed with it? UO might be one of the few games (franchises) that EA didn't destroy on their own... oh no wait, there is Ultima Forever... action filled blahblah .. I can't even.. whatever...

Corvyn

You missed the thread last week "Where is everyone?" , "What happened to UO?", "Where did all the UO players go?". I get a kick out of those threads...

...

People for years have vehemently opposed modernizing the UO client and doing something with the graphics to get it looking good so it can attract new players.

I am only back for a few days now so I missed that. But it sounds like someone complaining about a toothache and at the same time refusing the doctor to do something about it, because he/she loves her tooth they way it is.

 

[Thrakkar]

How many old players will be beyond pissed if they take away the Classic Client and its look and feel?

If pulled off correctly, new players would outweight the loss of old ones. They would either adapt or move on.

But pulling it off correctly would mean, to spend some serious money. Honestly I doubt that will happen with a dinosaur like UO...

UO had it's chance. More than once. But it's still carrying the old millstone (a.k.a. the classic client) around it's neck.

 

[Thrakkar]

The only way I would WANT a UO2 would be if it would be done by the people who made UO.

I think, you would regret it, if it really would happen.

Times change.
Customers/gamers change.
But most developers stick to their old values and beliefs.

Just because they pulled off one gaming milestone doesn't mean, they can do it again. Lot's of these "godly" developers failed miserably already...

It's of no point, if a small niche likes the game. It has to make money to keep it going.

 

[Gospel]

It's not possible to make what we have into a game that looks or acts like any of the current 3d games on the market. Simply put UO is not designed that way. It's not possible.

I have it on good authority that it's just NOT possible because of the way it was designed to begin with. Simply put you would not be able to just plug what we have into a new up to date engine. Because it isn't written in the same style format would be jibberish. So in order to build UO into a 3d model they would have to completely rebuild the entire game with all new graphics, all new everything. UO is also a TILE based game ..... most newer games are not.

Just saying it may be a bold statement but it's the truth.

It's actually not the truth, no matter how many times you say "simply put." You are obviously just repeating something you heard.

UO has already been made into a 3D game if you haven't heard. The 3D client and the 2D client worked side by side. Please don't tell me it's impossible. It just needs to be done right. If the graphics looked like Diablo 3 then problem solved.

If you're talking about making UO into a game like WoW, then yeah, not gonna happen. But nobody here is suggesting that, as it would be ridiculous. So you're either confused about what everyone is talking about, or you're just wrong.

 

[Corvyn]

I think, you would regret it, if it really would happen.

Times change.
Customers/gamers change.
But most developers stick to their old values and beliefs.

Just because they pulled off one gaming milestone doesn't mean, they can do it again. Lot's of these "godly" developers failed miserably already...

It's of no point, if a small niche likes the game. It has to make money to keep it going.

I would say key people of UO were Richard Garriott and Raph Koster. Garriott proved over and over that he is a brilliant game designer and Koster knows how to turn that vision into a true sandbox game, he was also responsible for the initial version of SWG. The whole point of this is that the gameplay still holds up and even surpasses today's standards. So no, I would definitely not regret it. What I regret is that companies try to repeat the success of WOW and we are in a vacuum with no progress whatsoever in the MMO landscape. But you would only have to look back to UO to get a great formula if you need one.

Richard Garriotts games are to this day standards other games live up to. U7 is the blueprint for Todd Howards games, he said it himself (Oblivion, Skyrim), Ultima in general was the blueprint for japanese RPGs (FF creator as source). UO started the MMO hype. All this in a 20 year time span, not talking about a fluke here. RG is a genius when it comes to game design and so far has only been held back by publishers.

So no, I would not regret it at all. In fact we will be able to but that theory to test with SOTA.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

As I previously stated, some people simply refuse to allow UO to be updated.

Personally, I'm keeping my UO accounts open until I see how SotA pans out. If it provides a better gameplay experience with better graphics, then I'll make the formal switch. Richard Garriott has stated in one of the interviews (with MMOItalia) that SotA is "in effect" UO2 (i.e. if he were making an actual game titled UO2, it would be the same thing as SotA just with Ultima involved in it).

The more time passes, the less optimistic I am about UO's ability to be updated. Between EA's effective dismissal attitude of the title and the mindset of the playerbase, I have to agree that attrition may be the best case scenario.

 

[hen]

What has Richard done since UO? U9, Tabula Rasa? what else?

 

[Tanivar]

.

UO had it's chance. More than once. But it's still carrying the old millstone (a.k.a. the classic client) around it's neck.

That 'old millstone' has kicked the rump of two earlier clients and has easily held off the EC even with Pinco's updates. Without Pinco's work it would have been 3 'updated', 'modern', 'far better', etc, etc new clients with their rumps kicked into the trash bin. You pixel fixated folks need to get a grip on reality and accept that no ones beat the CC yet.

 

[MalagAste]

It's actually not the truth, no matter how many times you say "simply put." You are obviously just repeating something you heard.

UO has already been made into a 3D game if you haven't heard. The 3D client and the 2D client worked side by side. Please don't tell me it's impossible. It just needs to be done right. If the graphics looked like Diablo 3 then problem solved.

If you're talking about making UO into a game like WoW, then yeah, not gonna happen. But nobody here is suggesting that, as it would be ridiculous. So you're either confused about what everyone is talking about, or you're just wrong.

Yes your right I am repeating something I heard..... straight from DEV's over and over again. It can not be done.

Along with tied hands.

Face it..... what we have to work with right now is all UO is going to have. Unless by some miracle no one could foretell but perhaps God himself .... we have a tiny dev team with ONE artist and that is all we will have.

 

[Gospel]

Yes your right I am repeating something I heard..... straight from DEV's over and over again. It can not be done.

Along with tied hands.

Face it..... what we have to work with right now is all UO is going to have. Unless by some miracle no one could foretell but perhaps God himself .... we have a tiny dev team with ONE artist and that is all we will have.

Oh BS. Did you even read my post. It's already been done before. I don't see a need to continue this, it's like you're saying the sky is green. Think before you post, great rule to live by.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

That 'old millstone' has kicked the rump of two earlier clients and has easily held off the EC even with Pinco's updates. Without Pinco's work it would have been 3 'updated', 'modern', 'far better', etc, etc new clients with their rumps kicked into the trash bin. You pixel fixated folks need to get a grip on reality and accept that no ones beat the CC yet.

Ohh well, then... our problems are solved because the Classic Client is just bringing new and returning players IN DROVES! Why are we even worrying about the game then or any game? Why Sony and Microsoft should just cancel their next gen consoles and Nvidia and ATI should stop trying to produce new graphics cards because the pinnacle of video games came in 1997!

I'm sure UO will be surpassing WoW in active accounts any day now.

 

[Love them Redheads]

Personally, I'm keeping my UO accounts open until I see how SotA pans out. If it provides a better gameplay experience with better graphics, then I'll make the formal switch.

Yeah never heard that in the last 15 years.. waiting for the next great thing only to have it flop and good old UO will still be around.

UO has alot of problem, the least of which is graphics. The biggest problem it has is that the company that owns it doesn't give a crap about it, won't spend a dime on advertising and runs a skeleton Dev team that due to lack of funding or just plain stupidity can't release a line of code without causing a 2 week revert.

In the hands of a better company UO could greatly improve in both quality and subs.

 

[Love them Redheads]

...Ohh well, then... our problems are solved because the Classic Client is just bringing new and returning players IN DROVES!

Those players don't even know UO still exists.

I met a guy at work who played UO 15 years ago and after talking to him his response "Oh UO is still around?"

Now this is a gamer, someone who played WoW for 6 years who had no idea UO was still in existance.

Guess what..... 3 months later he's playing UO and loving it. So much better than WoW is what he's saying now.

So if it wasn't for a random conversation he wouldn't even know UO was a gaming option.

You're welcome EA, I just did more advertising and made more of an attempt to bring in new players than you've done in 10 years.

 

[Love them Redheads]

Sony and Microsoft should just cancel their next gen consoles and Nvidia and ATI should stop trying to produce new graphics cards because the pinnacle of video games came in 1997!

Actually in terms of depth of gameplay and story lines, many of the older games are much better than the recycled crap they are producing these days. Most of the games made today can be beaten over a weekend because they lack substance and are nothing more than some programmer using the latest graphics tool without bothering with making an actual good game. I'm sure that next Madden or Resident Evil game on the PS4 is going to be so much better than the first one that came out on the PS1...

Seeing this same crap in Hollywood as well. How many remakes are we seeing where the original is far superior and the only reason it was remade is so some idiot who thinks 3d computerized creatures would look cooler than the old stop motion animation. That and the always dumb public who will pay out the nose for the same crap they're already seen.

Maybe I'm just old school, but the original Clash of the Titans with Ray Harryhausen's stop motion creatures was so much better than the remake with computer generated screenfillers. Pretty much feel the same way about most of the latest so called "next generation" games. Flashy 3d visuals with absolutely zero substance.

 

[Uvtha]

The only way I would WANT a UO2 would be if it would be done by the people who made UO. This is why I would not want EA to make UO2, NOTHING they did over the last years, heck since they exist would indicate that they know how to handle a franchise well (see: Westwood with C&C, Kyrandia, Lands of Lore - Origin with Ultima, Wing Commander, System Shock - and the newest victim will be Bioware and their great games, no doubt). They would put wrong people in charge, but I repeat myself here. I am however really looking forward to Shroud of the Avatar. It's the only thing that could be something we are looking for.

UO has been EA owned since day one. They Purchased origin systems long before UO was even in development.

 

[Uvtha]

...

As I previously stated, some people simply refuse to allow UO to be updated.

Personally, I'm keeping my UO accounts open until I see how SotA pans out. If it provides a better gameplay experience with better graphics, then I'll make the formal switch. Richard Garriott has stated in one of the interviews (with MMOItalia) that SotA is "in effect" UO2 (i.e. if he were making an actual game titled UO2, it would be the same thing as SotA just with Ultima involved in it).

The more time passes, the less optimistic I am about UO's ability to be updated. Between EA's effective dismissal attitude of the title and the mindset of the playerbase, I have to agree that attrition may be the best case scenario.

Well if all that's standing between UO and a huge player base jump is all of these great upgrades I don't see why it matters if the CC adherents quit .

 

[Uvtha]

UO has already been made into a 3D game if you haven't heard. The 3D client and the 2D client worked side by side. Please don't tell me it's impossible.

What exactly are you talking about?

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Well if all that's standing between UO and a huge player base jump is all of these great upgrades I don't see why it matters if the CC adherents quit .

I wouldn't say that graphical upgrades are ALL that are standing between UO and a rise in accounts, but graphics are one of the biggest and most glaring aspects of UO in need of an upgrade.

 

[Tina Small]

I'm not sure much can be done at this point about UO's graphics, other than to continue with whatever is being done with improving the graphics for the Enhanced Client.

That being said, I believe that a whole lot more could be done by EA to publicize UO and it wouldn't cost them a cent to do it. All they have to do is reach out to the various gaming sites and arrange for Bonnie Armstrong and Jeff Skalski to do interviews with them and/or reach out to someone like Rob Lashley at mmorpg.com and invite him to do some more Wayback Wednesday episodes for UO.

Mr. Lashley just finished the 11th in a series of monthly Wayback Wednesday episodes on Dark Age of Camelot and will be doing one more for DAoC on April 17th. He and the DAoC dev team and sometimes even the producer for DAoC have done monthly episodes since last May, visiting various realms in DAoC and playing different levels of characters and answering interesting questions along the way. Last week they even had Kai Schober and his wife along as surprise, incognito guests. http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/11/feature/7231 . DAoC also has an official Facebook page and the community coordinator for DAoC has even used a Facebook poll in the past to get community feedback to find out where the devs should go with Mr. Lashley in a Wayback Wednesday episode.

I wish we could get Tim Chappell to work with Mr. Lashley on doing some additional Wayback Wednesday episodes featuring UO. I wish he woulc also come up with a way for UO players to provide feedback on what they think Mr. Lashley and the dev team could actually do in those episodes to highlight aspects of UO that might be appealing to ex-UO players and people who have never played UO who regularly watch the Wayback Wednesday video streams either live or in archive form. Maybe if we all put our heads together, we could help them come up with some stuff in UO that we've tried to tell our friends and family they should come and see but just haven't quite been able to nudge them into UO far enough to give it a try. Maybe seeing some of that stuff featured in a video from Rob might be just the right incentive for them to take things a step further and actually subscribe or resubscribe to check things out further. Maybe some of the SA or High Seas content or the new Exodus encounter, or Blackthorn's new castle, revamped dungeons, etc.

I'm sure there are other gaming sites that would be interested in doing something similar. Maybe people who are familiar with those other sites could drop in here and give some other ideas for Tim to pursue with Jeff, Mesanna, and the rest of the dev team. There just has to be something they could all rally around and feel comfortable with doing that could give UO some much-needed positive exposure that shows EA hasn't relegated UO to its darkiest, dustiest closet and that it is still alive and kicking and still gets new content and updates.

Edited to add: It would also be nice if Bioware or whoever is running things these days would put some more UO content out on their YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/feed/UCXGa2Haa4La5WdAeWr_Texg . It was starting to look kind of interesting on there last year for a while and then it just went dormant. I guess UO, DAoC, and Warhammer not even being listed as legacy games, let alone current games, on the Bioware site (www.bioware.com) though might explain why that YouTube channel has died off, since it was devoted to those particular games.

 

[Tanivar]

...



Ohh well, then... our problems are solved because the Classic Client is just bringing new and returning players IN DROVES! Why are we even worrying about the game then or any game?

Maybe any droves the CC pulled in got lost in the droves the EC brought in? <shrugs> Dig through the droves that have come in and let me know how many each client should be credited with.

 

[Uvtha]

I wouldn't say that graphical upgrades are ALL that are standing between UO and a rise in accounts, but graphics are one of the biggest and most glaring aspects of UO in need of an upgrade.

Yeah, I gotcha, I'm just think that its not entirely or even predominately the fault of the people who prefer the classic client. They DID upgrade the graphics, and it didn't draw any new players, thus they were forced to listen to the players they already had, those who preferred the CC.

Even with better graphics the game will still feel odd and outdated, because unless you completely redo the whole thing it will still clearly be a game designed in a tile based generally flat world. I personally think they should embrace the "retro" look, and make an effort to keep the new art looking as much like the old art as possible. The reason I think this is because I think there IS a market for a deep game like UO, and I think that there are many people who would enjoy and even embrace the old time graphics. I know I love them. I still think the original art assets offered some of the best aesthetics ever in a video game. Not flashy not grabby, just simple and clean, practically iconography. Demons are demons dragons are dragons...

Most of the new art that gets introduced really damages this aesthetic if you ask me. It's not bad art or anything, it just looks like it's meant for another game.

This is why I say just make a new game. The world can be designed to fit the graphics, and a cohesive aesthetic can be achieved. Cohesiveness of appearance I think is much more important than the "quality" of the artwork. That's why the enhanced client seems like such a visual abomination to me.

 

[Tanivar]

The reason I think this is because I think there IS a market for a deep game like UO, and I think that there are many people who would enjoy and even embrace the old time graphics. I know I love them. I still think the original art assets offered some of the best aesthetics ever in a video game. Not flashy not grabby, just simple and clean, practically iconography. Demons are demons dragons are dragons...

If EA would advertise UO and point out the strengths it has most other modern graphics games out there don't even have, and make a decent printable User's Guide to ease the severe learning curve UO has, any player who is feeling burned out on monster whackers that lead you down the same path through the game every time you play it, might give UO a try, old graphics or not. UO's got 15 years of content a new player could look forward to working his way through. Years of discovery.

 

[Gospel]

What exactly are you talking about?

Really? Sigh.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Very bad idea.

Eye candy is not the answer.

If you take away the CC you will lose most of what has made UO so great and so different all these years.

You cannot have it both ways. You stick with the one of a kind classic car that is still appreciated by a select few or you trade it in for a shiny new SUV that looks good but does nothing more then get you from point A to point B and gets traded in every 3 years.
Either way you will have about the same traffic so why sell out?

You wanna play the main stream 'who can top who' graphics game? No thanks!

 

[Uvtha]

Really? Sigh.

Yeah, really. I'm curious if you are referring to third dawn or like Iris or something. No need to be so sassy. :/

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, really. I'm curious if you are referring to third dawn or like Iris or something. No need to be so sassy. :/

Yes, third dawn. 3D graphics using the same core game. The problem is not that it can't be done, it's that it's already tried and failed. Again with KRB, and according to some, the EC. Much of it is simply that there's a large portion of players that want to keep looking at the same crap graphics and terrible UI that they're used to. But the larger problem is no dev team has ever made and supported and finished a superior client. UOs decline is not due to poor gameplay or scripters and hackers. It's dying because it has never evolved. The game we have now is ancient, there are better looking MMORPGs for smartphones. People keep repeating bs like needing a new player guide and advertising. That is so ridiculous. How many sales do you think a car company would get advertising their 97 models in 2013. Uhh but it comes with a manual! Good thinking UHall, yet again.

 

[Uvtha]

I agree, I think they should just make a new game myself.

 

[Corvyn]

What has Richard done since UO? U9, Tabula Rasa? what else?

After what he experienced with NCSoft he took a break from gaming, that's no secret. What has he done? He flew into space! Also: He won his case against NCSoft and put millions of what he got out of it into Shroud of the Avatar. Now he is back, where is the problem?

 

[Corvyn]

Very bad idea.

Eye candy is not the answer.

If you take away the CC you will lose most of what has made UO so great and so different all these years.

You cannot have it both ways. You stick with the one of a kind classic car that is still appreciated by a select few or you trade it in for a shiny new SUV that looks good but does nothing more then get you from point A to point B and gets traded in every 3 years.
Either way you will have about the same traffic so why sell out?

You wanna play the main stream 'who can top who' graphics game? No thanks!

omg, I really REALLY do not want to be impolite or disrespectful but posts like this make it so difficult.

"sell out", "main stream graphics game", paleaaaase wake up? In what world are you living in..do you think this game will be run on good will alone? Do you want to be able to play this game for a long time to come or will you not care when they have to shut it down because they were "too proud to sell out" and were restistant to this weird movement of the whippersnappers who would like to have graphics that are not 15 years old. yo man lets not sell out, fight the system!!

I ALSO LOVE THE CC and EC GRAPHICS! I also am totally fine with how it looks (like I wrote in the very first post), I grew up with games like Ultima IV which only had a few pixels. But I also want this game to live a long life don't you? Do you really think without any new customers this game CAN live a long life? Do you really think with litle improvements or a new manual new players can be drawn to this game? Are you that selfish that you rather have this game die than to endure different graphics with the same amazing gameplay?

I already regret that I wrote this, I will still press the "post reply" button to ease the ache in my belly that your post caused.

 

[startle]

It's 1:30 am for me and spent the last half hour reading everything up to this point, but I've found it all very interesting. Before I call it a night, just want to say I'm really in Corvyn's corner on this one...

 

[Tina Small]

I had high hopes for the 12 months leading up to UO's 15th anniversary that maybe EA would see the light and go all out for such a momentous occasion and maybe surprise us with news that they were seriously working on giving UO a fresh, modern look for those who wanted to take advantage of it.

Unfortunately, the 15th anniversary celebration was so anticlimactic that EA couldn't even be bothered to ever get around to posting official video or even a copy of the slide show from the party in Fairfax.

Therefore, at this point, it's difficult for me and I would imagine a lot of other people to imagine EA ever again making any kind of sizable investment into UO in an attempt to bring in new players. The dev team has been so severely scaled back that at this point it seems unfair and beyond ridiculous to even suggest anymore that the team try to do anything to get people who have never tried UO to give it any kind of consideration. I really think all we can expect out of the team at this point is that they try to keep UO hobbling along for another one to three years and occasionally make some kind of an effort to get former players to come back and give it a try for a while and hope they become readdicted for a few months and maybe drag a friend or family member along for a bit. In the meantime, the subscriber base will just continue to gradually decrease because players will eventually decide that what they are getting out of UO in terms of entertainment value or whatever else they value it for just isn't worth the time or the money they are sinking into it. It's too bad, but it should be pretty obvious to everyone by now that EA just doesn't really give a damn about UO and are letting it die a slow and painful death. I give the people on the dev team and the EM team and the various fansites that are still running a lot of credit for sticking things out up to this point. But I would imagine that deep down inside, at least a few of them are ready for UO to shut down and to be able to move on to something else that feels like it actually has some kind of budget, support, commitment, whatever you want to call it, from the company that owns the title. For the people on the dev team and the EM team who still have another 10 to 30 to 40 years left in their career, it has to be hard to decide every day to continue sticking things out with UO, wondering whether it's a waste of time or even detrimental to their future employment opportunities to be working on a game that's basically going nowhere, even one as historic as UO.

I think if we the players want to see UO stick around for a few more years, we probably need to adjust our expectations and become a lot more realistic about what can possibly happen with UO and maybe start working on drawing together as a community in support of a product that's on a severely limited budget. Maybe we need to re-examine what really has kept us involved with UO up to this point and start trying to come together and figuring out where we have common interests and what really needs to be preserved in UO to keep us all involved with it for a few more years and what really can just be sacrificed and let go of at this point because it is either too expensive to continue or is only appealing to a very limited number of players. I don't know if something like that can be done though. We're a pretty fractured group already and, unfortunately, it seems like UO has become more than just a hobby to some people and they just might fight tooth and nail to keep it just the way it is because they've become too reliant on it for bringing in an income that supports themselves and their families.

Sorry to be so glum and I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone. It's too late for anything like that, as far as I'm concerned. I just think though that it's too late at this point to waste time and divide our little community any more than it already is wishing and hoping for things that'll just never happen. UO's glory days are long gone and I think we'll be lucky to see it last more than another year or two. It was an eye opener for me earlier this evening to realize that Bioware has completely removed what little bit of information they used to have for UO and the Fairfax office from their website. All you can find now is a jump to the Origin store to buy UO items. That's it. They just want to suck a little more money out of the current players and they don't care anymore about publicizing UO or trying to help it grow. UO is toast.

 

[Corvyn]

Tina Small: I completely agree with many points you made. But I can't settle for the option "EA doesn't care so there is no hope". Believe it or not, to some degree it IS in our hands to make EA care again. I refuse to believe that it's too late. If SOTA succeeds, maybe then UO will get their attention again. Right now they see WOW as successfull model and to them UO too far away from that. If SOTA with similar qualities as UO is successfull then they might reconsider. We all know just how "successful" wow clones are...

 

[Tanivar]

Yes, third dawn. 3D graphics using the same core game. The problem is not that it can't be done, it's that it's already tried and failed. Again with KRB, and according to some, the EC.

They've all failed because they were not as well done. As UI's they were not as good as the origonal client. Why trade in a good UI like the CC for a poorer quality one just because it's a better pixel crack fix?

Much of it is simply that there's a large portion of players that want to keep looking at the same crap graphics and terrible UI that they're used to.

A lot of us are not addicted to pixel crack, we just want a good look & good feel UI. We got it with the CC and are happy campers. We do not want to switch to the EC with it's crap graphics and terrible UI. And the EC is not a good UI oh pixel crack addicts.

But the larger problem is no dev team has ever made and supported and finished a superior client.

And this is why so many want to keep using the CC. No Dev Team has ever made a superior client to replace it.

The game we have now is ancient, there are better looking MMORPGs for smartphones.

Smartphone games are simple eye-candy things to give someone something to do while bored. No depth, little content. Just simple mindless entertainment.

People keep repeating bs like needing a new player guide and advertising. That is so ridiculous. How many sales do you think a car company would get advertising their 97 models in 2013. Uhh but it comes with a manual! Good thinking UHall, yet again.

UO is a very deep game with a hellacious learning curve that anyone who plays it as more than a mindless monster whacker quickly picks up on. Those that want to do more than mindless monster whacking would find a guide really handy. UO isn't a modern game that hands you what little needed info there is as it leads you by the nose through the game.

Advertising is something any company that wants to survive knows to do. If no one knows you have a product you make and want to sell, only those that run across it by chance will even know it exists. You think advertising isn't needed? WoW, Eve, D3, and others were advertised because the manufacturers knew that if they didn't, no one would know about their games. What? You just wake up each morning and just suddenly *know* that there is a new great game that has appeared at a certain website?

 

[Corvyn]

Advertising is something any company that wants to survive knows to do. If no one knows you have a product you make and want to sell, only those that run across it by chance will even know it exists. You think advertising isn't needed? WoW, Eve, D3, and others were advertised because the manufacturers knew that if they didn't, no one would know about their games. What? You just wake up each morning and just suddenly *know* that there is a new great game that has appeared at a certain website?

YES but they need somethigng to advertise UO WITH. Noone will respond to 15 year old graphics. That is the whole point I made all this time and in the first post already. Enhance the graphics so you CAN advertrise again and then when its done EA has to actually advertise it, like I said, sell it as "UO Reboot" or something. Then NEW customers will come and learn to love all those details UO offers that other MMOs don't. The graphics are to LURE new people in and NOT the most essential part of the game. This is what many don't want to understand.

About the learing curve: http://cdn.overclock.net/1/12/127a2824_eve-online-learning-curve.jpeg

 

[Tanivar]

YES but they need somethigng to advertise UO WITH. Noone will respond to 15 year old graphics. That is the whole point I made all this time and in the first post already. Enhance the graphics so you CAN advertrise again and then when its done EA has to actually advertise it, like I said, sell it as "UO Reboot" or something. Then NEW customers will come and learn to love all those details UO offers that other MMOs don't. The graphics are to LURE new people in and NOT the most essential part of the game. This is what many don't want to understand.

They can advertise UO using it's long life, all the content that has been built up over 15 years, how much more there is to do than simple monster whacking, advertise that their is something to do no matter what mood your in at the time due to the variety of things you can do while playing UO. That your not limited to going out in certain armor, to go a certain place, to fight certain monsters, in order to advance in the game. That you can vary your character's skills and are not locked into a certain set of skills. There is a lot to UO that could be advterised that would draw in new players. Not everyone is fixated on fancy graphics and feels any game that only has clean graphics is a lost case unless it's changed to have fancy graphics. Those of you that are fixated on fancy graphics have to let it sink in, games can be kick-ass fun even without fancy graphics. People just need to be told they exist and where to find them. Something EA keeps stepping on it's sword about.

 

[Corvyn]

They can advertise UO using it's long life, all the content that has been built up over 15 years, how much more there is to do than simple monster whacking, advertise that their is something to do no matter what mood your in at the time due to the variety of things you can do while playing UO. That your not limited to going out in certain armor, to go a certain place, to fight certain monsters, in order to advance in the game. That you can vary your character's skills and are not locked into a certain set of skills. There is a lot to UO that could be advterised that would draw in new players. Not everyone is fixated on fancy graphics and feels any game that only has clean graphics is a lost case unless it's changed to have fancy graphics. Those of you that are fixated on fancy graphics have to let it sink in, games can be kick-ass fun even without fancy graphics. People just need to be told they exist and where to find them. Something EA keeps stepping on it's sword about.

With this I guess we just simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[Uvtha]

YES but they need somethigng to advertise UO WITH.

Tried that with KR. Failed to draw any new players. Not gonna happen again.

 

[MalagAste]

I have to say this. Most people who come to play UO now become bored or frustrated within a few short weeks.

I've spoken with numerous folk who have returned. They at first get REALLY annoyed by the complicated armor system... They of course can't afford to build "The best" suits... They get really irritated if I offer to craft them one but ask they gather some of the ingredients for me to deffer the cost... They don't care to PvM so much... Most miss the RPPvP we used to have. That time is long gone. They miss the struggle between good and evil... They can't understand what's up with imbuing or most of them refuse to update to the new SA or HS..... then complain about boredom..... And all I can say is of course your bored your only playing half the game. And saddly there are not very many people on in game anymore.... so most times you play alone or have to listen to the vulgar backtalk in Gen Chat.... That will certainly endure people to UO.... Or they get burned by some scammer at the bank and remember why they quit in the first place.... or they try to recover their beloved account but can't get thru the challenge of the Account Management system and they give up in frustration.... vowing never to return again.

They would like to check out things but they bought a code off the Origin site and now it says that code is "invalid".... they become angry and quit....

They start playing and the first thing they ask is why is everything so pixilated? They constantly put down the graphics in the game... and laugh when they look at things either in the EC or CC...

They try the CC and want to know how the make the screen bigger..... I tell them they certainly don't want to look at it any larger it would look like crap... But they insist so I tell them to change the resolution on their monitor.. and then they see I'm right.

They complain the play area in the CC is too small... I tell them to use the EC..... so they do. Then they say it's ugly and they can't do so many things they could do in the CC ..... so I tell them to download Pinco's. They don't want to download any 3rd party stuff. But I insist it's not illegal and they can install it and that the EC is MADE so you can download and use someones UI..... Which is why it's a PoS because it's only half there the other half you need to hire someone who knows how to build a UI to really make it work. OR you can just swallow it and download Pinco's.... which is THE UI that everyone uses because well..... it's that good.

Once I get them to do that then it's another day and a half of telling them about every feature in Pinco's how to turn it off or on and how to adjust the settings.

Tired of constantly repeating myself over and over again about the use of Pinco's a friend and I decide we'll teach a class on it in hopes of converting more folk to the EC and Pinco's..... we teach about 5 or 6 people and find it's a royal pain if you aren't looking over their shoulder... and people don't really follow directions well.

I thought the EM program would save the game and bring back the fun. But more than ever I find it's only a new frustration. I think I've attended my last one. I like many others am FED UP with attending the EM events to enjoy the story only to be insulted... have to put up with people who are only there for the "item" and to make 100's of millions in gold..... so they are rude, vulgar and downright annoying. I swear I have half the shard on my ignore list.... I'm tired of seeing folk at the events running around with names that ought to be a bannable offense because they are vulgar and often descriptive of sex acts or sex or degrading to females or whatever its getting to where I'm so disgusted by the behavior of people I don't want to play anymore. So once you get thru all that then you have to put up with wasting 10 min of time because people DON'T LISTEN to the EM..... They stand right on top of everything with their dragon in tow flapping wings all over so the EM can't even see where they are let alone interact with things. They constantly spam stuff like "Shut up and get on with it" "Will there be an item tonight?" "When do I get my item? Shut up and get on with it I want my Item"...... "Where is the clicky" or worse yet they shout vulgar stuff about Sex acts, degrading things about females, continually spam it over and over and over..... till you just can't stand it..... To the point that those coming to actually enjoy the event for what it is can't follow the story without a detailed guide... Which is nearly impossible to strain from the walls of text in the journal and filter out of the spam..... It's no wonder fewer and fewer "decent" players attend. It's now to the point where most those who used to care about the events don't go anymore the few who are left attending struggle to keep up with what's going on... and the majority of those that do attend aren't even from the shard they are there for the booty and that's all.

The game used to be fun when you could focus on community... but now the focus is on the stuff.... how much it's worth and who has it. It's all about making 100's of millions and nothing else. Hard to put on an event if your not giving away 100's of millions in prizes. No one seems to care about community anymore...... Or doing stuff just to have fun with friends and guildmates. And there are less and less things to do with friends and guildmates since a vast majority of the game can be solo'd... So taking a group makes it BORING. So then we come full circle to people being bored and quitting again.

How do we improve the game? We can't since most the time we the players ARE what's wrong with it. That's my opinion. Like it or not but I do believe it's the truth of late.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

omg, I really REALLY do not want to be impolite or disrespectful but posts like this make it so difficult.

"sell out", "main stream graphics game", paleaaaase wake up? In what world are you living in..do you think this game will be run on good will alone? Do you want to be able to play this game for a long time to come or will you not care when they have to shut it down because they were "too proud to sell out" and were restistant to this weird movement of the whippersnappers who would like to have graphics that are not 15 years old. yo man lets not sell out, fight the system!!

I ALSO LOVE THE CC and EC GRAPHICS! I also am totally fine with how it looks (like I wrote in the very first post), I grew up with games like Ultima IV which only had a few pixels. But I also want this game to live a long life don't you? Do you really think without any new customers this game CAN live a long life? Do you really think with litle improvements or a new manual new players can be drawn to this game? Are you that selfish that you rather have this game die than to endure different graphics with the same amazing gameplay?

I already regret that I wrote this, I will still press the "post reply" button to ease the ache in my belly that your post caused.

You just dont get it.

That video in your OP is a sickly sweet pile of crap imo.

UO is about gameplay and hardcore gameplay is not about the newest & prettiest graphics. I chuckle to myself everytime someone uses the words graphics & engine. They think we all assume they are engineers because of the term 'graphics engine'
"graphics engine" this and "graphics engine' that lmao.

"additional updated graphics" Thats your salvation? Havent heard that one about once every 3 months for the past 15 years lol.
I dont care how long you say you have been playing and how much you supposedly love UO. You obviously just dont get it. If you turn UO into anything like that sickly sweet video it will die within a year or two. Whatever new pixeladdicts it draws in will be offset by the amount of vets that quit because their gameplay will be ruined.

And all you will have left then is a piece of eye candy that will be outdated itself in a year and need another huge revamp to keep up with the latest "graphics engine" which all the new players you obtained have just left for. Because they dont care about actual gameplay and 15 years of amazing history.

I guess I am selfish because I would rather see UO stay the course and remain awesome for x amount of years(whatever they may be)instead of ruining its 15 years of history with pretty graphics that will be outdated in 6-12 months.

 

[Thrakkar]

Richard Garriotts games are to this day standards other games live up to. U7 is the blueprint for Todd Howards games, he said it himself (Oblivion, Skyrim), Ultima in general was the blueprint for japanese RPGs (FF creator as source). UO started the MMO hype. All this in a 20 year time span, not talking about a fluke here. RG is a genius when it comes to game design and so far has only been held back by publishers.

So no, I would not regret it at all. In fact we will be able to but that theory to test with SOTA.

Exactly my thought. If he screws up with SotA, he can't blame the producers anymore.

That 'old millstone' has kicked the rump of two earlier clients and has easily held off the EC even with Pinco's updates. Without Pinco's work it would have been 3 'updated', 'modern', 'far better', etc, etc new clients with their rumps kicked into the trash bin. You pixel fixated folks need to get a grip on reality and accept that no ones beat the CC yet.

Yeah, right. But only because these other clients either weren't even given a chance or were even crappier than the CC (yes, I'm talking of you TD-client) nor could the devs fully focus on these, because they had to (and still have to) waste development resources on the old client.

And yeah, right, nothing beats 800x600. And the outdated UI.

Oh, and actually I like the original graphics style a lot more (well, and everything that was added before 3rd Dawn, but I think back then they didn't add anything, just recolor existing models). That much for pixels...

What you people do not seem to understand is, that if you want to sell something, you have to make a good first impression. When you go to a job interview, you also dress up. And a car vendor also keeps his cars in a mint condition.
So always yelling, that we need more players but not doing something about the first impression is somewhat contradicting PR wise.

 

[Tina Small]

Tina Small: I completely agree with many points you made. But I can't settle for the option "EA doesn't care so there is no hope". Believe it or not, to some degree it IS in our hands to make EA care again. I refuse to believe that it's too late. If SOTA succeeds, maybe then UO will get their attention again. Right now they see WOW as successfull model and to them UO too far away from that. If SOTA with similar qualities as UO is successfull then they might reconsider. We all know just how "successful" wow clones are...

Well, I'm happy to report this morning that my concern over how UO and the Fairfax office seems to have completely disappeared from the Bioware website may have been somewhat misplaced. Go check out the website at http://www.mythicentertainment.com/ and see what you think. It gives me a tad bit more hope that EA isn't completely pushing UO out of view. I do have to wonder, though, just what they have in mind for UO when I read something like this from the Careers page on that site:

EA Mythic is looking for passionate, talented people willing to help disrupt and redefine the RPG genre in the mobile space. Located just outside of Washington D.C., we are a studio with 15 years of MMORPG heritage, from ‘Dark Age of Camelot’ and ‘Ultima Online’ to ‘Warhammer: Age of Reckoning’. Not content to rest on our laurels, we are building on our experience of creating and maintaining connected, persistent worlds to give us a unique advantage in mobile gaming. Leading the charge into the core RPG market, we're putting strong IPs on mobile in new and exciting ways.

There seems to be only one job in Fairfax (Senior Product Manager) currently listed in the Career Opportunities database and their primary responsibility is to "strategize, analyze and assist in delivering new fun, profitable and addictive user experiences than can be monetized." In other words, figure out how to get players more addicted to your games and suck more money out of them. The job listing also says, "If you have what it takes to create the future of Mobile, Android and iOS games, come and be a big player in a studio that’s going places."

One thing that puzzles me quite a bit is the large "Games Workshop" logo and link at the bottom of the homepage for that site. They appear to be a completely unrelated company that makes model soldiers and Warhammer is one of their biggest brands. Why that makes them deserve a highly visible logo on a Mythic "home page," even before the EA logo, though, is something I don't understand.

EA's probably just keeping UO around to provide funding for new mobile RPG applications they have up their sleeves. Doesn't mean that they plan to eventually make it possible for us to play UO as some cool, retro-style app on our smart phones. They probably just see us as extremely addicted players who will continue to be the cash cow they can milk for a few more years while they dream up new Warhammer, DAoC, and Ultima-themed apps. As long as they have the fine folks at Stratics to keep our complaining under control, the EM program to keep generating new and rare pixel crack, and they can toss out a theme pack every few years for us to lap up like starved kittens, they probably figure everything will work out fine in the end, even if they lose a fair chunk of us along the way. It looks to me as if they are planning on building new mobile FTP RPG games that take advantage of player nostalgia for the DAoC, UO, and Warhammer titles. The "MMO" aspect of their "MMORPG heritage" will probably just drop out of sight somewhere along the line as the original games become unprofitable or too unwieldy for EA to maintain.

 

[Cetric]

The issue isn't the client, it is that UO is built on a 15 year old platform, that any new modern gaming engine won't work with.

The only way to get better than what the EC is (camera angle/art/lack of 3d) is for a new game. Everything in uo would need to be rebuilt from scratch, which would actually be more time consuming than releasing a new uo, with all the same everything, just an updated engine.

 

[Gospel]

They've all failed because they were not as well done. As UI's they were not as good as the origonal client. Why trade in a good UI like the CC for a poorer quality one just because it's a better pixel crack fix?



A lot of us are not addicted to pixel crack, we just want a good look & good feel UI. We got it with the CC and are happy campers. We do not want to switch to the EC with it's crap graphics and terrible UI. And the EC is not a good UI oh pixel crack addicts.




And this is why so many want to keep using the CC. No Dev Team has ever made a superior client to replace it.






Smartphone games are simple eye-candy things to give someone something to do while bored. No depth, little content. Just simple mindless entertainment.





UO is a very deep game with a hellacious learning curve that anyone who plays it as more than a mindless monster whacker quickly picks up on. Those that want to do more than mindless monster whacking would find a guide really handy. UO isn't a modern game that hands you what little needed info there is as it leads you by the nose through the game.

Advertising is something any company that wants to survive knows to do. If no one knows you have a product you make and want to sell, only those that run across it by chance will even know it exists. You think advertising isn't needed? WoW, Eve, D3, and others were advertised because the manufacturers knew that if they didn't, no one would know about their games. What? You just wake up each morning and just suddenly *know* that there is a new great game that has appeared at a certain website?

I'm just gonna end this nonsense here and say you are a very, very confused person with a very limited knowledge of how things actually work. This really isn't worth debating with you as you don't even have the facts straight on your own side of the argument.

 

[Tanivar]

I'm just gonna end this nonsense here and say you are a very, very confused person with a very limited knowledge of how things actually work. This really isn't worth debating with you as you don't even have the facts straight on your own side of the argument.

Not confused a bit and the facts are straight. Probably because I'm not fixated on pixel crack and can consider the other aspects of the situation.

As for the CC going away, all they need to do is make a better client than the CC with a good look & feel and most people will move to the new client. So far the closest they've come is the EC with Pinco's changes, getting about half the player base to switch. Once they hire someone truly capable of designing an excellent UI for UO and let it be made well, nature will take it's course.

 

[Gospel]

Not confused a bit and the facts are straight. Probably because I'm not fixated on pixel crack and can consider the other aspects of the situation.

As for the CC going away, all they need to do is make a better client than the CC with a good look & feel and most people will move to the new client. So far the closest they've come is the EC with Pinco's changes, getting about half the player base to switch. Once they hire someone truly capable of designing an excellent UI for UO and let it be made well, nature will take it's course.

Your statement about smartphone games alone discredits your whole statement dude. Obviously you don't know what you're talking about. And now apparently you're hung up on them needing a new client? No kidding? That's what we have all been saying. It has nothing to do with eye candy or pixel crack. It has to do with making a better looking game with a better UI. Your use of the term "pixel crack" isn't even right. Your thoughts on advertising are WAY off. So far all you've done is taken five posts to eventually get around to what everyone else was saying in one post. I'm sure you want to feel included but get with the program.

Ill break it down real simple. UO needs a complete bug fix overhaul. Fix duping, scripting, hacking. UO needs a new client, superior to both EC and CC, one that can be enjoyed by users of both, and shut down of the old clients in turn. The new client needs crisp smooth graphics and an intuitive UI. THEN, you advertise and ONLY then. Not a half assed pile of crap like the KR client. Something real.

I don't think this will ever happen. EA doesn't tend to take risks. But if you anted to "fix" the game, this is where it would start, and anything else is cosmetic surgery on a cancer patient.

 

[Cetric]

I'd give the EC a better try if the mvoement graphics didn't seem weird and mage pvp timing wasn't horrendous.

 

[Uvtha]

It's 1:30 am for me and spent the last half hour reading everything up to this point, but I've found it all very interesting. Before I call it a night, just want to say I'm really in Corvyn's corner on this one...

I mean... were all in his "corner". Who wouldn't want to see a huge development for UO? I just think hes looking at the game through rose colored mace and shield glasses. A game redesign (which is what a full 3d conversion would require) is not going to happen. It never was.
A new set of 2d graphics (aside from the HD which they have intimated will be a process over several years) also will not happen.

As someone who decides where the money goes what would you rather do: Invest in a new game with its own direction and framework, or spend probably MORE money for a game that has been limping along with around 20k subs (if that) in an mmo genre where the ceiling is 500k subs (EVE). It's just not good business sense.