I think it's the new version of the tram/fel debate. Most of us are willing to just let everyone play whichever client they prefer as long as they're playing UO
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Which client do you use?
- Thread starter Ezekiel Zane
- Start date
- Watchers 17
While I do agree with that statement, I believe it's much more than that.
As it stands now the developers must devote time and resources to two clients.
Currently the Enhanced Client is being hampered by the continued need for it's graphics to also work in the Classic Client.
The Classic Client, not the EC, is the enabler of that program which shall not be named here. The root of 99% of cheating and scripting in the game. How many players have left UO only because of the rampant cheating?
That program which shall not be named on Stratics was years in development and has had years of continued development. It also benefited from the accidental release of UOs code many years ago. There isn't going to be a similar or capable program developed for the EC in any short time. It'd be years likely if even at all. With the modded ability of the UI and the superior macro system in the EC who would even devote the time to create it when it's really not even needed?
I'm not an EC lover or a CC hater. I never used UO3D, talk about fugly. I did indeed not like that client. I also never liked KR. The graphics were so fuzzy it was sickening. I did try KR. I had it installed on all three of my main computers. Kingdom Reborn just did not look like the UO I loved.
I installed the EC when it came out but I also did not like it either. I tried to play it but obviously it was so new that I didn't have any of the settings, macros and screen setup that I did in the CC so I refused to sit down and devote the time to setting it up and redoing all my macros on six and seven characters on five main actively played accounts. I also, again, did not like the look of the EC. The zoom was off. One of my favorite pastimes, designing and decorating houses, was significantly changed by the EC. Crafting and crafting gumps were awful. Almost every gump for every system was the same instead of the CC unique and pleasant looking gumps and books. The backpacks early on were terrible. Nothing you positioned into the backpack actually landed where you wanted it to. Aligning everything and setting up the backpack perfectly the way I liked it in the CC was next to impossible. Items also just didn't look right in the backpack. I avoided the grid backpack completely. The paperdoll really bugged me. It was bad. My avatar and mount were way too big. I definitely didn't like the brighter yellow used in the default UIs color scheme. Another major problem for me was the differences in the terrain. The CC terrain was so much more clear and concise whereas the EC terrain was murky and shadowy and again fuzzy like KR had been. I decided not the play the EC and I didn't play it for nine months.
One day when reading Stratics I realized finally how good the macro system in the EC was and I discovered the modder community and downloaded some UI mods. Honestly, Dermott's Copper Texture UI mod was the kicker for me. It finally made the EC, the UI at least, appear more UO like and was much more pleasant on the eyes than the default UI textures and color scheme. Soon someone had added in customized gumps restoring a lot of the charm, look and feel of the CC. I decided to give the EC a serious go and began the process of setting up each character's screen and macros. Man did that ever take a long time. I immediately was simply awestruck and in love with hotbars. Holy cow! I can't even remember how often I had always wished the icons on my screen in the CC would lock into place. Here it was in the EC. Then I noticed that little arrow in the bottom right-hand corner of the play window. I grabbed that sucker and pulled open the play window to two-thirds the screen size of my 24 in monitor. Now that was cool. Then additional improvements were made by the devs to crafting and crafting gumps. This helped out a lot especially the make number they added to crafting. This helped tremendously when filling BODs. I also switched to the grid backpack and all the problems I'd had before faded away. Now I can't believe we went so long without it. The paperdoll has been improved too although it's still radically different than the CC paperdoll. I've got used to it. I don't give it a second thought anymore. The biggest improvement overall is that the graphics have got better. Thanks to Grimm and the rest of the art department the graphics do look better today than they did in the beginning. At this moment they are working extra hard again on the artwork. I'm looking forward to seeing the results. It's extremely important to set the zoom in the EC to 1:1 ratio. The default zoom level is wrong and it's a big reason why the EC looks the way it does when people log in. The devs really need to fix it so that it's set by default to 1:1. There's a post in the EC forum for how to do it. It's pretty simple. Then I removed the zoom in/out from the mouse wheel. I use it for something else anyway.
Then there's Pinco's UI. I'm not gonna try to describe here, everything it can do. It's ginormous in scope. The Enhanced Client was designed and intended to be modded. It's not a flaw or short sightedness of the developers. They intended us to be able to customize the UI how we like with different textures and color schemes and more. Pinco has taken it to the next level and then some. Simply put it is insane how awesome Pinco's UI is. What's even better is that you can add-in whatever textures and color scheme you like over his UI.
I've played this game now for more than ten years. My oldest account is now twelve. It and two others have been paid up continuously, almost uninterrupted, ever since I began playing. I have eight other accounts that have three to six years paid time each. I love this game and I'll always feel some nostalgia for the Classic Client. That said, I think it's time to move on. I'd wish for a way for the CC to not be shut down but I also want for the EC to not be held back because of the CC.
I started playing in 1998. I've always loved UO, and the classic client feels natural to me. Also, I have never used an outside program for anything -- only the built-in macro options available in the classic client. I prefer to continue playing as I've always done. I'm not a "techy" person and don't care to switch to the newer client since I'm very happy with the classic.
I have no problem with anyone preferring the EC, but I do get my back up when EC promoters talk about phasing out the CC because they think it's "obsolete". Nothing is "obsolete" as long as people continue to want to use it.
If supporting two clients is so difficult for the Dev team, they need to join this discussion and make their views on this public. Until they come forth with a totally convincing argument as to why the CC should be retired, I'm not buying it.
I have no problem with anyone preferring the EC, but I do get my back up when EC promoters talk about phasing out the CC because they think it's "obsolete". Nothing is "obsolete" as long as people continue to want to use it.
If supporting two clients is so difficult for the Dev team, they need to join this discussion and make their views on this public. Until they come forth with a totally convincing argument as to why the CC should be retired, I'm not buying it.
B
Baskum
Guest
Classic Client.. Why?? Because it's the closest I am going to get to the Original 3D Client. <sigh>
Theres already a similar program for the EC, theres a few to be honest. The EC cheats actually take less coding and scripting on their end due to ECs macro system, soooo if anything EC makes the scripters jobs easier
This is false. There is nothing in the EC macro system which allows you to write, save and execute hundreds or thousands of lines of code and run any macro, script or bot continuously.
...
You can do quite a few actions for quite a LONG period of time in the EC, however what you CANNOT do it program a character to travel to point A, macro activity until a full backpack, travel to point B, dump the gains from Point A, restock as necessary and return (i.e. a Heartwood script or mining script).
Granted you can put together a NICE fishing or mining (with smelting) or even a skill training macro (i.e. Forensic Eval on a paragon chest), but you simply CANNOT script to the level that has been seen with scripting bots through the EC's internal UI, even modded.
By the same token, if the EC does become the default client for the game then, yes, you can in time expect such programs to be developed. The EC is NOT cheatproof any more than MacOS Linux or any other non-Windows OS is virusproof.
You can do quite a few actions for quite a LONG period of time in the EC, however what you CANNOT do it program a character to travel to point A, macro activity until a full backpack, travel to point B, dump the gains from Point A, restock as necessary and return (i.e. a Heartwood script or mining script).
Granted you can put together a NICE fishing or mining (with smelting) or even a skill training macro (i.e. Forensic Eval on a paragon chest), but you simply CANNOT script to the level that has been seen with scripting bots through the EC's internal UI, even modded.
By the same token, if the EC does become the default client for the game then, yes, you can in time expect such programs to be developed. The EC is NOT cheatproof any more than MacOS Linux or any other non-Windows OS is virusproof.
did i say the ec has the illegal program built in? no. But your a fool if you think theres no illegal EC addons/programs.
So your false is false
So your false is false
Both clients suck. The CC sucks less. The fact you cannot attract the majority of the playerbase to play a so-called modern client in favor of a piece of garbage from nearly 15 years ago speaks volumes really.
I tried the EC, looked odd and character movement was terrible. Didn't even run very well on a PC that can run most games on high settings which is a total joke in itself.
I'd like nothing more than to play UO on a client which runs well and retains the feel and spirit of UO from the CC, yet brings many convenient and modern features that the CC sorely lacks. Unfortunately, the EC isn't that client imo. Perhaps it could be, but it's not there yet. That's sorta been the issue with all later clients they've released; their initial showing was so poor that people were put off from using them ever again after initial bad impressions.
I tried the EC, looked odd and character movement was terrible. Didn't even run very well on a PC that can run most games on high settings which is a total joke in itself.
I'd like nothing more than to play UO on a client which runs well and retains the feel and spirit of UO from the CC, yet brings many convenient and modern features that the CC sorely lacks. Unfortunately, the EC isn't that client imo. Perhaps it could be, but it's not there yet. That's sorta been the issue with all later clients they've released; their initial showing was so poor that people were put off from using them ever again after initial bad impressions.
Yeah let's try not to get the thread locked so that people can continue to vote.
I have no idea how many players are still playing UO. I've seen estimates of 35,000 accounts, 50,000 accounts, etc. Even if there are only 20,000 actual players paying, so far this is a less than a 1% sampling of the playerbase.
The active posters on Stratics have not exactly always been a majority of UO players. More like a highly vocal minority of the playerbase. I don't think either side of the vote has much evidence to claim a true majority of the actual playerbase.
Did any of you EC posters even read the post above?
He's saying the cheat scripts take less coding and scripting on the script writers part because a lot of what needs to be scripted in the CC can just be done easily in the EC macro system instead, making the whole cheat system easier to make work with the EC.
Are your EC soapboxes so tall you can't see your monitor's clearly? Sheesh!...
READ the post you are refering to. THINK about if what your going to say even makes sense as it refers to that post, THEN POST!
*pulls hair* [my own]
This is going to keep going and going and going... *slaps energizer bunny*... until the Devs themselves come out from under cover (waving a white flag) to tell us all what the team wants/intends to do.
This is going to keep going and going and going... *slaps energizer bunny*... until the Devs themselves come out from under cover (waving a white flag) to tell us all what the team wants/intends to do.
You reread his post yourself. Note the first sentence which I bolded for you. His statement is absolutely false. I've spent the last three hours searching all over the internet. I have been able to find absolutely zero evidence to support the claim. If you can find evidence, then PM me a link to it and I'll happily retract my statement.
Your one who makes good arguements so I'll take a look for such programs. Since you haven't turned any up it should be a challenge, which I enjoy.
First goal, figure out where to look for cheat programs.
S
Sevin0oo0
Guest
functionally, EC wins, hands down
graphics wise, i think there's a lot of cool looking things in EC, terrain elevations was the one that killed it for me tho - i couldn't tell where that drop was near the water - albeit i'm sure i'd stop when i hit the edge, but that would take some of the 'realism' out of the game, which was one of UO's claims to fame back in tha day. Real enough people got married/divorced/etc., both in-game and IRL.
graphics wise, i think there's a lot of cool looking things in EC, terrain elevations was the one that killed it for me tho - i couldn't tell where that drop was near the water - albeit i'm sure i'd stop when i hit the edge, but that would take some of the 'realism' out of the game, which was one of UO's claims to fame back in tha day. Real enough people got married/divorced/etc., both in-game and IRL.
Sevin that's what bugged me the most about the EC terrain in the beginning. Elevation changes were much more difficult to see than in the CC. It's a little better now but a ways to go still I agree.
I'm not attacking EC users in general or bullying anyone, just commenting on the repliers to a specific post. No need to make such general statements to rally the troops. I told the repliers, in an addmittedly overly noticable fashion, what to do to make their replies more useful to their efforts. But given the way the specific posts read, it seemed to be appropiate.
Same rules I follow myself when not getting close to the point of trying
to get someone to listen.Might be time to take a day's break from this thread and then come back and see if the specific EC posters above are writing posts that relate to the posts they are replying to. My optimism is running low on that at the moment though.
At least I don't resort to what poster 44 did.
I strongly agree… Leave the both alone so everyone has a choice… not that we need a gun to our head. It seems in so many of these discussions, some of the same EC supporters beat the same old drum that Classic needs to go, or we are holding up whatever they think. But the point is, it's not your place to force anything. Time and time again, I keep saying the same thing about the game I’ve been saying for 10 years. UO has something for everyone, that’s the magic of the game. If you love fighting, adventuring, commerce, or just hanging around and socializing… everything and more. This is not a crime.
What I do resent most of all… from the staff, is the “temptations” they design to force us. I don’t even know if it's fact anymore, but allowing characters to have different faces. That would be nice for EVERYONE. A big question I asked 10 years ago was how come everyone has to look the same? hehe. But… another, I just don’t get at all… why do waterfalls work in landscapes… and don’t work in custom house design? A house I built awhile ago has a big waterfall… and someone was amazed at how pretty it was… when I’ve never seen it animated, I was confused. A third issue, I’ve never been able to understand was the changes they made to mountainous areas and dungeons that make them look more like gravel-pits then dungeons. Take the any dungeon for example. Ugliest mistake they ever made and it will never be put back right again.
But… that is the downside to UO, as far as I see it. I would rather they not ruin pre-existing graphics, but they do anyway… sometimes. Other times, they make amazing new things.
It all really brings me back to when I was new… and there always seamed to be a group of PK people in Tram Moonglow… complaining endlessly about Tram. At least on Atlantic, that was a well populated bank back then. I asked them why complain so much about Tram… and be sitting in Tram. Why not swear off ever leaving Fel again, if they loved it so much. I wasn’t being a wise-guy… I hate McDonalds… I haven't been near one in over 20 years. I also don’t like Fel. Would I ever say it needs to be removed? No! Would I post on these forums, at every opportunity, belittling and attacking PVPers? NO! I don’t get why others feel they need to attack us Classics at every turn… but they do.
What I do resent most of all… from the staff, is the “temptations” they design to force us. I don’t even know if it's fact anymore, but allowing characters to have different faces. That would be nice for EVERYONE. A big question I asked 10 years ago was how come everyone has to look the same? hehe. But… another, I just don’t get at all… why do waterfalls work in landscapes… and don’t work in custom house design? A house I built awhile ago has a big waterfall… and someone was amazed at how pretty it was… when I’ve never seen it animated, I was confused. A third issue, I’ve never been able to understand was the changes they made to mountainous areas and dungeons that make them look more like gravel-pits then dungeons. Take the any dungeon for example. Ugliest mistake they ever made and it will never be put back right again.
But… that is the downside to UO, as far as I see it. I would rather they not ruin pre-existing graphics, but they do anyway… sometimes. Other times, they make amazing new things.
It all really brings me back to when I was new… and there always seamed to be a group of PK people in Tram Moonglow… complaining endlessly about Tram. At least on Atlantic, that was a well populated bank back then. I asked them why complain so much about Tram… and be sitting in Tram. Why not swear off ever leaving Fel again, if they loved it so much. I wasn’t being a wise-guy… I hate McDonalds… I haven't been near one in over 20 years. I also don’t like Fel. Would I ever say it needs to be removed? No! Would I post on these forums, at every opportunity, belittling and attacking PVPers? NO! I don’t get why others feel they need to attack us Classics at every turn… but they do.
This discussion is mild compared to a lot of the stuff that was said by 2D client users regarding users of the Third Dawn client when EA pulled the plug on that client in the spring of 2007 in preparation for the release of the Kingdom Reborn client. I remember people being much meaner and nastier at that point in time, downright gleeful in some cases over the distress some people were going through regarding the shutdown of that client. It's no wonder many people who had been using the Third Dawn client left that spring and have never come back. At least at this point in time no one is being forced to use either client.
2:30 in the AM, no sign yet of an EC cheat or script program via several search engines and lot of search term combos. I'd say it's a really safe bet there isn't any yet.Your one who makes good arguements so I'll take a look for such programs. Since you haven't turned any up it should be a challenge, which I enjoy.
First goal, figure out where to look for cheat programs.
Being tenacious, I'll hunt some more tomorrow, but if there's an EC cheat program out there it's not available to the public.
Score one for the EC fans.
Just wanted to add another little note here, as this discussion got me to thinking once again of 2007 and so many of the changes that happened around at that time as the Kingdom Reborn client was being rolled out. The group of people I played with literally fell apart at that point. Out of the approximately a dozen people that I played with at that point, about two thirds of us used the Third Dawn client. I know some of our group that used it were like me, latecomers to the game who "didn't know any better" when we began playing and selected the "3D" client. I knew no one who played UO when I bought a copy in late 2004 and heck, "3D" certainly seemed like a better choice than "2D" on the face of it and with no one to explain the difference to me. Others in the group that used it were people who'd played years before, left, and came back and I think preferred it for things such as the resizable game window and containers.
Anyway, out of that dozen people, only THREE people besides myself have come back to UO since then and given it another go for short stretches of time, and two of them were always classic client users. The other came back last year for a while only because I paid her subscription for a month as an enticement. She had been a Third Dawn client user and was okay with using the EC when she came back since she'd been off playing WoW in the meantime. She wouldn't even consider using the CC when she returned. (She didn't stay, unfortunately. Things have changed too much and Baja, the shard where we played, no longer felt like home for either of us.)
I think the game lost a lot of players like me at that point--people who preferred the Third Dawn client either because it's all they'd ever used or it offered features they enjoyed using--because EA decided to pull the rug out from under us and force us to either use something new, untested, and vastly different, or something that we really felt was a step backwards.
Oh well. Ancient history now, I guess. But I really think the game lost many subscribers at that point and would definitely do so again if EA decided to force people to switch to a client they really don't want to use.
Anyway, out of that dozen people, only THREE people besides myself have come back to UO since then and given it another go for short stretches of time, and two of them were always classic client users. The other came back last year for a while only because I paid her subscription for a month as an enticement. She had been a Third Dawn client user and was okay with using the EC when she came back since she'd been off playing WoW in the meantime. She wouldn't even consider using the CC when she returned. (She didn't stay, unfortunately. Things have changed too much and Baja, the shard where we played, no longer felt like home for either of us.)
I think the game lost a lot of players like me at that point--people who preferred the Third Dawn client either because it's all they'd ever used or it offered features they enjoyed using--because EA decided to pull the rug out from under us and force us to either use something new, untested, and vastly different, or something that we really felt was a step backwards.
Oh well. Ancient history now, I guess. But I really think the game lost many subscribers at that point and would definitely do so again if EA decided to force people to switch to a client they really don't want to use.
This poll is still open because I believe the results are really useful, both to us and the development team.
But
If the attacks don't stop it's going to end up locked anyway.
Just vote what you use and leave the 'missionary' attitude out please.
But
If the attacks don't stop it's going to end up locked anyway.
Just vote what you use and leave the 'missionary' attitude out please.
Going by the poll numbers above, dropping a client would lose a good sized chunk of the 31% who swear by the EC or a good sized chunk of the 69% who swear by the CC. (Edit: Fixed % numbers. about 3:35 AM . Way to far into the wee hours for me.)
A Bad Thing for UO's future either way.
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Edit: Just saw your post Petra. Standing down the troops, racking the weapons, and taking the pots of boiling oil down off the walls.
Yeah, I'm just quitting my search too. As of yet, I've still found no sign of one either.2:30 in the AM, no sign yet of an EC cheat or script program via several search engines and lot of search term combos. I'd say it's a really safe bet there isn't any yet.
Being tenacious, I'll hunt some more tomorrow, but if there's an EC cheat program out there it's not available to the public.
Score one for the EC fans.
I have to agree. It's a conundrum.
Thanks Petra. We'll try to tone it down some. I'd sure like to see a larger percentage of players chime in with their preferred client.
I'm one of the ones that left when they dropped the 3D client. The Enhanced Client wasn't out yet. It was either use the CC, or quit. I chose to quit. I came back because I started to hear good things about the EC client and Pinco's UI. I don't think I would have come back if it wasn't for Pinco and all his hard work.
CC till something beats it. Paper doll, character movements user friendly to an elder lady that use no programs and dont mind cilcking..and wants the vendors neatly stocked!
2d, or Legacy, or classic, Only and Forever!
Z
Zyon Rockler
Guest
I use the EC and Pinco's UI full screen, no black border.
My son, daughter and wife also use the EC but they do not use Stratics.
My son, daughter and wife also use the EC but they do not use Stratics.
ONLY use EC with pinco's UI,
dont have a single reason to use 2d, espically when my pc ports onto my 47" bravia, 2d is NOT an option,
EC works flawlessly, (i can even walk round Luna without ANY lag)
(i think my SSD helps with this)
UI is so much more advanced and also fits full screen on my tv,
Also LOVE the new music that has been recently added to the pinco mod
macro's etc are a cinch in the EC
dont have a single reason to use 2d, espically when my pc ports onto my 47" bravia, 2d is NOT an option,
EC works flawlessly, (i can even walk round Luna without ANY lag)
(i think my SSD helps with this)
UI is so much more advanced and also fits full screen on my tv,
Also LOVE the new music that has been recently added to the pinco mod
macro's etc are a cinch in the EC
You are making a couple assumptions here that I don't think you should be making. The first would be that everyone that voted for each client is that hardcore that they would quit if their client was dropped. The second is that one of the clients would be dropped as it currently is without updates in the other that would please those who used the dropped client.Going by the poll numbers above, dropping a client would lose a good sized chunk of the 31% who swear by the EC or a good sized chunk of the 69% who swear by the CC. (Edit: Fixed % numbers. about 3:35 AM . Way to far into the wee hours for me.)
A Bad Thing for UO's future either way.
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Edit: Just saw your post Petra. Standing down the troops, racking the weapons, and taking the pots of boiling oil down off the walls.
Now obviously even if changes were made to either client to try and please the people who use the dropped one, there is still the possibility of losing people, but that number of people would go down quite alot from what you are assuming. There could be another poll on that subject, but it would be too difficult to set up, seeing as in the other thread we have going on this discussion, some people would like certain things from one client in the other but don't want certain other things, it's basically like ordering a pizza and asking everyone at a party what they want on it.
As of this post, the current standings are:
63% classic
27% enhanced
9% both
after 211 votes
These are some interesting numbers so far, I hope more people continue to vote and leave their reasons for the client they choose to use over the other without flaming.
While I don't believe there was a poll like this for the 3rd Dawn client or the KR client (I could be wrong, dunno), I think it is safe to assume (though it is still probably a bit early for that) that the EC is far more popular than either of those clients were, at the least more than 3rd Dawn.
I spoke with 3 people in ventrilo last night who are not active on stratics that say they use the EC, though they didn't say if they still use CC or not as well.
One thing I am a little amazed about is that there are so many people that use just the enhanced client, I really would have thought that more EC users would have fallen into the Both category rather than strictly EC.
C
Capn Kranky
Guest
Don't play any more but when I did it was CC. The EC just isn't for me. <shrug>
I occasionally play UO on my 46" LCD and have no issues with the Only Client.
S
Sevin0oo0
Guest
a thing i forgot to add was it's been mentioned in several threads that if there was only 1 client (either) there would be less duplication of work and frees up more time/resources to work on other things. way back when (the layoff era), Cal mentioned they were more than good for people. If a single client happened, I think 'extra time' might give reason to either downsize by 1, or reallocate that artists' resources to a different game. We all know EA's past record of working their people like dogs - not that it's not possible, but I'd sure hate to lose Grimm to ea sports, or worse, to zynga
I said good sized chunk of not everyone.
The client might be more familar from playing other games. The hotbar icons don't vanish if you accidently click on one while moving quickly during battle like the desktop icons in the CC will, which is annoying. The packs tend to be more organized with the grid option. The ability to zoom & unzoom can be handy in battle, particularly ship to ship battles.
The EC has it's plus's among the minus's. Some consider the plus's to far outweigh the minus's and so stick with the EC.
Whichever client keeps the player a Happy Camper and a paying customer for EA.
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This!Whichever client keeps the player a Happy Camper and a paying customer for EA.