What happened to Fel?

[Ni-]

Just because you dont understand the competitive nature of PvP doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it.

Yes, its so people like you who don't understand what PvP is about can play UO on easy mode in Trammel.

On the Flip side, just because people who PvP don't understand nature to not want to be griefed of non-PvPers doesn't mean that that they don't enjoy it.

It sounds like you are saying that the fact that some people don't get off on killing or griefing others, that somehow they are lesser than those that do.

I feel like I understand what PvP is about; the adrenelin rush from testing your personal skills against an opponent that could end up being unpredictable and smarter than an AI could ever be, the rush from killing someone, for the fun of griefing someone, for the validation to be able to claim that you are better than someone else. Those are just some of the things off the top of my head. Those are super.

They are not, however, what I am looking for in a game. I play UO to relax, to veg out, to toy with numbers. When I want my heart to race, I go to the gym or play a sport. Beating another person doesn't give me validation. That is just me. I like to think that me having fun and relaxing doesn't interfere directly with anyone elses game play, just as I prefer that noone else interferes with my game play. Which, before Trammel, was a very rare occasion.

For those who will say that that isn't player interaction and that I play a single player game, player interaction than attacking someone during PvP. I also play an MMO for the fact that this game is updated. Single player games, at most, get updated with new content once or twice and get old.

 

[Trebr Drab]

OSI was losing it's subscribers en masse.

LOL no they weren't, UO's population count did not start to decline until AFTER Trammel (see http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). UO pre Ren was a healthy game on the rise, no matter what spin some people try and put on it.

That is true, but there were only 3 other MMOs out at that time. UO could have lost quite a bit more and faster had Trammel not been introduced. I am pretty sure I would not still be here.

Actually, that chart doesn't tell you the whole story. It doesn't show how many new players were coming in at the same time that the game was bleeding losses .
So, while UO had increased to almost 200,000 before Trammel (April,2000), the question is how many were they losing at the same time?
For an answer, the link is long gone but on the pre-release SWG boards Raph Koster had said that UO had lost numbers "in the 6 figures" directly related to PKing. This was in answer to the rabid PK community that wanted to infest SWG too. That means that while UO had just under 200,000 subscriptions, thay had lost at least 100,000 directly because of PKing, and maybe a whole lot more. That's an astounding percentage. Any business, when confronted with a 33%+ loss in customers due to one issue, is going to do something about that issue.

Notice also that UO's subs went up dramatically in the last half of 2000, after Trammel came out. The bleeding had stopped for a while. But I think it picked back up later as players saw that Trammel wasn't the answer either.

 

[Priam_Sonoma]

Like the spin you're putting on it?

Looking at that chart, I see the following facts...

1. UO was starting to plateau pre-ren, probably from people leaving because of PKs matching the numbers of new players.

2. There were slowdowns that corresponded to the releases of EQ & AC

3. The numbers proceeded to start rising quickly again with Ren,

4. Then ALL THREE of those games started dropping (or in the case of EQ, slow down to about 20% of its growth before) AT THE SAME TIME, several mosts post-Ren. Why? The obvious answer is to look at the history of MMOs. At the time, a plethora of new MMOs entered Beta (only a few of which survived to release), and there was an upswing in people playing First-person real-time shooters online, as the availability of broadband made the FPS hobby expand from mostly a local network pasttime, to an internet one, and a lot of those prone to PvP went for the more instant, and often cheaper to play, gratification of shooting someone, or being shot and respawning quickly to start shooting again.

Most of the pre-/post- Ren Arguments are based on the fallacy that the game existed in a market with no competitors during the period. As such, BOTH sides are wrong - and one has to look at both MMO & FPS, both computer & console, and changes in the internet, to actually make a relevant argument - if there is even one to find in what occurred.

Ok let me rephrase. In my circles, players that were battle hardened, even reds were leaving. There was a time when someone would yell "Red outside" and like 20 people would tear out of Vesper bank to go get them.

My friends left because the number of reds began to increase and they took over spawns, gates and housing areas. I liked PvP back then, but it changed. The Reds began to run 20 strong. Fighting them everyday got old. They blocked, griefed and changed. The average PK changed from a guy you could talk to even if he was holding all your gear (lol), to a guy that would kill a newbie logging outside of town.

I saw people on Chessy leaving in large groups. Easily a half dozen of my real life friends quit. And part of it, not all of it, was due to PKs taking over. The great Garriot (sp?) social experiment failed.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Like the spin you're putting on it?

Looking at that chart, I see the following facts...

1. UO was starting to plateau pre-ren, probably from people leaving because of PKs matching the numbers of new players.

2. There were slowdowns that corresponded to the releases of EQ & AC

3. The numbers proceeded to start rising quickly again with Ren,

4. Then ALL THREE of those games started dropping (or in the case of EQ, slow down to about 20% of its growth before) AT THE SAME TIME, several mosts post-Ren. Why? The obvious answer is to look at the history of MMOs. At the time, a plethora of new MMOs entered Beta (only a few of which survived to release), and there was an upswing in people playing First-person real-time shooters online, as the availability of broadband made the FPS hobby expand from mostly a local network pasttime, to an internet one, and a lot of those prone to PvP went for the more instant, and often cheaper to play, gratification of shooting someone, or being shot and respawning quickly to start shooting again.

Most of the pre-/post- Ren Arguments are based on the fallacy that the game existed in a market with no competitors during the period. As such, BOTH sides are wrong - and one has to look at both MMO & FPS, both computer & console, and changes in the internet, to actually make a relevant argument - if there is even one to find in what occurred.

You seemed to of missed my point, all I was saying is that UO's subscriber base was NOT leaving en mass pre Ren as the person I was replying to stated, so no I'm not wrong, I'm 100% correct.

 

[Trebr Drab]

You seemed to of missed my point, all I was saying is that UO's subscriber base was NOT leaving en mass pre Ren as the person I was replying to stated, so no I'm not wrong, I'm 100% correct.

And you missed my post, up a couple, explaining exactly how you are wrong about that.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Actually, that chart doesn't tell you the whole story. It doesn't show how many new players were coming in at the same time that the game was bleeding losses .
So, while UO had increased to almost 200,000 before Trammel (April,2000), the question is how many were they losing at the same time?
For an answer, the link is long gone but on the pre-release SWG boards Raph Koster had said that UO had lost numbers "in the 6 figures" directly related to PKing. This was in answer to the rabid PK community that wanted to infest SWG too. That means that while UO had just under 200,000 subscriptions, thay had lost at least 100,000 directly because of PKing, and maybe a whole lot more. That's an astounding percentage. Any business, when confronted with a 33%+ loss in customers due to one issue, is going to do something about that issue.

Notice also that UO's subs went up dramatically in the last half of 2000, after Trammel came out. The bleeding has stopped for a while. But I think it picked back up later as players saw that Trammel wasn't the answer either.

Your right, the chat also doesn't show the tens of thousands of players (probably 100s of thousands, the amount of people that play pre-Ren free shards is astounding) that left when Ren came out or shortly after due to the negative impacts that Trammel had on the in game community (it split it in half and it has been divided ever since, as this thread is evidence of).

 

[Righteous]

Just because you dont understand the competitive nature of PvP doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it.
[/QUOTE]
What competitive nature are you talking about, see how many PKers it will take to kill my Blue or how many it will take to rob me blind before I can hit the Guards hot key. I don't mind a little one on one PvP action, I just get anoyed when its two or three to one. Eventually no matter how good you are you will die when the odds are not in your favor.

Righteous

 

[Trebr Drab]

Your right, the chat also doesn't show the tens of thousands of players (probably 100s of thousands, the amount of people that play pre-Ren free shards is astounding) that left when Ren came out or shortly after due to the negative impacts that Trammel had on the in game community (it split it in half and it has been divided ever since, as this thread is evidence of).

Now you have a point. But lets be honest here too and admit that we don't really know how many individual players play those free servers. I mean, if two of those servers each have 100 members playing, we don't know if there are 100 people playing both or 200 playing in total, or where in between it lies.

But there are free servers out there with players on. And that does reflect to some degree that UO is missing a boat. We just don't know for sure how big that boat is.

And I will be the first to agree that the current situation with Trammel is not the best answer. But looking at Fel, that's not the best answer -even more-, because Trammel is way more active and Fel is practically dead.

And that goes back to this....

Originally Posted by EnigmaMaitreya
The "Good" PKR's of that time as now, absolutely refuse to acknowledge the impact of these Social Pariah's on them or UO. They protect them as if it were they that were doing the deeds they profess they find to totally abhorrent. They do so out of fear that some how they will lose all. You need to wonder at their total inability to perceive they are forfeiting every thing they wanted by embracing the Scum that DD thought he could control, that led to his "Virtual" Dead Body that Trammel was created over.

If there was a way to keep free-for-all PKing from getting out of hand like it did, then that would be the best answer for all involved. But PvPers won't accept that, and so their worst kin, the "social pariahs", have driven the freedom out of UO.

 

[Trebr Drab]

But none of this matters now anyways.
PvP free-for-all doesn't work in level grind games because of the differences in levels. Similarly, it won't work now in UO because of the differences with item levels of power.

The old days of great PvP based on player knowledge and skill are gone for good.

And damn, it used to be good.

 

[Sneaky Que]

On the Flip side, just because people who PvP don't understand nature to not want to be griefed of non-PvPers doesn't mean that that they don't enjoy it.

It sounds like you are saying that the fact that some people don't get off on killing or griefing others, that somehow they are lesser than those that do.

Wrong, I'm saying that PvP doesn't = griefing, if you understand the competitive nature of PvP then you will understand this. I dont have a problem with people not wanting to PvP, I have a problem with people who generalize about PvPers.

I feel like I understand what PvP is about; the adrenelin rush from testing your personal skills against an opponent that could end up being unpredictable and smarter than an AI could ever be, the rush from killing someone, for the fun of griefing someone, for the validation to be able to claim that you are better than someone else. Those are just some of the things off the top of my head. Those are super.

Well, it seems you do at least have an idea Yes that is the general idea behind competitive PvP. Basically people PvP for the same reason that people PvM, for a challange and because its fun.

They are not, however, what I am looking for in a game. I play UO to relax, to veg out, to toy with numbers. When I want my heart to race, I go to the gym or play a sport. Beating another person doesn't give me validation. That is just me. I like to think that me having fun and relaxing doesn't interfere directly with anyone elses game play, just as I prefer that noone else interferes with my game play. Which, before Trammel, was a very rare occasion.

Thats all well and good, but then maybe UO was not the game for you? I mean pre Ren, what made you want to play (I'm assuming you played back then)? Rather than ruin other peoples fun and excitement with UO (via the creation of Trammel, for people like you who didn't like Britannia) why not look for another game? I mean you say " I like to think that me having fun and relaxing doesn't interfere directly with anyone elses game play" but your playing an MMO? It kinda seems to me that the single player Ultima games would of been more your thing, I could be wrong tho, you tell me.

I guess my point is that UO pre-Ren more closely resembled a RPG/game (the "adrenelin rush from testing your personal skills against an opponent that could end up being unpredictable and smarter than an AI could ever be, the rush from killing someone" you speak of), post Ren it has more similarity's with Myspace, if you catch my drift.

For those who will say that that isn't player interaction and that I play a single player game, player interaction than attacking someone during PvP.

This sentence looks/sounds unfinished?

I also play an MMO for the fact that this game is updated. Single player games, at most, get updated with new content once or twice and get old.

Fair point.

 

[the 4th man]

Well, when you have kids playing, that's what you get, lil kid name calling.

As far as Trammel and Felluca go, they existed well before UO went online.....so calling players carebears and all that kid stuff is mute, or symbollic of ones IQ.

If felluca always looked as it does now, went UO went online, then they can kep it, it has no appeal.....the realities of attacking one another, bounties, and whatnot IS good....but, there is a percentage that just don't want to be hassled by the children.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Just because you dont understand the competitive nature of PvP doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it.

What competitive nature are you talking about, see how many PKers it will take to kill my Blue or how many it will take to rob me blind before I can hit the Guards hot key. I don't mind a little one on one PvP action, I just get anoyed when its two or three to one. Eventually no matter how good you are you will die when the odds are not in your favor.

Righteous

Yes, but that is another part of the challange, fighting outnumbered can be extremely fun, it can also be very frustrating, depends on the situation, I personally like a challange of fighting outnumbered, so long as I'm not hopelessly outnumbered, in that case its best to cut your losses and call it a day.

 

[Salty Pete]

LOL no they weren't, UO's population count did not start to decline until AFTER Trammel (see http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). UO pre Ren was a healthy game on the rise, no matter what spin some people try and put on it.

What that chart does NOT show is the number of new accounts vs the number of vet accounts lost. It simply shows the total number of accounts (guestimated) during that time. On the surface it looks to prove your point, however various interviews I have read over the years with the devs during those years indicates that UO was heavily bleeding vet accounts at the same time they were also losing new players that refused to stay because the PKs made the game too hard to learn. UO should have had growth equal to EQ during that stretch as broadband became more readily available. Instead growth slowed and only really saw a boost when the ren box set was released.

Personally, I liked the FFA game. I have a Salty Pete on siege and I have always gravitated back to Fel. I have my house there even now.

 

[Sneaky Que]

But none of this matters now anyways.
PvP free-for-all doesn't work in level grind games because of the differences in levels. Similarly, it won't work now in UO because of the differences with item levels of power.

The old days of great PvP based on player knowledge and skill are gone for good.

And damn, it used to be good.

I see what your saying, but UO still has the skill system (thank god) combined with item system, which gives it a huge advantage over level + item games (WoW for example). *is so very very glad that they did not change UO to a level based game* its what makes UO great.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Well, when you have kids playing, that's what you get, lil kid name calling.

As far as Trammel and Felluca go, they existed well before UO went online.....so calling players carebears and all that kid stuff is mute, or symbollic of ones IQ.

If felluca always looked as it does now, went UO went online, then they can kep it, it has no appeal.....the realities of attacking one another, bounties, and whatnot IS good....but, there is a percentage that just don't want to be hassled by the children.

...and here we have exactly what I'm talking about, people that generalize about PvPers. Saying that PvPers are only kids, only out to grief etc... is as stupid as saying that all priests IRL are pedophiles, its just not true.

Trammel and Fel existed before UO as the names of moons in the Ultima series, whats your point?

Without Britannia (the single facet pre Ren, what is now known as Fel) there would be no UO because it would not have been such a success. The only reason UO, even Tram and Fel exists today is because of the success of the game in its early, pre Ren even pre t2a, years.

 

[feath]

Goodness, this brings back memories.
i had 2 characters - a swordsman, who couldn't run for 30 seconds in armour (oh, yeah, a horse? ha! every time i scrapped up enough money for a horse, a PK killed it for fun) and a miner, who's pack horse got PKd for fun. That's of course, when i set foot outside britian, where I'D got PKd for fun, before they did the horses.
it's was brutal. it wasn't fun. Oh, and if i actually managed to get something to the bank, the thieves got it off my pack before i got it into the bank.
The elaborate scheme my buddy and i did to get our hut... lol. He carried it. it was my job to lure the PKs and die so he could go place the house. yeah, we had a hut! We were totally cool.
i remember when the stones came out, they'd sink into the ground - nothing happened lol. but tram came out right after that, and you could get there. land! you didn't die for HOURS. it was nice.
And then minoc was invaded by lizardmen. yeah. lizardmen. and i died. and died. and died.
and I quit the game.
There's only so many times you can lose everything. Every time you died, you lost it all, and had to start over. It wasn't fun, it was torture.
it was 8 years before I thought it might be okay to play again. Fel now isn't as bad as it was back then, but the people are the same. There are a few reds who are cool. generally, if introduced by a friend of theirs, its okay. but just as a random person, their only thought is to kill you for the laugh.
I don't go there. i'll play in tram. At least when a monster kills me, it isn't laughing in my face over it.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Now you have a point. But lets be honest here too and admit that we don't really know how many individual players play those free servers. I mean, if two of those servers each have 100 members playing, we don't know if there are 100 people playing both or 200 playing in total, or where in between it lies.

But there are free servers out there with players on. And that does reflect to some degree that UO is missing a boat. We just don't know for sure how big that boat is.

Yeh your right, we don't know exactly how many players left UO for whatever reason, play free shards, or even how many people play UO today.

If there was a way to keep free-for-all PKing from getting out of hand like it did, then that would be the best answer for all involved. But PvPers won't accept that, and so their worst kin, the "social pariahs", have driven the freedom out of UO.

Why should we accept it either? Fel is the only place left in UO that is anything like pre Ren, its what is great about the place, the freedom. If things had been done differently back then, then maybe it could have been sorted out and maybe we could still all live in Britannia, but alas...


Raph Koster said it best I think...

Being safe from evil is, in my mind, an uneven tradeoff for the fact that you don’t get to be heroes anymore, in that you can just opt out of fighting evil. It may be nobody wants to be heroes except when it doesn’t count, when it isn’t challenging, that people would rather fight “pretend evil” than the real thing, but I don’t personally believe that. I still think people are better than that. I know this is an odd and probably controversial (perhaps even stupid) position to take, but it’s how I feel. I think that the greatest value of interactive entertainment is when it engages you for real, and teaches you things for real. It is what made the Ultima series great. For me, the struggle to be good, to be one of the good guys, is where people were really challenged in UO, and it’s not really a challenge that exists elsewhere. Sure, you can choose not to use ShowEQ, or choose not to auction spawn points in AC on eBay, but these are not as immediate and direct as dealing with people “virtually” face to face. Being safe from the only real evil in the game, and choosing not to fight it is, well, just fine, but it’s also nothing that is going to teach you about where you stand. It’s the difference between living the Virtues and, well, playing them in a computer game.

http://uocodex.com/uo-devs-designer-dragon/

I have this quote I saved on my comp, someone on H.Hall posted it, sorry I don't know who, but I think its very true...

Feluccans enjoy experiencing the world of Ultima where the 8 virtues and anti-virtues are expressed in a players in game actions.

Trammelites enjoy playing a videogame like any other videogame out there set in an Ultima setting.

 

[Righteous]

Just because you dont understand the competitive nature of PvP doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it.

What competitive nature are you talking about, see how many PKers it will take to kill my Blue or how many it will take to rob me blind before I can hit the Guards hot key. I don't mind a little one on one PvP action, I just get anoyed when its two or three to one. Eventually no matter how good you are you will die when the odds are not in your favor.

Righteous

Yes, but that is another part of the challange, fighting outnumbered can be extremely fun, it can also be very frustrating, depends on the situation, I personally like a challange of fighting outnumbered, so long as I'm not hopelessly outnumbered, in that case its best to cut your losses and call it a day.

There's the key, you like the challange of fighting outnumbered. Quite a few of us don't want to be bothered with a PKer we want to fight what we came to fight. If I wanted to PvP I know where they hang out I can PvP to my hearts content.

The problem is even if you send the PK's packing they come back with even more of thier friends. The issue is quite a few PK guilds believe Fel is thier private reserve and the rest of us don't belong there and they will keep bringing more people into where you are trying to have fun until you leave. They don't want a challenge they just want you to leave. If they wanted a challenge they would come one at a time and fight me. I'm not saying I would win, I am saying that would be a challenge for them. Do you even comprehend the difference?

Righteous

 

[phantus]

Feluccans enjoy experiencing the world of Ultima where the 8 virtues and anti-virtues are expressed in a players in game actions.

Trammelites enjoy playing a videogame like any other videogame out there set in an Ultima setting.

That has some truth to it but it's not quite that black and white. That's the problem with the lame ass ole fel vs tram debate. Noone wants to admit the shades of grey. Trammel was needed but was such a miserable implimetation it's not even funny. Felucca is a minority but you wouldn't know that from many of the posters on these boards. Trammel has as many asses as fel does. The higher pop shards you notice this in excess.

Few people ever comment on the playstyles in the mentality of play. Many players that call themselves feluccans don't understand why someone would play an MMO without interaction(ie competetion) with others. Some really do just want to play a video game based on UO. Some want to play doom based on UO.

Many players feel as if anything they do is justified because it's just a game. No matter how vile it may be seen as if it was done in real life. The cloak of the game is their removal of all morality. Cheaters, scammers and such have such philosophies and play accordingly. Some players hang their hearts on their sleeves and stop to help any newby or passerby needing assistance. Some players will kill you on sight because there is no point in conversing because that is not why they play.

Black and white. Freedom and restriction. These are not synonymous with tram and fel. There are many in-betweens but too many players are polarized to their perspective side and have lost what it means to be on the "good" or "evil" side anymore. Too many people are just playing a game.

 

[Thrand Graywolf]

LOL no they weren't, UO's population count did not start to decline until AFTER Trammel

It was AOS that killed the population. After the Trammel split it grew a great deal. If Felucca is such a great place...why is it pretty much empty?

They had to do something. What's the point to an online game where the players are too paranoid to talk to anybody new? Personally, I think their mistake wasn't creating Trammel, it was keeping Fel. PVP within the guild war system can be quite fun, even in Trammel. And at least within a guild war, if you are sure someone is being...creatively enhanced...you can boot em.

We tried the "player policing" route. Sure, you can kill the troublemakers, but in those days all they needed was a bag of regs to cause trouble. No matter how many times you kill em, they could be right back again with no real loss. Sooner or later, it just gets old having to deal with them. The only way any kind of player policing can work is if there are real consequences to doing something bad...and it's very hard to do that with pure anonymity.

Yeah, there's jerks in Trammel, but you can just put them on your ignore list and forget about em.

 

[Thrand Graywolf]

The blues never helped anyone, they just wanted to pk without losing noto.

Yeah they did...at least on LS.

There were blues who hid behind being blue, and some reds that went red because they did the right thing and just had to take a count for it and didn't mind.

But some of the "anti" guilds on LS went out of their way to help others. It could be really hilarious to have a few friends hiding in the woods next to a miner waiting for some jerk to come along and try to steal his ore.

 

[Draxous]

OSI was losing it's subscribers en masse.

LOL no they weren't, UO's population count did not start to decline until AFTER Trammel (see http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). UO pre Ren was a healthy game on the rise, no matter what spin some people try and put on it.

Like the spin you're putting on it?

Looking at that chart, I see the following facts...

1. UO was starting to plateau pre-ren, probably from people leaving because of PKs matching the numbers of new players.

Where in the heck did you get this BS from?

You see it starting to plateau pre-ren? lol!!!

What I see, is that with-in ONE YEAR of Trammels release... Ultima Online's subscriptions plateau. With-in ONE YEAR!!! How great! Not speculating... but ACTUALLY plateauing... yeah, trammel really did this game a favor, NOT.

But, since we're speculating, lets also speculate the jump in subscriptions because of UORs release was in order to place a house plot since at the very same time they added UOR, they restricted house placement to one house per shard per account. (The same kind of jump I see at Age of Sorrows, when they made it one house per account... period.)

How about those facts?

The truth of the matter is that the very few people we lost to getting fed-up with PKs there was many many more who were joining because they enjoyed the player interactions and community this game offered, which no other could emulate.

The end.

 

[SAVATAGE]

ya know...... when i kill someone in fel... i RARELY talk to them... maybe ill say GF... or gimp template...... but... thats it

 

[ColterDC]

If Felucca is such a great place...why is it pretty much empty?

Go look at the top 10 guild list on uo.com. If Fel is so empty and no one plays there, why are most of the large guilds Fel based guilds?

I've seen 50+ player fights in Fel. I see large groups of Fel players coordinating events and other activities.

On the flip side, I rarely see a group of more than 5 Tram players working together towards a single goal.

So, remind me again which group is the anti-social one?

 

[Sneaky Que]

Go look at the top 10 guild list on uo.com. If Fel is so empty and no one plays there, why are most of the large guilds Fel based guilds?

I've seen 50+ player fights in Fel. I see large groups of Fel players coordinating events and other activities.

On the flip side, I rarely see a group of more than 5 Tram players working together towards a single goal.

So, remind me again which group is the anti-social one?

So very true.

 

[phantus]

Go look at the top 10 guild list on uo.com. If Fel is so empty and no one plays there, why are most of the large guilds Fel based guilds?

You know the answer to this. So does everyone else. It's not because people in fel are social. It's because large number are needed for dominance. Don't try to make it something that it's clearly not.

That's not to say there isn't life in felucca. The only time you see the number of tram players in the same spot as a general harry is when there is an event. Then again the chance for a big fight will bring the whole felucca community together in one place.

 

[Redxpanda]

There are still some honorable reds. The PK guilds for the most part will kill you and give you back stuff that you lose (Although with insurance, it's never anything they cared for). They are still not bad people when they aren't killing you. It's the other ones that are jerks.

 

[MissEcho]

I play in fel probably for 50-60% of my game, I rarely get pk'd as I do not frequent any gates or spawn places, and mostly if I do, very rarely that might be, come in contact with a red, depending on what char I am in will retaliate if attacked or leave. However the OP is correct, at lot are just plain immature kids and seem to have a total lack of respect for anyone in the type of language and attitude displayed. Most are enough to turn away most 'normal' players totally away from playing in fel.

But for all the arguments here, about how Trammel wrecked the game, well it is simple:

We have Trammel, we have Felucca.

Each player has the choice to play whichever facet they like, in fact they can play both reds and blues so not miss out on any facet, land masses, events etc, it is up to them. No person is limited to one character. As for we 'have' to have blues to go to those other places, well why would you want to? For items? to pvm? you can't kill people there so that must be the attraction.... hmmm so in other words to do the 'trammie' thing?

Where do the majority play?

If everyone so wanted the Felucca ruleset the place would be teaming with players, and siege would be bursting at the seems with housing and players.

People VOTE with the characters they create and the facet they play. So all the 'trammel wrecked fel' players you need to ask yourself, if fel was what the majority of players wanted to play then why aren't they there? If fel was the absolute best way to play UO why did the majority leave? Is it that most people had had enough?

The reason Trammel was created was due to people having enough of the kill fest that was going on at the expense of the whole game. Live with it. Back then if the mob mentality hadn't taken over and some respect was shown, perhaps there wouldn't of been the need for trammel.

There is an old saying "You don't **** in your own nest"

Unfortunately, this age old adage wasn't adhered to and as soon as people had the choice, there was a total surge to escape to a UO where people could actually enjoy themselves and not constantly put up with others totally forcing their playstyle on them.

Felucca was NEVER taken away, it is still there last time I looked, it is just that the majority of players elected to give it a miss.

Like I said, I play a lot in Felucca, I have a Castle in Fel. Do I partake in pvp, only if I get attacked and defend myself, which I might say does not always result in my death, some of these big bad reds haven't got a clue, they probably went red killing a blue guildy over and over again so they could get a 'murderer' title.

Enough said.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Where do the majority play?

If everyone so wanted the Felucca ruleset the place would be teaming with players, and siege would be bursting at the seems with housing and players.

People VOTE with the characters they create and the facet they play. So all the 'trammel wrecked fel' players you need to ask yourself, if fel was what the majority of players wanted to play then why aren't they there? If fel was the absolute best way to play UO why did the majority leave? Is it that most people had had enough?

Your right they did leave, the game, after it was ruined for them, they were then replaced by the Trammies. The game was changed, and its player base changed too.

The reason Trammel was created was due to people having enough of the kill fest that was going on at the expense of the whole game. Live with it. Back then if the mob mentality hadn't taken over and some respect was shown, perhaps there wouldn't of been the need for trammel.

Trammel was created because EA panicked, we all know this, even Garriot left EA only months before Ren was released. There was no need for Trammel, I say again that UO was a healthy game with a steadily increasing player base, t2a was a huge success (its still the most well received expansion). Why did EA panic? Because EQ overtook UO as the MMO with the most subscribers, and instead of letting Origin continue to do the good work they were doing with the game (see t2a), they made them produce a cheap, half hearted and poorly thought through expansion called Ren.

Unfortunately, this age old adage wasn't adhered to and as soon as people had the choice, there was a total surge to escape to a UO where people could actually enjoy themselves and not constantly put up with others totally forcing their playstyle on them.

Felucca was NEVER taken away, it is still there last time I looked, it is just that the majority of players elected to give it a miss.

Felucca/Trammel were created. Britannia was forever destroyed. Fel can never be the same or compensate for Britannia. Anyone who played back then would understand that the community was just so much 'tighter' (for lack of a better term), the towns were all populated instead of just Luna etc...

Like I said, I play a lot in Felucca, I have a Castle in Fel. Do I partake in pvp, only if I get attacked and defend myself, which I might say does not always result in my death, some of these big bad reds haven't got a clue, they probably went red killing a blue guildy over and over again so they could get a 'murderer' title.

Enough said.

Really? I have not seen you in fel for quite some time and I PvP all the time as you know... Oceania is not a big shard lol

 

[Asmodai]

I used to play in Trammel and Fel. I had houses on both facets. I have also been around long enough to remember when there was only one facet.

When Trammel came into being the whole "care bear" ages old arguements surfaced. I still played in Fel and Trammel and respected both facets for what they were.

There was a time in Fel, even after the facet split, where honor was still alive. Don't get me wrong, I saw griefers "and no-holds barred" PKs, but there was also a sence of competition and respect.

Over the past week on my server, I have yet to meet one red person that could say I respected. The language is amazing. "You got owned n**ger*". Nice. It's like everyone lost their civility. I don't mind dieing or getting PKed. But what happened to people? What happened to Fel?

I have been gone 5 years and I return to this? How sad if this is what Fel has become.

You can spin the Fel/Tram split any way you want. It was caused by the type of red that I see now in Felucca. Had people had a little more civility and respect, well..... who knows. Really sad.

Felluca is fine. ive been playing there for like 8 years now - no blues. It's a matter of meeting people. Best way to do this join a guild and get to know people. Of course people will destroy some unknown newb. People like you will get beaten down daily until you join a guild, meet some people, and get to be known as part of the community.

You talk about respect? you need to earn respect in felluca. it's not just given to you on a plate. You trammies want everything so easy!

 

[Canucklehead73]

Well, I agree this is a bit of the beating of a dead horse...

But I have to comment on some points.

To the OP, yeah there are too many poor sports in UO right now, but as the game sits fel is a PVP facet and you cannot really expect much more than that. Part of the PvP is trash talking. Sonoma has a problem with a bunch of players right now who instigate verbal attacks simply to page/ban you when you respond in kind. Lame but avoidable.

As for some of the posters who say the jerks reside in Fel and other posters who say they find the jerks in Tram, guess what? Its the SAME JERK! They are not held to one facet or one character... Just because you find a player in fel or tram doesnt make them a felluccan or a trammie...

And the ppl tossing around ideas like tram killing UO... You really think EA/UO are that stupid? Your trying to tell everyone that they took a game with rising subs and changed it to a game with dwindling subs? they are there to make money! the only reason to change your business model is because nobody is buying... It's not rocket science. It's business.

Yeah EA is going to keep UO as it is because it made waaay more money when it was a free for all (pre-tram), just because they are dumb? Do the math... UO is as it is because it makes more money in this form. It's a bigger market.

What is a better version? That is up to personal preference really...

But I will close with this, for the most part in my experience, players against trammel will pretty much say anything, and agree with each other vigorously, like thier opinions will become facts this way. Trammel supporters will do this too but more often than not those opposed to tram will be the selfish ones with blinders on imho... (see SP posters)

 

[Erekose]

As with many things in life, it's a loud minority of pvp'ers who create the image that Fel is filled with nothing but jerks. Most reds I know are ok people. I've even run into random reds and had nice chats with them, then either go off on our ways or fight. Sadly, running into random people in Fel is getting to be rarer and rarer. Seems like on Legends at least they are all either hugging the Yew gate, doing a spawn or raid, or just sitting in their houses.

 

[Eslake]

LOL no they weren't, UO's population count did not start to decline until AFTER Trammel (see http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). UO pre Ren was a healthy game on the rise, no matter what spin some people try and put on it.

Oh really? Funny, since OSI's releases stopped giving subscription statistics long before that.

If you seriously belive that the split caused people to leave "en masse" explain these things to me...

#1 - If people were leaving AFTER the split, why had shard openings stopped for nearly a year before, but started up again AFTER?

#2 - Why did OSI actually state on the forums (their Own forums at the time, not Stratics') that they had to either do something about new accounts canceling within their first month, or UO would FAIL?
(Don't you remember the long essay on why we pay subscriptions and how the retail box was not a lasting source of revenue?)

#3 - If Tram was so unpopular it made these masses leave, why did more than 90% of the entire game end up on that facet of every shard? (Again, their own numbers)

It saved the game, plain and simple. Like it or don't it doesn't change the truth of it. Read some of the interviews with RG about UO's failing state. It HAD to have a no-PvP option or it would have died out.

(IMO they should have seperated it completely tho, no crossing back and forth, either you are in Felucca or you are in Trammel - to stay.)

 

[The Home Guild]

hahahaha[sarcasm] ...la <--whatever the **** that means.

 

[Pax]

As with many things in life, it's a loud minority of pvp'ers who create the image that Fel is filled with nothing but jerks. Most reds I know are ok people. I've even run into random reds and had nice chats with them, then either go off on our ways or fight. Sadly, running into random people in Fel is getting to be rarer and rarer. Seems like on Legends at least they are all either hugging the Yew gate, doing a spawn or raid, or just sitting in their houses.

Try the Legends Trinsic moongate area. Quite a few PvPers there, and those I've met seem to be nice guys. I have a house west of the moongate in an area where healers congregate, and I've chatted with a lot of them who come for rezzes in front of my house. They're almost 100% Reds, but they don't talk or act like griefers.

Be well - Pax

 

[Mythic]

What I was referring to, and I think its something you weren't around for, was that during the Magincia Event, there were Light and Void Demons that would blow up buildings and create "rubble", which people could collect and sell at insane prices, and if other people would come and try to kill the demons before they could destroy anything, they would call you all kind of names and threaten to page on you for ruining their playstyle.

That really bothered me, I was called all sorts of obscene names for trying to preserve magincia. Trammel and Insurance happined to fel

 

[Eslake]

Yeah they did...at least on LS.

There were blues who hid behind being blue, and some reds that went red because they did the right thing and just had to take a count for it and didn't mind.

But some of the "anti" guilds on LS went out of their way to help others. It could be really hilarious to have a few friends hiding in the woods next to a miner waiting for some jerk to come along and try to steal his ore.

Hear Hear! *Stayed in 2 Blue guilds long after re-placing a house in Tram on LS*
I didn't start on LS (it didn't exist yet) but moved there immediately when it came open since it had better connection. (oh boy was that the wrong reason later!)

There will always be things I miss about the Pre-Ren game era. And honestly, being PKd creatively is one of them. After the system went in, Noto PKs were coming up with some outrageous ways to get you to flag.

Getting ganked (even 3 on 1) on my miner never bothered me much. It was the emoted corpse **** and things like that afterward that I never had a taste for. Being called a Noob by a group of 3 that just proved their superior combat skills by slaughtering a defensless miner was just humorous.
Having to learn a 6th language (133T) didn't help matters either.


Thes days I play on SP and LS. But more and more I find myself on LS.

The PvP era is simply over IMO.
They tried for a few years to "Balance" PvP. The best success was the round robin system, where Fencers beat Swords beat Mages beat Archers beat Fencers.. or similar.
PvP stopped being particularly fun or even interesting, when they abandoned that in favor of "Lets pick a template to overpower for 4 months, then nerf it and pick another."

What is fun about a system that has nothing to do with skill anymore, but everything to do with ones willingness to retrain to the new Uber Template every few months? Even then the only test of skill is when you face another with the same template.


Wow, off topic enough?

 

[Surgeries]

That is true, but there were only 3 other MMOs out at that time. UO could have lost quite a bit more and faster had Trammel not been introduced. I am pretty sure I would not still be here.

QFT.

 

[Draxous]

That is true, but there were only 3 other MMOs out at that time. UO could have lost quite a bit more and faster had Trammel not been introduced. I am pretty sure I would not still be here.

QFT.

To highlight the truth that has no actual facts for support.

Good to know the truth.

 

[Omnius]

It's actually the player base of all UO has declined in civility. Simply put, they took the mature label off so all the bad parents out there let their poorly raised children run amuck rather than better behaved children playing nice along side folks of all ages. I can't go to luna to sell something without 5 people cursing each other out non stop. it's sad when this is what UO has come to. On pacific, the trash running around the entire shard ostracize harmless roleplayers that aren't even talking to them. The result is the rp population is down 1 guy dressed as an orc and a bunch of newbs running their mouths holding once a year events claiming to rp.

 

[Stigmatas]

I don't want to get into the old arguement that will never have a solution Rico. I was opposed to Trammel when it was introduced. But I remember why it had to happen. OSI was losing it's subscribers en masse. It was becoming so you could not leave a town without a fight and a serious loss of gear. I knew PKs back then that fought with integrity and honor. They lived for the battle. And then I knew PKs who just wanted to grief. They wanted people to get upset. They became the majority among the PvPers and forced the designers to do something. That and available housing....

But we are to argue this.

You see, when Tramm was introduced, most of the decent players went there, and left most of the griefing ding bats, in Fel. That's what it is, a split. Griefers who want to lord it over people to make up for their shortcomings in real life, vs. people who want to play the game and enjoy it. To follow that thought to it's end, it's not even really about pvp vs. no pvp.

Take Rico for example. Watch his posting habits. Trolling. Name calling. Saying everyone in Trammel is a crybaby. He and dozens on this board like him fit the MO perfectly. You can tell who they are just by watching posting habits. I bet they are a pleasure in game too. They are the reason for Trammel, and now all they can do is grief the boards

Sure pvp is fun. But without all the crap talking and hacking and cheating. Which is what you will find in Fel all the time now, and half the time "back in the day". Enter the creation of Trammel. Then the Fushie's will argue that you will find lots of griefers in Trammel. Of course being in the know, most of those you will find are the ones from "across the gate", playing in Trammel that day for whatever reason.

I've seen the game evolve from day one. 11 years later, not much has changed on the attitudes of the players....really. You have always had those with differences of opinion and those who want to ruin other's gameplay for fun. Name calling, rez killing...harassment.

Don't blame the game...blame the players.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Take Rico for example.

Yay!!! Personal attacks? *taps foot*

*hopes mods take note of this*

...la

 

[Stigmatas]

Heh, I think the point is to avoid the jerks. Not go find them.

He...won't.....get.....it......

 

[Stigmatas]

Yay!!! Personal attacks? *taps foot*

*hopes mods take note of this*

...la

Oh please, I'm merely pointing out the fact of how you post. Your constant labeling of people as crybaby's ...and just about every other post in any thread is a troll. I'm just here to prove a point.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Yay!!! Personal attacks? *taps foot*

*hopes mods take note of this*

...la

Oh please, I'm merely pointing out the fact of how you post. Your constant labeling of people as crybaby's ...and just about every other post in any thread is a troll. I'm just here to prove a point.

Because those are your impressions of my posting style doesn't mean a thing. They are not true, and thus, you might as well be stating I am a scammer...la

 

[Surgeries]

To highlight the truth that has no actual facts for support.

Good to know the truth.

Your "Truth" is pure speculation, and skewed logic. You wouldn't know real truth because yours is covered in

Period. And everyone with a brain in their head knows it.

Your posts demonstrate that you are unable to comprehend it. Completely and utterly.

The REAL truth is 8 YEARS...Eight YEARS of Trammel...and all the facets it comprises.

How many Fel facets you got, there, Bucky? Your "Trends" seem to not pan out...

I will go play in...Trammel...no...Doom...No Tokuno Islands...No...Illshenar...

You go play in...um...yeah...Fel.


Pump that. I know I will.

Have a great day! And enjoy your "Truth".

 

[Draxous]

Yay!!! Personal attacks? *taps foot*

*hopes mods take note of this*

...la

Oh please, I'm merely pointing out the fact of how you post. Your constant labeling of people as crybaby's ...and just about every other post in any thread is a troll. I'm just here to prove a point.

Oh please? Exactly what point were you trying to make?

You see, when Tramm was introduced, most of the decent players went there, and left most of the griefing ding bats, in Fel. That's what it is, a split. Griefers who want to lord it over people to make up for their shortcomings in real life, vs. people who want to play the game and enjoy it.

Funny. Your sweeping accusations and asinine assumptions are seriously uncalled for.

You're no better than the people you complain about, good job! Go ahead and lump some more decent people into your generalizations and reply with more BS telling us how much you've enjoyed ragging on a playstyle you'll never understand nor ever be able to handle.

Go play a ps3 or something. Interacting with other people is obviously much, much more than you can handle.

 

[Draxous]

To highlight the truth that has no actual facts for support.

Good to know the truth.

Your "Truth" is pure speculation, and skewed logic. You wouldn't know real truth because yours is covered in

Period. And everyone with a brain in their head knows it.

Your posts demonstrate that you are unable to comprehend it. Completely and utterly.

The REAL truth is 8 YEARS...Eight YEARS of Trammel...and all the facets it comprises.

How many Fel facets you got, there, Bucky? Your "Trends" seem to not pan out...

I will go play in...Trammel...no...Doom...No Tokuno Islands...No...Illshenar...

You go play in...um...yeah...Fel.


Pump that. I know I will.

Have a great day! And enjoy your "Truth".

?

It's painfully obvious your brain is overheating due to being unable to argue intelligently any further.

When you've cooled down, perhaps you might come back with something to contribute (I somehow doubt it tho.)

The economy in UO is run by Felucca, whether its items for PvP or items from PvP. - Fact

Trammel killed player interaction, community and interdependency... - Fact

UO's playerbase growth plateaued and began to decline with-in one year of Trammels release. - Fact

UO's playerbase has steadily shrunk since Trammel was put in. - Fact


The absolute number one thing that players say they missed about pre-trammel Ultima Online is community which can only be found on the one shard left without the trammel facet. - Fact

There was no overall positive effect of adding that facet to the already existing ones in this game. - Fact


Now feel free to continue the insults and personal attacks its usually what I expect when you have no facts to make an argument. Hmmm, becoming a bit more clear why you always seem to resort to them when posting here.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Oh really? Funny, since OSI's releases stopped giving subscription statistics long before that.

If you seriously belive that the split caused people to leave "en masse" explain these things to me...

#1 - If people were leaving AFTER the split, why had shard openings stopped for nearly a year before, but started up again AFTER?

Wow, please check your facts before posting, Oceania (the last shard to be opened pre-Ren) was created in Jan 2000, Ren was released in May 2000 (5 months apart).

#2 - Why did OSI actually state on the forums (their Own forums at the time, not Stratics') that they had to either do something about new accounts canceling within their first month, or UO would FAIL?
(Don't you remember the long essay on why we pay subscriptions and how the retail box was not a lasting source of revenue?)

As I said above...

Trammel was created because EA panicked, we all know this, even Garriot left EA only months before Ren was released. There was no need for Trammel, I say again that UO was a healthy game with a steadily increasing player base, t2a was a huge success (its still the most well received expansion). Why did EA panic? Because EQ overtook UO as the MMO with the most subscribers, and instead of letting Origin continue to do the good work they were doing with the game (see t2a), they made them produce a cheap, half hearted and poorly thought through expansion called Ren.

#3 - If Tram was so unpopular it made these masses leave, why did more than 90% of the entire game end up on that facet of every shard? (Again, their own numbers)

A. Land rush for housing (this happens with every expansion where housing is available).
B. It was EASIER to play the game in Trammel (no thats not a good thing).
C. Many people who preferred pre-Ren UO quit, in fact masses quit (I know because I was there and lost many friends because of this), they were replaced in Trammel by a new sort of UO player, the Trammie.

It saved the game, plain and simple. Like it or don't it doesn't change the truth of it. Read some of the interviews with RG about UO's failing state. It HAD to have a no-PvP option or it would have died out.

No, Tram did not save UO, it changed UO. I say again for the thousandth time, UO was a healthy game pre-Ren with an increasing player base, in fact there were more people playing UO pre-Ren than there is playing UO right NOW (on the real shards anyway).

If you need proof of pre-Ren UO's popularity all you need to do is have a look at the free shards that are t2a only shards and how extremely popular they are. Obviously I cant provide evidence of this due to Stratics' TOS, however it is very easy to find for yourself.

(IMO they should have seperated it completely tho, no crossing back and forth, either you are in Felucca or you are in Trammel - to stay.)

[/quote]

Yes, I tend to agree with this, either leaving the game as it was or making separate PvE only shards with only Trammel would of been 100000000000000% better than the monumental stuff up that Ren was.

 

[Surgeries]

?

It's painfully obvious your brain is overheating due to being unable to argue intelligently any further.

When you've cooled down, perhaps you might come back with something to contribute (I somehow doubt it tho.)

The economy in UO is run by Felucca, whether its items for PvP or items from PvP. - Fact

Trammel killed player interaction, community and interdependency... - Fact

UO's playerbase growth plateaued and began to decline with-in one year of Trammels release. - Fact

UO's playerbase has steadily shrunk since Trammel was put in. - Fact


The absolute number one thing that players say they missed about pre-trammel Ultima Online is community which can only be found on the one shard left without the trammel facet. - Fact

There is no overall positive effect of adding that facet to the already existing ones in this game. - Fact


Now feel free to continue the insults and personal attacks its usually what I expect when you have no facts to make an argument. Hmmm, becoming a bit more clear why you always seem to resort to them when posting here.

No need to resort to personal attacks...I don't do those, normally.

Your LOGIC...not YOU...are skewed. Your POSTS are drivel...I am sure you are a very likeable person, yourself.

Your arguments just suck azz. They aren't even arguments. They are half recalled half truths that are seasoned by what you like personally in a game, and not by reality.

They are quarter truths, or less.

The facts are simple, really.

And what you quote as Facts are just your opinions. Real facts are backed up with solid evidence...like eight years worth.

Anyone can see that...well...except you.

To you they are facts. You believe them.

We all get that.

'Tis a shame you don't.