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Very Near the End

Is the game at a potential point to be closed down?


  • Total voters
    102

celticus

Babbling Loonie
I have playing this game since may 2000 and I consider myself a Veteran. There where times where i was bored. Who wasnt? I started to Play a freeshard named UO forever which does have some nice ideas. But when it comes to down to the nitty gritty i am still here! The freeshard name "UOForever" should also apply here!
Yep..Lots of Stealing, PKing, ability to steal your pet from you, buying a island from the game folks for $300-700 USD, buying gear from the game people for lots of US$. Also everyone or almost everyone there is a PK'er and or a thief, and have siege rules to some extent, so thy go around stealthing near naked, the main thing is getting some high value items like "relic" to upgrade pets, and making "meta pets" with diff colors that cost a ton. Main skills to develop there are stealth, hiding, stealing, snooping. I think the ideas for pets is ok, but very frustrating if you have paid $200 USD for a "meta pet" and it just got stolen from you. I guess this may be appealing to some, but no thanks!
 

celticus

Babbling Loonie
Yep..Lots of Stealing, PKing, ability to steal your pet from you, buying a island from the game folks for $300-700 USD, buying gear from the game people for lots of US$. Also everyone or almost everyone there is a PK'er and or a thief, and have siege rules to some extent, so thy go around stealthing near naked, the main thing is getting some high value items like "relic" to upgrade pets, and making "meta pets" with diff colors that cost a ton. Main skills to develop there are stealth, hiding, stealing, snooping. I think the ideas for pets is ok, but very frustrating if you have paid $200 USD for a "meta pet" and it just got stolen from you. I guess this may be appealing to some, but no thanks!
If you enjoy adrenaline rushes, anxiety, frustration and anger, UOForever is for you! Such a nice Freeshard. By the way it is not free at all : Unless you enjoy being minced meat every step of t he way there, it costs lots more to play there than UO, upwards from $300 USD per year to maybe lots more if you want the upper gear that you will likely need to buy..:devil:
 

Shiranui Renn

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I'd done just about everything else. Vanity mode (decorating houses) doesn't appeal to me. So most of the games other content is pointless to me. I already explained why the current state of PvP in the game is the real problem, but I won't go into that again here. I'll just say that I had people stealing hours of my time, every night after work. I put up with that for more than a month (I lost maybe 40 hours of farming time). I want to experience that content, but it was not possible. So, if I cannot do the things I want, might as well quit.
That's utterly ********.

If you just want to experience the content "champ spawns" you could have done the PvM version without being forced into PvP. You won't get any scrolls out of it but everything else is the exact same.

My opinion on this is that you didn't like to invest time into PvM content to get enough gold to buy the scrolls. You thought it would be easier to get the scrolls from champ spawns. But you realized that you just suck at PvP and got salty up to the point where you rage quit the game. Am I right?
 

Capt. Lucky

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
I believe we were told that Mesanna will be the LAST UO Producer... I am not sure... she's at least as old if not slightly more so than me... so no matter what happens 10 to 15 years is probably about all we will get... and I'm not sure how well she is anymore health wise but that's something to keep in mind.

Granted I should hope they would reconsider that and make Kyronix the producer should Mesanna ever have to step down... but you never know... and if she did Misk would probably go with her.
They're just assuming UO will end before she does lol
 

petemage

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
I believe we were told that Mesanna will be the LAST UO Producer... I am not sure... she's at least as old if not slightly more so than me... so no matter what happens 10 to 15 years is probably about all we will get... and I'm not sure how well she is anymore health wise but that's something to keep in mind.
Same day when we were told the new account management will be ready soon :)
 

Theo_GL

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Why are people so offended by this? I'm just curious. I was a returning player, played on and off since beta, and I canceled my sub after about 1 month. My issue? I got tired of being PKd as I worked for Power Scrolls. I dealt with that every night for a month. So, I canceled. To me, this is worse than the previous times I subbed. Also, I noted that server pop was REALLY low on Great Lakes, which is the 2nd most populated shard from what I read.

Side note: I deleted all my chars, house, and gave everything away. My only regret? I released an absolutely awesome Disco Cu Side. I put a month's worth of work into him. Just got sick of getting PKd over and over. The suggestions I got were to spend a bunch of time fighting them, or do something else. (I've literally done everything else over the years) /meh
Thats weird. I solo champs on GL all the time. Its about what time of day and which champs you do. I get raided about 1 out of 4 at best.

You could always work champs on a less populated shard and xshard the scrolls over. I've done that as well. Or team up with someone like me and do the champs in 1/2 the time and split the rewards.
 

Theo_GL

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Thanks for this insight. I have to agree with you. So numbers are probably a little higher than I had originally stated, but not too far off. Maybe 8,000-10,000 active accounts? How many houses does a shard hold? I think the only server loaded to the max is probably Atlantic.

Edit: As to the second part of your example. I've seen this play out in a restaurant before. You cater/pander to an older crowd, while never doing anything to bring in other people. Then your customer base slowly dies off and you go out of business.
How many houses a shard holds depends on how densely packed and what type of houses. Some shards are Castle and Keep only - some shards like ATL can be all sizes wedged in.

For giggles I ran around Lake Superior - a dead shard. 45 houses in the luna ring along - another 50 houses within 1-2 screens of luna. Thats 100 right here. Assume another 50-75 castles in Tram. Assume another 25 castle keeps on ice isle. Assume another 50 houses near other cities like umbra etc Then figgure fel castles and keeps for another 75 and even dead shards are likely counting easily 400 houses minimum per shard plus the random regular houses scattered about. I think 500 per dead shard is pretty accurate with GL probably counting something like 1k houses and ATL more like 3k.

The days of grandfathered accounts holding more than one house are pretty gone. There are single people holding multiple accounts tho. There is some person I've heard of having 49 accounts. Thats 49 houses but they can only play 1 char at a time. But all those accounts are generating revenue. I think thats completely mental becuase thats like $500 a month. You could have a vacation house for that but whatever.
 

Capt. Lucky

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
How many houses a shard holds depends on how densely packed and what type of houses. Some shards are Castle and Keep only - some shards like ATL can be all sizes wedged in.

For giggles I ran around Lake Superior - a dead shard. 45 houses in the luna ring along - another 50 houses within 1-2 screens of luna. Thats 100 right here. Assume another 50-75 castles in Tram. Assume another 25 castle keeps on ice isle. Assume another 50 houses near other cities like umbra etc Then figgure fel castles and keeps for another 75 and even dead shards are likely counting easily 400 houses minimum per shard plus the random regular houses scattered about. I think 500 per dead shard is pretty accurate with GL probably counting something like 1k houses and ATL more like 3k.

The days of grandfathered accounts holding more than one house are pretty gone. There are single people holding multiple accounts tho. There is some person I've heard of having 49 accounts. Thats 49 houses but they can only play 1 char at a time. But all those accounts are generating revenue. I think thats completely mental becuase thats like $500 a month. You could have a vacation house for that but whatever.
We have a vacation summer cottage at it costs a fortune compared to the 2 months I spend there every year lol
 

Cinderella

Sage
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Awards
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i have been hearing for years about how Trammel killed pvp. I have to disagree, cause when i started, it was before Stygian Abyss came out. And pvp was thriving...
And the shard i play, had lot of pvp going on. My cousin was guild leader for a bit and she was allied with her boyfriends guild. He was constantly killing me and looting my body. I felt violated and hated logging in each day. To this day, when I see a red name tag appear, I feel that same panic. I am so glad that guild members and alliance members can't loot you any moore... So glad I'm not in that kind of guild any more.
I hate that they did make the power scrolls only obtainable in fel. I wish they would make them drop from Shadowguard, Medusa, Stygian Dragon, Zipactiotl, Mrymidex Queen... but let them only be 105s & 110s. If you have to, make them shard bound (I would like this if they can be added to scrollbinders, not sure if you can though)
===========
I keep hearing people say shards are dead. I have heard it in reference to my home shard. Back in the day, my shard was highly populated, you would be lucky to find a spot to place. Now there are a few spots to place a keep, and if lucky to place a castle... By no means is my shard dead. There is people playing, just nowhere near the population that it once was.
There are many reasons why people have stopped playing over the years... finances, being deployed overseas, not enough time to play, people tired of being pk'd... the list goes on and on... and then there are the ones we have lost...
The one thing about UO is the community. If you are trying to do everything on your own, then you are missing out on some great friendships... The guild I am in, we are not just friends, we are family. We do things together and help each other out. It doesn't matter how much time you have to play, its the enjoyment you get out of it... We have nightly guild events but can and will get together during the day or night... all shards have close communities and would be happy to share the joys of our UO world... you just have to reach out.


(I was typing all this when your post was closed on the official forum)

I do not like to pvp and will never be someone who will ever like it. That's my playstyle and its not about to change. There is lot to do in this game besides going to champ spawns. And like other people have stated there are many other ways of creating the funds to get the power scrolls that you need.

After the first castle and keep contest, I was in a frantic thinking it would take me a while to get the funds to be able to convert. It was easier than I thought it would be. There were things in my possession that I had no idea of its value. I just hadn't bothered to do a vendor search to see how much the stuff sells for. And now that I do know what sells, I can spend my time doing that content, rather than doing content that I don't want to do....
=====================

a shard may look dead to you, but there is always people around. When I play in CC, I usually see when someone chats in General Chat. While in EC, the chat system is different, so I don't always see when someone speaks. I will respond when someone speaks, if they do so in a polite tone.
 

Cyrah

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The llamas have not packed their treasures. They have not researched other kingdoms nor obtained maps of those. They are still here. The end is not even close.

{ To the person who thinks Lake Superior is dead I know why. You can no longer sell keeps for high prices to unsuspecting returning players! aww poor you...}
 

Captn Norrington

Stratics Forum Moderator
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Stratics Veteran
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This thread has been cleaned up a bit with a few posts removed. Please avoid getting into trolling wars and using personal attacks with other posters going forward. Also it's against the Stratics Rules of Conduct to name illegal free shards, as it is a form of advertising for them even if it's not intended to be.

Thanks.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Why are people so offended by this? I'm just curious.
i got this one. because predictions of the game's looming death go back to about 1 month after launch. after decades of that, we get sick of it. when this game finally does die it won't be related to posts like this.

I was a returning player, played on and off since beta, and I canceled my sub after about 1 month. My issue? I got tired of being PKd as I worked for Power Scrolls. I dealt with that every night for a month. So, I canceled. To me, this is worse than the previous times I subbed. Also, I noted that server pop was REALLY low on Great Lakes, which is the 2nd most populated shard from what I read.

Side note: I deleted all my chars, house, and gave everything away. My only regret? I released an absolutely awesome Disco Cu Side. I put a month's worth of work into him. Just got sick of getting PKd over and over. The suggestions I got were to spend a bunch of time fighting them, or do something else. (I've literally done everything else over the years) /meh
easy enough not 2b PKed. don't go to fel. do other stuff. i probably hate fel more than you but, right now, the best solution is the most obvious: don't go.
 

celticus

Babbling Loonie
Why are people so offended by this? I'm just curious. I was a returning player, played on and off since beta, and I canceled my sub after about 1 month. My issue? I got tired of being PKd as I worked for Power Scrolls. I dealt with that every night for a month. So, I canceled. To me, this is worse than the previous times I subbed. Also, I noted that server pop was REALLY low on Great Lakes, which is the 2nd most populated shard from what I read.

Side note: I deleted all my chars, house, and gave everything away. My only regret? I released an absolutely awesome Disco Cu Side. I put a month's worth of work into him. Just got sick of getting PKd over and over. The suggestions I got were to spend a bunch of time fighting them, or do something else. (I've literally done everything else over the years) /meh
About the game closing, or on its last legs, I disagree. Does not look that way.
About what happened to you the way I see it is:
You were at GL a rather low pop shard. No xfer shields to go to the mall and get PS, that would cost a ton there anyway. Your funds in game were not massive. No PS on vendor search anyways in GL.
Your choices for these PS were do the roof, the abyss for 2-3,000 hours to get a few drops so you can sell them if and when you could sell them and to who, in a low pop shard, then sell your 3-4 items you got, make 200 M to scroll 2 pets.
The only viable option including not quitting your job so you can grind new toons, UO abyss, "Roof", or even Doom gauntlet, would be either RMT sites that constitutes absolute cheating and pay to play, OR a more logical option that was going to get your own PS in Fel of all places. Then you discovered that on top of grinding the spawns, you have to contend with the PKers, and lost tons of hours of work by being PK'ed.
So this got frustrating enough and you decided to quit.
My main question here is : How many more people are quitting due to this?
Also : What would bring you back into the game? Any reasonable changes you would like to see? Any recommendations to the Devs? Unless you don't care and don't mind the game going to the dogs?
 

Uriah Heep

Grand Poobah
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I've never understood why the devs insist on protecting the income of the very few pvp'ers left. Celticus, you're spot on with the game as it stands.

Too much grind, not enough time enymore to play alla time
 

Stinky Pete

Seasoned Veteran
Governor
Supporter
UNLEASHED
I've never understood why the devs insist on protecting the income of the very few pvp'ers left. Celticus, you're spot on with the game as it stands.

Too much grind, not enough time enymore to play alla time
Nobody is protecting anyone's income. They are protecting the people who's play style revolves solely around non-consensual PvP to play the game the way they choose.

My main question here is : How many more people are quitting due to this?
None. This guy just wants easier access to high-end loot. If it wasn't power scrolls he'd be quitting because he doesn't get enough drops. He wants people to feel like the game is in danger of closing so that other people will advocate for him to be able to get stuff without having to put in the time. He has an account on the official forums so he still has a subscription, and claiming to get raided every time he goes to fel is just a blatant lie. Stop trying to play white knight and unknowingly helping this guy. You are just perpetuating the lie that stuff = fun.
 

Merth

Journeyman
Nobody is protecting anyone's income. They are protecting the people who's play style revolves solely around non-consensual PvP to play the game the way they choose.



None. This guy just wants easier access to high-end loot. If it wasn't power scrolls he'd be quitting because he doesn't get enough drops. He wants people to feel like the game is in danger of closing so that other people will advocate for him to be able to get stuff without having to put in the time. He has an account on the official forums so he still has a subscription, and claiming to get raided every time he goes to fel is just a blatant lie. Stop trying to play white knight and unknowingly helping this guy. You are just perpetuating the lie that stuff = fun.
I respect your opinion however your opinion is exactly that. Stuff is fun....to me. You are just as vocal in the opposite direction however that doesnt make you right....for me. Enjoy the game however it makes you happy!
 

Stinky Pete

Seasoned Veteran
Governor
Supporter
UNLEASHED
Though I realize that what is fun is subjective, if someone asked you why you play UO, the answer, "I like to buy trees and stuff," would most likely return an eyeroll at best. But, it has actually inspired me to question just that, so thank you!
 

Jolt

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
About the game closing, or on its last legs, I disagree. Does not look that way.
About what happened to you the way I see it is:
You were at GL a rather low pop shard. No xfer shields to go to the mall and get PS, that would cost a ton there anyway. Your funds in game were not massive. No PS on vendor search anyways in GL.
Your choices for these PS were do the roof, the abyss for 2-3,000 hours to get a few drops so you can sell them if and when you could sell them and to who, in a low pop shard, then sell your 3-4 items you got, make 200 M to scroll 2 pets.
The only viable option including not quitting your job so you can grind new toons, UO abyss, "Roof", or even Doom gauntlet, would be either RMT sites that constitutes absolute cheating and pay to play, OR a more logical option that was going to get your own PS in Fel of all places. Then you discovered that on top of grinding the spawns, you have to contend with the PKers, and lost tons of hours of work by being PK'ed.
So this got frustrating enough and you decided to quit.
My main question here is : How many more people are quitting due to this?
Also : What would bring you back into the game? Any reasonable changes you would like to see? Any recommendations to the Devs? Unless you don't care and don't mind the game going to the dogs?
The game isn't dying imminently, but it is on a slow and steady decline. Anecdotally: I return for a couple of months every year and each time it becomes slightly easier to place a slightly bigger house in a slightly better location. I don't think anyone can really dispute this, the game certainly isn't increasing in subscriber numbers.

I think there's a belief that this is because of the age of the game, but I don't think that's the issue here. Look at Runescape: it's nearly as old as UO and it's had a massive resurgence and is doing better than ever now. The indie and old school is really popular at the moment, there is fertile ground for a UO revival if it was ever going to happen.

The core problem is that the new and returning player experience is extremely poor so nobody stays for very long. The confounding factor is that the things that need to be done in order to fix the game will probably upset some of the long-term players who seem happier to watch the game slowly fade than indulge some changes to try and revitalise it.
 

Stinky Pete

Seasoned Veteran
Governor
Supporter
UNLEASHED
The core problem is that the new and returning player experience is extremely poor so nobody stays for very long.
I totally agree, but players like to hand new players a million gold or more with maybe a decent suit of armor and weapon thinking that they are helping. This is counterproductive and causes players to quit. New players should be shown the way to the UO discord server (you know the one) and be told to ask any questions there. But giving them free stuff promotes greed and laziness and should never be done. New players need objectives, when you receive decent stuff just for being new you just feel horribly overpowered which sucks the fun out of it. So I implore anyone who comes across a new player to be like, "go harvest a bag of loot for me to unravel and I'll give you 1k" or something along those lines.
 

Merth

Journeyman
What would be really nice is if someone that was savvy put together a series of videos explaining all the game features lol ya I know wishful thinking. This game has a huge learning curve that makes it very hard for a new player and even a returning player. I think that is the biggest problem getting new subs. As a returning vet getting upset about not being able to “keep up with the joneses” is another.
 

Jolt

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I totally agree, but players like to hand new players a million gold or more with maybe a decent suit of armor and weapon thinking that they are helping. This is counterproductive and causes players to quit. New players should be shown the way to the UO discord server (you know the one) and be told to ask any questions there. But giving them free stuff promotes greed and laziness and should never be done. New players need objectives, when you receive decent stuff just for being new you just feel horribly overpowered which sucks the fun out of it. So I implore anyone who comes across a new player to be like, "go harvest a bag of loot for me to unravel and I'll give you 1k" or something along those lines.
Yea, it's tricky. The problem is that the objectives should be baked into the game. I think a lot of people might find it a bit patronising to be given a token 'quest' by another player for some pocket change, even if the intention is good. What would be ideal is if new players would, simply by playing the game normally, be able to obtain items that established players genuinely desire. Maybe skeletons could have an uncommon drop of 'fortification dust' and if you collect 10 you can combine them to a powder of fortification. Or maybe imbuing ingredients could spawn with a super low drop rate (2%) on low level monsters. Maybe also skeletons could have an even lower drop of some cool rare sword with some nice traits.

More generally though, the game needs a massive amount of debloating. Different systems need to be brought together and made more coherent. There are lots of good little ideas in UO, but they're all so disparate that they just add to the bloat.

A couple of examples:

Why do we need different point systems for each dungeon? Why can't they be the same currency?
What's the point in reagents now? There isn't a single player in the same that doesn't run with 100% LRC. Why not just get rid of them and the item property?

The taming update last year, although really cool and exciting at the time, almost encapsulates everything wrong with UO. It took a normal system and added a lot of depth to it, but did it in a way that was unnecessarily complicated and confusing.

I have to say I was really disappointed with the roadmap for 2019. Does anyone really think that developing High Seas further is going to benefit the game more? And more veteran rewards?
 

Merth

Journeyman
Yea, it's tricky. The problem is that the objectives should be baked into the game. I think a lot of people might find it a bit patronising to be given a token 'quest' by another player for some pocket change, even if the intention is good. What would be ideal is if new players would, simply by playing the game normally, be able to obtain items that established players genuinely desire. Maybe skeletons could have an uncommon drop of 'fortification dust' and if you collect 10 you can combine them to a powder of fortification. Or maybe imbuing ingredients could spawn with a super low drop rate (2%) on low level monsters. Maybe also skeletons could have an even lower drop of some cool rare sword with some nice traits.

More generally though, the game needs a massive amount of debloating. Different systems need to be brought together and made more coherent. There are lots of good little ideas in UO, but they're all so disparate that they just add to the bloat.

A couple of examples:

Why do we need different point systems for each dungeon? Why can't they be the same currency?
What's the point in reagents now? There isn't a single player in the same that doesn't run with 100% LRC. Why not just get rid of them and the item property?

The taming update last year, although really cool and exciting at the time, almost encapsulates everything wrong with UO. It took a normal system and added a lot of depth to it, but did it in a way that was unnecessarily complicated and confusing.

I have to say I was really disappointed with the roadmap for 2019. Does anyone really think that developing High Seas further is going to benefit the game more? And more veteran rewards?
Regs for potions is about it...still an integral part
 

A Cat

Visitor
i got this one. because predictions of the game's looming death go back to about 1 month after launch. after decades of that, we get sick of it. when this game finally does die it won't be related to posts like this.

easy enough not 2b PKed. don't go to fel. do other stuff. i probably hate fel more than you but, right now, the best solution is the most obvious: don't go.
I was around back then too. You are completely wrong. No offense, but when this game was released, it was a marvel as online gaming had seen nothing like it (Hell, home internet was brand new to most people when this released!). No one thought it was dying until EQ came out, and they were right, other games have stolen most players away. The game's population has been in steady, year-over-year decline since the release of EQ. The game had over 200,000 active paying subscribers at one point (probably more). Right now it has between 5-10,000 paying accounts. Sure, the store provides added revenue, but by all standards the game is near end-of-life. After my short experience, I don't see the current dev team making any real headway (they don't understand how to move the game forward - they are clueless, imho).

That said, the results of this poll are interesting. The die hards think it'll last forever, while the seasoned players see the writing on the wall. Remember, I have probably 8 years of active subscription across 6 different accounts, all of which I had bought all expacs, etc. I still have my Beta disc. I'm a veteran of this game. I've explored most of the content over countless hours. God, probably 10,000 hours played. My last struggle was not being able to farm scrolls without being griefed to no end. I can reasonably tell you, this is the worst it's ever been.

Also, I'm checking out Black Desert Online per the other person in this threads experience. I've moved on, but felt that my countless hours and years of history were worth sharing. I have more play time than many of you, hell I've probably spent more money on this game too! I can restart a new character if they fix the game, I just doubt they will after 20 years of totally failing to understand what people want in a game.
 
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MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
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I was around back then too. You are completely wrong. No offense, but when this game was released, it was a marvel as online gaming had seen nothing like it (Hell, home internet was brand new to most people when this released!). No one thought it was dying until EQ came out, and they were right, other games have stolen most players away. The game's population has been in steady, year-over-year decline since the release of EQ. The game had over 200,000 active paying subscribers at one point (probably more). Right now it has between 5-10,000 paying accounts. Sure, the store provides added revenue, but by all standards the game is near end-of-life. After my short experience, I don't see the current dev team making any real headway (they don't understand how to move the game forward - they are clueless, imho).

That said, the results of this poll are interesting. The die hards think it'll last forever, while the seasoned players see the writing on the wall. Remember, I have probably 8 years of active subscription across 6 different accounts, all of which I had bought all expacs, etc. I still have my Beta disc. I'm a veteran of this game. I've explored most of the content over countless hours. God, probably 10,000 hours played. My last struggle was not being able to farm scrolls without being griefed to no end. I can reasonably tell you, this is the worst it's ever been.

Also, I'm checking out Black Desert Online per the other person in this threads experience. I've moved on, but felt that my countless hours and years of history were worth sharing. I have more play time than many of you, hell I've probably spent more money on this game too! I can restart a new character if they fix the game, I just doubt they will after 20 years of totally failing to understand what people want in a game.
It's a fun game @A Cat you may enjoy it .... certainly a heck of a lot more appealing to look at...

I've put 19 years into UO... and watching it die like it is IMO right now is painful.
 

A Cat

Visitor
It's a fun game @A Cat you may enjoy it .... certainly a heck of a lot more appealing to look at...

I've put 19 years into UO... and watching it die like it is IMO right now is painful.
I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. 19 years is a long time! You are certainly more resilient than I am! I stop playing due to life demands though. I always found ways to enjoy UO. It's just that my recent experience is pathetic when you consider the countless other games that offer a better experience.

Why did I come back? UO is still Unique in the world it provides, and in how you interact with it. Still no other game is quite similar. The PvP aspect is not very good in UO, never was, and has nothing to do with my own good feelings about the game. I enjoyed the hell out of all the little additions over the years. Now that I am forced to fight PvPers or endlessly farm gold to buy scrolls (which really only makes my character more powerful to experience the same content I've already done) what's the point?

My biggest surprise? I was griefed on the forums, much like being PKd in the game, by moderators and other players. It's like the griefing never ends.

Thanks for letting me vent my thoughts stratics. You guys rock!

Edit: I wanted to add, that it's strange that the official forum has fewer users than the unofficial forum. TIme for moderators to get the boot? I think so.
 

Fizzleton

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Well, the main reason for quitting is a bit pathetic, in my opinion.

Fel is for PvP, and PK is PvP. Period. If you go to Fel, you sign a contract stating "I accept that other players may kill me ingame". This is since the beginning of UO one of its core features: Risk versus reward.

I do, for example, treasure chests in fel. Gives a 1000 luck bump = better chances on nice items. I understand that I don't have to complain if I get pk'ed this way. Could have stayed in Tram. Getting these chests gives me a better feeling though. Enriches my game experience.

Trying to do champ spawns solo is one thing - champ spawns were never meant to be done solo, but since all gear evolved this is (sadly) possible now. So the last remaining danger is not the champ spawn anymore, it is the pk. I remember days in old uo times (2008/9 I think) when I was working champ spawns with ndk guild in Europa, or (prefered) raided champ spawns with ndk. Man, these were times when the gates of hell opened! In came this guild, and that guild, and another, and on teamspeak you tried to keep track on what was happening and what you should do next. THIS were champ spawns! Battles that took for hours! Corpses of players everywhere. Now that you REALLY want to try (and can even do) champ spawns with a single sampire and EVEN THINK, you should get away with the scrolls since you WORKED SOOOO HARD for them - omg. This more than anything says a lot about the status of the game.

Regards, Fizzle
 

celticus

Babbling Loonie
Well, the main reason for quitting is a bit pathetic, in my opinion.

Fel is for PvP, and PK is PvP. Period. If you go to Fel, you sign a contract stating "I accept that other players may kill me ingame". This is since the beginning of UO one of its core features: Risk versus reward.

I do, for example, treasure chests in fel. Gives a 1000 luck bump = better chances on nice items. I understand that I don't have to complain if I get pk'ed this way. Could have stayed in Tram. Getting these chests gives me a better feeling though. Enriches my game experience.

Trying to do champ spawns solo is one thing - champ spawns were never meant to be done solo, but since all gear evolved this is (sadly) possible now. So the last remaining danger is not the champ spawn anymore, it is the pk. I remember days in old uo times (2008/9 I think) when I was working champ spawns with ndk guild in Europa, or (prefered) raided champ spawns with ndk. Man, these were times when the gates of hell opened! In came this guild, and that guild, and another, and on teamspeak you tried to keep track on what was happening and what you should do next. THIS were champ spawns! Battles that took for hours! Corpses of players everywhere. Now that you REALLY want to try (and can even do) champ spawns with a single sampire and EVEN THINK, you should get away with the scrolls since you WORKED SOOOO HARD for them - omg. This more than anything says a lot about the status of the game.

Regards, Fizzle
Fizz, he is a seasoned vet in this game. Does NOT look like he is a troll at all. I think we aught to have some respect for his views. Also are you missing some of his key points? Also his concern was not getting PS for his toons. It was for PS upgrades. The very item that he was BAITED to resubscribe for : Pets and the pet "revamp". Not anything else. Do you think that a lot of the player base enjoy this PK for pet upgrades? Or do you think that most people like PVP?
There are some options/ideas offered here that could improve gameplay, and yet leave the precious white PS for toons untouched. Why is this so hard to see?
May the devs felt that non-PVP / PK players can be forced to these. Well, lots of people (most dedicated tamers likely) will not do so, and they are stuck. Can you see that this may be hurting the game's survivability going forward?
We can sit here and crap all we like about our personal experiences, and that this has been in the game since its inception, and that people want things handed to them, which is BULL, since there were not pet advancements back then. What is being conveyed is not your experiences, and what you accept, or can accept, but a larger concern about the game itself, and more people leaving or not staying their short stay here.
You got to open your eyes to the bigger picture, that includes these OTHER players, that could be in significant numbers. Also remember : A happy customer BRINGS ANOTHER ONE!
Anyways, nothing ever is going to happen so this is a waste of time. Whatever happens, let it happen I reckon.
 

Fizzleton

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Celticus, I get your point, I can share some of your thoughts, but for others I take a different view.

My main toons are tamers, so I think I understand what you are putting forward. From the perspective of the devs, pet training was a great move. Not only that they could see that a lot of players enjoyed this new feature, they also put something into the game that generated a fresh demand for power scrolls. Since mostly veterans play this game today, we all are sitting on fully developed chars with all 120 skills done and either on the toon or on soulstones; I will not have to buy a single scroll for my toons for the rest of my uo live. This was the reason why this old uo feature "champ spawns" was in decline; no-one cared much for it any more, who really wanted to buy a 110 wrestling scroll in these days? So champ spawns were done not to make money anymore, but for some "nostalgic reasons" and to trigger a reason to do "old style pvp". Now, they are done like in the "good old days" to get the scrolls again, to sell them (to tamers) and to become rich bastards again. Good move, devs, for a lot of reasons!

So on Atlantic, if you want to buy a 120 wrestling scroll, you have to pay around 25 mill at the moment, I think. A 110 scroll is about 1 mill, a 115 about 5 or 7 mill. Much money, for a tamer. What can you do?

First, to pose the question if you really need a 120 scroll. Or is it just a "must have" for some emotional reason? Of course, I know very well that there is a difference between 115 wrestling and 120 wrestling on a pet, but does this mean that a 115 wrestling pet is useless? I don't think so. It is more difficult to play, of course, but I would state that you don't need a 120 wrestling pet in an absolute manner. First point. If you take this seriously, it would mean that you get 4 115 scrolled pets for one 120 scrolled.
Second: If you really think you need those scrolls, you can either buy them, or get them yourself. Buying them means you need money. There are ways in uo to make money except for selling power scrolls. When I came back in Oct 2018, I immediately joined Halloween Khaldun event and sold things fast. I also did a lot of the Krampus stuff. I sold items for about 250 mill gold and still have a lot left to sell. And I did not have to play 24/7 to do this; ppl are so crazy and so eager to get hands on new stuff that I sold my first "First aid belt" of Khaldun event for 70 mills! Three 120 wrestling scrolls for one belt! Just play with the greed, you can make tons of cash with not much to do. There are other ways to make money; tamers can train up pets and sell them to the lazy ones, do peerless stuff, get blackthorn points, do high level treasure chests and sell good artis, etc. etc. So there are ways in uo to get the money you need to scroll your pets; and if you don't push it to the limit, you can still have some gold left.
Third: If you want to get the scrolls yourself, you can go to fel and join the "risk vs reward" game of Fel. But you should understand and know what you try, especially if you are a veteran player! YES, the champs are on the list of the pks who are patrolling them; if you go there on your own, this is most probably a bad choice, especially if you don't have a clue concerning pvp tactics. But are you helpless? No. There are a lot of ppl who were successfull in doing champs solo, not all the time, but in a lot of cases, so the issue this veteran opens up ("pk'ed over and over for months") is not where it has to end. (You will even find some of this solo-guys here on stratics, if you have a problem you can most probably get in contact with them and get some good advice. Did he try that? I doubt it). Second, if you are not able to work out such a tactic, you can team up with other players, especially guilds that do champs, or you even team up with really good pks who protect you, and you share the scrolls with them. What really does impress me is this "veteran player" putting up the claim that there should be a system in uo that should be the way he wants to have it to find a reason to play on. I don't get this. UO is sandbox, also for champ scrolls. The aim is not to change the sandbox to fit your playstyle, the aim is to adapt your playstyle to the sandbox to get what you want to get. UO has always been this way.

I really question the reason he is putting forward for leaving. I feel that he simply was done with playing uo, and the frustration about being pk'ed was just that last issue that made him leave forever. Of course this is sad, but do you really want to hold him in this game by changing the game to his expectations? To see him leave some weeks later for another frustration? And by violating other players expectations by changing this game? The PK's also have and are paying subs, don't miss that!

Last thing I want to state: I think you are right that the powerscrolls should be opened up to Tram champs, but of course not in any way that will interfer with the fel champs. Let's get 105er scrolls there, and a rare 110, and all scrolls by killing the boss. I don't think (in sandbox-terms), this is necessary (a cold-hearted uo veteran I am :)), but it can really be a nice incentive for ppl who absolutely can't deal with Fel. I agree to that.

Regards, Fizzle
 

A Cat

Visitor
The game isn't dying imminently, but it is on a slow and steady decline. Anecdotally: I return for a couple of months every year and each time it becomes slightly easier to place a slightly bigger house in a slightly better location. I don't think anyone can really dispute this, the game certainly isn't increasing in subscriber numbers.

I think there's a belief that this is because of the age of the game, but I don't think that's the issue here. Look at Runescape: it's nearly as old as UO and it's had a massive resurgence and is doing better than ever now. The indie and old school is really popular at the moment, there is fertile ground for a UO revival if it was ever going to happen.

The core problem is that the new and returning player experience is extremely poor so nobody stays for very long. The confounding factor is that the things that need to be done in order to fix the game will probably upset some of the long-term players who seem happier to watch the game slowly fade than indulge some changes to try and revitalise it.
I think your last paragraph is the exact issue this game faces. The development teams, over the years, have been too afraid to do the things that need to be done because they don't want to upset the longtime players. Kingdom reborn is the greatest example.

They need to revamp the game engine, the graphics, the clients (ditch the classic - note, this one also has all the exploits!), and change many of the game's systems (PvP mostly). If they did this, they could delete all current accounts/players and regain a measly 5-10k accounts without issue. We aren't talking about removing the soul of the game, just streamlining the game to better reach new players. Improving the existing systems. They could even stop development on the current classic game, leave the servers running, and launch new servers for an enhanced gaming experience. Then just shut down the old servers as people migrate (and they would).

Runescape did this successfully. Runescape is killing this game in terms of active player base too. They are racking in more money with a smaller development team. Go figure. Runescape has 1,000,000 subscribers as of Jan 5th, 2019. 1 Million.

Keep in mind Broadsword does not have the expertise to do this. So, it would take an EA exec to make a decision to move to a new developer.

Edit: (Jagex Celebrates 18 Years of RuneScape with Over 1 Million Subscribers)
  • Cumulative lifetime revenue for the RuneScape franchise passed $1billion
UO isn't even close. 1 Billion dollars. Come on Broadsword. Stop failing us.

Edit 2:
DarkScape
On 16 September 2015 Jagex released DarkScape, a separate version of RuneScape which featured open-world player versus player combat. DarkScape was originally released with most of RuneScape's content, but received separate content updates. DarkScape was completely free to play, with some additional benefits reserved for paying subscribers.[110] On 29 February 2016 it was announced that DarkScape would close on 28 March due to lack of interest.[111]

Note how well PvP does in games like these? We know that PvP isn't what players want in these games.
 
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Mahler

Adventurer
I was around back then too. You are completely wrong. No offense, but when this game was released, it was a marvel as online gaming had seen nothing like it (Hell, home internet was brand new to most people when this released!). No one thought it was dying until EQ came out, and they were right, other games have stolen most players away. The game's population has been in steady, year-over-year decline since the release of EQ. The game had over 200,000 active paying subscribers at one point (probably more). Right now it has between 5-10,000 paying accounts. Sure, the store provides added revenue, but by all standards the game is near end-of-life. After my short experience, I don't see the current dev team making any real headway (they don't understand how to move the game forward - they are clueless, imho).
I believe the game was said to have reached its highest subs upon the release of Age of Shadows, released in 2003 (Ultima Online - Wikipedia). EQ was released in 1999. Now how many paying subs actually exist, well, only Broadsword and EA really know. I've known people who didn't have a house and paid for years to keep their sub alive (in 2 cases, it was unknowingly).

As for the topic, I'm not sure the cost of running the UO servers and the support (devs/etc). I think if it weren't profitable in some manner, if that is in actual cash profits or breaking even and trying to build brand loyalty, I think they'd have cut it off. I do agree with others who have said housing is likely what has saved UO from cancellation. Additionally, I think the fact that there are several sites which are [supposedly] not affiliated with Broadsword that sell items supports the idea that there must be enough demand out there for this game that people are spending enough to keep it afloat.

For the OP, I think deleting your characters is more of an act of cutting off your nose to spite your face; you're not hurting Broadsword, UO, or EA by doing so, you're just trying to ensure that you have a reason not to come back if you find yourself interested in the future. I've quit (or, rather, taken long breaks considering I've come back) UO at least 5 times for various reasons; deployments, boredom, getting scammed when I was a kid, etc were reasons. When I was a young kid, sharing an account with my 2 brothers, we were scammed out of what was a lot of gold at the time when homes were deeds. We quit, and my brother deleted the characters to a move to ensure we wouldn't want to rejoin in the future -- we all did, from scratch.
 

A Cat

Visitor
I believe the game was said to have reached its highest subs upon the release of Age of Shadows, released in 2003 (Ultima Online - Wikipedia). EQ was released in 1999. Now how many paying subs actually exist, well, only Broadsword and EA really know. I've known people who didn't have a house and paid for years to keep their sub alive (in 2 cases, it was unknowingly).

As for the topic, I'm not sure the cost of running the UO servers and the support (devs/etc). I think if it weren't profitable in some manner, if that is in actual cash profits or breaking even and trying to build brand loyalty, I think they'd have cut it off. I do agree with others who have said housing is likely what has saved UO from cancellation. Additionally, I think the fact that there are several sites which are [supposedly] not affiliated with Broadsword that sell items supports the idea that there must be enough demand out there for this game that people are spending enough to keep it afloat.

For the OP, I think deleting your characters is more of an act of cutting off your nose to spite your face; you're not hurting Broadsword, UO, or EA by doing so, you're just trying to ensure that you have a reason not to come back if you find yourself interested in the future. I've quit (or, rather, taken long breaks considering I've come back) UO at least 5 times for various reasons; deployments, boredom, getting scammed when I was a kid, etc were reasons. When I was a young kid, sharing an account with my 2 brothers, we were scammed out of what was a lot of gold at the time when homes were deeds. We quit, and my brother deleted the characters to a move to ensure we wouldn't want to rejoin in the future -- we all did, from scratch.
I rebuild characters on every return. I enjoy that. This time I was stopped from building my Tamer. So I quit and deleted. I'd come back if they offered a better game. As it stands there's just better games out there. I really like the concept of UO, but PvP needs to end. It's that simple. Or create 1 PvP shard and make the rest trammel. What you'd find is no one would play the PvP shard because they wouldnt have non-PvP players to grief and kill and steal from. The game is in dire straits right now. It's gonna end soon. That's a fact. It may go a few more years, but eventually they will pull the plug.

The game needs an entire revamp that entirely changes the PvP aspect.
 

A Cat

Visitor
nevermind. I deleted it all, life is good, etc etc
So Ad Hominem attacks are ok? Come on. I deleted because I'm not interested in playing again soon. I've started Black Desert. Still, I've invested years into this game. I'm sharing my experience and problems. And I've struck a chord. People want to have this debate. It's legitimate. EJ was released to increase the player base and, guess what, it's not working. The game is close to the end.

An EA exec could pull the plug tomorrow. That's where the game is at.
 

petemage

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
EJ was released to increase the player base and, guess what, it's not working.
Only people that sub through EJ are the people that would have subbed in the first place anyway if there was no EJ. Real F2P people will have a laugh and go on cause it's so gimped beyond fun.

Broadsword never wanted to make it work since F2P earnings would go to Origin/EA anyway. Nothing but some busy work.
 
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Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I was around back then too. You are completely wrong. No offense,
*sighs* no i'm not. it was on the usenet if you remember what that was. about a month after launch. the fact that the skara ferry didn't work was taken 2b a sign of a lack of care that meant this game was not long for this world. here we are. sure it may die someday. many businesses die sooner or later. also, coincidences happen all the time. if this game does die you'll jump up & down & say 'told you so.' so, i suppose, somewhere, will that skara ferry dude from the usenet. but it's just coincidence.

basically the rest of your post is saying that anyone who disagrees with you is a "die hard" and anyone who agrees with you sees "the writing on the wall." two bankrupt expressions with no real meaning. & utterances which can be made only by ignoring the evidence you've been presented with.

*shrugs*
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
nevermind. I deleted it all, life is good, etc etc
i have 2 give him credit in that he's 1 of the few who predicts this game death because of too much pvp. funny, though. i hate pvp more than he does but i still don't see how the lack of power scrolls without pvp causes people 2 leave or not 2 play at all.

don't get me wrong it'd be a better game with no fel but i've seen no evidence, at all, that that's a major issue with the game.

i think any newer players we got would look at fel as like wow's battlegrounds or something & mostly avoid it and just find ways 2 buy stuff that comes from there.

that's how i've been approaching things for years. i've only ever seen one person pop on here and say that's what's going to kill us and that's this guy.
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
Governor
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
i have 2 give him credit in that he's 1 of the few who predicts this game death because of too much pvp. funny, though. i hate pvp more than he does but i still don't see how the lack of power scrolls without pvp causes people 2 leave or not 2 play at all.

don't get me wrong it'd be a better game with no fel but i've seen no evidence, at all, that that's a major issue with the game.

i think any newer players we got would look at fel as like wow's battlegrounds or something & mostly avoid it and just find ways 2 buy stuff that comes from there.

that's how i've been approaching things for years. i've only ever seen one person pop on here and say that's what's going to kill us and that's this guy.
I'll say I was pretty wild about the new taming revamp and for a while it kept my interest and I was playing more than I had in YEARS.... but once my stash of scrolls "ran dry"... and I had to try to get more....... at either super overinflated prices... trading expensive items for the stuff I needed.... or trying to grind them out in fel and either getting crap scrolls (I recall "pre" pet revamp 120 Wrestling dropped left and right and was the #1 scroll you'd get while grinding if you got a 120)... but it would seem the well for Wrestling 120's is dry and now you get mostly 120 Macing scrolls left and right.... think that's a coincidence? Guess again..... I think it's the DEVs... At any rate since then the # of PKs roaming Fel on my shard have quadrupled... and they are like packs of hungry vultures... you can bet one will be about every 10 min or so... not near enough time to finish a spawn... and since that no hope in hades of getting scrolls on my own on my own shard... sure I could go to a "dead" shard but they hover there too... and I don't want to be on a dead shard I want to be on my shard...

I'm not about to pay insane prices for a scroll that once was 500k at MAX pre-publish. It's disgusting. But sure I could use 115's or 110s but do you go out with 1/2 a suit??? with 1/2 a weapon? I think not... So being PK'd when all one wants to do is grind the grind to get the scrolls to grind the grind of leveling up new pets and testing them out... well, it took the "fun" out of it.... and I'm back to playing maybe 1 or 2 times a week for an hour or 2... and I keep asking myself why am I paying for this game again????

I'm mostly playing Black Desert where yes it's a grind... and yes I can occasionally get PKd... but I don't lose all the work I just did when I do get PKd there... They can't take anything from me... So I don't care. If they become annoying I can just go to another server and forget them...

Can't really do that in UO... Moving as many accounts as I have to another server would be a VERY expensive and time-consuming endeavor... and you know what???? I don't want to... GLs is my "home"... I have no desire to play anywhere else. I know pretty much everyone on the shard... I know where the best shops are..... and I know who NOT to trust... but yes... there isn't much "fun" in UO anymore.

And I know I'm not alone... but then I also know some who pay ridiculous amounts of $ both in RL and in game for things... I quit spending much more than my accounts long ago and I refuse to overspend on things... I had about 6 or 8 1/2 trained pets waiting at 4 to 5 for scrolls... but it isn't any fun anymore. It's kinda like building a suit for a DEXER and then not being able to build the weapon so you just leave them... fully trained... suit without a weapon... of little use, just takes up slots.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
sure I could go to a "dead" shard but they hover there too... and I don't want to be on a dead shard I want to be on my shard...
Actually that is why the 2 PvP guilds that were playing on LS went to GL. Because they considered it more dead than LS. But thanks for letting them play there with no interruption. You can keep them.
 

celticus

Babbling Loonie
Actually that is why the 2 PvP guilds that were playing on LS went to GL. Because they considered it more dead than LS. But thanks for letting them play there with no interruption. You can keep them.
NIce! LoL. As long as they just do PvP, no problems. Welcome to GL. Unless they also do PKilling. There is a difference. Send them back to LS! LOL..Lets all make PVP characters and push them out.:hahaha:
 
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