UO Crafting - One of the best!

[Coldren]

Great article over on MMORPG.com by Scott Jennings about crafting in MMO's. Ultima Online, of course, is cited as being one of the best, second to SWG. (I don't count Second Life.. Never have, never will.)

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/4130/Crafting-Gameplay.html

It has some excellent insights about the benefits and problems with other crafting systems, specifically what play styles they cater to, and the downfalls of other implementations. (AH's a bad thing? Now that I think about it..)

So what do you guys think of crafting in MMO's, UO in particular? What would you do to improve it, if you would at all?

 

[Evlar]

Having only ever played UO as far as MMO's go, I've no yard stick to compare with.

Crafting in UO is generally superb, lot's of trades, lot's of options. The only problem I have with crafting now, is because of the more item orientated gameplay, plus imbuing, I feel like certain skills have been pushed into the background.

Imbuing is superb for the item based game, but it feels more like a numbers game, with item stats a little overbearing for my own tastes. I preferred crafting pre-AOS. Personal preference, nothing more nothing less. I enjoyed the simplicity. A blacksmith and tailor took a while to reach GM, I felt proud when I got there. The fact I could then make a GM plate or GM studded suit was a thing of pride. Now, I can still make the same things, but they're simply not viewed as worth anything, unless they're "enhanced" in some way with runics or via imbuing.

So although I cannot directly compare to other games, my own preference would be the simplified "power" of a simple blacksmith or tailor, over what we have now.

 

[Fresley]

SWG used to be the best pre-NGE. Random quality materials spawning on different worlds and then never spawning again. Finding that perfect mat to peak out your item was awesome. Making a prototype, factories, harvesters, etc. SWG isn't worth playing after its attempt to transmogrify into a 3rd person shooter with set classes. Bleh....

I'm actually enjoying crafting a ton more in UO since imbuing. Items that wear out and more maker input into the finished article. Its more like SWG was than SWG is now.

 

[Guido_LS]

It's a fair, but somewhat biased, and somewhat outdated, article - by outdated, I mean in terms of accuracy.

Up until the last 2 expansions, for example, in EQ, the best armor available was crafted - a situation that got the full time high end raiders so upset that a great many threatened to quit. To this day, it's still far and away better than any non-raider/casual player will ever earn through hunting/questing.

And yes, there were several high end quests that got linked to crafting - but the deities forbid that a rogue, who is the master of poisons, wouldn't know how to craft/use them at the top end of their game, or that a shaman wouldn't know how to make the best potions in game, etc.

Of course, he completely failed to mention that the top of the line crafting quests were for, zomg, crafters - allowing them to obtain +skill modifiers... oh the humanity...

So yes, while there was the pigeon holing of classes in EQ, vs the sandbox of UO, his comments are, at the very least, in error, and patently false at the extreme.

----

SWG... the only thing that DID work in SWG was crafting... too bad the rest of the game sucked so bad that the chrome on bumpers got frightened...

----

Noticeably absent from his opinion piece were Vanguard, which by and large has THE most extensive (and annoying...) crafting system in an MMO, and Horizons/Istaria, which is in the top 3. Even EVE has a superior system to WoW, and that just got a passing mention.

While I don't debate that UO has a great crafting system (I am, after all, a crafting junkie), I think this op piece is very incomplete, and doing the readers a disservice just via omission.

I was a fan of Lum the Mad back in the day, but Jennings' bias shows through here, and badly.

 

[Llewen]

I agree, I think UO's crafting system rocks. The only game I've played that comes close is Darkfall Online (this isn't meant to be a plug, I'm just saying I like it's crafting system). Unfortunately I didn't play old school SWG long enough to get into the crafting system.

 

[Tukaram]

I've tried quite few online games and I have seen nothing that compares to UO crafting! Unfortunately a bunch of the new loot seems better than crafted but the imbuing helps make up the difference (shouldn't imbue be a 'crafter' skill?)

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Ah... good old Lum... I remember those days.

Anyway... topic at hand...

Yeah, from my (limited) MMOG experience, UO definitely has the better crafting system (leveling in combat in order to gain the access to materials used for crafting always seemed wrong to me) overall, but by the same token, I actually LIKED the centralized system of trade WoW uses (auction house). I liked being able to easily figure out a price for what I was selling, or if I was feeling mischevious, the ability to "play the floor" and buy up everything I thought was undervalued and set the floor price on the given item (or commodity as the case may be as I usually did this with herbs and ingots). It also made sure that the item had a decent chance of selling. It was always fun coming home from work, logging in and seeing what sold in the mailbox.

How does that tie to UO?

Well, Pre-Luna, it was fairly easy to be a store-front merchant in UO... there were several decent areas that were well traveled, and even a little out of the way had a good chance of selling good stuff.

Now? Nope... most people have reached the point of "If it's not in Luna, I'm not spending HOURS looking for it". Also, I've always been fairly anti-spam/littering, and hate the concept of dropping runes all over the place hoping to get a "bite". Of course since I've had my cabin in the same location since medium sized housing opened in Trammel, the movement has gone steadily away (in fact I think mine is one of the few left standing in its location on LS at all). So a little out of the way (although good for miners that frequented the area) has turned into "the sticks".

The crafting in UO is great as is resource gathering (which exists in both combat and non-combat forms), but currently, if you're not set up in Luna, the sales part of that equation is broken IMO.

So what's a possible fix?

Bulletin boards.

Create centralized bulletin boards in towns that work like the auction house does in WoW. But instead of allowing direct buying from them, simply have it as a searchable database of items, price, and location.

Then Bulletin Boards in players' houses would then be needed to "attach" to the system. At that point, the player could then set up a vendor, desginate as "attached", and everything put up on that vendor would then be added to the shard-wide database.

Result: Item searching becomes internal to the game and centralized, however, it would still be up to the player to locate said item and buy it from the store front held by the player.

It may be a little complicated, but I think it would address the change in mindset that has occurred over the years due to the introduction of Luna.

 

[Jhym]

But he doesn't get into one of the major problems with gaming crafting.

The crafting itself is never skill/thought oriented. You gather materials, put them in a spot, get the right skill or other item, click a button, and have a chance at getting what you want.

There are no interfaces that let you the player do anything to adjust your items through your own hands, or add to the appearance, or add special, player distinct attributes.

What if you had effectively the option to do the "click and wait", OR you could enter a puzzle or fps type subgame that would let your own actions change what was happening? Like in smithing, you could add a 'banging' subgame, where you have to bang the metals in the right sequence to get certain attributes; quenching, picking the right time to do so; attachment of various parts to add to your item, etc.

Similar to how the plague beast lords and the controller towers work, where you have to finish a puzzle, but make it more tailored to each skill.

Of course, they won't add such things because they don't open up the playstyle to a large enough following. However, true crafters would feel a lot more excited to build an item if they had real work and sweat involved.

ah well.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

While that's good in theory Jhym, one of the things that makes UO's crafting work so well is that it's always been simple. Yeah, it's not realistic to be able to bang out a sword or a suit of armor in half a second, but imagine trying to simply grind the skill level and having to play minigames for each .1.

By the same token, making it TOO ingredient intesive also tends to detract away.

UO has a good balance of generalist crafting (i.e. standard crafting, take ingredient(s), use tool, get widget) and specialist crafting (Enhancing and Imbueing). I think if you try and take it beyond that point, it's going to just bog down the system.

Also if you're trying to make something for a friend or customer, I doubt they want to sit around and do nothing while you "play Pipe Dream" in order to get the mod they're looking for.

Just my thoughts on that point, take them for what they are.

 

[bjornef]

in my eyes uo got the best

pvp
crafting
fishing tresure hunting
rouges
thifes
murderers
and lots more even some pritty ladys
and some gay guys
and a ton of straight guys and ladys
not many other games can say the same but uo got it all
and is going to stay along time unless to many play with that godforsaken blackrock

 

[Pfloyd]

SWG used to be the best pre-NGE. Random quality materials spawning on different worlds and then never spawning again. Finding that perfect mat to peak out your item was awesome. Making a prototype, factories, harvesters, etc. SWG isn't worth playing after its attempt to transmogrify into a 3rd person shooter with set classes. Bleh....

I'm actually enjoying crafting a ton more in UO since imbuing. Items that wear out and more maker input into the finished article. Its more like SWG was than SWG is now.

I agree except for the harvester rental from people who didnt normally play on the server...if people had to pick up harvesters and move them regularly it would have made it better.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I am very happy with crafting in UO, especially since Imbuing was invented. Contrary to the first years of UO, today you can craft almost anything, and I love that! However, even in a good system there are many things that could be improved:

• It is a pity that the diversity of armor material has become meaningless. Nobody wears plate or dragon scale armor. It would be great if each material had its advantages and downsides, so you could pick different suits for different purpose.
  
• I think ressources should come more random. I'd like the idea that mining in a dungeon, especially in dangerous areas, would increase the chance to yield special quality ressources. It would also be great if you could find a very rare unique ressource to make your armor more individual (like give it a special name).
  
• I still dislike the BOD system, as it is very boring and repetitive. I'd prefer a more quest-like system.

 

[bjornef]

i used to trade bods started with nothing and got up to a point were i sold all i had for like 200mil or some was allot of money back then
the way i did it was i always traded any of my bod for one better bod they needed seamed fear to me since i did get any thing and they did get bod they wanted

well allot did not like my system but plenty used it and was allot more fun then trading in bods

and since all bods are free i cant realy say i did do any thing rong

 

[Coldren]

I am very happy with crafting in UO, especially since Imbuing was invented. Contrary to the first years of UO, today you can craft almost anything, and I love that! However, even in a good system there are many things that could be improved:

• It is a pity that the diversity of armor material has become meaningless. Nobody wears plate or dragon scale armor. It would be great if each material had its advantages and downsides, so you could pick different suits for different purpose.
  
• I think ressources should come more random. I'd like the idea that mining in a dungeon, especially in dangerous areas, would increase the chance to yield special quality ressources. It would also be great if you could find a very rare unique ressource to make your armor more individual (like give it a special name).
  
• I still dislike the BOD system, as it is very boring and repetitive. I'd prefer a more quest-like system.

Well put - I completely agree.

Especially on BoD's.... I really, really don't like them.

 

[Fresley]

But he doesn't get into one of the major problems with gaming crafting.

The crafting itself is never skill/thought oriented. You gather materials, put them in a spot, get the right skill or other item, click a button, and have a chance at getting what you want.

There are no interfaces that let you the player do anything to adjust your items through your own hands, or add to the appearance, or add special, player distinct attributes.

What if you had effectively the option to do the "click and wait", OR you could enter a puzzle or fps type subgame that would let your own actions change what was happening? Like in smithing, you could add a 'banging' subgame, where you have to bang the metals in the right sequence to get certain attributes; quenching, picking the right time to do so; attachment of various parts to add to your item, etc.

Similar to how the plague beast lords and the controller towers work, where you have to finish a puzzle, but make it more tailored to each skill.

Of course, they won't add such things because they don't open up the playstyle to a large enough following. However, true crafters would feel a lot more excited to build an item if they had real work and sweat involved.

ah well.

EQ2 has mini game crafting similar to this. Unfortunately, its harvesting system sucks as does housing and most of the rest of it.

 

[Gheed]

I am very happy with crafting in UO, especially since Imbuing was invented. Contrary to the first years of UO, today you can craft almost anything, and I love that! However, even in a good system there are many things that could be improved:

• It is a pity that the diversity of armor material has become meaningless. Nobody wears plate or dragon scale armor. It would be great if each material had its advantages and downsides, so you could pick different suits for different purpose.
  
• I think resources should come more random. I'd like the idea that mining in a dungeon, especially in dangerous areas, would increase the chance to yield special quality resources. It would also be great if you could find a very rare unique resource to make your armor more individual (like give it a special name).
  
• I still dislike the BOD system, as it is very boring and repetitive. I'd prefer a more quest-like system.

I agree with the metal armor/dragon scale issue. I was actually kind of shocked that metal armor didn't get a higher cap... or leather a lower cap.... for imbuing. Basically keeping leather on top for the free mage armor property.

I had an idea the other day. I know hundreds of suggestions have been thrown out there (several by me). But I was thinking it would be a fair trade to allow for metal armor to increase your physical and poison resist cap by 1% per piece (max 5). Bone would increase physical and fire, studded and chain physical. If the mage armor property was added then the bonus to the cap would be lost.

I disagree with resource gathering becoming more random. I don't think mining should involve PvM of any sort to get all resources. There are plenty of systems that rely on that as it is. Although I do think quantity could be affected by battling it out... ore elementals for example are a cool idea for PvM choice. If special creatures such as ore elementals occasionally spawned around rare veins that would allow you to figure out something good was close by... They were invulnerable/non-aggressive until you found their ore vein... then attacked you.... that would be kind of cool.

I disagree with the rng system we have now and how rng mining has made it incredibly easy to script millions without getting caught.

Resources should not be used for things like turn ins. They should be used for things like imbuing where quantity does not matter so much.

I actually kind of like the BOD system they way it is

 

[Gheed]

I switch between FFXI and UO. Both have excellent crafting systems. FFXI has 8 crafts based on the 8 elements of the game. The FFXI week has 8 days lasting one hour each. Each day is strong to a certain element and weak to another. The elements scale from light to dark based. There are also different moon phases that effect crafting. Each element also has a corresponding star in the sky.

It reads like a UO myth nightmare. But the element (crystal) you are crafting with, the direction you face, the day you craft on and the time of the month you craft all sway your results. Getting to max skill is only allowed in one craft.

All that said I still like UO's crafting system better. In FFXI, maxing out skill takes alot more planning and is (to me) more rewarding than maxing out skill in UO. But once you are done leveling skill, UO has more nice items to make. UO crafts are much more diverse.

 

[Lorax_Pacific]

I agree with the metal armor/dragon scale issue. I was actually kind of shocked that metal armor didn't get a higher cap... or leather a lower cap.... for imbuing. Basically keeping leather on top for the free mage armor property.

I had an idea the other day. I know hundreds of suggestions have been thrown out there (several by me). But I was thinking it would be a fair trade to allow for metal armor to increase your physical and poison resist cap by 1% per piece (max 5). Bone would increase physical and fire, studded and chain physical. If the mage armor property was added then the bonus to the cap would be lost.

<snip>

Different materials and armor types already do this. Look at the max cap on bascinets (20 phys) compared to a leather cap (17 phys) when you try to imbue them. The same is true for dragon scale and cloth hats. I made a quildmate a shadow plate suit except for a few arty pieces for his archer. Saved a ton not having to POF the pieces.

Or, did you mean actually increase above 70 phys resist so you could go to say 75 max phys resist?

-Lorax

 

[Llewen]

Different materials and armor types already do this. Look at the max cap on bascinets (20 phys) compared to a leather cap (17 phys) when you try to imbue them. The same is true for dragon scale and cloth hats. I made a quildmate a shadow plate suit except for a few arty pieces for his archer. Saved a ton not having to POF the pieces.

Or, did you mean actually increase above 70 phys resist so you could go to say 75 max phys resist?

-Lorax

Myself I think that the difference should be even greater than it is, so that there is a real measurable advantage to plate over leather. And I think as well the caps for lighter armour should be lowered, so if you for example wear all cloth, your resist cap is 40, leather 50, studded 55, ring 60, chain 65, and plate 70 and you can raise your cap to the next level by wearing two pieces of a higher cap armour (so your base cap is the lowest rated armour piece you are wearing, and you can raise to the next cap level by wearing two pieces of higher cap armour).

...or something to that effect...

 

[Gheed]

I agree with the metal armor/dragon scale issue. I was actually kind of shocked that metal armor didn't get a higher cap... or leather a lower cap.... for imbuing. Basically keeping leather on top for the free mage armor property.

I had an idea the other day. I know hundreds of suggestions have been thrown out there (several by me). But I was thinking it would be a fair trade to allow for metal armor to increase your physical and poison resist cap by 1% per piece (max 5). Bone would increase physical and fire, studded and chain physical. If the mage armor property was added then the bonus to the cap would be lost.

<snip>

Different materials and armor types already do this. Look at the max cap on bascinets (20 phys) compared to a leather cap (17 phys) when you try to imbue them. The same is true for dragon scale and cloth hats. I made a quildmate a shadow plate suit except for a few arty pieces for his archer. Saved a ton not having to POF the pieces.

Or, did you mean actually increase above 70 phys resist so you could go to say 75 max phys resist?

-Lorax

Meant this:
Or, did you mean actually increase above 70 phys resist so you could go to say 75 max phys resist?