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Think About It

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Pacem

Guest
Hmmm, good attempt at trying to negate literally everything there... but you fall WOEFULLY short.
Please give me details ^^b I can't defend the statements you disagree with if you refuse to debate them and I think every one of my points are valid.
Firstly, my appologies for my wording of this first bit, that was unexcusable.
I explain in my next post.

My friend, not only do people go out of control without God, but, since there are NO consequences for actions outside of this life in this view, there is no punishment either.
You allude to punishment being physicle, I direct you to fallouts posts.
There is a very real danger to Fallout's view. If all punishment were abolished, that would also mean that ALL of the people that are now in prison would be set free. Even with the rehabilitive therapy that Fallout describes, many will only go back to doing whatever they did to land them in prison to begin with, be it ****, murder, child molestation or what not. It is also proven that in many families where the parents do not punish their children on any level, that the children go out of control and do dangerous things.

Now, in respect, if Fallout wishes me to back up such a claim, I will in turn ask him to back up his info. That is only fair, right? :) But for me to back up my info, he must first back his up. Then I will gladly do what I can to back up mine.

Plus, you obviously think that insulting people and deriding them is OK. You validate me with your harsh words.
It's called debate darling, sometimes it comes across as being harsh btu if you want to get into that kind o fmindset it was you that started this thread and it was you that slung the first dung heap at me in "the post".
True that, true that. But again, my appologies for sounding offensive when that was not my intetion.

Even with the Christian church, people can be sincerely wrong. I won't deny that either. But now, you are also sincerely wrong.
Please explain?
This will also be explained in my next post.

But it should be pointed out, that just like the church supporting Hitler in the beginning, and the Crusades, and the Inquisition etc... in each of these cases, they were definately NOT following the true teachings of Jesus.
Certainly correct ^^
No argument here. :)

Christianity should not be judged by a few misguided followers, but in what Jesus truely taught, and yes, "meant". And one thing Jesus taught is how to treat others.

I totaly agree but it wasn't just the church was it now. To be silent is to consent.
That is correct. Take for example the Muslim faith. Muslims are for the most part a very kind and generous people that readily welcome you. It is only because of the fanatic terrorist groups that Muslims as a whole are given a bad name. They are basically going through now what the Christian church went through all those years ago with the Crusades and such. The people that carried out the Crusades were by definition "terrorists".
 
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Pacem

Guest
Atheistic, evolutionistic and secular belief systems are responsible for more evil and death than all the religious battles of the 20th century combined.
How so? please prove this.
This is explained in the list of dictators I provided in the origional post.
Hitler killed 6 million Jews
lol not really I think he hardly killed any himself actualy though he did inspire others to kill relentlessly for him.
That may be so, but he was responsible for the ordering of millions of deaths, and the ordering of the facilities that carried out many of those deaths, including human incinerator chambers and gas chambers.
He was also responsible for the ordering and overseeing of concentration camps where people were starved and worked to death.

Hitler did not kill anyone (that I know of) directly, like pointing a gun to a person's head and pulling the trigger, but he was definately responsible indirectly, and by the direct ordering of deaths.

Hitler was a staunch evolutionist that believed in survival of the fittest.

Nope nope nope. He believed in preserving the purity of the gene pool to which he faulted for killing jews since in his veiw they are actualy quite clean compared to other ethnic groups.
Wait. You say here that Hitler killed Jews, while just above you say he didn't. Which is it?
Plus, it is actual fact that Hitler considered Jews as sub human. Even if he never thought the words "sub human", his beliefs indicated such because of the purity of the gene pool, as you mentioned.

The Jews along with other peoples were viewed by both him and those following him to be a species of sub-human
That includes your church then lol I've found no matter how nice the christian when it comes down to Jews they can't stand them as a people.
Can you explain this a little bit for me? Do not forget that Jesus himself was a Jew, born a Nazareen, and followed Jewish laws and customs.
Also, it wasn't only the Jews that wanted to kill Jesus, but it was also the Romans that carried it out. Yet you do not hear of Christians hating Romans. So if we do not hate Romans for the same reason, why would we hate the Jews? There are in fact Messianic Jews that are still Jews, but believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Why would we hate them?

Hitler, to all Christians, was a horrible monster that did and ordered unspeakable things to be done to millions of innocent people. For someone to think that Hitler was doing right, or think he wasn't a madman is to be considered insane.
Hehe, now would be a good time to put forth the speculation that the church sanctified his actions before everything kicked off. Old habits die hard for your church eh?
Even with people within the Christian faith, you can be sincere and be sincerely wrong. The Crusades were wrong, the Inquisition was wrong. Anyone can do something in the name of God, but that doesn't mean it's God's will that you do it. You have to follow what Jesus taught, and what God teaches in the Ten Commandments and elsewhere.

Yet if no God truely exists nor ever did exist, they were neither innocent nor guilty. Hitler simply did what is recorded in our DNA through evolution to do what needed to be done, and did nothing wrong whatsoever.
There is nothing in my DNA that says I have to kill to survive. If simple minded animals can go about their lives and not kill each other then I'm sure we can so your argument is moot. True there is potential but that;s the same in all of us wheather we have a god or not.
Two things here. Simple-minded animals do indeed kill each other, with no knowledge of God. So the very reason you gave for my argument here becoming moot is removed, thereby strengthening it once again.
The same whether we have a god or not? Have you looked at the YMCA, the Salvation Army and the American Red Cross? These three organizations alone have helped literally millions of people in all walks of life around the world, in disaster relief, shelter, soup kitchens and a vast array of other things.
These three organizations all have Christian roots, and were all founded by people that had given their hearts and lives to the Creator God.
Without them, these organizations would not exist, and we may very well be worse off today if not for them.

In fact, without God, or the belief in ANY god, right and wrong are nothing but the fantacies of every individual person. Sure, each of us has a concept of what is right, but it is only personal opinion.
Your bible is just personal opinion lol Everything that is written in thoughs pages are how people interpreted Jesus' actions.
That would be true what you say, if it could not be verifyable. Once something that is stated is verified in the physical world, it becomes fact. This is so for the Bible.
Setting aside the story of Creation and God's acts on mankind over the ages (which can be verified indirectly), we still have to consider the issues of prophecy in the Bible being correct, and archaeology constantly only verifying people, places and events.
And not everything written in the Bible is about Jesus' actions. Take the entire Old Testament for example. Yes it tells of the Messiah's coming, but doesn't tell about the actions of Jesus until the New Testament.
And many of the things Jesus says is point blank, leaving no room for interpretation whatsoever.

****, murder, abortion, taking advantage of another for your own gain... it is all there in our DNA, according to this view. It is a very bleak scenario. **** is required to purpetuate the species and help it to survive.
Do you read what you type? There is something seriously wrong with you if you really believe that. You make me laugh.
Ok, I will give you credit on this one. It may not be in our DNA, but survival of the fittest IS (according to, if not naturalistic view, evolutionist view).
We see it in nature all the time.
where? Please tell me where is it in nature that it's common place to ****? Different mating practises doesn't make it ****. You're putting Human morals on animals. You cannot do that lol
Perhaps not the same morals, but the same physical definitions. What is **** but mating, the result giving birth?
You wanted an example, so here is one. Many times in nature, if you ever watch nature shows and the like, you will see a group of males surrounding one female. One male does the dirty deed, then another steps up, then another. What is this?
Murder is another story. Just as we kill others out of anger, so do animals if one male gets pissed off at another for whatever reason and it winds up in a battle to the death.
Abortion may not be found in the animal kingdom (because of the technology involved), but killing newborns IS found in nature, and is very common in some areas.
Now, without God and relying only on evolution, are we not animals ourselves? If not, how did we transcend?

What I have just described is very disturbing. Yet to hold to the totally naturalistic view, it is absolutely required that one also believes in the affore-mentioned scenario as well, or the view has no validity.
Just because I don't follow your crazy view of what a "naturalistic view" of humans are doesn't discredit anything I say. You did this the last time i posted. You tried to make out I was a hypocritcle nazi and anything I my put forth to the debate is worthless because of that fact. I just thought I'd make sure everyone understood what that post was about incase they missed it. I think many would agree your just trolling your BS now.
I do not do that on purpose. I merely present details and I leave it to the reader to decide.
As long as we can carry on a logical debate and avoid exasperation, this can actually be quite constructive. But as soon as people resort to hurling insults at each other the topic breaks down and we get nowhere fast.

I implore you, think carefully before making such a decision as this, research and study for yourself what I have related to you previously, and the concequences of the stand you now have. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide where you stand.
That's the thing. I have. I've chosen to for my own opinions with the information I gathered. It's you that is spewing forth only what otehrs have written before you. What the churchs has taught you to say and think.
You certainly have a right to your own opinions and I will respect that. Everyone has the right to choose for themselves what to think and believe.
Now, if in the cases I am "spewing forth," as you so colorfully put it, information that others have written before me, is because I believe them to be verifyable fact.
And in actuality, this is necessary for most conversations. Are you not "spewing forth" information based partly on what others have written and said before you? Are you not saying things now based on what others have helped to teach you to think about things? Even evolutionists, while learning in public schools, learn from what others have written before them, and repeat what they have learned to others. Without doing that, there would be no evolutionists and no christians today, or at the most very few.
If it were not for what others have written before us, we would not know very much about our past at all. I am not an archaeologist. You are not a biochemist or paleoentologist (forgive spelling). So we both rely on such data, since we cannot explore these things on our own outside of pre-written texts.

Now, not meaning to insult you based on your sexual orientation, but at the same time following the "logic" of a totally naturalistic view, consider the following:

If you truely hold to a naturalistic view, homosexuality is absolutely detrimental to the natural order of things in the way that it does absolutely nothing to assist in the propogation of the species.

Actualy, I asked if you though science was of the linieage a naturalistic view? Because my dear if you bothered to read any kind of sociology/psychology books you would find that in the "normal" family that you christians try and foster. Boy, girl, mam and dad, if they are brought up with loveing parents they will both turn out to be bi-sexual. Sciences teachs thoughs that read it's papers that the only norm in actuality is bi-sexuality and anything else is abnormal. Sexuality in the end Is a choice there is no doubt but you need to change how you view sexuality before you can understand what I'm saying. Imagine a bar and each end is gay----straight and in the middle is bi-sexuality. All of us swing on this bar, even if just alittle every day of our lives. Our nature is to seek what pleases us. Sex is just apart of that. It's your morals and judgements that have caused so much suffering. My sexuality is a very small part of what I am.
This in no way negates the fact that homosexuality does nothing for ANY species, not just human.
There is pleasure yes, but that is all and nothing more that benifits any species. Only in the human race do you see two members of the same gender pairing together, and nowhere in nature.

A note: None of my posts are purposely intent on being insulting or accusing in ANY way. If I have insulted you in any area, I truely do appologize. My only intent here is for logical discussion of issues and information. I do not want this to degrade to the point where we only hurl insults at each other. None of my posts here are meant as personal attacks, though others here may and will do just that. I expect it. But I will to the best of my ability avoid doing that, for that only pushes people away. So for the record, I am sorry. I hope you are like-minded in this.

I look forward to future discussion. :)
 

Mishkam

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'm sorry... I am still looking and I need to leave for a bit.
But, I DID find a couple of interesting articles that you may be interested in.
One is a plain text document that seems to be pretty unbiased that looks at both sides of the issue of dating, giving other examples besides Carbon 14 dating.
http://www.grahamkendall.net/Unsorted_files-1/A229-Creationism.txt

The next article deals specifically with the dating of diamonds.
http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/life/A_Diamond_Date/27996/p1/

I already know you'll say both of these are totally wrong on a grand scale. I expect that of you now. :) But carefully read through them. They are quite interesting reguardless of where you stand.

not going to say they're wrong. Didn't even read them.

I did some research on the sites themselves.. one is a christian group, blatant bias. cross rythems? please.

the other was just some guys blog... Kendal Graham... no qualifications for him, no documentation... he could be a total nutjob.

you dont go to a christian site for scientific data anymore than you would go to a mechanic for open heart surgery.
 
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Pacem

Guest
I am getting the feeling that you will only view something as unbiased if it only advocates natural cause and the non-existence of God. :)

If that is the case, I cannot help you... you might want to read those sites anyway to see if any of the facts stated there measure up.

And what if the open heart surgeon was a mechanic in his spare time?
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
There is a very real danger to Fallout's view. If all punishment were abolished, that would also mean that ALL of the people that are now in prison would be set free.

You can't use this as a defense since they are tainted by a previous system that deviates so wildly in comparison, the only solution is to start a fresh with the young. Both of you take your stances to the extreme when though neccesary to explain your points to one another but that is it, just o explain your points. Or atleast I hope that is all.

Now, in respect, if Fallout wishes me to back up such a claim, I will in turn ask him to back up his info. That is only fair, right? :) But for me to back up my info, he must first back his up. Then I will gladly do what I can to back up mine.

His system in it's extreme doesn't exsist in isolation. since it's isolated evidence your looking for it's impossible for him to argue. But small cases with children can be found unless you think subtle psychological techniques are not valid.


That is correct. Take for example the Muslim faith. Muslims are for the most part a very kind and generous people that readily welcome you.
It is only because of the fanatic terrorist groups that Muslims as a whole are given a bad name.


Most religions are founded on the same principles and all of them will have it's bad points. They still stone women and men in the middle east and Musilms are very misogynistic.

They are basically going through now what the Christian church went through all those years ago with the Crusades and such. The people that carried out the Crusades were by definition "terrorists".

So you're trying to legitimise what they are doing? In modern eyes neither situation is acceptable. I don't understand how this effects your arguement unless your trying to change topic.
 

Mishkam

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
many scientists believe in god... they set that aside when doing scientific research.

they probably also dont bring up science in church on sundays.

Christianity, since the dawn of the age of reason, has tried to destroy science.
they have imprisoned, tortured, even murdered free thinkers for centuries.
So why would I accept anything they have to say about science?

You dont want my opinion on how liver tastes.. cause I'm only going to tell you it sucks.
 
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Pacem

Guest
No, I am not legitimizing anything they did or what the people that claimed to be Christian did, both were terrible. I was only comparing the two in that Christianity is not alone in such actions. I would never say such actions were right.
 
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Pacem

Guest
many scientists believe in god... they set that aside when doing scientific research.

they probably also dont bring up science in church on sundays.

Christianity, since the dawn of the age of reason, has tried to destroy science.
they have imprisoned, tortured, even murdered free thinkers for centuries.
So why would I accept anything they have to say about science?

You dont want my opinion on how liver tastes.. cause I'm only going to tell you it sucks.
Most of the founding fathers of science as we know it today were very much Christian, and when studying the sciences only found their faith bolstered and strangthened by what they saw.

Even in today's scientific community, while it is true that scientists need to set aside their belief in God while studying science or lose their credentials and their careers, many scientists today are experiencing the same bolstering that the founding fathers of science experienced.

And yes... liver sucks :(
 

Mishkam

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Most of the founding fathers of science as we know it today were very much Christian, and when studying the sciences only found their faith bolstered and strangthened by what they saw.
of course this was in a time that saying you didnt believe in god got you killed.

These were very smart men... dead guys cant continue research.

do the math.
 
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Pacem

Guest
of course this was in a time that saying you didnt believe in god got you killed.

These were very smart men... dead guys cant continue research.

do the math.
No, but the living can. :) Remember what I said about scientists today?
 
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Pacem

Guest
Here is an interesting site. I think this will fit even your definition of "unbiased", since the author of this article is a self-proclaimed agnostic, and this is not in even the slightest definition a religious site. This is a limited survey.
http://sciencedude.freedomblogging....edude-survey-do-oc-scientists-believe-in-god/

Here is another that is a more inclusive survey from LiveScience, a favorite site of mine. This site is also decidedly non-religious.
http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/050811_scientists_god.html

I found a site that was decidedly biased against God, claiming that with the Big Bang there was nothing for God to do. But yet they artfully dodge the issue of what banged (and you need something to bang in).
Moving on...

Now, it must be understood that these surveys come from various sources, and the results will vary widely depending on the number of people surveyed and the areas (county, state, regional, nationwide) the surveys encompased. So no doubt you will find other results but the ones stated here seem to be the most common from what I have seen thus far.

The article in this next link suggests exactly that, in that the author of this article says it may not be representative of the scientific community as a whole.
This article is from ABC News
http://static-cache.loomia.com/js/setcookie.html

One more link and I will stop for now.
http://www.american.com/archive/2008/may-05-08/putting-faith-under-the-microscope/article_print

None of the links presented here are from religious sites and give a pretty much unbiased view. I hope this suits your definition. :)
 
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Altpersona

Guest
Wait. You say here that Hitler killed Jews, while just above you say he didn't. Which is it?

Now that we understand we both like semantics ^^b

it is actual fact that Hitler considered Jews as sub human. Even if he never thought the words "sub human", his beliefs indicated such because of the purity of the gene pool, as you mentioned.

I wasn't disagreeing with you on this one. There's no point stateing the obvious. What I was saying was that he can't have been an evolutionist by the fact if it was so his logic was flawed. The jews were killed under the premis of "cleansing" not the strongest shall survive.


Yet you do not hear of Christians hating Romans. So if we do not hate Romans for the same reason, why would we hate the Jews? There are in fact Messianic Jews that are still Jews, but believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Why would we hate them?

We've already proven christians do many things they arn't meant too. I've yet to meet a christian that does like jews as a people but that is my personal experience.

Even with people within the Christian faith, you can be sincere and be sincerely wrong. The Crusades were wrong, the Inquisition was wrong. Anyone can do something in the name of God, but that doesn't mean it's God's will that you do it.

So it's ok to sin as long as you pray for forgiveness after.

Two things here. Simple-minded animals do indeed kill each other, with no knowledge of God. So the very reason you gave for my argument here becoming moot is removed, thereby strengthening it once again.

There is NOTHING that says we have to kill in our DNA. There is only potential. There is NOTHING that says I have to kill to survive.

The same whether we have a god or not? Have you looked at the YMCA, the Salvation Army and the American Red Cross?

What has this got to do with the arguement? This is not a podium for advertising.

These three organizations alone have helped literally millions of people in all walks of life around the world, in disaster relief, shelter, soup kitchens and a vast array of other things.

We would have to disect everything they do to make this arguement stand. There's a fine line between helping someone and interferring. Now I'm not saying what they do is bad but it's not wholey good either.


That would be true what you say, if it could not be verifyable. Once something that is stated is verified in the physical world, it becomes fact. This is so for the Bible. Setting aside the story of Creation and God's acts on mankind over the ages (which can be verified indirectly), we still have to consider the issues of prophecy in the Bible being correct, and archaeology constantly only verifying people, places and events.

Nothing to which Jesus supposedly said is verifiable. Nothing. It's all here say. Just becaue a few things like places and such are tagged doesn't make it real. That's like saying sci-fi novels that reference earth are wholey true lol.


And many of the things Jesus says is point blank, leaving no room for interpretation whatsoever.


I'm really not saying the bible is worthless because it's just one big novel. It has many points I'd myself agree one. I'm sure it has some beautiful peotry amoungst it's pages however, for this I'd have to remind you that Nesto covered this in his posts. Alot isn't relevant to our time.


Ok, I will give you credit on this one. It may not be in our DNA, but survival of the fittest IS (according to, if not naturalistic view, evolutionist view).


It's in neither but we'll just have to disagree.

Perhaps not the same morals, but the same physical definitions. What is **** but mating, the result giving birth?
You wanted an example, so here is one. Many times in nature, if you ever watch nature shows and the like, you will see a group of males surrounding one female. One male does the dirty deed, then another steps up, then another. What is this?


lol dirty deed huh? what is **** but mating, the same result? LMFAO You must be hilarious at parties.

I do watch them but you take what few examples you've seen and think it happens all the time. **** is sex that is forced upon a person without consent aye? I'm sure it happens but not often. I've seen male rhinos get killed for getting cocky and male hippos get savaged by packs of females for doing the same thing. In comparison what about the peguins that pair up for life? or the gorillas that hug each other and make love? and promiscuous dolphins that have sex for pleasure? You have tunnel vision.


Murder is another story. Just as we kill others out of anger, so do animals if one male gets pissed off at another for whatever reason and it winds up in a battle to the death.

But if it was humans as long as they pray for forgiveness after it's ok so why are you getting upset about it?

Now, without God and relying only on evolution, are we not animals ourselves? If not, how did we transcend?

We arn't here to teach each other spiritual evolution. Though I can direct you where to go that doesnt need a god, and I'm sure god would actualy approve if you ignored what the church says.

I do not do that on purpose. I merely present details and I leave it to the reader to decide.


I read what you alluded to and it was clear and no I don't forgive you for lowering the tone. Don't play innocent, you cant have a debate without an agenda and mine is to make sure your comments do not go unchecked and others may not see it but we both know your's not to, just, lay the facts out.

You certainly have a right to your own opinions and I will respect that. Everyone has the right to choose for themselves what to think and believe.
Now, if in the cases I am "spewing forth," as you so colorfully put it, information that others have written before me, is because I believe them to be verifyable fact.


Are you really taking it down that road? seriously?

And in actuality, this is necessary for most conversations. Are you not "spewing forth" information based partly on what others have written and said before you? Are you not saying things now based on what others have helped to teach you to think about things?

You're right ^^b

This in no way negates the fact that homosexuality does nothing for ANY species, not just human.
There is pleasure yes, but that is all and nothing more that benifits any species. Only in the human race do you see two members of the same gender pairing together, and nowhere in nature.


You need to watch more animal docus because homosexuals are everywhere. Not long ago there was bi-sexual peguins in captivity. Well one gay and one bi and the bi-sexual broke up the relationship to breed but meh, arn't all you bi-sexuals like that? :p


So for the record, I am sorry. I hope you are like-minded in this.

lol I love this I think I'll do the same.

Disclaimer:

None of my posts are purposely intent on being insulting or accusing in ANY way. If I have insulted you in any area, I truely do appologize. My only intent here is for logical discussion of issues and information. I do not want this to degrade to the point where we only hurl insults at each other. None of my posts here are meant as personal attacks, though others here may and will do just that. I expect it. But I will to the best of my ability avoid doing that, for that only pushes people away. So for the record, I am sorry.
 
T

The Fallout

Guest
It is also proven that in many families where the parents do not punish their children on any level, that the children go out of control and do dangerous things.
This is proven with parents who ignore their children's behavior and do nothing. A "no punishment" philosophy must be used with logic and reason, explaining natural consequences, how people feel about certain actions, what people will do if you do such a thing. Let them think about how they would feel if it was done to them... basically this method takes incredible amounts of time and patience and loving empathy, most parents (in America at least) are too busy dumping their kids in day care (no offense to the parents who have no choice, this is not directed at you if you need to make money for your family) or let the TV and video games babysit the kids (nothing wrong with TV and video games but if a parent over uses it as a distraction to get away from the kids this is bad)
 
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Pacem

Guest
This is proven with parents who ignore their children's behavior and do nothing. A "no punishment" philosophy must be used with logic and reason, explaining natural consequences, how people feel about certain actions, what people will do if you do such a thing. Let them think about how they would feel if it was done to them... basically this method takes incredible amounts of time and patience and loving empathy, most parents (in America at least) are too busy dumping their kids in day care (no offense to the parents who have no choice, this is not directed at you if you need to make money for your family) or let the TV and video games babysit the kids (nothing wrong with TV and video games but if a parent over uses it as a distraction to get away from the kids this is bad)
That is indeed a very valid point, Fallout. While I don't necessary go against spanking, it should be done very sparingly. My parents used a combination of what you described and spanking while I was a small child. The former they employed a lot more.
 
P

Pacem

Guest
Replying to Altpersona:
I did my reply this way because putting in all those quotes would take up way too much space... so here it is.

1. Semantics are cool! :p
2. Perhaps, but the strongest did survive, no?
3. You have met one here.
4. No, it is not OK to sin again after getting forgiveness. This is actually dealt with in the Bible itself:
1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?


And finally, though there are more,
Hebrews 10:26-27
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.


5. Nothing that says we have to kill in our DNA? Actually you are correct, which is exactly my point. It refutes the evolutionist view that we are animals. We do have to kill animals for food even today, but that is not related.

6 and 7. The YMCA, the Salvation Army and the American Red Cross... what does that have to do with our argument?
Quite simply put, These are all Christian organizations at their roots. Dissect them if you wish, you will find the same thing. The Salvation Army would not be the Salvation Army without a Savior, the YMCA stands for Young Men's Christian Academy, and the American Red Cross has its roots in Christian origins. Its logo is that of a trunkated cross.

If you truely wish to delve into these in detail, I will gladly supply as much info as I can for each.

Now, what they have to do with our argument is that you had stated our world would be no different without God. I invite you to look at the first couple pages of this thread for info about that. We can discuss this in further detail if you wish.

8. It is true that everything Jesus said that we know today is found only in the Bible, and in the origional documents the Bible today came from. This does not invalidate his words though. There are cases that we know parts of history from just one historian source but we do not discount that. Was Jesus a fictitious character. That is opening up another can of worms I know, but the majority of scholars today both religious and secular believe in his existance, and the historians of antiquity, also both religious and secular back up that belief.

Archaeology is a different matter, backing up other areas of the Bible in great detail. We will go more into that at a later date.

9. Many think the Bible is not relevant for our time because its ancient origins. However, if you look closely enough, you will see that almost 100% of the situations people faced in the Bible are still faced today. Nothing has changed except the technological advancement.

10. Very well, I will let that one go then.

11. Ok I admit, weak example there. But again, that is exactly my point, we are NOT animals. As far as the second part of your statement here, my stand is still valid in practicality that in the animal kingdom it is not benificial. God knew this for us as well which was one reason why He called it a sin and told us not to do it.

12. About murder... reference the scripture provided above. It is not OK to sin after receiving forgiveness.

13. Hmmm, elaborate on this one if you don't mind?

14. I am sorry to hear that. That is what I try to do, lay the facts out. People may and certainly do disagree with them, but there they are.

15. Yes. But, in all my experiences, the other side almost never provides validating evidences to the contrary after I lay out mine. Most times they just resort to insults and say everything I believe is false anyway, never giving the reasons for saying it. If people give me the reasons, we can actually have constructive conversations (I know this statement will be picked apart).
 
T

The Fallout

Guest
That is indeed a very valid point, Fallout. While I don't necessary go against spanking, it should be done very sparingly. My parents used a combination of what you described and spanking while I was a small child. The former they employed a lot more.
I'd make the argument that spanking is never needed for any child and that punishment should be used very sparingly (if at all). Yet, if that is how your parents raised you, it is no surprise that you are at least respectful in your arguments, I'd hazard to guess that if spanking was more prominent you would not be so civil, as I have seen on many different forums of the internet (not just about religion but about anything)
 
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Pacem

Guest
Indeed, one of the things I was taught verbally was a continued respect for others, though even I as I'm sure everyone here lapses in at least once. On top of the values instilled into my by my parents were the values that were found in the Bible. Church was a major part of my life growing up, and gave to me a respect for passionate worship, respect for the elderly and their wisdom, and a sense of what true goodness is.

Though your scenario does not work for everyone, it does work for a great majority if done right.
 
T

The Fallout

Guest
Though your scenario does not work for everyone, it does work for a great majority if done right.
Just a question.... who would this not work for? What type of child?
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
1.^^b
2.Doesn't apply to what I said however I think I need to inform you that the saying "The strongest shall survive" is completely and utterly invalid. Simply becuase it's not the strongest that survives always, and infact for the most part it's the one that is most clever and no you can't bring semantics into this one.
3. Like you were going to say otherwise?
4. ^^b
5.^^b and we don't even need to kill animals so that comment wasn't needed.
6.7. Seriously, do not go down that road. That is an entire term in sociology. I care little what you think they are since what they are and what you think they are are two different things. Stay on topic because organisations like the red cross and such do not apply to what the topic was originaly intended for.

I never said anything LIKE, the world would be no different. In fact I said that alot would be different. Quote me but NEVER, speak for me since you haven't a clue about my ideology. STOP twisting what I'm saying (which I'm sure you'll apologise in your next post for making a mistake) and then using that mistake to requote yourself, trying to make your statements more valid. It is cheap and distasteful. If you don't have something to say don't post. It's like you're using one account as an alt account lol

8. If you want to get nitty gritty about it Jesus in the bible actualy IS a fictional character. In real life he would have been alittle different than what the bible says. Basicly anyone with goodstandards are saints when they die. I already said this doesn't invalidate What is written in the bible regarding morals but they arn't Jesus' words at all. They are the words of the people that have written the bible, and those men are far from perfect men and so have the same tendencie to faulter like the rest of us. If you look into how fickle human memory is you'll see anything they say he said can be put down to presumption. You'll be surprised how much we presume about our daily lives. Sorry to anyone who disagrees but if you think the homosapien named Jesus didn't exsis at some point in history to inspire this religion I think you're crazy. Something had to exsist to create this mess today wheather he was a crazy person is the debateable.

9. No point arguing with me I directed you to Nesto for his line of arguement. Though I will say it can't be 100% at all since if you think social polocies haven't changed since then, then I think that's the problem we have today regarding christianity.

10. ^^b

11. Have you learned nothing? So the animal kingdon was all "hell yeahs" for you when you thought it backed up your claim to havin no homos in it, but as soon as I inform you otherwise it's all "We are NOT animals" again lol So you are not allowed to enjoy sex? and not just sex, pleasure itself? You've never 'made love' you've just had sex with your female/male counter part?

12. ^^b you are sooo good with self-quoting.

13. Whoops lol totaly mis-read it but it's sorta along the same lines hahaha. What do you mean by this trancendence business?

14. Then what is the point of this whole debate for you? If it's not to teach us and turn is "to the way" lol then what is it? There's no point laying down the facts if you haven't an agenda to start with. Is it so you can feel as though you've earned a right for the gates of heaven to open to you for being a good christian? To feel like you have big cojones for knowing your scriptures? I however can't testify for that since I know little scripture. Or is it really just to troll? You knew this would stir up a wasp nest so why bother? In this light, you are seriously self-righteous arn't you my dear? ^^ Do you see why I like you now?


I may have messed up afew of the numbers but I think you'll get which Im talking about. The most important of that entire post is 14 for you Pacem.
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
On top of the values instilled into my by my parents were the values that were found in the Bible. Church was a major part of my life growing up, and gave to me a respect for passionate worship, respect for the elderly and their wisdom, and a sense of what true goodness is.

That is part of the issue for me. you people have your fingers in every pie so no matter what if you fancy a change of opinion you can claim anythin good to be yours. Any good moral has to have come from chritianity and anything bad is from the other people.

EDIT: I don't even want to touch that part of it lol
 

Aran

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ugh, I wish Hitler had been anti-Christian and done a better job of it.
 
P

Pacem

Guest
1. :)
2. And have you not read that "the strongest shall survive" truely IS a belief of many evolutionists? It is clear that you don't believe that... and quite frankly neither do I.
3 and 4. :)
5. Animal meat provides protein that most plant species cannot provide. Though I will say people also live healthy lives being vegetarian which I have no problem with at all.
Romans 14:6-8
6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.
8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

6. Since you care little what I think, then I can pretty much say what I want. Organizations like that ARE on topic because of their roots in Christianity and the good they have done for society as a whole, and helping the individual. To negate these groups saying they really do not do any good is showing that you do not know much about them at all.
7. Fine, I won't appologize then if that makes you happy. But still it is quite on topic.
8. How do you know the Jesus of the Bible never existed?
9. Problem is, you just an entire faith by the faults of a few people. Just like many (I'm not saying you) reguard all muslims as evil when they are not.
10. :)
11. Have you not heard what I said before? Of COURSE we are not animals!
The reason I went back to we are not animals again was that I was playind devil's advocate, saying we were and trying to back up the naturalistic view when in actuality I didn't buy any of that view at all. I knew all along that we are not animals. Don't believe me? Fine I can live with that. :)
12. You are so good at misreading what I say, just as you claim I misread what you say and misquote you... interesting hmmm? Of course you'll say you have not, and I fully expect that. Moving on...
13. Transcendence as in when we stopped being animals and started being people... but that is a moot point now cause you know where I stand on it (never were animals) so this part can be pretty much dropped.
14. Actually, hardly any of that will get someone into heaven. :) I cannot earn salvation on my own, no one can. The only way to get salvation is by the grace of God, and yes, accepting Jesus. Call me closed minded with tunnel vision, that is fine with me. If that is the case then God has the same mind and vision that I do, cause Jesus is the only way.
I know I'll stir up a bunch more crap for saying this, and I usually do lolz.
I DO know a good deal of scripture but there is a lot more I need to know. It is a continual learning process.

Anyhoo, this wasn't a troll at first but it seems to be turning out that way doesn't it? We've both exchanged good info, and harsh words at the same time. Besides, once it turns into only insults we don't really get anywhere do we?

I didn't think that even in stratics there would be such dedicated posters that hang around. That is truely amazing to me (I can't say much cause I've been here all day too).
We obviously cannot convince each other, so perhaps the best thing we can do is nip this in the bud before it gets worse, and ponder what we have relayed to each other in the very least. I can certainly continue if you want, but this is just an option.
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
hehe ^^b as expected. It was you that lowered the tone. I just choose to follow suit. Go post this on OT-NHB will be interesting to see what a larger portion of the stratics community will think.
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
Actualy, I really would like to know why you started this thread. You gracefully skirted the question but I'd like an anwser if you don't mind.
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
11. Have you not heard what I said before? Of COURSE we are not animals!
The reason I went back to we are not animals again was that I was playind devil's advocate, saying we were and trying to back up the naturalistic view when in actuality I didn't buy any of that view at all. I knew all along that we are not animals. Don't believe me? Fine I can live with that. :)

14. Call me closed minded with tunnel vision, that is fine with me. If that is the case then God has the same mind and vision that I do, cause Jesus is the only way.
Just had to add these two are UO GOLD! Seriously, I tried putting them in my sig but they wouldn't fit lol. I may try and take a pic to get it in there.
 
P

Pacem

Guest
Valid question.

I knew full well that a very big hornet's nest would be stirred up by initially posting what I did. I knew there would be much discussion on the topic, with both sides talked about at length. This was my intention from the start.

This thread exists mainly for the purpose of other people to look at, see all that has been discussed from both sides, and perhaps draw their own conclusions from all that has been talked about. You see this thread has over 2,000 viewings, most likely half of which are multiple viewings by people to see how the thread progresses as well as by people such as ourselves that are actively participating.

It was my intention when I started this thread to come in with good info that people can look up (not just saying, "Hi everyone, God exists!") and then come back and talk about it. I think for the most part this has gone very well.
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
I'm mostly satisfied with that anwser. Beautifully formed I must say. Though I'm more interested in this part.

It was my intention when I started this thread to come in with good info that people can look up (not just saying, "Hi everyone, God exists!") and then come back and talk about it. I think for the most part this has gone very well.
If you will, why?
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
I'm just trying to get down to bottom of why you wanted to post it. I gave you my agenda I'm just searching for yours, and yes it's that important to me. With most threads it's obvious why but, with this, it's a sticky subject matter and so really needs the OPs clarification.
 
P

Pacem

Guest
I'm mostly satisfied with that anwser. Beautifully formed I must say. Though I'm more interested in this part.



If you will, why?
An exercising of the mind.
Besides the reasons that I have already stated, it is also the purpose of this thread to not only better understand where others stand, but to also make people look at themselves as well, to encourage them to look into and think about why they believe what they do, one way or the other, and examine what exactly backs up said beliefs to see if they indeed have any validity.

Many people today do not really look into why they believe whatever they do. It never ceases to amaze me that when I ask someone why they don't believe in God, I literally get the response "I don't know." "No reason." "I just don't." This thread exists partly in response to that.

But the core intent of this thread is to tell others the Good News. Let people take that however they want to (for that is their right), but this is the main purpose.

I submit this thread for the viewing of all. Let the reader through logic and reasoning, and dare I say it, guided by God, form your own conclusion.
 
A

Altpersona

Guest
Thank you for replying ^^b it's amazing what one scathing post on modern life can evolve into. I'm actualy quite jealous you have such faith in that book. An entire belief structure built upon it's unquestionable pages, just simply maverlous.

This has been an interesting thread to say the least. ^^b I wish you well.
 
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