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The Big Economy Thread

A

AesSedai

Guest
...

Lopping zeros off of everyone's gold stash isn't going to do anything when the Luna vendor prices will simply remain the same. In fact you're bound to screw up the entire system with such a plan due to two issues:

1. If you do it with NO warning, you're going to end up with a LOT of accounts being cancelled due to seeing what they have worked for being stolen away for no apparent reason than "it's for your own good" (or worse, "it's for the greater good").

2. If you give people prior warning, all they have to do is go out and dump all of their gold into stackable resources/commodities. Ingots, bottles, arrows, gems, etc. Simply buy out as much as possible, then sell post-gold nuke and you're right back where you were with a minimal of loss.
:thumbup:
- AYE.. I agree.

That -alone- is not a beneficial solution. And luckily, perhaps unlike in the real world: here in UO there is a completely viable, rather simple in the grande scheme, solution to fix all that is wrong with the 'big' economy... it is amazing what observant developers with a good database and a closed world could accomplish.. almost overnight, and without noticable loss of population.. except for the old (un)necessary bureaocratic red tape. And they don't care if we fade; they would just call us natural degredation and decay [aye, not talking about players here..]. Only option is to convince them. But alas: is all for naught if illegal gameplay is not prevented and/or dealt with swiftly pre&post-hand?

Cheating is still bad (and must be considered as a prominent variable when regarding solutions to the subject of this 'big' thread)...
Convince them. pls.
 

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
JC, what you are perceiving is commonly called "The Money Illusion". It is a concept first given by Keynes (of Keynesian economics fame).......
I actually went and read the wiki articles related to this. I am not suffering from a "Money Illusion". My perception is based on the restricted economy and I am providing estimations on what a Dragon gold drop would need to be increased to in order for it to reflect a balancing of the economy around today's inflation. Maybe that won't make sense, I am not explaining myself very clearly.

Lets take a Greater Healing Potion. Why has does it cost only 30 gold when the prices of many other UO items has risen so dramatically? The reagents have a fixed price of 2/3 gold and the bottle only costs 5 gold. If a crafter attempted to offer that potion for what it is really worth, lets say 1,000 gold, they would be laughed at. A player would either make it themself or buy it from someone else, likely a scripter cranking them out because time means nothing to them. If the value of reagents and bottles were not fixed, then they would go up dramatically like the value of colored ingots.

I did a search on our forum and one crafter is selling bulk items in these amounts.



I guess prices have risen a bit in the past year. 15k for a trapped box? That is made up of 10 pieces of wood, 1 ingot and 1 dart. Who said crafters could not make a living anymore! Even at 250 gold a piece I believe the prices of potions are still lower than they should be.

*Added*

Wow, I didn't realize potions were spiking this much.

In October 2008 it was 75 gold per potion.
In October 2010 it was 155 gold per potion.
That picture above is from a couple months ago. I went to the guy's shop in-game and he is only selling only has 10,000 potion lots available for 2,250,000 gold.
 

Theo_GL

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I think a 90% gold wipe and some better controls from the devs are the best option.
Sounds great to me. Most of my wealth is in items so if you take away my gold - that makes me richer than someone with lots of gold in their pockets.

If gold drop rates don't change -wiping gold won't change prices.

The price of an item equates to ease of acquiring the item vs other uses of your time.

Even if no gold exists anymore - i wouldn't drop the price of a crimson to 1 gp because you can kill monsters and make thousands per hour. You can do champ spawns and get 250k or more.

The issue is either i wait till someone acquires the 12 mil its worth (time value vs gold) or I'll trade it for something of like value.

Wiping gold is not a solution if you don't wipe all items as well.
 

virtualhabitat

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I actually went and read the wiki articles related to this. I am not suffering from a "Money Illusion". My perception is based on the restricted economy and I am providing estimations on what a Dragon gold drop would need to be increased to in order for it to reflect a balancing of the economy around today's inflation. Maybe that won't make sense, I am not explaining myself very clearly.

Lets take a Greater Healing Potion. Why has does it cost only 30 gold when the prices of many other UO items has risen so dramatically? The reagents have a fixed price of 2/3 gold and the bottle only costs 5 gold. If a crafter attempted to offer that potion for what it is really worth, lets say 1,000 gold, they would be laughed at. A player would either make it themself or buy it from someone else, likely a scripter cranking them out because time means nothing to them. If the value of reagents and bottles were not fixed, then they would go up dramatically like the value of colored ingots.

I did a search on our forum and one crafter is selling bulk items in these amounts.



I guess prices have risen a bit in the past year. 15k for a trapped box? That is made up of 10 pieces of wood, 1 ingot and 1 dart. Who said crafters could not make a living anymore! Even at 250 gold a piece I believe the prices of potions are still lower than they should be.

*Added*

Wow, I didn't realize potions were spiking this much.

In October 2008 it was 75 gold per potion.
In October 2010 it was 155 gold per potion.
That picture above is from a couple months ago. I went to the guy's shop in-game and he is only selling only has 10,000 potion lots available for 2,250,000 gold.

First, I didn't mean to imply you were 'suffering' from anything. Keynesian economics is difficult to explain and understand. If I have to look at another marginal propensity to consume or consumption function again in my lifetime I will probably shoot up a post office somewhere.

I went to a search website that searches Luna vendors. I don't know if it is ok to post the address here, but I would be happy to give it to you via PM.
On this site I did a search for greater poison potions. Most shards had numerous vendors selling kegs and 100 deeds for 5k-6500k.
That is 50,000 - 65,000 per 1000 potions. The cheapest I saw on ATLantic shard GP, GC, and GH kegs all for 5,500 each. That's 55,000 per 1000 potions.
I don't know how you came to the 400,000 number for GP, but it was quite easy to find Luna vendors selling extremely far below that number.
I don't even play on that shard and it was about 5 seconds to find potion vendors all over the place.

If your vendor's business is brisk and he is selling potions for that amount then his customers are paying in part for the convenience of being able to buy in such large quantity -not to get a break on the price per. Either that or they simply don't know or care that in Luna there is a vendor selling the same thing for less than 15% of his ask.

Consider. I just bought four kegs of potions 9 days ago when I started some seeds. I didn't pay more than 5k for any one of those kegs and the greater strength keg was 4k.
Yet down the road in the same vendor mall there is a guy selling potions in lots of 1000 and 10000 for EIGHT TIMES that amount per potion.
If that isn't a disconnect between real and nominal value I don't know what is.

It's like there are two separate economies side by side (often selling the exact same merchandise), yet they rarely, if ever, intersect.
 

Derium of ls

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
sorry, but I gotta plug gambling here again.

So let's say they make the poker/dice/whatever game HUD. Yes there is a 'chance' gold gets added faster than removed... But we all know that casinos don't go bust.

It's a gold sink, it gives no advantage to anyone who plays. Heck, it gives advantage to people with less gold because rich people might wager more, hence lose more.

It provides something everyone who takes part enjoys... Gambling.

I've seen it done on *ahem* shards before and it works really well. EA does not give Gold in game a 2nd market value, therefore it's legal to do in game.

What if people disagree and don't want to gamble? Then done, you're not "missing out on the new UO crazy" by not gambling.

I'm not saying this is the only gold sink needed, but it's a good on IMHO. If you look at EVE and plenty of other newer games too, they are adding in things like that because it's a surefire gold sink that makes people happy.

What's the Mag lotto? Or yeah, that's right it's gambling. I have 1 billion set aside for the lotto. I already own my own multi-home private island on LS that I'm keeping even if I win. So why did I buy tickets? Because I like to gamble that's why. I have a chance to make gold if I hit. Since this has been one of the rare chances to place a wager in UO, I'm going to do it.
 

Derium of ls

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
other ideas (freemium kinda)

Add basements, but charge an upkeep for them. If you fail to pay the upkeep cost your items get packed into a moving crate on your main floor.

increased storage for an upkeep, goes along with basements.

Shard wide lotto system, the 'house' keeps 25% (yes yes more gambling)

Second bank storage that's rentable. If you default then it's put into a 7 day moving crate in your main bank box.

A spring clean up that accepts only gold.

it's 5am, I'll post more later
 

Petra Fyde

Peerless Chatterbox
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
While the Magincia lotto is gambling, it's finite, it will only be in game for a very short period. I know someone who went to play where there was regular poker in game. He ended up farming monsters to get gold to play. Totally hooked.

I don't know what the answer to the economy is, but I sincerely hope permanent in game gambling isn't it.
 

Cirno

Purple Pony Princess
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
sorry, but I gotta plug gambling here again.

So let's say they make the poker/dice/whatever game HUD. Yes there is a 'chance' gold gets added faster than removed... But we all know that casinos don't go bust.

It's a gold sink, it gives no advantage to anyone who plays. Heck, it gives advantage to people with less gold because rich people might wager more, hence lose more.

It provides something everyone who takes part enjoys... Gambling.

I've seen it done on *ahem* shards before and it works really well. EA does not give Gold in game a 2nd market value, therefore it's legal to do in game.

What if people disagree and don't want to gamble? Then done, you're not "missing out on the new UO crazy" by not gambling.

I'm not saying this is the only gold sink needed, but it's a good on IMHO. If you look at EVE and plenty of other newer games too, they are adding in things like that because it's a surefire gold sink that makes people happy.

What's the Mag lotto? Or yeah, that's right it's gambling. I have 1 billion set aside for the lotto. I already own my own multi-home private island on LS that I'm keeping even if I win. So why did I buy tickets? Because I like to gamble that's why. I have a chance to make gold if I hit. Since this has been one of the rare chances to place a wager in UO, I'm going to do it.
There is a potential problem with gambling.
If the virtual currency has a real world value, as gold does as a result of the "grey market" of gold-selling, then the in-game gambling could be seen to run afoul of real-world gambling laws.
I think it was Sony that ran into troubles over that, some years back
 
G

grig_since98

Guest
After thinking a while about this, I've decided to reply. I have actually read most of the posts in this thread, and I've seen several things I agree with, and several I don't.

I think most important is defining the problem, as was mentioned early in the thread. I've seen a lot of numbers tossed around that are suspiciously round. What are the actual numbers we're talking about. How much gold really is in the UO economy, and what is the rate that gold is currently entering it. Do the developers/GMs/whatever know, or have a means to know, how much gold is in the game? Is there a "tally gold" button or whatever that will add up all the gold in the world? Does anyone have data concerning the ratio of the amount of gold to its purchasing power, and how that has changed over time?

Several posters have asked, as I will now, does inflation exist in UO, and if so, is it actually a problem? As many have said, it doesn't matter how many zero's exist in your gold stack, what matters is how many goods or services that gold will obtain. Has the amount of potions or wood that can be purchased with a certain amount of gold actually changed in real terms? If the average amount of gold per account is ( to just throw out a number) 20 million gold ( I know a lot of people have hundreds of millions, but I bet the average is much lower ) today, and it was 5 million 5 years ago, has the cost of goods changed at the same rate? If so, is inflation really a problem? If costs have kept up with the amount of gold, which I believe to be approximately the case from personal observation, then the focus should be on new/returning players, as their gold *hasn't* kept up with costs.

On the other side of that, is the disparity in the amount of gold for certain accounts bad? After all, veteran accounts are rewarded with veteran awards that, by definition, are generally not available to newer accounts. There isn't any true scarcity in the game, as you actually don't need as much gold as people complain they don't have to play the game. Your character can't starve.

Even as gold as gone up in quantity, the NPC prices haven't changed as far as I can tell. Knowing that, can it actually be argued that the economy is *deflationary*, since you're continuously adding gold, but the price to obtain goods from NPCs hasn't changed, which means you have more purchasing power?

My opinion, for what its worth, is to 1. gradually make the economy on all the shards more "siege-esque". Make it so new tagged accounts or accounts that have two or three years of cancellation time can purchase more goods than other accounts from NPCs. 2. I know this sounds stupid, but increase the gold drop from lower tier monsters, as one of the developers suggested. This will give lower skill players a chance to enter the economy, but probably won't be worth it to more established players with more reliable sources of gold.

Finally, I think they should revalue the currency. I KNOW this probably won't effect real spending power. The fact is, however, I'm playing an RPG, and it sort of breaks my suspension of reality to have to accept that my character is carting around thousands of gold to purchase things. I like the idea that for sundry purchases my character will drop a few base metal coins in someone's hand. Bank checks aren't too much better. Since it has almost become the case anyhow, the million gold check should just become a fiat currency if nothing else changes.

This final point is why I'm against virtualization. I like the idea of physically moving gold around, or at least checks, to make purchases, no matter how much trouble it causes.
 
G

grig_since98

Guest
As an aside to my previous post, I support the gambling idea. I don't really know if it has any benefits apropos inflation, but the fact is, I like to gamble. I really like to gamble where there is the sensation of risk but at the end of the day there isn't any real money on the line.
 

hawkeye_pike

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
To my opinion, there are two ways of handling the issue correctly:

1. Limiting the total amount of gold on a shard.
The more gold is drawn out of the system (by looting monsters), the less gold will be available through monsters, and the more NPC shopkeepers (and player vendors, through additional taxes) will charge for their goods. For this to work, you have to make sure that gold remains in circulation. This means, people should not be encouraged to hoard gold, but to spend it. Taxes on hoarded gold seem like a good possibility to achieve that.

2. Reduce the meaning of gold in player-to-player trading

Encourage players NOT to sell items for insane amounts of gold, but rather to trade items for other items. For this to work, a trading system needs to be established where player can offer their wares and ask for other wares in return. Like: "Selling Virtuous Breastplate of Thunder for 100 valorite ingots and 50 essence of singularity".

The point is, if gold is drawn out of the system, you have to find ways so player will return their gold back into the system (aka "gold sinks").

Gold storage is only a secondary issue. On the contrary, I would even limit the amount of gold that can be stored in a bank box or any other container.
 

hawkeye_pike

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Re: On Reagents

What I'm essentially asking here is how much is that LRC actually worth to you, and why?
LRC is worth to me more than any other mod, because I always hated the hassle of worrying about reagents. But then again, I might not be the typical UO player who would do anything just to have the uber suit that defeats all my enemies.
 

T-Hunt

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
OK trying to figure out how to remove gold from the game on a perma base.

Lower the amount on monsters by 50% to start but add more items...
Most people never pick up half whats on them, unless they unravel for essens..

And how many people go and sell the items to npc vendors for gold?...1 or 2 ?

Do a Seige move..npc will onlu buy certain things from you ,thats it , and charge alot for other items.

This way , people will have to do more trading for stuff , and for the ones who dont want to go buy from a npc . perma gold gone..

Come up with ideas on removing the gold, not on ways to just move it around..
 

G.v.P

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
2> Preferably gold sinks should be recurring.
From Shipmonger npcs:
* 5-day auto-refresh token for ship (100k small ships/200k for brit ship) -- keeps one ship afloat for vacation time or leisure, if possible to code
* 10-day auto-refresh token for ship (250k small ships/500k for brit ship) -- keeps one ship afloat for vacation time or leisure, if possible to code

From Blacksmith Guildmaster in Minoc (The Forgery):
* 1x forging contract deed (500k) -- operates like the forged metal tool except only gives a 50% chance of succeeding.
* Passive bonus: +5 Blacksmithy bonus while crafting at The Forgery (similar to how the queen's soulforge is a must for imbuers)

New Jhelom Hirelings:
* First fix the current bug

* Archer NPC: 70/90/20 bow, 100 arch, Air Ele AI, 2 follower slots, 45/45/45/45/45 (20k per day) [parry training]
* Dexxer NPC: 80/85/10 broadsword/heater, 100 swords, 100 parry, 4 follower slots, 60/50/40/50/40 (10k per day) [parry/wep skill training]
* Necro Mage NPC (same stats and AI as a the things in old haven), 2 follower slots (30k per day) [resist training]

Regarding the idea of taxes, I'm against any form of arbitrary taxation system.
Good to know :)
 
G

grig_since98

Guest
To my opinion, there are two ways of handling the issue correctly:

1. Limiting the total amount of gold on a shard.
The more gold is drawn out of the system (by looting monsters), the less gold will be available through monsters, and the more NPC shopkeepers (and player vendors, through additional taxes) will charge for their goods. For this to work, you have to make sure that gold remains in circulation. This means, people should not be encouraged to hoard gold, but to spend it. Taxes on hoarded gold seem like a good possibility to achieve that.

2. Reduce the meaning of gold in player-to-player trading

Encourage players NOT to sell items for insane amounts of gold, but rather to trade items for other items. For this to work, a trading system needs to be established where player can offer their wares and ask for other wares in return. Like: "Selling Virtuous Breastplate of Thunder for 100 valorite ingots and 50 essence of singularity".

The point is, if gold is drawn out of the system, you have to find ways so player will return their gold back into the system (aka "gold sinks").

Gold storage is only a secondary issue. On the contrary, I would even limit the amount of gold that can be stored in a bank box or any other container.
If you're going to reduce money dropped by monsters ( rather than increase it) , then I definitely think it should be a scheme like your number 1. Isn't this how UO was orginally supposed to work? Just like the NPCs that could have a conversation with you?

Number 2 I have reservations about, because by setting up a scheme that makes it easier to find people who are bartering what you happen to need and want what you have, aren't you just replicating one of the functions of money, namely, the coincidence of needs issue? Would such a system just encourage people to use something as currency, like iron ingots or gemstones?
 

virtualhabitat

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I think most important is defining the problem, as was mentioned early in the thread. I've seen a lot of numbers tossed around that are suspiciously round. What are the actual numbers we're talking about. How much gold really is in the UO economy, and what is the rate that gold is currently entering it. Do the developers/GMs/whatever know, or have a means to know, how much gold is in the game? Is there a "tally gold" button or whatever that will add up all the gold in the world? Does anyone have data concerning the ratio of the amount of gold to its purchasing power, and how that has changed over time?
It is true everyone here, excepting possibly the OP, is working with imperfect information. Still, there does seem to be a general perception of high inflation among players.

On the other side of that, is the disparity in the amount of gold for certain accounts bad? After all, veteran accounts are rewarded with veteran awards that, by definition, are generally not available to newer accounts. There isn't any true scarcity in the game, as you actually don't need as much gold as people complain they don't have to play the game. Your character can't starve.
Disparity in of itself is not a bad thing. Players who have played longer should have more wealth either in items, real estate, gold, or some combination thereof. For my part, I wouldn't suggest players should all have the same amount of anything, gold or otherwise. Some players probably play so they can see what a castle filled with as much gold as it can hold looks like. They should be able to do this.

I think there is a perception that some parts of the economy are closed to significant portions of the playerbase. I started UO recently. two days ago I was chatting with a PvP guy and he asked me if I was interested in PvP. I said sure, but my interest isn't enough. That's ok to a point. I should expect to earn my gear and experience. Having it handed to me on a silver platter would be no fun.
But PvP in UO is a little more complicated. Here this guy is giving me advice on templates and then turns and says he spent 60 some-odd million on his PvP suit. I haven't even finished adding up the cost of scrolls (stat/skill) and I need 60 million+ more? I realize you guys have been at it for a while, but take a moment and listen to how that sounds. Perception is everything in every economy -real or virtual.



Even as gold as gone up in quantity, the NPC prices haven't changed as far as I can tell. Knowing that, can it actually be argued that the economy is *deflationary*, since you're continuously adding gold, but the price to obtain goods from NPCs hasn't changed, which means you have more purchasing power?
You could make the argument, but the goods in high demand that are driving the inflation do not originate from NPC resources. Sure, potions, magic scrolls, and a smattering of misc. products come from NPC's that people do consume, but these goods have been insulated from the inflation because NPC's always have it in stock, always sell at a fixed low price, and the products are made by lots and lots of crafters filling the demand on an as needed basis.

My opinion, for what its worth, is to 1. gradually make the economy on all the shards more "siege-esque". Make it so new tagged accounts or accounts that have two or three years of cancellation time can purchase more goods than other accounts from NPCs. 2. I know this sounds stupid, but increase the gold drop from lower tier monsters, as one of the developers suggested. This will give lower skill players a chance to enter the economy, but probably won't be worth it to more established players with more reliable sources of gold.
Earlier in this thread I was trading posts with someone and it spurred me to read up on Siege. It is interesting that Siege players do not seem to have the same perception of their economy as those on production shards do.
I think there is a case for the idea that things should wear out, and wear out often. There is also a very good case for putting production of goods into the hands of players rather than depending on the RNG to fill demand.

As I understand it, on Siege, virtually all gear is produced by another player and the RNG is only a supplement to high demand goods. This makes good sense if for no other reason than the fact that an RNG cannot possibly know if a population wants to wear green sashes or purple ones.

On production shards, it is the RNG that determines how available a given good is. As tastes and tactics change, the RNG is oblivious to the new set of conditions and we get a bunch of "high end crap" nobody wants and not enough high end good stuff nobody can get. I don't get the impression Siege experiences what I am calling the tyranny of the RNG quite like the other shards do.

Finally, I think they should revalue the currency. I KNOW this probably won't effect real spending power. The fact is, however, I'm playing an RPG, and it sort of breaks my suspension of reality to have to accept that my character is carting around thousands of gold to purchase things. I like the idea that for sundry purchases my character will drop a few base metal coins in someone's hand. Bank checks aren't too much better. Since it has almost become the case anyhow, the million gold check should just become a fiat currency if nothing else changes.

This final point is why I'm against virtualization. I like the idea of physically moving gold around, or at least checks, to make purchases, no matter how much trouble it causes.
I am not a fan of virtualization either. I would like to point out though, that because UO gold does not possess any intrinsic value, it is, by definition, fiat currency no matter what form it takes. (checks, coins, or virtual)

If you could smelt it into gold ingots, well that would be an interesting development.
 

Basara

UO Forum Moderator
Moderator
Professional
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
I'm surprised my previous post elicited ZERO responses.

So, I'll repost it with a bit more thought into it...

Suggestion: LRC as a Gold Sink

Facts:
Most reagents cost 3-7 each on standard shards (triple on Siege). They are pain to purchase in any reasonable quantity, unless someone else has already went through said pain to run the respawn amounts up.

This difficulty, along with the competition with scribes and alchemists for the merchant output, is what made LRC demand explode beyond the designers' expectations - not the cost.

Implementation changes:
In this suggestion, LRC would be transformed into a gold sink, as opposed to being a contributor to the gold issue. It would also allow people to keep their LRC suits intact.

While remaining an "All or nothing" proposition, LRC would be changed to take into account that spells can have up to 4 Reagents, or take tithing.

a. LRC will have a Gold cost PER REAGENT of a set amount, for the spell skills that use physical reagents. This cost will be substantially more than the cost of the reagent costs; either a flat cost somewhere around 10 to 25 per reagent (20-50 on SP), or the base cost of the individual reagents times a modifier. Either of these would be easy to code, as the game already has checks for each spell for each individual reagent required. It would also make it possible to have LRC replace only missing reagents, instead of charging for all, should the programmers choose. It would retain its current 100% LRC cap. So, using LRC to cast a 4-reagent magery spell could cost 40 to as much as 100 gold, instead of the 12-16 gold that the reagents would have cost.

b. For Chivalry users, instead of replacing tithing, LRC would act as Lower Tithing Cost (similar to LMC), and would be capped at 40% (also like LRC). This eliminates the current "free" casting of a Paladin in a 100% LRC suit.

c. This change could also be implemented to finally allow Scribes to utilize LRC, at similar or higher costs as in a. Alchemists would still have to have the physical reagents, for obvious reasons.

d. Bushido, Ninjitsu and Spellweaving currently have no reagents for their powers/spells, which is a bit of an unbalancing effect. consideration should be made to add some sort of cost to them to be affected by LRC.*


Result:

This way, LRC becomes a convenience for the wealthy, not a neccessity, and could even become a liability under some circumstances. Younger characters, the poor, and the thrifty would find Reagent use to be preferable to the high cost of LRC. PvP types would have to choose between risking the consumption of their insurance money, or carrying regs that can be stolen. And, those that use LRC will be quickly removing gold from the game every day. And, alchemists would then be the only competition with those choosing the cheaper reagent methods.

_________________________________________________________


*Reagent/cost suggestions for the skills currently without -:
Add Spellweaving reagents (new or retasked), LRC functioning as for the spellcasters.
While Samurai desire fame, Ninja wish to stay in the shadows. Have Bushido spells have fame points as a tithe-like reagent, and Ninja will have fame GAIN as sort of an inverse tithing, gaining fame every time they use a power.
Bushido & Ninja powers would then have a scalar added (similar to how karma works for Chiv and necro) based on fame, with Bushido becoming more powerful from high fame, and Ninja being more powerful from being closer to zero. The fame changes would be subject to the tithing reduction cap above, but would have the fame change avoided with the LRC cost gold for each point reduced.
 

hawkeye_pike

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Number 2 I have reservations about, because by setting up a scheme that makes it easier to find people who are bartering what you happen to need and want what you have, aren't you just replicating one of the functions of money, namely, the coincidence of needs issue? Would such a system just encourage people to use something as currency, like iron ingots or gemstones?
Good point, I hadn't thought of that.
 

hawkeye_pike

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Suggestion: LRC as a Gold Sink
[...]
I understand your suggestions and I am sure that technically it would work.

However, I wish the new gold sinks would not make the game more tedious and annoying for less rich players. The plan could easily backfire.
 
W

Woodsman

Guest
There is a potential problem with gambling.
If the virtual currency has a real world value, as gold does as a result of the "grey market" of gold-selling, then the in-game gambling could be seen to run afoul of real-world gambling laws.
I think it was Sony that ran into troubles over that, some years back
Second Life - Linden Labs defines a real-world value for their in-game currency, to the point where you can officially cash out in-game currency for real money. It's caused problems for them with in-game gambling and has raised issues in regards to whether they should be treated like some kind of bank since they are offering currency exchanges. There have even been third-party "banks" in-game that had over a half a million dollars in real-world value.

They officially banned in-game gambling a few years back because of the new internet gambling regulations being passed by the US and others, and it caused a lot of problems for them.

I think EA officially bans the sale of virtual items in its games, as do many others, to keep from getting into that mess (well that and many other reasons). Whether they turn a blind eye is another story, but they don't sanction the sale of virtual items and don't assign values to in-game gold. Linden Labs on the other hand, has an official system to allow you to move real world money into in-game currency and then back to real-world money.
 

Cirno

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Second Life - Linden Labs defines a real-world value for their in-game currency, to the point where you can officially cash out in-game currency for real money. It's caused problems for them with in-game gambling and has raised issues in regards to whether they should be treated like some kind of bank since they are offering currency exchanges. There have even been third-party "banks" in-game that had over a half a million dollars in real-world value.

They officially banned in-game gambling a few years back because of the new internet gambling regulations being passed by the US and others, and it caused a lot of problems for them.
Do you have any links for that?
My experiences with SL are limited, so I'm interested in reading more about this, especially since it makes for a far better example of the gambling point than "I think something like that happened to Sony some years ago" :)
 
W

Woodsman

Guest
Do you have any links for that?
My experiences with SL are limited, so I'm interested in reading more about this, especially since it makes for a far better example of the gambling point than "I think something like that happened to Sony some years ago" :)
Second Life Gambling Ban Gets Mixed Reaction -- InformationWeek

Cheer Up, Ben: Your Economy Isn't As Bad as This One - WSJ.com

Second Life had a huge gambling problem since you could win in-game money and then going through Linden Labs, cash it out for real life money, which could circumvent a lot of gambling laws. The second article gets into the in-game banking that was going on.

There aren't many games that allow you to exchange in-game currency for real-world currency - SL might be the only one.

If you want a look at the extreme of in-game economies, CCP just released their quarterly in-game economics report for EVE Online a few days ago:

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=892

Direct Link (PDF): http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf

I say extreme - CCP will actively ban players for buying and selling gold, which is why a lot of people look at their economy. The fact that they pay people to write up economic reports every quarter for the in-game economy, as well as tracking in-game economic trends, is pretty insane. It is much easier though since they only have one server for the majority of players (China has its own isolated server) and since a lot of what happens can have in-game values assigned to it.

Those are both extremes - Second Life because it officially allows for real-money transactions, and EVE Online because they actively ban players who buy gold/virtual items and because they only have one server for the majority of players.

UO's economy is so hard to pigeon-hole. Siege I think parallels EVE Online, since stuff is constantly being destroyed/lost, but the main UO shards, it's tough.
 

Cirno

Purple Pony Princess
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Thanks for that :)
Now to find the time to read it
 

T-Hunt

Sage
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Project Entropia is another game using real life cash in or out...

Look at the guy Neverdie who purchased a space station then rented parts of it off ,plus hunting rites.

In that game everything cost money, repairs,ammo,minning and drilling tools.

There is no coin drops only items or larger amounts of items that can be sold to players or npc..

Its almost like second life..

Maybe UO can study it and other such games to get a idea on what they can implament for gold sinks..
 
T

Trebr Drab

Guest
Project Entropia is another game using real life cash in or out...

Look at the guy Neverdie who purchased a space station then rented parts of it off ,plus hunting rites.

In that game everything cost money, repairs,ammo,minning and drilling tools.

There is no coin drops only items or larger amounts of items that can be sold to players or npc..

Its almost like second life..

Maybe UO can study it and other such games to get a idea on what they can implament for gold sinks..
I think UO needs to use their own heads and forget what other games are doing. Most of them are not doing well. Don't import problems and don't import ideas based on other game systems. Generic ideas like flaming swords are another matter, of course.
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
Okay okay, I know you're stuck with this, Mike, but you know - ya gotta know - that this is like adjusting a picture frame in a house on fire ;)

Item obsession...gold obsession, what folks call pixel crack is simply end-stage game attachment when folks have gone through the content. All game economies break, and the amount of gold per player is best fixed by having more players than it is about having less gold.

Let's come at it another way. Don't drain the swamp. Just hand out gold....by the billions....give everyone, say, 50 billion in UO gold. Nah, make it 100. Now they'd have to find something else to do and maybe that something would be far more interesting than all this buying and selling nonsense.

What would have value then? People who made things. People who did things. But people could make anything, you say....they could buy all the ingredients, all the ingots, essences, seeds of renewal and so forth.

No they wouldn't. If gold were near infinite, somebody would still have to get the stuff and how would you pay them for it? Would the game just stop and people file out the door? Doubtful. They'd have to devise fresh ways interacting with one another, of paying for things, of exchanging value.

This is just a thought experiment of course. Without their fantasies of wealth to sustain their feeling of investment, loads of people would leave the game.

Nonetheless it's reasonable to assert that the game doesn't need less gold. It needs more content. It needs fresh players. In such a world they'd be a precious commodity indeed - perhaps the most precious commodity of all.
-
 

JC the Builder

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I went to a search website that searches Luna vendors. I don't know if it is ok to post the address here, but I would be happy to give it to you via PM.
On this site I did a search for greater poison potions. Most shards had numerous vendors selling kegs and 100 deeds for 5k-6500k.
That is 50,000 - 65,000 per 1000 potions. The cheapest I saw on ATLantic shard GP, GC, and GH kegs all for 5,500 each. That's 55,000 per 1000 potions.
I don't know how you came to the 400,000 number for GP, but it was quite easy to find Luna vendors selling extremely far below that number.
I don't even play on that shard and it was about 5 seconds to find potion vendors all over the place.

If your vendor's business is brisk and he is selling potions for that amount then his customers are paying in part for the convenience of being able to buy in such large quantity -not to get a break on the price per. Either that or they simply don't know or care that in Luna there is a vendor selling the same thing for less than 15% of his ask.
These are/were major potion suppliers on Atlantic. I believe our guild put in orders every week or so. They would have lowered their prices if they were not selling.

Since the potions stacking change PVPers buy them in bottles, not kegs. Also, poison potions are used a lot less than Greater Heal/Cure/Refresh. They are also more difficult to make and use more resources. So it is a much more stable indicator to track Greater Healing Potions.

There are many examples that can be extrapolated. Phoenix armor originally cost 100,000 gold pieces in the clean up britannia ticket system. Early on they cost about 500,000 gold pieces as a rare item. A couple years later they were 1 million, then 2 million. Then 5 million. A couple weeks ago there was a bid of 400 million for a complete suit, which averages 66 million a piece. Some of this increase can be attributed to demand and a possible slightly decreasing supply. But to go from 2 million to 66 million, there is a lot of inflation in there.
 
U

UOKaiser

Guest
These are/were major potion suppliers on Atlantic. I believe our guild put in orders every week or so. They would have lowered their prices if they were not selling.

Since the potions stacking change PVPers buy them in bottles, not kegs. Also, poison potions are used a lot less than Greater Heal/Cure/Refresh. They are also more difficult to make and use more resources. So it is a much more stable indicator to track Greater Healing Potions.

There are many examples that can be extrapolated. Phoenix armor originally cost 100,000 gold pieces in the clean up britannia ticket system. Early on they cost about 500,000 gold pieces as a rare item. A couple years later they were 1 million, then 2 million. Then 5 million. A couple weeks ago there was a bid of 400 million for a complete suit, which averages 66 million a piece. Some of this increase can be attributed to demand and a possible slightly decreasing supply. But to go from 2 million to 66 million, there is a lot of inflation in there.
Potions are used in gardening immensly. As seed of renewal is still a viable resell so that has to be taken in to effect. As well as kegs used for this purpose.

The phoenix armor is a in a rare category. As it is not able to be made price will always go up unless the rare is ruined. Putting inflation on a rare is not truly possible as price varies for rare collecting community. If inflation was a true problem then there should be no reason doom artifacts had a decrease of 50 mil since aos. Or that ingots have a decrease in price or that most all items have a decrease in price yet gold continue to come in the system.

This is all because game mechanics have made inflation of gold but deflation of items. Just like what we are facing in US today deflation of the housing/item market but inflation of the commodity market thanks to the fed continue of pretty much duping money into the system.
 

JC the Builder

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The phoenix armor is a in a rare category. As it is not able to be made price will always go up unless the rare is ruined. Putting inflation on a rare is not truly possible as price varies for rare collecting community. If inflation was a true problem then there should be no reason doom artifacts had a decrease of 50 mil since aos. Or that ingots have a decrease in price or that most all items have a decrease in price yet gold continue to come in the system.
I used Phoenix Armor as an example because it is a rare the developers introduced specifically as a rare and it is highly unlikely they will ever ruin it. Gold inflation is much easier to see in the rares market because there are duplicates of the exact same item and it is very easy to track over time the prices of the items.

Doom artifacts don't increase in price because they keep spawning. Even the Ruined Painting has spawned approximately 500 times since they were introduced.

Ingots don't increase in price because you can purchase them as cheaply as 2 gold a piece from NPC vendors.
 

Derium of ls

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There is a potential problem with gambling.
If the virtual currency has a real world value, as gold does as a result of the "grey market" of gold-selling, then the in-game gambling could be seen to run afoul of real-world gambling laws.
I think it was Sony that ran into troubles over that, some years back
There are plenty of MMOs that have gambling in it. when the FBI entered Secondlife the reason they were not allowed to have non-games of skill was because LL assigns a value to their currency in game.

Seeing that EA doesn't assign a value it's fine to do.

EVE online pretty much assigns a value to ISK (but doesn't allow it to be sold) and they have a TON of gambling in the game.
 

Derium of ls

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While the Magincia lotto is gambling, it's finite, it will only be in game for a very short period. I know someone who went to play where there was regular poker in game. He ended up farming monsters to get gold to play. Totally hooked.

I don't know what the answer to the economy is, but I sincerely hope permanent in game gambling isn't it.

What's wrong with being hooked on it? If you spend all day farming monsters to gamble compared to spending all day farming monsters for loot... there is ZERO difference. you're playing the game to do what you want to do.

but can you explain why you do not want to see gambling? And how would it effect you in a negative way?
 

Derium of ls

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Second Life - Linden Labs defines a real-world value for their in-game currency, to the point where you can officially cash out in-game currency for real money. It's caused problems for them with in-game gambling and has raised issues in regards to whether they should be treated like some kind of bank since they are offering currency exchanges. There have even been third-party "banks" in-game that had over a half a million dollars in real-world value.

They officially banned in-game gambling a few years back because of the new internet gambling regulations being passed by the US and others, and it caused a lot of problems for them.

I think EA officially bans the sale of virtual items in its games, as do many others, to keep from getting into that mess (well that and many other reasons). Whether they turn a blind eye is another story, but they don't sanction the sale of virtual items and don't assign values to in-game gold. Linden Labs on the other hand, has an official system to allow you to move real world money into in-game currency and then back to real-world money.

people often misquote this a lot. there did not ban gambling. They banned games of "chance" (albeit who the Hell can say blackjack and poker are games of chance?! the FBI is showing how ******** they are once again).

So gambling is allowed according to the FBI, as long as it's games of skill.

Example instead of normal slot machines they now have bump slots.
 
M

Macrophage999

Guest
I used Phoenix Armor as an example because it is a rare the developers introduced specifically as a rare and it is highly unlikely they will ever ruin it. Gold inflation is much easier to see in the rares market because there are duplicates of the exact same item and it is very easy to track over time the prices of the items.

Doom artifacts don't increase in price because they keep spawning. Even the Ruined Painting has spawned approximately 500 times since they were introduced.

Ingots don't increase in price because you can purchase them as cheaply as 2 gold a piece from NPC vendors.
For the standard player those drops in prices on the spawning items will be effective deflation. I also see some non spawning items such as grimoire decrease in price. Only the "niche" of the true rare market has the prices increasing. For a standard player it s more easy to acquire things than it used to be. It's still not alike the pre pub 16 era when it was very easy for everyone to enjoy the game but it's still better. The true rare niche is ought to concern very few players no matter what. And remember whatever gold sink you put in, the rare traders usually don't take part in the system. (Pure traders never lose gold).
 

JC the Builder

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For the standard player those drops in prices on the spawning items will be effective deflation.
Deflation has nothing to do with it. It is increasing supply. Deflation is when your currency becomes worth more. Inflation is when it becomes worth less.

I also see some non spawning items such as grimoire decrease in price. Only the "niche" of the true rare market has the prices increasing.
The Oassian Grimoire Necromancy Spellbook has been available for free through an unlimited amount of heritage tokens. They are readily available and can be purchased in the UO Gamecode Store.

To track inflation you need data on items which have a set amount. Rare items in UO are about the only ones available for this purpose. Stuff like potions and artifacts continue to spawn and their price fluctuates wildly due to desirability. Rare items today cost many times what they used to even though the supply and demand has remained relatively the same.
 

Nexus

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Deflation has nothing to do with it. It is increasing supply. Deflation is when your currency becomes worth more. Inflation is when it becomes worth less.
It absolutely is Deflation, your definition of inflation and deflation are almost correct, but, it's your application of those definition that that is the issue here.

When supply increases, and prices come down it increases the purchasing power of gold. You can buy the same amount or individual item with less gold, making golds buying power more. Inflation and Deflation are only defined by the shift in prices of commodities over time. The value of currency is defined by it's purchasing power, the two are linked but are not the same thing. Anything that decreases prices of a given commodity is by definition deflation, as long as the relative purchasing power of a currency increases as a result in that reduction in price.


Ok, if something happened and Ornament of the Magician suddenly dropped to an average price of 8 million vs 12-15. That would increase the purchasing power of gold. You'd have your Orny, and 4-7 million left to spend else where. That's the result of the price of Ornies deflating, gold gains more purchasing power.

Now if you removed gold from the game and prices dropped proportionally it's not deflation because gold would have gained nothing in buying power. So if they took 50% of the gold out of the game, and Ornies dropped to 6-7.5 million, it wouldn't be deflation, because the nominal value of gold hasn't changed.

That's why I keep saying that the only way to deflate the bloated economy is on the supply side, Deflation and Inflation are strictly definitions of change in price on commodities over time. It is this shift that effects the purchasing power of gold in the game, and in real life, in order to strengthen the economy they have to make gold worth more, the only way to do this is Deflate the economy, which has to happen on the supply side because Deflation is defined by the Decrease in prices of goods only.
 

Lord Frodo

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Dear EA/UO

I pay a monthly fee to play UO and I have read all these posts in this thread.

#1 UOStratics does not speak for all of the UO player and if you want to continue with this than you need to find a way to open this discussion to all UO players.

#2 If you chose to wipe my UO money (gold) than I will return the favor by wiping my billing information on all my accounts.

#3 If you wish to make me pay more (IE taxes on gold, houses or anything else) then I will have to reassess how much I am willing to pay to play and may have to cancel accounts to offset this incurred cost to play UO.

#4 If you want me to spend the gold I have made in UO then you need to give me something to spend it on. There have been some good and not so good ideas on gold sinks in this thread. That is what this thread should be about, ways to spend our gold not ways to just take it away. You already sell things on NPC that I can also go and get just playing UO (IE ingots, wood, cloth and regs to name a few). Expand on this to anything you can get playing UO you can also buy from NPCs at a cost of in game gold. Give us some good things to spend our gold on and we will.
 
L

LoL/Sonoma

Guest
#1 UOStratics does not speak for all of the UO player and if you want to continue with this than you need to find a way to open this discussion to all UO players.
/signed

We are a small, VERY vocal minority.
 

Draxous

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Dear EA/UO

I pay a monthly fee to play UO and I have read all these posts in this thread.

#1 UOStratics does not speak for all of the UO player and if you want to continue with this than you need to find a way to open this discussion to all UO players.

#2 If you chose to wipe my UO money (gold) than I will return the favor by wiping my billing information on all my accounts.

#3 If you wish to make me pay more (IE taxes on gold, houses or anything else) then I will have to reassess how much I am willing to pay to play and may have to cancel accounts to offset this incurred cost to play UO.

#4 If you want me to spend the gold I have made in UO then you need to give me something to spend it on. There have been some good and not so good ideas on gold sinks in this thread. That is what this thread should be about, ways to spend our gold not ways to just take it away. You already sell things on NPC that I can also go and get just playing UO (IE ingots, wood, cloth and regs to name a few). Expand on this to anything you can get playing UO you can also buy from NPCs at a cost of in game gold. Give us some good things to spend our gold on and we will.
There isn't a gold sink in the world to solve the problem. If they make the item/thing that desirable - that essential, then they disenfranchise a lot of players. If they make it something that's nice to have, but *meh* then people won't bother enough to make an impact.


I'd say that the Devs would be well served to implement an econ overhaul without warning.

This really resets earning potential, not overall wealth. Sounds like you're scared of that?
 

HD2300

Certifiable
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...
That's why I keep saying that the only way to deflate the bloated economy is on the supply side, ...
Ban Scripters => Better economy

So EA and Cal should do what they said was a top priority last year and ban all cheaters and scripters in their Excel spreadsheet. Think of all the gold that would be deleted, and all the gold farming that would be stopped.
 

Zosimus

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I'll expand on some more ideas that I had on my other post in this thread. My original post was about new items bought by NPC's. If any missed it go find my post in this thread. In the HoC, if I remember correctly they mentioned about bringing new life to the old dungeons. So here are some more ideas.


1) The devs have already implemented ways to gather artifacts in the legacy dungeons. Some are good artifacts other are not so good. The devs should pick a couple of dungeons and charge gold to enter. Add new usefull minor/major artifacts in these dungeons. Make the monsters in these dungeons have no loot, no gold, and cant be resourced( hides or meat) but beef them up a little buit so they just cant be farmed easily either. A player can gain points like the Tokuno event but make it much higher. If the player dies in the dungeon then they are auto teleported out of that dungeon and can be rezzed at the front. The player then has to repay gold to re-enter the dungeon. If the dungeon is in tram make the points value as 1-3 points per kill, where in Fel the dungeon is worth double the points per kill. Each level in the dungeon has chances to get different artifacts. So in Level 1 you can gain say 3 different types of artifacts. Level 2 you can get 3 different type of artifacts then you could in Level 1. This continues to you get to the final level of that dungeon. New dyes/deco could also be a reward also.


2) Once players really achieve what they need in the game they really don't have much to hunt for. Artifacts should be like a revolving door. The devs could add new artifacts every 4-6 months and take away the old artifacts in these dungeons. In reality once you basically get your character suit the way a player once it they dont really hunt as much for old artifacts unless new ones come out. So if they charged 20k ( this is just a random number being used) to enter a pay gold dungeon to gain a chance to get new artifacts.


3) To add some spice to this at least on the hardest and lowest level of the dungeon there should be a very rare chance to get a major artifact. This is a crazy example but lets say its a Luck Robe that has 400 luck, 5% LMC, 1% LRC.


4) Make the artifacts not repairable so eventually they can be broken but have the durabilty at 255. This will keep players coming back to these dungeons to get new artifacts with a small gold sink.
 

Lord Frodo

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There isn't a gold sink in the world to solve the problem. If they make the item/thing that desirable - that essential, then they disenfranchise a lot of players. If they make it something that's nice to have, but *meh* then people won't bother enough to make an impact.


I'd say that the Devs would be well served to implement an econ overhaul without warning.

This really resets earning potential, not overall wealth. Sounds like you're scared of that?
I am not scared one bit. Wiping gold would be like wiping shards. I just love all these posts on ways to fix things are to wipe them out and start over. You want to make people mad then just go ahead and wipe it all out and lets see how long UO will be around. I will just show EA/UO what I think about all these stupid ideas by wiping out my billing info. Wiping items is no solution, in fact it is one if not the stupidest idea I have heard of.

And I did not say one thing, I said everything that can be farmed in UO should also be sold on NPCs. If you want ot farm it then go farm it, if you don't then buy it from an NPC.
 

Dermott of LS

UOEC Modder
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
...

While I have my own sets of ideas (both in terms of economy and in terms of gameplay) that would work best via a newly wiped shard, I think it is FAAAR too risky of a move to actually do as there is absolutely NO guarantee that "a fixed economy" will do anything really to bring people into or back into UO.

The ONLY way UO's economy is going to be fixed (assuming of course it IS broken in reality, not just by the perception that big numbers = broken), it is by multiple methods of actually REMOVING gold from the game (simply giving players new stuff to sell between each other is NOT sinking gold) that are introduced over time and allowed to work.

Sure people may "farm up the gold" for the new shinys, but that's not the issue nor even the point of the goal. The goal shouldn't be to care how someone obtains the gold (legally), but that the gold is actually LEAVING THE SYSTEM.

Insurance is the constant one, some skills as well, the Magincia raffle is a BIG one-time system (unless there is a way to push plots that go IDOC back into a lotto drawing for new placement), the Britannian boat WAS one until they made is a cash option.

If you're looking at high end luxury deco items then don't use the argument that "newer players can't afford them" because they're not supposed to. They're not aimed at the low end player. However,to help along the way, different NPC-purchased consumables could also be added at reasonable prices based on the desired "level" of the item.

Point being that a total or partial wipe doesn't solve the problem and in fact will create many more on top of the existing problems, same with "new currency vs old". It's going to take a gradual and optional system in which the entire PURPOSE of the system is to not care about how the gold is introduced, but that the gold is successfully removed.
 
K

Kaladin

Guest
What you do... is you have a auction for "ultra rare" items from the past or totally new items which will only appear in limited quantities. Every X amount of time you have a different auction.

You put these item (s) on pedestals on the 2nd floor of the luna bank. You let people bid on the item for a period of time.

This is what it could look like:
Auction 1: Special Empty Jar which no longer spawns.

Auction 2: Totally new decoration which no one has ever seen and will never see again.

Auction 3: A one of a kind weapon which will also never be seen again.

Auction 4: A special unique mount. Possibly gives you a slim chance to not get dismounted or maybe not if that's OP.

Instant gold sponge. An auction almost like the Magincia system is now. If people want to go to other shards to spend their gold, then the system only soaks up more gold and the game gets money from the server transfers.
 

Lorax_Pacific

Lore Master
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Stratics Legend
There is a lot of confusion about the generation of gold and some people think when items are sold in Luna that some surprisingly more gold just was added into the economy. The fact is the gold was there prior to the purchase off players. Inflation is neither because of how much is transacted nor for what price. Artifact prices or power scroll prices have nothing to do with the inflation. Selling things on a player vendor is an exchange of gold for an item and the overall amount of gold remains constant in the system. Getting imbuing ingredients in the abyss and selling them to players has nothing to do with how much gold enters the economy either.

The generation of the gold and how it enters Sosaria can cause the inflation. This happens in few ways
1. Sell items to NPC's. This includes buying low from one town or facet and selling higher in another. Make an item out of resources and sell to NPC's is included.
2. Loot a monster
3. Champ spawn drop of gold
4. Duping if it can occur anymore I have no knowledge regarding the possibility
5. Escorting NPC's
6. BOD's gold reward
7. Whatever way someone else may realize that I don't remember (anyone?)

The only way developers can control inflation is to modify and constrain the amount that enters or leaves. From control theory we know that if something isn't observable then it is not controllable.

To fix any problem if there is one in fact (I'm not so sure) the developers would have to create monitors at the entrance and exit points of the gold. Once the system is observable developers would put bottlenecks on that location if the rate of flow into the system exceeds a threshold. To decrease the amount of gold already in the system of course you need to remove it by buying from NPC's and not players and of course this needs to be monitored to create a bottleneck if necessary. If you tie the gold monitors entering and exiting into a control loop then you can create an equation for that and it can be controlled as a dynamical system.

Anyway, like I said I'm not certain it needs to be fixed because one thing I like is to feel rich. Saying I have 1 million to buy something feels good and really says I put a lot of work into something.

Have fun my friends,

-Lorax
 
U

UOKaiser

Guest
Ban Scripters => Better economy

So EA and Cal should do what they said was a top priority last year and ban all cheaters and scripters in their Excel spreadsheet. Think of all the gold that would be deleted, and all the gold farming that would be stopped.
gold farming is one of the points of pvm and killing a monster over and over for 13 years. Sadly there is no point to it no more for any player other than the younger players. Why bother generating new gold from the system which would take forever to generate 10mil from when anybody can easily buy something and resell at higher price so that gold gets redistrubuted amoung the free market of players. Just made 80 mil today of 15 minutes work. I know seige works differently but seige is a different world seperated from us in production. Though when I do visit seige once in a while I make good gold for that shard as well just got to chop of some 0's still it would be the same equivilent if i did it in production. Just market is different there.
 

chester rockwell

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
...
That's why I keep saying that the only way to deflate the bloated economy is on the supply side, ...
Ban Scripters => Better economy

So EA and Cal should do what they said was a top priority last year and ban all cheaters and scripters in their Excel spreadsheet. Think of all the gold that would be deleted, and all the gold farming that would be stopped.
This makes 100% sense. Not only will it work, the RULES are already in the book. You are just enforcing whats there. Instead pulling a "u.s. guvmint" move and making more rules/regulations, enforce this one.

I guess you could go the other way and make it legal to script. Then new people would have the same advantage as the effers that are scripters do.
 

Derium of ls

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What you do... is you have a auction for "ultra rare" items from the past or totally new items which will only appear in limited quantities. Every X amount of time you have a different auction.

You put these item (s) on pedestals on the 2nd floor of the luna bank. You let people bid on the item for a period of time.

This is what it could look like:
Auction 1: Special Empty Jar which no longer spawns.

Auction 2: Totally new decoration which no one has ever seen and will never see again.

Auction 3: A one of a kind weapon which will also never be seen again.

Auction 4: A special unique mount. Possibly gives you a slim chance to not get dismounted or maybe not if that's OP.

Instant gold sponge. An auction almost like the Magincia system is now. If people want to go to other shards to spend their gold, then the system only soaks up more gold and the game gets money from the server transfers.

about 8 years ago Vampire of Baja made a massive push for something like this. It gained A LOT of supporters... but EA said they didn't like it =(
 

Gheed

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What you do... is you have a auction for "ultra rare" items from the past or totally new items which will only appear in limited quantities. Every X amount of time you have a different auction.

You put these item (s) on pedestals on the 2nd floor of the luna bank. You let people bid on the item for a period of time.

This is what it could look like:
Auction 1: Special Empty Jar which no longer spawns.

Auction 2: Totally new decoration which no one has ever seen and will never see again.

Auction 3: A one of a kind weapon which will also never be seen again.

Auction 4: A special unique mount. Possibly gives you a slim chance to not get dismounted or maybe not if that's OP.

Instant gold sponge. An auction almost like the Magincia system is now. If people want to go to other shards to spend their gold, then the system only soaks up more gold and the game gets money from the server transfers.

about 8 years ago Vampire of Baja made a massive push for something like this. It gained A LOT of supporters... but EA said they didn't like it =(
I don’t care much for this idea either. This would require the oversight of Mesanna to track what I would only assume is a monumental listing of rare and event items in order to guarantee no toes were stepped on for existing rare items . She would probably delegate her EMs to help out, and I’m not so sure they signed up solely to hand out items to the wealthy. In short I don’t like the idea of pimping her and her crew out as a gold sink.

Also it’s just too small of a gold sink. As for the economy, many are at the “end-as-we-know it” game. For those folks, throwing around a few hundred mill here and there isn’t going to phase them. Devs could consider re-designing “end game” economics with a few big carrots for the folks who are sitting on piles of gold. They are waiting for an excuse to spend it. Let’s give them one:

What comes to mind right off is something (a few) folks have been wanting for a very very long time, customizable Keep and Castle plots. Devs don’t want to touch it because (this is from memory here so I’m not certain) it is a coding nightmare to automate a placement system given that the courtyard footprint ignores static objects (rocks, trees and the like). Also I’d think there isn’t enough demand for this to merit dev time spent on a “free” client patch place a large plot like this. And there wouldn’t be enough interest to cover coding costs by selling it on gamecodes.

However, the idea does fit more into a personal category. If the lay of the land blocks placement of a customizable castle sized plot where a normal castle would fit, then all you have to do is alter the land and place. If the devs have the power to alter landscapes, then the only thing up for debate is the price. Imagine a customizable keep plot for 10 billion and castle plot for 20 billion, plus you have to have a placed castle/keep plot to hand over to the devs to mark your spot. Then they could adjust the landscape on a case by case basis, place the plot and transfer it to the original owner much like the abyss plots were handed out. It would be enough gold to keep the devs from being flooded with requests. And I think there would be enough interest to sell a few and slurp a big chunk of gold out of the game. The numbers are a wild guess on my part, but you get the idea.

My idea revolves around a lot of unknowns on my part. I am only guessing at some of the conditions. But overall, it would place a very lofty goal out there that pretty much anyone could work toward if they had the desire. If it were as simple as spending a few hours coding the plot size and an hour or so per plot to adjust the land to place, would that be worth removing, $3300-$6600 rl cost (at.30 per mil)worth of gold from the game for each plot? And how many folks would be interested in trying to get one?
 

Nexus

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That's why I keep saying that the only way to deflate the bloated economy is on the supply side, ...
Ban Scripters => Better economy

So EA and Cal should do what they said was a top priority last year and ban all cheaters and scripters in their Excel spreadsheet. Think of all the gold that would be deleted, and all the gold farming that would be stopped.
This makes 100% sense. Not only will it work, the RULES are already in the book. You are just enforcing whats there. Instead pulling a "u.s. guvmint" move and making more rules/regulations, enforce this one.

I guess you could go the other way and make it legal to script. Then new people would have the same advantage as the effers that are scripters do.
With the changes they've made in the past few years to combat bots, such as randomizing ore and wood spawns, as much as I hate to think it, I worry that scripting is actually having a positive effect on the economy of the game at this point. It's also part of why I argue supply side changes for things.

On Chessy Val ingots are averaging 1k per ingot, if scripts were removed from the equation, eventually peoples pre-randomization stocks would vanish and prices would skyrocket.

The Community collections are another example. Would you want to spend 12 mil or months turning in items for a pair of Reading Glasses? I regularly see Mace and Shield glasses in the 9-10 mil range....

I'm not condoning what scripters are doing, I'm just pointing out that unfortunately they are one of the things keeping the economy from being worse.

If they take a hard line on scripting, and other forms of cheating, along with Cash for Pixel sales they will have to at the same time re-evaluate much of what has been put into the game to combat cheating in the past.
 
K

Kaladin

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This would require the oversight of Mesanna to track what I would only assume is a monumental listing of rare and event items in order to guarantee no toes were stepped on for existing rare items . She would probably delegate her EMs to help out, and I’m not so sure they signed up solely to hand out items to the wealthy. In short I don’t like the idea of pimping her and her crew out as a gold sink.
I guess I didn't make part of my point clear:

1) "ultra rare" items from the past (Emphasis on Past)

2) or totally new items which will only appear in limited quantities. Every X amount of time you have a different auction.

What you do is you have this pedestal and the item is on it. When a person wins an item a message similar to what you get for Magincia comes up and you get a claim deed. You go to an NPC near the items and claim your item kinda like you would do a BOD turn in.

There would be NO EM distributing items.
 
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