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The Big Economy Thread

W

Woodsman

Guest
Phoenix_Mythic, I would like to ask a simple question, but I know it's not that simple.

Given that other BioWare Mythic MMOs both have in-game mail and auction houses, has there ever been a serious discussion with UO in that regards? I guess in-game mail and auction houses go hand-in-hand since you need the in-game mail to handle auction sales, but there are other tangible benefits to in-game mail as far as helping players contact each other and staying in touch.

An auction house could function as a gold sink as well, as it does in other MMOs - a listing fee plus a final fee based on the sale price. If it was restricted to 24 hour, 48 hour, and 7 day auctions, it could be a fairly active gold sink, although I think Warhammer dropped their auctions to 48 hours. 48 hours would make for a very active gold sink.

I know that you said on the Test Center that a vendor search had been discussed, but I would think that would be more complicated and heavier on the server resources than an auction house.
 
L

Longforge

Guest
Why not take the item status away from gold? Make it a number you carry with you till deposited. Put weight on it or not, up to you guys. Seems like that would cut down on the amount of space it takes up. Once deposited in a bank it becomes a number in the bank and not an item you can move around. Would free up alot of space.
That just makes it easier to stockpile gold! :)

Theoretically, it is sound, but would probably make things worse.
 
L

Longforge

Guest
Re: On Reagents

Reagents are an interesting subject. Here's a question:

BUT FIRST, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. This is not an idea that we are considering implementing.

Suppose there were a magic blessed bag that could hold up to 100 stone of reagents and scrolls, but in order for it to work you would have to feed it gold on an hourly basis -- otherwise it loses its blessing. How much gold would you be willing to feed it, and how did you arrive at that number?

AGAIN, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. My purpose in posing that question is to elicit some responses specifically about the value of reagents, and LRC, and scrolls.
I think it is an idea that you should DEFINATELY implement. It is logically sound on every level. It would solve one issue of a backward-eco effect that LRC has had on the economy. It's a great start at the very least.

The advent of imbuing made it the easiest to make LRC far overpowered.

However, full suited sets like the Sorcerers Garb should be left alone, as wearing that suit doesn't give any kind of advantage in PVP.

Feeding the bag gold is a double whammy to the requirement of having regs which would be a healthy expendature. You could make it a gem based or "crystal based" recharge system with a counter.

The expense of regs alone would be a great move forward in moving more gold to NPCS and out of the economy!!!

Great idea... I love it.
 
W

Wojoe

Guest
Re: On Reagents

I think it is an idea that you should DEFINATELY implement. It is logically sound on every level. It would solve one issue of a backward-eco effect that LRC has had on the economy. It's a great start at the very least.

The advent of imbuing made it the easiest to make LRC far overpowered.

However, full suited sets like the Sorcerers Garb should be left alone, as wearing that suit doesn't give any kind of advantage in PVP.

Feeding the bag gold is a double whammy to the requirement of having regs which would be a healthy expendature. You could make it a gem based or "crystal based" recharge system with a counter.

The expense of regs alone would be a great move forward in moving more gold to NPCS and out of the economy!!!

Great idea... I love it.
It’s a terrible idea...This would put the burden on spell casters only and weapon users would not be affected unless you tax special moves to...
 

Lady Michelle

Sprite Full SP
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Gold sinks should be where you may get something that you cant get anywhere else in the game. Turn in gold only for points that you can save up to collect things that you could use for pvp, hunting, decorating, statues, clothing etc.

With spring cleaning coming soon why not this year have where you can also turn in gold for tickets 500 gp gets you a 50 pt ticket, 1,000 gold will get you a 100 pt ticket.
 
K

Kaladin

Guest
Idea for a Gold Sink:

Main Idea: Let people have the ability to sell their home design for a price they choose. Then, take a fee from the purchase price of a certain percent.

In the housing menu there's a way to back up the design. Just give people the ability to save the design to a list. People can look at the list and purchase designs to try out. A thumb nail version of the design would be shown, or coordinates to the house, or maybe you could even see a shadow version of the home.

That way, you'll have a place in UO which looks a lot nicer as well as having a continual gold sink.
 

Madrid

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Re: On Reagents

Reagents are an interesting subject. Here's a question:

BUT FIRST, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. This is not an idea that we are considering implementing.

Suppose there were a magic blessed bag that could hold up to 100 stone of reagents and scrolls, but in order for it to work you would have to feed it gold on an hourly basis -- otherwise it loses its blessing. How much gold would you be willing to feed it, and how did you arrive at that number?

AGAIN, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. My purpose in posing that question is to elicit some responses specifically about the value of reagents, and LRC, and scrolls.
I think it's great you come here and interact with the community. We really need more of that so...we really do. So I want to commend and thank you for that before I offer you a sandwich.

I don't mean to sound like a total jerk however I find it extremely frustrating as a player to see a current member of the team wanting to an discuss issue that is so low on the totem poll.

Surely your time, energy and resources should be spent on things that are more pressing to the game: EC Client for starters, high resolution graphics, fixing of Bugs, and ways to make the new player experience more enjoyable. Boat Building, Detective Quests, Finishing the Virtue Systems are all things that are more deserving of your attention. I'm sure other players could add to the list of things more pressing.

The UO Economy is functioning fine despite prior dupes and the TC Debacle.

Please go work on something that actually needs attention and will help the make this great game better.:wall:
 
K

Kaladin

Guest
Re: On Reagents

I think it's great you come here and interact with the community....
I don't mean to sound like a total jerk however I find it extremely frustrating as a player to see a current member of the team wanting to an discuss issue that is so low on the totem poll.
I think it's great that you come into this thread to spread your ideas of what the game should be. Maybe you could spell out what you want as your top priority.

I have to disagree with you.

When gaining gold from killing monsters isn't an incentive anymore because I would rather trade in items, that's a problem.

When some people don't have enough storage for all their 1 million gold checks, that's also a problem.

Gold inflation is a big issue. It's been a top issue for years.
 

Madrid

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Re: On Reagents

I think it's great that you come into this thread to spread your ideas of what the game should be. Maybe you could spell out what you want as your top priority.
Hi resolution graphics! The EC client was a huge step backwards compared to KR from a visual perspective. Without some improvement in graphics this game is not going to bring in new players. Kids growing up today aren't going to look twice at this game. Their friends swill laugh at them for playing a game with graphics from circa 1992. New customers are absolutely vital to keeping any business solvent. UO needs forward progress in this area...badly.

What we had 2 years ago is better than what we have now. :stretcher:


When gaining gold from killing monsters isn't an incentive anymore because I would rather trade in items, that's a problem.
How is that a problem? Tell me a game a major MMO where items are not farmed? Spawners regularly leave 250k gold at Champion Spawns because their too lazy to pick it up and don't feel it's worth their time. I don't see how this creates a problem. It is what it is...

An item is only worth what someone will pay for it. Players will balance out the economy. How many times have we seen items start out high and a year later they're selling for 20% of what they did when they first hit the market. The players/market over time decide what the value is.

When some people don't have enough storage for all their 1 million gold checks, that's also a problem.
Most players who have issues with checks storage transfer their gold onto vendors. Being overloaded with bank checks and having limited storage because of bank checks is not an issue.

Gold inflation is a big issue. It's been a top issue for years.
I had at one time a billion gold. All is did was sit there for over a year and at that time it had absolutely zero value. Did the Britainnian banks pay me interest on my billion gold? Hell no....

So I said to hell with it and blew my 1B gold making someone else rich for a day or two. Gold in this game just changes hands and to those that hoard it and just let it sit it really has no value.

I don't have one of everything in the game! I can't afford it. I don't have my Daemonic Crisis statuette that I really want and I consider myself pretty well off in the game. So I'm not seeing how there is a problem with too much gold when there are a bunch of items out there I don't have. I'm not economist but I'm just not seeing where there is a problem.


The second thing behind graphics is helping out the new players and getting them solid equipment to get started. "Does anyone know where I can get a full spellbook"?....today that hurts the game. It's not like the old days. Get new players some gold and start up items through simple quests like I eluded to earlier in this thread.

The current New Player Quest items are not items that can be used and they are for all intents and purposes just souvenirs. Create some decent items that are hovering in the 400-450 intensity range that can actually be used to make life easier for a new player as they learn what properties do what. How many times have we seen a new player walking around in armor pieces that are 2-3 points across the board and he doesn't understand why he gets killed so easily by monsters.

Helping new players and introducing high resolution graphics to attract new players should be top priority. The UO Economy is a not issue that needs to be addressed at this time and doesn't warrant the attention of Dev Team which already appears to be low on staff and resources.

That's my final 2 cents in this thread.;)
 
M

Macrophage999

Guest
Re: On Reagents

Hi resolution graphics! The EC client was a huge step backwards compared to KR from a visual perspective. Without some improvement in graphics this game is not going to bring in new players. Kids growing up today aren't going to look twice at this game. Their friends swill laugh at them for playing a game with graphics from circa 1992. New customers are absolutely vital to keeping any business solvent. UO needs forward progress in this area...badly.

What we had 2 years ago is better than what we have now. :stretcher:


How is that a problem? Tell me a game a major MMO where items are not farmed? Spawners regularly leave 250k gold at Champion Spawns because their too lazy to pick it up and don't feel it's worth their time. I don't see how this creates a problem. It is what it is...

An item is only worth what someone will pay for it. Players will balance out the economy. How many times have we seen items start out high and a year later they're selling for 20% of what they did when they first hit the market. The players/market over time decide what the value is.



Most players who have issues with checks storage transfer their gold onto vendors. Being overloaded with bank checks and having limited storage because of bank checks is not an issue.



I had at one time a billion gold. All is did was sit there for over a year and at that time it had absolutely zero value. Did the Britainnian banks pay me interest on my billion gold? Hell no....

So I said to hell with it and blew my 1B gold making someone else rich for a day or two. Gold in this game just changes hands and to those that hoard it and just let it sit it really has no value.

I don't have one of everything in the game! I can't afford it. I don't have my Daemonic Crisis statuette that I really want and I consider myself pretty well off in the game. So I'm not seeing how there is a problem with too much gold when there are a bunch of items out there I don't have. I'm not economist but I'm just not seeing where there is a problem.


The second thing behind graphics is helping out the new players and getting them solid equipment to get started. "Does anyone know where I can get a full spellbook"?....today that hurts the game. It's not like the old days. Get new players some gold and start up items through simple quests like I eluded to earlier in this thread.

The current New Player Quest items are not items that can be used and they are for all intents and purposes just souvenirs. Create some decent items that are hovering in the 400-450 intensity range that can actually be used to make life easier for a new player as they learn what properties do what. How many times have we seen a new player walking around in armor pieces that are 2-3 points across the board and he doesn't understand why he gets killed so easily by monsters.

Helping new players and introducing high resolution graphics to attract new players should be top priority. The UO Economy is a not issue that needs to be addressed at this time and doesn't warrant the attention of Dev Team which already appears to be low on staff and resources.

That's my final 2 cents in this thread.;)
+1 But we both play Europa and here prices are deflating rather than inflating.
 

Theo_GL

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Re: On Reagents

I probably wouldn't be interested honestly for several reasons.

A) The Hourly basis would quickly outweigh the value of the regs I'm carrying for this to be effective meanings of creating a gold sink I'm losing more gold keeping a blessed bag than I would if I just lose a 100 or so regs.

B)We'd be going back to a day and time where Reagents on vendors were scarce or if they auto-restocked the price would go up so extreme it would simply punish new players.
Screwing with LRC is a bad idea. Carrying regs around is a nuisance.

If you want to get rid of LRC - forget coding special bags etc - just go to a point system like tithing points for Chiv. I'd have no problem with that. Let me dump 100k points and not worry about it for 3 months.
 

AtlanticVlad

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
This was certainly an interesting read. Admittedly I only read about 3/4th of it skimming most of the quoted bits looking for new ideas.

I would like to go over this the way I see it.

First off UO is 13+ years old now... that means we have gold from 13 years ago piled up with gold form last night. Yes some gold leaves the system occasionally but I would wager a guess that up until recently with the brit ship and now mag that amount was rather low.

I saw some very interesting ideas in here and some that just aren't practical today. Sure I would love to never have gotten LRC and all the other things that came with what I like to call the Diablo II patch. But we have these things and we can't just make them go away.

The best things I saw as far as gold sink ideas were these.

Rent NPC type buildings in cites... NOT BUY RENT via timed contracts if you don't log in to renew it you lose it... and all the deco becomes the next persons property and any vendors you have there would go in something like the Shard X-fer crate. I love what this could do for repopulating the old cities... And I can think of a few buildings I've always wanted to live in...

Admittedly this probably is a very impractical solution as I don't expect it would be easy to code...

I personally would love to have charity titles but I think what ever the gold got donated to should have an effect. The Cities donation idea with price drops was nice. Or the Dungeons overall luck or drop rates raising for a time period was also nice... specially If it effected everyone.

I could also just see a competition donation for titles... between the servers an X-Shardable title of course saying where your form and what the total was for the period of time of the donations.

We all like to be special and unique titles or something like that could be fun.

I also gotta say I disapprove of the faction artifact vending machine... I think that kinda broke the value of a lot of rare things... but where I was going with this is that perhaps a turn in or valuable items... things like Crimmys and Tangles and stuff... I've no idea what the reward would be but a title that said I destroyed X number of ____ could be fun. And with people buying these items and then dumping them for the titles we could get rid of a ton of gold... and High value items...

I recently made the move to Siege my self and I love the economy there prices seem reasonable... I can easily earn the 200k for a suit that's probably better then the suit on my 13 year old production shard character that I haven't bothered updating because of insurance...

I realize it wont go away but I think we all know X-sharding killed us... Not because of prices but I believe most people realize a great deal of duping came from there at one point and probably still from time to time just on flukes...

As for other gold sink ideas I would love more brit ship type ideas... Personally I would pay well for an option to have a banker in my home even if only to write and cash checks... I always wanted to run my own casino where people could gamble with each other and the house would only take a % of the dealings... But I've never been able to deal with the gold part of it... =( I'm sure that would open other business ideas....

I can't say that the Global vendor search is a bad idea for leveling the playing field but at the same time it takes out a huge aspect of monetary systems... Real Estate... you pay for prime real estate for a reason...

My real question for you Dev types is why don't we have a In Client Poll system so the entire playing population gets to help make these decisions? Give each account the option of voting pre shard selection once per account on recent questions... before you implement new things... only allow people who paid for at least 2 consecutive months to vote. The way I see it if someone has 14 accounts they deserve more say in what happens then someone who only has one. They are paying you 14 times more... for the service. Its completely fair... I'm not saying you have to listen but it would make us all feel far more involved. And give the people who don't use these forms a say. Allow them to change there minds until the poll close too so if in discussion with other players they decide they made the warning choice they can fix it...

Meh I should sleep lol
 

Mongbat137

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
How to Fix the UO Economy. No really.

1) Go ahead and turn gold into nonphysical currency stored on the character at all times, like the money in other games.

2) Divide by 2. At least.

That's it. The economy is so blown-out at this point that you can either go large or just stay home. Okay everyone will probably riot if you take away half their money, not understanding that value is relative and that you just made their remaining money twice as valuable. So here's what you do instead.

1) Create a new nonphysical currency separate from gold. Call it platinum or shillings or crowns or whatever you want.

2) Switch the entire NPC economy over to this new currency, including player-deployed vendors. Monsters quit dropping the old gold. Banks quit processing the old gold. Checks are no longer created. Checks and piles of gold are now basically rares.

3) Allow players to buy shillings (or whatever) from a banker NPC at a rate of one shilling per two gold, by dropping checks and gold coins on them.

If you nerf LRC there will be the mother of all riots. It's just not worth it, from your perspective. Maybe if you converted all reagents into a system like tithing points, but carrying around eight little piles of objects at all times is just too much of a pain for anyone to want to bother with anymore.

Your gold sinks should be cosmetic in nature.

Let us buy titles. I'm tired of just being Lord Mongbat. I want to be a Duke. Let me pay X gold and be Duke Mongbat for Y period of time. People have bought and sold titles in real life, so why not? Give it an RPful name. Peerages or bequeathements or whatever.

I dunno what else, I'll think.
 
W

Woodsman

Guest
Rent NPC type buildings in cites... NOT BUY RENT via timed contracts if you don't log in to renew it you lose it... and all the deco becomes the next persons property and any vendors you have there would go in something like the Shard X-fer crate. I love what this could do for repopulating the old cities... And I can think of a few buildings I've always wanted to live in...

Admittedly this probably is a very impractical solution as I don't expect it would be easy to code...
I like this as well - I don't normally favor instanced housing, but I've always thought it would be cool if we could live in the cities amongst existing buildings/NPCs.

The vendor thing though - we are sorta getting this with the vendor bazaar in New Magincia, if you look at the new CLILOC strings. Of course those vendors will go to the highest bidders. It's a shame that they aren't randomly assigned.

I can't say that the Global vendor search is a bad idea for leveling the playing field but at the same time it takes out a huge aspect of monetary systems... Real Estate... you pay for prime real estate for a reason...
That prime real estate is partly prime because of the illegal third party search sites who cover Luna and Zento.

I doubt the original designers ever planned for those players who have houses in Luna and Zento to benefit from third party search websites that rely on botting and scripting.

If there is going to be a search, I'd rather it be legally handled by UO in-game and covering everybody than illegal third party websites that are violating the game's TOS every single day. You don't want new players or returning vets coming back and wondering how they are supposed to compete with those who get indexed in the illegal third party search sites. It really takes you out of the sandbox.

It's very frustrating when you look back through Stratics' archives going back a few years and you see plenty of people asking why EA doesn't do something about those illegal websites. There are plenty of Stratics threads that explain how those illegal websites function and explain , but the gist of it is that EA could nail the mechanisms those websites are using.
 

Tina Small

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Re: On Reagents

I think it's great that you come into this thread to spread your ideas of what the game should be. Maybe you could spell out what you want as your top priority.
Hi resolution graphics! The EC client was a huge step backwards compared to KR from a visual perspective. Without some improvement in graphics this game is not going to bring in new players. Kids growing up today aren't going to look twice at this game. Their friends swill laugh at them for playing a game with graphics from circa 1992. New customers are absolutely vital to keeping any business solvent. UO needs forward progress in this area...badly.

What we had 2 years ago is better than what we have now. :stretcher:


When gaining gold from killing monsters isn't an incentive anymore because I would rather trade in items, that's a problem.
How is that a problem? Tell me a game a major MMO where items are not farmed? Spawners regularly leave 250k gold at Champion Spawns because their too lazy to pick it up and don't feel it's worth their time. I don't see how this creates a problem. It is what it is...

An item is only worth what someone will pay for it. Players will balance out the economy. How many times have we seen items start out high and a year later they're selling for 20% of what they did when they first hit the market. The players/market over time decide what the value is.

When some people don't have enough storage for all their 1 million gold checks, that's also a problem.
Most players who have issues with checks storage transfer their gold onto vendors. Being overloaded with bank checks and having limited storage because of bank checks is not an issue.

Gold inflation is a big issue. It's been a top issue for years.
I had at one time a billion gold. All is did was sit there for over a year and at that time it had absolutely zero value. Did the Britainnian banks pay me interest on my billion gold? Hell no....

So I said to hell with it and blew my 1B gold making someone else rich for a day or two. Gold in this game just changes hands and to those that hoard it and just let it sit it really has no value.

I don't have one of everything in the game! I can't afford it. I don't have my Daemonic Crisis statuette that I really want and I consider myself pretty well off in the game. So I'm not seeing how there is a problem with too much gold when there are a bunch of items out there I don't have. I'm not economist but I'm just not seeing where there is a problem.


The second thing behind graphics is helping out the new players and getting them solid equipment to get started. "Does anyone know where I can get a full spellbook"?....today that hurts the game. It's not like the old days. Get new players some gold and start up items through simple quests like I eluded to earlier in this thread.

The current New Player Quest items are not items that can be used and they are for all intents and purposes just souvenirs. Create some decent items that are hovering in the 400-450 intensity range that can actually be used to make life easier for a new player as they learn what properties do what. How many times have we seen a new player walking around in armor pieces that are 2-3 points across the board and he doesn't understand why he gets killed so easily by monsters.

Helping new players and introducing high resolution graphics to attract new players should be top priority. The UO Economy is a not issue that needs to be addressed at this time and doesn't warrant the attention of Dev Team which already appears to be low on staff and resources.

That's my final 2 cents in this thread.;)
I agree 100%, Madrid. Why are the devs even wasting time on this issue right now? Add some new deco-type gold sinks to the game and increase the size of checks by 10 or something and then focus on making the game more attractive for new and returning players. Doing something drastic like meddling with LRC is just going to make existing players mad and quit playing. If LRC is such a worry, do as Theo suggested and go to a points system like chivalry on all shards except Siege and Mugen.

For new gold sinks, I've been thinking along the lines of stuff you could perhaps rent at a steep price from an Interior Decorator NPC by the week or by the month with a contract that gives you the option to renew it automatically upon expiration. Maybe folks would go for renting things like new types of fountains; new artwork for walls and floors; various types of awnings and canopies (have seen some interesting striped ones on the Japanese shards); statues; grander or at least different styles of beds, benches, chairs, and tables; new styles of water troughs or cisterns; new fireplaces/hearths; new types of counters/bars; additional items that would look appropriate on a dock-type structure; standing suits of armour; mounted heads/trophies; mini house deeds in the shape of famous buildings throughout Sosaria; etc. Nothing that is a container though, because the item would just go poof once your rental contract expires or the house is traded or falls.

I'd even go so far as to say add in pet dyes that you can purchase from an NPC, as long as they fade in a week. (Shudders at the thought, but I'd live with it instead of seeing something vital to the game completely mucked up.) Also give body sculptor NPCs some new "stuff" to sell. Bring back the tattoos and other looks that you could get in the EC but charge for them, make them last only for a week or so, and make them available in both clients. Add more colors to the hair dyes you purchase from the hair stylist dudes, considerably raise their cost, and quit dropping the cheapo hair dye as monster loot.

Let tailors, blacksmiths, and carpenters sell new types of limited-charge dye packages for coloring armor, weapons, fishing poles, torches. The dye would wear off over time.

Add in some new quests to change to/from being a gargoyle and consider tacking on a 500k gp charge for all race change quests.

Consider having the personal attendants start charging a fee for their services. If not paid, they just revert to deeded form. Maybe this would also make the many lost ones roaming the lands finally disappear altogether. You could also figure out a new (and expensive) way to make these available to rent to players that missed whichever expansion brought them into the game.

Increase the cost of bartender-type NPCs, but only after they've all been to a training course or two to learn some new things to say and do.

With some imagination, I'm sure people could put together a whole laundry list of similar items that players would willingly and repeatedly purchase or rent as "luxury" items that don't affect how you PvP or PvM. Yes, all of this stuff is just more "pixel crack," but it would be available to all players regardless of how much time they actually have to play or what their play style is. If they have gold to burn, they could have it all. All this stuff would also not make a complete and utter wreck out of shards like Siege and Mugen. Hopefully it would just get gold out of the system on a regular basis.

Make a contest out of it and let people provide artwork if they want to. Make it a fun process to brainstorm more decorative-type gold sinks and maybe it could work to bring players together, instead of driving them apart or making them worry about the game's future being totally turned on its ear. Maybe you'd even succeed in drawing back a number of people who love to spend a lot of their game time building and decorating their house.
 

Nexus

Site Support
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Wiki Moderator
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This is the question, isn't it? It's actually a whopper. We're all trying to answer it here, and this thread has brought out an impressive number of long and detailed responses.

But when I read that line of your post, it occurred to me that finding the most succinct answer would serve everyone very well. So I spent a bit of time today thinking about it, trying to find the very essence of the issue at hand.

My answer is simply this: To fight entropy.

Been thinking on this a couple of days....

Refering to Entropy and Economics means you are thinking of Thermoeconomics, since Entropy is a Thermodynamic property.....

The concept of entropy is defined by the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the entropy of a closed system always increases or remains constant.

Here's the problem, you can't fight Entropy on a closed system. UO has a sorta weird type of closed system, there's a bypass [Transfers] but as a general rule, gold on a shard stays on a shard, and I'm sure this applies to the majority of players. What I've seen happening though is you can line shards up by population and pick a desirable item (that's not brand new) and find the average price on each of those shards and you'll see a trend, there will be a few exceptions but my observations have leaned towards....

Highest Population Shards will have a lower average cost of living (so to speak) than Mid-range population shards, and low population shards will be lower than either of the above.

On High population shards, so many people are obtaining items the prices are held in check slightly by free market rules, competition and supply and demand.

Mid Population shards don't have that supply for competition, but they have enough folks on it to create demand, leaning towards higher prices.

Low population shards supply has caught up to demand, Prices drop down due to over supply. Siege is a fine example of this, supply of Legendary Crafted armor and weaps which are what is in demand is plentiful enough to keep prices low and hold them there.


You guys aren't going to be able to fight "Entropy" in any way that fair to all players on a predominately closed system, but you can manipulate markets from your end by shifting supply a bit to satisfy demand. This is your most useful tool in fighting inflated prices, lock step the value of commodities to decrease as the buying power of gold does.
 
T

Trebr Drab

Guest
If you want to change the money system to take away the affects of inflation over the years, I'd suggest this. Story wise, "discover" that the gold in Sosaria has been counterfeited on a massive scale to destroy the Britannian economic system, to cause a collapse that might allow Britain's enemies to control the true wealth and power. These would be discovered to be mostly gold plated brass, and sometimes, very rarely, a true ancient gold coin is discovered (rare item). Issue a new coin, the Gold Sovereign, and change all NPCs into this new monetary system. Allow players to turn their existing gold coins into the Royal Treasurer, who inspects them, and gives them new Sovereigns for the "true" value of the stack (or check), a random value that's much less.

Gold on critters can still be the old gold, mostly counterfeit, and leave the Treasurer in game for exchanges. Some of the newer Sovereigns can be added to loot, or not. Over time, or not.

This would reduce the gold that's in UO and remove the inflation, while still leaving "the rich" rich comparatively. It would cause a revaluation of the economy and it's items, without the inflation. It would leave players where they are in the food chain, and not punish anyone. It would remove the affects of inflation, and allow players with less to afford more. It would increase the flow of business, which would increase the demand on materials and ingredients down the line.

This would help. But it does still leave the original problem in the game.
Phoenix, Cal, Messana, all of you, in my mind the best thing you could do for UO would be to get the financing and the ok to overhaul UO's entire system with this in mind. But I'm also sure that that expenditure would be a very hard sell. Especially right now.

And it's obvious from the replies here that most players don't really want change. They want some specific quick fixes, but not real change. That's another hard sell. I don't expect to see it happen. And that's really a shame.
Edit to add: But if you just did it anyways, they'd go willingly, kicking and screaming.
Crap, I keep forgetting every time I mention this, that all existing items in game would have to be flagged as "old" and when sold to NPC vendors they'd pay the old gold coin. Otherwise players would just stock up and sell after the conversion and be right back to the same thing.
 
L

Longforge

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Re: On Reagents

It’s a terrible idea...This would put the burden on spell casters only and weapon users would not be affected unless you tax special moves to...
Weapon users, with the exception of archers, don't have half of the power that mages do. IE: Range/Variety of choices to kill the target with.

Magery is ranged. An archer loses his arrows when he dies... why shouldnt a mage lose his ammo too?

Using a weapon requires being on top of your target. Casting doesnt.
 
U

UOKaiser

Guest
Re: On Reagents

Weapon users, with the exception of archers, don't have half of the power that mages do. IE: Range/Variety of choices to kill the target with.

Magery is ranged. An archer loses his arrows when he dies... why shouldnt a mage lose his ammo too?

Using a weapon requires being on top of your target. Casting doesnt.
Lets look at that in PVM point of view.Any monster still worth fighthing you can't get close to it without a sampire/wampire type template. Using a mage type template the dumping speed on any creature worth fighthing is too slow to usually keep up with its regeneration rate. This lrc and ammo situation is a issue that would only appease pvp and players stuck in the pre aos days. Thats it. This has no impact in the economy either bad or good it's just a hinderance.
 
U

UOKaiser

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Crap, I keep forgetting every time I mention this, that all existing items in game would have to be flagged as "old" and when sold to NPC vendors they'd pay the old gold coin. Otherwise players would just stock up and sell after the conversion and be right back to the same thing.
There is always unique rares/semi rares/tokens/cash value tems and real estate which is where we all keep our net worth as well.

Like I said there is not that many ways gold gets in the game. As long as there is not a weird rare gold dupe or that everyone in all shards transfer to 1 shard inflation is not a problem or issue. The markets have already adjusted long ago to the increase.
 

T-Hunt

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Lets see, the regen bag gold feed sounds greath, as for warriors maybe add a form of hit chance were you can feed gold also, so much for % chance that would save on imbuing a suit also or jewl.

What about insted spending 1 week making black powder and other items for your cannons,
you can add cold to them , that will add so many shots maybe a black powder bag sort of way?

Let some vet rewards be sold ingame on npc vendors, nothing that is to special..

The tree stump comes to mind for 1 , plus the added bonus of the wood may slow the scripters down..yes i know whats to stop me from buying 100....

thats easy put a limit on how many a account can have of the npc ones, but not limit a true vet reward one..

Add some of the old no longer spawning items to game..dread mares, conjys trinket, cloak from holloween...

Give back the option to imbue arties at a cost in gold, you can only imbue so much anyways on some and most you cant..

Bring in speciak tilles for house, such as different water shoreline sets square only goes so far , land and grass types also..

Windows with shutters , or full stained glass be nice and can be extra in gold , by the way you will not get gold back from undoing house adds..so a perma gold sink..

Now one people always pancake about, add power scrolls to Tram.. 105 - 115 only leave the 120 in Fel....

This in itself may help some new players to afford scrolls , insted of them being over priced and added only a few at a time to keep prices up...

What about gold sink you can add to your ship , so theres no need to refresh it all the time, trust me seen alot of them sink because people are gone away for a week plus and forget about them..
 

Goodmann

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Insurance COST is the ultimate gold sink. Back in the day a death would mean you lost everything!!!! Well these days whats a death cost 4-6k *nothing*! Move that to 50k and now were talking, hell I don't want to get killed either pvm or pvp at 50k a pop but it would eliminate MASS amounts of gold from the game and make the game more dynamic if that's possible. A death to a monster/npc=50k A death to faction pvp= 50k- 25k going towards the faction town (or some type of reward system) and 25k to a player that made the kill. A regular pvp non faction death = 50k- 25k going to the winning player and 25k going to a Brittania tax . Imagine all the good this would do for the game, I might even have to go farm monsters again to make gold to support my pvm/pvp habbits (never ending gold sink).
 

Nexus

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Insurance COST is the ultimate gold sink. Back in the day a death would mean you lost everything!!!! Well these days whats a death cost 4-6k *nothing*! Move that to 50k and now were talking, hell I don't want to get killed either pvm or pvp at 50k a pop but it would eliminate MASS amounts of gold from the game and make the game more dynamic if that's possible. A death to a monster/npc=50k A death to faction pvp= 50k- 25k going towards the faction town (or some type of reward system) and 25k to a player that made the kill. A regular pvp non faction death = 50k- 25k going to the winning player and 25k going to a Brittania tax . Imagine all the good this would do for the game, I might even have to go farm monsters again to make gold to support my pvm/pvp habbits (never ending gold sink).
Only problem with this is, 50k still encumbers the new folks. When you only have a couple hundred thousand gold because you are just starting off, 4-6k isn't a set back, 50k is. A good sink that is global would have to be able to work effectively and not encumber new players. For some established players this isn't a big deal, but that's not true across the board. It eventually would turn into Risk everything, or most of everything and set newer players back even further, those of us that have been kicking around for years, already have a huge advantage in terms knowledge unfortunately we can't put a fee on that. No need to punish people for ignorance of game mechanics, commodity values, or lack of time invested in playing UO to gain knowledge.
 

JC the Builder

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I was just thinking of doing a huge essay about the state of the UO economy when I stumble upon this thread. What a coincidence.

The problem with the UO economy boils down to one very simple issue: too much gold is created, not enough is destroyed. Without knowing the exact figures, I would guess it is at least a 100x1 imbalance. For every 1 million removed, 100 million is added. In other words 100% inflation and that is a conservative estimation. In comparison Eve Online has an inflation rate of 2% because they are very serious about maintaining a stable game economy.

For there is be a serious economic discussion the developers should release the following figures (preferably over some type of time period):

- How much gold is created per day/month
- How much gold is destroyed per day/month
- How much gold is in existence

The third one is really key. As players we have no idea how much gold is really out there. The only figure we have ever heard was the 14 trillion deleted from that one duping incident. Removing a billion gold from the Magincia lottery won't help much if there is 100 trillion out there.
 
T

Trebr Drab

Guest
Remember the days when people used GM weapons and armor because it was "good enough"? Lots of people bought them, and lots of people produced and sold them, and being super rich or not didn't matter.

The super rich still had their own playground. Rares and castles mostly. But that didn't stop the rest from playing. We had inflation and we had economic "classes", but it didn't really matter.

That's what works best, in my opinion. If UO could get back to that, and expand the playgrounds for the rich as well as the rest (as they've pretty much done anyhow), I think the game would be much more playable and exciting for all.

But to do that, gear would have to be brought much closer together in power. Also, losing gear would have to be in to replace the loss that PKers caused. MOBs would need to not only loot, but destroy much of it. And the ease of repair vs. wear would have to change.
 

Nexus

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The third one is really key. As players we have no idea how much gold is really out there. The only figure we have ever heard was the 14 trillion deleted from that one duping incident. Removing a billion gold from the Magincia lottery won't help much if there is 100 trillion out there.
How much gold is in existence doesn't really matter, it never has. If there were only 100 million gold in comparison to 100 trillion in existence spread out in the same ratio it is now, item prices would simply not have as many zeros at the end, but the relative value of gold would be exactly the same.

It doesn't matter how much gold you do or don't have, it's what you can buy with it that matters, that's the core root truth to economics it's buying power that matters, not quantity of currency. To reduce quantity they'd have to do it everywhere, not just in players bank boxes, but also as loot drops and that is why it simply can not work doing a ratioed exchange or wipe of currency.

So what if a 120 Mage scroll costs 15k vs 15 million, if 15k is equivalent to 15 million because of removal of gold in the economy, it doesn't matter, the inflation rate is still exactly the same it's simply the proportions that have changed.

What need to be focused on is still very complex....

First
Gold In = Gold Out this needs to happen, it stabilizes prices as they are now.

Second
Commodities need "Defalted" This gives gold more buying power, in essence making it worth more.

Once commodities are deflated then measures to remove gold from the system can work, gold sinks can be effective because instead of the majority of players saving for that 120 Mage or that Orny player will have gold to basically toss into sinks.

The Community Collections system has the right idea, it's the economy that keeps it from working. The majority of players aren't going to toss 30m, 40m, or more into a sink as long as there are much more functional items available they can acquire that are nearly as costly. Look at the poor Zoo collection, I know plenty of folks who would buy the items if they were not concerned with conserving gold for more useful items. Those that could afford to and were inclined have already done so and that is why the sinks don't work.

Third
More good Sinks need put into place, that accept gold only. Once people have gold to toss away on decorative, items etc. they will.



Combine those three and maybe progress can be made.
 

JC the Builder

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How much gold is in existence doesn't really matter, it never has.
The amount of gold that exists does matter. The developers can balance the system all they want. They randomized ore spawn how long ago? It is quite hard to get now. I'm sitting on about 200k Valorite ingots I managed to collect before the change. If they added some super cool thing tomorrow based on today's Valorite ingot collection, I could heavily exploit it with my stockpile. The same thing will happen for gold if it is not addressed. Players will sit with there billions of gold stockpiled.

All your discussion about commodities is not a solution. Player to player trading only helps move gold around, it does not remove it from the game. Commodities themselves are also a source of inflation because items in UO stopped being destroyed in 2003 with item insurance and no equipment decay.
 

TullyMars

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Aye but commodity pricing on more items could help.

Imagine if they made a solitary npc vendor in Minoc that bought and sold only valorite ingots and used the NPC commodity pricing scheme.

They set the initial price at 500 gold per ingot.

Everyone says wow and buys up valorite ingots raising the price to say 1000 per ingot and removing a bunch of gold from the game.

Then you on your stockpile of valorite ingots decide to sell. But due to the NPC commodity price system, you only get 80% of the current price when selling to an NPC vendor.

Result:
20% of all transactions have left the game (assuming an equal amount of ingots are bought and sold)
If more is bought from the vendor than sold to the vendor more money leaves the game than the original 20%
If less is bought from the vendor than sold then yes more gold can come into the economy but as the price falls it will be less and less.

If you move all items currently on npc vendors to the commodity price system and introduce solitary vendors for commodities currently not in the npc market, you effect a 20% gold sink, constant access to resources for those players not willing to work for them, opportunities for new players to take advantage of money making opportunities.

Players with more money than sense would buy their resources from the npc vendors no matter the price.

Players with more resources than money would take advantage of this and sell off their wares to get the gold for items that are not in the commodity system.

New players would have an outlet for their wares and resources they collect without having to set up a player vendor.

Items to consider adding into the system could include a wide variety of items, like colored ingots and colored leather to start, and extending to other stuff like orange petals and enchanted apples etc.

In effect you create a commodities market that allows player to define their wealth in other items than gold.
 

JC the Builder

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Imagine if they made a solitary npc vendor in Minoc that bought and sold only valorite ingots and used the NPC commodity pricing scheme.
This would create an artifical economy which would break things even further. Right now the value of materials (iron ingots, wood, reagents) is kept at an extremely cheap price is because of NPC vendors. If NPC vendors did not create these items the price of iron ingots would probably shoot up several times the value they are now.

Valorite ingots used to sell for 55 gold each before the change I believe. Now they seem to be selling for 900 gold or more. This is the effect of a dynamic market which is not constrained by NPC prices. The price has risen dramatically to match the value of gold and the player demand of Valorite ingots. It will likely continue rising as more legacy stock is exhausted.

The commodity price system you mention has never worked for 2 reasons. The first is it is NPC based. If that NPC dies the price resets. The developers have had tor wipe NPCs a couple times and each time it was back to square one. Since they have not fixed this it will happen again in the future. It takes months and years for the NPC prices to catch up to what they should be because there are dozens of different NPCs that all need to be purchased from.

The second big reason is faction vendors. Put vendor down, buy 2,500 or 5,000 of the resource. Delete vendor. Put new vendor down to reset price. Why does such a gaping flaw in the system has allowed to remain untouched has basically created a loophole for people in factions to get the cheapest resources available to sell to everyone else still exist?
 
A

AesSedai

Guest
... For there is be a serious economic discussion the developers should release the following figures (preferably over some type of time period):

- How much gold is created per day/month
- How much gold is destroyed per day/month
- How much gold is in existence

The third one is really key. As players we have no idea how much gold is really out there. The only figure we have ever heard was the 14 trillion deleted from that one duping incident. Removing a billion gold from the Magincia lottery won't help much if there is 100 trillion out there.
- I strongly disagree that players should be aware of these figures.

If it helps you any, Vex said that he thinks the house lotto may pull in 50 to 100 billion in one thread and in this thread he said the same lotto drain would amount to about 'a drop in the bucket'...

---

So yeah as suggested earlier, don't vanish gold for that would be bad... truncate items and gold per account & then make any rumors of duping the highest dev/gm priority, to be dealt with swiftly. From that point onward, many of the other theories can be played with.. for until what already is is taken back a few notches, I don't see new players having much competitive angle unless they quickly learn to press their luck and work solely on obtaining what is considered to be the rare and valuable items of the day. This has been said and been true for years (I contend).

Gold sinks and other opt-in equivalents simply can not fix the (significantly illegally) bloated economy.. nor do I believe most types of tax systems would either.. so what will?
- Truncation, if you are serious about improving the current entropic situation of the economy/of the game...
 

Goodmann

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Only problem with this is, 50k still encumbers the new folks. When you only have a couple hundred thousand gold because you are just starting off, 4-6k isn't a set back, 50k is. A good sink that is global would have to be able to work effectively and not encumber new players. For some established players this isn't a big deal, but that's not true across the board. It eventually would turn into Risk everything, or most of everything and set newer players back even further, those of us that have been kicking around for years, already have a huge advantage in terms knowledge unfortunately we can't put a fee on that. No need to punish people for ignorance of game mechanics, commodity values, or lack of time invested in playing UO to gain knowledge.
That is the point, no gain is really appreciated unless it is earned. Some of my best uo times were early on when you had to actually take a risk on farming earth elementals (evading pk raids) so I could earn enough gold to make a suit- then only to loose it in battle. This is not punishing anyone but making a viable gold sink. New players would eventually understand if I only have X amount of gold I would have to kill monsters/craft to maintain my supplies before I venture out. Maybe new accounts get 40 days worth of free insurance only for new accounts (only in trammel) then the same rules would apply. I do have an advantage playing this game 13 years over someone that started 2 months ago and this is true with any game.
 

virtualhabitat

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The amount of gold that exists does matter. The developers can balance the system all they want. They randomized ore spawn how long ago? It is quite hard to get now. I'm sitting on about 200k Valorite ingots I managed to collect before the change. If they added some super cool thing tomorrow based on today's Valorite ingot collection, I could heavily exploit it with my stockpile. The same thing will happen for gold if it is not addressed. Players will sit with there billions of gold stockpiled.

All your discussion about commodities is not a solution. Player to player trading only helps move gold around, it does not remove it from the game. Commodities themselves are also a source of inflation because items in UO stopped being destroyed in 2003 with item insurance and no equipment decay.
Nexus is correct, The amount of gold doesn't matter.

It's the value of goods (from all sources) people are buying and selling relative to the amount of gold that matters.
(More precisely, it is people that want to buy and sell goods, but can't because there is not sufficient supply of goods)

This is known as too much money chasing too few goods.


Gold has no intrinsic value. The goods that people want to buy contain the overwhelming majority of the value of the UO economy.

Regardless of the amount of gold within existence, the question is about the real value of goods being bought and sold within the UO universe.

If you merely reduce the amount of currency by a few zeros, you have only succeeded in adjusting nominal value. Literally 'enumerated value'. -The Real value of the goods remains the same.
 

TullyMars

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Aye JC, I agree the reason iron ingots are at such a low price is becuase they are constrained by NPC vendors.

If other ingots were constrained by NPC pricing, would the price fall? Is this a bad thing? Would we slowly approach 55 gold for valorite again? Perhaps we start at this price and see if we rise to insure that gold doesn't go in and only comes out.

And the vendor wipe restart of prices might actually be a tool. If too much gold is in the game you could in essence artificially lower the valorite price by a reset thus encourage more people to buy and thus spend gold which removes it from the economy. Sure a few crafty economists will get rich playing the commodities market, but on average the house (aka UO) would win with a 20% take.

Just a couple days ago I was suggesting they close the loop hole of the restarting npc prices such as the ilshenar wandering gypsy camps and termur cities that happen on a daily basis. I thought it was horrible that I could go buy 3000 empty bottles for 15,000 gold in termur everyday and immediately sell them for 120,000 gold in other cities immediately. But someone pointed out that it meant someone had already spent over tons of gold to get the bottles up to the high price in the other town. Now I still think if the vendors didn't reset daily it would give a more realistic and fairer price and much less gaming of the system, but since the net for UO is gold leaving the economy then I am less worried about this.

Faction vendors are similiar to this and often why I jump back and forth on reagents being in the system. And I am not sure where the money goes that I would spend on a faction vendor, does it go to silver or what?
 
W

Woodsman

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- I strongly disagree that players should be aware of these figures.
I think it would provide a reference, because you have to have a starting point when you are suggesting solutions.
Gold sinks and other opt-in equivalents simply can not fix the (significantly illegally) bloated economy.. nor do I believe most types of tax systems would either.. so what will?

- Truncation, if you are serious about improving the current entropic situation of the economy/of the game...
Truncation simply chops off a number and doesn't actually deal with the long term problem. You might as well add 10 million gp checks, because both will have the same problem of not dealing with the root cause.

I don't think duping is a problem these days. I think we still feel the effects of it, but there is no good way to try and deal with those effects long after duping was dealt with.

You have to deal with scripting. As I think Petra or Nexus pointed out in a thread from a few years ago, the search sites run on scripting (which is why specific sites are barred from being linked/referred to on Stratics since they break the TOS), and as long as those sites are updating, you have a very visible sign that it's still going on in some fashion. As long as scripting is still going on, it's very tough to discuss economic changes, because those changes are probably only going to have a serious impact on the honest players.

If anything, the scripters love these kinds of discussions and ideas, because any kind of crazy taxes or mandatory gold sinks are going to drive more players into buying gold from the scripters, which means the scripters will generate even more gold, which will continue to make the situation worse.

The scripting has to be dealt with first and foremost, because until it's fixed, a lot of the ideas in this thread are useless.
 

JC the Builder

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If you merely reduce the amount of currency by a few zeros, you have only succeeded in adjusting nominal value. Literally 'enumerated value'. -The Real value of the goods remains the same.
If you don't want to address the amount of gold out there it is of course possible to balance the economy. But instead of a greater heal potion costing 30 gold it now costs 300 or 3,000. I think it would be much easier to go back to the original scale of thousands instead of millions.
 
W

Woodsman

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I've been against auction houses because I've personally played that game and manipulated prices on the World of Warcraft server by buying up certain items on certain days of the week and then selling them at a higher price. As somebody pointed out, I'm not keeping anybody from selling at a lower price, and short of scripting, it would be impossible to constantly do, and also it would still allow smaller vendors to sell their goods to everybody. I changed my mind and supported auction houses. I really liked them because they would require an actual in-game messaging/communication system with players.

Somebody said that the devs were against anything that would diminish the value of houses in Luna, and I trusted that they were right. Turns out they weren't right, well they weren't 100% right. I went and read what was said, and it turns out the devs were against anything that would diminish the value of housing in general, which in theory an auction house would, if it cut down on players visiting other players' houses.

I apologize to any devs for my thinking it was all about Luna - it ticked me off, first because somebody with a house in Luna is no more important than somebody with a house near Britain or Minoc - everybody is paying the same amount of money every month to have a bunch of pixels on a server, and second because every major UO housing expansion has always devalued houses that existed previously - Tram lowered prices on Fel houses, Malas lowered prices on Tram and Fel houses, and it made no sense to all of the sudden try and protect a certain group. I was wrong for thinking that, since the devs (Supreem) was talking about all housing everywhere.

With that in mind, clearly an auction house is not going to happen. That leaves us with some kind of vendor search where you'd have to be able to search vendors, but at the same time players should still have to physically visit those vendors to make any purchases. I like this idea. It still puts everybody on a level playing field, it negates the advantages some players have thanks to illegal third party search sites, and it would make for a great voluntary gold sink - sellers already pay a fee for a vendor, and EA could bump up the fee a bit for listing on the vendor search. It would also keep the value of housing up - nobody would stop visiting houses, nobody would stop visiting Luna, but it would get people out to visiting houses that are out of the way as well.

I think it could make for a very good gold sink. If you want it to be very active, you could style it like an auction - have the fee only cover X amount of days, just like there is a daily fee with vendors.
 
W

Wojoe

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I think a 90% gold wipe and some better controls from the devs are the best option.
 

HD2300

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...
You have to deal with scripting. As I think Petra or Nexus pointed out in a thread from a few years ago, the search sites run on scripting (which is why specific sites are barred from being linked/referred to on Stratics since they break the TOS), and as long as those sites are updating, you have a very visible sign that it's still going on in some fashion. As long as scripting is still going on, it's very tough to discuss economic changes, because those changes are probably only going to have a serious impact on the honest players.

If anything, the scripters love these kinds of discussions and ideas, because any kind of crazy taxes or mandatory gold sinks are going to drive more players into buying gold from the scripters, which means the scripters will generate even more gold, which will continue to make the situation worse.

The scripting has to be dealt with first and foremost, because until it's fixed, a lot of the ideas in this thread are useless.
Gold sinks do nothing but to encourage more scripting and gold sellers.

Talk is cheap. Cal said he was going to stop scripters, so just do it. Those search sites are still working, so obviously the scripters are still here. Stop scripters first before doing anything with the economy.
 
A

AesSedai

Guest
I think a 90% gold [and in the least some valuable/visibly duped items, if not all items, per account] wipe and some better controls from the devs are the best option. [~ an unannounced truncation, to be sure]
- Aye, I agree.

- I also agree with what Woodsman was noticing regarding illegal scripting; and follow that up with GM/Developer devotion to combatting this, including potential future duping... for what would trying to fix something be worth if you weren't able to better defend against future foul-ups which contributed to something (economy, etc...) being broken in the first place? -Rhetorical, cyclical, repeatable, inevitable, problematical, yes.

... same as it ever was...

Fix the economy? Focus on the cheating.. and.. truncate past mistakes.
-Aye: me thinks.
 

Nexus

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If you don't want to address the amount of gold out there it is of course possible to balance the economy. But instead of a greater heal potion costing 30 gold it now costs 300 or 3,000. I think it would be much easier to go back to the original scale of thousands instead of millions.

The problem we're pointing out is you can't address the amount of gold out there without addressing the value of commodities as well. The two are inherently linked. You just pointed it out yourself, by substituting 300 or 3000 for 30. It works the opposite way as well, if you where if you remove gold from the economic circles, 3000 or 300 just becomes 30. You are just hiding zeros, the nominal value of gold hasn't changed because 3000 became worth the same amount as 30.

Quantity of currency in an economy has nothing to do with the strength of that economy, it's purchasing power of that currency that matters. The strength of an economy is completely dependent on how much you can buy with a fixed amount of said currency.

That is the key to this whole debate, people with more gold will always have the ability to buy more, but it has nothing to do with the economy being broken or not.

To remove gold from the game without strengthening the buying power of the remaining gold does nothing to stabilize and improve the state of the games economy. It would simply free up storage for the extremely wealthy while leaving those with little gold in the same position they are in now. In short accomplishing nothing towards "Fixing" the economy. You would just be hiding the root problem for a period till gold accumulated again.
 

JC the Builder

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If you rescale the economy down, the buying power of players increase because monsters drop the appropriate level of gold again to purchase stuff. A Dragon 10 years ago dropped something like 800 gold I believe, that would buy you 25 potions. Today Dragons drop 2,500. That would almost buy you 1 potion.

So either the amount of gold needs to scale down, or increase Dragon loot to 75,000.
 
A

AesSedai

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If you rescale the economy down, the buying power of players increase because monsters drop the appropriate level of gold again to purchase stuff. A Dragon 10 years ago dropped something like 800 gold I believe, that would buy you 25 potions. Today Dragons drop 2,500. That would almost buy you 1 potion.

So either the amount of gold needs to scale down, or increase Dragon loot to 75,000.
- But by only focusing on one side of the story you still lose half the battle; what is the net in that? Currency and Commodities are often similar and different in limit.
 

Dermott of LS

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This thread was posted while I was away on a business trip and had somewhat limited (by time and events) access to check everything out, so I'll just throw in my own bits and pieces some may have already been addressed, discussed, dissected, whatever.

First of all, let's get the first issue out of the way... There willNEVER in the history of humanity EVER be an economy real or virtual that is equal in terms of how much everyone has and FAAAR too much evil has been done in the world (real and virtual) in order to try and create this equity of outcome. Just because a player has 1 billion or more gold and another has a thousand doesn't mean the economy is out of balance. Unless you know WHY these two have the amounts they have, then you cannot judge the economy just on "Player X has a lot more than Player Y".

The being said, the question becomes what makes the UO economy seem "broken"? I think the problem people have is that the numbers keep getting bigger and they would rather see them back to what they were years and years ago. The main reason the numbers are big is because UO uses only a base unit of currency. It does not use a graduated system the way many other games do (although the potential of one was given both in the Prime games which told you about copper and silver but ditched them as "unimportant to the Avatar" (Ultima 6 discussion with Terri at the Britain Mint as source) and in UO with the Rats in the Sewers event that dropped copper coins as the most common, silver as uncommon and gold as rare). So basically, the pure number is not "hidden" behind terminology.

The problem with big numbers is that the number can become so big that it no longer has meaning. In my line of work, I've experienced this feeling in the time I've been at my job. At first, the sight of hundreds if not thousands of real gold and silver coins, then tied to their metal value was an amazing sight, but after dealing with SO MUCH of it, the numbers now no longer have any real meaning behind them. That I think is what a lot of the problem is mentally with UO's economy... the prevalence of the "big number" 10s to 100s of millions for something instead of 10s to 100s of thousands. And just like in real life, the more of a currency it takes, the less value is seen that the currency holds (basically look at the US Dollar at the current time compared to metals, oil, or even closer to home, your weekly grocery bill).

So what about functionality. Well, as we know the UO system is built on the Faucet/Sink method. Gold is introduced through gameplay events that generate it within the world and removed through gameplay events that delete it from the world.

Everything else (player-to-player interactions) simply shuffles existing gold around (including gold sellers at their basic existence).

Lastly, of course, is the problem with exploiting (scripting, duping, etc) that unnaturally widens the effect of the Faucet, however, that is an issue that must be dealt with on its own. I think this thread is more based on the idea of the economy itself and what to do with it and less on the effects of exploiting, so aside from this mention I'm going to leave it out.

Personally, I think the problem with the current system is that the Sink/Drain portion is not nearly wide enough compared to the Faucet and this has been made worse by the fact that the faucet in many areas has been widened even further (by a factor of 10 or more for treasure/SOS chests for example)and there is talk of widening it even more than that, but by comparisons, the actual added sinks to counter this have been few and far between. The cost of the new boats is one, but a limited one. Gems for imbueing were one for a time while everyone was training up, but after the masses who want to run imbueing have hit their needed max level, the drops from standard gameplay fill this without an issue.

Also, there have been previous sinks that have been rendered obsolete and unused. LRC negated the VAST gold sink that was the need for reagents for spellcasting... by extension, Chivalry uses gold directly, but really the amount used is miniscule. Secondly, the change in how houses charged for rebuilding took out a potential sink as well.

Some ideas that have been rattling around in my mind:

1. Gold loot adjustment: Here I will SOMEWHAT disagree with Vex/Phoenix. I DO believe that SOME monsters need to have their gold drops lowered. Mid to upper end creatures that can be killed in a few hits with the right slayer weapon, EoO, and other templates; that spawn quickly; and have well over 1000 gold as loot need to be relooked at. I can see raising the gold on the lower end creatures that newer characters need to get "up to speed", but there should be a better limit against those (including myself) who can gold farm with efficiency. This is also an issue with the equipment loot (what used to be called magic items, but really IMO can't be called that anymore) in that it has become more of an issue of quantity over quality.

On the one hand, newer players need more "guided" loot to bring them forward while more experienced players need less "junk". Thus raise the lower end and drop the upper end.

2. Gold as an intangible: I know it's been discussed, but I find myself in this camp as it reduces if not eliminates the issue with dupes, makes trades between characters easier, and tends to prevent gold from passing on through being left in IDOCs (which does happen).

3. Houses: Here is an area that gold could be drained and not in the way many people have proposed. I'm NOT talking about a house tax or "rented" features or even one-time purchased deco items. I'm looking at the building/rebuilding issue. Right now, as long as you retain the same number of used tiles in a built house, you incur ZERO cost in rebuilding the structure. Use less and you get a refund, use more and you incur a cost. IMO, this could be done much better. Once a house is built and committed, a timer should start to give a player up to a day to make any changes to the design as desired under the above system (same = even, more = cost, less = refund). After this timer,any change should cost the player the appropriate amount per tile changed or added. Removed tiles would NOT refund any gold at this point. The idea is that players would have a cost to rebuild a house.

4. LRC reaching 100+ was a mistake (as would have been the Cap/Proficiency system to limit it). I'm not entirely sure what level LRC SHOULD be able to reach, but there should remain a need for reagents or tithed gold. So yes, here I'm calling for an LRC percentage nerf. Pick a top % be it 50, 75, 80, whatever and (unfortunately due to artifacts) cap at that level, BUT at the same time rebalance the values in the needed manner so that the current levels of LRC are needed to reach the new cap.

5. Shard-wide Vendor system: One of the factors that have people up in arms about the economy is the "Luna Effect" where everything is based on the (often overvalued) prices seen on Luna vendors. The ability to find other vendors with the same items for sale at lesser prices (i.e. competition) would go a LONG way in helping the mental aspect of the problems UO has with its economy. Like it or not, it's 2011, not 1999 and most players do NOT find it enjoyable anymore to spend hours combing the world to try and find the item they are wanting to buy at the price they are seeking when there are faster options available (both in and out of game).
 

Nexus

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If you rescale the economy down, the buying power of players increase because monsters drop the appropriate level of gold again to purchase stuff.
And the only way to scale it down is to effect it on the supply side by increasing the availability of items, items that players want to buy. Reducing gold will not achieve that effect at all, if they wiped 90% of the gold out of the game at server up tomorrow one of three things would most likely happen

A) Player to Player trade would either go on primarily a barter system or halt until gold supplies build back up.

B) Prices would drop by 90% and steadily increase as gold is re-introduced into the system until they reach present level and we're back to square one.

C) Mass hording would start, commodities would maintain their current prices or even more inflated values (value not price) as players attempt to horde gold.

You won't be effecting the buying power of gold at all, what you spent 1 million gold on before might only cost 100,000 gold now, but that's because 100,000 gold will be equivalent in value to what 1 million gold was, that 100k will have the exact same buying power that 1 mil had previously. You are just side stepping the inflation in appearance not fact. To get a handle on the economy they have to get a grip on inflation in fact not appearance, and the only way to do that is to make Gold be able to purchase more. If you scale back the currency you don't increase it's buying power, because items will simply follow suit at best, if you increase supply of items you increase buying power because supply and demand dictates that more competition between sellers yields lower prices.
 

JC the Builder

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- But by only focusing on one side of the story you still lose half the battle; what is the net in that? Currency and Commodities are often similar and different in limit.
I am just trying to point out that once you have a balanced economy, I think it is easier to deal in terms of thousands of gold instead of millions. Would you rather loot a Dragon with 2,500 gold or 75,000 gold? It would also be less of an impact on current players who are used to dealing with lesser amounts. If you woke up one day and suddenly Ornament of the Magician cost 100 million it would be weird compared to it dropping in price to 1 or 2 million gold.

Nexus, of course a comprehensive change is needed to fix the UO economy. You seem to be bogging down on one detail. What you say is true if they do it exactly as you say. But that is not the way I would do it.
 

Dermott of LS

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Lopping zeros off of everyone's gold stash isn't going to do anything when the Luna vendor prices will simply remain the same. In fact you're bound to screw up the entire system with such a plan due to two issues:

1. If you do it with NO warning, you're going to end up with a LOT of accounts being cancelled due to seeing what they have worked for being stolen away for no apparent reason than "it's for your own good" (or worse, "it's for the greater good").

2. If you give people prior warning, all they have to do is go out and dump all of their gold into stackable resources/commodities. Ingots, bottles, arrows, gems, etc. Simply buy out as much as possible, then sell post-gold nuke and you're right back where you were with a minimal of loss.
 

virtualhabitat

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If you rescale the economy down, the buying power of players increase because monsters drop the appropriate level of gold again to purchase stuff. A Dragon 10 years ago dropped something like 800 gold I believe, that would buy you 25 potions. Today Dragons drop 2,500. That would almost buy you 1 potion.

So either the amount of gold needs to scale down, or increase Dragon loot to 75,000.
JC, what you are perceiving is commonly called "The Money Illusion". It is a concept first given by Keynes (of Keynesian economics fame). There is a well written wiki on this very subject that explains how people have a "tendency to think of currency (in our case, UO gold) in nominal, rather than real terms. In other words, the numerical, or face value of the currency is mistaken for its purchasing power." UO gold has no real value intrinsically. Its value is based on its ability to exchange for goods or services.

Many suggestions I have read promote some version of reducing the amount of gold. This is a nominal view of gold. It really doesn't alter the structure of how the economy is currently functioning. Where ever you are in the economy now; how you are able to function inside it, will not change one iota.

In the real world, there are examples where countries have redenominated or artificially reduced the nominal value of a currency.

Zimbabwe, for example, in 2006 removed 3 zeros from their currency.

Then in 2008 they did it again and removed 10 zeros -yes, they removed ten zeros. Then, in 2009, they removed 12 zeros.
It has gotten so bad there, structurally speaking, they can't remove zeros from their currency fast enough.

On the other hand, if you increase the value of the economy by increasing production of goods that are in demand (increased item drops in some cases and possibly player driven production where practical)
Demand pull is eased because more people get what they were demanding, and prices drop as more gold is circulated among a greater number of people.

By the way, for the wealthy, they are the first beneficiaries of this increase in production. They will still maintain a greater economic demand and they will, by and large, get the goods first as they become available.

As gold's purchasing power increases, those with lots of gold can buy more stuff. As it happens, those with only a little gold will be able to buy more stuff too.
 

TullyMars

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And the only way to scale it down is to effect it on the supply side by increasing the availability of items, items that players want to buy.
I agree with that.
And that is why I think introducing vendors with some new items (colored ingots, colored leather, various consumables) using the commodity pricing scheme
(up 1 for every 1000 bought by players, down 1 for every 1000 sold to vendor, vendor buys from players at 80% of the price they sell for) would accomplish this.

A lot of people use orange petals (for example) thus the demand is always there.
If an npc vendor was introduced selling orange petals, players would buy them, it would be a continuous gold sink, the item would be consumed so nothing would be left of value in the system afterwards, a rough 20% of the total transaction money would leave the game, everyone would have equal access to these items, the prices would be standardized and not left to players imagination of what they are worth, and the price would not depend on the location of the vendor house.

Now you might say, if orange petals were on an npc vendors no one would garden. Well I am sure some would stop, but if the price rises too much it would entice people to garden to either save a buck or two for personal use or to sell to the npc vendor for profit.
 

Lord Frodo

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Lopping zeros off of everyone's gold stash isn't going to do anything when the Luna vendor prices will simply remain the same. In fact you're bound to screw up the entire system with such a plan due to two issues:

1. If you do it with NO warning, you're going to end up with a LOT of accounts being cancelled due to seeing what they have worked for being stolen away for no apparent reason than "it's for your own good" (or worse, "it's for the greater good").

2. If you give people prior warning, all they have to do is go out and dump all of their gold into stackable resources/commodities. Ingots, bottles, arrows, gems, etc. Simply buy out as much as possible, then sell post-gold nuke and you're right back where you were with a minimal of loss.
:thumbup:
 

Gheed

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Re: On Reagents

Reagents are an interesting subject. Here's a question:

BUT FIRST, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. This is not an idea that we are considering implementing.

Suppose there were a magic blessed bag that could hold up to 100 stone of reagents and scrolls, but in order for it to work you would have to feed it gold on an hourly basis -- otherwise it loses its blessing. How much gold would you be willing to feed it, and how did you arrive at that number?

AGAIN, THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. My purpose in posing that question is to elicit some responses specifically about the value of reagents, and LRC, and scrolls.
Forgive me if some of what I have to say has already been mentioned. Thre has been quite a bit of discussion in this thread and it is too late for me to take notes :)

Personally I wouldn't pay anything for it. I would stick with my 100% LRC suit for the day to day farming. But thats just me, I wont farm with my archer because I'm cheap and using the ammo just cuts into my profit. I use my thrower.. which is basically an archer w/100% lower ammo cost.

I would see something like this more popular in something like PvP or EM events where someone would try to squeeze every point of intensity out of their imbued suit.

I think it is a good general idea, but the devil is in the details. If you pay a sustained fee to maintain the bag's blessing, then you completely negate the need for LRC. So if someone is wearing a single LRC piece... say an artie that has 10% LRC, then there is no benefit from that small bonus.

Also, a big reason I like LRC is that I don't have to keep track of regs and I don't have to take the hit for weight. 100 stones of regs is 100 stones less in loot I can carry. @ a 20% loss in efficiency.

I liked the suggestion of treating this like tithing for chiv.... except it is like tithing for chiv. I like the chiv system and I think it is unique. I don't care for directly copying it to the reagent system because it completely negates the need for regs.

If I were to tweak the idea, I would allow for the blessed reg bag to be linked to a reg container at your house or in your bank box. Much like the endless water decanters we have now. Casting spells would consume regs from your linked container. Pay a substantial one time fee for the blessed bag and charge a fee, 1 or 2 GP per reg consumed from the linked container each time you cast a spell.

Doing this would not consume total weight carrying regs. It would allow you to stock your linked container with thousands of regs, so you wouldn't be concerned with keeping track of a small amount in your pack. Linked reg bags could also check for occasional < 100% LRC procs, thus not consume regs or fees if LRC did proc. You also have the option to equip a 100% LRC suit while still carrying your blessed/linked reg bag. This gives us the choice to turn the link use fees on or off real time.

*edit* also if you happen to loot a hand full of regs, you could place them in your pack and negate the link fees for those regs until they are consumed or leave your pack.
 
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