RMT discussion moved from the Genesis thread

[Tyrath]

She was perma banned as was everyone of her guild and any who had an item they duped....

The problem with punishing people with a duped item is they very often don't know the item is duped. I picked up a couple of Armor of Fortunes at a small idoc a couple of years ago and thought I would sell them neither would go on the vendor. I have transferred with stuff that I know for a fact was not duped and chargers of the fallen must be prone to this but when I arrived on ATL to sell them they would not go on the vendor, I know they were not duped because I bought them from the store and have never bought a charger in game. Most recently I traded a couple of 120 resist and mages for for some parry and tactics no need to use a vendor in the trade but I get home and none of the scrolls I got would drop in the scroll book. Threw a vendor up and shock they would not go on the vendor either. SO if you do any trading or pick things up at idocs there is reasonable chance that you are going to get some dupes in your pack. The chargers occasionally getting flagged a dupes when they are legit.................... Most of us I am guessing have at least some duped items in our hoards of junk and don;t even know it until we try to put it on a vendor.

 

[petemage]

The problem with punishing people with a duped item is they very often don't know the item is duped. I picked up a couple of Armor of Fortunes at a small idoc a couple of years ago and thought I would sell them neither would go on the vendor. I have transferred with stuff that I know for a fact was not duped and chargers of the fallen must be prone to this but when I arrived on ATL to sell them they would not go on the vendor, I know they were not duped because I bought them from the store and have never bought a charger in game. Most recently I traded a couple of 120 resist and mages for for some parry and tactics no need to use a vendor in the trade but I get home and none of the scrolls I got would drop in the scroll book. Threw a vendor up and shock they would not go on the vendor either. SO if you do any trading or pick things up at idocs there is reasonable chance that you are going to get some dupes in your pack. The chargers occasionally getting flagged a dupes when they are legit.................... Most of us I am guessing have at least some duped items in our hoards of junk and don;t even know it until we try to put it on a vendor.

My understanding is that their trigger for when an item is duped is simply "Is this item id unique on this shard?"

I guess when you transfer the items don't get new ids. So you can bring items that are in conflict with existing item ids on the shard where you arrive. They will both be unvendorable, yet none was duped.

Meanwhile the pros just redeed a stack of 60k ingots and get new ids whenever they want..

Bandaid fix with side effects..

 

[Uriah Heep]

Bandaid fix with side effects.

It's UO- dats how we roll...

 

[Lady Storm]

Tyrath the guild was all in on it... high end and rare items back then was super hard to get.
When you got 30 of more people with the same stuff... its very telling.
I will tell you 2 members of that guild were gone for nearly 3 months and came back to being banned...
This took both a bit of calling to get it fixed they were lucky that billing could prove the accounts were off during the time the duping was done.

The thing though now is the fact much of the deeds out there are not duped..
The cheaters have learned to cover their tracks very well
Its also why it was so hard to catch the ones who have been in the last few years...

oh by the way....
Some of the people over the last few years also blamed for being a duper or cheat have actually been working to trap the real culprits.
Stratics members have flamed them many times for things they have rumored to have done in the service of the game..
I know this for fact as some of my very old friends who have quit UO were these people.
It is why I said Rumors unfounded hurt.

 

[Tyrath]

oh by the way....
Some of the people over the last few years also blamed for being a duper or cheat have actually been working to trap the real culprits.
Stratics members have flamed them many times for things they have rumored to have done in the service of the game..
I know this for fact as some of my very old friends who have quit UO were these people.
It is why I said Rumors unfounded hurt.

SOrry but that is a real hard one to choke down.

 

[The Craftsman]

I've done enough IDOC's to loot a lifetime worth of resources

Many of which were undoubtedly duped. And do you care? I suspect not.

 

[Nexus]

Many of which were undoubtedly duped. And do you care? I suspect not.

I don't doubt at least a portion of them were, and I know some came from houses with all the tell tale signs of belonging to a script miners over the years, I'm talking non-special resources here I've never stumbled on a cache of special ingredients rather just boards, ingots, reagents. Do I care? Some, I'm glad those folks are gone, did I keep the resources, sure, I also handed many out to friends who were working mules, and used more than a few crafting furniture, add on items, and containers that I stuck in houses I'd place and give away to [young] characters, at least when you could find [young] players. I looked at is as I didn't pay for them and I didn't put much in the way of game time into acquiring them, why should I be greedy. Besides me doing that likely kept a few from purchasing the resources from RMTers.

 

[Uriah Heep]

Many of which were undoubtedly duped. And do you care? I suspect not.

I looted loads too, and I didn't care...I needed that mats
I pay to play, if I am gonna be the POlice, they need to pay me

 

[Fridgster]

Honestly, I do not believe the DEVs have any interest in clamping down on RMT. I also believe EA has all along had no issue with RMT. Think about it just for a moment. The actions by dev teams to control RMT is non-existent. Has anyone actually heard of someone being banned for RMT? So ask yourself why?
Could it be because they don't know about it? That's pretty unlikely. Perhaps the Devs are getting kickbacks? Again kind of a silly notion if you really think about it. The amount that would be needed to get them to look the other way would consume any type of profit one could gain. Not to mention it would have to span the entire life of UO since no one I have ever heard of has ever been banned for RMT. I can assure you it has gone on as long as UO has existed.
So why a rule against it? Pretty simple really. Liability.

 

[Tyrath]

I looted loads too, and I didn't care...I needed that mats
I pay to play, if I am gonna be the POlice, they need to pay me

Problem is it is not your, my or anyone elses job to be the police in this matter. Sure If I see it I report it or if in fel or Siege kill them but you go by their houses or the banks they drop in and despite multiple reports by multiple people they are still chuggin along sometimes for years at the same house recalling in and out. Occasionally I find one of those 7x7 or 8x8s with 25,000,000 stone boxes on the porch and it almost always 60k stacks of normal wood and unsmelted iron, sometimes I place a house and use a comod box to deed it other times I don't bother. Sometimes I find one with FW and Blood Wood or Ag or better smelted ignots in the form of 60k comod deeds or stacks. Yeah I snag those..... LOL I got bods to fill and one can never have too many Val Runic Hammers

 

[Tyrath]

Honestly, I do not believe the DEVs have any interest in clamping down on RMT. I also believe EA has all along had no issue with RMT. Think about it just for a moment. The actions by dev teams to control RMT is non-existent. Has anyone actually heard of someone being banned for RMT? So ask yourself why?
Could it be because they don't know about it? That's pretty unlikely. Perhaps the Devs are getting kickbacks? Again kind of a silly notion if you really think about it. The amount that would be needed to get them to look the other way would consume any type of profit one could gain. Not to mention it would have to span the entire life of UO since no one I have ever heard of has ever been banned for RMT. I can assure you it has gone on as long as UO has existed.
So why a rule against it? Pretty simple really. Liability.

What is funny a lot of the people doing the RMT now are the Same People that were RMT in year one. SO no I don't think they have even a little bit of interest in stopping it or the methods used to obtain the goods and golds.

 

[Pawain]

Along with Kylies post:

There are quiet players that do certain things for hours, days, weeks. You don't hear from them unless something specific comes up. One player on LS had enough MiBs to collect over 15 of the staffs during the event. When Luna is full of fished up items you know she has been on a fishing trip. Another fisherman was talking in Gen chat about the horrible RNG with the staffs. He used over 300 MiBs and got no staffs. Turns out he did not click the quest. Poor guy.

Another yelled out in chat earlier this year that they were making room and who wanted 60k iron deeds. I grabbed a few and immediately made a bunch of barding deeds and stuck them on my vendor for 20k each.

So there is probably a bazillion 60k deeds sitting around that were built legit. Its suspicious when the same Atl house can sell a bunch and restock them daily.

 

[Wing Zero Straight Edge]

His Luna house on Sonoma recently changed hands. Not sure if the "old"one fell, or if he was able to sell it. And like @Lady Storm mentioned, he was asking RL $$$ for it on the billboard. Hopefully (but extremely doubtful) one of the devs saw it, and he got banned! I think that would be awesome. Especially if he paid RL $$$ for the houses in the first place

WOW! Okay so this person was asking for 150 USD for there Luna house.

 

[Wing Zero Straight Edge]

Has anyone ever stopped to think that the gold selling websites could be owned and ran by GM's in game?
Do they have commands sets to make in game items on the spot and gold to hand out?

 

[Lady Storm]

Ah....... when I asked he wanted 2500$ for the house alone 35 if he added in the books.

Look I will not yell at anyone who works a 40 hour day, raising a set of kids, keeping the significant other happy and has only a few hours a week to put in to UO from buying sovereigns to trade for a few mils or supplies.
Hell if the source was their RL friend selling for RL cash id even be ok with...

We have had RMT nearly day 1 .....
To hit on players who sell things they have legit in game I am sorry to say if the EA legal have not gone after them all these years its not my place to smack them up side the head and say fix this.
Legally right now EA would not have a leg to stand on... they forfetted that when they didn't pursue the first guy who dared to tell them he was going to sell game resources for his gain.

This boils down to one thing and you and I best get it through our heads and come to terms with it ...
As long as EA and Broadsword allow it
WE DO NOT.

We tend to overstep our position a lot. That ToS has a lot of other equally hard written facts we love to over look.
Such as we rent the game... they own it.
They can change the rules at a moments notice without compensation to any of us...
Nexus can explain this part and why its not our business to tell EA how to run things...

Sorry guys

 

[Lady Storm]

Wow sorry ... ran into a bit of lag it seems can a admin help cut it down a few thank you

 

[Lore]

Has anyone ever stopped to think that the gold selling websites could be owned and ran by GM's in game?
Do they have commands sets to make in game items on the spot and gold to hand out?

Mesanna does what she can to limit this, but yes. A very liked and respected EM was caught not too long ago cheating and handing out favors to the less savory in the game. If it happened there for so long, I don't see it hard to believe GMs do it. And, I don't find it far fetched at all that a part of the game team would capitalize on RMT.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

Ah....... when I asked he wanted 2500$ for the house alone 35 if he added in the books.

Look I will not yell at anyone who works a 40 hour day, raising a set of kids, keeping the significant other happy and has only a few hours a week to put in to UO from buying sovereigns to trade for a few mils or supplies.
Hell if the source was their RL friend selling for RL cash id even be ok with...

We have had RMT nearly day 1 .....
To hit on players who sell things they have legit in game I am sorry to say if the EA legal have not gone after them all these years its not my place to smack them up side the head and say fix this.
Legally right now EA would not have a leg to stand on... they forfetted that when they didn't pursue the first guy who dared to tell them he was going to sell game resources for his gain.

This boils down to one thing and you and I best get it through our heads and come to terms with it ...
As long as EA and Broadsword allow it
WE DO NOT.

We tend to overstep our position a lot. That ToS has a lot of other equally hard written facts we love to over look.
Such as we rent the game... they own it.
They can change the rules at a moments notice without compensation to any of us...
Nexus can explain this part and why its not our business to tell EA how to run things...

Sorry guys

LOL I have no idea what you were trying to say there.

BUT, to me, here is the bottom line, "short and sweet" : 1) it IS against the ToS. 2) It DOES hurt the game, and the players left who DO follow the rules. 3) I know of more people who have left because they were fed up with the cheating/scripting/RMT BS than ANY other reason. and 4) A decision needs to be made regarding the situation. One way or the other. They need to come out and say they are going to allow it, OR they need to do their fraking job and get rid of the cheaters/ scripters/ RMT people.

@Mesanna @Kyronix @Bleak PLEASE ADDRESS THIS SUBJECT. When a well known player tells me that Broadsword/EA KNOW he buys and sells stuff for RL $$$ AND ARE OK WITH IT, it is a slap in the face to every player who follows the rules. Devs, feel free to contact me. I will be more than happy to explain the particulars in private.

PS If you are going to ALLOW it, at least have the courtesy to let us know you will not be enforcing that part of your own ToS.

 

[petemage]

LOL I have no idea what you were trying to say there.

BUT, to me, here is the bottom line, "short and sweet" : 1) it IS against the ToS. 2) It DOES hurt the game, and the players left who DO follow the rules. 3) I know of more people who have left because they were fed up with the cheating/scripting/RMT BS than ANY other reason. and 4) A decision needs to be made regarding the situation. One way or the other. They need to come out and say they are going to allow it, OR they need to do their fraking job and get rid of the cheaters/ scripters/ RMT people.

@Mesanna @Kyronix @Bleak PLEASE ADDRESS THIS SUBJECT. When a well known player tells me that Broadsword/EA KNOW he buys and sells stuff for RL $$$ AND ARE OK WITH IT, it is a slap in the face to every player who follows the rules. Devs, feel free to contact me. I will be more than happy to explain the particulars in private.

PS If you are going to ALLOW it, at least have the courtesy to let us know you will not be enforcing that part of your own ToS.

You expect them to take action after them willingful ignoring it basically since they started their jobs there? They will just keep sitting it out. Just like they have been sitting all the multiboxer talk out.

The question at hand is: Are you going to support them further in this? No problem if you do, but everybody must be aware that while you are paying to play this game, you are also paying to run a corrupt system that a handful of people professionally uses for making a living. You ok with that? No problem, go on. You don't like that? Well, you have to make a decision.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

you are also paying to run a corrupt system that a handful of people professionally uses for making a living.

It is a valid point.

 

[petemage]

I mean bottom line ever since I started playing UO is: Nobody gonna punish you if you sell or buy stuff for real money.

The TOS and legal crap talk on Stratics is nothing but hot air, since in-game you are actually free to do whatever you want (unless you up your game to duping thousands of mythic tokens)

 

[MalagAste]

Mesanna does what she can to limit this, but yes. A very liked and respected EM was caught not too long ago cheating and handing out favors to the less savory in the game. If it happened there for so long, I don't see it hard to believe GMs do it. And, I don't find it far fetched at all that a part of the game team would capitalize on RMT.

Probably a good thing then that most GMs come from DAoC not UO... and few even understand anything that goes on in UO...

 

[Lady Storm]

What I meant was EA owns UO and they can run the legal as they see fit... we on the other hand may pay monthly but have little say in how they operate.
If EA stepped in and did something about the RMT then ok they would be doing what should be done.
I don't see them doing so... 20 years of no action...
Secondly if something is sold by a player its none of our business, Mesanna has the last word and I would hazard to guess its based on EA Legal Department direction.
Her hands might just be tied in any action she might take on a player who does so.
We do not have all the facts.
Guessing on the legal EA's going by might not be the usual thinking we are going by.
I know a lot of people in UO over the years who have sold in game items, gold, houses, accounts.
I myself gave a friend 100$ for 2 of her accounts ... she was in need of money due to a bad divorce, a condo she was stuck with that had not been completed (no plumbing) and due to the husband she had just lost her job... She gave me the accounts weeks before and when I found out why... I gave her 100$ to help her out.
So you can say I bought 2 accounts or you can say I helped a friend with a 100$ gift and she gifted me 2 accounts.
Its all perspective.
For 20 + years EA has let it go by and they did little if anything to stop it...

 

[Captn Norrington]

My view of how RMT works in UO and how much effort is put in to stop it by those in charge (whoever they may be) can be summarized well in one gif.

 

[Lady Storm]

Tina while your point is well taken and I find it in good with some here.
I was talking to a non-gamer, he and his wife are old friends, they never caught the online bug.
They know I spend some of my day online.. Both are a few years older then I.
He loves to hear of my exploits, and what's going on in my game life. He says its like a mini soap opera from the days of radio.
He's right!
I told both of the issue of the real life cash trading and selling in game of mats and property.. and how there are complaints from some here.
I explained how some company's draw off income from all the games not just mine.
The wife said something that got me thinking.
She said "Then there is a difference most are not really looking at that defines the line." (she was a bean counter before retirement)
"You see, trades be in game or out with re-guard to cash trading for goods, be it intangible or real fall under 2 distinct lines of trade law."
"One is personal. The other Business. When players sell for cash or trade goods from a game the government has to find how to tax it ... it needs a value."
Yea I hope you just caught on.... so did I TAX???
When a company sells intangible items its based on their selling price... so the tax man has a leg to stand on.
But when a player sells say that Luna house for a gazillion gold or a few thousand dollars.. its hard to say this but did you know your to put that on your taxes....
as a financial gain... The tax man don't care where you got the cash as long as you put it on the 1040.
So my friend laughed ...."see your game can be such a marvel of soap opera drama"
I had to laugh... We fight over rules and regulations for what?
This is for our fun.
We have put our nose in where the game has no need for it.
EA has a super large legal department, if it was in their best interest you can bet your bottom dollar any and all Sales would be non existant.
Many these days are not even in our country....

 

[The Craftsman]

This boils down to one thing and you and I best get it through our heads and come to terms with it ...
As long as EA and Broadsword allow it
WE DO NOT.

On that logic the same applies not only to RMT but to cheating, duping, scripting, griefing, multiboxing et al.

So what youre in effect saying is we should shut the hell up about all of these things as they are entirely EA/BS's to manage as they see fit, and as they see fit to ignore to the point of condoning then thats all fine.

Great. I expect never to see a single post on stratics whining about these things again. By your logic.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

it tells me that Broadsword and EA don't care if they are enabling tax scofflaws and that they don't have the backbone or will to enforce their own rules. It makes me wonder if they will do the right thing if players break other rules in the ToS , e.g., publishing a player's real life name and address or being abusive or threatening to another player. In other words, will they pick and choose which rules they will or won't enforce, based on who is breaking said rules?

Very nicely stated!

 

[Lore]

IAlso, it's been a long, long time now since EA or Broadsword has said anything to players to indicate that selling UO items for cash is not allowed. They have also done little to nothing to stop gold-sellers from broadcasting their sales pitches in chat or throwing advertising all over the game in the form of books or bulletin board posts. Why should that matter to me? Well, it matters to me because it tells me that Broadsword and EA don't care if they are enabling tax scofflaws and that they don't have the backbone or will to enforce their own rules. It makes me wonder if they will do the right thing if players break other rules in the ToS , e.g., publishing a player's real life name and address or being abusive or threatening to another player. In other words, will they pick and choose which rules they will or won't enforce, based on who is breaking said rules?

If you're getting threats online, report it to the police. They will file a report. If it happens again, file a report again. Then take the two reports and keep calling the police office everyday for a week and mail them a letter. If you still get no action, go to the local court office and file a letter against the police if you don't know the person making threats or against the person if you do know them. You'll have to pay a small filing fee.

Not many people know the steps to handling issues like that... so there you go. Obviously, if you're instigating the threats you're going to lose. A judge will either dismiss your case, grant a restraining order, or put the threatener in jail to cool off. Even if they are out of state they will have to come. There is a law that you have to sue them in their home state, but in the case of online threats you can easily argue against that if they file the motion.

All of this can be done without a lawyer and, except for the court date, an hour at a time in the court office. This particular court office is usually pretty dull and no lines. Even here in Atlanta. I've helped my sister do this twice. Once we got a restraining order that is on the other person's public record and the second time we got a restraining order and he was sentenced to probation for a month and anger management courses.

I remember one other poster on here used to complain about being harrassed a lot. She doesn't come around anymore and I always suspected she brought it on herself, but it's not EAs job to really do anything. They can act after police action though.

I'd be very surprised if you sent the Devs a police report and judgement against someone and they didn't ban their account.

 

[Uriah Heep]

Maybe what Mesanna and the dev team need to think about then is why UO still has so many players engaged in RMT transactions. Have they done enough to make UO enjoyable and feasible for "average" players, especially ones new to the game or returning after years away,

Players in RMT transactions are growing because of shrinking time and more competition.

1. Times are tough, most can't play as much as they did 20 years ago, until a few years ago I had to work two jobs. Not enough time for the grind.
2. More games are out there to play, that might not be quite as grindy.

Seriously, 18-20 years ago mining and lumberjacking, in fact, most everything was fun. it was new, it was awesome, we were building something.
Now? I personally have zero intentiion of mining for 4-5 hours hoping to score enough valorite to fill those bods. It isn't gonna happen. Nope.
I have no intention of LJ'ing for 4-5 hours hoping to score some frostwood. Nope, aint gonna happen.
So I either buy or I don't participate.

Won't be a problem after a few more years tho, as more and more move on the RMT will start to drop off, cause no one will be left to buy. It's a shame the team won't listen and start cutting back on the grinding instead of making everything they add an even bigger grind. Having us pointlessly grind all the time is NOT the same as adding new content.

You want more players, happier players, well ease off the grindy stuff. Lighten up, go for making it fun and enjoyable instead of lengthy grindy and time consuming. And a side effect of doing that will be that there will be less people spending $$ and doing it themselves

 

[petemage]

On that logic the same applies not only to RMT but to cheating, duping, scripting, griefing, multiboxing et al.

So what youre in effect saying is we should shut the hell up about all of these things as they are entirely EA/BS's to manage as they see fit, and as they see fit to ignore to the point of condoning then thats all fine.

Well, isn't that what Bonnie is basically telling us about Multiboxing for the last couple years?

I think you nailed it.

 

[petemage]

It makes me wonder if they will do the right thing if players break other rules in the ToS , e.g., publishing a player's real life name and address or being abusive or threatening to another player. In other words, will they pick and choose which rules they will or won't enforce, based on who is breaking said rules?

Judging by how randomly Bonnie chimes in to save player houses, shard shields and rares from friends - while on the other hand many loose houses and stuff and never even get a response from her - I have little reason to assume it would be any different.

 

[Lady Storm]

petemage give the woman a break... if she was on game 24/7/365 fixing wrongs for players, you would still pancake about her not doing something for you...
She being Mesanna, has a home life and works for the game. She does not sleep in her cubicle at the office or have every e-mail on her to do list.. last time I asked about a e -mail I sent in she has said 3 to 4 k per day inbox stuffed if no subject listed the odds of her seeing it that day is asking a lot.
As for the multiboxing issue, some people still are not up on the difference between mulit client and multiboxing.
I have sat back explaining to a few new players the difference.
Once they get the idea they understand the issue people are yipping about.
It's cheating.
I listened to Mesanna at a few M&Gs.
On this topic, she has said they were working with a way to trace and tag multiboxers for years.
They believe they will have a solution at the launch of EJ... ill hold my breath.. not.
Its not as easy as many of you make it out.. Yea she could pop in the events but think on that for a second.
Events at times happen at the EM's time table not hers.
EM's are all over the USA, Europe and Asia.
For her to go to each one to nab these players would be a full job in its self much less her day job.
Yes she could have a set person do it... but now your getting into the legal end of things...
EA would need to approve ..... Their legal department is not known to be flexable.
Come on you and I know they not the greatest on follow through or giving up power.
Mind you we also have a very small dev as it is.
Tina I wish it was so simple as you and many think to fix all this .....
I see a quagmire of legal situations the game may never be able to deal with.
The IRS has been working on a way to trace this stuff...
I do not put it past the IRS to find a way to trace purchases and make a killing on the past tax loss, players have omitted for years off the 1040 any sales gain....
My late uncle was a IRS agent.
He use to say that one day he expects the IRS to tax our dreams...
The Craftsman reread what you pointed out...
WE DO NOT... this is we need to not use any of these methods of offers for things from the game.
I can see some taking issue with this.
That's a hard thing when a player who's been in super need of the gold for something they have wanted for years and it finally is offered and its their first time using ..
Do you look the other way as they use a service to get that gold...
You tend to be black and white... when our world is in full color.
Look I am not happy there are company's out there taking advantage of players needs and wants and rolling in millions off the game community.
Its one thing being 2 players making a trade, that's not killing the game.
The real hurt is that these company's have a soup to nuts menu that can cover all 27 shards, 24 hours a day. As long as you pay them...
Some have shafted players....

 

[petemage]

petemage give the woman a break... if she was on game 24/7/365 fixing wrongs for players, you would still pancake about her not doing something for you...

You are missing the point. It's not about me. I can't even think why the producer should do something directly for me. UO entitlement much, huh?

I criticize her for her messed up priorities. She rather spends an hour helping a single player in game than working a way out that GMs can do this low level tasks in the future. I call that busywork. She feels good for doing good stuff to some random people, but at the end it's barely helping the game in a broad sense.

She does never proof read any piece of text she publishes. She breaks news to her friends and expects everyone else to find out by themselfs (How long did it take for her to finally put the information on the house raffles out last year?). And so on and so on. Yet she finds time to play house for some guy with a random story about to lose a shard shield.

 

[petemage]

last time I asked about a e -mail I sent in she has said 3 to 4 k per day inbox stuffed if no subject listed the odds of her seeing it that day is asking a lot.

Yea, and it probably never came to your or Bonnie's mind that this is a self-made problem. Tell everyone to email me. Act surprised they actually do.

The places I worked at we share work, we delegate, we know nobody can handle thousands of emails per day. Bonnie does it the other way around, trying to centralize as much responsibilities as possible on her desk, then acting like it's not her fault she got no time.

 

[petemage]

As for the multiboxing issue, some people still are not up on the difference between mulit client and multiboxing.

Apparently Bonnie as well, since I can't recall any actions taken so far.

But lets end this here. I could go on with like every sentence of your post. But I know you will find new excuses why everyone is at fault but her I stop here.

 

[petemage]

On this topic, she has said they were working with a way to trace and tag multiboxers for years.
They believe they will have a solution at the launch of EJ... ill hold my breath.. not.
Its not as easy as many of you make it out.. Yea she could pop in the events but think on that for a second.
Events at times happen at the EM's time table not hers.
EM's are all over the USA, Europe and Asia.
For her to go to each one to nab these players would be a full job in its self much less her day job.

Ok what gives. One more:

Sounds like EMs should have power to remove multiboxers from their event. But then she even can't make them post in a timely manner on the calendar (famous "I will fire her" quote), let alone trusting them with more powers.

Like who is actually responsible working on solutions for these issues, if not the producer?

But the producer is busy sending an email to Lady Storm explaining how she gets 3k emails per day. Whatever that might help UO..

 

[The Craftsman]

@petemage great responses ... thanks for saving me the time, although I suspect you are talking to a brick wall.

@Lady Storm how you can defend her beggars belief ... if I did my job that badly I'd be fired.

 

[Lady Storm]

petemage ..... she said that at a m&g to me when I asked if she had gotten it.
EM's have been let go more then you know...
On some of the shards I play the EM change over have been numerous.
Their powers have been greatly limited as per the Clops deal.
She trusted him as a employee from the management office he once held at EA.
So don't go all full meltdown in the hate department when she pulls in the reigns of the EM's.
Has it occurred to you their lack of postings is in protest of the loss of their coveted powers?
Because Clops was not the first EM to abuse the office...but the most visual to the player population.
Or have you forgotten them too??
The Craftsman .... if I could say what I want you would be cowering in a corner mister...
OF the 3 males who have been in the LP chair before her the game was mostly run without your 2 cents.
In fact they could care less if you subscribed to the game period.
They wanted the game to got the EA way not your way and in so many words ignored you period.
That idiot she took over from was a EA appointed dweeb.
He did nada but run his mouth and give promises that were so hollow the echo was booming.
Nothing he said was true, he didn't know UO or its people.
Before his reign of stupidity was another yes man for EA.
Sunsword was a LP who again was a politician for EA.
My son went to one of his open forums of player meet dev.
He presented a breakdown of what was coming and asked for questions and ideas..
Every idea that didn't fit in that projected future of UO was quickly dismissed as not fitting for their game...
You must remember these events of sets of Dev's doing town halls...
On a scale of things players have wanted and what the EA future looked like Bonnie Armstrong has done more for us than the 3 combined.
Sunsword had dev team of over 35 people... She has 5. No thanks to EA.

 

[Uriah Heep]

And Sunsword is the turd that forced AoS on us...IMO worse move ever, made us totally item based

So yeah, she is better than him, that I will admit to

 

[petemage]

...

Alright, just proves my point that you aren't even trying to have a discussion. Feel free to follow up on any of my posts above. But please spare us another wall of text of this nonsense.

Indeed talking to a brick wall...

 

[Lady Storm]

petemage ..have you ever really looked at a brick wall?
I mean really looked at its structure and mats?
Each brick..is baked clay and uniform in size and weight.
The mortar is well mixed and has a strong bond to those bricks once dry.
Hit it with your fist.. you will not knock it down.
Yell at it... it will not flinch at your temper.
With all your bluster and ill will it will still protect you when you need it the most.
Don't knock the wall's protection.

 

[petemage]

Wow, now I am a liar and hating woman

I'm open to continue a civil discussion about what is wrong with the management of the game we all love. Feel free to follow up on any of my posts above. But discussing on this level is outright silly. Seems you are out of arguments?

E: Oh, and yes, I think her removal would open up a future for UO. I have a lot of faith that e.g. Kyronix would do a much more professional job.

 

[Lady Storm]

OMG where in there is your name petemage... we feeling guilty are we???

Oh its nonsense when the last 3 LP before her didn't listen to a word you or I said period and to the present LP who does...
Give me a break.
Is it nonsense??
Being upset over a comment that some may be using gender as a reason a job in their opinion is not done right??
Prove me wrong ...

 

[Riyana]

I have removed a couple of posts here.

This conversation was going remarkably well given how strongly many people feel about the topic. Let's keep it that way by staying on topic and not devolving into bashing anyone personally or trolling each other. Thank you.

 

[petemage]

OMG where in there is your name petemage... we feeling guilty are we???

Oh its nonsense when the last 3 LP before her didn't listen to a word you or I said period and to the present LP who does...
Give me a break.
Is it nonsense??
Being upset over a comment that some may be using gender as a reason a job in their opinion is not done right??
Prove me wrong ...

I'm still waiting for you to quote of my posts and move on with the civil discussion.

You started calling people liars and assuming they criticize Mesanna only because of her gender, which is the most ridiculous thing I have seen here in a while. At the same time you refuse to respond to anyone making a objective case here. Hard to take that as serious, but I'm pretty patient and will look again tomorrow. Maybe there is an follow up to my posts, but I doubt it...

 

[Lady Storm]

petemage basically the RMT issue is not some "one rule fits all."
Sure I do not like company's in this as they are not interested in the games over all perpetuation. They are after the all mighty dollar,
But do we have to put the average Joe of the game in this very same slot?
Some of you say the law/rule is the root and must be obeyed... but does it?
Is the guy who has played 10 years and amassed a good deal of high priced objects, sells for gold then offers the gold for purchase as he will never return.?
If you go by the rule many are so hard core to push then yes, he is guilty and should be perma banned and striped of it.
In my line of thought... no he is only making the full break from UO.
Would you have really put a stop to the kid who used his fun time to make a few extra dollars from his play to keep him in school and to graduate when his parents were too stretched to give him any more funds?
Again the rule says he should be perma banned and punished for it.
I say did he hurt the game so much? no He went on to become a successful professional. Would he had they put him in trouble? I doubt it.
The person who works to enjoy the game and trade things for different things in game .. be it gold, rare, house... this is what the game was built for.
If this is the case for perma banning and punishment a great many upstanding stratic's members would not be here now.
I will not name names but I do know a very large number who have done this and are now touting how they would ban...knotted fingers behind backs there guys??

We are 20 years in and EA's Legal department did not get far in any legal action on the company's that capitalized on UO and the current management has deemed it on a case by case basis.. If duping is involved.
Much of the things they sell is from them buying up accounts when the exodus started...
Oh and before you start on that issue of the rules..
EA changed its mind way back ..
Remember??
They charged 35$ to change ownership of creator accounts.

Oh joy in mudville... more to argue over that will do squat to the game at large....

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

But do we have to put the average Joe of the game in this very same slot?

Is the guy who has played 10 years and amassed a good deal of high priced objects, sells for gold then offers the gold for purchase as he will never return.?

IN MY OPINION, Short answer, yes. Long answer, yes. Because it IS still currently (at this time? ) against the UO ToS, and again, IN MY OPINION, it hurts the game overall. In BOTH cases. I compare it to being pregnant. There is no middle ground. You either are, or you aren't. You either follow the rules, or you don't. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Nexus]

petemage basically the RMT issue is not some "one rule fits all."
Sure I do not like company's in this as they are not interested in the games over all perpetuation. They are after the all mighty dollar,
But do we have to put the average Joe of the game in this very same slot?
Some of you say the law/rule is the root and must be obeyed... but does it?
Is the guy who has played 10 years and amassed a good deal of high priced objects, sells for gold then offers the gold for purchase as he will never return.?
If you go by the rule many are so hard core to push then yes, he is guilty and should be perma banned and striped of it.
In my line of thought... no he is only making the full break from UO.
Would you have really put a stop to the kid who used his fun time to make a few extra dollars from his play to keep him in school and to graduate when his parents were too stretched to give him any more funds?
Again the rule says he should be perma banned and punished for it.
I say did he hurt the game so much? no He went on to become a successful professional. Would he had they put him in trouble? I doubt it.
The person who works to enjoy the game and trade things for different things in game .. be it gold, rare, house... this is what the game was built for.
If this is the case for perma banning and punishment a great many upstanding stratic's members would not be here now.
I will not name names but I do know a very large number who have done this and are now touting how they would ban...knotted fingers behind backs there guys??

There absolutely needs to be a "One Rule Fits All" type situation, without one you have arbitrary application of power that leads to lack of trust, something we're seeing now. This is the root issue many have with Mesanna, believe it or not. I do believe that she wants to the best of the game, but I think at times her decisions get in the way of accomplishing that. To use the example of Clops you brought up earlier sure he was hammered by her, but what about the bots that drop books all over Luna? Is that guy getting nailed? Why is she hiring widely known RMT sellers as EM's? What would make her trust them knowing they've openly exploited UO for personal profit in the past? Why in the world did she use his houses as a contest prize when someone less notable their house would be emptied and allowed to fall? These all look like preferential treatment that wouldn't exist if the rules were enforced and enacted consistently in a "One Rule Fits All" style. These are just an example based on a specific scenario, not the entire scope of her time as Producer. I promise you every single time something that brings to question her judgement like this has happened, she thought the individual, statement or change would be good for UO but there was a lapse in judgement related to it's execution.

I'll also admit, she's not alone in this, it's been true for pretty much every producer, the difference is Mesanna has put herself squarely in the line of fire through her increased interaction directly with the community, rather than having a Community Rep., of course they may not have the budget for one, but you know that's why it's good they have official forums, maybe now she'll consider a bit of professional detachment from the overall community.

To address some of your other examples:

Business' will almost always be about cash flow, RMT sellers aren't doing it for altruistic purposes either, separating the two is subjecting yourself to a logical fallacy when they have the same end goal, profit. If they were altruistic in their goals they'd be handing out gold and items, not making a buck off it.

Your college student, would he have eventually gone on to be successful? Well with all the time he wouldn't be playing UO he could have picked up a regular job. I know when I went back to school to pick up some college to pad my resume, I worked 40 a week and took a full course schedule. If him being able to play UO in order to farm/gather items/gold to RMT was the deciding factor in him being successful, he didn't want it bad enough. He may not have pocketed cash off the RMT, rather he invested it in his education, he's profiting from it now.

The guy quitting UO and liquidating? If he's quitting why would it matter, he's not entitled to any $$$ for that gold, he doesn't own it to start with, EA does, so you're saying it's ok to sell someone's stuff against their wishes, if you'll never have to deal with them again?

We are 20 years in and EA's Legal department did not get far in any legal action on the company's that capitalized on UO and the current management has deemed it on a case by case basis.. If duping is involved.
Much of the things they sell is from them buying up accounts when the exodus started...
Oh and before you start on that issue of the rules..
EA changed its mind way back ..
Remember??
They charged 35$ to change ownership of creator accounts.

Oh joy in mudville... more to argue over that will do squat to the game at large....

EA has since stopped facilitating the transfer of accounts, and put a ban on it back into the Terms of Service, they may have allowed it in the past, but it appears they changed their minds again...

 

[Lady Storm]

Tina my point is:
What I am saying is EA didn't and wont hold anyone to that RMT. 20 + years have you ever heard of any lawsuit to a player for it??
If your going to be a hard azz and fry all ....why not start here.
You can kiss any gains EJ will make.
This game has some major members of this forum alone you can start with.
Add in the major owners on Atlantic... Honored players with creds up the tush in their charity.
I know a lot of them who have over the years sold tons of gold and property for cash.

The point I was making is if the owner of UO will not do it...
Where is it written it is our place to make them?

To me I have been contemplating quitting UO for the last 9 months..
But how to...
The idea of someone in my things is obhorent to me... So
Don't go sending PM's to buy what I own .. no one is getting squat.
That I have worked out how to destroy it all so no one gets diddly.
The castles and keeps and luna houses I was thinking of getting someone to sell for gold and putting it in the bank of the major account.
And no the accounts will not leave my hands ether.
They die with me.

This is how much I go for the sale of in game items.. I am guilty of some in the past...
Your black and white slate dosent fit my world of color.
Where reason is listened to and the power is not just cut and dry... there is areas of greys...
Maybe that is why EA's legal team didn't pursue it... the can of worms was only going to grow...

 

[Tyrath]

Your black and white slate dosent fit my world of color.

The world is a black and white place, there is only right and wrong and all that color you speak of are just excuses for doing wrong and fabricating grey areas to make it kind of OK.

 

[The Craftsman]

@Lady Storm ... youre cherry picking

You want to pick and choose to whom a TOS rule should apply. They apply to everybody and quite rightly so. To only apply to some and not others is a minefield and opens the whole system to abuse and leaves room for interpretation that could be considered favouritism.

To apply the TOS as you are suggesting is just plain ridiculous. You are quickly losing credibility in this thread and numerous posters are pointing out the flaws in your stance. Stop now whilst you still have an ounce of credibility left. Seriously.