Elmer, that is a great quote! Those that understand it are sure to agree. And that quote is the reason I suspect this thread has about ran its course.
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Religulous
- Thread starter Pestilence Hemp
- Start date
- Watchers 1
Elmer, that is a great quote! Those that understand it are sure to agree. And that quote is the reason I suspect this thread has about ran its course.
I need to write a book that speaks in circles, start my own religion. It will be the video game religion, will all go up in levels, use are skills as best we can to handle the PvE. The game is what ever you want it to be.
Send your donations, in the form of pot and snack cakes!
Send your donations, in the form of pot and snack cakes!
Just to get things straight I agree that religion has it's good points. I'm agnostic not athiest I can't come here and claim there isn't a god. You know as good of a person as I could possible be I'm going to hell under most religions.
I'm not going to make my choices because of god, heaven, hell. I think when you die you die that it, I would like to be a good person while i'm alive just because my one belief is "treat others the way you would like to be treated" it's such an easy concept i don't need religion to tell me to do it.
Here's my main beef with religion, If you don't 100% believe in a particular religion you are going to hell. I don't know what happens when you die, i'm not going to be a buddist, christain, muslim, or any other religion they all believe the others are going to hell, i don't. I only believe on what you do here on earth regardless of others religion.
To say i have no moral compass because I don't believe in god is incorrect.
I'm not going to make my choices because of god, heaven, hell. I think when you die you die that it, I would like to be a good person while i'm alive just because my one belief is "treat others the way you would like to be treated" it's such an easy concept i don't need religion to tell me to do it.
Here's my main beef with religion, If you don't 100% believe in a particular religion you are going to hell. I don't know what happens when you die, i'm not going to be a buddist, christain, muslim, or any other religion they all believe the others are going to hell, i don't. I only believe on what you do here on earth regardless of others religion.
To say i have no moral compass because I don't believe in god is incorrect.
You are actually wrong about the Constitution being based on Judeo-Christian values, they are actually based on Deist values. Its a misconception many Americans today have. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin and many other greats that were the Framers were not Christian. They were Quaker, Deist, etc which today typically falls under the umbrella of Unitarian Univeralism. If you want to really see into the minds of some of our Framers, read Ben Franklin's autobiography and "The Age of Reason", by Thomas Paine. Though be prepared with "The Age of Reason", it is some what infalmatory towards Christans, Jews, and Muslims, which if I remember right he refers to as Turks.
*Quakers I don't call them Christians for the simple reason they don't follow the views that main stream Christianity follows, with creeds, etc
For more information on Quakers: Quakers
Age of Reason -- better yet read the book, its a good read
Good site about Deism
About Unitarian Univeralism (aka UU)
/rant
Just really gets under my skin when people talk about our Constitution being based on Juedo-Christian values
M
Mogluk
Guest
and I see Deist popular beliefs also under the umbrella of judeo/christian as they are a deviation from traditional beliefes at teh time. They were still themselves founded upon the teachings and foundations of (at the time) modern religon. Come on I am Mormon.... people call me non-christian all the time. 
M
Mogluk
Guest
I agree it is incorrect, but religon by its nature allows more people access to a basic morality "framework" that will benefit soceity, so that people don't have to spend 30 years thrying to figure out "who they are". I think all people have the choice to be moral, and I in no uncertain terms fell athat religon is for everyone. Some peopel don't like following a dogmatic system of rules and beliefes. Others find a framework, the system of beliefs and rules, allows them to make more choices as some certain questions are fundamentally answered for them. Allowing them a freedom that people who have no belief system, or at least who have not made that decison, struggle to have due to them having to think and consider on a host of issues.
Religous people by nature are not close-minded, I look at them as rather they have made an umbrella decison and the weight of having to make many minor decisions obsolete. and that marks a difference of opinion for many. damn I ramble....
I love you Mo'. I do, I really do. Mormons are Christians, just because they don't see the Trinity as one being doesn't make them not Christian. Deists, find fault with all revealed works, the bible, the torah, etc. Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, and it is through him you are redeemed. As a Deist, I believe Jesus was a great man, and much can be learned from him and the life he lived BUT I do not believe he was God in human form. I also don't believe in hell but I do believe in immortality, that our awareness changes when we leave our bodies, what there is beyond, I don't know and won't know until I die but my legacy will live on through the lives I touch and impact, good, bad or otherwise. More accurately I'm probably a Pan-Deist, Pan-Theist depends on how much I want my brain to hurt and decide to reflect and try understand some of the great mysteries of life.and I see Deist popular beliefs also under the umbrella of judeo/christian as they are a deviation from traditional beliefes at teh time. They were still themselves founded upon the teachings and foundations of (at the time) modern religon. Come on I am Mormon.... people call me non-christian all the time.
Actually, I would disagree with that; if only from an intellectual standpoint. I am not saying that you cannot be person that lives there life well and does good things. Please understand that. The very definition of a compass is something that ALWAYS tells you what direction you are heading when used correctly.
Doing good and treating others as you would like to be treated is fine; but everybody has to agree that there are times in life when you will feel slighted or unjustly treated, and times in life when you just do not know what the best course of action should be. Without a compass to point you in the right direction, your well meaning attempts could very well go astray.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" is in the bible because EVERYBODY screws up from time to time.
It doesn't say that "Everybody sins every moment of every breath, and your not capable of doing ANYTHING good so just give it up."
The moral compass is only needed when you are in danger of becoming lost...
E
Elmer Fudd
Guest
*Remember "religion" is what sent Christ to the Cross
II Timothy 2:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the pwer thereof: from such turn away
4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
(4)
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables
Actually, it is you who is wrong.
The founding fathers were overwhelmingly Christian with over 75% being Episcopalian, Anglican, Presbyterian and Catholic.
Paine's book was rejected by Ben Franklin and John Adams amongst others.
Jefferson signed all Presidential documents with "In the year of our Lord Christ."
I could go on and on and on. Sadly, there's a concerted effort to take God out of everything in this country and in order to do so, some have distorted the views and words of a lot of the founding fathers in order to further that cause. Were all of the FFs Christian? Of course not. However, even those that were not agreed that it was best to root our society in the belief of God and the rights endowed upon us by Him.
He ask questions of every religion. I didnt want to say make fun of, because his questions were valid. But in a round about way ended up making fun of, really not the religions, but the people that were obviously were just blindly following what they are told.
The followers of Mohammad, well I hate to say it, kind of the scariest. Again just like Christianity, not all were so blind. but there book seemed to talk alot about, "follow what you want," but if you dont follow us your Infidels. Of course all infidels should die.......
which brings me to my point that there the scariest. Not that the other books, dont talk about killing and punishment.
The followers of Mohammad, well I hate to say it, kind of the scariest. Again just like Christianity, not all were so blind. but there book seemed to talk alot about, "follow what you want," but if you dont follow us your Infidels. Of course all infidels should die.......
which brings me to my point that there the scariest. Not that the other books, dont talk about killing and punishment.
OHHHHH, I just had to bite on this one. Can anyone correctly quote to me in the bible, considering the context that was in effect when and where it was written, that endorses personal killing and/or punishment.
I can't wait for this...be careful that you know the context. For an example, an "eye for an eye" which is often quoted as violent was actually an attempt to LIMIT punishment, since the people of that time were taking matters into their own hands and if you poked out their eye, they would kill you, kill your family, burn your house down and kill your livestock. So when it was spoken that an "eye for an eye" should be the standard they were attempting to limit violence and vengeance...not endorse it. just an example.
Also, make sure you understand the distinction made between matters of the government and personal responsibility. For example, the government is given authority to fight righteous wars against the unrighteous in many of the books (mostly old testament).
Now, I am not a bible scholar; but this will give me an opportunity to investigate some of the claims here and if I can I will respond.
I am sure I am setting myself up to not be able to answer at least one of the items that are sure to follow...but that is ok, I will consider it a learning process.
Some of the basics of religious groups I totally agree with. Unfortunately Religions disagree with each others gods and end up killing each other.
"The very definition of a compass is something that ALWAYS tells you what direction you are heading when used correctly."
You might not understand this but deep down inside when I do something wrong, hateful, or against my creed "do to others as you would have be done to yourself" I know exactly what direction I'm heading. You might believe I need a book to tell me what's right or wrong but when I do something hurtful to another human, however small it may be that little voice in my head tells me that was bad.
"The very definition of a compass is something that ALWAYS tells you what direction you are heading when used correctly."
I "HAVE" that. You believe I can't have that without god. I'm no saint but I know what I'm doing, have done, or will do is wrong or right.
Your religion does NOT have a patent on morals.
"The very definition of a compass is something that ALWAYS tells you what direction you are heading when used correctly."
You might not understand this but deep down inside when I do something wrong, hateful, or against my creed "do to others as you would have be done to yourself" I know exactly what direction I'm heading. You might believe I need a book to tell me what's right or wrong but when I do something hurtful to another human, however small it may be that little voice in my head tells me that was bad.
"The very definition of a compass is something that ALWAYS tells you what direction you are heading when used correctly."
I "HAVE" that. You believe I can't have that without god. I'm no saint but I know what I'm doing, have done, or will do is wrong or right.
Your religion does NOT have a patent on morals.
I'm no bible expert (ill be the first to admit) but i believe Abraham had to kill his son? The one guy was punished, so god and the devil could gamble on his faith. im sure there was more smoting and smiting going on, but its late and im not a scholar.
oh and isnt it a Commandment not not worship anyone else, under some sort of punishment. I guess really any commandment for that matter, falls under punishment for not "following."
M
Masumatek
Guest
Hey, don’t read here much anymore but noticed this thread and felt like commenting. Only skimmed it btw.
A few brief comments, wrote em quick btw:
There are logical arguments for the existence of god.
There are ethical systems having nothing to do with religion which allow people to have that “moral compass.”
“If all there is, is us and this earth why not live life for yourself and those you love. Screw everybody else...”
Because you believe doing only for yourself is wrong based on reasons other than what religious texts say? Also, some people who believe “this is it” might try to be the very best and moral people they can be since they only have this brief time of existence and then they’re gone forever. No second chances. No rebirths. No whatever. Just now, live now, be the best you can be, etc….You could use that same reason for doing whatever you feel and not giving a damn, but not being religious doesn’t mean that’s what you default to. Btw, I do believe in god, and I do agree that perhaps if everyone followed some religion, there would be more moral people. But that doesn’t mean you have to be religious to act morally.
“Being "moral" is contemplating the consequences and making a choice to prevent or avoid consequences.”
That’s not the only view of it. Some outright dismiss acting based on consequences…consequences shouldn’t factor into whether actions we take are moral or immoral, that actions should be judged based on some other standards of morality…such as rules given by god for instance. Doesn’t that conflict if you believe morality is avoiding negative consequences and striving for positive ones? What if god says do not kill. Someone comes into your home and tries to kill your family. Good consequences of killing bad guy = 5 good people surviving, bad consequences = one evil person dies. But, depending on your beliefs, might god not care about there being more good consequences generated from killing said evil guy and expect you and your family to die without acting violently?
Or here’s an even more extreme question. Say there is a horrible plague and 10 million people will die if we don’t perform a fatal experiment on one innocent child to get a cure? Bad consequences = one child dead. Good consequences = 10 million saved. Is it right or wrong to kill that innocent child? At what point does it become right if 10 million is too few people to sacrifice the life of an innocent? Or would saving less than 10 million make it right to murder that child? 10 children saved for one killed? 1.1 saved for every one killed? Personally, I say screw the consequences altogether. I wouldn’t kill one adult criminal to save humanity from extinction…
Depending on your beliefs, hell could be a negative consequence. Strive to be good so you don’t go to hell. But what makes a better person? Someone who tries their very best to be good so they don’t go to hell, or someone who tries their very best to be good because being good is good and doing wrong is wrong (hehe). I don’t believe fear of punishment should be the main driving force in doing good. Sure, to use your example, people might be less willing to commit a crime if they go to jail, or get the death sentence, or whatever it may be. But is that better than them choosing not to commit the crime because it is wrong, and deciding it is wrong for reason other than the negative consequence, such as going to jail?
Anyhow, tired and going to sleep. Hope I made sense.
A few brief comments, wrote em quick btw:
There are logical arguments for the existence of god.
There are ethical systems having nothing to do with religion which allow people to have that “moral compass.”
“If all there is, is us and this earth why not live life for yourself and those you love. Screw everybody else...”
Because you believe doing only for yourself is wrong based on reasons other than what religious texts say? Also, some people who believe “this is it” might try to be the very best and moral people they can be since they only have this brief time of existence and then they’re gone forever. No second chances. No rebirths. No whatever. Just now, live now, be the best you can be, etc….You could use that same reason for doing whatever you feel and not giving a damn, but not being religious doesn’t mean that’s what you default to. Btw, I do believe in god, and I do agree that perhaps if everyone followed some religion, there would be more moral people. But that doesn’t mean you have to be religious to act morally.
“Being "moral" is contemplating the consequences and making a choice to prevent or avoid consequences.”
That’s not the only view of it. Some outright dismiss acting based on consequences…consequences shouldn’t factor into whether actions we take are moral or immoral, that actions should be judged based on some other standards of morality…such as rules given by god for instance. Doesn’t that conflict if you believe morality is avoiding negative consequences and striving for positive ones? What if god says do not kill. Someone comes into your home and tries to kill your family. Good consequences of killing bad guy = 5 good people surviving, bad consequences = one evil person dies. But, depending on your beliefs, might god not care about there being more good consequences generated from killing said evil guy and expect you and your family to die without acting violently?
Or here’s an even more extreme question. Say there is a horrible plague and 10 million people will die if we don’t perform a fatal experiment on one innocent child to get a cure? Bad consequences = one child dead. Good consequences = 10 million saved. Is it right or wrong to kill that innocent child? At what point does it become right if 10 million is too few people to sacrifice the life of an innocent? Or would saving less than 10 million make it right to murder that child? 10 children saved for one killed? 1.1 saved for every one killed? Personally, I say screw the consequences altogether. I wouldn’t kill one adult criminal to save humanity from extinction…
Depending on your beliefs, hell could be a negative consequence. Strive to be good so you don’t go to hell. But what makes a better person? Someone who tries their very best to be good so they don’t go to hell, or someone who tries their very best to be good because being good is good and doing wrong is wrong (hehe). I don’t believe fear of punishment should be the main driving force in doing good. Sure, to use your example, people might be less willing to commit a crime if they go to jail, or get the death sentence, or whatever it may be. But is that better than them choosing not to commit the crime because it is wrong, and deciding it is wrong for reason other than the negative consequence, such as going to jail?
Anyhow, tired and going to sleep. Hope I made sense.
Masu! great to see you, whatever dragged you here.
I've not gotten involved in this thread, I have very mixed feelings about 'religion' whichever one someone follows, too many atrocities have been committed using it as an excuse.
I'm not entirely sure whether I believe in a higher being or not, I have one very simple dictum by which I live: 'Do as you would be done by'. I try hard to treat everyone as I'd like to be treated myself, with courtesy, friendliness, fairness and honesty.
I've not gotten involved in this thread, I have very mixed feelings about 'religion' whichever one someone follows, too many atrocities have been committed using it as an excuse.
I'm not entirely sure whether I believe in a higher being or not, I have one very simple dictum by which I live: 'Do as you would be done by'. I try hard to treat everyone as I'd like to be treated myself, with courtesy, friendliness, fairness and honesty.
Bingo. Exactly why I stayed out. Some of this planet's bloodiest wars have been fought in the name of some organized religion or another, so I eschew them myself. I maintain my own faith and spirituality, and do not need to "gather" with others of a like mind to bolster it.
Actually, Abraham was not forced to kill Isaac. God commanded him to do so to test Abraham's faith. While Abraham was going to the mountain to kill hi son, he told his servants "we" will be back...that is exactly what happened. God stepped in and stopped the act from occuring, because Abrahams faith had been proven.
The other guy you refer to is Job, and the entire book of Job has dealt many a bible scholar fits. The book does seem as though Job is simply tortured for the whim of the devil, and God allowed it to happen. There are a couple of notes to make of this that I believe have some relevance though. But since I am not bible scholar, these will probably be insufficient to fully explain this book.
First, the devil was forbidden to kill Job. Seems like little consolation, but considering that when the testing of Job was complete he recieved more blessings than he ever had in the first place it is an important restriction. The book of Job is largely used as a teaching tool for how we should act, and react when things are not going our way. Job at one point becomes furious at God and at the prompting of his so called "friends" tries to give God a piece of his mind. God was not in the mood for this attitude to say the least and give Job a piece of his own.
But actually, you cheated in your choice of Job, for it did not fit the original challenge of finding where the Bible endorses "personal killing, or punishment". It was a good challenge though.
An important thing to remember about God, is that he doesn't owe any of us anything. Period. He is God, and we are not. The very fact that he has opened a path for us through Jesus Christ to be in communion with him is evidence that he is merciful.
As far as the commandments are concerned, they are not punishment; but rather laws. The basic laws that God required of his people. Just like today, if you follow the laws, there is no reason for punishment.
@Troll - what/who do you think gives you that little voice? Where does it come from? If we came from apes, do they have it too?
K
KVJ
Guest
It's called evolution...... And learning........ I can teach a dog to say I love you.... And it sounds very human, I'm sure you can teach an ape as well.....Actually, Abraham was not forced to kill Isaac. God commanded him to do so to test Abraham's faith. While Abraham was going to the mountain to kill hi son, he told his servants "we" will be back...that is exactly what happened. God stepped in and stopped the act from occuring, because Abrahams faith had been proven.
The other guy you refer to is Job, and the entire book of Job has dealt many a bible scholar fits. The book does seem as though Job is simply tortured for the whim of the devil, and God allowed it to happen. There are a couple of notes to make of this that I believe have some relevance though. But since I am not bible scholar, these will probably be insufficient to fully explain this book.
First, the devil was forbidden to kill Job. Seems like little consolation, but considering that when the testing of Job was complete he recieved more blessings than he ever had in the first place it is an important restriction. The book of Job is largely used as a teaching tool for how we should act, and react when things are not going our way. Job at one point becomes furious at God and at the prompting of his so called "friends" tries to give God a piece of his mind. God was not in the mood for this attitude to say the least and give Job a piece of his own.
But actually, you cheated in your choice of Job, for it did not fit the original challenge of finding where the Bible endorses "personal killing, or punishment". It was a good challenge though.
An important thing to remember about God, is that he doesn't owe any of us anything. Period. He is God, and we are not. The very fact that he has opened a path for us through Jesus Christ to be in communion with him is evidence that he is merciful.
As far as the commandments are concerned, they are not punishment; but rather laws. The basic laws that God required of his people. Just like today, if you follow the laws, there is no reason for punishment.
@Troll - what/who do you think gives you that little voice? Where does it come from? If we came from apes, do they have it too?
If you do not believe me. Here is solid proof that we evolved from Monkeys....
I mean watch this whole video and you will understand me!!!!
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/76
S
Sweeney
Guest
The first commandment:
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
If only all faiths could be lucky enough to have such a gracious and benevolent leader.
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
If only all faiths could be lucky enough to have such a gracious and benevolent leader.
Great discussions by all.
Alas this argument will never be settled(as its hasnt in thousands of years.)
when the debate is apples and oranges, neither side will be able to prove there point to the other side.
apples being any religion, and oranges being any sort of logic.
Im basing my points off of logic, which religions just are not.
So I'm not going to see what you believe(its like telling charles manson, or hitler they were wrong. when really there beliefs were so strong they were willing to do whatever it took to get the other side to believe them.), and so you wont hear my logic.
which brings to my point that beliefs are the most dangerous thing we face.
Logic tells me theres no smurfs. But i believe they exsist so much, im willing to refute any solid evidence that there isnt.
I dont like blind devotion. Question everything!
strength comes from within, not an outside source!
Alas this argument will never be settled(as its hasnt in thousands of years.)
when the debate is apples and oranges, neither side will be able to prove there point to the other side.
apples being any religion, and oranges being any sort of logic.
Im basing my points off of logic, which religions just are not.
So I'm not going to see what you believe(its like telling charles manson, or hitler they were wrong. when really there beliefs were so strong they were willing to do whatever it took to get the other side to believe them.), and so you wont hear my logic.
which brings to my point that beliefs are the most dangerous thing we face.
Logic tells me theres no smurfs. But i believe they exsist so much, im willing to refute any solid evidence that there isnt.
I dont like blind devotion. Question everything!
strength comes from within, not an outside source!
What "solid evidence" do you have refuting the existence of smurfs? On the contrary, you simply have no solid evidence proving that they DO exist. There's a BIG difference.
Do you not question your origin? Wonder where you come from? If so, ANY "conclusion" you settle on REQUIRES blind devotion. Whether it be God or evolution, there are questions and it seems that both sides tend to laugh at/belittle the other for their beliefs. Personally, when I force myself to be TOTALLY objective, they're both bordering on ridiculous; however when I realize that I am as insignificant in the universe as I am, it makes faith in a higher power feasible.
Shhh, that is exactly the point I tried to make several posts back. We ALL have faith that our positions are correct, because the creation of all cannot be proven beyond doubt.
I have actually studied this subject extensively. I do not have blind faith. I have faith based on the evidence presented by scholars on both sides of the argument. I have read Dawkins, and I have read CS Louis. The bottom line is that the questions presented have evidence on both sides of the equation. To me though, the evidence of a God is to great to pretend it is merely chance.
A quick analogy for you.
Two friends share a room, one friend comes in after a hard days work and greets the other. The one that was at home says, "Hey, Come here and check this out" he proceeds to show him a closet that contains one of those scale models of the milky way, each of the planets on a nice little string orbiting the sun. The other roommate, replies "Cool, where did that come from" The first roommate responds "I do not know, it just showed up in here" To which the hard working roommate replied "Things do not just show up out of thin air...SOMEBODY put it there."
To which the lazy roommate replied..."exactly".
My solid evidence, is that there is no magic in this world. and we all know smurf's are magical.
really thats my point is there is no proof one way or the other, if you dont want to see something, you wont. so for me to try to talk you outta there being a god or higher power is futile. The same goes my way, as well. until theres some proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
But really if there is a "being" that is in control of all that is happening, why does all this crap go on. Oh I know its a test.
i want this mystical being to part the heavens, and let us all know they\it exsist's. Let us know what is right or wrong. Tell what the right religion is. Instead of letting all these easily swayed people, use these gods names to do what they want. (which usually involves killing people and gaining riches)I dont need people or religions, or anything telling me what is right and what is wrong. This is my exsistence to choose to do with as I please, not others.
Hey i cant argue that any body has all the anwsers. If they did would you really want them? half the fun is getting there!
I have to ask, where did your analogy come from? sounds like somthing religous people would say. I see words like "hard working guy," the "Lazy roommate," and "SOMEBODY put it there"
Why are you stigmatizing hard working and lazy people? People are just people. just because one guy works harder doesnt make one better then the other.
"SOMEBODY put it there?" really? why can't it just be? enjoy it! theres a universe in your damn closet.
What is your evidence of no magic? And who says smurfs are magical? I thought they had more to do with bad "trips" than magic.
Do you have children? If so, do you always stand over them and tell them how to do each and every thing or do you stand back and let them make their own choices?
Sorry, I don't want a god that forces me to worship him (there's enough of that in the current election). I prefer to have a choice to read, research, and reason my way to a decision.
And that brings us full circle, doesn't it? When everyone does as they please, anarchy is sure to follow, hence the need for a moral compass.
Good discussions all the way around. I have really enjoyed it and to be honest, this has been a lot more fun since I've recently started questioning my faith so it is a lot easier for me to approach this is bit more objectively. However, I think we can all say why they say never discuss religion or politics.
R
Rifanil
Guest
Just an observation, but at some level don't we all follow our religion (or whatever philosophy guides us as individuals) because it pleases us?
yes follow what you want. most of my points may have been lost in sarcasm, im an a-hole.
No i dont have children. i dont want to tell others how to run there lives. i can barely manage my own!
morels and anarchy can exist in the same place.
No i dont have children. i dont want to tell others how to run there lives. i can barely manage my own!
morels and anarchy can exist in the same place.
Ok, now that is funny. I actually laughed out loud.
And the hard working man versus the lazy man was simply a writers tool to help you understand the subjects in the story. You could easily flip the two adjectives and have the same point made.
"morels and anarchy can exist in the same place."
Oh man...i don't even want to touch this one...
Good discussion ,and frankly good fun. Cya all in game...
Aye, probably the most civil religion discussion ever.
Well if you get mad over what someone believes, or doesnt believe, you have a big problem.
T
Teiwaz
Guest
Whew! Just read every post on this thread.
Points that weren't touched on or fully touched on are...
(1) The Bible isn't a rule book that a Christian has to follow ,but if he/she is a true Christian they will want/choose to follow it. (no one holds a gun to our heads)
(2) If one messes up an experiment they tend to scrap-it and start over ,but God sent his son to save us if we only ask ,in otherwords God didn't scrap his creation 'cause if failed ,he wants us all to be saved.
(3) Religion encompisses{sp?} anything one puts faith/creadance in and Christianity is only one type of a Religion ,so Religion in of itself doesn't define Christianity properly.
(4) God gave us "free will" and that means we are all responsible for our actions (reap what we sow) and he isn't the 'cause of our woes (Pandora's Box) and yes Jesus said ...even bad things happen to good people... ,by studying the word (Holy Bible) we come closer to God and Jesus and they shall be there for us if we but call on them.
(5) I'm not knocking anyones belief 'cause they aren't mine ,if you don't see it as I do ,fine ,no skin off my back ,I can't/wont force you too ,but if my words help to "guide" even one to "salvation" then glory be to God!
(6) I'm not perfect as no one is ,but anyone can strive to be a better "human" regardless of what "faith" they follow (yes Science is a "faith" too) and one can say they have no "guide book" to tell them what to do ,but if you "believe" in anything at all then there is your "guide book".
(7) I don't fear death or "hell" as a means to be a Christian ,My personal belief is that the "hell" God & Jesus speaks of is "non-existence" the total absence from God ,in otherwords lost forever (not remembered).
(8) I'm still on my journey to be a better Christian and always will until that glorious day.
Points that weren't touched on or fully touched on are...
(1) The Bible isn't a rule book that a Christian has to follow ,but if he/she is a true Christian they will want/choose to follow it. (no one holds a gun to our heads)
(2) If one messes up an experiment they tend to scrap-it and start over ,but God sent his son to save us if we only ask ,in otherwords God didn't scrap his creation 'cause if failed ,he wants us all to be saved.
(3) Religion encompisses{sp?} anything one puts faith/creadance in and Christianity is only one type of a Religion ,so Religion in of itself doesn't define Christianity properly.
(4) God gave us "free will" and that means we are all responsible for our actions (reap what we sow) and he isn't the 'cause of our woes (Pandora's Box) and yes Jesus said ...even bad things happen to good people... ,by studying the word (Holy Bible) we come closer to God and Jesus and they shall be there for us if we but call on them.
(5) I'm not knocking anyones belief 'cause they aren't mine ,if you don't see it as I do ,fine ,no skin off my back ,I can't/wont force you too ,but if my words help to "guide" even one to "salvation" then glory be to God!
(6) I'm not perfect as no one is ,but anyone can strive to be a better "human" regardless of what "faith" they follow (yes Science is a "faith" too) and one can say they have no "guide book" to tell them what to do ,but if you "believe" in anything at all then there is your "guide book".
(7) I don't fear death or "hell" as a means to be a Christian ,My personal belief is that the "hell" God & Jesus speaks of is "non-existence" the total absence from God ,in otherwords lost forever (not remembered).
(8) I'm still on my journey to be a better Christian and always will until that glorious day.
Whew! Just read every post on this thread.
Points that weren't touched on or fully touched on are...
(1) The Bible isn't a rule book that a Christian has to follow ,but if he/she is a true Christian they will want/choose to follow it. (no one holds a gun to our heads)
(2) If one messes up an experiment they tend to scrap-it and start over ,but God sent his son to save us if we only ask ,in otherwords God didn't scrap his creation 'cause if failed ,he wants us all to be saved.
(3) Religion encompisses{sp?} anything one puts faith/creadance in and Christianity is only one type of a Religion ,so Religion in of itself doesn't define Christianity properly.
(4) God gave us "free will" and that means we are all responsible for our actions (reap what we sow) and he isn't the 'cause of our woes (Pandora's Box) and yes Jesus said ...even bad things happen to good people... ,by studying the word (Holy Bible) we come closer to God and Jesus and they shall be there for us if we but call on them.
(5) I'm not knocking anyones belief 'cause they aren't mine ,if you don't see it as I do ,fine ,no skin off my back ,I can't/wont force you too ,but if my words help to "guide" even one to "salvation" then glory be to God!
(6) I'm not perfect as no one is ,but anyone can strive to be a better "human" regardless of what "faith" they follow (yes Science is a "faith" too) and one can say they have no "guide book" to tell them what to do ,but if you "believe" in anything at all then there is your "guide book".
(7) I don't fear death or "hell" as a means to be a Christian ,My personal belief is that the "hell" God & Jesus speaks of is "non-existence" the total absence from God ,in otherwords lost forever (not remembered).
(8) I'm still on my journey to be a better Christian and always will until that glorious day.
nicely laid out.
For the record, I dont think science has all the anwsers either. Things have always been learned at a later date that changes ones views. the important thing is are you able to change that view?
I had a post in this thread and deleted it earlier on. I wanted to see where this thread would end up going.
If humans think of God as a dictator, instead of a parent figure, they oft get strange concepts of God. In my original post I mentioned that we all were given a free will to make our decisions through out our lives. We may decide things incorrectly, or not thru assorted reasonings or lack there of.
The real story behind the Bible is a story about a *father* or parent figure whom loves his children. But all children need bringing up ..in some form or fashion to hopefully become .............. decent loving useful adults that can function with their own self and others. Hense those 10 commandmants.
They are not to set the fear of hell onto us ............ there are consequences for our actions. Thou shall not lie ....ie cheat screw over others tell tall tales cuz in the end it hurts or harms others and in the end also may come back upon us like our own plague...no one then finds any ability to trust in a liar...............*sights the big banks bankers fed. reserve and the financial mess USA is in NOW.......some one lied cheated did what only pleased them...screwing over others...making debts they knew others could not pay off..make more phoney money to cover the mess...trillions of dollars in the hole ....nation wide globewide cuz ........someone screwin over someone else either in financial deals cheating or self interest self self self...ends up screwing over EVERYONE............cheating lying even in a game ruins game economy..mirrors cheating in rl banking lending institutions taxes or marriages.....thou shall not lie.................simple silly concept to wit a father says.....if ya go that route ya may end up hurting others and in the final analysis hurting harming NATIONS of people..if ya go too far and in the end........YOU end up hurt too.
There is a reason for those 10 simple commandments.......a parent figure trying to inform their kids please do not go down that route...it harms !! It will harm you it will harm others. Thou shall not kill thou shall not lie, thou shall not commit adultery...etc. etc.
We whom have kids may say ........please do NOT do drugs...it may harm you or others do not drink and drive it may kill someone or yourself in an accident...will our kids listen ?????????????????????? God asks us the same questions will we listen ???
Yet he gave us all a free will, God is a father not a dictator and to prove his love he being sinless unlike real human parents, offered us a sacrafice...someone that gave up everything even his life for US to simply say yeh.........I believe in that kind of LOVE and sacrafice..that kind of forgiveness offered to us, and if I can remotely even live a bit like he did..........maybe the world will be a better place............Jesus is NOT a religion religions are made by MAN..........Jesus is FAITH that a father GOD would give us a way .............a truth...... a shining light of an example of how damn hard it is to be GOOD..............to try to love one another that much to even give up our selfishness................for others ! Most of us fail to be remotely like the person called Jesus.............but he is an example of LOVE...............and God set him here to show us the way to try to live.......as we as parents also try by our examples to try to live with LOVE we would give our lives up for our kids to .........survive.......but God says we can love even MORE........could we give up our selfishness to extend love to our enemy someone of a different race creed religion or social status ? probably NOT..................... That book called the BIBLE is a story about a father trying to show his children how deep love should go.......how deep forgiveness should go.......how 10 silly simple commandments can lead to global international financial bailouts from some few even...simply opting to lie or cheat or think of SELF more than ..............love or kindness etc. or others. And yet in the end HELL may be more the hell on earth we all cause or create.........because we were too selfish to think NOT to lie cheat steal kill etc. even if there seem to be just reasons..............one humans reasoning may negate another ........ie religious persecutions killed thousands over the centuries from burning "witches" in salem to christians and moslems and jewish folks all harming killing the others for not beliving *the same way* like religion MAN wanted them to believe.........religion is NOT faith..it is made by US........humankind.......for some it is just there for commaradary but for others it is KILL everyone that is not of our way of thinking or beliveing ...which is WRONG........or God would have just created us all with dictator made brainless non free will to all be cookie cutter copies of everyone else's thinking or beliefs. No he created us to have a free will hoping we hear the greater message.............LOVE ye one another.........I sent you an example ???? my own son................can you live up to even trying to love or forgive one another..........as he did ?
And yeh most of us fail.................trying to be that loving or forgiving or objective of our fellow mankind............. and that is millions of us that fail to be that decent. Hell can be something some fear AFTER death but if ya look at the history of humankind we MAKE hell right here cuz we still do not GET IT..and our father still is trying to get us to get it to get the message......... LOVE YE ONE ANOTHER !
If humans think of God as a dictator, instead of a parent figure, they oft get strange concepts of God. In my original post I mentioned that we all were given a free will to make our decisions through out our lives. We may decide things incorrectly, or not thru assorted reasonings or lack there of.
The real story behind the Bible is a story about a *father* or parent figure whom loves his children. But all children need bringing up ..in some form or fashion to hopefully become .............. decent loving useful adults that can function with their own self and others. Hense those 10 commandmants.
They are not to set the fear of hell onto us ............ there are consequences for our actions. Thou shall not lie ....ie cheat screw over others tell tall tales cuz in the end it hurts or harms others and in the end also may come back upon us like our own plague...no one then finds any ability to trust in a liar...............*sights the big banks bankers fed. reserve and the financial mess USA is in NOW.......some one lied cheated did what only pleased them...screwing over others...making debts they knew others could not pay off..make more phoney money to cover the mess...trillions of dollars in the hole ....nation wide globewide cuz ........someone screwin over someone else either in financial deals cheating or self interest self self self...ends up screwing over EVERYONE............cheating lying even in a game ruins game economy..mirrors cheating in rl banking lending institutions taxes or marriages.....thou shall not lie.................simple silly concept to wit a father says.....if ya go that route ya may end up hurting others and in the final analysis hurting harming NATIONS of people..if ya go too far and in the end........YOU end up hurt too.
There is a reason for those 10 simple commandments.......a parent figure trying to inform their kids please do not go down that route...it harms !! It will harm you it will harm others. Thou shall not kill thou shall not lie, thou shall not commit adultery...etc. etc.
We whom have kids may say ........please do NOT do drugs...it may harm you or others do not drink and drive it may kill someone or yourself in an accident...will our kids listen ?????????????????????? God asks us the same questions will we listen ???
Yet he gave us all a free will, God is a father not a dictator and to prove his love he being sinless unlike real human parents, offered us a sacrafice...someone that gave up everything even his life for US to simply say yeh.........I believe in that kind of LOVE and sacrafice..that kind of forgiveness offered to us, and if I can remotely even live a bit like he did..........maybe the world will be a better place............Jesus is NOT a religion religions are made by MAN..........Jesus is FAITH that a father GOD would give us a way .............a truth...... a shining light of an example of how damn hard it is to be GOOD..............to try to love one another that much to even give up our selfishness................for others ! Most of us fail to be remotely like the person called Jesus.............but he is an example of LOVE...............and God set him here to show us the way to try to live.......as we as parents also try by our examples to try to live with LOVE we would give our lives up for our kids to .........survive.......but God says we can love even MORE........could we give up our selfishness to extend love to our enemy someone of a different race creed religion or social status ? probably NOT..................... That book called the BIBLE is a story about a father trying to show his children how deep love should go.......how deep forgiveness should go.......how 10 silly simple commandments can lead to global international financial bailouts from some few even...simply opting to lie or cheat or think of SELF more than ..............love or kindness etc. or others. And yet in the end HELL may be more the hell on earth we all cause or create.........because we were too selfish to think NOT to lie cheat steal kill etc. even if there seem to be just reasons..............one humans reasoning may negate another ........ie religious persecutions killed thousands over the centuries from burning "witches" in salem to christians and moslems and jewish folks all harming killing the others for not beliving *the same way* like religion MAN wanted them to believe.........religion is NOT faith..it is made by US........humankind.......for some it is just there for commaradary but for others it is KILL everyone that is not of our way of thinking or beliveing ...which is WRONG........or God would have just created us all with dictator made brainless non free will to all be cookie cutter copies of everyone else's thinking or beliefs. No he created us to have a free will hoping we hear the greater message.............LOVE ye one another.........I sent you an example ???? my own son................can you live up to even trying to love or forgive one another..........as he did ?
And yeh most of us fail.................trying to be that loving or forgiving or objective of our fellow mankind............. and that is millions of us that fail to be that decent. Hell can be something some fear AFTER death but if ya look at the history of humankind we MAKE hell right here cuz we still do not GET IT..and our father still is trying to get us to get it to get the message......... LOVE YE ONE ANOTHER !
God isnt the problem, man is!
if there was some tangible proof, id say yeah the dude\dudet has a point.
Unfortunately there is no proof of god. (for me) it has been made up by man. the books were written by man. the laws and decrees have been "heard" by a man or women. then written down.
I know everyone played the game were people say something then pass it down a line, and at the end you see if the truth remained, or was changed.
lets face it people have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. So how can I believe what they say. No offense but religious people have been shown to be just as big of liars as everyone else!
.....except me im always honest...................................................
if there was some tangible proof, id say yeah the dude\dudet has a point.
Unfortunately there is no proof of god. (for me) it has been made up by man. the books were written by man. the laws and decrees have been "heard" by a man or women. then written down.
I know everyone played the game were people say something then pass it down a line, and at the end you see if the truth remained, or was changed.
lets face it people have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. So how can I believe what they say. No offense but religious people have been shown to be just as big of liars as everyone else!
.....except me im always honest...................................................
Exactly! That's because we are all imperfect. There are bad people who hide behind religion, that's why it's up to you to come to your own conclusion and not base it on what others tell you. This world would be a LOT better place if people actually did that.
T
Teiwaz
Guest
All excellent points and QueenZen's lengthy cry for everyone to just Love one another really got me, God bless her and everyone else.
Shhh's statement was also dead on in that we should focus on finding common ground instead of pointing out all the fault's.
If we as humans would only offer forgiveness instead of vengeance, then the need to justify ones actions would be lost to the winds.
People talk about "their" rights, but most don't even consider "others" rights at all.
"If you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all" is a very hard thing to do for us humans, but not impossible.
Shhh's statement was also dead on in that we should focus on finding common ground instead of pointing out all the fault's.
If we as humans would only offer forgiveness instead of vengeance, then the need to justify ones actions would be lost to the winds.
People talk about "their" rights, but most don't even consider "others" rights at all.
"If you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all" is a very hard thing to do for us humans, but not impossible.
K
KVJ
Guest
Did you enjoy the video though? I thought it was amazing how these Bonobo Monkeys show very similar human characteristics. This video is solid evidence, that we derived from monkeys, if you like it or not.The entire "theory" of evolution is disproved by just studying bacteria, which according to evolution, was the simplest of life forms.