Religulous

[Pestilence Hemp]

Just went and saw it. damn funny. I haven't laughed that hard in awhile.

also scares me that these people have positions of power.

 

[kelmo]

Go see the other one too. What's the name? It pokes fun of that silly fat man.

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

yeah looks good as well. The W movie about bush, and the goon squad looking funny.

 

[KVJ]

yeah looks good as well. The W movie about bush, and the goon squad looking funny.

If you liked that movie,

I recommend buying Bill Maher's DVD collection when they come out if not already. Seriously that show is great and have a lot influential guests on his show. Including Ron Paul who should of been our president. Now we have to suffer.

Stupid media, so sad many Americans only follow Fox & CNN news.

 

[Mogluk]

I just think its sad that sportscenter type blurbs is about the most a person investigates our deocratic system.

I am a religous orc, not sure if Bill Maher's latest attempt will offend me or make me laugh, but he tends to go overboard with his anti religous rants. But he is funny and a very good writer.

I am hoping to see W and An American Carol this next week. As much as we can say we all think he is moron, Bush has done something no sitting president has done (okay a few really) and thast to have a movie about him while still in office. not sure if its a good thing or not.

 

[Amanda Shade]

I won't be seeing it...pretty sure it would offend me

I do plan to see an American Carol though.

BTW, watching CNN and Fox News is a pretty diverse selection. CNN is way to the left an Fox News is more center right

I KNOW you all will respond with "DUDE - Fox is as far right as you can get!."
If that was so, how do you explain Allan Combs, and on some issues Bill O'Reilly?

but, back to the main topic...this movie will not be on my must see list.

 

[Turtle]

I saw Bill on The Daily Show promoting the movie. I can't wait to see it. He didn't attack people's beliefs but the fact that some people actually believe the literal version of some religions. Like Noah's Arc literally happened, those people are what scares him and me. Anyone that lives in 2008 and can't understand that these things didn't literally happen are very scary individuals to have in power. Like Palin. She doesn't believe Dinosaurs roamed the Earth but she believes a man put one of each animal on a boat and sailed around....Super, here's a Maverick idea, start living in 2008 not 208.

 

[Hef]

Agreed!

 

[Mogluk]

well I do believe that it happened.....but what does it matter? I can't have a for sure knowledge that it happened, its just a belief.

now you guys, don't start harping on it to much. You can disagree with a persons beliefes, but don't belittle a person who does believe in something. Christians don't corner the market on hard to believe doctrines. People of all sorts have soem bizarre beliefs by our standards. but we have to accept them. the moment you begin to belittle them and reject them for their beliefs then your a bigot. just agree to disagree.....

 

[Turtle]

Well Mo I think it would be very educational for you to watch this Movie. Its not a movie to attack someone who believes in a specific religion, instead he is exploring the exact statement you made..
"I can't have a for sure knowledge that it happened, its just a belief."
He also address the fact that people actually know very little about their own religion but get very offended when someone challenges it.

For me I don't have a particular faith that I follow and I have no problem with someone who does. However, I don't feel it should be part of our Political process as I don't feel it makes a candidate better or worse at their job.

Again I don't care what someone believes in its their choice but for me I find it hard to take any religion seriously and thats also my choice to make. To me its hard to believe a book that was written when people didn't know where the Sun went at night or why water fell from the sky. When "doctors" would drain blood from people who had a cold to rid them of illness because we had no knowledge of microscopic creatures. I like to think I know a little more about this planet then someone who wrote a book thousands of years ago but I wasn't there, or was I? So I can only speculate and to ME it just makes more sense that none of these things any religion believes really happened.

Maybe its easier for someone like me to watch this movie because I'm not offended when someone questions a religion but I would think someone that actually has Faith would be comfortable enough with their own Faith to not be offended by others choices and questions. I always find it interesting to hear others opinions on things I don't completely understand but it seems usually people of Faith will say its offensive instead of saying its interesting to hear that opinion when both sides don't understand completely the same questions. Like you said Mo, "you can't have a for sure knowledge" so you question it to some extend. It shouldn't be offensive for someone outside any religion to question something the people of that religion do.
If your offended that someone questions your religion then you should be offended at the person in the mirror because not only do you question all other religions but you also have questions about your own.
Obviously you can go above and beyond the questioning and go to the exteme of saying thats stupid or dumb or some other ignorant statement but I don't think that is what this movie is about nor what I'm trying to explain. It's a grey area and its hard not to cross into that extreme side when people are so emotionally attached to their religion as they immediately become defensive like its an attack when its just simple questions.

 

[Amanda Shade]

Well thought out post turtle...I have to comment on just a couple your statements though.

"For me I don't have a particular faith that I follow and I have no problem with someone who does. However, I don't feel it should be part of our Political process as I don't feel it makes a candidate better or worse at their job."


I could not disagree with this more. It is my opinion that one of the fundamental flaws with todays society is the lack of a moral compass, some would call it a moral foundation. The relativism that permiates society at large today, in my opinion is a huge factor in the downward spiral of our moral and spritual values and education. Only by having a source truth and morality can one avoid relativism. You do not believe in the bible; and that is ok, you do not have to. But for me, this book is the one foundation for moral truth and a candidate that believes in the moral truths found in that book will be more likely to lead our nation in a way that I will find agreeable than somebody that does not have the same foundation.


"I like to think I know a little more about this planet then someone who wrote a book thousands of years ago but I wasn't there"

The people that lived 200 years ago thought they were pretty enlightened as well. Only when we die will we all discover beyond any shadow of a doubt what is true. That is where faith comes into play. I have faith in God as described in the Bible, you have faith in the scientists of today and the evidence they present for their case. All opinions need faith. The scientific method can only go so far as to describe things that subject themselves to the method. Attempting to prove things not provable is foolishness, and requires faith no matter which position you take.

"...always find it interesting to hear others opinions on things I don't completely understand but it seems usually people of Faith will say its offensive instead of saying its interesting to hear that opinion when both sides don't understand completely the same questions. Like you said Mo, "you can't have a for sure knowledge" so you question it to some extend. It shouldn't be offensive for someone outside any religion to question something the people of that religion do."

This one I enjoy. Do you think as an Evangelical Christian that I have any problem finding people that disagree with my point of view and having a "spirited" discussion of such views? The media, society, and most of the people I interact with every single day of my life are not believers in the Christ of the Bible, and I have AMPLE opportunity to express my viewpoints and to hear theirs. What I do not subject myself to are forms of media specifically targeted at denegrating my belief system, or those conversations from people that specifically target my faith as a tool for belittling those who believe. I am more than willing to discuss all aspects of my belief in Christ, but only to those who want an actual discussion...not to those who want to belittle. This movie and others like it are designed to throw the Christians out as cannon fodder for those who do not believe. The makers of this movie have no interest in an intellectual discussion, and therefore I have no interest in supporting their movie with my money.

One question before I sign off: Did you go see the movie by Ben Stein, Expelled?

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

Yeah the movie wasnt an attack.
He was askin very valid questions. its just when people couldnt answer them, logically, they would get flustered and mad at him.
but again he ask questions of every faith not just one or the other.

 

[Dopa Mine]

If you liked this one, go see the Ben Stein movie about intelligent design. Its the other side of the coin.

 

[Mogluk]

well they would be wrong when they attacked him. the basis of religon is a separation from normal "logic". The idea of a great creator, Allah, God, Elohim, Jesus Christ is one based upon faith with little to no factual basis. Some faiths point to metaphysical experiences to support their faith. But the foundation of all religons are based upon Faith "evidence of things not seen". We have several experiences and events taht happen in our history, taht we can point to as miracles,visitations, visions or what not but ultimately its all about faith rather than proof.

I think Maher's largest problem is taht he thinks Religon is a sham and so he attempts to undermine it, to attack it with logic, but y its nature religon is not meant to be founded upon logic. Most religons are founded upon the basis of an greater power that we don't see but we feel his/her effects on this world we call earth.

Logic has very little basis in the arguemet of religon. I totally agree with Amanda aout a moral compass being lost in the world, we live in a society that believes or lives in a anner taht anything is okay but lets keep God out of the mix. which is all well and Good except atht many of our basic beliefs were built from judeo christian beliefs.

I would say that I that I am for keeping religons out of Gov't. But Our Gov't is the best in the world because it was based upon conservative christian beliefs of the 1700's. Now 300 years later we want to throw that away and completely divorce ourselves from religon and faith. that Moral Relativism has contributed to many of the financial and societal woes we are seeing these days. I look at socialism as "Man's means to replace religous community". I come from a faith that is founded on the fact taht we suport each other and help each other make our lives better. I think that much of what the Gov't is attempting to do these days, is to replace what church and comunity has performed for the last 200 hundred years.

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

Actually mahr put it pretty good, its not he does not believe, its that he doubts. (i may have quoted this wrong, but its in the movie)



....and you can have morels and not believe in god, a god, thee god.

for me i just dont see any sign of a higher being(not to say there isnt somthing more out there). Alot of people are hopeing for some magical thing to happen in there life, and i find this world to be devoid of any magic. (unless your playing UO) beauties yes, wonders yes, possibilities yes, magic NO!

 

[Troll The T Hunter]

"I could not disagree with this more. It is my opinion that one of the fundamental flaws with todays society is the lack of a moral compass"

I'm agnostic. I believe you should treat others the way you would like to be treated. I'm not going to heaven or hell but while I'm on earth I would like to put a smile on someones face. I don't have to worry about being nice to people or I'll go to hell, I try to be nice to people while I'm alive without conditions. Just because I'm not religous does not mean I don't have a moral compass I think it's the opposite I "TRY" to be a good person just because, not because I'm worried about heaven or hell.

 

[Turtle]

But for me, this book is the one foundation for moral truth and a candidate that believes in the moral truths found in that book will be more likely to lead our nation in a way that I will find agreeable than somebody that does not have the same foundation.

This is one thing I see as a huge difference between people of Faith and those like myself. Those of Faith think for some reason anyone who doesn't practice under their religion somehow could never have better morals then themselves. I think we've had numerous occurances in history that show those of Faith are usually those that break traditional social morals so I find this arguement silly. One example is the child abuse in the Catholic church. Again just because your practicing a Faith doesn't automatically give you good moral judgement.

All opinions need faith.

Mine doesn't. My belief if those of Faith are only using it for comfort because they are scared of death. It's reassuring to think some greater being is going to greet you when you get hit by a bus. Although its a scary though for me that its lights out and its over I've come to accept that fact w/o the crutch. Doesn't make me a better person, just different.
Basically I don't have to have faith in anything because I don't believe in things I don't know are true.

I am more than willing to discuss all aspects of my belief in Christ, but only to those who want an actual discussion...not to those who want to belittle.

But my whole point was people of Faith are more likely to quickly jump to the belittle arena just because they are so emotionally attached to what they believe. Rarely have I ever met someone willing to discuss things that no one can prove. How do you make that argument?
I have a dog. Where is he? He's here. Where, I can't see him. I believe he is here. Ok... Its a difficult thing to discuss w/o going "belittle" and that was kinda what I was getting at.

This movie and others like it are designed to throw the Christians out as cannon fodder for those who do not believe. The makers of this movie have no interest in an intellectual discussion, and therefore I have no interest in supporting their movie with my money.

You haven't seen the movie. As someone mentioned its not about Christians but as I mentioned multiple times people of Faith automatically become defensive like they are being attacked. Bill is one of the more intellectual people of our time and whether you agree with the movie or not I would assume that if your willing to engadge in discussion about the questions surrounding all religions it would be something you would not only want to see but need to see.
If you automatically shun anything questioning religion how can you claim that your open to discussion because to me that obviously means no matter what evidence is provided to you that your religion is wrong or false (and I'm not saying it is, hypothetically speaking) then you will still have the Faith in it.

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

yeah what he said.......

 

[Troll The T Hunter]

Big D is a egotistical prick in my mind but I agree with his post. **** you big D for making me agree with you. again **** you.

 

[Mogluk]

I would never say that religion has the market cornered on Morals, but I will say that as a general rule Christians are moral people, but I think most people (over the age of 30) are. when it comes to the catholic church, you cant brush the whole church with those experiences.... just like we don't lump all homosexuals with the people who abuse young boys ..... or PETA people who spray fake blood on people. whenever we use examples lets make sure its CORRECT examples. there is a difference to discussion and the term " bible bashing". I am always up for a discussion. but there have to be ground rules on both sides. Religions have seen media and higher institutions focus on them as a source of our societal ills. when in fact I would say that its only since we have started becoming more secular that we have started to loose our societal morals.

 

[Troll The T Hunter]

odd that a non religous person as I actually cares about minimum wage for people with less then me, odd...

Your a mod here delete this if you please. I know that everyone knows you and no one knows Troll but I will not back down. Ask yourself why I care so much about minimum wage? Morals, sometimes a foreign concept to religous people with a book telling them what to do.

 

[Vortex]

I saw Bill on The Daily Show promoting the movie. I can't wait to see it. He didn't attack people's beliefs but the fact that some people actually believe the literal version of some religions. Like Noah's Arc literally happened, those people are what scares him and me. Anyone that lives in 2008 and can't understand that these things didn't literally happen are very scary individuals to have in power. Like Palin. She doesn't believe Dinosaurs roamed the Earth but she believes a man put one of each animal on a boat and sailed around....Super, here's a Maverick idea, start living in 2008 not 208.

It was two of every animal...you may breed asexually but most of us, including the animals, don't.

 

[Sweeney]

It was two of every animal...you may breed asexually but most of us, including the animals, don't.

inbreeding..

 

[Turtle]

Correct Mo. I wasn't lumping all Catholics with that act just making an example of how someone of Faith can be not so moral. Just like very few Muslims actually strap bombs on them and run into crowds. Muslims in general are a very peaceful religion.
I don't see how you associate a more secular society with less morals? Maybe you could give some example..
I think again I can point to the example I used before of the Catholic church to make that a silly statement.
To move away from that example I will say that in England an officals religion is not part of an election process infact its considered to be a personal choice and has nothing to do with the election process. I find that a much more secular society as a country and also a much more moral society as a whole. Religion in America does nothing but cause more problems then it does creating peace. I'm not going to get into those examples because I feel it would hit too many nerves on certain issues that each religion disagrees with as moral, like abortion or gay marriage. A secular society doesn't cause these problems, religion does but I'm interested to hear your examples.

 

[Troll The T Hunter]

Big D WTF I don't want to agree with anything you say but I must.

 

[Death of Hemp]

Wow, great thread! All good points too...I agree that religion has value as a moral compass. The social problem that religion helps to solve is how to convince people to abide by a commonly accepted definition of what is "good." If taken to literally however, religion can also lead to exactly what it helps to define as "evil."

If good and evil are generally accepted as relative, anarchy is the only possible outcome.

I HIGHLY recomend that anyone with any interest in Theology read a classic book, "The Tao of Poo." Seriously, if you're agnostic you should read this book.

 

[Mogluk]

I would say that the comment "Religion in America does nothing but cause more problems then it does creating peace." is patently false because it lumps all faiths and people of respective faiths in a bad light. I agree that there are some beliefs and leaders who cause more problems but to say that religion causes more problems is patently false. if you want to discuss less Morales....we could discuss crime rates, child crimes to be more specific, children growing up without fathers, preponderance of cheating in professional sports (long shot I know). But the first two are distinct results of a growing sense of selfishness and lack of personal direction within our society.

there are more but lets look at just those two. how do you explain and answer those two? what would you do to help increase families (or at least fatherly involvement) and decrease crimes committed by children? now I know that there is a host of reasons leading to these two examples, but religion is a key deterrent or preventer of both of these issues.

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

heh book of poo

 

[Turtle]

if you want to discuss less Morales....we could discuss crime rates, child crimes to be more specific, children growing up without fathers, preponderance of cheating in professional sports (long shot I know). But the first two are distinct results of a growing sense of selfishness and lack of personal direction within our society.

Child crimes, again Catholic church.
So what your saying is people who grow-up without a father have no morals? I won't even begin to challenge that ignorant statement.
Cheating in prof. sports has everything to do with the lack of regulation and drug testing by the league itself and nothing to do with the players "lack of religion". Or how about the fact that we had no idea what steroids could do to a persons body...knowledge is power, learning and understanding things we didn't in the past....sound familiar?
Speaking of selfishness how many stories do you hear about people stealing money from the church? At least 1 a week down here in the south, maybe less outside the bible belt but your argument is weak. Bring something stronger!

 

[Turtle]

Big D WTF I don't want to agree with anything you say but I must.

I'm sorry. Maybe your faith will allow you to forgive me?

 

[Mogluk]

apparently I didn't make my self clear.....

fatherless children are a sympton of less morals...... not that children growing up with out fathers dont have morals. That would be stupid although I would think taht having less male input would give the child less "tools" to live life more effectively.
my argument is weak? all youcan do is break down something thais trying to make peopel better, whats your answer? so religon is flawed, Man is flawed. Most religon is about the journey to make one's self better and through taht journey the world around us better.

what are you doing to make this world better?

 

[Mogluk]

dang I need a better spellcheck

 

[Turtle]

fatherless children are a sympton of less morals

I don't agree with that. That's an opinion from someone within a religion that only believes a family is a man, a woman and a child(s). I could easily make an argument that children with one parent are less moral because of the lack of sex education and/or poverty but I won't make a blanket statement like that. Many people in a position of poverty have no choice to break moral "rules of society". As a person steals a piece of bread his act of stealing is not because of a lack of morals but because he has not eatten for 2 weeks.

Most religon is about the journey to make one's self better and through taht journey the world around us better.

what are you doing to make this world better?

Making it better under your own beliefs? Frankly if I disagree with your religion so your making my world worse. Here's an extreme example:
A religion is pro-life and making the world better by spreading this ideology:
I'm a 14 yr old girl who is ****d by my father. Not only do I have to have the child by I have to have a child through incest and look at that child everyday for the rest of my life to be reminded of how that happened.

Obviously that is an extreme example but I wanted to prove the point but don't get me wrong I do understand that many many churches do wonderful things in society to improve it. But just because your doing something you think is good doesn't mean it is.


To answer your question I have no idea what I'm doing to make this world better, if anything. Maybe my kid will be the second coming of Christ or maybe I was put here to be the antichrist. I'm not concerned either way because I don't feel I need to answer to some Easterbunny in Wonderland when I die. I answer to myself.

 

[Amanda Shade]

Wow, this is fun.

Just a couple of questions to throw out there...

First, when you have a tough choice to make, what guides you to do the right thing? If you say whatever feels right, then what about the next time the right thing is actually something that would make you feel bad? That is when a moral compass grounded in a book like the bible can be the difference between your decision and the one that should be made. I would NEVER say that people that do not believe in a god could not make moral decisions..but what on earth would prompt you to make a decision that was moral if you didn't want to do it. I am sure it can be done, but somebody will need to tell me why? If all there is, is us and this earth why not live life for yourself and those you love. Screw everybody else...

Just a question...


Big D,
How was the earth and the universe made?

Does macro-evolution exist? (where one genus of animal turns into another, I am not talking about subtle changes that can be observed through adaptation)

Think about whether or not you can answer these truthfully and then tell me that it does not require some faith to support your position. Neither of these can be answered as 100% fact, because neither of them have been witnessed by anyone living or in recorded history, and neither of them can be reproduced. To take a position on either of these, or a myriad of other questions about our world around us requires us to look at the evidence, and then make a thoughtful decision about what we choose to believe.

And in response to your analogy of the 14 year old girl how had the child via an incestual ****. Wow, extreme example indeed. So let me address it with an extreme picture of my own. Imagine that child growing up to cure cancer, or aids. Or going forth to save 1000s of people from a burning building. God created the child, and as such the child is capable of great and wonderful things. The actions of the father were not the childs fault. And I am sure, as a father of 5 children of my own, that if the girl found it in her heart to forgive her life would be blessed by that child. Which life will have more meaing: the life of an unforgiving woman who aborted the only joy that could have come from a purely evil act, or a life that with the help of god to become a forgiving women that is blessed until the end of her days by her child and grandchildren.

Finally, I am really tired of people picking out the faults of well known Christians and pointing to them as examples of why religion, and Christianity specifically is a sham. There was only one perfect person to walk the earth (according to MY belief system) and that person died for the rest of us. Why did he die for the rest of us? Because we are ALL SCREWED UP to put it plainly. Each of us is born with a heart that desires to do what we should not do, and sometimes does not allow us to do that which should be done. None of you can truthfully answer that this is not the case. Myself especially included. This nature gets the best of us all at times, even those that call themselves Christian. Those Christians that have made grievous mistakes in this life, and have been brought to task for those very mistakes will face Christ some day and answer for their sins. Many will pay for their transgressions "as if by fire". Their failure, and ours, is not a reason to forego religion as a sham though...it is more of an opportunity to realize how corrupt each of us really are in our heart, and to realize how badly we will need to be forgiven if we ever hope to reach a holy creator, who by his very nature is intolerant of all sin.

This, is my belief system.

 

[Mogluk]

again your missing the point..... fatherless children are a SYMPTOM, go look it up. the underlying roblem is that men go have sex don't take prper precautions and thenhave a baby and leave the mother to raise a baby by themselves. That is a moral decison. nothing more nothing less. We can choose to do anything but we don't choose the consequences. Being "moral" is contemplating the consequences and making a choice to prevent or avoid consequences. I believe it goes a bit deeper but thats a start. would you steal if you KNEW you would go to jail?not if, but would no chances but you would...most people wouldn't, they attempt to circumvent consequence, they lie, they cheat they hide their actions. Whatever they can do to hide their choice so they don't have to suffer the consequences. Much of boils down to personal responsibility.

when you answer to yourself, you have nothing, your reactive if you change its because something happened to you. you got a speeding ticket so you drive slower.

I choose to do things because I was taught to look at the consequences by my religous upbringing, I also look at the idea that God know what I do so I can't hide anything from him.

would you act differently if you knew nothing you did was hidden? If you believed that everything you did was being recorded in "heaven" so that when you die you have to be judged of those actions?

I asked you about what you were doing because people who don't answer to anyone or anything aren't very proactive, I volunteer to coach soccer, I help out at old folks homes, I try to teach my children to be good Law abiding citizens. I work for aliving and pay my taxes happiliy ad if Idon't like my leaders I work to get them voted out of office. There is a process to all things, Religon has helped me to learn those things. Am I something special? No, But I a who I am because of religon, so its not such a bad thing.

I will whole heartedly agee that religon has done more Evil in the world taht any can imagine. But it has also done more good as well. It may be easy to say Religon is a mind altering means to subjigate the masses....but again we can always leave our cults, what do you do if you don't believe in anything? Life sucks then you die. then we will know who was right.....

 

[Zippididooda]

heh book of poo

you guys crack me up!

I have a copy of that book somewhere Death hehehe!

 

[Amanda Shade]

Darn, I missed this in my last response

Just because I'm not religous does not mean I don't have a moral compass I think it's the opposite I "TRY" to be a good person just because, not because I'm worried about heaven or hell.

Those "Christians" who use their religion as fire-insurance are seldom willing to sacrifice what Christ would have of us during this life. Being a Christian is not about walking an isle and saying a prayer..and then POOF! No more Hell! Yaahhh!

No, it is about being transformed into the likeness of Christ, a new creation. I do not do what I do to avoid going to hell. I do what I do because I have a loving God that was willing to die for me while I was yet a sinner. I owe him everything for what he has already done.

 

[Dola]

well they would be wrong when they attacked him. the basis of religon is a separation from normal "logic". The idea of a great creator, Allah, God, Elohim, Jesus Christ is one based upon faith with little to no factual basis. Some faiths point to metaphysical experiences to support their faith. But the foundation of all religons are based upon Faith "evidence of things not seen". We have several experiences and events taht happen in our history, taht we can point to as miracles,visitations, visions or what not but ultimately its all about faith rather than proof.

I think Maher's largest problem is taht he thinks Religon is a sham and so he attempts to undermine it, to attack it with logic, but y its nature religon is not meant to be founded upon logic. Most religons are founded upon the basis of an greater power that we don't see but we feel his/her effects on this world we call earth.

Logic has very little basis in the arguemet of religon. I totally agree with Amanda aout a moral compass being lost in the world, we live in a society that believes or lives in a anner taht anything is okay but lets keep God out of the mix. which is all well and Good except atht many of our basic beliefs were built from judeo christian beliefs.

I would say that I that I am for keeping religons out of Gov't. But Our Gov't is the best in the world because it was based upon conservative christian beliefs of the 1700's. Now 300 years later we want to throw that away and completely divorce ourselves from religon and faith. that Moral Relativism has contributed to many of the financial and societal woes we are seeing these days. I look at socialism as "Man's means to replace religous community". I come from a faith that is founded on the fact taht we suport each other and help each other make our lives better. I think that much of what the Gov't is attempting to do these days, is to replace what church and comunity has performed for the last 200 hundred years.

First the problem with basing more laws on religion, who's religion will it be,
Catholics, that require you to baptize your children to remove the stain of original sin? Fundamental Mormons who require men to have at least 3 wives to reach the highest level of heaven? Jehovah(sp?) Witnesses who don't celebrate holiday (i.e. Christmas) anything because its not in the bible? If you look the world over, the more religion is involved in gov't the more political unrest there is: Iraq, Isreal(sp?) People comdemn removing the the Ten Commandments from state buildings, etc but people fail to truly appreciate our gov't has stood for so long in large part because of the bill of rights which requires seperation of church and state.


Now the arguement that religion is based on faith which requires no logic is not entirely true. I am not Christian or Jewish or anything most people have ever heard of but I do believe in God and the belief is founded in logic. UU congregations, fellowships and churches around theworld, ask people not to leave their logic at the door when they come in, bring your beliefs and and your brain in, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

On another note later on from different posts: You can be a person of faith and still lack morals and you can be atheist and still be moral. Morality and Faith are not one in the same or based on each other in such away that the two are inheriently bound together. For example: We as society and societies around the world agree that stealing is wrong and bad. It's bad because it has a negative impact on the person or business being stolen from, plain and simple. Yes the ten commandments make it a sin to steal but stealing is looked at as wrong around the globe.



Goes back to sleep

 

[Turtle]

First, when you have a tough choice to make, what guides you to do the right thing?

How my parents raised me?

That is when a moral compass grounded in a book like the bible

I can pick out some other nice fiction books with lessons of life in them. Doesn't make the Gingerbread Man or Goldilocks real.

say that people that do not believe in a god could not make moral decisions..but what on earth would prompt you to make a decision that was moral if you didn't want to do it. I am sure it can be done, but somebody will need to tell me why? If all there is, is us and this earth why not live life for yourself and those you love. Screw everybody else...

I don't live my life for anyone else, its my life, not God's, not my wifes or my parents. I wouldn't go as far as to say screw everyone else because I am human so I have feelings, family and friends. I certainly don't need a God to worship to volunteer for the community either. There are many organizations setup for that exact purpose and have nothing to do with religion.

Big D,
How was the earth and the universe made?

Beats me, but I'm not going to believe a book that was written to explain it when people thought there was a God of the Sun, War, and Moon and thought the Earth was flat. For example I wouldn't read a book written 200 years ago to learn how to perform surgery, I'd want the most up to date version. We don't know everything about the Universe yet but I have seen some very interesting documentaries on Discovery that begin to explain Earths creation and it has nothing to do with a magical creature.

Does macro-evolution exist? (where one genus of animal turns into another, I am not talking about subtle changes that can be observed through adaptation)

I would say not really. Cross breeding exists though, why do you think we have so many variations of the dog, wolf, coyote? But to get back to humans...you can breed out any trait you want if you have enough time to do it(hundreds of years). A simple trait would be blonde hair but a better example to go back to your hint at apes turning into humans....the usual response I get is well then why aren't apes turning into humans today? Like its a 1 day event or something. My answer? Because were not banging them, thats why.

Think about whether or not you can answer these truthfully and then tell me that it does not require some faith to support your position.

The difference between us is this I think...you care if your position is right or not because your whole life is built around it. My life isn't built around whether a God created me or the Earth.

Imagine that child growing up to cure cancer, or aids. Or going forth to save 1000s of people from a burning building. God created the child, and as such the child is capable of great and wonderful things.

That would be an imagination indeed but you have a creative one. With your point of view on the world, God made Cancer, AIDS, ect. and then he made someone to cure it. I guess he has a better computer then me to control everything that goes on everyday in everyones life. Or was it that Devil that made Cancer, or the Antichrist or are they the same, or does the Devil work for the Antichrist? Can you even explain to me the difference between these two villians? Are they the villians or are they really just trying to rid the world of what God created? An infestation of humans ruining the Planet? Maybe God is actually the evil one.


The rest of your post was just preaching.

 

[Turtle]

again your missing the point..... fatherless children are a SYMPTOM, go look it up. the underlying roblem is that men go have sex don't take prper precautions and thenhave a baby and leave the mother to raise a baby by themselves.

No I think you are.
Takes two people to have sex (usually), but for your example yes..it does and hence they are BOTH responsible for taking precautions if they have no plans to have a child.
In my world the mother has a choice not to raise that baby, either by aborting it or putting it up for adoption. And don't just put it on the man like he is always the one to leave. The women usually don't get knocked up because they have a habit of keeping their legs together. The man could easily be left with the child after its born.

 

[kelmo]

Mod Note... As long as this remains respectful and thought provoking, it may remain. Carry on and be excellent to one another.

 

[Dola]

*did refresh and didn't see post got made*

darn double posts

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

Im impressed with how articulate, everyone is here. Any good to see many valid points on all sides.

 

[Mogluk]

turtle so your answer is have as much sex as youwant and if you "mess up", kill the fetus or pawn it off on someone else? I woudl say that its that thought process, a reactionary rather than a proactive one, that leads me to believe that we are less moral now than we use to. I think that we need to approach the ability to have children very seriously. More so than we do now, and if you look at the numbers, its by a large margin (just a guess but I would say over 90%) that the man heads for the hills if he knocks up the girl, rather than the guy ends up with the baby. Due to the woman is the one who gives birth the onus is on her to either care for the child or to find the father.

and NO CONTRACEPTION is 100% effective except for abstinence.

 

[Amanda Shade]

and NO CONTRACEPTION is 100% effective except for abstinence.

Hysterectomy


To Turtle,

"I don't live my life for anyone else, its my life, not God's, not my wifes or my parents. I wouldn't go as far as to say screw everyone else because I am human so I have feelings, family and friends."

So since it is your life and nobody elses, if you would find it beneficial to screw over one of your friends or family because it would benefit you to do so, you, assumably, would. I, if acting as I should, would not.


"The difference between us is this I think...you care if your position is right or not because your whole life is built around it. My life isn't built around whether a God created me or the Earth."

The other difference between us is that if I am right, you are screwed If I am wrong, then I have spent my life following a theology that taught love, forgiveness and rightousness. I suppose I will miss out on some "fun" things, but I can deal with that loss.

On your question of the anti-Christ, he is a tool of the devils that will be used in the end days. Some people believe that he will be the devil himself. I dunno...
I do not think the distinction between the two is important enough to find out which.

If you actually desire me to go into end times philosophy, and what the devils plan is, and what God's plan is, I would be happy to do so. I sensed some idle sarcasm though, so I do not wish to bore you with something you really do not care about.

All in all, this has been a great discussion. I enjoyed it much.

 

[Shh!]

First, when you have a tough choice to make, what guides you to do the right thing?

How my parents raised me?

And what if your parents were in the Klan? Cannibals? Bank robbers? Liberal democrats (I kid!)? My point is, each group would instill their children with different moral centers. There is no "instruction manual" to get them all on the same page. That's what the Bible is: a reference guide.

The US was founded on God and Christianity. The founding fathers knew that in order for our country to prosper, we all had to be on the same page. We had to have a common theme. That doesn't mean non-believers or those of other religions weren't welcome, on the contrary! All are welcome, regardless of their beliefs, if they agree to follow the Christian-based laws of this land.

It is my opinion that certain groups have intentionally and incrementally undermined these beliefs and values for a myriad of reasons. I also believe due to this erosion, our society has began (or nearly completed?) a descent into depravity. For example, the destruction of the nuclear family has directly led to increased poverty and crime among certain segments of our population. Is that not directly tied to an erosion of morals?

Never before in my relatively short life have I seen Christianity in such an open season, as it were. It's trendy and "chique" to take pot shots at God and Christ while belittling those who are so ridiculous to believe in the inspired Word of God (however, to speak ill of Islam is akin to a hate crime). I believe all of this stems from the moral relativism that exists today: there is no black and white, only different shades of gray and if you don't believe that, then you are a target.

 

[Turtle]

And what if your parents were in the Klan? Cannibals? Bank robbers? Liberal democrats (I kid!)? My point is, each group would instill their children with different moral centers. There is no "instruction manual" to get them all on the same page. That's what the Bible is: a reference guide.

Just like what if your parents weren't Christians and you were raised as a Muslim, chances are you'd be a Muslim in adult life. Wouldn't that suck since your reference guide would be in a different religion?

My point is I don't need a reference guide to lead a moral life. If you do then by all means follow that guide because I don't want you out murderering small children and stealing their candy because you didn't read a book.

 

[Turtle]

Hysterectomy


To Turtle,

"I don't live my life for anyone else, its my life, not God's, not my wifes or my parents. I wouldn't go as far as to say screw everyone else because I am human so I have feelings, family and friends."

So since it is your life and nobody elses, if you would find it beneficial to screw over one of your friends or family because it would benefit you to do so, you, assumably, would. I, if acting as I should, would not.

Those are your words, not mine. Why would anyone find it beneficial to screw over someone in the first place? As I mentioned above I don't need a book to tell me not to be an ass to my friends, family or even strangers. I have no idea why you think the world outside of religion is so bad, like we are murdering and raping people at will with no regard. Are you scared to walk outside your house?
Really, I promise we aren't bad people. No worse then people of religion who make mistakes.
I can do things for other people and feel good about it with nothing more then the reward of having that feeling w/o a religious background.

 

[Shh!]

Just like what if your parents weren't Christians and you were raised as a Muslim, chances are you'd be a Muslim in adult life. Wouldn't that suck since your reference guide would be in a different religion?

My point is I don't need a reference guide to lead a moral life. If you do then by all means follow that guide because I don't want you out murderering small children and stealing their candy because you didn't read a book.

What about those that do? My point is we DO have a moral reference guide. Our Constitution and our laws are all based in Judeo-Christian beliefs which, as an aside, I am so crass as to believe is a large reason as to the incredible success of this country. So, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, you have a reference guide. Everyone in the civilized world has SOME sort of reference guide, most based in some religion.

Oh, and my parents aren't Christian, they are agnostic. To be honest, I don't even know what I am. However, I am not foolish enough to discount the tremendous benefit that the Bible has as a moral reference guide and its importance in the founding and development of this nation.

 

[Elmer Fudd]

My point is I don't need a reference guide to lead a moral life. If you do then by all means follow that guide because I don't want you out murderering small children and stealing their candy because you didn't read a book.

I Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spritually discerned.