Raising skills on Production shards (not on Siege/Muegen)

[popps]

When raising skills on a production shard, 2 things that I know of are relevant to the gaining speed :

- Amount of total points on the character (the less total points the faster the gaining);

- The current level of skill points in that particular skill (the lower the skill, the faster the gains);

Now, that said, if the character training a given skill is wearing items that have points to that given skill, when using this particular skill the gains will still come even if, thanking to the skill items, the player reached the current CAP.

For example, say that the player has 70 real skill in Cooking, and the player is wearing a ring and bracelet with 15 cooking each and thus, reaches 100 cooking skill (current CAP).

If the player uses the cooking skill, the real skill will still move up from 70 even though the total skill is 100 thanking to the 30 points from the jewellery. This of course, if the skill is set with the arrow to go up and there is room for skill gains over the 720 points CAP.

The question that I want to ask, is whether the skill gains' rates, while wearing the jewellery, will gain considering the 70 "real" skill level or the 100 "total" skill level.

The difference can be significant as at a 70 level the rate for gains is quite increased as compared to 100.....

I tried finding specific informations on this but could not.

Anyone knows by any chance or has links to some official answer on it ?

Thank you very much.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Jewellery counts. People training Bushido on Siege need to start with ring/jewel combo because there is no spell they can cast to gain below 25.

Jewels are also used to get through gain 'walls'.

As a side note, I'd be interested in where you're going to find jewels to augment cooking skill

 

[popps]

Jewellery counts. People training Bushido on Siege need to start with ring/jewel combo because there is no spell they can cast to gain below 25.

Jewels are also used to get through gain 'walls'.

As a side note, I'd be interested in where you're going to find jewels to augment cooking skill

Well, as in regards to cooking, it was just an example, I guess they can be imbued, right ?

As in regards to items with skill points, I am aware that items carrying skill points can help cast given spells which at their real skill level would not be possible to be cast.

But my question, is more as in regards to the gaining "speed rate".

I will make another example to try explain my question better.

Say that I have a real skill of 40. At this low level, the gains are supposed to be quite fast. Certainly, faster than a level of, say, 100.

Now, let's imagine that I am able to find around pieces that give me an extra +60 points in that given skill.

Now, I have 40 (real) + 60 (items) = 100 points in that skill.

If I will be using that skill under this scenario, my skill gains rate will be looking at 40 (real level) or at 100 (total level) when it comes to deciding whether I am entitled to faster or slower skill speed gains ?

I hope I was able to explain my question better.

 

[Macrophage999]

10000 posts and you don't know that?

It will be looking at your total skill, to decide whether or not you'll have a gain. There is no general rules in terms of speed. If you train vs tentacles with 40 tactics you'll get no tactics gains but if you train with +30 from items you'll get plenty... IF you train magery with +30 from items then it will be drastically slower...

 

[popps]

10000 posts and you don't know that?

It will be looking at your total skill, to decide whether or not you'll have a gain. There is no general rules in terms of speed. If you train vs tentacles with 40 tactics you'll get no tactics gains but if you train with +30 from items you'll get plenty... IF you train magery with +30 from items then it will be drastically slower...

Thanks for the reply. I know about the tactics (and similar) issue but I really am not sure as in regards gains speed rate wearing skill items.

I mean, let's analyse this logical standpoint.

If a skill has a CAP of 100, this means that upon reaching 100 the player will no longer get gains, period. Right ?

Now, this said, let's look at my example above. Real skill is 40. With items the character reaches 100 (CAP).

Now, "if" the engine looked at the total points in that skill, being at 100 CAP (with items), the character should not get any gains. Nothing, nada.

Instead, we know that the character will get gains even when being at the CAP, increasing the "real" skill level.

So, I need to conclude logically, the engine does look at the "real" skill level rather than the "total" skill level otherwise, there would be no gains at the CAP. Right ?

But if the game engine looks at the "real" skill level to give gains, rather than the "total" skill level (with items), does this mean, as a consequence, that the "gain speed rate" will be also looking at the 40 real skill level rather than at the 100 total skill level thus providing a faster skill gain rate (40 is quite lower than 100...) ?

That's the kind of thinking I followed. I am not sure of what would be the correct answer, though.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Not exactly. Even at cap the game will check for gains occasionally. It's the reason you used to be able to control which title showed by keeping the chosen skill pointing up even though it was at cap. If you have room to gain, even though the items take you to cap, you will gain. However they will be 'invisible' gains in that you will not get an ingame message informing you that your skill has raised.

I really think you should spend some time studying the basics. If you had you would know that you can only imbue those skills for which there are power scrolls. There is no such thing as +cooking except from one special item, the basket of herbs.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Petra, stop feeding him and lock this thread now before he sucks you into an endless and pointless discussion about something that's WELL DOCUMENTED.

 

[Silverbird]

Actually there are no +skill items for all crafting skills with the exception of mining gloves, the ancient smithy hammers and maybe one or another haven quest reward for youngsters.

@popps: To answer your question, you probably will have to do some tests on your own. Like getting max skill items for a skill (hiding maybe) and be above 700 total skill points. Next to check for you is the rate at which you are getting GGS gains. And If there is a difference between wearing the skill items and not.

Other than that ... Pppl wearing + skill items usually do that for a purpose. Me for example: I have an advanced char token, that i want to use sometimes. It shall become a tamer and I will jewel up taming to 120 from the beginning. My main question for that is, how many kirins it will take to reach real 120. (At 120 kirins have optimal difficulty for gains ~60-70% success chance on taming.) Now I could put in your question and ask, if i would train it faster (with less tames), if i wouldnt use jewelry. But at 85 i cannot tame kirins and I probably wont get any gains on ice bears while i am jeweled up to 120. Ofc I could ask, if my GGS gains would be slower or faster, if I jewel up tame+vet+lore+magery but as i mentioned before: I guess you have to test that out on your own.

 

[Nexus]

Actually there are no +skill items for all crafting skills with the exception of mining gloves, the ancient smithy hammers and maybe one or another haven quest reward for youngsters.

More accurately there are no readily available +skill items for crafting...

Carpentry had the Woodworkers workbench for example and.........
Cooking has the Basket of Herbs from the old Spring Decor collection.


To be honest though Talisman accomplish much the same feat as +skill items, buy raising success chance you can try harder items and get better gains since many skills only gain on success..

 

[Amber Moon]

But if the game engine looks at the "real" skill level to give gains, rather than the "total" skill level (with items), does this mean, as a consequence, that the "gain speed rate" will be also looking at the 40 real skill level rather than at the 100 total skill level thus providing a faster skill gain rate (40 is quite lower than 100...) ?

That's the kind of thinking I followed. I am not sure of what would be the correct answer, though.

In my experience this is kinda true. You still gain at the real skill rate even if you 'jewel up'. It may be different for different skills though.

I have experienced this with taming for sure. I have tried taming with and without jewels, taming creatures at the appropriate level in each case (higher with the jewels on) and found the rate to be about the same regardless.

And if you think about this from a development perspective it makes perfect sense, because you will always gain at the rate of your real skill. Jewels will not enable you to gain any faster or slower for that matter.

 

[Willard]

I found that when training Disco above 70, I gained much better with Jewls on and at my adjusted cap. Perhaps I gained better because I suceeded more with my Discos with the jewls on that off. More successful skill attempts = more gains?

 

[ilot]

You forget the ask the real question, does it matther what is the moon phase and more importantly, is it calculated before or after you select the product you want to make, and does the actual wheater outside the server location affect the skillgain, for everyone or just for the person who is acutally using the skill, in that particular time zone?

What a waste of time. I really hope no dev will waste time on that useless question.

 

[popps]

Not exactly. Even at cap the game will check for gains occasionally. It's the reason you used to be able to control which title showed by keeping the chosen skill pointing up even though it was at cap. If you have room to gain, even though the items take you to cap, you will gain. However they will be 'invisible' gains in that you will not get an ingame message informing you that your skill has raised.

I am not sure about that.

I mean, if skill items push a character to the CAP for that given skill, and the game engine was looking at the total skill points regardless how the character got there (only real or a mix with skill items...), then there should be no gains, hidden or not.

I mean, if my real skill is 100, at CAP, I will get no gains. Period.

But if my skill is 40 real + 60 items = 100 CAP total, I still get gains, the hidden ones you mention.

To me, this shows that the game engine does not look at the total skill points to decide whether I am entitled to gains (because if it did it, would see 100, which is the CAP, and give me zero gains....). Rather, it looks at whatever my real points are, sees the 40, and therefore decides that I am entitled to gains and gives them to me (the hidden ones you were mentioning).

Now, this clarified, "if" the game engine is actually looking at the real points and not the total points, does this mean that also the skill gains' rate will be that of the real points (after all we just argued that the game engine looks at real points, not total...) ?

This is quite relevant to the discussion because clearly, the gains' speed rate at 40 is quite faster than at 100......

Logics tells me that the game engine should give the lower real skill faster gains rate, but I am trying to find some official words on it but not been able to so far.

So far it is only guessing and logical reasoning.

 

[popps]

What a waste of time. I really hope no dev will waste time on that useless question.

Skill gaining a waste of time ?

Hardly, IMHO.

Let's see, we got scripters, we got alacrity scrolls, we got scrolls of transcendence..

Enough to show me that skill gaining is a relevant issue in the game.

Now, my question relates to whether or not wearing skill items might slow down gains.

I would imagine, personally, given how much interest there seems to be in the game, one way or the other, about skill gaining, that discussing these issues is hardly a waste of time.

Especially, when I learn from the latest Developers' video mentions of new players and discussion of new ways to deal with them.

And what is most important to new players if not anything that might be skill gain related ?

Of course, others can well think differently as it is a matter of opinions.

 

[Gowron]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is really, but here goes.

If you're real skill is 40, as you stated, but you have jewels to achieve the 100 cap, you will still get gains.

However, the rate at which you get gains will not be at 40, but will be as if you were at 100 and were going towards 105, 110, 115, or 120. The jewels work as if real skill, but for the purposes of this discussion, think of it as a "soft cap" vice a "hard cap" of actual skill.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Ender]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is really, but here goes.

If you're real skill is 40, as you stated, but you have jewels to achieve the 100 cap, you will still get gains.

However, the rate at which you get gains will not be at 40, but will be as if you were at 100 and were going towards 105, 110, 115, or 120. The jewels work as if real skill, but for the purposes of this discussion, think of it as a "soft cap" vice a "hard cap" of actual skill.

It's not rocket science.

No, but it is Popps.

 

[popps]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is really, but here goes.

If you're real skill is 40, as you stated, but you have jewels to achieve the 100 cap, you will still get gains.

However, the rate at which you get gains will not be at 40, but will be as if you were at 100 and were going towards 105, 110, 115, or 120. The jewels work as if real skill, but for the purposes of this discussion, think of it as a "soft cap" vice a "hard cap" of actual skill.

It's not rocket science.

I am assuming a CAP of 100 so, it would make no sense that a skill CAPPED at 100 could experience gains "as if" it could go up to 105, 110, 115, 120. The bus stops at 100 and can't go any further, and the game knows it, so, it makes no sense, as I see it, to "assume" it would think about gains going "as if" it could further increase to 105, 110,115, 120. It cannot, there is a stop at 100, period.

How do you know that it works like that ??

I mean, is there like a reference from a Developer, some posted formula of how it works ?
Did anyone run sample valid tests of gain speed rates at a skill of 40, and then at a "total" skill of 100 but with only 40 as "real" skill and 60 as "item skill and produced data about the differences ?

The reason that it might matter to a new player in training, is that they can enjoy playing the game with a higher skill wearing skill items and thus setting their skills as higher whle in the meantime that they play and enjoy the game their gaining rates will not be affected by the artificially increased skill level........

Boost skill, enjoy playing the game with more skill BUT at the same time be still able to raise the real skill without a lowered gain rate.

This is why it would matter to some players, I guess.........

 

[Cirno]

This could be determined relatively easily on Test Centre, with either one person with two accounts, or two people with one account each.
Raise ninjitsu to 120 on each of the characters, and use cat/dog form for the health regen, and wrestling as the skill to be tested (it has low damage, so neither character should need armour to handle the damage).
Then, using imbuing and all the commands TC gives you, you can perform fairly exhaustive research on the subject over the course of hundreds or thousands of skill checks.

My thoughts on the matter are that you are drawing a connection between two elements of a system that may not be connected in that way.
My understanding of the system differs from yours. If you look at the use of Discordance to accelerate skill gain, it is functionally opposite of putting on +skill items. Your real skill stays the same (as it does with adding +skill items), and the skill that's displayed is modified (lowered), and the gains are awarded as per the lower displayed skill.

 

[Gowron]

I am assuming a CAP of 100 so, it would make no sense that a skill CAPPED at 100 could experience gains "as if" it could go up to 105, 110, 115, 120. The bus stops at 100 and can't go any further, and the game knows it, so, it makes no sense, as I see it, to "assume" it would think about gains going "as if" it could further increase to 105, 110,115, 120. It cannot, there is a stop at 100, period.

How do you know that it works like that ??

I know, because of what I observed during my own game play. Hence the reason I used the term "soft cap". If it were a "hard cap", there would be no gains at all.

I'm not sure why further discussion is needed on this topic. You've received the answer. Now when you run into one of those new players you like to talk about, you can impart this wisdom.

 

[Thav12]

i have no data, but:

using -29 skill items training magery makes it cheaper/less mana to gain skill, but skill gain rate is still dictated by real skill. only know this personally comparing 30-70 gain speed with and without. slows down tremendously with a -29 skill wep in hand going through the same range of skill gain. you still do it, as you can cast more, thus have more checks and thus more gains... this outweighs any other disadvantage by a mile at higher skill levels of course.

Popps was asking the inverse, but I suspect that he is right. Nevertheless it is completely irrelevant, as nobody would intentionally put skill jewels on to slow down their gain rate. if you have jewels on to use skill at higher level but still want to gain, you don't care about the rate....

 

[ChReuter]

Popps

Slow your roll...

That's all.

 

[Zosimus]

*Bangs head on desk*

Skills are skills. Gains are gains. There are so many easy way to gain now days with help of items, scrolls, and little tricks in the game. No hard cap is needed and skill gaining is working as intended.

Off topic...

Popps,

I want to play tic tac toe but I think the X's and O's are a major game issue. I truly think they should use @'s and &'s to make it easier for me to play For some strange reason they ( The Tic Tac Toe Gods) wont change it for me

 

[popps]

Am I the only one seeing contradictory opinions here ?

i have no data, but:

using -29 skill items training magery makes it cheaper/less mana to gain skill, but skill gain rate is still dictated by real skill. only know this personally comparing 30-70 gain speed with and without. slows down tremendously with a -29 skill wep in hand going through the same range of skill gain. you still do it, as you can cast more, thus have more checks and thus more gains... this outweighs any other disadvantage by a mile at higher skill levels of course.

My thoughts on the matter are that you are drawing a connection between two elements of a system that may not be connected in that way.
My understanding of the system differs from yours. If you look at the use of Discordance to accelerate skill gain, it is functionally opposite of putting on +skill items. Your real skill stays the same (as it does with adding +skill items), and the skill that's displayed is modified (lowered), and the gains are awarded as per the lower displayed skill.

We have opinions leading to considering the game engine as looking at the real skill in regards to gains' speed rate and we have discording opinions thinking that the game engine looks instead at the total (displayed) level of skill.

I was aware of differing opinions and that is why I posted the ogininal post of this thread, in the search of official informations be them Developers' posts, anything written in skill guides, whatever as long as it was something more official that personal feelings or personal opinions.

And to those who say that the question was answered, it has not because we are still here debating how it works.........

Some "think" it does one way, and some others "think" it does the opposite way and we are back to square one.....

Popps was asking the inverse, but I suspect that he is right. Nevertheless it is completely irrelevant, as nobody would intentionally put skill jewels on to slow down their gain rate. if you have jewels on to use skill at higher level but still want to gain, you don't care about the rate....

Not necessarily.

Skill items might help to get up to speed and play the game more comprehensively in a faster way but still, for a number of reasons like, for example, optimizing one's own template and suit, it would be still advisable to gain those skill points in a timely manner (that is why skill gain rate might still be of great interest to some players....) so to be able to remove those skill items and rearrange the suit in a more efficient and better way.

Until those skill points are learned, though, the suit cannot be "revamped", so to speak.....

 

[Gowron]

I was aware of differing opinions and that is why I posted the ogininal post of this thread, in the search of official informations be them Developers' posts, anything written in skill guides, whatever as long as it was something more official that personal feelings or personal opinions.

And to those who say that the question was answered, it has not because we are still here debating how it works.........

*slaps forehead* Heaven forbid I expected you to ask a question and accept the inputs rather than start a massive debate.

If you seriously want a response from a Dev, please post your question in the Ask the Dev section and roll the dice vice submitting us to the agony of your rationale.

 

[popps]

If you seriously want a response from a Dev, please post your question in the Ask the Dev section and roll the dice vice submitting us to the agony of your rationale.

Last time I "tried" that, it was well over a month now about a fishing quests related issue and I have yet to hear anything about it (the way that Forum works is one submits the question and then "if" and "when" the query is replied to, the post is posted)......

Besides, since this is something that goes back years (the skill gains rate issue), it "could" be that someone knew or remembered of something official in its regards of sometimes back.

That is, I "hoped" that there could already be something official about it even if old.