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C

Cloak&Dagger

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I have another question.


So is having 20k karma all you need to worry about getting when talking about Chivalry? Does the extra 10k when your at 30k Karma (20k+10k=30k) not improve your Chivalry spells anymore? I have not tested this since my guy is still at 20.1k Karma. I was wondering though at 30k has anyone been able to heal with Close Wounds for more then 40 at all?? I mean cause if Chivalry is going to be based upon your Karma level AND Chivalry skill. It should be based upon the Karma ALL the way to 30,000, not just stop at 20,000 and get no benefits after having more then that that. Since the cap on Karma IS 30,000 NOT 20,000. Another reason to make it so it heals for more then 40 if you have 30,000 Karma right there, incase it's not already doing it. 10k Karma is a huge leap to not have any kind of gain, Close Wounds should heal for more then 40 if you have 30,000 Karma.
O.K. this, maybe. The way I read Logrus' post though, the formula stops at 20k....I will have a look and see if I have any characters closer to 30k Karma and go test....
 

Dan123The123Man

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Cloak‡1984274 said:
O.K. this, maybe. The way I read Logrus' post though, the formula stops at 20k....I will have a look and see if I have any characters closer to 30k Karma and go test....
Yeah but it shouldn't stop at 20k, should it? I mean, what's the point in going all the way to 30,000 Karma if the formula stopped at 20,000.
 

Pinco

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Yeah but it shouldn't stop at 20k, should it? I mean, what's the point in going all the way to 30,000 Karma if the formula stopped at 20,000.
just to have something to spare in case you start to lose it accidentally (or not)... like killing dogs/cats/horses or good npcs
 
K

Kim Li of LS

Guest
The pet log fix seems concerning, sometimes logging is the only way I have to get my pets unstuck and moving again.

The lightning strike manna cost increase seems a bit to harsh, maybe 7 or 8 manna, basically removing LMC for the move.
 

puni666

Slightly Crazed
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The pet log fix seems concerning, sometimes logging is the only way I have to get my pets unstuck and moving again.

The lightning strike manna cost increase seems a bit to harsh, maybe 7 or 8 manna, basically removing LMC for the move.
Pet summoning ball. That's the way it's suppose to be.

But from what I hear it's not a fix for that unintended "feature". Or if it is suppose to be a fix...it doesn't work.
 

Klapauc

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I dont know the reason why they did increase the mana cost for ls from 5 to 10. Hurts newer / poorer players most because hci and lmc are exactly the 2 mods that make dexxer suits expensive.
Considering the changes to chiv, it dosent help new players either if they now need to spend 10-20 skillpoints more for the same result.

Also, the longer i think about the chivalry changes, i get the feeling that taking chiv to 120 for the additional benefits is easiest for necro or ranged templates.
The typical weapon/parry/tactics/anat/healing/resist paladin will need to sacrifice much needed points from something else to go to 120 chiv and doesnt gain much in the end.

Oh and now we got 2 bosses where you need fishing to spawn them? Not many people fight scalis because of that, lets just add another one then.

The changes to healing in combination with the cure pot changes will probably force pvm dexxers to get 120 healing skill if they want to fight stuff that frequently does deadly/lethal poison.

Still need to see a use for the changed melee weapon specials but thats because they are on the wrong weapons.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

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Who on earth was this lightning strike change aimed at? My wammy doesn't notice cuz leech, but my RP pure samurai is sucking wind now whenever a fight lasts a while. Darn overpowered RP chars.
Yeah, the Mana change to Lightning Strike is pretty ********. I mean, even at 120.0 Bushido, Lightning Strike only has a 20% chance to do a Critical (Ignores Resists, but capped at 35 damage in PvP). Excluding lucky streaks with RNG, it'd take you 5 Lightning Strikes to get a Critical, that's 50 Mana (30 with 40% LMC) with the proposed Mana Change. It'd become incredibly inefficient, especially compared to Armor Ignore, which has 100% chance to ignore Resists, and costs 20 Mana (12 with 40% LMC).

Just sign my petition to have "remove protection" scrolls created! Same casting speed as protection scrolls. Obv my remove protection scroll could remove protection from people I'm fighting.
Best fix would be to make the 6th level "Dispel" spell also affect "wards" on enemy players. It'd allow Warriors to remove wards as well with "Hit Dispel" weapons.

Max karma is 20k, so once you'll be healing probably for around 40 max with full karma. And you can hit that without 20k karma, though you'll be getting alot more 38s thrown in there until you hit max.
No it's not. On Napa, i have a 4/6 Macer/Pally with 80.0 Chiv (90.0 with Shield) who has 23k Karma. Considering my Necro/Swordsman and Necro/Mage are down to -32,000 Karma (Which is the cap), i'd have to say the positive Karma cap is 32,000. Or are you saying that the Chiv benefit caps out at 20k Karma?
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
No it's not. On Napa, i have a 4/6 Macer/Pally with 80.0 Chiv (90.0 with Shield) who has 23k Karma. Considering my Necro/Swordsman and Necro/Mage are down to -32,000 Karma (Which is the cap), i'd have to say the positive Karma cap is 32,000. Or are you saying that the Chiv benefit caps out at 20k Karma?
Yes he was saying for the math the cap is 20k.
 

Logrus

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Max Karma that Chiv factors is 20K, so if you are 28k Karma its not going to factor beyond the 20K.( This was the original Karma factor which has not been changed. Just the formula for how the karma factor is used).
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
Max Karma that Chiv factors is 20K, so if you are 28k Karma its not going to factor beyond the 20K.( This was the original Karma factor which has not been changed. Just the formula for how the karma factor is used).
Perhaps a change in the Karma factor should be considered then? Not sure if I agree that close wounds should heal for more than 40....but still think leaving out 10-13k worth of Karma in the karma factor is a bit extreme.

Just my opinion though.
 

Logrus

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Couldn't say why it was originally done that way. But I'd have to see how the current changes continue to play out before I mess with the core factors The change in the formula gave every effect a minimum of a 2% buff at top end which is not greatly significant but as for the individual ability changes, the top end bonuses increased along the lines of 15/30/ 40 %.

For now :eyes: watching to see what explodes.
 

GalenKnighthawke

Grand Poobah
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Couldn't say why it was originally done that way. But I'd have to see how the current changes continue to play out before I mess with the core factors The change in the formula gave every effect a minimum of a 2% buff at top end which is not greatly significant but as for the individual ability changes, the top end bonuses increased along the lines of 15/30/ 40 %.

For now :eyes: watching to see what explodes.
Damn, that's kind of low....Had no idea Chiv only took into account Karma that low.

One guess as to why it was that way though?

Back then when they made it, the high-end monsters were considerably harder to kill. Doable, surely, but not easy. There used to be posts about how to take on balrons or ancient wyrms on an archer, and it was considered something extraordinary.

Thus I think they may have been scaling how Karma worked with Chivalry to the level of power we had pre-Chivalry, maybe?

There is also the less-pleasant possibility that they were attempting to stave off whining from people who wanted the power Chiv would give them but would not be receptive to that power placing limits upon their behavior.

Which is a shame.

-Galen's player
 

Cetric

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Couldn't say why it was originally done that way. But I'd have to see how the current changes continue to play out before I mess with the core factors The change in the formula gave every effect a minimum of a 2% buff at top end which is not greatly significant but as for the individual ability changes, the top end bonuses increased along the lines of 15/30/ 40 %.

For now :eyes: watching to see what explodes.
I hope you watch yew gate on test center... that would give you a really quick idea of how things are working out.
 

Llewen

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Were there undocumented changes to the way stats are generated for tameable mobs included in the last publish? If not, has something been balled up, or "fixed" with the way mob stats are generated? A number of us dedicated tamers are noticing that it has been much harder to find quality pets than normal since the last publish.
 

Tina Small

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Bug Fixes

[*]Fixed an issue related to stabling pets prior to death.
Is there any way to get a developer or designer to clarify what this change means? I just did some testing on TC1 and nothing seems to have changed with regard to logging out while character and/or pet are dead. If your character logs out dead with a pet out of the stable, the pet is automatically stabled (even if it is dead) when your character logs on dead. If you get a rez and then log out and log back in, the pet rejoins you, regardless of whether it is dead or alive. If you get a rez and instead of logging out, go to the stable, the pet is in the stable, even if it's dead. (If it's dead and stabled, you can take it out and rez it yourself or have it rezzed.) I also checked and confirmed you still can't go to the stable with a live character and a dead pet and try to talk the stable master into stabling a dead pet.

It would be nice to get clarification on what this change means so it can actually be tested to see if it's doing what the developers intended....
 

Lynk

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It would be nice to get clarification on what this change means so it can actually be tested to see if it's doing what the developers intended....
Sheesh, you want changes, and to know what the changes are and if they actually work!?!?

Demanding bunch you all are!
 

Storm

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usually if they dont post the details its because they dont want more people to find out until they have it fixed
 

puni666

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Is there any way to get a developer or designer to clarify what this change means? I just did some testing on TC1 and nothing seems to have changed with regard to logging out while character and/or pet are dead. If your character logs out dead with a pet out of the stable, the pet is automatically stabled (even if it is dead) when your character logs on dead. If you get a rez and then log out and log back in, the pet rejoins you, regardless of whether it is dead or alive. If you get a rez and instead of logging out, go to the stable, the pet is in the stable, even if it's dead. (If it's dead and stabled, you can take it out and rez it yourself or have it rezzed.) I also checked and confirmed you still can't go to the stable with a live character and a dead pet and try to talk the stable master into stabling a dead pet.

It would be nice to get clarification on what this change means so it can actually be tested to see if it's doing what the developers intended....
From how it's written a pet should stay logged in till it dies then it gets stabled, but it doesn't work that way. Maybe I'm understanding it wrong.
 

Llewen

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From how it's written a pet should stay logged in till it dies then it gets stabled, but it doesn't work that way. Maybe I'm understanding it wrong.
That's what you want to have happen. But that's not what is going to happen, and that is not what they're saying. There was some form of bug that has to do with pet logging that they fixed, but they weren't very clear about what it was. Maybe it was some form of exploit, but it certainly wasn't the auto stabling that you want gotten rid of.

When every mage, warrior and archer has to spend twenty minutes to an hour repairing their weapons when they die, then maybe it will be a good idea to get rid of auto stabling for pets...
 

Lynk

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When every mage, warrior and archer has to spend twenty minutes to an hour repairing their weapons when they die, then maybe it will be a good idea to get rid of auto stabling for pets...
Or maybe its a good idea now?
 

Llewen

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When every mage, warrior and archer has to spend twenty minutes to an hour repairing their weapons when they die, then maybe it will be a good idea to get rid of auto stabling for pets...
Or maybe its a good idea now?
I'm sure all your friends with their dread warhorses and no vet would appreciate that... ;)
 

Smoot

Stratics Legend
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When every mage, warrior and archer has to spend twenty minutes to an hour repairing their weapons when they die, then maybe it will be a good idea to get rid of auto stabling for pets...
Or maybe its a good idea now?
I'm sure all your friends with their dread warhorses and no vet would appreciate that... ;)
was a pet just compared to a weapon? can you "disarm" a pet over and over? yes this is a bug that needs to be fixed. people are too used to a pet having max stats. maybe its time that maxing out a pets stats just becomes too hard, and becomes accepted that they will die alot, and never really be maxed out.
 

Wenchkin

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I'd also appreciate knowing what the stabling bug is that's being fixed.

I'd fully support changing it so tamers can't log out and save a pet, but it's kinda unclear if this was the intended fix or the bug is something else entirely heh.

Clarification would be much appreciated.

Also this one...
Pet Leather wolf golems will no longer be able to summon help.
I was under the impression that player crafted leather wolves had lost their ability to summon some time ago. Some discussion here about the mechanical pets, they weren't summoning back in January ;)

Overall I'm supportive of most changes in the publish, it'll mean some adapting, but I feel fairly positive about the changes. My fisher is especially happy lol.

Wenchy
 

Llewen

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was a pet just compared to a weapon? can you "disarm" a pet over and over? yes this is a bug that needs to be fixed. people are too used to a pet having max stats. maybe its time that maxing out a pets stats just becomes too hard, and becomes accepted that they will die alot, and never really be maxed out.
Can you "kill" a weapon? If you really want to kill the pet, figure out how to do it while the tamer's alive. I can't "disarm" your weapon and damage it while you are dead, why should you be able to kill my pet after I'm dead? And yes, a pet is a weapon, just like any other weapon - part of the reason why so many pvp "tamers" are sucky tamers, is that they don't understand this simple fact...

And no Wenchy, auto stabling is not a bug. It's a feature. It's a fair feature. Pets can be killed when the tamer is alive, there is no reason why a tamer dying should be an automatic death sentence for the pet. However, if the devs want to get rid of pet stat loss on death, and ensure that pets won't go wild when a tamer logs off or loses connection, then I would have no problem with auto stabling being done away with.
 

puni666

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Can you "kill" a weapon? If you really want to kill the pet, figure out how to do it while the tamer's alive.
Wait... when could my weapon still attack you after I was dead? Did I miss a new skill in this game? Does spirit speak give me the ability to attack you while I'm dead now? Now... if I was a tamer that used a pet as my weapon and it could still attack you while I was dead. Therefore you shouldn't have the choice of stabling it safely when you see fit. Making to much sense for you? Or are you going to keep up with this never ending stubbornness?
 

Llewen

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Can you "kill" a weapon? If you really want to kill the pet, figure out how to do it while the tamer's alive.
Wait... when could my weapon still attack you after I was dead? Did I miss a new skill in this game? Does spirit speak give me the ability to attack you while I'm dead now? Now... if I was a tamer that used a pet as my weapon and it could still attack you while I was dead. Therefore you shouldn't have the choice of stabling it safely when you see fit. Making to much sense for you? Or are you going to keep up with this never ending stubbornness?
You can kill another character with melee skills, archery skills, herding, magery, mysticism, poisoning, tinkering, ninjitsu and spellweaving (and probably some other skills that I've missed) after your character has died. That particular argument holds no water. But if you want to change it so that pets stop attacking and start running, or just wander around confused when their master dies, I have absolutely no problem with that.

Every "weapon type" in the game has advantages and disadvantages already, including pets. I see no reason to add the disadvantages involved with using pets simply because you and a few others have a particular prejudice against them.
 

Llewen

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Go go gadget arms?


(get it? you're reaching)
I'm not reaching in the slightest. There are literally dozens of ways a character can kill another character after they've already died - dozens of ways that don't involve the taming skill. You, Puni, and others have a blind prejudice against tamers. You don't understand the skill, patience, and determination it takes to play a tamer well. Every template takes skill and experience to play well, and that includes taming templates.

You see a dread warhorse or a greater dragon make what you think is an easy kill in pvp, and you get all puffed up with that wonderful feeling of self-righteousness and superiority and entirely forget that it is possible for any well crafted pvp template to make an "easy kill" given the right circumstances, and I'd hazard that the majority of "easy kills" in pvp in UO aren't made by tamers, and in fact I'd say the numbers aren't even close.

You've lost this argument. Tamers have been pvp'ing since day one in UO, and they will continue to do so until the day the game shuts down for good. And auto-stabling has been part of the game ever since pet bonding was introduced, and I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon either. Get over it. You'd be better off spending your time on improving your skills rather than whining about something that isn't going to change...
 

Llewen

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I've said this many times, but it's worth repeating. The only place I see a real problem with pets in pvp is on Siege where a bonded pet should, in my opinion, count as a character's Siege blessed item. Because you can assign personalities to them if you like, but ultimately all a pet is is a piece of character equipment with it's own unique set of advantages and disadvantages, just like any other piece of equipment, and when it comes to issues like being "blessed" on Siege, it should be treated as such.
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
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And no Wenchy, auto stabling is not a bug. It's a feature. It's a fair feature. Pets can be killed when the tamer is alive, there is no reason why a tamer dying should be an automatic death sentence for the pet. However, if the devs want to get rid of pet stat loss on death, and ensure that pets won't go wild when a tamer logs off or loses connection, then I would have no problem with auto stabling being done away with.
I'm not going to get into a long winded discussion with you Llewen. You know I'm never going to agree that tactical log outs should be kept in the game, or that skill penalties should be removed if the log out option is nerfed. There is no point in having pets coded to be able to die and lose skill when tamers can circumvent that coding by logging out when it suits them. It just doesn't make sense - code pets to die and be weakened by death then let tamers decide "nah, I'll keep my pets on full power".

Wenchy
 

Lynk

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I'm not going to get into a long winded discussion with you Llewen. You know I'm never going to agree that tactical log outs should be kept in the game, or that skill penalties should be removed if the log out option is nerfed. There is no point in having pets coded to be able to die and lose skill when tamers can circumvent that coding by logging out when it suits them. It just doesn't make sense - code pets to die and be weakened by death then let tamers decide "nah, I'll keep my pets on full power".

Wenchy
Nicely put.
 

puni666

Slightly Crazed
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You can kill another character with melee skills, archery skills, herding, magery, mysticism, poisoning, tinkering, ninjitsu and spellweaving (and probably some other skills that I've missed) after your character has died.
None of these things from other skills have 500-1k HP and follow you. Sure a bleed tick for 4 damage, or a poison tick for 3 damage, or a rare death strike after the ninja has died may have killed people, but they're nothing compared to pets that maintain damage after a players death. It's ignorant to think that.
 

Llewen

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There is no point in having pets coded to be able to die and lose skill when tamers can circumvent that coding by logging out when it suits them. It just doesn't make sense - code pets to die and be weakened by death then let tamers decide "nah, I'll keep my pets on full power".

Wenchy
Nicely put.
It's a stupid argument. Pets aren't invincible, they can be killed when the tamer is alive, and very often are. The coding isn't "circumvented" it just isn't inevitable if you know what you are doing, ie. if you have skill. It makes perfect sense.

The whole idea of getting rid of auto-stabling is simply to punish tamers for daring to pvp as a tamer. Lynk doesn't like tamers in pvp, neither does puni666, and a number of others, so they simply want tamers punished for daring to pvp as tamers. Anything that accomplishes that goal, or travels down the road of removing pets from pvp altogether is of course going to garner their enthusiastic approval.

Choirs love to do what they do best, sing...

None of these things from other skills have 500-1k HP and follow you. Sure a bleed tick for 4 damage, or a poison tick for 3 damage, or a rare death strike after the ninja has died may have killed people, but they're nothing compared to pets that maintain damage after a players death. It's ignorant to think that.
Sure it is, it's exactly the same thing. The scale might be different, but then the skill set is different, and there are advantages and disadvantages to every skill set. As for "4 damage" or "3 damage", a gm tinker trap does considerably more damage than that. The only "ignorance" here is your inability to accept the obvious due to your blind hatred of a certain template.
 

Llewen

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You're wrong. Deal with it.
:popcorn: Now there's an intelligent argument. And extremely convincing. Lynk says I'm wrong, it must be true. Time to get back on topic and provide feedback on the publish... :mf_prop:
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
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It's a stupid argument. Pets aren't invincible, they can be killed when the tamer is alive, and very often are. The coding isn't "circumvented" it just isn't inevitable if you know what you are doing, ie. if you have skill. It makes perfect sense.
The coding is circumvented. You're logging out for goodness sakes, if that's not circumventing the game coding, I don't know what is! If the tamer doesn't log out, then either the pet dies or they have to really use some skill to keep it alive. Or retreat. But it's much easier to realise the pet is in trouble and do a tactical logout. Sometimes pets still die, but it makes a huge difference to a tamer's fight the rest of the time. And it doesn't happen that often. Or I was terribly good at logging out when I tested it...

The whole idea of getting rid of auto-stabling is simply to punish tamers for daring to pvp as a tamer.
Nonsense. There are plenty of PvM tamers who think pet death is optional and give in to the log out temptation when it suits them. It's never been just a PvP thing. In fact it probably happens far more in PvM. Tamers don't like it when their pets die, period. Some will use the X button any time they can. Anyone who wants to preserve a trained pet will be sorely tempted to log out, and feel entitled to do just that. Especially after this has been a bug so long it's called a feature! It's not enough that auto stable prevents pets from going wild when we lose connection. Now it's supposed to stop them from dying too.

I think Llewen it's time to just accept that others don't share your view and stop making it about "oh you all just hate tamers/tamers who PvP".

I'm betting 10gp that this isn't the bug which got fixed and all this drama was for nothing lol. It'll be some mundane silly wee bug nobody really noticed.

Wenchy
 

Storm

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I really dont know what the effects of auto stable are in pvp I have not seen it used to avoid anything!

As for the rest of the game I see 0 problem with it I use it frequently my connection at home is not the most stable and crashes at least 1 time a day so auto log is great for this!

as for pvm all a person has to do is say all follow me and recall and pet is out of battle so to avoid pet death log out is not needed any way

anyway thats just my thoughts not even sure why we are all arguing about what we have no clue about yet

keep it civil
Storm
 

Another Lamer

Journeyman
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it dosent help new players either if they now need to spend 10-20 skillpoints more for the same result.
Dont you think UO is actually a little too easy these days anyway for new players?

When I first started it took 6 months before I had a half decent char.

Not many people fight scalis because of that, lets just add another one then.
Did 10 Scalis just last week. Just because you can't kill it doesnt mean to say others cant :p


Still need to see a use for the changed melee weapon specials but thats because they are on the wrong weapons.
You want EVERYTHING on a plate for you dont ya!!
 

Llewen

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I think Llewen it's time to just accept that others don't share your view and stop making it about "oh you all just hate tamers/tamers who PvP".
You are the only person that I know of who argues as you do for whom this is not an issue of prejudice against tamers. With you it's a hyperactive sense of nobility - let's call it "Siege mentality". I respect that, I respect you, and I respect your views. The same could not be said for the other 99.9% of those who are at this moment cheering you on... :)

And you are right, this is probably a rabbit hole, because I don't think the "fix" mentioned has anything to do with this issue. But every time this issue comes up I feel obligated to show that there is more than one side to the argument, because I wouldn't ever want the devs to look at a discussion like this and just assume everyone agrees with the "tamer haters" on this forum.
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

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I think Llewen it's time to just accept that others don't share your view and stop making it about "oh you all just hate tamers/tamers who PvP".
I don't really care if auto log out is gone, since I have never taken "hours" to get my pets .1 skill back. But I do however agree with Llewen with the fact that, aside from you, the people arguing here are only doing so because they do not like tamers in pvp. Don't believe that statement? Look up their posts and tell me differently.

I'm betting 10gp that this isn't the bug which got fixed and all this drama was for nothing lol. It'll be some mundane silly wee bug nobody really noticed.

Wenchy
It certainly wasn't since the thing in question, or heated debate rather, is an intended feature. This argument always happens, and puni's hate for tamers in PvP started this by purposefully misinterpreting the patch notes lol.
 

Night

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TC1 - Currently Momentum Strike (Bushido) and Holy Light (Chivalry) appear to be breaking agro/combat (PvM) in some circumstances - I think these were old bugs / features that were previously fixed ?

Auto defend (attack) of creatures that agro you also doesn't appear to be working as on live currently ?
 

Wenchkin

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You are the only person that I know of who argues as you do for whom this is not an issue of prejudice against tamers. With you it's a hyperactive sense of nobility - let's call it "Siege mentality". I respect that, I respect you, and I respect your views. The same could not be said for the other 99.9% of those who are at this moment cheering you on... :)
It's very rare to meet a PvPer who does like tamers lol. But that doesn't mean they're wrong to object to auto stabling, even if it's not done in the most politically correct tamer friendly way.

First rule of being a tamer in PvP - everyone is going to hate and despise you. It's been like that for over 9 years lol. Which is why these discussions always head south if the tamer and PvPer can't see the other side of the discussion, let alone respect the person making the argument.

Wenchy
 

puni666

Slightly Crazed
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Cloak‡1987297 said:
It certainly wasn't since the thing in question, or heated debate rather, is an intended feature. This argument always happens, and puni's hate for tamers in PvP started this by purposefully misinterpreting the patch notes lol.
Actually my hate for pvp tamers happened the first time a dread mare logged out right in front of me just before it died :lame:. No need for vet now!
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
Actually my hate for pvp tamers happened the first time a dread mare logged out right in front of me just before it died :lame:. No need for vet now!
I didn't say when it happens, only that it happened. :p

I can understand your frustration though, but like I said wouldn't matter to me to much lol, I sometimes use a dread (just for the riding factor) but even if so it usually dies before I do, and if not I usually try my hardest to res and then get back into it before it dies. Only time I really log save my pets is if I am at a spawn and die, cause you won't be seeing me anytime soon and I would prefer not to have them die under that situation.
 
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