Please make discord an aggressive action that flags the bard.

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>


I'm still curious though, if the devs pander to your wishes, how is one supposed to deal with a GZ hugging tamer?


[/ QUOTE ]

*hint* Don't play around guard zones...

It all seems so simple sometimes...

 

[Guest]

Oh I don't... but if I happen to pass through Yew gate on my way home and a tamer is acting like an idiot, I have been known to bring my bard or thief for a closer look. If I can stop a tamer acting like a jerk in Fel then I do *shrugs* I get all sorts of lovely greetings if I take a tamer to PvM in Fel, often because of the actions of said idiots. Thus I have no sympathy for them, and less when they recycle whine posts.

Apparently it's ok for a tamer to PvP and score kills with pets, but less ok if anyone fights back with a good degree of success.

The thing is, regardless of whether you're a tamer or a stealth archer, if you get successful in PvP, other players are going to plot your downfall. It's the price you pay for that reputation and if someone finds the chink in your armour, it's obvious they'll use it. Fortunately not every PvPer comes here looking for fixes when this happens...otherwise we'd all be fighting in the sand with nothing but our hands as weapons

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

Oh I don't... but if I happen to pass through Yew gate on my way home and a tamer is acting like an idiot, I have been known to bring my bard or thief for a closer look. If I can stop a tamer acting like a jerk in Fel then I do *shrugs* I get all sorts of lovely greetings if I take a tamer to PvM in Fel, often because of the actions of said idiots. Thus I have no sympathy for them, and less when they recycle whine posts.

Apparently it's ok for a tamer to PvP and score kills with pets, but less ok if anyone fights back with a good degree of success.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm an effective pvp tamer, but I still die plenty often, without there being a bard in the picture. Telling someone they are "whining" is 733t sounding way of dismissing what they are saying without actually discussing it. Barding a pet is roughly equivalent to having someone curse and cast essence of wind on a mage, with no flagging, and the spells don't go away as long as the caster maintains line of sight.

I'm not quite sure why you single out tamers as "acting like a jerk". If you think tamers are omnipotent, you are completely wrong, every tamer I've seen pvp'ing regularly dies just as often as any other template of equal skill. Yes, greater dragons now are harder to kill, but the tamers themselves aren't any harder to kill. Fighting against a skilled tamer requires changing tactics, but you generally don't fight dexxers and mages in the same way either, unless you don't know what you are doing.

Tamers aren't inclined to be "jerks" any more than anyone who plays any other template. Yes some tamers use the guard zone tactically, but that is as legitimate a tactic as it is for any other template. In fact, the ones that I have seen abusing the guard zone by running in and out of it and not curing poison etc. and timing it so that they are running into the guard zone and calling guards just as an offencive spell takes effect, are generally not tamers.

Yes I use the guard zone, but I use it to make pvp possible when I am outnumbered. I don't see how I am somehow being a "jerk" just because I don't allow myself to be instantly ganked every time I go to pvp. When there is a bard there, instantly every fight I am in is a gank. And don't give me the bs about a tamer with pets being a walking gank - tamers have the same number of skill points to utilize as any other template, and their pets don't do anything but die, and this includes greater dragons, without them.

The truth is Wenchy, you seem to have the same bias against tamers in pvp as a lot of other pvp'rs who think that tamers don't belong in pvp, that they are over powered, and take no skill to play - all of which are completely false. Rather odd considering you play a tamer.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

Telling someone they are "whining" is 733t sounding way of dismissing what they are saying without actually discussing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been discussed, you chose to ignore the valid discussion points.

<blockquote><hr>

Barding a pet is roughly equivalent to having someone curse and cast essence of wind on a mage, with no flagging, and the spells don't go away as long as the caster maintains line of sight.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't, it's not remotely comparable. Pets damage output/resists/hp is so riddiculously high in the first place that even discorded they can kill players fairly easily.

<blockquote><hr>

but that is as legitimate a tactic as it is for any other template

[/ QUOTE ]

Except bards? Who just happen to be the only minor counter.

<blockquote><hr>

Yes I use the guard zone, but I use it to make pvp possible when I am outnumbered.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does the bard, you &amp; your pet = 2v1.

<blockquote><hr>

tamers have the same number of skill points to utilize as any other template

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but no other template has a hireling/pet/shield with up to 808.5 skill points.

<blockquote><hr>

you seem to have the same bias against tamers in pvp as a lot of other pvp'rs who think that tamers don't belong in pvp,

[/ QUOTE ]

People don't want to fight pets in fel they want to fight people. People hiding behind OTT pets is no better.

<blockquote><hr>

that they are over powered

[/ QUOTE ]

They are.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

Oh &amp; before you say it, it doesn't matter how much the way I've phrased my post shows that I dislike tamers in PvP because whatever way you want to dress it up it amounts to the same thing.

Most player vs player fighting involves a template that is strong in one way and weak in another and that allows for players to rely on thinking to win, but with pets you don't get that because pets are both casters &amp; warriors rolled in to one usually with an extra 2-3 abilities on top. On top of that their hp and base damages are so high that even if you target their weakest resist it would still take more resources than most players can have to kill them while keeping themselfs alive vs the onslaught.

Pets in pvp are offense dumping AI turrets that most people would rather not waste their time/energy on when looking for an intelligence based challenge.

Edit:
I posted this because you don't seem to understand why tamers are disliked, you seem to think it's because it killed someone and their complaining.
Going up against an opponent (especially one you really hate) fighting for 10 minutes then deciding it's a draw saying 'good fight' in an amicable 'I learned something new' kind of way is what I think pvp should be about. Not 'ha, I stuck my 900+ hp pet on a 100 hp player, won and laughed in his face.'

 

[Llewen]

There's a great saying, "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts..."

<blockquote><hr>

Going up against an opponent (especially one you really hate) fighting for 10 minutes then deciding it's a draw saying 'good fight' in an amicable 'I learned something new' kind of way is what I think pvp should be about.

[/ QUOTE ]That's funny, I play a pvp tamer and I've had a number of long interesting fights, exactly as you describe. I've won some, and lost some, but I admit not many have ended in a draw, the main reason being that I'm always on foot, so I can't run away if I get in trouble.

But in the main, you have a pretty romantic view of pvp that doesn't quite match reality. The vast majority of pvp that I have seen, including that which doesn't involve tamers, involves some sort of ganking and the outnumbered person running away as fast as he can - usually followed by one or more deaths and someone doing his best imitation of a fourth grade bully. The only "amicable" battles I have ever seen have generally been between guild mates.

So as usual, you are spinning the truth to give your position some sort of credibility, based on, as is the case with most of your arguments, pure fantasy.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

There's a great saying, "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts..."

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't sound like a great saying, sounds like someone saying I'm out of arguments but I'll dress it up with this bs as if to disguise it.
So what your saying is that your too closed minded to accept whats being said despite in your previous post saying you want to discuss it.

<blockquote><hr>

That's funny, I play a pvp tamer and I've had a number of long interesting fights, exactly as you describe. I've won some, and lost some, but I admit not many have ended in a draw, the main reason being that I'm always on foot, so I can't run away if I get in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]
Someone trying to kill you while some AI dumps all over them isn't want I'm talking about at all.

<blockquote><hr>

But in the main, you have a pretty romantic view of pvp that doesn't quite match reality. The vast majority of pvp that I have seen, including that which doesn't involve tamers, involves some sort of ganking and the outnumbered person running away as fast as he can - usually followed by one or more deaths and someone doing his best imitation of a fourth grade bully. The only "amicable" battles I have ever seen have generally been between guild mates.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have a view that doesn't match reality yet you finish off by saying you've only ever seen ganks. Yew gate is not all there is to pvp. Maybe you'd see more amicable battles if you weren't on a tamer. (ignoring also that this completely contradicts what you said in the previous statment that you have had long fights)

<blockquote><hr>

So as usual, you are spinning the truth to give your position some sort of credibility, based on, as is the case with most of your arguments, pure fantasy.

[/ QUOTE ]
As usual you want to discuss it one minute but refuse to the next, keep wondering why your requests go unheard.

Oh and talking about credibility when you maintain tamers aren't overpowered? Pure fantasy.

 

[imported_outcry]

This entire thread comes from the fact that i discord your pet when you are in Fel.. Due to fact you only sit in guard zone and have your bola up for any red /grey that runs up to guard zone to attempt a person to attack for a fight..*mind you mostly when 4 blues are attacking the red also*

Then you say the all kill, and send pets off while you are still in guard zone, if the pets happen to fail to kill you then go and run off and hide until your unflagged..

Like someone said in an earlier post Take away All Guard Zone in Fel and this would never be a problem for anyone

If they want to flag the discorder for that then i will still agree with one exception
if the dragon goes after the disco person , the dragon should not be allowed to be summoned back into guard zone and if it is should get guard whacked.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

This entire thread comes from the fact that i discord your pet when you are in Fel..

[/ QUOTE ]
Not true, you give yourself too much credit. I am aware of this problem because I am a tamer, and I've had this happen to me many times, certainly not only you.

<blockquote><hr>

Due to fact you only sit in guard zone and have your bola up for any red /grey that runs up to guard zone to attempt a person to attack for a fight..*mind you mostly when 4 blues are attacking the red also*

[/ QUOTE ]Flat out lies. I use the guard zone as a base, primarily when I am seriously outnumbered, which is often the case, and I will go back to it to regroup, bless my pets, etc. even when I am not outnumbered, although I don't really need to do this, it is just a habit. When I am not outnumbered, I spend most of my time near Yew outside the guard zone.

And of course, if you want to get specific, and personal, you and your guild mates do the exact same thing with your houses, your guild leader is especially proficient at that, he has access to at least half a dozen houses around Yew gate, and he uses them all. It's a real trick to get him away from a house. And even if I had a house right around Yew gate, I couldn't into it 90% of the time, because 90% of the time I am the one that makes the first move (this isn't negative against anyone, it is simply a result of the guard zone being there - although I expect if the guard zone wasn't there, I would still be the one doing most of the attacking, because you and your guild mates like to leave the option open for running into your houses, and again, there is nothing specifically wrong with that, using a house tactically is no different from using a guard zone tactically).

As for ganking, I am ganked far more often than I gank others, I can guarantee you that. And someone from your guild accusing anyone else of that, is beyond laughable. What I am just as likely to do as gank is attack someone who is ganking someone else, or who is cross healing someone else. I absolutely love doing that.

<blockquote><hr>

Then you say the all kill, and send pets off while you are still in guard zone, if the pets happen to fail to kill you then go and run off and hide until your unflagged..

[/ QUOTE ]As I said above, I use the guard zone tactically, especially when I am outnumbered. Yes, I do often run off and unflag. I learnt that from a certain famous person in your guild who does the exact same thing all the time. I run off for many reasons. Sometimes I am attempting to draw the person I attacked away from their house so I actually have a chance against them. Sometimes I am going off to unflag so I can resupply, because I tend to carry a minimum of supplies so that I don't lose a ton every time I die.

Sometimes I go off and unflag because I am seriously outnumbered, and even in a guard zone, I have had it many times when I've been concentrating on my attacker and one or two others have cast on me to finish me off before I can, or think to, call guards, either that or there is a good chance I will end up fighting someone who has brought one or more healers with them.

And when I attack a grey, if I don't kill them right away, I always run off and unflag. Getting in an extended fight with a grey, especially when you are a tamer, is a sure way to either end up guard whacked, or with a murder count, or both. I don't make apologies for any of these behaviours, the fact that it annoys you and your guild mates, is an added bonus.

<blockquote><hr>

Like someone said in an earlier post Take away All Guard Zone in Fel and this would never be a problem for anyone

[/ QUOTE ]This is idiocy, and would completely destroy pvp at Yew gate, which, whether you like it or not, or whether it is "real" pvp or not, is still one of the surest ways to have some pvp fun, and as I've already stated, it makes it possible for players that are outnumbered to stick around and have some fun.

I suppose those with houses in the area might still fight each other, but I'm betting within a month pvp at Yew gate would be finished if a change like this was implemented. And if it wasn't finished, it would be yet another way of ensuring that pvp is less accessible to any that don't happen to be rich enough, or fortunate enough to have access to a house in Yew, but that is what discussions of taming in pvp usually boil down to. The pvp "clique" has decided that tamers in pvp aren't cool and they don't like them. It has little to do with tamers being unbalanced, a perspective simply not supported by the facts, and everything to do with elitism and snobbishness.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Telling someone they are "whining" is 733t sounding way of dismissing what they are saying without actually discussing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we've done the discussion to near death, but if you want more you got it lol.

<blockquote><hr>

Barding a pet is roughly equivalent to having someone curse and cast essence of wind on a mage, with no flagging, and the spells don't go away as long as the caster maintains line of sight.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing you'd love to guard whack a bard or 10, but let me say it for the umpteenth time. Flagging a bard will not stop the bard from discoing your pets, therefore it solves nothing. I can ready my disco to hit the minute your pet steps out of the GZ, resulting in the same effects. As it only takes 2 barding skills to do this, that leaves a lot of template to build up pet killing and or defensive skills to deal with you setting pets on me too. So you'd still be crying even after your fix. Which makes it pointless annoying bards to get a non-fix, especially as it affects such a tiny minority of players, it wouldn't register on the radar.

If you want to have the disco bards flagged, the first concession you need to accept is the removal of the GZ around moongates in Fel. Then there is no "comfort zone" PvPing, if you can call it that, and a tamer will no longer be able to fire pets onto surrounding players while hiding in the GZ. Because while a tamer is wrapped in the GZ while his pets do the damage beyond it, that tamer is a royal pain in the backside, and damn hard to kill.

<blockquote><hr>

Tamers aren't inclined to be "jerks" any more than anyone who plays any other template. Yes some tamers use the guard zone tactically, but that is as legitimate a tactic as it is for any other template.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not a tactic. It's cowardly just like house hiding. It doesn't matter if half the shard is doing it, you are essentially taking on opponents on your terms because you aren't able to deal with theirs. If you want safer PvP, try RP PvP instead of the GZ.

If you stand and yell all kill, targeting 1 red after another and not allowing anyone to fight you because you're in GZ, how is that NOT being a jerk? How is that any kind of PvP to be proud of? It just isn't. Tactics... oh please! You want to try fighting some tamers like yourself and see how you find it on the other side. Until you stand and watch this behaviour and imagine it on the receiving end, you'll continue to miss the point anyone is making against you here.

<blockquote><hr>

In fact, the ones that I have seen abusing the guard zone by running in and out of it and not curing poison etc. and timing it so that they are running into the guard zone and calling guards just as an offencive spell takes effect, are generally not tamers.

[/ QUOTE ]
You say it yourself "abusing the guard zone" yet you use it and it's tactical? It's not clever whoever uses it. You don't deserve special treatment because you're a tamer, sorry.

<blockquote><hr>

Yes I use the guard zone, but I use it to make pvp possible when I am outnumbered. I don't see how I am somehow being a "jerk" just because I don't allow myself to be instantly ganked every time I go to pvp.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure many players would love an anti-gank protection like the GZ, but it's like stabilizers on a bike, surely the aim is to fight without that protection? I don't have that protection at a champ spawn or harrower, so why should you get that level of safety? You're no different to any other class, so you don't deserve special protection. My thief can't make off with your bandages inside the GZ, yet you can score kills and insurance (assuming you damage alongside pets). Summat a wee bit odd there

<blockquote><hr>

When there is a bard there, instantly every fight I am in is a gank. And don't give me the bs about a tamer with pets being a walking gank - tamers have the same number of skill points to utilize as any other template, and their pets don't do anything but die, and this includes greater dragons, without them.

[/ QUOTE ]
When ANYONE engages in PvP outside the GZ, sometimes they get ganked. Other times you're in the ganking group. Now and then it's 1 v 1 or 2. That's life in Fel. You shouldn't expect to dictate the terms of engagement. The only place for PvP terms is RP PvP, where restrictions are in place for the sake of fairness. Otherwise, as the saying goes, if you can't take the heat...

I'll try saying this yet again, because I'm sure I've said it before in this thread. You can be in the GZ and your pet can be much further out. Yet you can command those pets from a good distance. If you venture a wee bit out of GZ you can keep an eye on them and still have a safe run back if needed. Do you think I haven't watched these tamer "tactics" in action? I've run enough tamers to know how far I can command my pets and keep them safe, so please don't try wriggling out of that. You have a lot of advantages with mobile "weapons" so it's perfectly fair that you can be countered by a bard.

<blockquote><hr>

The truth is Wenchy, you seem to have the same bias against tamers in pvp as a lot of other pvp'rs who think that tamers don't belong in pvp, that they are over powered, and take no skill to play - all of which are completely false. Rather odd considering you play a tamer.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a problem with a tamer once they have the guts to step out of the GZ and fight with others who are able to fight back. Those were addressed with the pet ball changes. There was no such change to fix the GZ tamers, so barding is all we have to fight you with. Is that clear enough for you?

I also fail to see how flagging a bard will solve a problem when all the bards will do is disco when your pet goes out of GZ. It's obvious flagging won't help you, but you refuse to see it. I hardly think I can be considered anti tamer in any respect while having 6 of them, but there ya go. Some players (tamers included) just don't see the value in GZ or house hiding forms of PvP. It's not anti tamer, it's anti GZ-hugging/house hiding. It's no more tactical than hiding under the covers and yelling for your mum, I'm amazed anyone would even admit to GZ PvP nevermind want it made easier for them...

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

I also fail to see how flagging a bard will solve a problem when all the bards will do is disco when your pet goes out of GZ.

[/ QUOTE ]I thought you were smarter than that. I can, and have, killed many a bard, including bards with pets, bards that had my pets discorded and peaced, etc. I have yet to meet a bard that I couldn't kill. If they flag when they discord, it allows me to defend myself. I don't care if I can't get them guard whacked, as long as they flag and I can attack them as I would any other aggressive action inside or outside a guard zone.

As for the rest of what you posted, most of it either is simply not true, or doesn't make sense, but I'm not going waste my time responding to it at this time. But count on it, I am going to keep bringing this topic up from time to time, because it needs to be addressed.

 

[Guest]

Well you wanted the discussion, I was just aiming to give you some... I didn't say I was going to nod and agree with you...

You want PvP on your terms with a fluffy cloud of protection around you. It doesn't matter how you dress it up, that's what you're asking for. You said it yourself, if the GZ wasn't there you'd be ganked. Or words to that effect. That's the problem right there. Nobody (I include non tamers in that) should be protected by a GZ at a moongate. End of story.

Maybe you should try hanging round Yew gate with a non tamer PvPer. Ideally red. Wait and see what happens when a tamer arrives and you're the target. You might learn something.

Wenchy

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

I thought you were smarter than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's certainly smarter than you.

<blockquote><hr>

I can, and have, killed many a bard, including bards with pets, bards that had my pets discorded and peaced, etc. I have yet to meet a bard that I couldn't kill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah because your pets are overpowered and bards are not a defensively strong pvp template which is why they shouldn't be changed on a tamers say so. I don't know if you realise it but most of what you say supports the opposite of what your trying to achieve.

<blockquote><hr>

As for the rest of what you posted, most of it either is simply not true, or doesn't make sense, but I'm not going waste my time responding to it at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything he posted was true and made perfect sense, you should read it carefully might help you get a better grip on reality.

<blockquote><hr>

But count on it, I am going to keep bringing this topic up from time to time, because it needs to be addressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats fine, when you do I'll continue to explain clearly how your wrong. You can't/won't see it, doesn't matter it'll be there for anyone else.

 

[Llewen]

What the devs need to do is create characters with various templates, and go see for themselves what is actually going on, and not rely only on what is said in Stratics, either on my part, or on your part. They also need to collect concrete statistics which can be sorted according to skills, account age, suit mods, etc. If they combine those two things, I am fairly confident it will support what I have been saying all along.

If they don't, then what has often happened in the past will continue to be true, the side that makes the most noise, or has the inside track in some way, will be the side that is payed attention to, regardless of the real situation.

At this point we are just trading insults and each saying the other is wrong. I happen to think my arguments are clearer, more logical, and are actually supported by the facts, but of course you feel the same way about your arguments. I'll leave it to others to make the final judgement.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

If they don't, then what has often happened in the past will continue to be true, the side that makes the most noise, or has the inside track in some way, will be the side that is payed attention to, regardless of the real situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

You do realise that it's your side making the most noise? Page one everyone saying 'yeah I agree disco is an aggressive act' (regardless of it not being - thats what your whole thread is about - making it one)
How do I have the 'inside track'?

<blockquote><hr>

I happen to think my arguments are clearer, more logical, and are actually supported by the facts,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I don't get, you say that pets are not overpowered and that it is supported by the facts. Yet you have posted no facts that support pets not being overpowered.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

This is what I don't get, you say that pets are not overpowered and that it is supported by the facts. Yet you have posted no facts that support pets not being overpowered.

[/ QUOTE ]...and you have posted no facts that support your position either. All I can do is bear witness to what I see, and what I have seen, as I have already posted several times, is that the average pvp tamer dies more often than the average player of any other pvp template. Neither of us have access to game logs, or statistics which support our positions, which is why I think that the devs need to collect those kinds of stats before they make game altering decisions, if they don't already do that.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

...and you have posted no facts that support your position either. All I can do is bear witness to what I see, and what I have seen, as I have already posted several times, is that the average pvp tamer dies more often than the average player of any other pvp template. Neither of us have access to game logs, or statistics which support our positions, which is why I think that the devs need to collect those kinds of stats before they make game altering decisions, if they don't already do that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Some others here have witnessed bad tamer behaviour from the other side of the fence too... that's why we disagree with you.

There are few tamers who are in PvP as it is. Out of those, fewer still are here agreeing with you. EA are trying to make a game that appeals to as many players as they can. Which means listening to the majority, not 2 or 3 tamers who want easy kills. That would be absurd. There are enough issues with PvP to resolve, without creating yet more.

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

There are few tamers who are in PvP as it is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly what I have been saying all along. If tamers truly were over powered, you would see a lot more of them, the way you did with bushido dexxers with lesser hiryus, or archers way back when, or the way you did/do with tamers on Siege. People aren't noble, they don't stay away from a particular template because they feel it is less noble, they naturally gravitate towards whatever is successful, and a pvp tamer, is a challenging, tough template to play, that is less successful in general than any of the regular "normal" pvp templates that I can think of, even with greater dragons and even without factoring in the fact that they can be targeted by an aggressive action with no consequences to the aggressor, in a way that no other class can - which was the point of this whole thread in the first place.

As for you GOD, most of your so called "facts", are your opinions, with one or two exceptions. Your so-called "facts" would never stand up in a court of law, and you provide absolutely no hard evidence to support any of them, although I can agree with some of the points you present as "facts" I completely disagree with the conclusions you draw from them, because you combine points that are true with a great dash of ignorance.

<blockquote><hr>

Fact: combining specials and spells at the same time on players was nerfed, pets still can. (true, but in support of a major conclusion that is simply not true)
Fact: no player does the melee damage of a super dragon. (MAJOR CONCLUSION - completely untrue)
Fact: no player has the ability to half the opponents resists (previously drop to 0) (true, but in support of a major conclusion that is simply not true)
Fact: no player with the exception of reptalon form can firebreath - as firebreath is based on hp and a players max is 150 in that form it doesn't remotely compare to a firebreath from a 900-1000 hp dragon. (true, but also in support of a major conclusion that is simply not true)

[/ QUOTE ]I'm combining these because they belong together. The truth is a well played bushido/dexxer or archer has far better dpi than a greater dragon, or any combination of pets, including all their specials, with the exception of a full pack of frenzied ostards or hell hounds. Talk to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about, they will tell you that what I am saying is true. Sarphus is a great one to ask this question, because he has a great deal of experience playing both templates, in many different variations, at the highest level. He also is a number cruncher, and actually can provide the numbers to support what he says.

<blockquote><hr>

Fact: pets hp is so absurdly high that a player has no chance of killing it while being attacked by the pet.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, a greater dragon is hard to kill, that is it's great strength, but the tamer behind that greater dragon is just as easy to kill as ever, and in most cases easier, because the tamer is on foot. The simple truth appears to be that you don't know how, or aren't equipped to deal with tamers, either that or you win most of your battles with them, but you can't stand the fact that you ever lose to them.

And GOD, and Wenchy for that matter, if I don't ever respond to a specific point you have made it is generally for one of two reasons. Either it is so completely ridiculous, and you are so completely convinced that it isn't, that there is little point in arguing about it, or I have already discussed the point and you are simply repeating yourself, and again there is no chance I will ever be able to change your mind.

Let me give a concrete example - something that you rarely do:

<blockquote><hr>

Fact: combining specials and spells at the same time on players was nerfed, pets still can.
Fact: no player has the ability to half the opponents resists (previously drop to 0)
Fact: no player with the exception of reptalon form can firebreath - as firebreath is based on hp and a players max is 150 in that form it doesn't remotely compare to a firebreath from a 900-1000 hp dragon.

[/ QUOTE ]I've already responded to this elsewhere, but I'll repeat myself for your sake. Yes pets have certain specials, including armour corruption, and fire breath, and yes they can combine them with spells and attacks, but players have access to many "specials" and skills that pets have no access to, including some that are incredibly powerful, and most of them are "combined" with some form of attack. I'll list some of them.

DCI - defence chance increase
HCI - hit chance increase
HLA - hit lower attack
HLD - hit lower defence
Necromancy spells and their effects
Spellweaving spells and their effects
Chivalry spells and their effects
Bushido spells and their effects
Barding skills
Archery
All of the weapon special attacks (armour ignore, concussion hits, etc.)

And I'm sure that list is not complete. As you can see, there are many spells, special attacks, and skills that pets have no access to, and even if they did, the mob a.i. in UO is extremely primitive, and if pets ever use an effective combination of specials, spells and attacks, it is completely random, and most of the time they don't combine specials, spells and attacks in a way that a player would, to increase their effectiveness. They are just as likely to paralyse you, then cast magic arrow, as they are to poison, or armour corrupt, and flamestrike you.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

Your so-called "facts" would never stand up in a court of law


[/ QUOTE ]
Court of law? This is UO not CSI: Yew Gate.

<blockquote><hr>

(true, but in support of a major conclusion that is simply not true)


[/ QUOTE ]
How is it not true? Explain it. You keep saying facts support otherwise, yet still have posted none.

<blockquote><hr>

(MAJOR CONCLUSION - completely untrue)

[/ QUOTE ]
Prove it.

<blockquote><hr>

(true, but in support of a major conclusion that is simply not true)


[/ QUOTE ]
How is it?

<blockquote><hr>

(true, but also in support of a major conclusion that is simply not true)


[/ QUOTE ]
You've concluded elsewhere then that a player can firebreath for more than 50 hp on 70 fire resist have you? Want to post a screenie of that?

<blockquote><hr>

The truth is a well played bushido/dexxer or archer has far better dpi than a greater dragon, or any combination of pets, including all their specials, with the exception of a full pack of frenzied ostards or hell hounds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Except honor/perfection doesn't work on pets and unless they fixed it slayers don't work on the tamed super dragons either.
The truth is a bushido dexxer isn't going to hit that dragon for over 40 with it's melee, the dragon does. The player doesn't have a breath attack that does over half the dragons hp.

<blockquote><hr>

Yes, a greater dragon is hard to kill, that is it's great strength, but the tamer behind that greater dragon is just as easy to kill as ever, and in most cases easier, because the tamer is on foot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Except you can't kill the tamer because the pets kill you first. Tamers don't need most mods on their suits and can equip full dci very easily.

<blockquote><hr>

The simple truth appears to be that you don't know how, or aren't equipped to deal with tamers, either that or you win most of your battles with them, but you can't stand the fact that you ever lose to them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Haha, I wondered when you'd resort back to the usual defense but seeing as I explained how this wasn't the case in a previous post I'll let you look for it. (not that you'll likely find it you haven't read half of whats said because like you so readily name call others when your arguments fail your ignorant.)

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And GOD, and Wenchy for that matter, if I don't ever respond to a specific point you have made it is generally for one of two reasons. Either it is so completely ridiculous, and you are so completely convinced that it isn't, that there is little point in arguing about it, or I have already discussed the point and you are simply repeating yourself, and again there is no chance I will ever be able to change your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Or more realistically you didn't read it because your ignorant. (you said I posted no facts on the same page that I posted them - wether you regard them as facts doesn't matter their still there)

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you are simply repeating yourself, and again there is no chance I will ever be able to change your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Repeating is because you were too ignorant to read it the first time. The reason you can't change our minds is because you are wrong.

<blockquote><hr>

I'll repeat myself for your sake

[/ QUOTE ]
Like I had to do with the facts I didn't post.

<blockquote><hr>

Yes pets have certain specials, including armour corruption, and fire breath, and yes they can combine them with spells and attacks, but players have access to many "specials" and skills that pets have no access to, including some that are incredibly powerful, and most of them are "combined" with some form of attack.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but no players specials do more than half of the dragons or the players hp.

<blockquote><hr>

DCI - defence chance increase
HCI - hit chance increase
HLA - hit lower attack
HLD - hit lower defence
Necromancy spells and their effects
Spellweaving spells and their effects
Chivalry spells and their effects
Bushido spells and their effects
Barding skills
Archery
All of the weapon special attacks (armour ignore, concussion hits, etc.)


[/ QUOTE ]

lol, right and what of those can two hit kill a player in full resists. Answer none of them because everything apart from overpowered pets has been capped/toned down/balanced.

<blockquote><hr>

As you can see, there are many spells, special attacks, and skills that pets have no access to

[/ QUOTE ]
We're not talking about attacks dragons don't have, we're talking about which is going to win in a fight player or dragon with the attacks they DO have and the answer everytime is dragon. As with everything else your trying to ignore the facts by clouding it with your speculation.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Which is exactly what I have been saying all along. If tamers truly were over powered, you would see a lot more of them, the way you did with bushido dexxers with lesser hiryus, or archers way back when, or the way you did/do with tamers on Siege. People aren't noble, they don't stay away from a particular template because they feel it is less noble, they naturally gravitate towards whatever is successful, and a pvp tamer, is a challenging, tough template to play, that is less successful in general than any of the regular "normal" pvp templates that I can think of, even with greater dragons and even without factoring in the fact that they can be targeted by an aggressive action with no consequences to the aggressor, in a way that no other class can - which was the point of this whole thread in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my, talk about twisting words to suit you own ends... You know full well the point I was making, but to avoid confusion I'll try again.

You are among a tiny group of tamers with a particular style of PvP. I didn't say there were just 1 or 2 tamers PvPing, just that they weren't a majority in the field. See the difference? There are enough PvP tamers, but the mainstay templates will always outnumber tamers and hey, that's ok. It'd be a farce if tamers were common, if only for the confusion as to which pets were on which side. I love my tamers and fighting with them, but I just don't want to see a sea of dragons in PvP.

Very few players see any merits to maintaining any PvP around Yew gate. Tamer or otherwise. So no, I don't think you've got much chance of getting what you want here, because folks just don't like fighting you. Or playing a template which ranks even lower than the usual tamer PvPer who fights in the open.

Wenchy