Please make discord an aggressive action that flags the bard.

[Guest]

But this is a PvP and fel issue. You can't disco someone else's pets in Tram unless in a warred guild.

It's only once a fight between the players begins that there's a "problem".

Otherwise this is just a case of messing around with bards for the sake of it. If you spill over into PvM in Tram with modifications to disco, it won't be pretty

I'm starting to feel glad I haven't nobbled a +20 music scroll for my 2 bards yet. LOL.

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

Yew gate is no more PvPing than standing inside one's own house casting spells. I might suck at PvP but at least I'm prepared to engage beyond the GZ.

[/ QUOTE ]
I spend plenty of time outside the guard zone when I am not outnumbered more than two to one, and even if I didn't, does that make me a better or worse pvp'r than anyone else, or less brave, or somehow less worthy of consideration when I make a suggestion? Not bloody likely...

<blockquote><hr>

Isn't the fact that bards are called in to deal with you, a wee hint that there's a problem fighting you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am successful, I don't say that to be obnoxious. I am far more successful than most pvp tamers I see at Yew gate, even now with greater dragons. Does the fact that I am successful with my chosen template somehow automatically mean I am over powered, or not worthy of consideration? I guess that would mean no one should listen to anyone when it comes to pvp, because there are successful pvp'rs with every template. Is everyone that decides to pvp with their tamer successful? Far from it, in fact, even now with greater dragons, I think you will find there are far fewer successful tamers in pvp than there are just about any other pvp template.

<blockquote><hr>

If I was a PvPer, I'd want to do the job myself rather than call in a namby-pamby bard to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good for you. You're quite skilled at dishing out the disdain, aren't you?

<blockquote><hr>

You want to fix bards so they can't interfere with your chosen kill methods, yet who is allowed to kill you?

[/ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how this applies to tamers any more than it applies to any template. Except that tamers are the only ones who can be targeted with an aggressive action in a guard zone with no recourse to defend themselves, and if they wish to defend themselves outside a guard zone, they are forced to take a murder count.

<blockquote><hr>

You already have a vast advantage in having a GZ to retreat to. None of the reds, blues or greys can attack you or your pets while you're in the GZ. Instead they're meant to wait till their number is up? Then they can try responding, but if you retreat to the GZ after a few hits, what are they meant to do?

[/ QUOTE ]
The vast majority, if not all of the reds I fight against, have houses (usually more than one) in and around Yew that they can and do retreat to. Again, I fail to see how that makes them any more noble or deserving of consideration than myself, or how I even have a tremendous advantage over them, especially when I am typically wildly outnumbered. And even if I weren't, a guard zone is simply part of the terrain. If you don't like it, save your pvp for spawns, but I don't even have that option, as again, I can't defend myself at a spawn against a bard, without taking a murder count.

<blockquote><hr>

I'm afraid I have no sympathy for you till you step out of the GZ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your sympathy is something that would find it hard to care less about. You want to disagree with me fine, you want to discuss issues reasonably and rationally, great; whether you feel any sympathy toward me or not, matters not even the slightest to me...

 

[imported_Gwendar-SP]

Please, Please, Please. If someone debuffed your pet it would be hostile and turn them grey yet discord which is far more damaging isn't.

<blockquote><hr>

For PvP, i could see this a viable action, for PvM....it'd make a bards life hell....

[/ QUOTE ]

What legitimate purpose would discording a person't pet serve in PvM?

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

And seeing as there are a lot more dexxers, mages and necros (a lot more of each) in pvp than there are tamers (with the exception of Seige), I guess that puts the lie to what you said about over powered pets.

[/ QUOTE ]

No not in the slightest, it's pretty much a given on any production shard that the tamer will die before the pet if the players try to gank the pet the tamer logs out and it's instantly saved. You think necro and mages are going to be able to do 900-1000 hp of damage while their bled/breathed for 50/meleed for 50? (ignoring the fact I'm giving rough numbers, it's usually more) As for dexxers, slayers don't work on the new dragons and you can't honor players pets.
TBH you should be thankful your getting away with JUST discord.

<blockquote><hr>

Perhaps the disarm move should be recoded so you can use it as a blue and not be flagged as an aggressor. The current situation with bards is roughly analogous to that

[/ QUOTE ]
No it isn't, it's nothing like it. No player being disarmed was doing over 100 damage in two hits or corrupting armor while stacking specials or casting without freezing.

<blockquote><hr>

only much worse because peace lasts much longer than the effects of a disarm move, and discord lasts as long as you have los between the bard and the pet...

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't about peace. It's not LOS it's range (you can lose LOS and stay in range). Even at 120/120 Music/Discord the effect wouldn't put a decent super dragon under 100 wrestle. I only bother mentioning wrestle as it's the only hit part that isn't garunteed where as spells and breath are. Seeing as other pets have been killing players with 100 wrestle for a long time I'm amazed any of you have the audacity to complain.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

But this is a PvP and fel issue. You can't disco someone else's pets in Tram unless in a warred guild

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not just talking about other people's pets here. Discord is an aggressive act and should be treated accordingly on all facets.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

I'm not just talking about other people's pets here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, but this is why theres a thread about it. The rest of the discussion is about bards sitting in guard zones discording players pets without flagging.

If discord is going to flag and as such bring bards in to fel as a viable template in PvP then I wan't provoke to have the ability to provoke tamers pets on their owner &amp; other players/pets.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

If discord is going to flag and as such bring bards in to fel as a viable template in PvP then I wan't provoke to have the ability to provoke tamers pets on their owner &amp; other players/pets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, that's another great idea. However, along with the idea of using discord and peace on players, it would have to be well thought out, implemented, and thoroughly tested to make sure it works as intended. As I see it a simple command could break the provoke, however, it would make sure that tamers kept close to their pets, even more than the pet ball changes will, and it would keep tamers on their toes. Honestly, I think it is a great idea. However it could get sticky figuring out flagging when it comes to pets that are provoked onto another player or tamer.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

If that was put in I'd happily agree to any flagging of bards with discord or w/e else.

They should be either fully implemented in to PvP or not at all... but yes as you say it'd need a whole lot of working out.

 

[Guest]

Just out of curiosity, do you play a bard with disco? Not just a tamer, because a tamer can get around some of the aggressor flagging by setting the pets in to kill and discording later.

To turn disco into as aggressive an act as provo is, with the timers and setup bards have already, would just lead to even more frustration. To what ends? Make bards more squishy? Less common? Well the latter is certainly do-able *grins*.

Why would you want to train a bard if there were more pitfalls than perks? It's much more attractive to train easier skills, with cheaper powerscrolls and do more damage. Barding isn't a particularly l337 template as it is, but even if we said ok, here's a few perks if you accept this change, what's the point in taking away some of the annoyances of being a bard, only to give them new ones?

Don't get me wrong, I see exactly where you're coming from, I just don't believe flagging bards makes for a fun game experience for the bard who is on the receiving end of the aggro

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

Actually, since ya ask, here's some pictures.
My bard is still working disco and you'll notice my tamer doesn't have any bard skills (no one ever believes me when I tell them that but here it is). I am also working a new bard, Falyn, and trying to figure out how to fit taming and lore onto her... which is why I am so interested in the conversation. I'd like to see changes in the way discord trains and if making the creatures aggro is part of the trade-off I'd like to see what others think about the idea.

 

[Guest]

No worries

My gut feeling is that it wouldn't be fun to add aggro to disco if you're a bard who can't use pets for the extra defence. Both my bards are tamers, but I love playing them as just bards as much as I do with pets in the mix. Other times I'll go weeks just on my non bard heh.

I think if the skill use timers were really pruned back, it would reduce the risks to a bard who is waiting to follow their disco with a provo. I'd take more risk from the aggro if I wasn't darting around for ages between the stages of a kill, trying to not invis for too long, or go out of range. It's just that the way things are right now, barding is kinda fun when it's going well, but it's not great. It could be so much more fun. Anything that gives the extra challenge should come along with a nice wee bonus IMO

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I think if the skill use timers were really pruned back, it would reduce the risks to a bard who is waiting to follow their disco with a provo.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is currently an exploit which allows a bard to bypass the timers on Peacemaking and Discordance, letting them reuse it in about 1 second. I have checked and this is not fixed on Test Center or from the current client patch. There are players who abuse both the reuse timer exploit and targetted peacemaking to make your pets completely unusable in combat. They should both be fixed.

 

[Guest]

Liawen is right a tamer wich discord or peace you
has to to get criminal flagged.

 

[Spree]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Discordance and Targeted Peacemaking should be criminal actions against a blue pet. This is a no brainier and should have been implemented almost 6 years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely!
Can you peace/disco a pet in Tramm? NO. Why not...BECAUSE it's an agressive act.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it called when you herd 30 Krins to the Spirit gate?

 

[imported_Lady_Love]

<blockquote><hr>

There is currently an exploit which allows a bard to bypass the timers on Peacemaking and Discordance, letting them reuse it in about 1 second. I have checked and this is not fixed on Test Center or from the current client patch. There are players who abuse both the reuse timer exploit and targetted peacemaking to make your pets completely unusable in combat. They should both be fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

What JC said.

In Felucca, Disco should flag the Bard.

 

[Gildar]

<blockquote><hr>

In Felucca, Disco should flag the Bard.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure I understand why Felucca is differenciated from Trammel.
Discording a creature is effectively cursing the creature. It should have the same flagging rules as any curse spells.

If there are training issues or something else with it that make discord overly difficult with such a flagging change without other changes, that should be addressed at the same time, but those issues shouldn't stop this kind of a change (delay so that those other issues can be addressed properly, sure, but not stop it entirely).

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

<blockquote><hr>

Liawen is right a tamer wich discord or peace you
has to to get criminal flagged.

[/ QUOTE ]

nah ... Wenckin is right ... even has some logic to back it.

Need to back up and look at the larger picture ... or else you'll fall into the same trap as I did.(made it out, thanks to Wenchkin)

Don't want to make it easier and safer for the GZ huggers ... now do we?

Actions FROM the GZ ... thats what should do the flagging ...

Those sitting in the GZ ... should (considering the location) be aware they're in danger of imminent attack ...
not be waiting for someone to say "whack me for free" ...

those fleeing into the GZ (particularly around a gate) ... should keep on going ...
those GZ's should only be safe as long as they KEEP GOING ... hardly time to turn around and "tease"
or provoke or disco ... guard zones shouldn't be THAT "safe"

huh?

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

rtlfc

<blockquote><hr>

It should have the same flagging rules as any curse spells.

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't a spell.
No skills flag other than stealing, which is the only skill that can be directly used on a player.

 

[imported_Lady_Love]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

In Felucca, Disco should flag the Bard.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure I understand why Felucca is differenciated from Trammel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am unfamiliar with Trammel rulesets, thus am not qualified to comment on PvM there.



[/ QUOTE ]Discording a creature is effectively cursing the creature.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. That is exactly why Disco'ing in Felucca needs to flag the Bard aggressor.

 

[Guest]

A fellow guildmember informed me that at one time Discordance was an aggressive action but had been removed. I didn't believe it until I tracked down the change myself:

http://www.uo.com/cgi-bin/newstools.pl?Article=9238

<blockquote><hr>

Reverted the change that made Discordance flag as an aggressor

[/ QUOTE ]
Why was this ever removed? It does not make sense!

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

A fellow guildmember informed me that at one time Discordance was an aggressive action but had been removed. I didn't believe it until I tracked down the change myself:

http://www.uo.com/cgi-bin/newstools.pl?Article=9238

<blockquote><hr>

Reverted the change that made Discordance flag as an aggressor

[/ QUOTE ]
Why was this ever removed? It does not make sense!

[/ QUOTE ]
Because the skill is simply too hard to work otherwise.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Discordance and Targeted Peacemaking should be criminal actions against a blue pet. This is a no brainier and should have been implemented almost 6 years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely!
Can you peace/disco a pet in Tramm? NO. Why not...BECAUSE it's an agressive act.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it called when you herd 30 Krins to the Spirit gate?

[/ QUOTE ]That would be called..."herding." *nod nod*

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I think if the skill use timers were really pruned back, it would reduce the risks to a bard who is waiting to follow their disco with a provo.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is currently an exploit which allows a bard to bypass the timers on Peacemaking and Discordance, letting them reuse it in about 1 second. I have checked and this is not fixed on Test Center or from the current client patch. There are players who abuse both the reuse timer exploit and targetted peacemaking to make your pets completely unusable in combat. They should both be fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't cheat so I'm talking about the actual intended delays, not the gimped ones used by cheating bards. Believe me, the intended ones certainly don't allow instant re-use. Now I don't expect you're in the least bit concerned whether a bard can have fun or not, but I am.

How about we give you that flagging you so desperately want, but remove the gate GZ's. Happy?

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

A discording bard benefits neither solely nor directly for having discorded a critter (wild or tame).

It's only agressive *if* the bard backs it up with a subsequent aggressive action.

 

[imported_Lady_Love]

<blockquote><hr>

A discording bard benefits neither solely nor directly for having discorded a critter (wild or tame).

[/ QUOTE ]

In Trammel, can a Bard Entice ... er Disco ... your pet (on a whim) without consequence?

Viola, welcome to Felucca.

This is exactly why Disco'ing in Felucca is, in and of itself, an aggressive act.

 

[themaster879]

As long as they dont mess with disco in tram im fine with them making it an aggro act.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

A discording bard benefits neither solely nor directly for having discorded a critter (wild or tame).

[/ QUOTE ]

In Trammel, can a Bard Entice ... er Disco ... your pet (on a whim) without consequence?

Viola, welcome to Felucca.

This is exactly why Disco'ing in Felucca is, in and of itself, an aggressive act.

[/ QUOTE ]No, it isn't. You see, discord, in and of itself, does no damage.

Your assumption that I'm a stranger to Felucca is inaccurate.

As it happens, I xferred a pvp tamer char with soulstones containing various complimentary skills (some bardic) to Atlantic some time ago ostensibly to take part in the much discussed faction event. I returned to Europa only after some weeks when it was clear there was still no start date nor one even on the horizon.

When and if that faction event does transpire, and provided, of course, you &amp; HOT are participating, then perhaps our paths will cross, Lady_Love. *smiles*

Given that your stated location is "Oaks Spawn," would I be far off the mark in thinking that your beef with discord stems from the odd bard or two perched upon the not so far away GZ?

 

[Guest]

Yes, Felucca is a land of consequences. Those consequences should also affect the tamer who won't leave the GZ, yet expects to be able to kill reds. Aye?

I note that not one of the "disco should flag" supporters have come up with a method we can use to defeat their attacks. Only nuking the current countermeasure of a bard.

If you want the flagging, I'd suggest coming up with a suitable way of balancing that GZ hugger so they experience the risks of Fel as the rest of us do. Might be nice if, y'know, you thought about possible side effects for PvM bards, but I'm not holding my breath there.

Wenchy

 

[mmmbeer05]

STUPID IDEA

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

No, it isn't. You see, discord, in and of itself, does no damage.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Paralyze spell also does no damage, yet that is an aggressive act.

 

[Guest]

I'm still curious though, if the devs pander to your wishes, how is one supposed to deal with a GZ hugging tamer?

If you were fighting that tamer, and you can't use disco, you can't directly attack them with the GZ, you can't effectively do a whole lot at all. How would you return fire?

Because this whole argument of "make disco aggressive" falls flat on its face while that setup still exists.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

JC, the para spell is aggressive because it inhibits movement, or at least it *can* in those lacking sufficient magic resist skill.

Wenchy's points are valid and (at least so far as I've seen thus far), they remain unaddressed, too.

Whilst gz's remain, discord is pretty much the only effective deterrent and/ or countermeasure to gz-hugging tamers. As a tamer who hunts, does peerless and champ spawns in Felucca as well as in Trammel ruleset facets (counts permitting), quite frankly, I like that balance.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

The Paralyze spell also does no damage, yet that is an aggressive act.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but Discordance isn't a spell, it's a skill.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

Whilst gz's remain, discord is pretty much the only effective deterrent and/ or countermeasure to gz-hugging tamers.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, that is not a terribly fair or logical argument. You could say the same thing about house hiding reds, or gz-hugging mages, or gz-hugging dexxers, or guard-zone hugging necros. Where is the "effective deterrent" against them? In fact, when I am in Felucca at Yew gate, the other templates "gz-hugging" tend to outnumber the tamers by a factor of ten to one, and they are far more likely to be the ones running out and suckering reds into attacks so they can dart back into the guard zone and get them guard whacked. Other templates tend to be far more mobile than tamer templates, especially those with greater dragons, so they are far more able, and likely, to use that tactic (one which I generally despise - I'm not perfect, I have biases as well

).

The fact remains that tamers are the only template that can be targeted with negative actions inside a guard zone with no consequences to the attacker, and outside of guard zones if they wish to do anything about the attack, they are forced to take a murder count.

All this goes back to the idea that somehow tamers are less honourable, or less skilled, or more powerful in pvp than any other template, and therefore should be punished in some way, which is complete nonsense. Even now with greater dragons, there are far fewer tamers in pvp on my shard than just about any other template, and I don't see the tamers doing any better than any other template on average. Before greater dragons tamers, on average, faired much worse in pvp than just about any other template, it seems to have evened out a bit, but even now, I don't see tamers, in general, dominating in pvp.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

If bards are going to be a viable option in fel as tamers are then they should be implemented fully or not at all &amp; that means provoking your pets on each other &amp; the tamer &amp; other players.

You can't just pick one aspect of bards to be changed in PvP because it says loud and clear that you don't want there to be an anti-tamer template.

It's all or nothing.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

If bards are going to be a viable option in fel as tamers are then they should be implemented fully or not at all &amp; that means provoking your pets on each other &amp; the tamer &amp; other players.

You can't just pick one aspect of bards to be changed in PvP because it says loud and clear that you don't want there to be an anti-tamer template.

It's all or nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of other changes that could be looked at with regard to bards in pvp, to make them more useful, and more fun to play, but they will require a great deal of thought, planning and testing. This is one small change that addresses what is, in my mind, a very specific abuse, and that should be implemented as soon as possible, without waiting for a massive overhaul of bards with regard to pvp.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

No other skill other than Stealing which is done on the player flags, no reason Discord should when it's done on a pet, it's not like the pet is going to call guards. If players were Discordable I'd agree, but their not so I don't.

 

[Guest]

Please, let's not start playing the poor tamer victim.

But to work with the examples of the mage and dexxer. They have a limit of how far they can throw spells or arrows, while staying inside the GZ. They have to get out there if their victim runs.

A tamer has pets. Those pets can go do the damage but the tamer can retreat to GZ while that damage is still being dealt out. Now the pets are at risk, but as the controller of those pets, you can sit pretty.

There are differences to tamers and mages/dexxers in GZ hugging. It's not pretty whoever does it, but you have a much better reach then the mage or warrior. Unless I can fire arrows a few screens distance and I hadn't noticed...

House hiding could be addressed, but I'm not sure the devs would risk the crying fallout.

Now, lets get back to business. How does one kill a player who legs it into GZ while his pets are still out doing the fighting? Then we can discuss aggression flags. GZ should not be a defensive shield for any skill, but your pets have that extra edge and I'm not going to agree to an aggressor flag without a bit of give on your side.

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

No other skill other than Stealing which is done on the player flags...

[/ QUOTE ]
Last I checked magery, necromancy, swordsmanship, fencing, macing and archery were all skills which can target a player negatively and will result in being flagged, and I'm sure I've missed a few...

<blockquote><hr>

Please, let's not start playing the poor tamer victim.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a very mature sounding way of saying, "Let's ignore what's being said because we disagree with it..."

<blockquote><hr>

But to work with the examples of the mage and dexxer. They have a limit of how far they can throw spells or arrows, while staying inside the GZ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Last I checked as soon as a tamer attacks with pets that tamer is flagged aggressor and can be attacked inside the guard zone...

<blockquote><hr>

How does one kill a player who legs it into GZ while his pets are still out doing the fighting?

[/ QUOTE ]I'll repeat myself, last I checked as soon as a tamer attacks with pets that tamer is flagged aggressor and can be attacked inside the guard zone. If a someone attacks any blue character outside a guard zone, they all have the option of running to a guard zone if there is one near. If you attack someone, you should be prepared to face the consequences. And beyond that, the only pet that can survive fairly well fighting on it's own is the greater dragon, and they are remarkably easy to outrun, I know, I've been chased by them more than once, and I am always on foot, and even a greater dragon can be killed if it is left alone by it's master for too long a period.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

Last I checked magery, necromancy, swordsmanship, fencing, macing and archery were all skills which can target a player negatively...

[/ QUOTE ]
The skills themselfs are not useable on players, the spells are, the act of going in war mode &amp; attacking is. Discord is not useable on players. Stealing is useable on players.
Their not directly negative skills, neither is discord, stealing is. You don't click the blue gem next to magery and target a player you click spells and target the player.

<blockquote><hr>

That's a very mature sounding way of saying, "Let's ignore what's being said because we disagree with it..."

[/ QUOTE ]
No it's a mature way of saying tamers have it easy enough so stop crying that theres one barely used way to counter it.

<blockquote><hr>

Last I checked as soon as a tamer attacks with pets that tamer is flagged aggressor and can be attacked inside the guard zone...

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should extend your checking to include how many spells you can get off on a tamer sitting in guard zone while staying in range while his pet does bleed/breath/spells with no freeze/melee all over you.
It was your silly example to bring up casters/dexxer as if their in anyway a counter to tamers shrugging it off when someone replies to it isn't (by your own apparent standards)very mature.

<blockquote><hr>

I'll repeat myself, last I checked as soon as a tamer attacks with pets that tamer is flagged aggressor and can be attacked inside the guard zone. If a someone attacks any blue character outside a guard zone, they all have the option of running to a guard zone if there is one near. If you attack someone, you should be prepared to face the consequences.

[/ QUOTE ]
We'll repeat ourselfs too then, YOU made a point that an assortment of necros/mages/dexxers can counter the pets commenting specifically that there are so many more of them than there are tamers. If the tamer flags on one person and sits in guard zones all those other people can't attack, just the person hes flagged on. That one person probably isn't going to be able to kill the pets before the pets and tamer have killed him. That one person isn't likely to be able to kill the tamer with the pets attacking him, least of all because a tamers suit has no actual requirements so is fairly easy to build all 70's corpse proof 45 dci etc etc. Unless the tamer flags on multiple people (which if their fighting from the guard zone would assume they have more sense than that) their not going to die.

Despite all that if you pretend for a minute that the player does actually manage to kill the tamer (which is usually more likely than the pets), the tamer can log out and his pets are instantly saved. With all that in mind any suggestion to lower pet effectiveness - I say lower because most pets are so retardedly over powered compared to player that they can still land enough spells/specials/breath for a kill even while discorded - is probably comparable to asking for one hit kill wod archers to be un-nerfed.

 

[Llewen]

So what this all comes down to is that you think tamers are over powered in pvp, and I happen to disagree with you. Is there any chance that you normally play Seige? On Seige tamers are over powered. I don't think there is any denying that. One of the strongest indications of that is how many pvp tamers there are on Seige.

Please don't confuse Seige with regular shards, the different rules sets mean that the situation with tamers on regular shards is entirely different. It's pretty easy to see which template is over powered by the numbers playing that template, and the numbers of tamers in pvp on regular shards don't support what you are saying, and that even takes into account that there are more tamers in pvp than there used to be, due to the new dragon (ie. you look at a group of twenty pvp'rs, you will probably see two or three tamers, at the most, and the rest will be mages, archers and dexxers).

My guess is that tamers in general still don't do as well as other templates in pvp, and that difference is going to become even more pronounced after the changes to pet balls.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

That's a very mature sounding way of saying, "Let's ignore what's being said because we disagree with it..."

[/ QUOTE ]
No, just the quick way of saying don't fight in the GZ if you are worried what other PvPers think of it. Don't complain and act like a victim when you're using the GZ as a shield without the balances a tamer would have in the open. If you PvP with a tamer, you should by now have accepted that most PvPers aren't tamer fans. If you're worried what others think of you, don't use your PvP tamer in the GZ so often.

<blockquote><hr>

Last I checked as soon as a tamer attacks with pets that tamer is flagged aggressor and can be attacked inside the guard zone...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, but guess what...only by the person they attacked. Who has to get round your pets and back to you before they can kill the pet controller. Without that GZ you'd be ganked silly, but the GZ protects you. You can pick the targets, knowing full well that others are going to be whacked if they attack you inside the GZ.

<blockquote><hr>

I'll repeat myself, last I checked as soon as a tamer attacks with pets that tamer is flagged aggressor and can be attacked inside the guard zone. If a someone attacks any blue character outside a guard zone, they all have the option of running to a guard zone if there is one near. If you attack someone, you should be prepared to face the consequences. And beyond that, the only pet that can survive fairly well fighting on it's own is the greater dragon, and they are remarkably easy to outrun, I know, I've been chased by them more than once, and I am always on foot, and even a greater dragon can be killed if it is left alone by it's master for too long a period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm, I am a tamer... thought you knew that by now. I do know about pets needing to be taken care of in battle, thank you. Now, to explain the difference between the mage/archer and tamer here, my archer can't fling arrows to keep pursuing an enemy a few screens away, whilst retreating to GZ if needed and being able to summon that weapon back. No, the archer and mage, necro etc have a radius of damage. They have to pursue their enemies themselves to keep up the damage. You can choose your level of risk and call those pets back. Rinse and repeat. It sure worked wonders for the last tamer I found doing it.

So, for the sake of balance, let's remove the gate GZs. No GZ hugging for any template. Deal with house hiders. All tamers would play with the same balances in PvP and bards wouldn't have to step in to add a bit of balance. You can make me flag purple with yellow spots if it makes you happy.

But while you have that safety net, you need a countermeasure. I'm not going to roll over and let a tiny handful of tamers add flagging and related side effects to bards just to suit you. I don't think you give a monkeys if we got lumbered with any unwanted issues here. You just want bards flagging. Sorry, the current setup means I can't agree with you.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

RTL

I must reiterate here...
No one is suggesting that they take away the ability of the bard to discord the pets.
The suggestion is simply that the bard become grey when doing so.
One would still be able to do the same act of discordance. One would simply have to be more selective in their approach.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

So what this all comes down to is that you think tamers are over powered in pvp, and I happen to disagree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Other than you I've never seen anyone think pets aren't overpowered in PvP or PvM. Theres a reason their reffered to as meat shields.
Other than Paroxysmus' &amp; Shadow Elementals what can't you kill with pets? With little to no danger to your character, self healing pets, pets that armor corrupt, pets that have OTT stats/resists/skills (super dragons).

You've had new pet after new pet with new abilities and strengths and are you happy, no, it's not good enough that your pets rarely die and can kill easily you now want there to be changes to other skills to make your time as a tamer easier? Hell no.

<blockquote><hr>

Is there any chance that you normally play Seige? On Seige tamers are over powered. I don't think there is any denying that. One of the strongest indications of that is how many pvp tamers there are on Seige.

[/ QUOTE ]
No I don't normally play on Siege but I have seen Siege several times and theres more Tamers on Atlantic.

<blockquote><hr>

Please don't confuse Seige with regular shards

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not confusing anything, your confusing bards with a profession thats had something worthwhile in the last 8 years. Tamers flat out have no grounds to make any demands on the bard skills or abilities.

<blockquote><hr>

My guess is that tamers in general still don't do as well as other templates in pvp, and that difference is going to become even more pronounced after the changes to pet balls.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your guess is pretty far off the reality of it.
Tamers haven't been overpowered since the dragon they've been overpowered forever, it wasn't that long ago there were a whole bunch of nerfs to nerve strike/hiryus (&amp; yes I mean the greaters), changes to armor corruption because it used to drop resists to 0?... You don't think the ability to drop someones resists to 0 is overpowered? For 3 control slots?!?! While dp/bleeding and casting spells on the move?!?!?

 

[Guest]

I understand that the call is just for flagging, but I'm not willing to take all the potential side effects just for some tamers fighting at Yew gate. Not without the GZ drop, which would balance the problem perfectly. Then I'll flag and take the penalties, no worries. But if you'd seen the last few tamers I encountered there, you'd see the need for disco to remain unchanged while GZs stand round moongates. Disco needs to stay as is until the devs make some changes.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Discordance and Targeted Peacemaking should be criminal actions against a blue pet. This is a no brainier and should have been implemented almost 6 years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely!
Can you peace/disco a pet in Tramm? NO. Why not...BECAUSE it's an agressive act.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is it called when you herd 30 Krins to the Spirit gate?

[/ QUOTE ]
Damn Funny?
Come on herding takes not only skill points but time as well (target animal/target self/repeat several dozen times..lets also not forget you need to not get stuck in your herd)

 

[Guest]

*waits for screams of "Nerf the shepherds"*

 

[Llewen]

rtlfc

This desperately needs to be changed...

 

[Karthcove]

Agreed. Using discord is an aggressive action. Makes complete sense.

 

[imported_Gwendar-SP]

<blockquote><hr>

Agreed. Using discord is an aggressive action. Makes complete sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sure is. Far more hostile than a debuff spell.