Not another whine about pets and PvP... sorta

[Llewen]

If you know anything about taming you would realize that training a skill like magery on a pet, from 99.9 to 100, can take as much as an hour or two.

Bull****!

I use a dreadmare bush tamer in PvP alot, when he dies, within about 10minutes of fighting he is back to 7xgm and Thats PvP so hes not even fighting flat out for 10mins!

Sometimes you get lucky, but perhaps you aren't as obsessive about these things as I am and don't pay as close attention. There have been plenty of times I have had to train a pet for more than an hour to gain back that last .1 in magery.

On these stupid flagging issues, why is it that if a blue flags on me...i dismount him with a no-dachi, i can be guardwhacked because his pet wasn't flagged!

Now thats a stupid ****ed up rule!

Well that is a separate issue, and not the one that is being discussed in this thread, although it is somewhat related. There have always been code problems with pets and flagging, and yes, we'd all like to see all of those fixed.

 

[o2bavr6]

Bull****!

I use a dreadmare bush tamer in PvP alot, when he dies, within about 10minutes of fighting he is back to 7xgm and Thats PvP so hes not even fighting flat out for 10mins!

On these stupid flagging issues, why is it that if a blue flags on me...i dismount him with a no-dachi, i can be guardwhacked because his pet wasn't flagged!

Now thats a stupid ****ed up rule!

So true...
Or if i attack a grey and we fight for a while and then i sick a summon on him, i get flagged. Just as dumb

 

[o2bavr6]

As I said other times, a long time ago, this discussion is rarely about fairness, or game balance, it's about the fact that tamers annoy you, and you don't want to ever lose to them, no matter how skilled, or intelligent they are. And if you are like many of the tamer haters I've seen post, you don't even want to lose if you are outnumbered ten to one by tamers, you simply want tamers out of the game, period.

Actually you could not be more wrong. Yes I don't care for pets being used in PvP, but they are part of the game so I deal with it.

And wrong I didn't just finish dying to a pet and came here to post in frustration.

It was purely an observation that has been nagging at me for a long time and I was curious if I was the only one who felt that way.

Remember a while back when a tamer would get off his dread horse and if someone paralyzed it, the owner could just mount it and ride away. That was a bug but was around for a long time. Should they not have fixed that? Well they did fix it.

I've already addressed that. I'll try to spell it out so that you can understand it. If a tamer's pet dies it loses stats. It may not be much, but if you know anything about the game you would realize that the difference between a skill at 99.9 and 100 is actually significant. Beyond that, it doesn't take too many pet deaths before your pet skills are suddenly at 96.3, or 94.8. And this stat loss applies to every skill the pet has.

If you read my posts thoroughly you would see that I said they should remove stat and skill loss for pets upon death... or did you just chose to ignore that part of the post?

This thread is just another, thinly veiled, "I hate tamers" thread. o2bavr6 was excited by the thought that he might have discovered a logically unassailable way to attack tamers. The truth is he hasn't, and I am simply pointing that out. Having said that, I really don't know what I think of the idea. I'd have to think about it more. But the issues isn't as clear cut and simple as you and o2bavr6 would like everyone to think that it is. As is most often the case, there is an opposing argument to be made.

As I said you could not be more wrong, in fact I can say that this is your way of covering up the fact that you have no true rebuttal to our argument, so you say "we hate tamer... bla bla bla"

You say that pets don't "follow the rules". Fine. I have no problem with making them follow all of the rules that players follow. Make them follow all the flagging rules, spell casting rules and line of sight rules. Give the player full control over all of their attacks, spells and abilities (whether directly or the ability to customize or "train", combat behaviour in some way), and make them move as fast as a player. It would make playing a pvp tamer more challenging and fun, and frankly, I think it would give you a whole lot more to complain about.

I would be perfectly fine with you being able to chose the spells it casts or how it attacks so long as the pet has to follow the same line of site rules, fc and fcr rules as well as casting distance rules that players have to adhere to.

 

[o2bavr6]

Beyond that, it doesn't take too many pet deaths before your pet skills are suddenly at 96.3, or 94.8. And this stat loss applies to every skill the pet has.

BTW you don't hear me complaining about how EA nerfed the magic resist skill.

What do I mean by that? Well I've been playing since 1997 and in 1997/98 it was almost impossible to gm magic resist. it took almost 2 years to do so. Then EA nerfs it but we had to deal with all that time spent being lost in 1 second.

And what about the bug with eval int that wouldn't let you get about 96 eval for more than 2 years, yet we dealt with that as well.

In the end you use a weapon that does more damage per hit than any other template. It has no limit to its casting/recovery speed. it has almost no limit to the distance it can cast a spell. it can cast spells and do specials at the same time as well ass melee damage. Am I missing anything?

All I am asking for is for pets in Fel to follow the same rules as players in PvP and remove skill and stat loss for pets upon death.

edit: by rules i mean the flee of battle rules disallowing recall or house entry or logging out to save ones self.

 

[o2bavr6]

As I said other times, a long time ago, this discussion is rarely about fairness, or game balance, it's about the fact that tamers annoy you, and you don't want to ever lose to them, no matter how skilled, or intelligent they are. And if you are like many of the tamer haters I've seen post, you don't even want to lose if you are outnumbered ten to one by tamers, you simply want tamers out of the game, period.

Let me ask you this, forget about battle scenarios here for a sec.

Why is it that if I am in the wilderness somewhere out of guard zone and I log out on the spot, my character will stay there for 5 minutes until he times out?

Yet you can have your dragon in the wilderness out of guard zone and insta log him out.

And you find this fair and balanced?

 

[Llewen]

BTW you don't hear me complaining about how EA nerfed the magic resist skill.

What do I mean by that? Well I've been playing since 1997 and in 1997/98 it was almost impossible to gm magic resist. it took almost 2 years to do so. Then EA nerfs it but we had to deal with all that time spent being lost in 1 second.

And what about the bug with eval int that wouldn't let you get about 96 eval for more than 2 years, yet we dealt with that as well.

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at, but yes, everyone that played through that went through the same thing. When I came back after being away for four years a few years ago, all my characters were basically nubs. The skills that had taken me years of game play to gain, were at about the level it would take someone a week or two at most to gain now, and that would be without training intensively.

In the end you use a weapon that does more damage per hit than any other template. It has no limit to its casting/recovery speed. it has almost no limit to the distance it can cast a spell. it can cast spells and do specials at the same time as well ass melee damage. Am I missing anything?

Yes you are missing something, the forest for the trees. The fact is that there are many many other templates that can kill faster than a tamer can, in both pvp and pvm, so something must be screwed up with your statement. You say that pets do "more damage per hit" than any other template but the fact remains that an advanced sampire can solo any peerless faster than any equally advanced tamer template. And the same applies to pvp.

Right now tamers are pretty popular in pvp, but the truth is that there are many other templates that are more effective in pvp than any tamer template. I think tamers are fun to play, and others obviously agree with me, but part of the reason I enjoy playing them is precisely because they aren't "uber". They are a challenge to play. The most challenging template I have ever played in fact.

So regardless of whether you can point to an individual hit and say such and such a pet can do "x" amount of damage, the fact is that overall a tamer template, with any pet, is almost never the most effective or efficient template choice, in just about any game context.

Pets don't have ssi.
Pets don't have dci or hci.
Pets don't use any of the bushido, chivalry, necro or spellweaving spells, and even if they did, they wouldn't use them intelligently.
Pets can't switch weapons to match damage type to resistance.
Pets don't have any of the leach abilities.

And that is only a partial list of the limitations that pets already have.

All I am asking for is for pets in Fel to follow the same rules as players in PvP and remove skill and stat loss for pets upon death.

On this we agree. If the devs were to get rid of stat loss for pets, I would have no problem whatsoever with them making pets follow all of the flagging rules.

 

[Llewen]

Why is it that if I am in the wilderness somewhere out of guard zone and I log out on the spot, my character will stay there for 5 minutes until he times out?

Yet you can have your dragon in the wilderness out of guard zone and insta log him out.

And you find this fair and balanced?

What this has to do with your op I don't know. This is something altogether different, and yes there is a very good reason for this. Pets have something called loyalty, and if they are out of range of their owner, they lose loyalty quite fast.

Beyond that, it is entirely possible for anyone to "insta log" in wilderness areas. All you have to do is build a fire and use a bed roll. Perhaps the same thing should apply to pets. I've always thought camp fires were fun, and it is a shame that they rarely get used.

Loyalty is still an issue, but if stat loss was removed for pets, I don't think I would have any problem with this sort of change.

 

[Splup]

Pets don't have ssi.
Pets don't have dci or hci.
Pets don't use any of the bushido, chivalry, necro or spellweaving spells, and even if they did, they wouldn't use them intelligently.
Pets can't switch weapons to match damage type to resistance.
Pets don't have any of the leach abilities.

And that is only a partial list of the limitations that pets already have.

And still they can cast faster then my 2/6 mage. With all my DCI, MR, LMC, SDI, Parrying, inscription I stand no chance standing next to pets no to mention trying to out dmg em. Actually they can pretty much instakill my legendary parrying all 70s char if their combo hits right.

So why does that list make it any more balanced?

 

[o2bavr6]

On this we agree. If the devs were to get rid of stat loss for pets, I would have no problem whatsoever with them making pets follow all of the flagging rules.

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing if you had read post #12 stating that pets should not lose skill or stats in pvp upon death!!!

As I said before, I am not here asking to nerf the template or complaining about how powerful they are.

All I want to see is pets have to follow the same flagging rules as players and as stated many times, no stat/skill loss upon death.

Nice and simple and fair and balanced.... no?

 

[RichDC]

You say that pets do "more damage per hit" than any other template but the fact remains that an advanced sampire can solo any peerless faster than any equally advanced tamer template. And the same applies to pvp.

Ok just gonna pick up on a few things in your post...about all i could be bothered to read after the bolded bit!

You have just proven to anyone and everyone who has ever PvP'd that you know NOTHING about PvP!

There is no limitation to damage a sampire(save the 300%DI cap) can achieve on a peerless...the most powerful hitting dexxer will be capped at 35(save a few exceptions). A GD(pre nerf) could hit for 50-60 per bit while bleeding and casting an 80 Firebreath...thats 130-140hp in what...2s?

A bok wielding dreadmare using tamer can hit for 40ish nervestrike(with the hit spell) then dismount with pet hitting for 40 and casting a 40+ firebreath(oh and if the roll goes another 40ish nervestrike) all in the matter of seconds!
There is NO other template that can dish out that much damage as quickly!

 

[RichDC]

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing if you had ready my 4th or 5th post stating that pets should not lose skill or stats in pvp upon death!!!

As I said before, I am not here asking to nerf the template or complaining about how powerful they are.

All I want to see is pets have to follow the same flagging rules as players and as stated many times, no stat/skill loss upon death.

Nice and simple and fair and balanced.... no?

No

Flagging rules yes, pet skill loss increased to .2-.5 depending on whom res's.

If you res yourself 0.2 loss, if someone else does 0.5 loss.

(oh btw i play a tamer alot)

 

[Llewen]

On this we agree. If the devs were to get rid of stat loss for pets, I would have no problem whatsoever with them making pets follow all of the flagging rules.

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing if you had ready my 4th or 5th post stating that pets should not lose skill or stats in pvp upon death!!!

All I want to see is pets have to follow the same flagging rules as players and as stated many times, no stat/skill loss upon death.

My apologies, I must have missed that. Yes you have my full support, and I take back all the nasty things I said about you...

Pets don't have ssi.
Pets don't have dci or hci.
Pets don't use any of the bushido, chivalry, necro or spellweaving spells, and even if they did, they wouldn't use them intelligently.
Pets can't switch weapons to match damage type to resistance.
Pets don't have any of the leach abilities.

And that is only a partial list of the limitations that pets already have.

And still they can cast faster then my 2/6 mage. With all my DCI, MR, LMC, SDI, Parrying, inscription I stand no chance standing next to pets no to mention trying to out dmg em. Actually they can pretty much instakill my legendary parrying all 70s char if their combo hits right.

So why does that list make it any more balanced?

Of course, if you sit there and let a greater dragon, or some other nasty pet combination wail on you, you are going to lose. I've said this many times before, fighting a tamer, especially a skilled tamer, requires you to change your tactics. You can't fight a tamer the way you fight a dexxer, or a mage. That is true of any template. No offence intended, if you are consistently being beaten in fair fights (ie. not outnumbered) by tamers, you are doing something wrong.

 

[Splup]

Of course, if you sit there and let a greater dragon, or some other nasty pet combination wail on you, you are going to lose. I've said this many times before, fighting a tamer, especially a skilled tamer, requires you to change your tactics. You can't fight a tamer the way you fight a dexxer, or a mage. That is true of any template. No offence intended, if you are consistently being beaten in fair fights (ie. not outnumbered) by tamers, you are doing something wrong.

My point was that the fact that pets have no ssi etc. has nothing to do with anything. They don't obey the same rules players do, they don't have the limitations players do. So them not having the same mods has kinda no effect on anything...

My point was not to say that I stand next to greater dragon trying to harm spam it to death.

 

[RichDC]

No offence intended, if you are consistently being beaten in fair fights (ie. not outnumbered) by tamers, you are doing something wrong.

Im sorry but i think you completely misunderstand just how powerful dexxer tamer/mage tamer templates are when played properly!

A bad tamer will use his pet as a tank, a decent tamer will use his pet for kill shots and a great tamer wont even use the pet unless outnumbered!

I know of many tamer templates that are stupidly effective and you will CONSTANTLY die to them because of how they are played.

 

[Lynk]

So the faction system where a large number of people mod thier clients and run the latest speedhack so that when they do get dismounted thier still nearly as fast as the mounted people chasing em is the only "real" pvp system left in place? Haha, many of these players base thier whole playstyle on being able to illegitimately run faster than thier opponents.

Check your tag and cut the hypocrisy, you are seriously making me sick with this horse ****.

99 percent of the templates are trash archers speeding off for the repeat dice roll.

Again, check your tag before you cry about this.

I just LOVE how you always take this anti-cheater stance. Just give it a rest dude.

How does everyone else look from high up on your non-faction horse?

 

[dukarlo]

Check your tag and cut the hypocrisy, you are seriously making me sick with this horse ****.




Again, check your tag before you cry about this.

I just LOVE how you always take this anti-cheater stance. Just give it a rest dude.

How does everyone else look from high up on your non-faction horse?

Oh please. Im the bad guy because i dont accept the fact that everyone and thier little sister are bouncing all over the place? I call out a guy whos crying because someone actually catches him and dismounts him and hes crying because he cant res his pet with zero skill in vet so he can keep on bouncing away? When did our expectations get so low for EA that we accept speedhacking as part of the game. There are people in every guild speedhacking. Ive never once claimed noone in mine did. Its a sad fact that it has become the norm for entire guilds, every guild has some that do but no guild is immune to it. I can say my conscience is clear and I dontspeedhack and I still do ok despite the dasadvantage. I think it would be hilarious if it was removed from the game at least for a while just to see how sad certain players become. How am i a hypocrit if fixing speedhacking would fix the players in my guild your pancakes about too?

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Llewen,

...
Yet you can have your dragon in the wilderness out of guard zone and insta log him out....

This is all this request to nerf tamers is about.

The ability to make sure that if they use the hack to crash their tamer opponent to the desk top, they can not only kill the tamer, they can kill the tamers pet.

What difference does it make to them if in PvM the player gets a disconnected and the player gets Killed and NOW the pet gets killed, it is after all just an enhancement to the Giggle Factor for the "I hate tamers and want them removed from the game"

And of course the rebuttal will be NO ONE EVER GETS DISCONNECTED FROM THE GAME.

That the PET NEVER EVER RUNS OFF DUE TO A GAME BUG AND THE ONLY WAY TO GET IT BACK IS TO LOG OFF.

Just another clever scam, cover the "I HATE TAMERS AND WANT THEM GONE" with enough fig leaf's to make it look like an innocent post.

And to get the opportunity to make it look like "Oh gee wiz, I want to go PvMing and make sure I get to kill that Pet err ooops Mob", as though that is all it is about, a closeted PvMr trying to get out.

 

[o2bavr6]

This is all this request to nerf tamers is about.

The ability to make sure that is they use the hack to crash their tamer opponent, they can not only kill the tamer, they can kill the tamers pet.

What difference does it make to them if in PvM the player gets a disconnected and the player gets Killed and NOW the pet gets killed, it is after all just an enhancement to the Giggle Factor for the "I hate tamers and want them removed from the game"

And of course the rebuttal will be NO ONE EVER GETS DISCONNECTED FROM THE GAME.

That the PET NEVER EVER RUNS OFF DUE TO A GAME BUG AND THE ONLY WAY TO GET IT BACK IS TO LOG OFF.

We are talking about Fel not Tram.

Also the main heart of the debate is simple:
I say that if a pet is an agressor the tamer should not be able to log out or use a pet ball to summon it away.. in essence saving it from sure death.

Any other template can not leave when in flee of battle, so why should a pet be any different?

And also keep in mind that i also propose they remove stat/skill loss upon death for pets in Fel.

Is this such a bad idea?

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

We are talking about Fel not Tram.

Also the main heart of the debate is simple:
I say that if a pet is an agressor the tamer should not be able to log out or use a pet ball to summon it away.. in essence saving it from sure death.

Any other template can not leave when in flee of battle, so why should a pet be any different?

And also keep in mind that i also propose they remove stat/skill loss upon death for pets in Fel.

Is this such a bad idea?

Yes, because ...

...
Yet you can have your dragon in the wilderness out of guard zone and insta log him out....

The quote is NOT Felluca specific, it reveals the true intent doesn't it. To make sure that any reason the Tamer leaves the game, that the Pet is fair game for you or the Mob the tamer was fighting.

It certainly wont make any difference to you if the reason is NOT related to the player taking some action. In the end that just makes it even better doesn't it? *Your chance to address the core reason this is the way it is*

From my perspective the mentioned Fig Leaves are the argument of "oh look at me, all I am asking for is the innocent request of taking the time to code flags on the pet, that is fair isn't it".

It is NEVER EVER that simple with UO.

It is NEVER EVER that contained.

It ALWAYS IS MORE THAN WANTED by anyone you, me or anyone else.

Lets do it your way, here is a perfectly innocent fig leaf, "You would not be advocating that if the defender in PvP uses a Cheat, Hack to crash the Aggressor's client to the desktop, that they be rewarded with being able to kill the Tamer and the Pet would you? If not then how does your proposition NOT reward the cheater and punish the honest player"

I mean to say, isn't it enough that the cheat/hack allows you to kill the honest tamer? Do you really need to kill the pet as well?

And what exactly was Noto PKing? Only to point you to a similar scenario of abuse of a system.

 

[G.v.P]

Everyone just needs to get two bonded gargoyle pets, problem solved UO becomes Tamers Online ;D

 

[Lynk]

How am i a hypocrit if fixing speedhacking would fix the players in my guild your pancakes about too?

You're a hypocrit because you cry about these people constantly, but then log into vent and fight with them.

I am not pancakes about them, we just coordinate our offense so they don't get the option to run away. Perfect example is how often Hyatt gets synced on when he shows his face.

 

[Llewen]

My point was that the fact that pets have no ssi etc. has nothing to do with anything. They don't obey the same rules players do, they don't have the limitations players do. So them not having the same mods has kinda no effect on anything...

Yes they don't obey the same rules, but my point was that the rules that they do obey place more limits, in my opinion, than those placed on players. The biggest one of course being movement speed, which is absolutely huge, irrespective of Goldberg's opinion.

Im sorry but i think you completely misunderstand just how powerful dexxer tamer/mage tamer templates are when played properly!

A bad tamer will use his pet as a tank, a decent tamer will use his pet for kill shots and a great tamer wont even use the pet unless outnumbered!

And I'm not sure you understand what you really appear to be saying. What you are saying is that what makes players great isn't their pets, it's how skilled they are. If a "great tamer won't even use a pet unless outnumbered" what makes that player great isn't the pet, it is the player's skill. On that we can completely agree.

Those 200+ skill points spent on taming that only get used when that "great tamer" is outnumbered, could just as easily be spent on something else that would improve that skilled player's effectiveness when outnumbered. What those "great tamers" primarily gain in that situation is the ability to instantly mount a mount that can't be killed in a split second.

220+ skill points is a lot to pay for that ability. Is that an over-powered ability? I don't know, but the issue there doesn't centre around tamers per se, as much as it does around hybrid templates with taming, which has been an issue that has been discussed for a long time.

 

[Llewen]

How am i a hypocrit if fixing speedhacking would fix the players in my guild your pancakes about too?

You're a hypocrit because you cry about these people constantly, but then log into vent and fight with them.

Far be it from me to defend hypocrisy, but just about the only way to not play on the same side as cheaters in an MMO, is to play solo. I have yet to see a guild or clan in any MMO that didn't have cheaters in them. If it isn't in big ways, it's in little ways. I've pretty much given up on the issue. All I can do is try to play clean myself and let everyone else worry about themselves.

If I see someone cheating in a way I think the GM's can deal with, I'll page on them. But paging on people speed hacking, or using illegal third party apps, is a waste of time. At least it was a couple of years ago.

 

[o2bavr6]

Yes, because ...



The quote is NOT Felluca specific, it reveals the true intent doesn't it. To make sure that any reason the Tamer leaves the game, that the Pet is fair game for you or the Mob the tamer was fighting.

It certainly wont make any difference to you if the reason is NOT related to the player taking some action. In the end that just makes it even better doesn't it? *Your chance to address the core reason this is the way it is*

From my perspective the mentioned Fig Leaves are the argument of "oh look at me, all I am asking for is the innocent request of taking the time to code flags on the pet, that is fair isn't it".

It is NEVER EVER that simple with UO.

It is NEVER EVER that contained.

It ALWAYS IS MORE THAN WANTED by anyone you, me or anyone else.

Lets do it your way, here is a perfectly innocent fig leaf, "You would not be advocating that if the defender in PvP uses a Cheat, Hack to crash the Aggressor's client to the desktop, that they be rewarded with being able to kill the Tamer and the Pet would you? If not then how does your proposition NOT reward the cheater and punish the honest player"

I mean to say, isn't it enough that the cheat/hack allows you to kill the honest tamer? Do you really need to kill the pet as well?

And what exactly was Noto PKing? Only to point you to a similar scenario of abuse of a system.

Well if you would have read all the posts, at least the ones I made, you would see that this conversation is actually Fell Specific.

And honestly you have not come up with a single argument as to why pets should not have to follow the same rules as players.. in Fel in regards to flee of battle.

Edit: in regards to the hacks and cheats: these have nothing to do with the subject and just cause UO has some flaws doesn't make it ok for other flaws to exist.

But just for you, I WOULD LIKE ALL HACKS AND CHEATS GONE ASS WELL!! feel better now?

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

We are talking about Fel not Tram.

Also the main heart of the debate is simple:
I say that if a pet is an agressor the tamer should not be able to log out or use a pet ball to summon it away.. in essence saving it from sure death.

Any other template can not leave when in flee of battle, so why should a pet be any different?

And also keep in mind that i also propose they remove stat/skill loss upon death for pets in Fel.

Is this such a bad idea?

Yes, because ...

...
....

Yet you can have your dragon in the wilderness out of guard zone and insta log him out.

It certainly wont make any difference to you if the reason is NOT related to the player taking some action. In the end that just makes it even better doesn't it? *Your chance to address the core reason this is the way it is*

From my perspective the mentioned Fig Leaves are the argument of "oh look at me, all I am asking for is the innocent request of taking the time to code flags on the pet, that is fair isn't it".

It is NEVER EVER that simple with UO.

It is NEVER EVER that contained.

It ALWAYS IS MORE THAN WANTED by anyone you, me or anyone else.

Lets do it your way, here is a perfectly innocent fig leaf, "You would not be advocating that if the defender in PvP uses a Cheat, Hack to crash the Aggressor's client to the desktop, that they be rewarded with being able to kill the Tamer and the Pet would you? If not then how does your proposition NOT reward the cheater and punish the honest player"

I mean to say, isn't it enough that the cheat/hack allows you to kill the honest tamer? Do you really need to kill the pet as well?

And what exactly was Noto PKing? Only to point you to a similar scenario of abuse of a system.

Ouch! Enigma clearly revealed as nothng more then a verbose & biased troller

Any objective person reading this thread can clearly see that the OP does not hate Tamers and mainly just has serious issues with "aggressive" Tamers in Felucca. As do I ofc. But you cant understand that or the fact that a person can have an opinion and also post objectively because you are unable to do so.

The OP said this: "Yet you can have your dragon in the wilderness out of guard zone and insta log him out"

and you inferred this: "The quote is NOT Felluca specific, it reveals the true intent doesn't it. To make sure that any reason the Tamer leaves the game, that the Pet is fair game for you or the Mob the tamer was fighting"

"NOT Felluca specific"? Where in the world do you get that from? Have you missed the words "felucca" and "aggressor" in the OP's posts? You simply had no other means of bashing the OP with real logic or facts so you decided to throw Trammel into the mix to troll.
And where does the Mob you inferred come from? The OP has said or inferred nothing about Mobs killing pets. That is obviously an issue you grapple with though lol.
But trying to rally the Trammel citizens against the OP wasnt enough for you. You then introduced your own Cheater scenario so as to try and rally more bystanders.

Just plain sad kid

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

How am i a hypocrit if fixing speedhacking would fix the players in my guild your pancakes about too?

You're a hypocrit because you cry about these people constantly, but then log into vent and fight with them.

Far be it from me to defend hypocrisy, but just about the only way to not play on the same side as cheaters in an MMO, is to play solo. I have yet to see a guild or clan in any MMO that didn't have cheaters in them. If it isn't in big ways, it's in little ways. I've pretty much given up on the issue. All I can do is try to play clean myself and let everyone else worry about themselves.

If I see someone cheating in a way I think the GM's can deal with, I'll page on them. But paging on people speed hacking, or using illegal third party apps, is a waste of time. At least it was a couple of years ago.

Hrmmm, it appears to me that based on his own words Llewen chooses to play with cheaters over playing solo and clean. Thats pretty interesting.

Llewen in his own words plays clean within a guild of cheaters? Thats kinda hard to do IMO. I mean if Llewen is doing a spawn with his cheating guildmates and gains a 120 scroll in his pack or from a roll I would have to think that he is now the owner of dubious merchandise no? It must be nice to profit in many different ways from your cheating guildmates yet still feel good about yourself. Rock on clean player!

 

[Llewen]

Hrmmm, it appears to me that based on his own words Llewen chooses to play with cheaters over playing solo and clean. Thats pretty interesting.

Llewen in his own words plays clean within a guild of cheaters? Thats kinda hard to do IMO. I mean if Llewen is doing a spawn with his cheating guildmates and gains a 120 scroll in his pack or from a roll I would have to think that he is now the owner of dubious merchandise no? It must be nice to profit in many different ways from your cheating guildmates yet still feel good about yourself. Rock on clean player!

Didn't you just accuse someone else of being a troll? There is exactly one person in my guild, and that would be me. I know my guild is clean, and that is the only reason I know it is clean. Perhaps you should know what you are talking about before you start throwing accusations around in an attempt to score some points...

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Well if you would have read all the posts, at least the ones I made, you would see that this conversation is actually Fell Specific.

And then out of the Blue, at no prompting what so ever, volunteered all on your own, you throw in ..... You got it a Non Specific statement

...
Yet you can have your dragon in the wilderness out of guard zone and insta log him out
....

that clearly defines your goal of nerfing All Tamers such that the Pet does NOT log out with them. I mean why else would you drag that into your pure innocent, all I want is for Pets to have the Flag System Coded on to them.

Do you even know that originally the Pet was governed by the Tamers Flags, lock stock and barrel? Does it even bother you that you do NOT question why it was removed/modified? That any reasons given to you why it was, is dismissed by you as not relevant to anything in the world? So your Freudian Slip, is when all the smoke is cleared, the most probably root goal.

....
And honestly you have not come up with a single argument as to why pets should not have to follow the same rules as players.. in Fel in regards to flee of battle.
....

Well, in your attempt to misdirect the fact that you want to reward those useing Cheats, hacks and exploits to kill your Hated Tamers and the Abomination you hate so much the Greater Dragon.

It is clear you will do everything you can to DENY THAT CHEATS, HACKS AND EXPLOITS ARE RELEVANT TO THE PLAYING OF THE GAME.

Or said more directly, YOU incorporate them into your game play, IF NOT THEN WHY DO YOU SO ADAMANTLY DENY THEY HAVE ANYTHING WHAT SO EVER TO DO WITH THE GAME PLAY OF UO? Eh?

Are you squirming that your advocating a change that REWARDS the use of the Cheats, Hacks and Exploits?

I mean after all it is such an innocent series of dots that are obviously connected and surely YOU would NOT want to be the AUTHOR of a system to REWARD THOSE THAT CHEAT, HACK AND EXPLOIT ... OR WOULD YOU.

I am only saying it is all just a series of INNOCENT PROPOSITIONS that ask the OBVIOUS QUESTIONS.

 

[o2bavr6]

And then out of the Blue, at no prompting what so ever, volunteered all on your own, you throw in ..... You got it a Non Specific statement



that clearly defines your goal of nerfing All Tamers such that the Pet does NOT log out with them. I mean why else would you drag that into your pure innocent, all I want is for Pets to have the Flag System Coded on to them.

Do you even know that originally the Pet was governed by the Tamers Flags, lock stock and barrel? Does it even bother you that you do NOT question why it was removed/modified? That any reasons given to you why it was, is dismissed by you as not relevant to anything in the world? So your Freudian Slip, is when all the smoke is cleared, the most probably root goal.



Well, in your attempt to misdirect the fact that you want to reward those useing Cheats, hacks and exploits to kill your Hated Tamers and the Abomination you hate so much the Greater Dragon.

It is clear you will do everything you can to DENY THAT CHEATS, HACKS AND EXPLOITS ARE RELEVANT TO THE PLAYING OF THE GAME.

Or said more directly, YOU incorporate them into your game play, IF NOT THEN WHY DO YOU SO ADAMANTLY DENY THEY HAVE ANYTHING WHAT SO EVER TO DO WITH THE GAME PLAY OF UO? Eh?

Are you squirming that your advocating a change that REWARDS the use of the Cheats, Hacks and Exploits?

I mean after all it is such an innocent series of dots that are obviously connected and surely YOU would NOT want to be the AUTHOR of a system to REWARD THOSE THAT CHEAT, HACK AND EXPLOIT ... OR WOULD YOU.

I am only saying it is all just a series of INNOCENT PROPOSITIONS that ask the OBVIOUS QUESTIONS.

Enigma...

You were able to read all that into what I posted?

The concept I am proposing is simple, yet you seem to want to mix it up with people who cheat and hack and exploit.

How does asking for pets who are aggressors to not be able to be summoned back to the tamer have anything to do with cheating and hacking?

My example for a pet logging out in the wilderness was just that... AN EXAMPLE.

All I am saying is: every single player in Fel who logs out, outside of an inn or house, will stay in that spot for 5 minutes until they time out.

Yet a pet does not fall under those rules, and can be brought home instantly. But personally this isn't even the issue.

The issue is if a tamer sicks his pet on me, he should not be able to summon it back because its an aggressor no different than if i attacked you I could not recall away for two minutes.

Sadly in the end you corrupt this post with your "hacking, cheating" garbage which has nothing to do with the post. And you don't even know me, yet accuse me of cheating because of my post?

Trying to discuss logic with you on this topic is like trying to discuss logic with a child or George W Bush.

 

[Wenchkin]

Removing auto stabling from PvP battles wouldn't concern me, nor would the change to pet balls. If a pet dies, retrain it and quit complaining. If you took it into Fel, you should deal with the negative consequences if you lose. If you can't take the heat...

Pet balls and auto stabling are useful for PvM use, but as long as the changes were made only for players engaged in battle against another player, there wouldn't be an adverse impact on PvMers.

Wenchy

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

The concept I am proposing is simple, yet you seem to want to mix it up with people who cheat and hack and exploit.

Lets ask why you want to deny your proposal rewards those that cheat, hack and exploit. Why you want to make sure that aspect is totally hidden, obfuscated, deemed not relevant.

I mean I get it that you do not want to see or hear any negative about your proposal.

Logic that enables only one side of the issue to be presented is rather .... prone to make trouble for all.

And you know the other side is on the ropes when they try to use Geo Political figures to insult people that oppose them or any of the typical Day Care Psycho Babble games.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

This is not a post about how pets may or may not be overpowered in PvP. What it is about is the following:

Why is it that if I attack someone in Fel it will put me in flee of battle for two minutes to where I cant recall, gate or enter a house, yet when someone sicks their pet on me, making the pet the aggressor, they can summon their pet back by using a pet summon bag or save their pet by logging out?

Am I the only one that thinks pets should have to follow the same rules in PvP as players?

Am I the only one who thinks this is HUGELY obvious?

Devs: Anyone care to comment on why tamers pets don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else?

How is it possible that people such as Enigma,Llewen,Kiljaedon,etc...twisted the above statement and accused the OP of:

1) Enigma: "If not then how does your proposition NOT reward the cheater and punish the honest player" Huhza? The OP endorses cheating because he wants a flawed game mechanic fixed?

2) Llewen: "you simply want tamers out of the game, period." The OP(and anyone else that says 1 little negative thing about Tamers ofc)wants Tamers out of the game because he wants powerful pets to have to follow the same flagging rules as everyone else?

3) Kiljaedon: "Just do not get upset because a tamer gets a lucky kill on you every now and then" Another 'objective" response that assumes anyone who says anyhting negative is a hater.

4) Enigma: "This is all this request to nerf tamers is about.
The ability to make sure that if they use the hack to crash their tamer opponent to the desk top, they can not only kill the tamer, they can kill the tamers pet"

This is by far my favorite as it is a perfect example of a person with a different viewpoint and no facts attempting to say any type of utter nonsense to try and discredit someone.

Bottom line is that only 1 or 2 people in this huge thread(Tina Small was one)disagreed with the OP yet had the sense and objectiveness to listen to his points and respond without making crap up.

 

[Llewen]

2) Llewen: "you simply want tamers out of the game, period." The OP(and anyone else that says 1 little negative thing about Tamers ofc)wants Tamers out of the game because he wants powerful pets to have to follow the same flagging rules as everyone else?

You know as well as I do that there are, quite literally, dozens, if not hundreds, of threads in these forums that all boil down to that same essence. This one started a little more subtly, but it doesn't take too much reading between the lines to find exactly what I have stated. I also remember the op from a year and a half ago, and he was singing the same kind of tune back then.

The op tried very hard to make it appear that this wasn't an "I hate tamers" thread, but it very clearly is. Even if that truly wasn't the op's intention, that is what this thread, and the dozens of others like it, all boil down to. And most, if not all, of these threads are based on emotional arguments that are simply not supported by the facts.

- Reading the dozens of threads just like this one you would think that tamer templates are the most powerful in pvm. That is simply not true, there isn't a pvm context out there, from champ spawns, to peerless, to hunting skeletons at your local graveyard where there aren't other templates that are far more effective than any template with taming on it.

- Reading the dozens of threads just like this one you would think that tamer templates are the most powerful in pvp. Again, this simply isn't true. There are some hybrid templates that have taming on them that don't use pets as their primary damage dealer, but primarily use them as a mount, that are extremely effective, but they aren't any more effective than half a dozen other templates that are equally powerful.

This discussion always boils down to perceptions and emotion. Someone who thinks they are a good player doesn't like the fact that some tamer with a dragon, or a cu sidhe, is more effective than they are. They think the problem is the pet, or taming, when the real problem is they simply don't know as much about the game as they think they do, or aren't as advanced as they think they are.

But tamers are always easy targets, because they are easy to single out. This became doubly true when greater dragons were added to the game. I love my greater dragon, but the greater dragon has probably done more damage to the taming profession than any single other addition to the game, in the history of UO.

 

[o2bavr6]

Lets ask why you want to deny your proposal rewards those that cheat, hack and exploit. Why you want to make sure that aspect is totally hidden, obfuscated, deemed not relevant.

I mean I get it that you do not want to see or hear any negative about your proposal.

Logic that enables only one side of the issue to be presented is rather .... prone to make trouble for all.

And you know the other side is on the ropes when they try to use Geo Political figures to insult people that oppose them or any of the typical Day Care Psycho Babble games.

Not sure what to say other than ???????????????????????????????

A while back there was the bug with dread horses to where if someone paralyzed it, the owner could still mount it and ride away before the paralyze timer wore off.

I posted about it and surprisingly Lurocean responded to my post and they fixed it in the next patch... but it seems in your mind that they shouldn't have because of hackers and cheaters and exploiters.

I don't want to see any changes to pets in tram and really no changes in Fel other than flagging rules that everyone has to adhere to, even hackers and cheaters and exploiters.

But I guess that because I would like to see game fixes it makes me an exploiter, hacker and cheater.

 

[o2bavr6]

You know as well as I do that there are, quite literally, dozens, if not hundreds, of threads in these forums that all boil down to that same essence. This one started a little more subtly, but it doesn't take too much reading between the lines to find exactly what I have stated. I also remember the op from a year and a half ago, and he was singing the same kind of tune back then.

The op tried very hard to make it appear that this wasn't an "I hate tamers" thread, but it very clearly is. Even if that truly wasn't the op's intention, that is what this thread, and the dozens of others like it, all boil down to. And most, if not all, of these threads are based on emotional arguments that are simply not supported by the facts.

- Reading the dozens of threads just like this one you would think that tamer templates are the most powerful in pvm. That is simply not true, there isn't a pvm context out there, from champ spawns, to peerless, to hunting skeletons at your local graveyard where there aren't other templates that are far more effective than any template with taming on it.

- Reading the dozens of threads just like this one you would think that tamer templates are the most powerful in pvp. Again, this simply isn't true. There are some hybrid templates that have taming on them that don't use pets as their primary damage dealer, but primarily use them as a mount, that are extremely effective, but they aren't any more effective than half a dozen other templates that are equally powerful.

This discussion always boils down to perceptions and emotion. Someone who thinks they are a good player doesn't like the fact that some tamer with a dragon, or a cu sidhe, is more effective than they are. They think the problem is the pet, or taming, when the real problem is they simply don't know as much about the game as they think they do, or aren't as advanced as they think they are.

But tamers are always easy targets, because they are easy to single out. This became doubly true when greater dragons were added to the game. I love my greater dragon, but the greater dragon has probably done more damage to the taming profession than any single other addition to the game, in the history of UO.

Llewen... can you please post the wining loto numbers for next week. I know you are psychic cause you are able to know what my actual thoughts were in my post... you saw right through me.

You are correct I want all tamers removed from Tram and Fel and all your characters deleted cause you dont cheat. I only want cheaters and hackers and exploiters to play UO.. no one else!! After all if you read all my posts you will see that I am subliminally asking for tamers to be removed from the game and not actually asking for a pertinent fix.

I am so sorry I offended you with the concept of not allowing pets to flee in Fel if they are an aggressor... as well as to remove pet stat/skill loss upon death in Fel.

This make you feel better about yourself?

 

[o2bavr6]

Lets ask why you want to deny your proposal rewards those that cheat, hack and exploit.

How does this reward cheaters?

I have never had anyone make my uo client go to desktop.

There are cheaters out there but I think that you may be experiencing PC issues that you blame on cheaters.

I suggest you remove your alt-F4 macro for healing and use different keys!

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I have never had anyone make my uo client go to desktop.

I think that you may be experiencing PC issues that you blame on cheaters.

How cute is that Yes any failure is always some one else hardware problem, software problem, that is unless of course it is you? I remember a person wanting Greater Dragons removed from the game because they could NOT KILL them with their OPPOSING ALIGNMENT SLAYER WEAPON. And how that was everyone elses fault, problem but their own and obviously Greater Dragons should be able to be one hit killed with a Slayer Weapon of the OPPOSING ALIGNMENT. Gosh who was that poster.

....
But I guess that because I would like to see game fixes it makes me an exploiter, hacker and cheater.

Your words not mine and if they are true then so be it.

You continue to refuse to acknowledge the fact that you are proposing something that rewards those that cheat, hack and exploit.

You continue to believe and it is your right to do so, that what you percieve as a game changing, UO will die tomorrow, make or break change to nerf tamers yet again, in Trammel (you made the comment not me, you were not asked to make that comment, you volunteered it on your own and the context is 100% clear that it had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FLAGGING SYSTEM), far exceeds the impact to others that will receive the full brunt of the current PvP crowd that feels it is mandatory to use what ever cheats, hacks and exploits that are available to be competitive with the other PvPrs that are using them. In short a closed circle.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Alchemists craft it from 1 Medusa Blood, an empty bottle, and 3 Spider's Silk.

Of course, since Medusa Blood is 1 per Medusa as I've seen thus far, and that people (crazy people) are selling it in Luna on GL for 3,000,000 each, it's cheaper to stand around and offer to tip for a res.

 

[o2bavr6]

How cute is that Yes any failure is always some one else hardware problem, software problem, that is unless of course it is you? I remember a person wanting Greater Dragons removed from the game because they could NOT KILL them with their OPPOSING ALIGNMENT SLAYER WEAPON. And how that was everyone elses fault, problem but their own and obviously Greater Dragons should be able to be one hit killed with a Slayer Weapon of the OPPOSING ALIGNMENT. Gosh who was that poster.

Yes and 85 to 90 damage isnt too much in your mind with opposing slayer weapon?

What about 65 to 70 damage per firebreath without the slayer weapon in hand?

You continue to believe and it is your right to do so, that what you percieve as a game changing, UO will die tomorrow, make or break change to nerf tamers yet again, in Trammel (you made the comment not me, you were not asked to make that comment, you volunteered it on your own and the context is 100% clear that it had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FLAGGING SYSTEM), far exceeds the impact to others that will receive the full brunt of the current PvP crowd that feels it is mandatory to use what ever cheats, hacks and exploits that are available to be competitive with the other PvPrs that are using them. In short a closed circle.

Where did I say this? Other than my last facetious post.. which was just that... facetious.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

One problem I see is having different rules between PvP and PvE. That makes it harder to balance things. That's for games like WoW, where they don't care about balance and instead go with rock/paper/scissors. UO needs to stabalize things into one set of rules, not have one set for Mondays and another for Tuesdays.

Unfortunately, if they balance everything to one set of rules, a character is going to be far less effective in PvM because of limits that have to be set on PvP. Personally, I prefer that they keep the split ruleset for things like this where exceptions are made for the balance of PvP rather than to kill PvM.

Also... rock/paper/scissors is about as balanced as you're going to get in a template based system. Rock overpowers scissors. Scissors overpowers paper. Paper overpowers rock. If you're looking for balance in that every template is capable of fighting every template evenly, then, frankly, we need to remove all classes and simply have a "fight" button that randomly assigns damage per hit and whomever is left standing is the winner. Otherwise, each template should have its strengths and weaknesses -- the problem is that in UO balance, the balance currently is often "mostly weaknesses" or "mostly strengths" for a particular template.

The other issue, of course, is that UO is a template based game. Which means we pick and choose our skillsets. It becomes much more difficult to balance say Mage/Med/Focus/Inscribe/Resist/Eval vs. Mage/Med/Inscribe/Resist/Eval/Wrestle vs. Mage/Necro/Med/Inscribe/Resist/Eval/Wrestle vs. Necro/Med/Inscribe/Resist/Eval/Wrestle vs... I mean, the list goes on and on and on, and while all those templates are similar to each other, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Dragons are too much. Instead of taming a full grown Dragon, they should have players take a Dragon egg, hatch it, tame/train it, and then raise it to a lesser Dragon status first. Starting as something as strong as a bear and as it raises stats it grows into different stages. Gaining in visual size, fighting ability, then spells. If a pet Dragon in this idea dies, it should lose stats and possibly lose size and abilities too, according to the growth rules. And raising a dragon to full grown status would be a real status symbol, as would keeping it there. But this full grown status should never be as powerful as a wild Elder Dragon. It's just too much.

Greater Dragons were a bad idea; and tamers in EVERY game basically get a second pair of hands (often stronger than their own) to beat the hell out of stuff with. This is why most everyone else hates tamers.

Of course, tamers exist, and so they have to be handled within the confines of what makes sense.

Right now pets do "grow" in their stats, and they have their maxes. I honestly have no idea why greater dragons were even necessary. It's not like pure mages suddenly got a new, more powerful spell -- and god, don't I love seeing the only truly useful 8th Circle spell just poof in the blink of an eye? Yeah, EQ's great for AOE, but EV is the only summons really worth it (unless you like the karma loss from daemons). Digressing, but I'd love to see all the summons put into a summons menu, keep EV seperate (because it doesn't act like a summons), and then have four new useful 8th circle spells introduced.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

....
I honestly have no idea why greater dragons were even necessary.
...

I wont follow up on this as it is mostly off topic.

As a generalization the need for any new spell, pet, weapon or item in general, is created when a nerf was installed to the user, such that in the end run, that nerf prevents them from being able to effectively participate as a template.

Prior to the Greater Dragons was Destard a scary dungeon any longer? Why no of course not, because the Dragons had been nerf'd to a joke. Are the Nightmares a scary thing to encounter? Why no of course not, because they got nerf'd to a joke and thus the need for the Dread War Horse was created.

It doesn't need to be one big nerf, it can be a dozen, oh this is so innocent, request to nerf a template that eventualy demands/dictates a ... you got it, a new Pet that because it is new will get everyone hating it and wanting it nerf'd/removed from the game.

You pointed out the Rock/Scissor/Paper balance model and this is absolutely correct. It is the best that can be hoped for. BUT a number of people categorically reject that and demand their template be, well just good enough to make it a good fight, but the win is guaranteed, such that NO I REFUSE to adapt to deal with a Tamer+Greater Dragon/Cu Sidhe/Hiryu, I stamp my feet and hold my breath and absolutely demand I be made better than them.

 

[o2bavr6]

but I'd love to see all the summons put into a summons menu, keep EV seperate (because it doesn't act like a summons), and then have four new useful 8th circle spells introduced.

Although off topic, I've said this countless times. Mages should get some new 8th level spells.

 

[Llewen]

Llewen... can you please post the wining loto numbers for next week. I know you are psychic cause you are able to know what my actual thoughts were in my post... you saw right through me.

I am so sorry I offended you with the concept of not allowing pets to flee in Fel if they are an aggressor... as well as to remove pet stat/skill loss upon death in Fel.

This make you feel better about yourself?

Maybe you have changed in the year and a half I've been away, or maybe my memory is flawed, that's always a possibility. You've been pretty well behaved in this thread, and I honestly don't have much of a problem with what you've posted in this thread, especially after you made it clear that you would combine this with having stat loss removed.

In fact, I think that your idea is a very good one, and I fully support it, if it is combined with removing stat loss for pets.

But the fact remains that this has turned into another "I hate tamers" thread. Not as nasty as some I remember, but the subtext is still there. I am defencive when it comes to the subject of tamers and taming, but I have very good reason to be. You don't need to look very hard on these forums to see why.

Not only that, but some of what Enigma has posted has also been right on the money. The devs have this tendency to use a nuclear bomb where a hammer would do the job nicely. At least this has been my experience in the past, all the way back to the creation of Trammel. I like this edition of the dev team, but I'm not as trusting as I used to be.

I get worried that perfectly reasonable suggestions, such as yours, will mystically morph into something that completely destroys an entire playstyle. This has happened in the past, and it could just as easily happen again. Although I must admit I have been somewhat relieved to find that I can still play the game with the characters I left a year and a half ago.

 

[o2bavr6]

Prior to the Greater Dragons was Destard a scary dungeon any longer? Why no of course not, because the Dragons had been nerf'd to a joke. Are the Nightmares a scary thing to encounter? Why no of course not, because they got nerf'd to a joke and thus the need for the Dread War Horse was created

Again still off topic but: This is true, but is not a valid reason to add Greaters to the tamable list.

In the end this is not about pets and their strengths or weaknesses.

This is about why pets do not have to follow the same rules as players in Fel.

You say that it aids cheaters. I guess if the cheater has a way to make you lose connection to kill your pet it wold suck, but in the end if your pet does not lose stats or skills, who cares?

Other than that I cant see how it would aid cheaters, but i"m sure you'll have another reason.

In fact with your logic I could say that it is unfair for everyone not to be able to insta log out because there are so many cheaters in the game.. So if they are going to be able to cheat, I should be able to insta log out to save myself. Flawed logic isn't it?

 

[o2bavr6]

But the fact remains that this has turned into another "I hate tamers" thread. Not as nasty as some I remember, but the subtext is still there. I am defencive when it comes to the subject of tamers and taming, but I have very good reason to be. You don't need to look very hard on these forums to see why.

Well this is not my fault, in fact, it's kinda yours and Enigmas fault. I truly am not here to bash tamers.. I am not sure what I can say to convince you other than most of my posts seem to say just that.

Not only that, but some of what Enigma has posted has also been right on the money. The devs have this tendency to use a nuclear bomb where a hammer would do the job nicely. At least this has been my experience in the past, all the way back to the creation of Trammel. I like this edition of the dev team, but I'm not as trusting as I used to be.

I get worried that perfectly reasonable suggestions, such as yours, will mystically morph into something that completely destroys an entire playstyle. This has happened in the past, and it could just as easily happen again. Although I must admit I have been somewhat relieved to find that I can still play the game with the characters I left a year and a half ago.

You are correct, more often than not the Devs get it wrong, but I can't help that.

All I can do is try to show where I think the game has a flaw and I proposed a solution that in my mind resolves the problem with minimal impact to anyone.

As I said in an earlier post, maybe my perspective is skewed, but I am sure trying very hard to be neutral and to stay on topic.

 

[Cardell]

Yeah I never ever get dismounted on a non faction character(whatever).

Never said you weren't. I said Faction players go into stat when they die and they lose points, You don't.

Factions arties arent a huge incentive for people to join factions?(whatever)

Look at faction boards, I have plenty of posts stating that i dislike faction arties. Its way to easy to get them. They should cost 10x the silver and you should be required to participate in raiding and defending...

So the faction system where a large number of people mod thier clients and run the latest speedhack so that when they do get dismounted thier still nearly as fast as the mounted people chasing em is the only "real" pvp system left in place? Haha, many of these players base thier whole playstyle on being able to illegitimately run faster than thier opponents. Is this only in factions?

Damn right its not just in factions. So why bring it up.

Of course not its rampant everywhere in Fel but I for one dont want to be put in stat by some kid that bounces all over the place(mostly off my screen) but comes back for additional dice rolls because of the speed advantage. People speedhacking right into the house is the leetest form of pvp in uo? Hardly. Factions has become who has the best speedhack and run at all costs to avoid stat whether its right into house or right off screen. 99 percent of the templates are trash archers speeding off for the repeat dice roll. Fast tamers dexers or mages with ninja so that once you dismount thier speeding asses they can get by on foot long enough with those leet speed proggies and then just ninja for away after the dismount timer expires.

Again.. this is UO.. not UO factions..Like it or luv it, the Devs can't code and they suck really bad at their jobs. Welcome to UO.

You cry about people wanting the faction pet res thing to go away but that is simply because its your advantage. You havent supplied a single legit reason as to why u should be able to a faction horse.

Ok. For the painfully stupid people.. One more time.

When faction folk die, they go into stat. Being able to res a horse (that doesn't shoot fireballs, just has higher HP) is a small convenience and in most cases keep fights going instead of having people just faction rune/recall out because they are on foot. Because.,, u can bet your ass, if they couldn't res their horse, they'd be recalling and running for the server line a lot more...

Its risk vs reward. Normal pvp, there is no risk,, no reward.. in factions there is risk (stat) and reward (faction pets and arties). Granted,, the arties should be way harder to get.. but the faction horses are just fine.

 

[Llewen]

Well this is not my fault, in fact, it's kinda yours and Enigmas fault.

Yes, I'm sure that my standing up for an entire play style that consistently gets bashed and whined about, is the reason for all the bashing and whining. I've been away for a year and a half, and from what I see on the forums, nothing changed while I was gone. I'm sure I'm quite powerful, but probably even with my great power and influence I very much doubt I had anything to do with the tone and content of the posts on this forum while I was gone.

As I said in an earlier post, maybe my perspective is skewed, but I am sure trying very hard to be neutral and to stay on topic.

You've done a pretty decent job, although I haven't really been paying attention to what's been going on with Enigma's line in this thread...

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
You say that it aids cheaters. I guess if the cheater has a way to make you lose connection to kill your pet it wold suck, but in the end if your pet does not lose stats or skills, who cares?

In fact with your logic I could say that it is unfair for everyone not to be able to insta log out because there are so many cheaters in the game.. So if they are going to be able to cheat, I should be able to insta log out to save myself. Flawed logic isn't it?

Not at all flawed logic. Or in short if you want to Insta Log out to avoid being PK'd it is totally ok with me, I will just remember that and the next time I will stay away from you as you are not a valid PvP opponent. I do not need to see you face down in the dirt to know I beat you in the most important way.

This has been an issue since UO went live.

There have always been N number of people that hit alt+f4, pull the plug on the modem etc to feign being disconnected. They are very very small compared to those that really do get disconnected.

In a Real Role Played PvP environment, were it is really about PvP then this becomes less of an issue as it is probable that the opponents detect the condition and CHOOSE to not exploit the condition.

In todays PvP (UO has NO monopoly on this) that is the extremely rare exception. It is the overwhelming scenario that the person is gonna be PK'd and then be told they choose to disconnect, get a better computer what ever so there is no need to be accountable for their choice to proceed to PK some one that was unable to defend themselves.

I accept that you do not see or care that the Free Bee PKing of a Pet is an issue. But you may want to consider that vs the accepting as the norm that people can exploit the situation because in your case you see no harm or foul to it. I point out that the harm and the foul is the implicit condoning of Cheats, Hacks and Exploiting.

Yeah it may NOT be what you want but then again what we want is rarely what we need. It is my opinion that what UO Needs is a PvP system that works. That does NOT require much, if any effort on EA/Mythics part except for one thing. To dedicate themselves to the removal of the Truely Anti Social person that is harmful to UO, meaning people that go after the player behind the screen to cause them personal harm (do a google if you think this does not happen). To get rid of those that Cheat, Hack and Exploit.

If EA/Mythic never ever made another enhancement to UO but did focus 100% on cleaning up the people that are harmful to the game then UO would make as much or more money for them than if they turn out a Bright New Shiny Toy Every 6 Months, just to have be tossed on the Games Scrap Heap of yesterdays favorite toys.

Because in the end, the Company that gets PvP right, where it is Really Person vs Person, played by people that will police themselves to understand that just because you can PK some one does not mean you must PK them, that there is really a person experiencing real life issues on the other side of the connection. That company is going to win the Game of MMORPG's.

Each MMORPG PvPrs think their version is the best, they are totaly wrong, they are all carbon copies of each other. It is 100% Item vs item, Cheat vs Cheat, Hack vs Hack, Exploit vs Exploit. The only thing that differs is the list of things that fall in each of the Categories.

 

[o2bavr6]

Not at all flawed logic. Or in short if you want to Insta Log out to avoid being PK'd it is totally ok with me, I will just remember that and the next time I will stay away from you as you are not a valid PvP opponent. I do not need to see you face down in the dirt to know I beat you in the most important way.

This has been an issue since UO went live.

There have always been N number of people that hit alt+f4, pull the plug on the modem etc to feign being disconnected. They are very very small compared to those that really do get disconnected.

In a Real Role Played PvP environment, were it is really about PvP then this becomes less of an issue as it is probable that the opponents detect the condition and CHOOSE to not exploit the condition.

In todays PvP (UO has NO monopoly on this) that is the extremely rare exception. It is the overwhelming scenario that the person is gonna be PK'd and then be told they choose to disconnect, get a better computer what ever so there is no need to be accountable for their choice to proceed to PK some one that was unable to defend themselves.

I accept that you do not see or care that the Free Bee PKing of a Pet is an issue. But you may want to consider that vs the accepting as the norm that people can exploit the situation because in your case you see no harm or foul to it. I point out that the harm and the foul is the implicit condoning of Cheats, Hacks and Exploiting.

Yeah it may NOT be what you want but then again what we want is rarely what we need. It is my opinion that what UO Needs is a PvP system that works. That does NOT require much, if any effort on EA/Mythics part except for one thing. To dedicate themselves to the removal of the Truely Anti Social person that is harmful to UO, meaning people that go after the player behind the screen to cause them personal harm (do a google if you think this does not happen). To get rid of those that Cheat, Hack and Exploit.

If EA/Mythic never ever made another enhancement to UO but did focus 100% on cleaning up the people that are harmful to the game then UO would make as much or more money for them than if they turn out a Bright New Shiny Toy Every 6 Months, just to have be tossed on the Games Scrap Heap of yesterdays favorite toys.

Because in the end, the Company that gets PvP right, where it is Really Person vs Person, played by people that will police themselves to understand that just because you can PK some one does not mean you must PK them, that there is really a person experiencing real life issues on the other side of the connection. That company is going to win the Game of MMORPG's.

Each MMORPG PvPrs think their version is the best, they are totaly wrong, they are all carbon copies of each other. It is 100% Item vs item, Cheat vs Cheat, Hack vs Hack, Exploit vs Exploit. The only thing that differs is the list of things that fall in each of the Categories.

Hows this: Lets say that EA/Mythic figures out a way to get rid of all cheating, hacking and exploiting from UO.

If this was the case, would you be ok with aggressive pets, in Fel, having to follow the flee of battle rules that players have to follow?

This means that the tamer has to attack the other person first, making the tamer and his pet the aggressor. So this scenario is not about a tamer minding his own business walking along, when all of a sudden he gets ganked by a red.

If you still don't agree I would love to hear why; but please leave exploiting, cheating and hacking out of it since EA has, in this scenario, removed them all.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

If they were to eliminate all cheating, hacking and exploiting and I am not expanding anything here, then yes, a lot of the issues get mitigated.

The only remaining issues are

This is soft but more hard than soft, is when one of the opponents becomes disconnected. Now that Cheating, hacking and exploiting has been eliminated, the person that gets disconnected did not do it voluntarily. This scenario should compel the others to accept the condition and leave the disconnected person alone as they have no means to defend themselves. This is a persistent issue in PvP. It is the Corpse Camping, the Recall/Gate camping it is any scenario by which an individual, that for what ever the game mechanic is that causes it, not in control of themselves and unable to defend or participate in the encounter. This again is NOT PvP and come to think of it, it is eliminated by the NO Exploitation as these scenarios clearly exploit of a game mechanic to take advantage of a player that can NOT participate in the encounter.

The legitimate reasons for a pet to be instantly loged out, hum, well if the Exploitation has been removed then in these scenarios the 5 minutes to log out probably becomes ok. The only scenario were this is not acceptable, given UO the way it is now, is were the pet is borderline ready to go Wild, is in one of those areas of UO were they just take off for some God Only knows were place that is caused by a bug in the game code. I concede this is probably very unlikely and may never really have happened, the going wild part, not the teleporting, disappearing to some where else.

Now then the Tamer is flagged just as you want, the Tamer can NOT log out, just as you want, so were is the issue for having the Pet conform to the Tamers Flag's? We have after all eliminated the exploiting the intentional crashing of the Client. Leaving only the legitimate disconnect scenario.

The guiding principle should always be Person vs Person, and the antithesis of that principle should be NEVER Person vs a Person that is unable to participate in the encounter.