My 2nd Biggest Worry About UO

[Lilyth of RK]

The only time I get down about UO is when I come to stratics and read threads like this one. This has been the case for the 12 yrs I have played UO. Nothing has changed in the posts here other than some names. I have read for 12 yrs how UO was going to shut down, the end is near lalalala. I am kind of immune to all the "sky is falling" rhetoric here. Everytime I come to stratics for some info there is at least one openly negative post, and all others have some negativity thrown in somewhere. It is the nature of the messege board beast. Not just regarding UO ir MMO's but all messege boards having to do with virtually any subject you can think of.

An example is my local paper. In response to almost any article there are say, 15 people who always respond . Usually these 15 are negative about everything they respond to. Are they the only 15 people in the city I live in? No. Are they the only 15 people who care? No. Do they represent the views of the citizens of the city? No. Are they the only 15 people with too much time on their narcissitic hands? quite possibly.

That said, two yr break from UO .. back just over a yr and feelin good about the state of the game overall. There were years when nothing at all happened in UO on the dev side. I think someone said it , all they are "required" to provide is the game. Not added content, not fixes, not new pixil crack. UO is as they say a "sandbox", to me that means .. Make your own fun. I appreciate that most of all about UO.

Enjoy, play ... the sky will fall eventually, till then all you lil Peter's out there can stop cryin Wolf.

 

[Woodsman]

The only time I get down about UO is when I come to stratics and read threads like this one. This has been the case for the 12 yrs I have played UO. Nothing has changed in the posts here other than some names. I have read for 12 yrs how UO was going to shut down, the end is near lalalala. I am kind of immune to all the "sky is falling" rhetoric here.

I used to be, but there has been a huge drop in the past 5 years, and let's face it, if UO becomes unprofitable or close to it, and some EA executive wanders in here or over to Facebook, he's not going to see a group of people who are mostly enthusiastic about the game and trying to sell it to everybody they see. He's going to see a group of people who mostly can't or won't be pleased no matter what. He's going to see fans of one client arguing against fans of the other client, with both sides claiming the other is either wasting resources or holding things back. He's going to see a lot of jaded people.

Regardless, there needs to be more communication about an overall strategy. We heard the lofty concepts back in like March, now we need to start seeing some concrete examples.

 

[Luvmylace]

Most people come back to UO from Wow say they are sick of leveling.
IMHO ,you guys and gals can debate this till the cows come home.I mostly agree with Galen ,with one exception. The bottom line is ,while you are complaining ,more of us are out playing and loving it. It is diverse, deep and engaging for all aspects of play .It is "The Game" that started it all .I will go down with the ship and enjoy every minute I play till then. The Devs do the best they can in the constraints of the game and the economy. AND WE ALL KNOW THAT. And that is the last word with any MMORPG. All the negativity shouted on the boards will not change that.
Any one willing to give up all you have accumulated for the last 13+ years and start from scratch with a new updated engine?

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Things change, people don't...

Mr. HD here has lost pretty much all credibility in the classic shard threads, he's an expert number juggler and likes to argue. His numbers rarely added up (I remain open minded that he could have evolved to blu-ray).

Anyhow.

Funny isn't it ? That is exactly my point, if the game remains pg-13... we'll be killing it.

If we mobilise and ask for change, then maybe you will have game. When I mean game I mean hundreds of thousands of players rushing back in, crashing the WoW market so much the game now look ridiculous compared to the system I developped after I stopped hacking UO.

I kept it jealously.

It makes no difference to me one or the other, for you see I own both the atlantic shard and the black gem. Noone can stop me now... soon enough both (WoW UO) WoW and those social networking games will be seen as the past time of the seriously mentally challenged, as childish and obnoxious as a ninja turtle costume for an adult.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

You are smart enough to know my point: The patch message has, until recently, been up to date consistently for roughly a year. The most-consistent record in my recent memory.

If by "up to date," you mean several months behind, then you're right. If by "up to date," you mean current with the last actual patch published to the production shards, then, sadly, you are woefully mistaken. Again, this team only kept it up to date for about two patches and then fell back into their rut of apathy.

No one's really cared.

People care, but this is just a drop in the bucket.

Where you exaggerated was in implying that I was

And, again, Marty, whether you are misrepresenting me intentionally or mistakenly, it is unworthy of you.

You use the first generalization regarding mass negativity. Unless the playerbase should become apathetic to the things you cited as examples (things which were not widely praised or loudly supported) some form of positive reaction is the only other answer.

My personal favorite, no one has commented upon: That we are as a community so far gone that people are actually capable of believing that EA has just stopped paying for UO's servers.

Actually, a few people have commented on the community aspect. However, the notion that we are all too jaded to believe that EA "stopped paying for UO's servers" is a patently ridiculous and unsupportable statement.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

You should know better than to argue with Galen... he's won every argument we had... I... think.

 

[Lady CaT]

My 2nd biggest worry, however, is the time at which we players hit a tipping point, where everything is taken negatively. We've always been a rough bunch, but for the last couple of years it's day by day less of an exaggeration to say that we, collectively, take everything negatively.

Wow! You really hit the nail on the head! Its ironic that alot of the players on these boards claim so much love for playing UO and wish more people were playing. But alot of these same players have completely failed to realize how much their constant negativity on these forums has contributed to driving people away from the game.

Perhaps some day game developers will understand the value of maintaining and controlling their own websites to establish a player base.

 

[Barok]

Perhaps some day game developers will understand the value of maintaining and controlling their own websites to establish a player base.

No, the best way to improve the negativity situation isn't censorship, it's fixing the problems.

 

[Ivor_MacGregor]

The opinions of 99.9% of the content within each post here should be a beacon of attention for EA. All of us, recent player and decade-plus subscribers alike, play UO for a specific and simple reasons: UO is a virtual world where we can get away from day to day operations and stresses. It is a world where we can unleash our inner child and indulge. EA, if you are listening, you have purchased the rights of something that can either go into the history books as a grandfather or THE god father of MMORPGs. Unfortunately, I believe those who make the decisions at EA simply do not have the passion and and mindset of a MMO player and UO will be nothing more than a MMORPG grandfather. That is just the way it is. This is not a bash at EA what-so-ever. EA is a fantastic company. I have enjoyed the many console titles they put out since before I can remember. I think EA bought out OSI for the same reason any other company does, and that is to make more profits. They are a business and an extremely successful one at that. I truly believe EA simply does not fully comprehend the psychology behind the MMORPG commnunity. But can you blame them? It is by far one of the hardest communities to please. We do not exactly make it easy. But nor should we. We demand excellence and true honor to the Ultima world. Sink or swim EA...that is the future of UO.

I am personally going to play UO till the day they close the server and hope some gifted company out there capitalizes on the magic of a game like Ultima Online. But, that is because, in many ways, I have enjoyed the world of UO more than any game out there. I will forever be thankful to OSI for inventing the first MMORPG. They started something great. Time for a beer.

-Ivor

 

[Woodsman]

The opinions of 99.9% of the content within each post here should be a beacon of attention for EA.

Not really, Stratics posters have always been a minority of UO players. As much as we like to think our opinions count for a lot, the reality is that most people play the game and don't complain on forums. If Stratics posters were the only players then UO would have been unprofitable a long time ago.

EA, if you are listening, you have purchased the rights of something that can either go into the history books as a grandfather or THE god father of MMORPGs.

UO has always been owned by EA - EA bought Origin years before the technology even existed for UO.

I think a lot more timely communication from the devs would help a bit with the negativity. Unfortunately, when the devs communicate with us, there are far too many who, for example hear of a graphics update and then it becomes OMG WTF YOU PROMISED A GRAPHICS UPDATE A FEW MONTHS AGO WHERE THE HELL IS IT, YOU SUCK, YOU ARE LEADING US ON THIS IS ANOTHER CLASSIC SHARD ALL OVER AGAIN or a variation of that - swap spring cleaning for graphics update, etc.

The devs have gotten better, but we haven't. At least we can now point to recent overall updates from the devs, but at the same time a lot of us still act like they are running with a larger dev and artist team than they are.

At times I wonder why they seem so secretive about things, since it's not necessary at this point, then I remember that when they publicly commit to something, they are inviting a whole helluva lot of grief from a certain part of the community, who is going to ride them about this or that promise for all they are worth or take every chance they can to criticize them because they feel their particular playstyle or belief is being deliberately ignored. They also ignore the fact, deliberately or not, that the team is smaller than in the past and that it's video game programming, where schedules cannot be adhered to as strictly as some would like, since ideas rarely survive 100% once they get into testing and Q&A.

We are our own worst enemy.

 

[Nexus]

Not really, Stratics posters have always been a minority of UO players. As much as we like to think our opinions count for a lot, the reality is that most people play the game and don't complain on forums. If Stratics posters were the only players then UO would have been unprofitable a long time ago. UO has always been owned by EA - EA bought Origin years before the technology even existed for UO.

While we aren't a majority we do represent a good cross section, we have people who enjoy every play style present here on Stratics, as well as have members in our community that represent every "Era" of UO present. Our opinions could be used as a gauge just the same way a poll done by a news agency is simply a cross section of that community.

Sure one could argue that not everyone that posts here even plays UO any more, but really is that a real concern? How many people do you think answer polls for the Gallup are completely out of their realm of experience when providing answer?

 

[canary]

Not really, Stratics posters have always been a minority of UO players. As much as we like to think our opinions count for a lot, the reality is that most people play the game and don't complain on forums.

The problem is then it becomes all too easy for others to be dismissive of said opinions.

Many DO complain and don't post. I am sure we all know others in game and they discuss whats wrong, what they don't like, the state of the game, etc... but make no move towards reaching out on a place like here to state such things.

Some, as you said, though, are just happy to log in. And that's fine.

But to simply gloss over and say 'UO stratics opinions aren't really important because it is a minority' is, simply, a load of BS. When you see thread after thread about poor community outreach, there is a problem. When you see countless threads on how bad the art in game is, there is a problem. When you see LOADS of threads on bugs that are not tended to, playerbase being ignored, no communication... etc etc... THERE IS A PROBLEM.

You can't simply dismiss it because one calls it a minority. Trust me, there are a lot of others who feel the exact same way but ma have not chose the same route to say it. And this game, like it or not to them, is built on customer service... and if you treat your customers like poo, every concern should be something to be considered. Those dollars can just as easily go elsewhere.

 

[Woodsman]

But to simply gloss over and say 'UO stratics opinions aren't really important because it is a minority' is, simply, a load of BS. When you see thread after thread about poor community outreach, there is a problem. When you see countless threads on how bad the art in game is, there is a problem. When you see LOADS of threads on bugs that are not tended to, playerbase being ignored, no communication... etc etc... THERE IS A PROBLEM.

There is a problem, and I'm not denying that at all. As a matter of fact, I've posted my share of threads pancakes about graphics and communications. I've even posted threads pointing out what UO's sister game, Dark Age of Camelot, is doing to fix some of their communications problems. I've posted two just in the past few weeks.

The point stands, and it's not even really my point since others brought it up first, the people who are happy with how things are, are simply not going to come in here and post a lot of threads every week about how they are happy or unconcerned about this or that, they are simply going to play the game and go on with their lives.

I really like the artwork for Virtuebane. Did I post a thread about it? No, I mentioned it in passing, posted a link to another website that had some pictures of it, but I didn't start a thread about it.

I hate the UO website. Did I post a thread complaining about it? I've posted I think 3 now, including two in the past few weeks.

 

[Woodsman]

While we aren't a majority we do represent a good cross section, we have people who enjoy every play style present here on Stratics, as well as have members in our community that represent every "Era" of UO present. Our opinions could be used as a gauge just the same way a poll done by a news agency is simply a cross section of that community.

If we were seeing a lot more threads praising the devs or the game every single week, I would agree with you, but we don't. There maybe a good cross section of people who read Stratics, but posting, that's a tough call.

The lack of a lot of new threads every week praising changes or devs either means that happy players don't feel the need to tell everybody they are happy, or that there is nothing to be happy about. I'm leaning towards many happy players not feeling a need to start a thread saying they are happy.

If I have a good meal in a restaurant, chances are I'm not going to personally speak with the manager or chef. I might let friends know, but I'm probably not going to stand around outside the restaurant with a sign saying "the food was great." If UO were a restaurant, there would be people standing around outside with signs pancakes about bugs in the drinks or food being unprepared or undercooked.

Actually, if UO were a restaurant, there would probably be people standing around outside who haven't eaten there in years with signs pancakes that the salad was changed and they aren't going to eat in there again until the salad is changed back. There would be people with signs complaining that the carpeting looks slightly different, or that some of the chairs in a newer part of the restaurant look different than chairs in the old part of the restaurant and that all chairs should look the same and it's a waste if time and money to upgrade the chairs or carpeting in another part of the restaurant. The UO Facebook equivalent would be people driving past the restaurant, stopping, sticking a sign up that says "UO restaurant sucks, bring back grilled fish, then I might come back" and getting back in their cars and driving on.

Probably not a good analogy, but basically we can be our own worst enemies, and there are far too many people with an axe to grind who will never be happy, and/or who don't play, and don't care about the future of the game. They want to take their potshots here or on Facebook or whatever. Criticism can be good and welcomed, but a lot of negative stuff gets mixed in that doesn't have a place.

 

[HD2300]

fyi So Just How Many Players Are There in UO? | UOJournal.com shows that there are currently 32,138 Veteran (non-guilded) Characters.

Players can have up to 7 characters per shard per account. Divide 32,138 by the average number of veteran (non-guilded) characters per account and you have the number of active accounts.

Also from the same article there is a link to EA's CEO saying that the number of active accounts is in the 10s of thousands. We also know ~9000 accounts participated in the Magincia raffle.

By the same token, most people who are not happy arent going to post here either. They will just leave. You can see that active accounts are not great.

Siege has shown that when you stay silent and kiss butt you get a big fat zero.

They said there will be EC updates in early Feb. It is 5 months now. Redoing some terrain tiles DOES NOT take 5 months. Cal said the improvement will be like if you had astigmatism and its gone. Posting a screenshot only takes 1 minute. Is taking just 1 minute to post a screenshot too much work?

What I am saying and I believe is fair is that we players dont deserve another big fat zero like PvP Factions, anti-cheating detection, and the Classic Shard. If EA respects us, they should at least take just 1 minute to post a screenshot of the EC updates.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

If by "up to date," you mean several months behind, then you're right. If by "up to date," you mean current with the last actual patch published to the production shards, then, sadly, you are woefully mistaken. Again, this team only kept it up to date for about two patches and then fell back into their rut of apathy.

The last few months, where they have not kept up with it, would be the "until recently" that I plainly referred to.

You use the first generalization regarding mass negativity. Unless the playerbase should become apathetic to the things you cited as examples (things which were not widely praised or loudly supported) some form of positive reaction is the only other answer.

So "some form of positive reaction" Marty, in your world, is equivalent to this:

So we should be positive and upbeat while things remain unfinished, buggy, poorly 'drawn,' and the course UO is on seems tenuous at best? While this last as-yet-unpublished patch seems like a good start, that's all it is...a start.

which in context plainly refers to the 'cheerleader' mentality that you like to criticize so often?

I disagree.

I think criticisms and complements are both necessary and both need to be measured to what's actually going on.

Case in point: Yes, the patch message is currently out of date. Yes, the team has been far better than many previous ones in keeping the patch message not up to date.

These are not incompatible statements.

Another example would be: "Are you on the train?" "No."

The answer clearly refers to not currently being on the train.

States of being, by definition, are not consistent moment to moment, or at least are not necessarily so.

Up to date now? No, clearly not. There is, for example, nothing about the next Publish. Which is a shame 'cos there's a lot of cool **** in it.

Over the course of, say, the past year, up to date a sizable majority of the time? Yes.

Not incompatible statements. Unless of course one thinks that being positive some of the time is equivalent to being positive all of the time.

But I know you to not be that stupid.

Actually, a few people have commented on the community aspect. However, the notion that we are all too jaded to believe that EA "stopped paying for UO's servers" is a patently ridiculous and unsupportable statement.

I'm going to assume you sincerely don't realize what I'm talking about.

And will inform you.

I frequently like to say that I have a secret website, which 'definitively asserts' that EA has stopped paying for UO's servers. Sooner or later the server vendors will realize they are not being paid, and UO will shut down, shard by shard.

I of course do not give anyone the URL for this site. Because it does not exist, and even if it did? Anyone can put up a website saying anything.

I meant this to be a satire of how people will believe random things on the Internet, especially when it comes to UO, in the absence of any other supporting evidence.

To my shock and horror there were people who actually believed this. Almost worse was that there were people who believed that I believed it, and I was simply wrong and being negative.

At first I thought, "are these people just stupid?"

Then I realized no, that's not the issue. It was merely a symptom just how far down we as a community have collectively come.

Some people will believe something that outlandish. And, almost worse, some people will believe that I believe it.

-Galen's player

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

While we aren't a majority we do represent a good cross section, we have people who enjoy every play style present here on Stratics, as well as have members in our community that represent every "Era" of UO present. Our opinions could be used as a gauge just the same way a poll done by a news agency is simply a cross section of that community.

Sure one could argue that not everyone that posts here even plays UO any more, but really is that a real concern? How many people do you think answer polls for the Gallup are completely out of their realm of experience when providing answer?

I do not mind people who do not play reading and posting, as their opinion is worth something in the bigger picture, being if x is fixed and they see it they may return to see how fixed it is (recently a patch noted that the EC crash issue was addressed and I know of at least 3 people plus 1 who posted on Stratics that started a trial account to see if it was true)

I am not sure the posters of Stratics really represent a strong cross section, we represent a variety of players but hardly a good grasp of the over all player base. I never claim nothing is wrong, or that other people who do not post on here do not complain, but some of the complaints people make they do not know the reason behind that complaint aside from the issue itself (a good example would be low population shard players complaining they can't possibly play with other people because there are no people on but they do not claim no one is playing because of a bug or a cheat, if its true or not.) But I have to say there are far more people who are simply playing the game with no gripes then there are people who have gripes, and even more so than us, the posters of Stratics, who post the concerns of our selves and others, but we don't come running to post everytime someone suggest they like something.

When was the last time you yourself posted something completely positive? It can be in response to something that was done or something that another person said. Don't take that as saying you are negative as I see you defend the game, and the players (such as right in the quoted post) all the time, but still have you started a positive thread in awhile?

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

The last few months, where they have not kept up with it, would be the "until recently" that I plainly referred to.

...

Over the course of, say, the past year, up to date a sizable majority of the time? Yes.

And this, on something tangible and completely not subjective, is where we completely disagree.

You believe the patcher has been up to date more-often-then-not in the last year. When, in fact, it has not been. It was briefly kept up to date around March of this year, and is currently behind one (nearly two) publish cycles. If you wish to cite a "team" who did better, I would suggest the one from before the post-SA purge - many of whom are still on the team, they are just fewer in number.

Using this as an example of something we should be positive about, when clearly it is something still needing a higher level of attention, rings hollow.

So "some form of positive reaction" Marty, in your world, is equivalent to this:

So we should be positive and upbeat while things remain unfinished, buggy, poorly 'drawn,' and the course UO is on seems tenuous at best? While this last as-yet-unpublished patch seems like a good start, that's all it is...a start.

which in context plainly refers to the 'cheerleader' mentality that you like to criticize so often?

I disagree.

Le sigh.

Passive aggressive word games aside, you know that's not what I meant. You originally talked about an increase in general 'negativity' in board posts. You then gave a brief list of a few items and their unequal reception from the players, and even implied that there should have been complements to the team.

I think criticisms and complements are both necessary and both need to be measured to what's actually going on.

Were this truly possible, we would have achieved world peace already.

People are going to filter both sentiments through their own feelings. What one person loves, another might hate, while yet another might not care at all.

Take the PvP "balance" changes as a current polarizing example. Some people love them, some people hate them, some just scratch their head and wonder why PvP always seems to adversely affect PvM. The opposing sides will state their cases loudly till blue in the face. The eventual "loser" (post-published change) may go off their rails with an apocryphal "I'm gonna quit!" post.

The cheerleader are the glass overflowing bunch who think the Devs were ordained by a supreme being, and will gush about everything they do regardless of any community displeasure. These people are the ones seemingly happy with unfinished systems and broken code.

Simply going "that's a cool feature!" or "wow, I like xyz mob/land/item/etc, keep up the good work" isn't cheerleading. Do the Devs hear this very often? No, probably not. The question then becomes...Why?

Is it because most Stratics posters are jaded vets who only like to shake their canes in anger? No.

Might it be that, on a whole, a great number of people aren't satisfied with (for example) the last year's worth of publishes? Are getting a bit leery of the spin-filled propaganda posts/videos that are heavy on fluff and light on substance? (And by substance, I mean concrete plans with prospective time tables. And no, I don't want to get into the "they screw themselves when they start giving deadlines" debate.)

I even think that there are some cool things in the upcoming pub. However, I will reserve judgement on the pubish as a whole until it has reached the production servers. Hopefully, it will retain the present feature set and be pushed out after being properly vetted on TC-1 and Origin.

I'm going to assume you sincerely don't realize what I'm talking about.

And will inform you.

So, in other words, what you said was a deliberate attempt at an ironic troll that backfired horribly?

M'kay.

 

[Nexus]

When was the last time you yourself posted something completely positive? It can be in response to something that was done or something that another person said. Don't take that as saying you are negative as I see you defend the game, and the players (such as right in the quoted post) all the time, but still have you started a positive thread in awhile?

Really the answer to that is well I do both, and even my criticisms are laid out in a structured polite manner. If you want a positive posting? how about this one , will it suffice? I clearly point out that the Devs are trying to listen to us, one of the reasons I do post the negative aspects I see in a polite manner, they listen they have feelings, but I don't believe in lying to them about what direction I feel the game is heading. One thing I rarely do though is directly criticise the Dev team, when I do though I usually take the time to explain why I am criticising their choices. EA I'll criticise all day long, I really do blame the majority of the State of the Game on them. Like I said earlier in this thread that the game has increased at least by 30% in content since AoS but the player base has decreased 70%, this I lay firmly on EA not providing the resources to UO since obviously things like "Word of Mouth Advertising", the KR and SA clients aren't working, and really I don't see how a new "New Player" experience for largely Non-existent new players can be justified as a reasonable expenditure of time and effort when there are so many things that even the Devs have admitted need fixed in UO are being left by the wayside.

See regardless of if I'm negative or not in posts, I strongly believe in using Tact, even if I'm being negative I'll be, often more than reasonably, polite about it. In other words, I'll call it like I see it, I won't pull punches but at the same time I won't hit below the belt either. When I have a genuinely positive experience with something relating to the development and design of the game I state as much in it's defence.

The thing is these days I can't see throwing content at everyone as being a real "Positive" any more just like I said earlier I call it as I see it. If UO follows the track it's on we're about 2 1/2 years from oblivion. From 2003 (250k+ Subs) to 2010 (60k-70k subs) we've lost about 70% of the player base. That's 10% a year, yet we see the same approach taken by the Devs and EA year in and year out. Content, Balancing, etc. The only real change was the introduction of the KR and SA clients, which have been a totally underwhelming experience due to the course they were forced to take because of the desire to maintain CC compatibility, and I totally get that I'm not faulting them for maintaining the CC. What I do fault is instead of making the CC compatible with a overhauled Server Back end so the KR/SA could take a real step in modernising UO they went the other route. I largely lay this at EA's feet as well I'm sure they had too tight a deadline, and not enough people to achieve such a thing.

But do you get what I'm saying here. There are positive things about UO that I do and continue to talk about, not necessarily here on the forums but to friends, family and other people who play or those I'm trying to get playing. But at the same time I can't sit back and provide positive feedback for continuing to run the same path and agenda that so far has seen such a decline in the player base, if for 7 years running you have lost 10% of your customers each year (on average) how long can you seriously continue down the same path?

Polishing up a website, isn't going to fix things (like DAoC is doing), and neither is everyone being all happy, happy, joy, joy either. There comes a point where the negativity will need to be addressed, not by us as players but by EA and the Devs. It's like I said in my first post in this thread:

The reason so many have left in my opinion is not because of lack of content, but because even with all the additional content, storyline, etc. UO has progressed very little in the eyes of the player base in years. How much content can you add before adding more doesn't really register? It's not that they hate the content that's being added, but there is so much that additional content simply isn't something to get excited about leading to a sense of being under whelmed by the offerings.

And to that let me add, how long can they continue to push out content, storyline etc., before the players simply get tired of other, issues in the game, even issues the devs themselves had admitted to being serious, get ignored or continually pushed back. How long can we sit here and watch the downward spiral without pushing back because we don't want to lose the game we are passionate about, yet we see no shift in direction happening. If lack of content, storyline, balancing, etc. aren't the root cause (and obviously they aren't), then why have we not seen the real issues posing the long term prosperity of the game being Addressed. The EC will always fall a step short as long as it's reliant on CC compatibility and not the other way around, Cheating will become more apparent as honest players leave due to frustration or lack of faith in the UO product over time. It's all interconnected. That's not to say they should abandon content additions either, but I criticise and when I do it is almost always written with the hope of, directed at and intended for some poor misguided intern at EA corporate to stumble on and hopefully make a note of.

So let me finish up with this:

When progress, true progress is made, when we see a positive shift in the overall picture then I'll be more forthcoming with praise, and join the masses in imagination land where everything is sweet and innocent and nothing bad ever encroaches. But until then, I'll praise the small victories when the opportunity arises, champion those I see doing the right thing the right way, and criticise when I see progress continue down a course that for nearly a decade has proven to be an incomplete path.

If I didn't I wouldn't be, being honest with my own feelings and opinions, and if I can't be honest with myself, how can anyone else expect me to be honest with them.

 

[MalagAste]

I often do criticize the DEV's... but at the same time I offer many more suggestions and alternative solutions... many of which a great number of other players agree with or like.

That said while I know it's not healthy for anyone to recieve loads of criticism it's also not good to praise what is done poorly.

More often than not the reason for the criticisms is because of a love of the game and a desire to see it improved and to keep from losing more players.

I'm sick and tired of logging in just to hear about another old friend leaving.

Often the reasons for leaving are simple... the players don't feel that the DEV's have any clue about the game or the players and the players who are leaving feel that the DEV's don't care and aren't going to "fix" the problems. They are often irritated with slow progress, bored, and tired of being strung along for yet another disappointment. Take KR for example. Here they promised a fantastic new client with all NEW graphics..... the pictures they supplied suggested things such as... in one picture the character is actually SITTING on a bed. Everyone gets hopes up that indeed this IS going to be possible... however the KR client is finally launched in a beta.... and lo and behold you can NOT sit on the bed.... infact that's not all that you can't do.... but things like sitting on your pet is totally borked... Players get irritated and disappointed a bit.... but still they try to persist and think that it's ok ..... it's just beta.... Beta drags on and on and on.... and while there are some VERY nice features to the Beta client..... when it's finally "released" from beta.... it's no longer KR it's the EC.... the graphics are the same old crap we've had since the beginning and what's worse is now you can zoom in to get all the ugly pixels right up close and unfocused. So folk lose all respect for the DEV's they get annoyed and they quit... what comes next???? we get the all new expansion with Ter Mur and Gargoyles and all that.... but wait.... it's incomplete ...... it remains incomplete for ages..... and ages and ages and infact it's STILL not complete to this day..... add in the HC fiasco with boats being all messed up... people finding the sea blocked by 100's of unmanned ships...


All this adds up to one HUGE disappointment after another. And then we wonder why folk leave in droves and have no care? I could go on about 50 other things that have either been promised or promoted or even hinted at that have led to folk's having serious issues with respect of the DEV's but I'd really rather not...

I've been highly optimistic for YEARS up until recently and anymore I find myself just not caring if I log in or not. I question myself as to if UO is worth what I pay for anymore. Most of my friends are long gone... even my enemies are mostly gone... now I'm left often bored and alone and feel almost like I'm playing a solo offline game... and well in my opinion if that is the way things are going to be... then I'd rather save myself a wad of cash and just play single player games.

I never thought I'd see the day when I just don't care anymore... but here it is.

So if you are wondering about the negativity and thinking how it came to this that's why.....


If you want to know how to stop it and reverse it and bring back the community.... I've given up. I don't know anymore... I thought I knew once... but I don't know anymore.

One thing I think that would help a great deal... the Dev's need to keep working on metafiction.... that has decent plotlines and stories that are well written and well laid out.

People want fun and excitement but not to be annihilated... The current questline is boring.... the monsters have WAY more HP than they need... they don't all carry a scroll so many folk get very quickly bored of killing them and trying to get scrolls... Added AI is good.... just giving monsters mega HP is not... making them one hit killers will not earn you points with players either...

Balance.... finishing what is strated... putting out good clean publishes that aren't broken... adding more content without alienating more players... bringing back some of the mystery of the game is fun...

I don't know it's late and I'm tired.

 

[HD2300]

I see 32,138 Veteran (non-guilded) Characters total, not accounts total, in MyUO and I am shocked. It is time for action not pom pom waving.

We as a community should push hard for positive action and results, not positive propaganda.

If there is anything I have learnt, positive propaganda has never got players anywhere. Take the most recent example of Seige. They agreed to "play nice" with their change requests, and they got a big fat nothing. It was like watching a train wreck in slow motion seeing them get totally screwed over. Conversely when EA just relocated Oceania to LA, Oceanians and their friends were extremely vocal, and Oceania got moved back to Australia.

That is what I am seeing now. We are on the Titanic, and well intentioned pom pom wavers are waving their pom poms saying lets gets closer to that iceberg because it is just so pretty, instead of shouting move the ship before it crashes and sinks.

 

[Woodsman]

The thing is these days I can't see throwing content at everyone as being a real "Positive" any more just like I said earlier I call it as I see it. If UO follows the track it's on we're about 2 1/2 years from oblivion. From 2003 (250k+ Subs) to 2010 (60k-70k subs) we've lost about 70% of the player base. That's 10% a year, yet we see the same approach taken by the Devs and EA year in and year out. Content, Balancing, etc.

I actually agree with you quite a bit, and I see the problem of throwing content at us without fixing other issues to be a major issue and also one that will end UO.

I'd throw in that being a sandbox-style game, even if it's not a full sandbox like in days of yore, that players play a part in the content, at least as far as what happens within the game. Most of us had our best experiences when UO was either growing in numbers or where things were somewhat crowded - we had a lot more people to go do stuff with, to sell to, to buy from, to work for or hire to work. They can have all of the story arcs they want, but a lot of content within the game is player-created, and that requires more players.

A few things I'm really concerned about: I'm still concerned that EA will try to make them devote a lot of time to booster packs, mini or otherwise. We saw what happened with the mini boosters we got recently - work on everything else had to practically stop while those were rushed out. It feels like they've moved away from the booster packs for now, to focus on fixes, the graphics update, and fleshing out areas from Stygian Abyss and High Seas, but I'm incredibly concerned that they'll get a mandate to pump out another booster pack or two which will take up several months and delay the graphics update and reduce the amount of bug and gameplay fixes. You can pretty much count on booster packs to slow down the major progress on fixing the bigger issues.

I'm also concerned about the graphics update. I'm not going to predict that it's a failure without seeing it like some of the forum cynics are doing, but I will say that it will affect how I view UO and whether EA is serious about once again growing UO's playerbase. If it's half-assed, it's not going to bring in new blood. All the content in the world doesn't matter if the younger players take on look, shrug their shoulders, and move on to something else. If they do the graphics update right and if they improve the EC, I will bug the **** out of the dozens of people that I've known over the years who have moved on to other games to come back and give things a shot. I will work out how to do video captures that I can upload to YouTube in high resolution. I would do a lot to get people who have left that I used to play with in-game to come back.

I'm also concerned about the cheating/scripting. The fact that Cal and Mesanna won't talk about it makes me wonder if they are doing so because somebody above them told them to ignore it or not talk about it, but that makes no sense to me. I don't want to go into tinfoil territory, so I'll just say I don't know what to think about it.

I will say this, I have seen improvements just since I've been back.

That horrible House of Commons thing at the beginning of the year that turned into, as somebody said, the "House of Can We Talk About That?" The devs saw that was a failure and left a lot of us frustrated as a lot of time was wasted on them deciding what they could or could not talk about. Since then, they moved to just telling us the stuff they can talk about, whether in a video or in writing. It also seems like communication has picked up in tempo as far as some of the bigger picture stuff. Those are both good things.

It seems like the quantity of fixes, both announced and unannounced has picked up. That's something that is desperately needed for the long-term and for keeping the veteran players around.

Fleshing out some of the previous areas or adding to skills, etc. I know that goes against what you said - adding content won't fix UO's problems of lack of new players. But some of these have been asked about for a long time. I'm not talking about the mini-booster packs mind you, but things like what was in the upcoming publish.

I really liked the Virtue Bane graphics. I thought he was pretty sharp looking. It seemed like he was almost in high resolution, as sharp as he was.

While these have been going on since before I came back, I have to say I really like some of the EM events I've participated in, although I think they are overrun by people who just want the items to throw up on their vendor. I have met many people who enjoy the EM events as a way to bring a group together that might not normally come together, and I like the idea of some of the EM events tying into the story arcs.

There are some really good things going on with UO, it's just that nobody knows what the long term plans are other than "new players" and even then we haven't seen too much that addresses that.

 

[Woodsman]

I see 32,138 Veteran (non-guilded) Characters total, not accounts total, in MyUO and I am shocked. It is time for action not pom pom waving.

I saw somebody say that there were 100,000 total non-guilded characters, so what's the difference between total and veteran besides 68,000 characters?

And do you have a grasp on how many guilded characters there are? Because the majority of players I run into in the heavily populated areas are usually in a guild.

 

[Woodsman]

Polishing up a website, isn't going to fix things (like DAoC is doing)

I wanted to post about this separately.

I know a good website isn't going to bring in a bunch of new players or fix things, but it's important for communicating with the players and it's where players normally go to find out important information. Right now, the design and the Facebook stuff and all of the broken links just don't cut it for new players and returning players.

Dark Age of Camelot - new and returning players can instantly see screenshots and a lot of information. UO - screenshots? Umm, there was some fan art on the front page

BioWare has a group of professional of webmasters and moderators who could easily handle improving UO's site - they are probably the ones that did the DAoC website since the DAoC website is now running on the same CMS software that UO and Star Wars are running on.

There is no excuse for there to be such a horrible design and so many broken links. It's not even handled by the UO team, so there is definitely no excuse, especially when you run into people who have no idea about EM events or other such events.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

So let me finish up with this:

When progress, true progress is made, when we see a positive shift in the overall picture then I'll be more forthcoming with praise, and join the masses in imagination land where everything is sweet and innocent and nothing bad ever encroaches. But until then, I'll praise the small victories when the opportunity arises, champion those I see doing the right thing the right way, and criticise when I see progress continue down a course that for nearly a decade has proven to be an incomplete path.

If I didn't I wouldn't be, being honest with my own feelings and opinions, and if I can't be honest with myself, how can anyone else expect me to be honest with them.

Forgive me for shortening your post in my quote ahead of time.

To be fair I do give you more credit than anyone else I have replied to, as I said you have posted in a positive manner both in defense of the Developers (ala the information you provided about your visit) and in defense of the players (ala most of the posts in this thread). And I do agree with you on pretty much all points, I was only using the example to point out that negative opinions will be heard more often than positive ones, no matter who the person in question is. Also pointed out that most people (if not everyone) will post something negative they hear in game as apposed to posting something positive they hear someone say in game, it is not a fault of anyone's that this happens it is simply that when things are good, people tend to just relish in the glory of the goodness, but when even a small thing goes wrong, people will toss their arms up and make a bigger deal out of something than needed.

You criticism and critiquing are very well worded and polite, and as such is more positive in nature than the whining most people do (again not everyone and I am not grouping anyone anywhere simply stating the tone of a majority of posts, not the tone of the person or persons posting them.)

Criticism by nature is not negative, but in fact positive as it shows you are aware of the situation and see how it could be better. It is when simple things come under criticism when none was actually needed that it becomes an issue. Of course most of this is my opinion and everyone else has their own.

I often do criticize the DEV's... but at the same time I offer many more suggestions and alternative solutions... many of which a great number of other players agree with or like.

That said while I know it's not healthy for anyone to recieve loads of criticism it's also not good to praise what is done poorly.

Offering solutions is more than just criticism, and I do not say that in a bad way at all. And it is not entirely unhealthy to receive a ton of criticism, not all people do or need to view something that is "unsuccessful" as being a failure, and as such a critique of something they have worked on only helps them to strive towards the end result they themselves seek. An example of such would be, if I am not mistaken, Jonas Salk (the finder of one of the Polio vaccines) Said something along the lines of "I did not have 200 failures, We in my family do not believe in failure, but in experiences. I had 200 experiences which lead me to the 201st experience, that which is the polio vaccine" when asked what helped him to press on after so many failures.

I could be wrong about the quote, but I am sure everyone understands the concept. This is not to put down the idea of encouragement (which is not the same as praise and is something we need more of around here) simply showing that each task leads us somewhere and they are not roadblocks as people might perceive.

Edit: Nexus we are in agreement about the Content situation, especially content that adds more places to go to thus lowering the already small chance of running into a person on most shards. I know I never wish for new content, only for the stuff we have to get a revamp or fixed and so on. (forgot about that in the original post since I cut most of your post out x.x)

 

[RaDian FlGith]

While I am quite certain that "Galen Online" would be the best and most successful MMO of all time, this is not it, and I do not expect all of this particular game to appeal to me.

And yet, I do think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head with certain systems that the Devs have been working on as "expansion ideas" these days...

Let me go back to AoS:

Necromancy, Chivalry, Doom, and Custom Housing (not to mention house space) -- on their own, only Custom Housing would have had a chance in Hades as standing alone as an expansion by itself, yet, by including all three, not to mention little things here and there for crafters and so forth, Age of Shadows had a wide appeal.

Samurai Empire with Ninjitsu, Bushido, new dungeons, new housing space, some new tiles, tons of crafting stuff... alone, not one of these things would have been worthy as an expansion, but packaged together, there was reason for people to purchase it.

Mondain's Legacy brought Spellweaving, elves, quests, crafting recipes, and a few new areas to explore. I would be willing to stake that ML sold less than SE, and while one could argue that it's based on open accounts, I'd also be willing to bet that as a percentage of open accounts, ML sold less. This is because, again, on their own, no one piece of ML was worthy of an expansion, but as a combined group, there was not as much of interest as the previous expansions. But then... and wisely... EA tied in a 20% housing increase, so if ML sold as well as SE, I would point to that as the reason it did so, because that was a generic enough piece for some to say, "Yeah, it's worth it for that reason." (Another character slot too as I recall, but I won't swear to it).

That brings us to Stygian Abyss: HUGE new area to explore, LOTS of new crafting stuff, more housing, gargoyles, Mysticism, Imbuing, Throwing, and on and on... Stygian Abyss by far was a lot more worthy an expansion than anything previous -- as a combined unit. But consider if they had split it up piecemeal... what would it have been? Hard to say.

What I can say is this: High Seas had a limited scope of saleability as an expansion. No mystery then that the Booster Pack included increased housing. Because if you weren't going to be playing on the seas or fishing (and let's be honest... neither was long-term for anyone not already interested in that stuff), there wasn't any reason to buy the pack. And yet, everyone has a house, and nearly everyone could use more storage. Sure, there were people who had been asking for some of the stuff in High Seas forever, but, you know, most of us would have continued to play UO for ages with or without the boat movement fix. Some nice improvements that should have been either crowd-pleaser fixes (boat movement) or a publish (the rest of the "expansion") were instead packaged as a booster. Okay, fine... again, they provided a reason for those of us not all that excited by it to purchase it. They also blew away quite a bit of their positive outlook on the whole booster thing by going ahead and going from pre-alpha to release in six weeks and releasing yet another very buggy release (not wise in this day and age).

This brings us to the lackluster Gothic and Rustic mini-boosters. The whole "encampment system" as a sales point is silly... that should just have been put into the game, period. The housing tiles, sure, but sell 'em separately at a lesser rate. Individual pieces of these two mini-boosters might do well as add-ons to the existing game, but they aren't "expansion quality" releases. Tying them all together was a bit silly, honestly, and they probably could have made more had they broken things down a bit better and then included multi-packs or theme packs together.

As for brewing... meh. Let's just say there were less people over the years asking for brewing than there ever were asking for improvements to fishing and sailing. Is it a nice addition to the game? Sure. Is anything it's tied to -- in my opinion -- worth the purchase? No. And therein lies the problem... as a whole, neither of these mini-boosters is worth (comparatively) what they're asking for them, and even as a combination pack they don't offer (comparatively) even what High Seas offered for the same price.

It's not that the Dev Team should be designing Galen Online or Ra'Dian Online or Martyna Online or any of that, but they should be targeting larger than Vocal Minority That Had An Idea Six Years Ago (Let's Hope They're Still Playing) Online. They're getting narrower and narrower in focus, and what they're asking $9.99 or $14.99 for these days is far less than what they used to provide for the money.

Now, yes, the argument exists that compared to other silliness on the UO store these packages are probably worth the money. The issue then, of course, is where does the line between UO Store silliness and Game Expansion begin to blur, particularly when it comes to price and offerings. At this point, I think we've seen the last of the Stygian Abyss level expansions, which we should all mourn, and we've also seen the last of the High Seas level expansions... I think we're down to the UO Store Nickel & Dime expansions, and we should not be celebrating that at all.

 

[5% Luck]

I know player want to break things down to this dev team or that one and watch closely as they are compared side by side via content introduction. But what I think players are failing to realize is the market over that same period of time has changed drastically.

Think about this: When a player was deciding on buying an X-pac at one time it was a disk. Not much in the way of digital download. I find that since the industry changed over to digital the over all quality has dropped. Not just with UO but industry wide. When a company is filling out a "disk" a certain amount of data was required.

We were still coming in from before the music industry had fallen apart and CDs needed a certain playtime to be considered buy-able and even THEY started up with double cd sets for double money for the same playtime.

That can be transferred over to game company's and digital downloads. Once we started buying up digital downloads we as consumers were more apt to take it in the rear as far as quantity and quality because it saved us a trip to the store. And remember by this time music was basically free for everyone.

Now we are looking back at the difference between buying a disk and buying a digital downloaded X-pac and wondering what happened. I mean really if you look at it, it is cheaper to develop and distribute. And more players are willing to buy it for sake of ease. If I was a CEO I would have all that in mind as I ployed my trade!

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Just an example is this... the last thing I tried to do in UO was plant ONE plant in magincia... there are pests and whatnot in magincia, I tought I'll go with one and see how it goes.

I tought how great, they want to engourage us to rebuild magincia so I'm going to put all nice flowers around my guildhouse, you know make a garden.

But lo and behold (in real life I have a thriving garden, and I can go camping over the weekend.)

Lemme repeat that : I can go camping over the weekend, and my garden is still alive when I come back !

So I learned that it never rains in magincia, that the gardeners cannot be hired to water my plants.

This is one of about a hundred different things that I find completely stupid about this new scam "we'll rebuild magincia but you have to do it yourselves and even more ; pay for it"

And pay for it to keep your plants alive, and pay for it to get custom tiles.

All I can compare the UO community now is a dry, very dry sea sponge, and well they're wrigning it like there was no tomorrow ; they'll even call Conan the barbarian if needed to squeeze the last drop off.

It never rains in magincia... so when the last drops of water were squeezed from the sponge, they tought hey what if we pour some distilled water on top, leech more of the precious minerals off. Well water soaks your minds and makes you forget everytime it seems, but then at one point, there is no more precious minerals in the sponge, it dies and becomes something to be used, then thrown away.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

And this, on something tangible and completely not subjective, is where we completely disagree.

And, unfortunately, I am unaware of any source that can be used to settle our factual dispute.

We have only our own memories.

I am sure you will forgive me the sin of not favoring your memory over mine in this instance.

You've heard me admit to being incorrect enough times to know that I am capable of doing so, yes?

Passive aggressive word games aside, you know that's not what I meant.

Actually I quite sincerely thought it was exactly what you meant.

Your concern with cheerleaders is quite well known. To the point where I've long thought you considered me one, which is a shame, because I am capable of criticism and complements; I merely find both to be useful and either only a denial of reality in isolation from the other.

People are going to filter both sentiments through their own feelings. What one person loves, another might hate, while yet another might not care at all

.

And when we have only filtered sentiments, ever, and only in one direction, which is where I think we're going?

Then we've got an issue,

The cheerleader are the glass overflowing bunch who think the Devs were ordained by a supreme being, and will gush about everything they do regardless of any community displeasure. These people are the ones seemingly happy with unfinished systems and broken code.

Per this definition I am unaware of any cheerleaders on Stratics for years and years now.

Frankly I'd like to have some just for balancing.

Per my own, looser definition (if something so fuzzy and undefined can be called a 'definition' at all), I still can't think of one offhand.

I could easily be forgetting something.

Simply going "that's a cool feature!" or "wow, I like xyz mob/land/item/etc, keep up the good work" isn't cheerleading.

Thank you for admitting this. We've spoken before, in private and in in public, about how I agree with you more often than I disagree, with the exception that I oft-find your points wildly exaggerated.

Do the Devs hear this very often? No, probably not. The question then becomes...Why?

Is it because most Stratics posters are jaded vets who only like to shake their canes in anger? No.

I think yes, at least in part.

And the difficulty with that, to my mind, is that we are losing our ability to discern between categories and easily put everything into the "dislike" category.

So, in other words, what you said was a deliberate attempt at an ironic troll that backfired horribly?

M'kay.

Horribly is an exaggeration, but yes the characterization is mostly accurate, and yes it surely backfired.

I hadn't anticipated anyone thinking I was sincere, let alone accurate.

When people did I was at first amused, then depressed.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

As I understand it the crux of your argument is that each successive UO expansion has been pitched to a smaller and smaller audience and hence has received a smaller and smaller audience, as a proportion of the player base.

There's also a normative/preferential argument in there, I think anyway, about what kinds of expansion you prefer. That I won't address; a preference is just that, a preference.

I disagree with your empirical argument (at least up till Adventures on the High Seas and since) for the following reason.

The only evidence I can think of to judge it is by people that I know and message board "chatter." And, based on that, most people I knew or knew of bought most of those expansions straight away, up to Adventures on the High Seas. Most of that expansion (I'm calling it 'expansion' to put it int he same category as Age of Shadows and Samurai Empire and the like, because it seems you're considering them all together in your post) was indeed pitched at a subset audience: Pirates, fishermen, and other seafarers. (When I got Corgul's Helm I had to cut the price in half to sell it simply because, despite how awesome an item it is, there were not enough people who'd bought the expansion to have a big audience to sell it to.)

I, for one, don't mind that though, for this reason: The pirates, fishermen, etc., the ones who love the seas are ****ing awesome. They and other players similarly situated have really had a positive impact on the game. They are the kinds of players who RP without necessarily understanding themselves as RPing. (Some do understand themselves as such, but not all.) They play and enjoy content that lets their characters make a decent living but is unlikely to make them super-rich in short order. They are great people. Those players are one component of the glue that holds this game together.

And, while boat travel's never been my thing, really, I have always appreciated the romance of it and understood its appeal.

As to the two theme packs......Well, I haven't bought them. I don't anticipate buying them.

As far as I can figure they are in essence a few micro-transactions bundled together. There is more stuff and more good stuff in the upcoming Publish than there was in those booster packs. (And I am glad for that.)

-Galen's player

And yet, I do think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head with certain systems that the Devs have been working on as "expansion ideas" these days...

Let me go back to AoS:

Necromancy, Chivalry, Doom, and Custom Housing (not to mention house space) -- on their own, only Custom Housing would have had a chance in Hades as standing alone as an expansion by itself, yet, by including all three, not to mention little things here and there for crafters and so forth, Age of Shadows had a wide appeal.

Samurai Empire with Ninjitsu, Bushido, new dungeons, new housing space, some new tiles, tons of crafting stuff... alone, not one of these things would have been worthy as an expansion, but packaged together, there was reason for people to purchase it.

Mondain's Legacy brought Spellweaving, elves, quests, crafting recipes, and a few new areas to explore. I would be willing to stake that ML sold less than SE, and while one could argue that it's based on open accounts, I'd also be willing to bet that as a percentage of open accounts, ML sold less. This is because, again, on their own, no one piece of ML was worthy of an expansion, but as a combined group, there was not as much of interest as the previous expansions. But then... and wisely... EA tied in a 20% housing increase, so if ML sold as well as SE, I would point to that as the reason it did so, because that was a generic enough piece for some to say, "Yeah, it's worth it for that reason." (Another character slot too as I recall, but I won't swear to it).

That brings us to Stygian Abyss: HUGE new area to explore, LOTS of new crafting stuff, more housing, gargoyles, Mysticism, Imbuing, Throwing, and on and on... Stygian Abyss by far was a lot more worthy an expansion than anything previous -- as a combined unit. But consider if they had split it up piecemeal... what would it have been? Hard to say.

What I can say is this: High Seas had a limited scope of saleability as an expansion. No mystery then that the Booster Pack included increased housing. Because if you weren't going to be playing on the seas or fishing (and let's be honest... neither was long-term for anyone not already interested in that stuff), there wasn't any reason to buy the pack. And yet, everyone has a house, and nearly everyone could use more storage. Sure, there were people who had been asking for some of the stuff in High Seas forever, but, you know, most of us would have continued to play UO for ages with or without the boat movement fix. Some nice improvements that should have been either crowd-pleaser fixes (boat movement) or a publish (the rest of the "expansion") were instead packaged as a booster. Okay, fine... again, they provided a reason for those of us not all that excited by it to purchase it. They also blew away quite a bit of their positive outlook on the whole booster thing by going ahead and going from pre-alpha to release in six weeks and releasing yet another very buggy release (not wise in this day and age).

This brings us to the lackluster Gothic and Rustic mini-boosters. The whole "encampment system" as a sales point is silly... that should just have been put into the game, period. The housing tiles, sure, but sell 'em separately at a lesser rate. Individual pieces of these two mini-boosters might do well as add-ons to the existing game, but they aren't "expansion quality" releases. Tying them all together was a bit silly, honestly, and they probably could have made more had they broken things down a bit better and then included multi-packs or theme packs together.

As for brewing... meh. Let's just say there were less people over the years asking for brewing than there ever were asking for improvements to fishing and sailing. Is it a nice addition to the game? Sure. Is anything it's tied to -- in my opinion -- worth the purchase? No. And therein lies the problem... as a whole, neither of these mini-boosters is worth (comparatively) what they're asking for them, and even as a combination pack they don't offer (comparatively) even what High Seas offered for the same price.

It's not that the Dev Team should be designing Galen Online or Ra'Dian Online or Martyna Online or any of that, but they should be targeting larger than Vocal Minority That Had An Idea Six Years Ago (Let's Hope They're Still Playing) Online. They're getting narrower and narrower in focus, and what they're asking $9.99 or $14.99 for these days is far less than what they used to provide for the money.

Now, yes, the argument exists that compared to other silliness on the UO store these packages are probably worth the money. The issue then, of course, is where does the line between UO Store silliness and Game Expansion begin to blur, particularly when it comes to price and offerings. At this point, I think we've seen the last of the Stygian Abyss level expansions, which we should all mourn, and we've also seen the last of the High Seas level expansions... I think we're down to the UO Store Nickel & Dime expansions, and we should not be celebrating that at all.

 

[Tina Small]

I very well could be wrong on this and of course there's no way to get confirmation, but it seems to me that if the team is spending the time and money to improve the Enhanced Client and add content to attract new players, they also must have another SA-type expansion up their sleeves to roll out shortly after they substantially meet their goals for the EC and new player content.

Six to nine months ago, I didn't feel this way, but at the moment I'm feeling fairly optimistic about UO's future. I have a hunch something fairly "earth-shattering" may happen in connection with the work being done by Netdragon. Just a hunch though.

 

[HD2300]

I have a hunch something fairly "earth-shattering" may happen in connection with the work being done by Netdragon.

The reality is UO has a part-time dev team. So unless Cal posts screenshots, in all likelihood all the new player and EC graphic update promises are this years version of pvp factions, the classic shard, and anti-cheating detection... 100% horsepucky.

It is just not going to happen when the dev team is working on SWTOR or Ultima4Ever instead. UO is in a holding pattern until NetDragon and/or Ultima4Ever take over, as that will be where all the Ultima action, new content, mass players and excitement will be.

 

[Woodsman]

As far as I can figure they are in essence a few micro-transactions bundled together. There is more stuff and more good stuff in the upcoming Publish than there was in those booster packs. (And I am glad for that.)

Either the mini-boosters were done in a much shorter time than we think, or they were done with a smaller group within the UO dev team. I hesitate to use the word cobbled together, but for lack of a better word, these mini boosters feel like some individual pieces that were thrown together into some bundles and pushed out. Cal stated that things had changed back in January, so I'm still wondering if they threw this bundle together as one last little revenue boost/booster pack before tackling other things.

As of two weeks ago, we are supposed to see the first of the new graphics this month or next month, and it's probably next month since they haven't finished deploying the latest publish, so that's going to be a big indication of how UO is going to me.

After ignoring it for the past few years since Mythic was put under BioWare, BioWare has finally started to take ownership of the Ultima franchise as well as Dark Age of Camelot. With the graphics update for UO, we'll have an idea of just how serious they are. We'll see if the stories that there are a lot of Ultima fanboys within BioWare are true.

 

[HD2300]

As of two weeks ago, we are supposed to see the first of the new graphics this month or next month, and it's probably next month since they haven't finished deploying the latest publish, so that's going to be a big indication of how UO is going to me.

... We'll see if the stories that there are a lot of Ultima fanboys within BioWare are true.

EA Louse already leaked last year the top secret project that they are working on Ultima4Ever, the 2011 version of Ultima. It is not an Ultima Online expansion, think of it as UO 2 or UO 2011.

Where exactly did they say that the graphics update is in the next publish, to be released this month or next month?

 

[Woodsman]

EA Louse already leaked last year the top secret project that they are working on Ultima4Ever, the 2011 version of Ultima. It is not an Ultima Online expansion, think of it as UO 2 or UO 2011.

UltimaForever has nothing to do directly with UO and I never said it did. If there are Ultima fanboys in BioWare, they will support UO though. They did give UO a nice mention on the UltimaForever website, but still haven't seen much other BioWare support. Dark Age of Camelot got official BioWare branding, we didn't.

Where exactly did they say that the graphics update is in the next publish, to be released this month or next month?

It's this website called UOHerald.com. Maybe you've heard of it Cal said they were splitting things up into two publishes, the one we just got, Publish 71.0.0 that is in testing on the TC with the client work, bug fixes, Ter Mur stuff, etc. and then the next publish with the clean up stuff, anniversary and veteran rewards, and graphics updates. Because they seemed to have gotten the 71.0.0 publish out later than expected, the one with the cleaning, vet/anniversary gifts and graphics update will probably not be until August.

August is kind of pushing it though, since it's getting close to the anniversary/veteran rewards date in September.

 

[HD2300]

(posted July 2)
In addition, in the next several weeks, we'll be adding client crash fixes, publishing the second phase of the current live story Ter Mur, and releasing a healthy dose of gameplay bug fixes.
We decide to split all of our content into two separate publishes. After July expect to see the following:

• Clean up Britannia (the update formerly known as Spring Cleaning) - We are currently testing and evaluating about 850 items with turn ins and rewards
• Anniversary item additions
• Art resolution updates to the Enhanced client
• Veteran Rewards

They didnt post Clean up Brit and Anniversary items, EC graphics updates and Vet Rewards would ALL be in the next publish. They said expect to see them after July. It could be Nov, it could be Feb 2012. For example The Anniversary items were published Oct 28 last year (see Publish 68.3 - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia).

To show that EA does care for its players, to show progress, and out of goodwill to all its players, Cal should at least post a screenshot(s) since it only takes one minute to do.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

As I understand it the crux of your argument is that each successive UO expansion has been pitched to a smaller and smaller audience and hence has received a smaller and smaller audience, as a proportion of the player base.

I suppose I could have saved space, but was trying to demonstrate with the history of the expansion packs... My argument is this: The expansion packs prior to UO:HS succeeded all to some level because they were geared to many portions of their subscriber-base. Those who enjoyed crafting found new craftables, those who enjoyed housing found new housing tiles, those who enjoyed PvE found new places to go, and so on. There was sort of a "one size fits all" model to previous expansions that caused most players to upgrade at least some of their accounts to them.

Enter UO:HS.

It was very limited in scope. Most of it was centered (not ironically) around fishing and sea adventure. For a majority of the subscriber-base, it was a curiosity at best, and a potential reason to upgrade, but not a huge reason. Enter the increase in storage space. At $14.99, the expansion pack was cheap enough with enough content in and of itself that including the storage space increase was enough of a move to make it "one size fits all," or in other words, "Even if you won't use a single thing from the expansion pack other than this, you will appreciate the storage space." Again, as I think I said earlier, not a bad move on EA's part... it made the pack viable. (I'll skip out on the buggy-release mantra here, as it's been recited ad nauseum prior to this in this and other threads... heh).

There's also a normative/preferential argument in there, I think anyway, about what kinds of expansion you prefer. That I won't address; a preference is just that, a preference.

Not at all. Simply a list of what was largely included in them. I did, of course, fail to mention the PvP areas of UO:ML and SA but then, those are mostly bones to the PvP crowd anyway, and they'll be the first to remind us of that.

I disagree with your empirical argument (at least up till Adventures on the High Seas and since) for the following reason.

The only evidence I can think of to judge it is by people that I know and message board "chatter." And, based on that, most people I knew or knew of bought most of those expansions straight away, up to Adventures on the High Seas. Most of that expansion (I'm calling it 'expansion' to put it int he same category as Age of Shadows and Samurai Empire and the like, because it seems you're considering them all together in your post) was indeed pitched at a subset audience: Pirates, fishermen, and other seafarers. (When I got Corgul's Helm I had to cut the price in half to sell it simply because, despite how awesome an item it is, there were not enough people who'd bought the expansion to have a big audience to sell it to.)

I'm not quite sure what you're disagreeing with... in fact, you post evidence to support my point. The prior expansion packs were purchased because there was something for everyone. There wasn't any reason to hem and haw over it because, you know, there was something there everyone could use in one form or another. That is, in fact, the crux of my argument.

I, for one, don't mind that though, for this reason: The pirates, fishermen, etc., the ones who love the seas are ****ing awesome. They and other players similarly situated have really had a positive impact on the game. They are the kinds of players who RP without necessarily understanding themselves as RPing. (Some do understand themselves as such, but not all.) They play and enjoy content that lets their characters make a decent living but is unlikely to make them super-rich in short order. They are great people. Those players are one component of the glue that holds this game together.

I'm with you except for them being large enough of a group to be considered "the glue that holds this game together." That's my issue with the way HS was executed (but again, brilliant move in making it openly marketable by way of including the storage increase)... From a wholly marketing perspective, banking on ALL of your players to buy an expansion geared at 1/10th or 1/100th of your playerbase isn't a wise way to go.

And, while boat travel's never been my thing, really, I have always appreciated the romance of it and understood its appeal.

Well, don't get me wrong... I think that the inclusion of the High Seas stuff into the game is worthy of being part of the game. I just don't think that it would have sold as well without the inclusion of the storage space increase. And while I don't have any physical proof I could thrust in front of anyone and point at saying, "I was right," I think anyone with a background in marketing would agree that the intent of that was to make the target of HS wider than the demographic it would have otherwise appealed to.

As to the two theme packs......Well, I haven't bought them. I don't anticipate buying them.

As far as I can figure they are in essence a few micro-transactions bundled together. There is more stuff and more good stuff in the upcoming Publish than there was in those booster packs. (And I am glad for that.)

I agree that the mini-boosters on the whole are micro-transaction style stuff bundled together, but it's that decision that confuses me the most. If you want to promote micro-transactions, you set them out in a "buy X piece at X dollars," and then make a package to bundle them together. As it stands, you get X-mini-booster for X-price or X+Y-mini-booster for Y-price.

The issue I have with that, again from a marketing perspective, is that now your micro-transactions and your booster packs are at the same price point, but what you get from a booster pack (UO:HS being the only example, but a solid one to compare against) is more than what you expect from a micro-transaction, even bundled together. At this point, the lines have met, and when you compare $14.99 for the two mini-boosters or $14.99 for UO:HS, for the value, I'd take UO:HS any day of the week. Gothic and Rustic aren't promoting micro-transactions, they're actually detracting from them. I suspect -- and we'll never know for sure -- that sales on Gothic and Rustic or Gothic+Rustic are far less than expected.

At any rate, the totality of what I'm saying is this: We're looking at a UO where the word "expansion" may not come again; at a UO where "booster" was supposed to be the new terminology for content updates that we'd pay for; and at a UO where "mini-booster," priced at 2/3 the price of a "booster" (or equal price for both) does not provide the same level of content as the prior "booster." It's not a great direction to be looking at from a player perspective or a marketing perspective.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

to celebrate UO's birthday, UO goes free to play on 9/27 and relies on custom booster packs that aim at very definite niches in the remaining player pool...

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I'm not quite sure what you're disagreeing with... in fact, you post evidence to support my point.

I misunderstood your argument; I thought you were pointing toward a general regression (less and less interest per expansion). I disagreed as I understood it; I would appear to agree with it as it actually was.

I'm with you except for them being large enough of a group to be considered "the glue that holds this game together."

Eh. If we mean sea-folks, then probably not, but there's more of them than you give credit for. Fishing Council of Britannia appears to have more active members than the our RP alliance does.

I was thinking more broadly though. A subset of active but more-casual players who play to have fun and RP their characters daily lives (even if they don't understand themselves consciously as RPing). The folks who farm on low- to mid-end monsters for drinking money and don't smack talk much if at all.

It is, I realize, something of a stretch to consider that category in relation to the AHS booster though.

And while I don't have any physical proof I could thrust in front of anyone

I mostly use anecdotes and observations of different sorts. That's all we really have for this ****.

These anecdotes and observations support your being right that AHS didn't sell as well as a % of the players as previous expansions had (at least didn't sell as well as quickly; most seem to have it now but it took a long while):

• Corgul's Helm, a very useful item, wasn't in wide use until long after the booster;
• I ran into many people when trying to sell that item who couldn't use it because they didn't have AHS;
• I only saw fish pies for sale pretty recently and AHS has been out for awhile now!;
• Just from talking to people most people didn't have it until recently.

I agree that the mini-boosters on the whole are micro-transaction style stuff bundled together, but it's that decision that confuses me the most.

That feels like an EA corporate decision to me. All the way, from nave to chops, EA corporate.

And why? Because it is about the same mentality that led EA to pay millions for Tetris, on the basis of its familiarity, then to mess with the game as released for cell phones, thus screwing with its familiarity, the very thing that made it worth millions and millions to begin with.

We're looking at a UO where the word "expansion" may not come again

Agreed; if we ever get another full on expansion I will be very surprised.

Having said that? I think even if an expansion were possible they should go the small content batches route for years to come. Thinking smaller isn't necessarily bad. We're a nice game now.

I'm very divided on if it's a good idea to demand payment for any new content save for micro transactions.

I say give us small-ish content (say, the equivalent of 2 AHS per year), for no additional fee, every once in awhile have a new micro transaction, and keep that up for 2 to 4 years and reassess.

Of course we're veering from the topic of the post.

If we woke up tomorrow and things were awesome, would we know it? Have we lost our ability to be optimistic even in the face of reasonable causes for optimism?

-Galen's player

 

[HD2300]

Keep Positive Comrades and Paid EMs. The Good news is that from authentic sources, many authentic sources, UO hasnt lost 1/2 its players in the last 2 years, it has actually doubled its players. Really.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Keep Positive Comrades and Paid EMs. The Good news is that from authentic sources, many authentic sources, UO hasnt lost 1/2 its players in the last 2 years, it has actually doubled its players. Really.

Thank you for what could not possibly be a better example of what I was talking about.

-Galen's player

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Don't start thanking him... he'll think he's actually useful

 

[Zyon Rockler]

To much emotion and opinion, really. Stop being so human! I want this, I don't like that, We have to look at things as how and why only.

Another thing, if it advances or makes better, this does not mean finished. Also, the idea will carry onto not just UO but The Ultimate Online Game.

So, our focus is not UO, it is UO's opportunity for change.

Here is the real question, Do the Devs control change or do the players? Also, if the Devs, somewhat rely on the players, What is the affect of EA on the limits to complete any task?

So, as the ultimate goal is not met, was the change made in the right direction of the next step. Did the Devs do a good job or fail the concept.

Why did the poster post. Why did the Dev make the changes. Do we say, I will trust the Devs or do we have no faith in their ability at all. As a poster, do we even know what the game is like. Also, can we tell from a small change, the Devs ultimate plan or is there a plan at all?

Ok, so can the Devs ever finish or make change as long as people complain and how much time is wasted back-stepping.

We must go forward. Allow change and build to advance UO in it's concepts of what it was invisioned to be.

In my opinion, If there was a switch added that did not ever work, we should give this switch purpose and allow it to work. As more things can make it seem real or more life like.

Some people look at PvP or PvM, some look at crafting. We have to be able to see the world, even it's Solar System or it's tiniest part to understand change.

We also need a way to decide what to do next? What change?

I just went through this test like a poll, where we took a list of 10 things and then put a number aside of it. 1 being the most important and 10 being the least. The interesting thing to me was, almost everyone agreed with 1 and 10. Some were in the middle. People were very divided.

Here's the thing, we each have our own ideas and have learned different things. We all do different things in the game but we will all agree on certain things. This is a must to move forward.

An example: is, if you took a step out of a staircase, everyone would agree it should go back, even though we would all have different reasons as to why.

The problem is getting everyone to use the same staircase. So, we all see the problem the same way. Also, take into account, this is not an opinion, it becomes a fact.

It's something that now must be done rather than something we have a debate on.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

ac dc big balls - Bing Videos

 

[Woodsman]

Here's the thing, we each have our own ideas and have learned different things. We all do different things in the game but we will all agree on certain things. This is a must to move forward.

An example: is, if you took a step out of a staircase, everyone would agree it should go back, even though we would all have different reasons as to why.

The problem is getting everyone to use the same staircase. So, we all see the problem the same way. Also, take into account, this is not an opinion, it becomes a fact.

It's something that now must be done rather than something we have a debate on.

I do think that one thing we all agree upon is that we need an influx of players (returning or new) if UO is to keep on chugging along into the future. UO's best times as a whole were when things were a lot more populated or UO was growing. This downward trend of the subscriptions over the past five years does not help but make players worry.

I see threads where people complain about the economy, and a big part of that problem is that outside of a couple of shards, the majority of shards need a lot more players to help with the vendor situation, either buying from vendors or stocking vendors.

I see a lot of people that are bored, that probably would see things differently if they had several new players to help out.

I know that in between the time that it was announced that we were getting new graphics, a new, new player exerience, and a new questing system that they had to push out New Magincia and the mini-boosters, but I think it would be good for Cal to talk about their goals and ideas for bringing in new players and to show off some of those things. I'm not taking HD3200's side necessarily, but I'd like to see some screenshots of the new graphics, and maybe here some of the ideas they are kicking around about new players.

We had several threads dealing with our ideas for new players and there is still one stickied at the top of the forum, but I think they ought to open a dialogue with us about it, since New Magincia is done, the mini-boosters are out, and they are wrapping up the latest publish that just hit the TC.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I do think that one thing we all agree upon is that we need an influx of players (returning or new) if UO is to keep on chugging along into the future. UO's best times as a whole were when things were a lot more populated or UO was growing. This downward trend of the subscriptions over the past five years does not help but make players worry.

I see threads where people complain about the economy, and a big part of that problem is that outside of a couple of shards, the majority of shards need a lot more players to help with the vendor situation, either buying from vendors or stocking vendors.

I see a lot of people that are bored, that probably would see things differently if they had several new players to help out.

I know that in between the time that it was announced that we were getting new graphics, a new, new player exerience, and a new questing system that they had to push out New Magincia and the mini-boosters, but I think it would be good for Cal to talk about their goals and ideas for bringing in new players and to show off some of those things. I'm not taking HD3200's side necessarily, but I'd like to see some screenshots of the new graphics, and maybe here some of the ideas they are kicking around about new players.

We had several threads dealing with our ideas for new players and there is still one stickied at the top of the forum, but I think they ought to open a dialogue with us about it, since New Magincia is done, the mini-boosters are out, and they are wrapping up the latest publish that just hit the TC.

I agree with you on this. I think the Developers should communicate all their Ideas and plans as they come with them, so as a whole we can all, Players and Developers, see what the ultimate goal of everything is.

Also with us the developers can end up with a better over all outcome, not because we know what is best, but because we at least represent the player base to some extent and therefore have an idea as to what would or wouldn't be accepted. The more we all agree on something the better the outcome, does not matter if it is game development or buying a new car.

 

[Roland']

.Same can be said here, just because we do not know what goes on or what is "ALLOWED" to go on, does not make us the judge or the jury. We as the current population of a Tyrannical government (the Company in which the UO brand belongs to) have no rights to anything that has happened is happening or will happen, and with out this realization we believe everything should be in direct pleasure to us and not in correspondence to what the Dictators say it should be, or their "vision" as it were.

EA is not a tyrannical government though. It is a business and its in the business of making money. Last i checked a good way to sell your product was to make your customers happy.

But using your terms thinking of UO as a goverment with a vision, if no one likes the vision then the people riot, or in our case we unsub. Which i did months ago. I check back to look for improvement. Sadly none yet.

 

[Lorax_Pacific]

I can not recall seeing a single topic or mention of anyone asking for brewing to be added. Of course some people must have, but this was definitely not a feature being demanded by any sizable number of people.

And those people who did ask for it are probably really disappointed they had to pay for it.

You would have to go back to posts before stratics crashed. I was one that asked for it, but that was like 10 years ago. My paperdoll on Lorax used to talk about my favorite homebrew "Grandpoppies Hoppy Porter". I brewed that up during college maybe 15 years ago and loved it as it was extremely hoppy and no one liked it except me. I named it that because I will still brew it as I age to Grandfatherhood and suspect grandkids will see me sitting in a lawn chair sipping that stinky hoppy porter as they ride their horse around the corral.

I was dissappointed at the execution and didn't pay for it, but I haven't really played at all in about three months. My personal problem with loss plagues me now. I pretty much just read uhall,warrior and crafter forums for a couple minutes and do something else.

-Lorax