My 2nd Biggest Worry About UO

[Roland']

My biggest worry about this game has long-been irrationality on EA's part.

My 2nd biggest worry, however, is the time at which we players hit a tipping point, where everything is taken negatively. We've always been a rough bunch, but for the last couple of years it's day by day less of an exaggeration to say that we, collectively, take everything negatively.

Let's go over a few things.

We were given brewing, something which has been asked for for years, and yet the folks who'd long-asked for it were somewhere nowhere to be found. Plenty of detractors though, both who didn't like the implementation of the system and who attacked it being implemented at all when their pet preference wasn't.

We had a scenario where we were given regular fiction, and where we faced an enemy with deep roots in the Ultima canon. Again, things people have long-liked and long-asked for and they were greeted with negativity. Not all of the negativity was focused on the execution; a shocking amount of it (shocking to me anyway) focused on attacking the idea of fiction and the idea of scenarios. Where were the people to defend the idea, even if they criticized the implementation?

Stepping back a little further, we've gotten a flexible title system that we have a great deal of control over. Many years ago, we were told that titles were impossible (I looked up some old UO.com pages on the Internet archive). This change has generated very few complements.

Stepping back yet further, this team has been better than many better-liked teams at keeping the UO patch message up-to-date, until pretty recently This is quite good, as how many UO players don't go to Stratics, or even to UO.com. How many didn't even notice?

And finally....I have no website wherein I "definitively assert" that EA has stopped paying the UO servers. Further, what if I did? Just about anyone can make a website that definitively asserts all kinds of things. The fact that anyone could take this seriously speaks poorly to our collective state of mind: Things that are ridiculous on the face may seem way more credible to us than they should be. I had no idea just how bad things had gotten.

My biggest worry about this game is EA's abject irrationality as an institution, coupled with the fact that they don't understand UO or MMOs generally. And my second biggest worry, that the players will hit a tipping point where we quite literally hate everything, is fast-approaching. Luckily we are not there yet.

-Galen's player

When i was a teenager i worked in a restruant as a dishwasher. The owner once told me people that come in and like his food might tell one or two other people, but the people who didnt like the meal would would tell 5-10.

People are more vocal about what they dislike its human nature.

The reason so many complain here are because weve gotten alot of bad in the game. Even the good seems half assed.

That is why you see a couple positive posts (and there are some) and a whole lot of negative ones.

 

[Woodsman]

If anyone that considers themselves to be a veteran player really believes they have CONSISTENT influence over what the Devs do they are just plain foolish.

It's similar to what Nexus says - those of us who have been around for years and/or keep coming back, we're not the future of UO, and we're not even necessarily the present of UO, we're the past, and we tend to forget that.

The current UO world is still so massive and challenging that anyone(even a 14 year vet like myself)should be more then challenged and excited to play everytime they log on.

I think a lot of us are frustrated because there aren't more players to share this with. It's frustrating because a lot of us know that if BioWare would do the graphics update right and a bunch of new/young players or even older players who quit years ago became interested, there's a good chance of keeping them around, because UO is so different from all the other MMOs.

Had you told me 13 years ago that I would still be around, even after quitting a few times, I'd picture a lot more players and a lot of us older players passing on the proverbial torch to younger players, players who might not have been old enough to participate the release of a UO single player game. Instead, we look around on a lot of shards and see very little activity, and we look at all these flashy cookie cutter games that end up to be so very shallow, and yet we can barely get the younger crowd to even look at UO.

I bet most of us wouldn't be nearly as frustrated as we are if we had several hundred more (or even a thousand) active players on every shard.

 

[red sky]

Your biggest worry must be people in general then. Have you observed the real world?

 

[Woodsman]

6 months since the announced new player 100mb client, 6 months since the the announced new player quests and new player town, 6 months since the announced new EC graphics revamp.

It is like deja vu with the anti-cheating promises and Classic shard astroturfing from last year.

You know what's deja vu? You showing that you have no concept either of how small the dev team probably is, or how development works. If I didn't know better, I'd say that you just use

You have done this in many threads - you act as though the moment that Cal mentioned the new stuff, that it should have all been rolled into the next publish, and you imply that it's some kind of major conspiracy to deny you the graphics update that you, me, and many others want. I won't deny that the classic shard fans like yourself should have been upset at how that was handled, because that was handled poorly and that kind of stuff does contribute to people being jaded.

You are probably more cynical or jaded than anybody else in this thread. I have a feeling that no matter how the graphics and quests and new player experience turns out, you're going to be angry over them. I'm not going to say you should probably just quit because that would be seen as a personal attack, but I think you need to look at how long it took the Kingdom Reborn artwork to be worked on and how many people they had working on KR versus now.

 

[Woodsman]

Your biggest worry must be people in general then.

If I wanted to play an Ultima game without people, I'd click on the Ultima VII icon on the dock on my desktop.

 

[Theo_GL]

Negativity exists for dumb ideas and wastes of time.

Dev team additions that make SENSE do not generate negativity. People enjoy and move on. Salvage bags, Scroll binders, Bod books, xfer tokens, etc.

These things are good additions and needed for the game. We like them but don't come on a message board and say 'Gee devs, just used a salvage bag today and I love it'.

The problem is they hear the negative feedback and do nothing about it. Is brewing really something to 'bring people to uo'? Would people pay for that feature? Its a 1 week long novelty that probably took 3 months to code. Its a waste of time - thus the negativity.

This a forum for squeeky wheels - not praise of things done right.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

My biggest worry about this game has long-been irrationality on EA's part.

Resistence is futile.

We were given brewing, something which has been asked for for years, and yet the folks who'd long-asked for it were somewhere nowhere to be found. Plenty of detractors though, both who didn't like the implementation of the system and who attacked it being implemented at all when their pet preference wasn't.

While brewing was asked for for many years, I think the players wanted a bigger part in determining how it was actually implemented. While the system behind what was added appears decent, the surface is badly marred.

We can't create wines, ales/beer, rum, cider - the staples of UO inhebriation. Instead we get a few decent alcohols, and some odd specialty fluff booze.

Let's not forget the laughable requirement for copper wire to be stolen to make the still. While throwing a bone to thieves is always nice, balancing the longevity of the system on the whim on a single profession is short sighted. (Academic bookcases anyone?)

Then we have the new emotes to go with the new drinks. To paraphrase what someone else said in a thread about the emotes: This is how an adolescent might envision a drunk person acting. This particular addition badly needs a toggle.

We had a scenario where we were given regular fiction, and where we faced an enemy with deep roots in the Ultima canon. Again, things people have long-liked and long-asked for and they were greeted with negativity. Not all of the negativity was focused on the execution; a shocking amount of it (shocking to me anyway) focused on attacking the idea of fiction and the idea of scenarios. Where were the people to defend the idea, even if they criticized the implementation?

UO is an RPG. Attacking that fundamental aspect of the game simply show the person doesn't truly get UO.

Fiction (well written and proofread) will always be needed. In-game meta plot events are needed as well. Not only do they breathe life and activity into Sosaria, but they help usher in map changes and new systems/content (instead of them simply appearing).

UO would be really boring without the story.

Stepping back a little further, we've gotten a flexible title system that we have a great deal of control over. Many years ago, we were told that titles were impossible (I looked up some old UO.com pages on the Internet archive). This change has generated very few complements.

While the title system is cool and all, the customization change needlessly neutered it instead of truly making it better.

We went from three lines of titles:

Name + Guild
Earned Titles (Peerless and Event)
Guild Title and Full Guild Name

to more "choices" of what the lines say, but less one line. Now people have to chose between showing guild affiliation or an earned professional or slayer title.

The Dev Team said they would 'look into' adding the 3rd line back in ages ago. Notice nobody holding their breath.

Stepping back yet further, this team has been better than many better-liked teams at keeping the UO patch message up-to-date, until pretty recently This is quite good, as how many UO players don't go to Stratics, or even to UO.com. How many didn't even notice?

Uhm. Sorry Galen, but this is the worst team in this respect, their track record can only be called pathetic. The patcher message is currently out of date by over a month. They updated it in a timely manner for all of about two publishes a few months ago, that's it. Before that, it wasn't uncommon for the message to go unchanged for 6+ months.

 

[Roland']

i was just reading another forum for another game and found a quote that fits this topic.

Originally Posted by *random head*
This entire community used to defend *game name*. It was like a forum full of Tibernicus's. Now, 95% of *game name* vets on forums are completely negative. Something tells me the blame doesn't lie with the community.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

When i was a teenager i worked in a restruant as a dishwasher. The owner once told me people that come in and like his food might tell one or two other people, but the people who didnt like the meal would would tell 5-10.

People are more vocal about what they dislike its human nature.

The reason so many complain here are because weve gotten alot of bad in the game. Even the good seems half assed.

That is why you see a couple positive posts (and there are some) and a whole lot of negative ones.

In those terms, what worries me is that we're at the point where people have decided the establishment sucks no matter how much it improves itself.

People have a way of finding what they want to find, finding what they expect.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Resistence is futile.

Huh?

I am not sure what you mean beyond the Star Trek reference.

While brewing was asked for for many years, I think the players wanted a bigger part in determining how it was actually implemented.

Yes.

But, again: Where were the people defending the idea? I didn't notice them. I did, however, notice people who said "why did we get brewing when my pet idea hasn't been done yet." Lots of them.

If anyone said "cool, brewing! But, umm.....This system could be a lot better," I missed the post totally.

UO is an RPG. Attacking that fundamental aspect of the game simply show the person doesn't truly get UO.
...
UO would be really boring without the story.

Agreed. But we had at least one person I distinctly remember saying he was leaving because the team had posted fiction. (Again, versus whatever his pet concern was.) Not because the fiction was poorly done or wasn't proofread, but because fiction was being posted at all.

While the title system is cool and all, the customization change needlessly neutered it instead of truly making it better.

And again, very few people defended the idea of the system.

Uhm. Sorry Galen, but this is the worst team in this respect, their track record can only be called pathetic. The patcher message is currently out of date by over a month. They updated it in a timely manner for all of about two publishes a few months ago, that's it. Before that, it wasn't uncommon for the message to go unchanged for 6+ months.

*shakes head*

I believe your memory is flawed here. The 6+ months was a previous team.

That was when I gave up reminding them consistently.

For the last year or so this one's been quite good about it, until about the last month or two.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

The key sentences in your post are the first and the last.

Negativity exists for dumb ideas and wastes of time.

To some, "waste of time" means "what I don't want, does not appeal to me, or do not like."

While I am quite certain that "Galen Online" would be the best and most successful MMO of all time, this is not it, and I do not expect all of this particular game to appeal to me.

Many on Stratics do not agree with this particular mindset, which brings me to your last sentence:

This a forum for squeeky wheels - not praise of things done right.

-Galen's player

 

[Woodsman]

In those terms, what worries me is that we're at the point where people have decided the establishment sucks no matter how much it improves itself.

People have a way of finding what they want to find, finding what they expect.

Yes, plus while there is a surprising amount of work being done on keeping UO viable going into the future, but it would seem at times that people are more concerned about what goodies they are going to get from the spring cleaning thing.

I saw something where 850 items were being studied for use in the spring cleaning thing. I'd be more interested in seeing what's being done to bring in 850 new players, or 8,500 new players.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Your biggest worry must be people in general then. Have you observed the real world?

I could not possibly have been more clear that this post was about my biggest and second biggest worries as relates to UO.

I also could not possibly have been more clear about what my biggest worry as relates to UO was.

-Galen's player

 

[the 4th man]

I have no worries about UO. I have been here since before AoS, and it's a game to pass the time once in awhile.

As far as the griping goes, remember what mamma used to say, if you got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

Easier said than done, I'm just as guilty.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Negativity exists for dumb ideas and wastes of time.

Dev team additions that make SENSE do not generate negativity. People enjoy and move on. Salvage bags, Scroll binders, Bod books, xfer tokens, etc.

These things are good additions and needed for the game. We like them but don't come on a message board and say 'Gee devs, just used a salvage bag today and I love it'.

The problem is they hear the negative feedback and do nothing about it. Is brewing really something to 'bring people to uo'? Would people pay for that feature? Its a 1 week long novelty that probably took 3 months to code. Its a waste of time - thus the negativity.

This a forum for squeeky wheels - not praise of things done right.

I do not think "we" agree on what is a needed addition to the game. That aside, You should not care to call things you do not care about as "bad ideas" Just because you are a part of the smallest population of the player base (that being those who post on Stratics) does not mean you hold a majority vote over who can and should enjoy what and in what fashion.

Lets take your question posted within your example "would people pay for that?" I guess they would, since they have. Also to assume anything, let alone everything, is in response to "getting people to start playing UO" is just a silly thought tossed around far to much among this tiny population of people, let us assume for a moment they add "novelties" for the sake of having Novel things in the game.

Are you, as one poster has already stated, an addict? That is to say, you draw no real enjoyment from the game as it is but need constant attention in the form of new content that you alone like/enjoy?

i was just reading another forum for another game and found a quote that fits this topic.

Originally Posted by *random head*
This entire community used to defend *game name*. It was like a forum full of Tibernicus's. Now, 95% of *game name* vets on forums are completely negative. Something tells me the blame doesn't lie with the community.

People who turn from praise to negativity does not show failure on the part of the outside source. It shows lack of confidence and selfishness with in the community itself.

If a government sets forth a plan that would benefit itself and the future of itself, but is in direct conflict with its current population and thus they turn to dislike it greatly, does that make the idea or plan wrong and a failure? What if I told you now that this country grows to be the largest power in the world for the time that the plan was fulfilled? Suddenly the plan is best because the people of that time are rejoicing in its glory.

Same can be said here, just because we do not know what goes on or what is "ALLOWED" to go on, does not make us the judge or the jury. We as the current population of a Tyrannical government (the Company in which the UO brand belongs to) have no rights to anything that has happened is happening or will happen, and with out this realization we believe everything should be in direct pleasure to us and not in correspondence to what the Dictators say it should be, or their "vision" as it were.

 

[HD2300]

6 months since the announced new player 100mb client, 6 months since the the announced new player quests and new player town, 6 months since the announced new EC graphics revamp.

It is like deja vu with the anti-cheating promises and Classic shard astroturfing from last year.

You know what's deja vu? You showing that you have no concept either of how small the dev team probably is, or how development works...

I know it definitely doesnt take 6 months to do a some terrain tiles. Rationally, at this pace, it will be 2024 and the 2D EC graphics revamp still wont be completed. UO and players would be far better off if more of its budget was put into development instead of creative marketing.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I know it definitely doesnt take 6 months to do a some terrain tiles. Rationally, at this pace, it will be 2024 and the 2D EC graphics revamp still wont be completed. UO and players would be far better off if more of its budget was put into development instead of creative marketing.

Not to argue but an entire question, I keep seeing this comment here "2d EC graphics" and "2D client getting focus"

Did I miss a post where they said they were changing any graphics in the 2D client, or one where they said they were making the EC graphics more "2D like"?

Also remember we only have 1 artist.....all the other people are a "shared resource" with other games. Unless, once again, this has changed with out me noticing it. (I have not had my own computer in months, plus a move to a new house where I did not even use this, being my wife's, computer.)

 

[canary]

I believe your memory is flawed here. The 6+ months was a previous team.

Nope, same team. It is your memory that is flawed.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Resistence is futile.

Huh?

I am not sure what you mean beyond the Star Trek reference.

EA = Borg Collective. They assimilate smaller studios, strangle them with corporate red tape and conflicting ideals, eventually gut them in the name of "cost savings", rinse and repeat.

The only things that could make EA sit up and take notice of reality is SWTOR flopping and the NFL thing decimating future Madden sales.

But, again: Where were the people defending the idea? I didn't notice them. I did, however, notice people who said "why did we get brewing when my pet idea hasn't been done yet." Lots of them.

If anyone said "cool, brewing! But, umm.....This system could be a lot better," I missed the post totally.

While not said in exactly those words, there was this thread. These people wouldn't have been concerned if they weren't at least interested in the distillery.

I am interested in it, however, I'm not going to pay for what should be been free content. Especially since said content remains unfinished.

...But we had at least one person I distinctly remember saying he was leaving because the team had posted fiction. (Again, versus whatever his pet concern was.) Not because the fiction was poorly done or wasn't proofread, but because fiction was being posted at all.

People who want to leave don't need an excuse, it just makes them feel better to leave in a huff. Good riddance then, to be honest.

...And again, very few people defended the idea of the system.

Did the system need to be defended? Were people up in arms about it? (I don't remember)

...*shakes head*

I believe your memory is flawed here. The 6+ months was a previous team.

Nope. Sorry.

This team has remained relatively constant since the purge following SA. Management (i.e. Cal) has remained constant as well. Granted, the "community person" appears to change nearly on a du jour basis, but it is unlikely that they generate the patch message - though changing it should be within their job description.

However, after SA the patcher messages remained unchanged for months at a time. It was only recently that they started updating them when there actually was a patch, and even that was only briefly.

 

[curlybeard]

I've actually been feeling pretty positive about UO lately.

I agree with this

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

EA = Borg Collective. They assimilate smaller studios, strangle them with corporate red tape and conflicting ideals, eventually gut them in the name of "cost savings", rinse and repeat.

The Borg accomplishes its goals, though.

EA doesn't.

Nope. Sorry.

This team has remained relatively constant since the purge following SA. Management (i.e. Cal) has remained constant as well. Granted, the "community person" appears to change nearly on a du jour basis, but it is unlikely that they generate the patch message - though changing it should be within their job description.

However, after SA the patcher messages remained unchanged for months at a time. It was only recently that they started updating them when there actually was a patch, and even that was only briefly.

The longest time I remember was about 6 months or so.

It was pre-SA, was during Warriors of Destiny.

*shrugs*

Oh well.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but if I'm right, my point has been made quite beautifully. When we want negative we see negative.

If it gets bad enough for long enough? Game over by default, and it won't matter if the game suddenly gets perfect.

*shrugs*

-Galen's player

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

When we want negative we see negative.

If it gets bad enough for long enough? Game over by default, and it won't matter if the game suddenly gets perfect.

*shrugs*

-Galen's player

While you are right, I have to say you do put in a bit of... conflicting points.

I.E. we want to see negatively, EA doesn't accomplish anything.

Those two points are opposite of each other, and while yes both are true, it just shows that the negativity is not with our merit. While if the game was perfect tomorrow we would more than likely have people here complaining about something new, the chances of the game having something fixed with out something else breaking is what?

I will wait for anyone to respond with a positive answer to my posed question, because if history is a teacher of anything, then well the answer can not be positive, not only because of the attitude of the people who will answer but because the answer in truth has to be negative.

 

[Bethany_lg]

I can't speak for anyone else, but i think some of my negativity as of late has to do with the trend of boosters and mini packs and the feeling that this is the new trend. I have played and do play other mmorpgs, and the one thing that really sets UO apart from those for me is multiple accounts.

At the moment I have 5 currently active, so when it comes to it just being 10 or 15 dollars for each new pack it becomes 5 times that plus the monthly fee. That's a good chunk of change for all my active chars on different shards to participate. And much as i love this game, if that's the new trend I'm gonna have to reassess how i play or if I want to play.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

The Borg accomplishes its goals, though.

Yet they have failed to conquer Earth how many times?

EA doesn't.

Never said EA was effective.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but if I'm right, my point has been made quite beautifully. When we want negative we see negative.

So we should be positive and upbeat while things remain unfinished, buggy, poorly 'drawn,' and the course UO is on seems tenuous at best? While this last as-yet-unpublished patch seems like a good start, that's all it is...a start.


Now, if the level of fixes/content in this patch is maintained over several (and preferably all) publishes, then we will have cause for wide-spread optimism and praise of the Dev Team.


Simply because someone is critical, doesn't make what they say negative. Negativity is personally subjective. Being blunt and not watering down your point with fluffy PC prose isn't a bad thing.

...and it won't matter if the game suddenly gets perfect.

You're right, it won't; as said perfection would have to be more than a one-off. Since UO consists of 50k (lets pretend) subscribers, perfection on such a scale is virtually unobtainable.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

So we should be positive and upbeat while things remain unfinished, buggy, poorly 'drawn,' and the course UO is on seems tenuous at best?

Whether you are intentionally exaggerating what I said, or whether you seriously think that is a fair representation of what I'm trying to say, it is unworthy of you. If it's not particularly related to what I'm saying then it's quite poorly placed.

-Galen's player

 

[Viper09]

This thread alone shows us an excellent example of negativity and what this community stands for. Why do we see mostly negative posts? Because most everyone in this forum wants only to argue, complain, flaming, etc, which is exactly what this thread is turning into, a big collection of arguments, complaints, flames, etc.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

This thread alone shows us an excellent example of negativity and what this community stands for. Why do we see mostly negative posts? Because most everyone in this forum wants only to argue, complain, flaming, etc, which is exactly what this thread is turning into, a big collection of arguments, complaints, flames, etc.

I suppose, in retrospect, I was probably stupid to think some other result was a statistical possibility.

-Galen's player

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

So we should be positive and upbeat while things remain unfinished, buggy, poorly 'drawn,' and the course UO is on seems tenuous at best? While this last as-yet-unpublished patch seems like a good start, that's all it is...a start.

Buggy is technically a perspective issue, as people think certain things are "flaws" while they are intended, this is not to say the game is not one of the buggiest I have played, it is simply what it was, a statement.

Unfinished? I can only think of maybe 2 things unfinished, but perhaps finishing it would not have a realistic impact and thus would relate in "wasted time" as other people might think of it.

Drawn is once again perspective, and this case I disagree with your attitude, I think effort should be applauded, you want someone to repeat the work of someone else, aside from forgers do you think artists could make a regularly acceptable amount of money simply copying others work? Do you think they could present that in their portfolio and people think "wow you do such beautiful work"? Or do you think it would be taken as a bad thing on their part? Aside from the few people who would praise them for giving recognition to other artists by copying their work (you know the old saying of imitation is the greatest form of flattery type of deal.)

When it comes to the art work you have to accept it as a nicely put forth effort, just because it does not conform with your idea of how it should look does not make it look terrible by all standards (although I will say that their bad idea of downgrading the graphical content in SA was not the best idea, but they did it because "you" complained about how KR looked.)

The art aspect is by no means suppose to group you in anyway, just pointing out the flaws inherent with the argument, not showing them wrong in your definition (unless I addressed your definition in which case, you have been grouped by your own merits).

Now, if the level of fixes/content in this patch is maintained over several (and preferably all) publishes, then we will have cause for wide-spread optimism and praise of the Dev Team.


Simply because someone is critical, doesn't make what they say negative. Negativity is personally subjective. Being blunt and not watering down your point with fluffy PC prose isn't a bad thing.

Agree with most of this, except not everyone is being "critical" they are being "cynical" the two are not mutual. I tell the developers when we need more info, I ask them why they are doing something, I also tell them when I think something is wrong with something, I have never told them what they did was bad simply because what I wanted was not done, or anything along those lines. These are the distinctions between the two.

 

[Viper09]

I suppose, in retrospect, I was probably stupid to think some other result was a statistical possibility.

-Galen's player

Your main point still stands though, and for most of this thread it stands good.

 

[Amren]

A lot will depend on whether or not it's a sandbox game. A game where your locked into a set series of quests limited to hacking mobs will lose it's thrill fairly quickly for many people, no matter how snazzy the graphics are.

A game limited to hack & slash just doesn't have what it takes to last many years as UO has.

You sure about that?

Meridian 59 has been going strong for 15 years and it was just a hack n slash with FFA PvP in the world. Game is still running and is completely free. Meridian 59 - Official Website

Asheron's Call (1999) and Everquest 1 (1999) are also going strong for the past 12 years. They are hack n slash with raiding as well.

And WoW showed the industry what works.

 

[AirmidCecht]

I took a sick leave for the better part of two months. I've had a bit of catching up to do. I like coming back to posts like this. It's a community discussion and of course it's going to reflect the vibe of the overall UO boards.

For the last nine years as a player and a Stratics volunteer the negative does seem to outweigh the positive. I tend to think it's because those who are happy with the game are busy playing it more than posting accolades and those who are unhappy want to voice their concerns. The Stratics community has grown up with UO and talked about it here. We know many here more than our own distant cousins and that has it's good and bad points too. When you are around negative people you get drawn into it and do the 'oh yeah' nod.

I think it becomes a shared thing. The car (UO) needs both the engine (the dev team) and the battery (UO players) to run efficiently. As the mileage builds you sometimes need to overhaul more than patching the rusty spots. But you don't junk a classic and you don't strip it down to it's spare parts either. If you care enough as a player or as a developer you invest more of yourself so you enjoy it fully.

Our devs get to go to work every day on a game. What do you (generalized) do for a living? I want them to enjoy this game as much as I do. I have my expectations and they aren't always met but overall I know when I sit down and log in, my possibilities are endless like no other game. Depending on my mood I can go to fel (and die) or fish and chill out. Most of all I get to interact with players I've known for nine years who live in parts of the world I'll never see.

I'll drink my newly brewed ale with the dumb ol' drunk emotes and I'll wander Magincia looking at the new vendors while wincing at the open spots. I won't whack a mole over it on the forums but I can voice my concerns without the whines and barking. You don't have to be negative to get a point across and you don't have to be all Pollyanna with pom poms either. Unless you are me of course

The pendulum will swing back more towards the balance eventually.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

And WoW showed the industry what works.

Really? WoW is just a glorified clone, nothing more. They showed that strong advertising from a large company generates huge returns. They did not show anything that any other company does not already know.

WoW might have reached higher than any other games in terms of subscribers but not because the model was the best offering, most of them survive due to the survival of the others, people switch from one game to another because the previous are become tedious and boring, and eventually they may round about to one of the previous ones due to it having had new content released in their absence.

Of course nothing I just said is not true of most UO players, but the experience UO offers no other game does currently (well SWG might have but I did not play that one and it is soon to be gone so shouldn't matter to much in this post.) UO has a lasting factor, but there are two issues with it in general. 1) most people who play EQ clones and like them over the sandbox games is because sandbox games do not offer "direction" (the term is what I hear most often used while talking to such people.) this means they will tire of UO the same as they do any other MMORPG.

Second major issue is the fact that the game owners simply do not direct (or allow...depends which party you follow) the Developers in a way to fix the issues that are such a drag on the community (cheating comes to mind? Or various bugs that persisted over the years that caused all kinds of loss and other such devastation to players as to cause them to quit, tell others to quit, tell others to never play the game, so on and so forth.)

Also keep in mind the game you say has lasted as long as UO, technically has not. It was shut down for I think 2 years, and may not last long under the direction of just the 2 original producers. Not saying it wont, just saying that both companies it was under have failed.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I think it becomes a shared thing. The car (UO) needs both the engine (the dev team) and the battery (UO players) to run efficiently. As the mileage builds you sometimes need to overhaul more than patching the rusty spots. But you don't junk a classic and you don't strip it down to it's spare parts either. If you care enough as a player or as a developer you invest more of yourself so you enjoy it fully.

Your entire post was very good, but let's not forget that sometimes the battery needs replacing. This is the case with any game as well, no matter if the game lasts 10 years of 100 years, the battery is in constant need of replacing. The current tone of the stratics posters is that of a battery that needs replacing, not one that needs recharging (as some people like to think).

Now I am not saying we as a group can not change and be revitalized in our obsession (UO) just that if we continue to think that only our own pleasures are to be met then we are on the quick road to ending up in the used battery section of a junk yard. (to keep with the analogy )

 

[AirmidCecht]

Your entire post was very good, but let's not forget that sometimes the battery needs replacing. This is the case with any game as well, no matter if the game lasts 10 years of 100 years, the battery is in constant need of replacing. The current tone of the stratics posters is that of a battery that needs replacing, not one that needs recharging (as some people like to think).

Now I am not saying we as a group can not change and be revitalized in our obsession (UO) just that if we continue to think that only our own pleasures are to be met then we are on the quick road to ending up in the used battery section of a junk yard. (to keep with the analogy )

The same can be said of the engine. *winks* To keep with that analogy then we've seen some dev team members come and go and sometimes come back again. Same with the players as the source of energy. It has been replaced and refurbished as new come in and veterans leave or return. If we ask ourselves, devs and players alike, do we want to be part of the problem or part of the solution I think it could weigh out quite evenly. It's how we communicate and how they address our concerns that give the best quality game and the least negative vibe. In a perfect (UO) world that is

 

[Woodsman]

I know it definitely doesnt take 6 months to do a some terrain tiles. Rationally, at this pace, it will be 2024 and the 2D EC graphics revamp still wont be completed.

It does take four months (it was announced in March) if your artists, and I use the term loosely as it seems like they only have one artist, are busy doing these mini-booster packs and the terrain. Because the mini-boosters generate a few quick bucks, you can guess which probably got priority. I've bitched about it a lot - I'd feel better about everything if we saw actual new hires popping up or if Cal came out and said BioWare/EA was loaning them artists.

A few weeks ago, Cal said we were supposed to see the new terrain in the next publish or two. I take that to mean the end of this month or sometime next month. If we don't see anything then, you should definitely be raging about it.

UO and players would be far better off if more of its budget was put into development instead of creative marketing.

EA is marketing UO? I read a lot of other MMO sites and I have not seen anything UO-related when it comes to marketing since Stygian Abyss. The closest I've seen is a YouTube video posted on Curse.com back in February or March, and that wasn't so much marketing as it was probably just tagged on to some deal EA had with Curse.com for publicizing the main EA titles.

 

[Zosimus]

The only thing I have to complain about or any negativity comments concern a certain abused rabbit. The famous Trix cereal rabbit. The poor bunny doesn't do anything but want the cereal and never gets it but because the kids are so greedy he cant have any. He can only dream about it. Kind of like nixxing out Crackle in rice cripsies and you are left with Snap and PoP. Thats my bloody gripe

Btw each game is unique and comparing games like WoW and UO is really 2 different arguments. They are not the same type of game. I think the issue that one game is more popular then the other. It's like walking into an ice cream store and having to choose between 31 flavors. Some flavors you may like and others you dont. Then you have your favorite flavor. Same goes with MMo's

Any person may like a a variety of different games and what they may offer. Then you have your loyal players that wont touch another game but "ONLY" the game their very loyal to. Play the games you are most comfortable with and please note that MMO's may have some bugs and flaws but "real life" aint perfect either

Now Im off to go figure out those Keebler Elves......

 

[Woodsman]

Really? WoW is just a glorified clone, nothing more. They showed that strong advertising from a large company generates huge returns. They did not show anything that any other company does not already know.

WoW might have reached higher than any other games in terms of subscribers but not because the model was the best offering, most of them survive due to the survival of the others, people switch from one game to another because the previous are become tedious and boring, and eventually they may round about to one of the previous ones due to it having had new content released in their absence.

Actually WoW was the best offering up until recently - it was the most polished and they did an excellent job of bringing players together in order to play together, and bringing new players into the game. Otherwise they would never have hit 5 million, let alone 10 or 12 million. Was it grindy as hell? Yes. Was it a roller coaster in a theme park? Yes, but it was polished and it had a good new player experience that quickly sucked people in.

Steal is a strong word, but if you look at WoW and look at what UO2 was going to be, UO2 was going to beat WoW at a lot of things we consider to be the norm in 3D MMOs these days.

Now that Rift has shown everybody else that somebody can come out with a polished game from the start that pulls in a lot of players after WoW hit the 10 million mark, things might change. Rift did it with a $50 million budget, but it's still doable. It's just a matter of keeping those players from flocking back to WoW.

Of course nothing I just said is not true of most UO players, but the experience UO offers no other game does currently

EVE Online. It is what UO used to be. JC The Builder said it best - swap UO's medieval setting for a space/sci-fi setting and you have EVE Online. SWG never came close to being the sandboxy type game that EVE did, and SWG was eventually ruined anyways. That's why so many PvPers flocked to EVE and that's why EVE continues to grow, even if it does so slowly.

It is a niche - many MMO players do not like the idea of being dry-looted, etc., but it's been a strong niche for them.

All of that together doesn't mean that there still isn't room for UO to grow. If they do it right, and I hope they are, they could grow UO quite a bit - it's not hard to do at this point. A lot of people are getting burned out on other MMOs, it's just a matter of getting them into UO.

It frustrates a lot of us to know UO could have a lot more subscribers if EA would just support it a little more - more developers, more artists, etc., and get the graphics update out the door. We're supposed to get the terrain within the next few publishes, but how long after will it take the mobiles?

 

[Viper09]

The only thing I have to complain about or any negativity comments concern a certain abused rabbit. The famous Trix cereal rabbit. The poor bunny doesn't do anything but want the cereal and never gets it but because the kids are so greedy he cant have any. He can only dream about it. Kind of like nixxing out Crackle in rice cripsies and you are left with Snap and PoP. Thats my bloody gripe

I always felt bad for that rabbit.

I always hoped to see that poor rabbit get his Trix in the commercials, but it never happened

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

EVE Online. It is what UO used to be. JC The Builder said it best - swap UO's medieval setting for a space/sci-fi setting and you have EVE Online. SWG never came close to being the sandboxy type game that EVE did, and SWG was eventually ruined anyways. That's why so many PvPers flocked to EVE and that's why EVE continues to grow, even if it does so slowly.

It is a niche - many MMO players do not like the idea of being dry-looted, etc., but it's been a strong niche for them.

All of that together doesn't mean that there still isn't room for UO to grow. If they do it right, and I hope they are, they could grow UO quite a bit - it's not hard to do at this point. A lot of people are getting burned out on other MMOs, it's just a matter of getting them into UO.

It frustrates a lot of us to know UO could have a lot more subscribers if EA would just support it a little more - more developers, more artists, etc., and get the graphics update out the door. We're supposed to get the terrain within the next few publishes, but how long after will it take the mobiles?

I forgot EVE....my main point was WoW really didn't offer much in terms of revolutionary effort, it was a clone, polished it may have been, but more of the same? yes...

Like I said did not play SWG so I really did not know, I only included it because of my lack of knowledge on it. And I agree UO has great potential, and I have never been a nay-sayer to that fact. I could accept not getting more Developers....but seriously we have 1 artist.....I know we need more developers than we need artists, but still its like a 9 to 1 ratio right now -.- (Then again with the current population I wouldn't want to work on UO if I was an artist....well except I have a love for UO so I would cause I am biased, but you know what I mean.... have a creative work called total crap because it doesn't look like the old (and shouldn't for that matter.))

Just my thoughts on the matter of Love for UO from EA >.> I really do dislike EA, Even their start in the console market was ridiculously acquired, but that's a different thing altogether.

More on topic, and entirely in line with your post, Do you honestly expect to have a revelation when they do in fact start to roll out the new "art"? I mean so far the only acceptable way for them to go is to create exact replica's of the 2d art work in a high resolution with deep colors for people to be "most pleased". I welcome the idea of updated art, and hope it is at least in high def (make my video cards and monitors worth their price tags a slight bit more.) But I do not hold extreme expectations of it, at least not in a sense that it will be bother Better than current and please the players. I expect one or the other.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

The same can be said of the engine. *winks* To keep with that analogy then we've seen some dev team members come and go and sometimes come back again. Same with the players as the source of energy. It has been replaced and refurbished as new come in and veterans leave or return. If we ask ourselves, devs and players alike, do we want to be part of the problem or part of the solution I think it could weigh out quite evenly. It's how we communicate and how they address our concerns that give the best quality game and the least negative vibe. In a perfect (UO) world that is

Well...like I said, your entire post was good, as is this one. But I do not fully agree with the idea that the player base has been replaced or even recharged . I know the Developers have been both replaced and recycled (pheonix being back and all).

There is merit in all of your post, but I completely agree that our communication is part of the key. But I also know that it is not the Developers who are holding back when it comes to UO, it is those in charge of what they do that dictate things to a degree, and even ideas that they do have that are allowed to proceed have to do so in waves and can not be done all at once, this alone is taken wrong by the players and as such we (the players) need to learn how to communicate in a less negative way and a bit more understanding, and hopefulness and patience. Current changes are tc1 are a good example, I feel as if I am the only one with the view point that it is just the beginning of a group of idea's and changes that the Developers wish to do, not saying they will be able to do more after these get published, but I think they had an idea, a plan, a....dream(?) of what they wish the out come to be.

Of course sometimes I wish more of the Developer team would get more interactive with us, sure 3 or 4 of them have posted, but who here can say they have been interactive with us? Only Logrus has shown the patience to put up with us enough to actually respond to posts, not only Development related posts, but even posts in the Professions sections. Every time someone asks a question anywhere I never wonder who's area it falls under as I always fully expect Logrus to answer if there is an answer to be had, which is bad on the Development teams part.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

So we should be positive and upbeat while things remain unfinished, buggy, poorly 'drawn,' and the course UO is on seems tenuous at best?

Whether you are intentionally exaggerating what I said, or whether you seriously think that is a fair representation of what I'm trying to say, it is unworthy of you. If it's not particularly related to what I'm saying then it's quite poorly placed.

-Galen's player

My 2nd biggest worry, however, is the time at which we players hit a tipping point, where everything is taken negatively. We've always been a rough bunch, but for the last couple of years it's day by day less of an exaggeration to say that we, collectively, take everything negatively.

So, I am exaggerating where now? You're statements all relate back to the first post. However, the one I was quoting, in particular, you'd tacked onto the part about the patcher. Which where, to be honest, it didn't belong. (Since "negativity" regarding the lack of proper updates isn't subjective when it is that starkly black and white.)

 

[AirmidCecht]

Every time someone asks a question anywhere I never wonder who's area it falls under as I always fully expect Logrus to answer if there is an answer to be had, which is bad on the Development teams part.

Keep in mind they are down 2 community managers and Kai has 3 titles to keep up with. To his credit, even if he isn't posting much on community boards atm (I would imagine he had a lot of catching up to do) he has been consistent with the uoherald with notes to players. I don't use it to make excuses just state a part the issue.

A few of us had the pleasure of working with him at the last interactive dev chat. Give him more time and I'm sure it will get better as his routine develops. I plan to get back on track with emailing updates from players comments on the forums. I venture outside of Uhall as much as I can and wave orange sticks with links to good constructive discussion on issues. It's with the intention of trying to be part of the solution.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Thanks for putting back the thread on its rails. I stand baffled by this very entertaining interruption !

While if the game was perfect tomorrow we would more than likely have people here complaining about something new, the chances of the game having something fixed with out something else breaking is what?

I will wait for anyone to respond with a positive answer to my posed question, because if history is a teacher of anything, then well the answer can not be positive, not only because of the attitude of the people who will answer but because the answer in truth has to be negative.

I happen to have the experience of a different time, and my luck made it that I was (before Fayled calls me out again) one of the worse hackers in UO history because apparently I'm a prodigal child with an extreemly unlinear brain.

I happen to be the chance, and while its very uncomfortable of a situation, I hold a solution that will make everyone happy ; unfortunately I cannot go about it in the regular ways.

This is the child of the community, noone else might lay a hand on its head.

Edit : I almost forgot to add : it's not a PG-13 option.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Buggy is technically a perspective issue, as people think certain things are "flaws" while they are intended, this is not to say the game is not one of the buggiest I have played, it is simply what it was, a statement.

On a whole, "buggy" means a system isn't working as it was intended. I'm not looking to use the word outside the context that most people are familiar with, or in a wish-fulfulment manner.

In the quote of mine you used:
So we should be positive and upbeat while things remain unfinished, buggy, poorly 'drawn,' and the course UO is on seems tenuous at best? While this last as-yet-unpublished patch seems like a good start, that's all it is...a start.

"Buggy" refers to the systems that still don't fuction as intended 100% of the time. There are lots of bugs in UO, most of which we have learned to play around over the course of 14 years. This doesn't make them acceptable, merely tolerated due to an anemic (some might say incompetant) Dev Team.

So lets not needlessly take things out of context.

Unfinished? I can only think of maybe 2 things unfinished, but perhaps finishing it would not have a realistic impact and thus would relate in "wasted time" as other people might think of it.

Unfinished? Only two things? Really?

Virtues are unfinished. Ilshenar is largely meaningless. Tokuno has no major draw outside of reiterations of ToT. SA was unfinished until the last worldwide publish, nearly 2 years after release. High Seas was released in a beta state, many things in it still don't work right.

The unfinished state of the last booster is a bit more perspective based.

Drawn is once again perspective, and this case I disagree with your attitude, I think effort should be applauded, you want someone to repeat the work of someone else, aside from forgers do you think artists could make a regularly acceptable amount of money simply copying others work? Do you think they could present that in their portfolio and people think "wow you do such beautiful work"? Or do you think it would be taken as a bad thing on their part? Aside from the few people who would praise them for giving recognition to other artists by copying their work (you know the old saying of imitation is the greatest form of flattery type of deal.)

When it comes to the art work you have to accept it as a nicely put forth effort, just because it does not conform with your idea of how it should look does not make it look terrible by all standards (although I will say that their bad idea of downgrading the graphical content in SA was not the best idea, but they did it because "you" complained about how KR looked.)


The art aspect is by no means suppose to group you in anyway, just pointing out the flaws inherent with the argument, not showing them wrong in your definition (unless I addressed your definition in which case, you have been grouped by your own merits).

OK, lost me here, since one mention doesn't really equate to three paragraphs...

However, "you" failed to account for the fact that most of the playerbase was quite vocal over the art in KR. Many thought it was an affront to UO's legacy. While art appreciation is subjective, can so many people be wrong? (And I ask this as someone who liked the KR environment/building art, white detesting the item art.)

People still don't like the EC art, even though it is 90% the CC art scaled up. Some pieces of new art aren't well received either, take the pots released last year - they aren't even in the correct perspective. Eventually, a point is reached when personal perspective subjectivity may become the majority feeling.

Agree with most of this, except not everyone is being "critical" they are being "cynical" the two are not mutual. I tell the developers when we need more info, I ask them why they are doing something, I also tell them when I think something is wrong with something, I have never told them what they did was bad simply because what I wanted was not done, or anything along those lines. These are the distinctions between the two.

Sorry, not going to get dragged into a "I don't like this because my pet desire X wasn't done" debate. While some people may have a few things that they might want done, the notion that a majority of people are selfishly being negative about other aspects of the game is a spurious argument.

It is possible, however, for people to be cynical about UO if they feel the course the game has taken over 14 years has been poorly chosen. (See the Classic shard threads for evidence of this)

 

[Woodsman]

Even if I don't like the graphics update for the EC, if it's done well enough that it starts bringing enough people back or bringing in new players, that we can believe that UO will be around 5 years from now, I'll live with it and I will support it.

At this point, I care more about whether the game will be around 5 years from now. If we look back 5 years, the population is so much lower than it was back in 2006. Because it's EA, there comes a point at which they would just pull the plug and not say "UO has six months or a year to get the population back up." They would just pull the plug. I think UO is in better shape than I initially perceived it when I came back, but we don't have the numbers of 2006 or even 2008 to provide that nice safety cushion.

UO certainly seems to be on EA/BioWare's radar a lot more. That's good.

I think a major problem is that a lot of people who are left are more interested in what pixel crack they are getting than what should be done to bring in new players or returning vets.

 

[Siteswap]

I think a major problem is that a lot of people who are left are more interested in what pixel crack they are getting than what should be done to bring in new players or returning vets.

No. The major problem is that the DEV TEAM is more interested in pixel crack than bringing in new players and fixing the major flaws in the game.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

So, I am exaggerating where now? You're statements all relate back to the first post. However, the one I was quoting, in particular, you'd tacked onto the part about the patcher. Which where, to be honest, it didn't belong. (Since "negativity" regarding the lack of proper updates isn't subjective when it is that starkly black and white.)

You are smart enough to know my point: The patch message has, until recently, been up to date consistently for roughly a year. The most-consistent record in my recent memory.

No one's really cared.

Until it wasn't up to date consistently. Then suddenly everyone cared.

Where you exaggerated was in implying that I was

positive and upbeat while things remain unfinished, buggy, poorly 'drawn,' and the course UO is on seems tenuous at best

And, again, Marty, whether you are misrepresenting me intentionally or mistakenly, it is unworthy of you.

I haven't latched onto the patch message issue; you have. We have an empirical dispute about it. Luckily I have multiple other examples, so even if I am empirically wrong on one, there's still the others.

My personal favorite, no one has commented upon: That we are as a community so far gone that people are actually capable of believing that EA has just stopped paying for UO's servers.

-Galen's player

 

[5% Luck]

The real deal about negativity is that as people, we(all people not just players and devs) tend to get motivated by negativity. We teach each other that if we want something done focus negatively on it and it changes! Think about it. Your kids dont want to clean their room. You say theres cake and hugs if you do it... Or Clean your freaking room you little helion spawn from hades!

Which gets the job done?

It comes back to basic psychology. If we act a certain way when presented with a certain motivation that closes the argument. If you want it to change it watch your own actions and only agree to motivations that are positive. See if you even can.

 

[HD2300]

fyi So Just How Many Players Are There in UO? | UOJournal.com shows that there are currently 32,138 Veteran (non-guilded) Characters.

Players can have up to 7 characters per shard per account. Divide 32,138 by the average number of veteran (non-guilded) characters per account and you have the number of active accounts.

Also from the same article there is a link to EA's CEO saying that the number of active accounts is in the 10s of thousands. We also know ~9000 accounts participated in the Magincia raffle.

 

[icm420]

fyi So Just How Many Players Are There in UO? | UOJournal.com shows that there are currently 32,138 Veteran (non-guilded) Characters.

Players can have up to 7 characters per shard per account. Divide 32,138 by the average number of veteran (non-guilded) characters per account and you have the number of active accounts.

Also from the same article there is a link to EA's CEO saying that the number of active accounts is in the 10s of thousands. We also know ~9000 accounts participated in the Magincia raffle.

Accounts doesn't mean people tho.. I know people with 5-6 accounts.. also does active accounts mean actual people playing? I have watched this one house spot for years waiting for it to fall, I never see the guy never see any activity around the house, never see anything differnt and yet every week/month/year the house remains.