As many people have said in the past. If you removed all the cheaters from UO, it would close due to a lack of subs.
IMO, when the only thing keeping the corpse together is a bunch of stinky maggots that pretty much equals dead.
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IMO, when the only thing keeping the corpse together is a bunch of stinky maggots that pretty much equals dead.
A
Aboo
Guest
That was not an aspect that ALL of us wanted to have to deal with. That aspect of UO was the one aspect that I absolutely hated and one that would have made me quit UO had they not invented Trammel.
I've played UO since Day 1. It wasn't until Trammel that I was able to explore so many areas of UO that before were off limits to me because I hated PvP and consequently was absolutely horrible at it.
There are parts of the early days of UO that I miss, but for the most part I love it more today than when I first started.
The great thing about UO is that there is something for everyone. There's the Freedom to make UO what YOU want it to be and not have it be what someone else wants it to be for YOU.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Exactly. It was the "solution" that killed UO, at least the UO that the author of this article was writing about. Like I said, we still have UO, it is just not the same game it was pre UO:R.
This topic can be debated indefinitely, and there is no way that I will change your mind, and no way you will change mine...but the question at hand was: "Why is he referring to UO in the past tense"...
...and I have answered the question.
Some people like not having PKs to deal with, others do not, but it does not change the fact that the game was originally designed to have open PvP, and then it changed. That statement is completely without opinion or emotion.
Would an open PvP game work in today's gaming environment? Probably not, at least not long term. I am perfectly aware that something needed to change in UO, but given a choice of creating a world almost completely without risk, as we have in UO today, or leaving things as they were...I would probably have opted for the latter, at least until a better solution was arrived at.
But what is past is past. And I think that was sort of the point of the original article. He is stating that he would like to see a new game developed in the footsteps of UO. I'd love to see this personally, and I'd really like the devs of that game to get it right, instead of taking the easy way out.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Which is more realistic?
- A game world where, if I so choose, I can draw a weapon and attack you with it.
or
- A game world where, if I so choose, I can draw a weapon only to find that some unexplained force prevents me from attacking you. No explanations, no reasons given. Just can't do it.
Realistic is certainly the right word...some people just don't like to deal with realism.
Hold on there .....
I suspect there is a solution that both camps can live with.
DD (AKA Designer Dragon) believed that there must be Evil to actuate a community. I always agreed with him. I disagreed with him as to the nature of that Evil. He believed he could control the online anonymous serial killing psychopaths, the hackers, the cheaters etc. I never believed for 1 second they could be controlled and that in the end they would be the down fall of the UO Experiment (note this does not = Death of UO).
What UO/The next great MMORPG needs is a means to control the Evil of the Game such that it is ... for a lack of better words, Role Played by individuals that are self disciplined enough to know when to NOT cross a line.
OR
They must solve a problem that has proven to be unsolvable to date.
The PKR's will vehemently dispute this next statement, NO MMORPG has an effective punishment for Evil.
For the PKR it has been their game style to just go out and best case PK people and entertain them, worst case PK people and ruin their day, week etc. BUT it is always PKing some one. If they should be jailed, killed etc, so what no skin off their back they just do a few hours to days and they are back playing exactly the game they want.
The victim has NO EFFECTIVE RECOURSE. Their game play is ruined, their time is ruined etc. Ok PKR's whine away but you may want to consider as you defend YOUR RIGHT TO A PLAY STYLE YOU ARE ALSO DEFENDING YOUR VICTIMS RIGHT TO REMOVE YOU SO THEY CAN PLAY THEIR PLAY STYLE.
This would all change in a heart beat if UO put on the Murder Window the option that the character and all of its possessions should be DELETED PERMANENTLY.
Now all of a sudden the PKR's are going to need to take the other PLAYER into consideration. They will be required to take full responsibility for their action.
*Shrug* No need to whine about how bad you red's have it, nothing is going to change here. They implemented a PK switch, in my opinion it is not a good solution, but it is a solution.
The force is perfectly explainable: it is the law of the land pressing against your conscience, forcing you accept that if you did attack, the consequences would not be merely a pale robe and a good laugh, but imprisonment for the rest of your life or even permadeath, never to hold a weapon or spellbook in your hands again.
The Tram no-Pking ruleset is a conceit of the imagination, no different than the simplification that getting hit by a fireball doesn't incinerate your backpack.
M
Mavar
Guest
I think the term I used back in the day was...boredom coupled with repitition. Yes, the great free-for-all world that existed in October of 1997 was exciting and everything I hoped it could be coming out of beta, but it fast became a dull grind. I was in the largest anti-pk coalotion (Phoenix) and we made the Yew woods safe for all - when we were patrolling, which was constantly (at first). We had a duty schedule and had developed excellent tactics (we had plenty of practice) and worked as an group of virtual Texas Ranger's. WE WERE EXCELLENT PvPers - individually and in small units!
But, it got old fast - far too much like being in the military or being a cop in a large urban area. The moment we eased-up, the pks took over again. We would get re-inspired and beat them down again only to...rinse-lather-repeat.
There was little time for exploring or developing much more than figiting skills unless you never left the GZ. The bountys helped at first then everyone learned to work the system. Without the Trammel, I would have stopped playing altogether, since I then had a chioce. I kept my main char tuned-up for PvP, parked him in Fel and started to develop my crafters and some PvM templates. I eventually started a char in Seige as well.
Now this is not to say that I disagree with all that Morgana writes, as the risks vs. rewards game-wide are weakly balanced. We have had numerous discussions on these boards about how to fix that (graduated insurance, limited PoF uses, high-end arties dropping as cursed for the first year, etc.) without going back to a pre-AoS ruleset which I think deserve implementation.
A
Aboo
Guest
Not in game you are correct. I play a game to escape realism, not try to duplicate it!
No, it is not realism. In realism you have consequences for your actions. There were no consequences. And there was no way for players to impose consequences on their own. Which is the reason why is was changed, and is, according to Designer Dragon, their greatest flaw in the game/system.
Neither of those options you presented are any more realistic than the other. Because in the first, you have no consequences. In the second, you are prevent from doing the act to begin with.
Penalties:
Stat Loss.
Perma Red.
Guard Wacking.
And when Trammel came, can't got there.
And, yes, they too can be killed an looted. Just because you couldn't doesn't mean no one could.
Could players have enforced their own? Hunting down and rez klling them repeatedly, or roaming the countryside protecting innocents, or called on their guild and friends to come help? Make their lives just as miserable?
Sure could. May not have wanted to, but the option was there. A lot of these gankers thought they were wolves.. But when confronted with another wolf, well.. They didn't like it so much. THAT is why most of these self-proclaimed, so-called "PvP'ers" left UO when Tram was launched - The only thing left in Fel was people actually looking for a fight, and when there was no more easy prey, suddenly ganking wasn't that fun.
The real problem is human nature. For some people, no matter how you punish them in a GAME, unless it gets them locked out from the game, they're going to do it because they want to. And more than that, no matter how much people protest against something, very few will actually DO something about it, in the real world or a game.
I need a "I survived the HORROR of Pre-Tram and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt" T-Shirt. Put a ghost going "ooOoOOOOoOo" on it with a guy standing next to him going "n00b".
[Edit]
And to make it clear, I wasn't a ganker or a good PvP'er (Still not). I got jumped and lost more things than I care to remember. Honestly, it wasn't the hell some people make it out to be.
I'm still here, and I still end up spending most of my time in Felucca.
Boy, you can read between the lines better than anyone! That's EXACTLY..WHAT..I..WAS..SAYING.
How did you guess?
Thank you, Prophet of the Great Designer Dragon! You have voiced it better than I EVER COULD.
/Sarcasm
Incidentally, Raph isn't working for UO anymore, is he? And how is Metaplace doing these days? Didn't care for it what I saw of it.
And by the way, I don't have to be a designer to know what I like, and I don't have to be a designer to remember what I experienced, and how I felt about it, and how the people I played and interacted with felt about it and what happened afterward.
See, my guild used to do all those things. I got in trouble, I told them where, they came and tried to help. They wandered the lands, helped people, killed and made life for reds miserable. We helped each other. It built community, and memories that last a lifetime, and bonds with players which are still alive and well today.
But I guess since a designer didn't tell you that happened, it clearly didn't. Despite your opinion, they be "mere mortals".
A
Aboo
Guest
Just because it was "hell" for you doesn't mean it wasn't for other people.
Did you mean to say, "Just because it wasn't "hell" for you doesn't mean it wasn't for other people"?
Because that's absolutely true.
Just because it wasn't hell for you, doesn't mean it wasn't hell for other people.
And:
Just because it was hell for you, doesn't mean it was hell for other people.
Both are true. No point arguing over this. Some people liked UO Pre-Tram and had no problem with it. Some people didn't.
A
Aboo
Guest
The guild I was with did the same thing. I have many fond memories of our time together and I still keep in touch with several of the members.
However, a lot of my firends quit UO before Trammel came out just because of this type of play that other people forced upon us. Many people were afraid to roam the lands and explore the vast areas of UO.
This argument cuts both ways. Many people preferred UO before Trammel and many people prefer UO now after Trammel. It's a personal choice and one neither side should scold the other for their preference.
Nice ....
BUT what is glossed over to smoothed into non existence is that the ones that DID NOT like Pre Trammel where ... conservatively 9 Didn't Like Pre Trammel to 1 Did Like Pre Trammel.
The majority of those that did NOT like Pre Trammel voted with their Subscription Dollars and went else where, namely Everquest. The Majority of those stayed and wont come back.
It isn't enough to say Yeah People Liked it Yeah People Didn't Like it.
One in 10 people should not be enabled to impose their game play on the other 9 with zero accountability / recourse.
Stat Lost always was a big joke.
Guard Whacked an Even Bigger joke.
Red Punishment in all MMORPG's is a joke when compared to the fact the victim has NO RECOURSE that is equal to or commensurate with the impact the RED had on the Victims Play Style.
This argument does cut both ways. A lot more of my friends left UO AFTER Trammel came out. They got bored. Everything got too easy. The was no need to play our roles (Roleplay) as guardians when there was no one left to guard. We could farm endlessly without any problems, never fear losing anything, except dying to a monster (Before insurance, mind you).
Lots lost their sense of purpose, sense of excitement, sense of accomplishment.
And I'm not scolding one side or another.
My point was, there WAS a penalty for being a PK. People COULD do something about it. Some people DID like Pre-Tram. To say anything else is a flat-out lie.
A
Aboo
Guest
Yes, you are correct. My proof reading is obviously lacking today.
A
Aboo
Guest
Whoa, we need to back up a bit. I was not accusing YOU of scolding, I was making a broad statement that ANYONE scolding ANYONE else for their preference was wrong. If you took it as being personally directed towards you then I apologize because it wasn't. You are just who I choose to answer.
I beg to differ with you on your statement "People COULD do something about it." because not all people could. Sure if you belonged to a guild. Or if you had lots of friends in UO. Or if you were good at PvP. But there's a lot of "if's" there to meet. Some people DID NOT like Pre-Tram. To say anything else is a flat-out lie.
As I said before, the great thing about UO is the choice, the freedom to choose what you want to do. You DON'T have to go to Felucca. You DON'T have to go to Trammel. You DON'T have to do PvP. You DON'T have to do PvM. You DON'T have to craft. You DON'T have to decorate/customize houses. Etc. You can choose what you wish to do in UO.
I don't expect you to agree with me and I don't agree with you. But that doesn't make either of us right or wrong, just different. That's what makes UO what it is - the differences.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
But the scenario you are describing, where actions had consequences, was never even given a chance.
That is why I do not mention that in my question. The ONLY two options that have ever been presented to UO players are:
- A game world where, if I so choose, I can draw a weapon and attack you with it.
or
- A game world where, if I so choose, I can draw a weapon only to find that some unexplained force prevents me from attacking you. No explanations, no reasons given. Just can't do it.
Maplestone wrote:
But this is not the reality of what is in place. The current system in Trammel completely removes that choice. It is simply not even possible, consequences aside, for a person to raise a weapon and attack another person with it, except under specific conditions.
Like it, love it, hate it...doesn't matter, it is not realistic.
Like I said, some people, like myself, prefer a certain degree of realism in games, others do not.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Exactly.
Pre UO:R was completely different. The game had a working social community. Your actions led to the actions of others. If a PK guild started ganking around a specific area, anti-PK guilds would eventually find out about it, and patrol the area...and people that wished not to be involved would avoid the area.
The actions of one had an effect on the actions of others.
Whether that was good or bad depends entirely upon:
1- Did you want to PK people?
2- Did you want to PK people in that area?
3- Did you want to fight the PKs in that area?
4- Did you want to visit that area without fighting PKs?
5- Would you not want to visit that area anyway?
Everyone in the game had some stake in the decisions that were made by players. The PKs wanted 1 and 2, but were denied 2 by the people that wanted 3. The people that wanted 4 were denied that by the people that wanted 2, but were allowed that by the people that wanted 3. The people that wanted 5 really didn't care at all.
In today's UO, what I do, or you do, in the game has very little actual effect on what the other does. If you want to go to Doom, you can go to Doom. If you want to stand around the bank, your can stand around the bank.
There is a certain degree of freedom in that...no one is denying that.
But to pretend that something was not lost when UO:R came out is rationalization. The social interaction, not just talking, or associating with one another, but the actual impact of social interactions were lost with UO:R.
Keep in mind, this isn't a "Hurray for Pre-Ren, current UO sucks" sentiment...it is a "UO is no longer UO, it is something that looks like UO, has the same interface as UO, but is not really UO...at least not UO as it was originally designed" sentiment.
Coke did away with Coke, and replaced it with New Coke...but they didn't call it New Coke, they just called it Coke. Some people liked the New Coke, some people did not. Eventually, Coke decided to bring back the old Coke, and called it Classic Coke. Turns out, the people actually preferred the Classic Coke. So now you just have Coke again, but it is not the New Coke, it is the Classic Coke.
Why did I type all that?
Because I have 10 minutes to kill while this process I am running finishes, and then I can go home...and I had nothing else to do while I wait
J
Jhym
Guest
"legos online" could be considered second life. Note how letting people build and sell what they wanted led to companies and people entering the game to keep their branding, not to actually "play".
"Realism" is a curious word to see getting thrown around so much. Sandbox games are simulating a world, a simulation that simplifies out unimportant things to get at the heart of the experience we want to imagine. For those of us who spend our lives in Tram, dealing with PKers is as exciting as a simulated bathroom break, so it gets simplified out. You can imagine it in there if you want, but it's not important to the game. Just as resurrection is not "realistic" but a person in Fel can also imagine their slain character's child growing up, training themselves to be as good as their fallen parent, setting out to avenge the slaying ... but it's boring to play it all out, so the simulation just lets you get to the point and jump back in the action.
Yeah, I know, I have a chip on my shoulder about Fel at times and I understand if nothing I've said here is going to change your mind. But, in the context of this thread, I believe "sandbox" does not automatically imply "free to PK".
J
Jhym
Guest
I'm very amused that all of these arguments are still raging 11 years after the start of UO.
I do understand some of your arguments Morgana -- but some of your wish for such realism is only possible by imperfect game mechanics.
Think a moment -- the devs add in a "conscience" system. It depends on where your character was born, what their interactions with players and npcs are, perhaps a set of questions and answers (ala the old Gypsy.) Now you've codified limitations on your character into the server, and it won't LET you do some things.
If you recall, initially many things in the world were takeable, through various methods, which is why many towns ended up having absolutely nothing in the shops and houses. How did the devs correct that? They effectively made nothing interesting stealable. I seem to recall a lot of town thieves were ticked about that.
You may also recall that nearly ALL npcs were interactable and killable. I seem to remember several times when nearly every shopkeeper in some towns was poisoned. Or they would wander out of town for no apparent reason. They "corrected" that by making most shopkeeps invulnerable.
Could you say you'd really appreciate and embrace your characters being completely limited in that way? Especially knowing how minor bugs can pop into the code -- I could see the devs implementing such a system, it works fine for a week or two, then suddenly NO ONE can fight orcs because one of the guidelines is not specific enough.
In any case, my biggest issue with the PKing was never the actual act -- but the fact that individuals had no capability to respond in any way. Many forget that we all started with 100 gold and crappy weapons, most not even knowing how to make money at all and with no leap-frogged skills or quests. If you killed me in town as a newbie, I might not have even KNOWN what to say to get the Guards to kill you.
As a consequence, out in the countryside, you had absolutely no way to protect yourself or deal with "real" people who were only interested in killing you for... whatever reason they were using. Bounties did nothing and used more of YOUR resources. Asking someone to protect you? Who? The guy who just killed three people you also don't know?
The reputation system was supposed to help out with that, but it ended up muddying the waters. You could be a murderer, then work the counts off eventually, and suddenly everyone would think you were "just fine" so you could go and murder again.
There is still no simple way to deal with the situation, even today. Effectively, because of how our society works, we EXPECT someone to be there to protect or guide us. Not to coddle, but to help us when we are down. Those protectors have to be known -- not just by reputation, but something in the game should TELL a newbie or a vet who can be trusted and who cannot. We're missing that little piece, more or less a long-term "rating" system that is truly independent of what people THINK your rating is.
Or something like that, I need to head home lol
I do understand some of your arguments Morgana -- but some of your wish for such realism is only possible by imperfect game mechanics.
Think a moment -- the devs add in a "conscience" system. It depends on where your character was born, what their interactions with players and npcs are, perhaps a set of questions and answers (ala the old Gypsy.) Now you've codified limitations on your character into the server, and it won't LET you do some things.
If you recall, initially many things in the world were takeable, through various methods, which is why many towns ended up having absolutely nothing in the shops and houses. How did the devs correct that? They effectively made nothing interesting stealable. I seem to recall a lot of town thieves were ticked about that.
You may also recall that nearly ALL npcs were interactable and killable. I seem to remember several times when nearly every shopkeeper in some towns was poisoned. Or they would wander out of town for no apparent reason. They "corrected" that by making most shopkeeps invulnerable.
Could you say you'd really appreciate and embrace your characters being completely limited in that way? Especially knowing how minor bugs can pop into the code -- I could see the devs implementing such a system, it works fine for a week or two, then suddenly NO ONE can fight orcs because one of the guidelines is not specific enough.
In any case, my biggest issue with the PKing was never the actual act -- but the fact that individuals had no capability to respond in any way. Many forget that we all started with 100 gold and crappy weapons, most not even knowing how to make money at all and with no leap-frogged skills or quests. If you killed me in town as a newbie, I might not have even KNOWN what to say to get the Guards to kill you.
As a consequence, out in the countryside, you had absolutely no way to protect yourself or deal with "real" people who were only interested in killing you for... whatever reason they were using. Bounties did nothing and used more of YOUR resources. Asking someone to protect you? Who? The guy who just killed three people you also don't know?
The reputation system was supposed to help out with that, but it ended up muddying the waters. You could be a murderer, then work the counts off eventually, and suddenly everyone would think you were "just fine" so you could go and murder again.
There is still no simple way to deal with the situation, even today. Effectively, because of how our society works, we EXPECT someone to be there to protect or guide us. Not to coddle, but to help us when we are down. Those protectors have to be known -- not just by reputation, but something in the game should TELL a newbie or a vet who can be trusted and who cannot. We're missing that little piece, more or less a long-term "rating" system that is truly independent of what people THINK your rating is.
Or something like that, I need to head home lol
That's an interesting number. How, prey tell, did you come to it?
And since we're talking numbers here, how many of those 9 that supposedly didn't like Pre-Trammel are still here? Came back after Trammel? Did they say, "Well, the PK situation is fixed. I won't lose anything again. Why not go back because without them, UO was FANTASTIC!" Or did they go on to find games all about itemization, min-maxing, grinding, and community-by-necessity for raid bosses and camping for JBoots?
I'll be interested in hearing what you think that number is, because I can also give anecdotal evidence by saying that other than people who are not playing UO, if you take into account all the people playing freeshards 9 out of every 10 of every post, article, or fond mention of UO is about Pre-Trammel, and how they missed that dangerous world that is no longer even considered palatable by the dull masses that pushed it's development to what is now: A game that's over a decade old that most consider dead, and has very little appeal in today's MMO space IN SPITE of the fact that it is a wholey unique game in a structure (Sandbox) that no one has successfully been able to duplicate.
You know, I can't think of a single game that I've played that I've quit for some period of time, only to come back to try it again. UO, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, Shadowbane, WoW, WAR, Atlantica Online, Runes of Magic.... Tried'em all. Play some of them still.
And you know what? Every time I come back to them, the reason I left them is STILL there.
If your point held any water that PK's were the leading reason people quit UO, wouldn't it be possible that after hearing that the one feature they couldn't stand in a game they like is gone, some small percentage might have tried again?
Maybe they left because UO wasn't the game for them? Maybe the like items and PvE encounters because they're simple and straight forward. Hey! Look at that! Age of Shadows! And now with monsters like the Knight in New Haven, the devs are getting brave about making more interesting PvE encounters.
Having stated all the games I have played to some degree, all I can tell you.. UO is NOT the best PvE experience. Even with classes and theme parks, so many games do PvE simply better than UO.
Actually, that's ALL you can say with any certainty. Making numbers up is pointless. Let me show you.
I bet you'd get at least 10K or more subscribers back if you release a Pre-Tram server!
Sorry, as I explained, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that stopped a player from getting back at whoever wronged them with equal or greater force other than their a lack of imagination, creativity, or social skills. And if they were red, you didn't even get PENALIZED in ANY way for doing what they did to you.
Make friends.
Wait, try again later.
Don't run that way.
Train on dummies until you can run out of town.
Ask for a gate somewhere else.
Take up stealth and sneak the hell out of town.
Follow other well-geared players.
Run as a ghost until you found another spirit healer in another town. (I saw a LOT of UO in grey in my day, until I learned.)
TALK to the PK's. Be surpised how many times I said things simliar to, "Dude, you kicked my ass! I got nothing on me, mind if I run through and you can catch me later when I have something?" and I got by. Or asked them, "Hey, how did you kick my ass like that?!" because if there's anything a PK ganker wants, it's attention and admiration. Hell, they might have even taught you something. One even told me, "Don't go to the bridge north of here, tons of PK's camping it and fighting with each other."
No recourse?
Please. Don't insult the intelligence of players. Victims have 2 options - Adapt, or pancake until someone does something about it. Even today in UO, you see that the player base can't adapt to much. And when they do, they're sure to complain.
Don't want to adapt? That's your right to it. Many people refused to. But don't state there was no option or recourse because many found ways to adapt.
Oh, no worries, I know you weren't accusing me of it. I was just making it clear that I wasn't attempting to scold anyone. No need to apologize.
I'm not being mean or accusing you of anything, but let me asked you, as someone who clearly feels they or others couldn't overcome this obstacle:
Why?
What stopped you from getting into a guild?
What stopped you from making friends?
What stopped you at getting better at PvP?
I'm not a good PvP player. I'm not the most social person. I did get lucky with a good guild, though. They were good people. Even I know that. But honestly, when I hear someone say "Can't", the question I always ask next is "Why?"
And for reference, my previous post listed some things I did to adapt and survive. What stopped players from doing any of those things?
No one is claiming people didn't like pre-Tram, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm certainly not saying right or wrong to any of these opinions.
In previous posts, I'm saying right or wrong to factually incorrect statements, like no recourse, no penalties.
There has ALWAYS been choice. It was the very basis of the social experiment that was UO. Some choices you may not have liked, or some choices you may have not wanted to make or wish you had chosen differently.
I agree, offering Trammel added to that choice, but that's not to say there was an ABSENCE of choices before, just none that appealed to you and others the way Trammel did.
But to create more choices, you have to ask your self: Does having more choices really make you happy? Is it worth what you give up to make that choice possible?
I always take any opportunity to plug TED in any discussion I partake in, so I'll do so now, because it is a wonderful and insightful site. This presentation is about freedom and choice by a guy name Barry Schwartz:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html
I'd advise anyone to watch it, in particular, the part around 12:15 when he talks about jeans, but if you have no interest, here's the synopsis:
" Psychologist Barry Schwartz takes aim at a central tenet of western societies: freedom of choice. In Schwartz's estimation, choice has made us not freer but more paralyzed, not happier but more dissatisfied."
Before you say "More choice is good!", realize there is a balance between Choice, and Too Much Choice. And what good or bad happens as a result of that choice is important.
And on that, we do agree.
That's why I always thought UO should do more, like city wars and player controlled cities (Real ones, like Trinsic) or food and sleep systems, etc. Why? It's things other games don't have, that's relevant to a true persistent WORLD, not a theme park, and it would play to those differences between UO and every other game on the market. Not trying to copy things other games do, and usually, do better because they are not burdened by a 11 Year legacy, in game that is a TRUE persistent world.
Yeah go ahead and make up any numbers you want, you can take the time to find that EA published the numbers I stated ONLY HIGHER.
And to your inability to perceive anything outside yourself? Well that is your problem to deal with. I mean just how day care psycho babble are you going to be?
Oh yeah argue the existence of a supreme being by playing exclusively in my reality of NO supreme being exist and religion is NON existent.
Muwhahahahahahahahaha Just how far down that ... hole you going to jump? Eh Oh the PKR pks some one that doesnt want to play that game and you issue the wisdom of the ages and say "Yes you play my PK game as that is the ONLY alternative I GOD OF EVERYTHING give you"
Now why don't you do as normal pull a total 180 and say you never ever said that and you 100% agree with everything I said and everything everyone else said.
Mean while feel free to peddle your dreams/illusions that the PKing was NOT the reason they jumped ship day one EverQuest went live and all but a statistically insignificant number have NEVER LOOKed BACK. Peddle your dreams and illusions that Trammel was created to facilitate the statistically insignificant number of NON PKRS. Peddle your dreams / illusions why the Felucca Rules Set is empty. Peddle your dreams / Illusions why the ... try to con, scam do what ever it takes to get the Trammel people to come play with them, according to you the Felluca Group is the overwhelming majority
And while your at it, do some homework, get informed You have fun reading and rereading everything you post and think how totally awesome you are
Be safe and Have fun
Can't find any numbers, huh? Here's a hint: EA ITSELF has never released an OFFICAL number. The best you can find is that MMOGChart, and it's not from EA. They had no survey of "How many people liked tram over non-tram", at least one I have never seen. You'd be hard pressed to get an actual subscription number. The best you get is "We make enough to remain profitable."
And since it's the closest thing to an ACTUAL number you will find is estimated subscription numbers, here you go:
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
Prior to May of 2000 when Trammel was let lose, you'll see that, low and behold, people were NOT leaving in droves, but actually, it had a rather steady INCREASE.
I'll grant you, yes, population increases afterwards. But at it's PEAK, at best, 2 more players Post tram to every 1 Pre-Tram.
That's numbers you can actually work with. 2 to 1. For every one person who played the game pre-Tram, 2 people played it post tram. I've shown you mine, now show me yours.
Likewise. You can't seem to get around the fact that other people, even though they didn't LIKE getting ganked, found ways around it, and we're quite happy for it. And people weren't leaving in droves.
You know I've heard that before. Might have been from you. Apparently if you use logic and deduction, or reference psychologists who form factual arguments based on research and study, and actually APPLY it to something, or a point you're trying to make, it's "day care psycho babble".
However, you have yet to disprove one of the things I said to be untrue.
Were there NO penalties? There were penalties. Weather or not you think they were severe enough wasn't the question.
Was there NO recourse? Name one of the things I listed as recourse that COULD NOT BE DONE. AT ALL.
Common. I'm waiting. Prove me wrong. FACTS. Sorry if words with more than 2 syllables seem exotic or akin to "babble" to you.
Analogy fail.
1) You brang up God. I never mentioned one. You've already made the jump. Have a nice fall.
2)If, in your reality, you could prove there was no supreme being, there's nothing to ARGUE is there?
Care to try again? I've stated options people had and penalties that were in place. These are FACTS: There WERE penalties for PKing, and people DID find ways around it.
Why would I do that? You're wrong.
There ARE penalties.
People DID get around gankers and PKS. The existance of UO PROVES this, or was the game completely dead before Tram?
9 to 1 is a BULL**** number you can not PROVE, let alone a GREATER number.
You know when I do a total 180? When someone says "You are wrong. Here is why, and I can prove it." I'm always willing to admit when I am wrong, but only if you can prove it.
You've failed to do so thus far, but please, take your time and show me where you get your numbers, and prove what I'm saying to be wrong. When you do, I'll be happy to say you were right.
I'm not so inadequate that my ego would be bruised if someone proved me wrong, and offered more than conjecture and personal slander.
I'd say they jumped ship because it had better PvE and was in, you know, 3D. Something UO still hasn't done.Mean while feel free to peddle your dreams/illusions that the PKing was NOT the reason they jumped ship day one EverQuest went live and all but a statistically insignificant number have NEVER LOOKed BACK. Peddle your dreams and illusions that Trammel was created to facilitate the statistically insignificant number of NON PKRS. Peddle your dreams / illusions why the Felucca Rules Set is empty. Peddle your dreams / Illusions why the ... try to con, scam do what ever it takes to get the Trammel people to come play with them, according to you the Felluca Group is the overwhelming majority
You have fun reading and rereading everything you post and think how totally awesome you are
Peddle your dreams that people would still be playing an outdated 2D game if only that horrible horrible Pre-Tram era had never happened. Peddle your illusions that absolutely NO ONE liked UO pre-Tram, and the ones that say people did are ignorant. And while your at it, why don't you do some reading. Like the article I linked you at the start of the thread. Or perhaps the MMOG chart that has something akin to REAL numbers.
And then prove your awesomeness in the face of my confusing and innacurate "Psychobabble" with your cold hard facts laced with witty repartee. I'm sure all in Stratics will be inspired and awed by your awsome awesomeness, because you before anyone else has proven I'm saying Pre-Tram players are the majority.
Never mind the fact I NEVER said it, except, you know, when I expressly STATED I was MAKING UP THE NUMBER.
[Edit]
Oh, and know why I read and reread why I type? Let me put your E-peen at ease and TELL you why.
1)To make addendums like this one, which are usually expressly noted.
2)To see if it generates any interesting discussions.
3)It's called Proof-reading.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Resurrection is at least explained, and worked into the game mechanic. The lack of ability to grab a knife and stab a neighbor is not.
Why not just have the person immediately guard whacked, regardless of location, instead of having some unexplained invisible force keeping me from simply raising an arm and attacking someone??
You mention simulation...yet a simulation strives for realism. What UO started as did just that. What it turned into does not.
Imagine if you will, a Ferrari simulator...if you steer the car left, it turns left, if you accelerate, it goes faster...but there is more, when going faster, it is harder to control than at lower speeds. If you hit the brakes, the car would stop, but at higher speeds, on a wet road, you might lose control. A TRUE simulation takes these things into account...it does not simply ignore the fact your actions upon the steering wheel affect the car's movement.
Certainly, crashing a Ferrari would be a terrible thing, but a true Ferrari simulation would not prevent that from being a possible outcome.
Who is talking about Fel?
There WAS NO FEL when UO started. There was just Sosaria.
And to address your point...a TRUE sandbox has to allow for all possibilities, otherwise, it is not a sandbox at all.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
Hang on a second here...
...you are employing so many logic fallacies that I cannot even keep up!
1 - No one is saying that open PvP (PKing) did not lead to a certain degree of exodus from UO.
2 - You have provided absolutely NOTHING in the way of hard, confirmed, numbers to back up the claim you are currently defending.
3 - The success of Everquest, while certainly partially fueled by disgruntled UO players, was not limited to, nor made up completely of previous UO subscribers that quit due to PKing. Some people tried EQ as their first MMORPG, others left UO due to graphics, and yet others just wanted to try something new.
Yes, the introduction of alternative MMORPGs certainly did dilute the UO subscription base, but please...do not presume that every single EQ player was a UO subscriber that was seeking relief from the harsh and awful world that UO was offering at the time because that is simply not true.
I agree with Coldren...if you are going to offer some empirical value as your rationale, then please...by all means...provide us with your source for this data.
C
Connor_Graham
Guest
I can't believe some people are arguing about realism in a game where it's a common site to see people walking around with a freaking 3 story tall dragon in tow and where death is meaningless.
*shrug*
*shrug*
A
Aboo
Guest
I was in a guild, in fact two different ones. One was exceptionally good at PvP. I had more friends that I could make time for. They tried to teach me PvP, I still sucked at it because I HATED it.
There are times when somethings are not possible for everyone. Sometimes there is a "can't" and it doesn't necessarily translate into a won't.
If that's the case what's the problem now? There are two choices. For those that hate PvP there's Trammel. For those that like PvP there's Felucca. Why the squabble regarding Trammel?
For me the answer is not only yes but Heck YES! But I guess I am still confused by what people think they had to give up? There's still Felucca for those that prefer PvP and there's Trammel for those that don't. The only thing I can see that was given up is that there are less innocent people for the pks to attack. What am I missing?
I don't play UO to be in a "TRUE persistent world." I play UO to escape a "TRUE persistent world". I play it to have fun, to relax. There's nothing about UO that is a "TRUE persistent world" and that's just fine with me. It's a game and a darn good one in my opinion!
Morgana you wound me with such sillyness
Yes, lets get the Accounting departments of Everquest, EQ and all involved to publish this information for ... *Cough* apparently you
I mean they would certainly know the REASONS capital flight occurred.
While we are filling for this release of information, we will do one of two things that accomplish the same thing
1) Stick our collective heads up our collective butts and ignore everything around us.
2) Play silly day care psycho babble word games/mind games of misdirection.
You and ....
"you are employing so many logic fallacies that I cannot even keep up"
Who is the you you are refereing to? And when you reply produce your empirical proof that can not be contested. Home work assignment 1
"employing" you assert I am employing people? Objects? Thoughts? History? Precognition? What am I employeing And when you reply produce your empirical proof that can not be contested. Home work assignment 2.
"logic" what logic are you referring to? Is it Boolean logic? is it finite state automaton logic? Is it organic logic? Is it Programmed Logic? is it Random Logic? And when you reply produce your empirical proof that can not be contested. Home work assignment 3.
"I cannot even keep up" Are you saying your physically incapable of maintaining a pace? Are you saying you are mentally incapable of maintaining a pace? Are you saying your so helplessly lost in playing your game you can not keep up? And when you reply produce your empirical proof that can not be contested. Home work assignment 4.
In short Morgana, It is a silly Day Care Psycho Babble Word game to suspend our ability to place things in context for an understanding of the Complete thing and feign/pretend to be totally lost about the how the individual things are to be taken. There was a rather informative study done, in an East Coast College about people's ability to understand sentences, paragraphs etc and their IQ. The higher the IQ the more mangled the communication could be. The lower the IQ the .......
When the UO/EA team members state in public, the ones that should know, then .... well to make it simple go ask them for your word game of Empirical Proof that can not be contested, homework number 5.
Now you have all this home work to do so go get busy, you are dismissed.
I would add the following :
- never played UO but read an old article about UO and didn't even check if it was still alive.
Fixed it for you
I never got good at PvP either. But they were always willing to come help when they could, and bless their hearts, they did try to teach me.
And I never said sometimes "Can't" isn't the answer. I simply stated, my immediate response is to question "Why" someone "Can't".
Some people had bad lag.
Some people, like us, simply weren't good at PvP.
There are lots of valid reason why someone "Can't" do something, and that's why the question "Why" is so important, because sometimes, it does translate into "won't", and people don't realize it until you point it out.
The quibble, from what I recall without re-reading everything, is the fact that there were actually people who like UO Pre-Tram.
Trammel has something to do with PvP, but people who didn't agree with the creation of Trammel disapprove it ONLY because of PvP. Trammel did several things beside make it safe for people who hated the ganking. Rather than rehash what has been stated repeatedly throughout the web, and without going into too much detail:
1) It split the world, quite literally, into two.
2) It took away some people's sense of accomplishment, not just PK's.
3) It was the begging of the end of the need for community. What can you NOT do alone in UO if you're good enough?
That in itself is the subject of many other threads and articles out there. You can agree with them or not, like them or not, but they are out there.
When was the last time you were afraid, I mean REALLY afraid, of dying?
When was the last time you were cautious about what was around the corner?
When was the last time you saw a red run by, be afraid they were going to kill you, only to have them stop and say "Hey."?
When was the last time you had had to trust someone you didn't know, because they could turn around and kill you at any second?
Now, you may look at these things and say, "So?" or, "Just last week.". that's perfectly fine.
But for some of us, it was that intensity, that spontaneity and the unexpected that you just can't find these days. Sure, maybe you can in some limited basis if you go to Fel and turn off your insurance, but it was the uncertainty that made it exciting and interesting. For some of us.
No, Trammel isn't responsible for all the ills of UO. No one would claim that. But to say that some people don't have legitimate reasons to feel like it played it's part in some of these situations, or that some of the things people who enjoyed or didn't even mind UO before Fel, isn't logical.
You may not play TO BE in one, but you are in fact IN one. All MMO's are. And it is a "TRUE persistant world". When you sign off, the world of Sosaria goes on without you.
It's to what degree to which you can impact the world around you that makes UO different, and that's the strength I always felt UO should play MORE to - Not trying to adapt elements from other MMO's that every developer and their uncle has already done and can do better, because it doesn't sit atop a 11 year old legacy of code, players, and communities.
Don't confuse "True Persistant" with "Real" or "Realistic". If the servers were wiped and reset tomorrow, I doubt you'd be happy about it. But then again, who would?
It absolutely is. And I've never said it isn't a good game.
Do I miss some of the things that are now gone? Yes. Do I like all of the things done to the game? Of course not.
But is anyone else any different? Can anyone say, "Yes, I've liked every decision, tweak, and change made to UO throughout it's history."?
Probably not.
People aren't passionate, or argue on forums with people they've never met about things they don't care about or don't like. Well... Maybe SOME do, but most sane people don't.
And just for the record, thank you for the lively discussion. It's been quite interesting so far.
Morgana you wound me with such sillyness
Yes, lets get the Accounting departments of Everquest, EQ and all involved to publish this information for ... *Cough* apparently you
I mean they would certainly know the REASONS capital flight occurred.
While we are filling for this release of information, we will do one of two things that accomplish the same thing
1) Stick our collective heads up our collective butts and ignore everything around us.
2) Play silly day care psycho babble word games/mind games of misdirection.
You and ....
"you are employing so many logic fallacies that I cannot even keep up"
Who is the you you are refereing to? And when you reply produce your empirical proof that can not be contested. Home work assignment 1
"employing" you assert I am employing people? Objects? Thoughts? History? Precognition? What am I employeing And when you reply produce your empirical proof that can not be contested. Home work assignment 2.
"logic" what logic are you referring to? Is it Boolean logic? is it finite state automaton logic? Is it organic logic? Is it Programmed Logic? is it Random Logic? And when you reply produce your empirical proof that can not be contested. Home work assignment 3.
"I cannot even keep up" Are you saying your physically incapable of maintaining a pace? Are you saying you are mentally incapable of maintaining a pace? Are you saying your so helplessly lost in playing your game you can not keep up? And when you reply produce your empirical proof that can not be contested. Home work assignment 4.
In short Morgana, It is a silly Day Care Psycho Babble Word game to suspend our ability to place things in context for an understanding of the Complete thing and feign/pretend to be totally lost about the how the individual things are to be taken. There was a rather informative study done, in an East Coast College about people's ability to understand sentences, paragraphs etc and their IQ. The higher the IQ the more mangled the communication could be. The lower the IQ the .......
When the UO/EA team members state in public, the ones that should know, then .... well to make it simple go ask them for your word game of Empirical Proof that can not be contested, homework number 5.
Now you have all this home work to do so go get busy, you are dismissed.
You can keep going on about intelligence, "Psycho-Babble", and insulting others. You're playing word games, attempting to change context by looking at multiple definitions of terms, when you clearly understand their intent, but you chose to be a smartass. Talk about misdirection.
You have yet to produce one, even remotely solid number to back a single claim. The MMOG Chart might not be accurate, and might not be official, but it's SOME kind of research on the topic that shows actual NUMBERS, and explains how it attempted to reach those number.
Tell me, when did this "Capital flight" you speak of occur? Can you send me a link somewhere to show me when it happened? Or do you just "feel" like it occurred, Mr. Teacher of Logic who feels a need to give us homework assignments?
You've just continued to act condescending to anyone who doesn't agree with you, claiming rather hypocritically that OTHERS are ignoring the world around them. The sane among us at the very least concede that the opinions of others are just as legitimate as our own, but will do what we can to prove actual FACTS. And FACTS that you claimed where what I debated at the start. Instead, you decided to take the whole direction of the discussion from fact, to ad hominem attacks.
You're no teacher. You're no smarter or dumber than anyone else here. Say what you will of how you think that I think of myself as "awesome", but if anyone here has gone out of their way to try to prove their moral and/or intellectual superiority, it's you.
And where is that informative study by an east coast college you speak of? I'd genuinely like to read it - The topic sounds interesting. Or is it another case of verbal diarrhea?
And once again, you send me links that prove any of the facts I have put forthwrong, and I'll be the FIRST to say I was wrong. FACTS. Not opinions and conjecture.
Until then, I'm here.. And I'm waiting.
Lets play your game
You have a long wait, because YOU have not offered any Empirical Proof I am wrong. So go do your Homework assignment number 6 and provide the Empirical Proof that I am wrong until then your dismissed
And please only one version of you needs to play the game
If you protest the .... implication then Homework number 7, Supply the Empirical Proof that it is wrong, such that it can NOT be contested. Your World is easy to play in, one NEVER needs to observe the environment as a complete thing. It is just "Oh, look at that sand pebble", "Oh, look at that rock", etc.
*Just For Fun*
Why is your Lack of Knowledge my problem?
Why is it my responsibility to educate you?
Muwhahahahahahahahahahah, they both have the same answer IT ISN'T
Why would I wast my time with an individual that is playing a simple Day Care Psycho Babble Word/Mind Game? It isn't like they have ANY INTEREST in learning anything as that is NOT THE OBJECT of the game.
All that talk, and you have let to state a simple, straight forward fact.Lets play your game
You have a long wait, because YOU have not offered any Empirical Proof I am wrong. So go do your Homework assignment number 6 and provide the Empirical Proof that I am wrong until then your dismissed
And please only one version of you needs to play the game
Your World is easy to play in, one NEVER needs to observe the environment as a complete thing. It is just "Oh, look at that sand pebble", "Oh, look at that rock", etc.
*Just For Fun*
Why is your Lack of Knowledge my problem?
Why is it my responsibility to educate you?
Muwhahahahahahahahahahah, they both have the same answer IT ISN'T
Why would I wast my time with an individual that is playing a simple Day Care Psycho Babble Word/Mind Game? It isn't like they have ANY INTEREST in learning anything as that is NOT THE OBJECT of the game.
I have at least produced one link in an attempt to prove one point: There wasn't a population decline prior to Trammel. Could people have been coming in at a rate greater than their leaving? Sure. But no one can prove that for certain. Just like you have yet to offer any kind of proof. And that's the point. The 9 to 1 number you came up with and stood by, in fact claiming it to be greater, is 100% unprovable, and completely made up.
I state that, as a fact, some people actually LIKED UO Pre-tram. Anecdotal evidence here, but I liked it Pre-Tram, which makes it true statement. I never said how many.
You stated there were no penalties for PK'ing. I proved that there was, and you conceded, but then switch the topic to, "They weren't REAL penalties".
I stated there were ways to get around PK's. They were not wrong. Maybe not prefered, or palatable, but certainly not untrue.
I have asked for an example of this capital flight in relation to Pre-Tram. None have been provided.
I even asked you for a like to the study you were referring to. I have yet to see it.
For someone who doesn't want to educate, and doesn't think of it as their responsibility, you sure do say "Do your homework" alot without seeming to do any yourself. You're lack of proof doesn't translate to me having a lack of knowledge.
And I remember, it WAS you that claimed that I do "Daycare Psychobable" before. It was a thread where I made a point where you were writing in such a way that I felt I was missing the point, to which, you took great offense. Since I don't speak in metaphors very often, or play the allusion game, so I felt like I didn't undrestand (having the Low IQ that I do) what you were saying, so I asked you to clarify.
You would make a great Politician. It's said a Politician can talk for hours without saying anything.
I see plenty of the world beyond what it contains, but I don't pretend I see it all. I don't pretend to know what someone else knows, and then provide know proof that I know it.
"Supply the Empirical Proof that it is wrong, such that it can NOT be contested.
"It"? What "It"?
You're saying NULL = 9:1? How about 1 = 2? How about you think I or Morgana have a limited view because we liked something the masses, or more particularly you, did not?
And I don't see where you created assignment number 6, Professor. Unless numbers aren't factual enough, and I'm supposed to interpret your meaning. Or did you mean prove that you are wrong?
I have. At least 3 times now, 1 of which may or may not be accurate, but its' a number with a method behind it's value.
Ah the prime motivator, REVENGE for you losing one of your previous games
To take a phrase from Serenity "What a whiner"
Ya know, I was really trying to stay out of this but this statement is very misleading.Coldren said:
Gross subscription were in fact rising pre-Trammel. However, that is a very gross indicator of game acceptance. Developers are much more likely to look at new account retention numbers. That is the percentage of new accounts that pay beyond the initial 30 days.
That said I have seen a Koster quote where he indicated that retention was the primary reason to institute Trammel and that they saw a real uptick in retention after Trammel was introduced. No I can't point you to the quote so I guess that doesn't meet some standard of empirical evidence you guys seem so stuck on.
Yes some people liked that game as it was. Some of those folks are still around yearning for the days of yore or a hope for a retro-shard. But regardless of what anyone thinks, it was the developers judgment that they were bleeding accounts. And that is the only opinion on the matter that really counts.
Enigma never writes a single word that is worth reading.
It's like arguing with a teenager. Logic, reason, common sense go right out the window. It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone like that.
Now if people would just stop quoting his garbage.
A
Aboo
Guest
Coldren,
I can understand what you are saying and I'm not going to go through each one and respond to them individually. But I am going to attempt to broadly state my response to what you've said.
When I want to be afraid or blindly rely on a stranger for help I play on Siege. The community spirit there is quite awesome. The accomplishment I get there when I have acquired enough gold to buy what I want makes me feel like I am on top of the world. I've experienced it all on Siege and, for the most part, you can't find a better group of people to play with.
When I want to relax and simply enjoy my playing, I play LS. I don't have to worry about relying on others to be there to help me. I can craft, PvM, decorate, whatever I choose to do.
I know that there are people, quite a few I am sure, that prefer the pre-Trammel to post-Trammel. But there are quite a few people who prefer post-Trammel to pre-Trammel. For those that prefer pre-Trammel why aren't they playing exclusively on Felucca?
There are many incentives for playing in Felucca - PS and double resources, being just two of them. There are reds to fight and be afraid of. There are monsters for those who like to PvM. So why, if there is something for everyone, is there still this big debate about Trammel vs. Felucca? The thing I see that that got taken away was the non-consensual PvP. So is that what the people are angry about?
I can understand what you are saying and I'm not going to go through each one and respond to them individually. But I am going to attempt to broadly state my response to what you've said.
When I want to be afraid or blindly rely on a stranger for help I play on Siege. The community spirit there is quite awesome. The accomplishment I get there when I have acquired enough gold to buy what I want makes me feel like I am on top of the world. I've experienced it all on Siege and, for the most part, you can't find a better group of people to play with.
When I want to relax and simply enjoy my playing, I play LS. I don't have to worry about relying on others to be there to help me. I can craft, PvM, decorate, whatever I choose to do.
I know that there are people, quite a few I am sure, that prefer the pre-Trammel to post-Trammel. But there are quite a few people who prefer post-Trammel to pre-Trammel. For those that prefer pre-Trammel why aren't they playing exclusively on Felucca?
There are many incentives for playing in Felucca - PS and double resources, being just two of them. There are reds to fight and be afraid of. There are monsters for those who like to PvM. So why, if there is something for everyone, is there still this big debate about Trammel vs. Felucca? The thing I see that that got taken away was the non-consensual PvP. So is that what the people are angry about?
Actually, I had completely forgotten about it. No need for revenge. It's a message forum.Ah the prime motivator, REVENGE for you losing one of your previous games
To take a phrase from Serenity "What a whiner"
And I wasn't aware anything was a game, but if there was one, well, I missed it. Glad you won a game only you were playing.
I acknowledge, and the author of the site acknowledges, that the numbers aren't 100% guaranteed for accuracy. I don't think I ever stated the numbers were certain.
And you are correct, it is quite possible that the new subscriptions were what caused the increase while existing players were leaving. There is no interpretation for this data, so that is 100% possible. The guy is simply reporting the numbers however he came across them.
But they are, in fact, solid numbers. They can be proven and disproven. But a number only holds value if it has someone has done SOME kind of research to reach the number.
He might be wrong, but he has an explanation on HOW he reached that number, not just pulling it out of thin air.
I'm more inclined to believe that without solid fact, rather than a out-of-nowhere 9 out of every 10 statement. I also don't doubt rentention did pick up. The inaccurate MMOGChart even shows an increase after the launch of Trammel. And I think I recall seeing the topic you're referring to. It might still be on his blog.
B
Belmarduk
Guest
Eve-Online is as Sandbox as it can get.
Had a quick look at Darkfall - Seems quite sandboxy aswell - Sadly I havent enough time for more than 1 mmorpg atm - and I have zero intention on dropping Eve
UO COULD still be a great game if EA hadnt neglected it the last 7 years..
I quit UO end of 2009 (just let my castle drop ) but would still like to give UO another go sometime in the future if I have time AND the game really improves..
Greetings Belmarduk
Had a quick look at Darkfall - Seems quite sandboxy aswell - Sadly I havent enough time for more than 1 mmorpg atm - and I have zero intention on dropping Eve
UO COULD still be a great game if EA hadnt neglected it the last 7 years..
I quit UO end of 2009 (just let my castle drop
) but would still like to give UO another go sometime in the future if I have time AND the game really improves..Greetings Belmarduk
Well, actual retention may shock you. Another (now ex) Mythic employee once stated that the industry considers 1 in 5, retention as related to box sales, as good. Bad was 1 in 10 or worse.
So 9 out of 10 might not be that far off the mark. Of coarse since none of us sat in on those meetings, we are unlikely to ever know.
As to MMOGChart, well my person opinion on Sir Bruce (the site's owner) is that I trust him about as far as I can throw him. That said, he did reportedly manage to bamboozle a few industry types into actually paying him for data, so who knows.
Whatever the case Trammel is now a fact of UO life. Time to move on I think.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
I do not recall citing any numbers or making any claim to having any information regarding numbers. It was YOUR post that suggested that you had hard data to back your claim. Do your, or do you not?Morgana you wound me with such sillyness
Yes, lets get the Accounting departments of Everquest, EQ and all involved to publish this information for ... *Cough* apparently you
No, I am saying that you pulling **** out of your *** and that your logic is flawed.
Perhaps it is you that is unable to keep up here.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
We all gave up the social impact that our actions had upon one another. Whether you liked being PKed or not, it was a threat in the game, and there were people that enjoyed providing that threat, and others that enjoyed protecting people from that threat. It was that dynamic that shaped many of the guilds in UO in the early days, and several of the ones that still exist today.
I understand your point, I wish you would at least try to understand mine.
I am not advocating for PKs, in fact, quite the opposite. My guild was formed to help to combat PKs. It wasn't about PvP for us. It wasn't that we got a higher thrill from fighting players rather than AI monsters, it was that we wanted to help players that were being victimized by PKs.
Sure, in creating Trammel, the devs helped everyone that didn't want to be PKed, but they also took away an aspect of the game, whether the word "realistic" is used or not to describe it, that added to the immersion and social feel of the game.
It was a choice that I am sure the devs did not come to easily, and as Enigma stated (even though he threw some made up data to prove his point) the open PvP model was in fact costing OSI subscribers at a higher rate than it was retaining them, otherwise they likely would not have made a change.
I can remember being incredibly frustrated by PKs back in those days, and you are right when you say we play this game to escape real life...but that doesn't mean that there should be zero risk, zero threat.
M
Morgana LeFay (PoV)
Guest
There is a big difference in a single world, like Sosaria was before the split, and Felucca. Fel in modern UO has very few people in it, and the social dynamic of it is roughly akin to that of a biker bar. The place really went down hill when everyone moved to Trammel
First, I don't think "angry" is the right word. More like, remiss. I know that there are others like myself that lament the loss of what UO was, and had the potential to be, before the devs pulled the plug on it. The world was more dangerous, and there was greater risk, but in the end, just like you stated about Siege, the sense of community and accomplishment was higher then.
Siege would be an excellent alternative for players that prefer pre-Ren, if they would would add a couple of character slots. I have played on Siege, but I can't make it my "home" shard because I have characters I would like to play besides my main.
But without derailing the discussion with suggestions on improving Siege, or creation of a classic shard, I'll go back to what the author of the article was saying. The UO he played, and the UO we play now are two very different experiences. He may or may not know that UO is still going, but I would be a little surprised if he doesn't. It is not like we live in an age without google, and I imagine if he felt that strongly about the game at one time or another, that he would at least look it up now and again. But I am guessing of course.