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let's talk about the EC
- Thread starter Anon McDougle
- Start date
- Watchers 8
KR was forced upon the public early (while still in the early stages of Beta) by EA because EA Japan foolishly committed to having boxes on shelves by a wholly unrealistic (read: delusional) date. Thus Mythic was forced into releasing something that wasn't even remotely ready to go gold.
KR was released in a horribly buggy state, then hastily retroverted into the EC when the public saw the poor quality of (specifically) the item art. Many items were completely unrecognizable and/or were unnecessary, radical diversions from their CC counterparts. (I remember not being able to recognize WTF a pitcher of milk was just from the graphic.) And yes, the foliage blended into the terrain a bit too much.
Sadly, the choice to slap the CC graphics into the client was made...and then implemented with only a cursory acknowledgment that upsizing mid-90's era sprites wasn't the best idea. Fortunately, a lot of those issues have been ironed out...for the most part.
Personally, I'd rather they used mixed assets: Use the KR building and plant art, the EC terrain and mobs (after fixing several to better reflect their CC originals) and the CC item art. Then, I want them to make it all HD (yes, I know, the CC item art would have to be redone) At this point, they could stop using sprites as everything is built in 3D anyway, and UO could move into the mid-aughts (you can still remain an isometric perspective while being 3D).
One can dream...
Realistically, I'd like the devs to dedicate one publish cycle a year to the EC and really tackle the major bugs and annoyances. Make the client solid, reduce the unnecessary overhead and make sure everything works.
KR was released in a horribly buggy state, then hastily retroverted into the EC when the public saw the poor quality of (specifically) the item art. Many items were completely unrecognizable and/or were unnecessary, radical diversions from their CC counterparts. (I remember not being able to recognize WTF a pitcher of milk was just from the graphic.) And yes, the foliage blended into the terrain a bit too much.
Sadly, the choice to slap the CC graphics into the client was made...and then implemented with only a cursory acknowledgment that upsizing mid-90's era sprites wasn't the best idea. Fortunately, a lot of those issues have been ironed out...for the most part.
Personally, I'd rather they used mixed assets: Use the KR building and plant art, the EC terrain and mobs (after fixing several to better reflect their CC originals) and the CC item art. Then, I want them to make it all HD (yes, I know, the CC item art would have to be redone) At this point, they could stop using sprites as everything is built in 3D anyway, and UO could move into the mid-aughts (you can still remain an isometric perspective while being 3D).
One can dream...
Realistically, I'd like the devs to dedicate one publish cycle a year to the EC and really tackle the major bugs and annoyances. Make the client solid, reduce the unnecessary overhead and make sure everything works.
I just looked at Black Desert. The trailers on the web site are the actual game graphics? World map seems huge as well! Gonna have to take a closer look.
And if they gave us a choice as to which graphics we wanted to see on our screen and you picked EC then you should have the zoom but if you picked CC then that option should be blocked.Hmmm I wouldn't want the CC graphics if it meant losing the zoom ability, I like the CC graphics but the zoom is handy.
The change that I would like to the CC would be to restore the whole background every screen refresh instead of doing "restore dirty rectangles."
This change would fix the whole " leaves trails all over the screen " thing, and reduce lag for crowded situations.
I bet you could do this in a day, @Bleak.
This change would fix the whole " leaves trails all over the screen " thing, and reduce lag for crowded situations.
I bet you could do this in a day, @Bleak.
since we're speaking about impossible things why don't you also ask for winning lottery ticked and a real castle?
What you're asking cannot be done, because the map doesn't exist by itself and it has to be drawn based on where you are. Increasing the visible area would mean to increase the amount of data you need to get every step you take, which means more lag. If you are thinking about having the whole map completely drawn by default, it would be crazy, beause drawing all that tiles would require an insane amount of memory and time... unless we're back to the client made with lego bricks, in that case it would work
Nevermind there are Third dawn. :vomit
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If you are into PvP they have PvP everywhere... so long as you go over level 49... You have the option to stay at 49. The crafting is every bit as complicated as UO... they have a trade system that is insane. I'm still trying to figure it all out and the map is huge.
There is NO recalling and no gating... so you go everywhere either on foot or they have Horses (with horse breeding which is amazing), camels and Elephants. The mini map is cool but if you are in the desert you get NO MAP. Which is really fun and challenging.
They are always tweaking the skills and stuff my only issues with it are it is sort of weird in that classes have 1 sex. So certain classes are only female while others are strictly male. Which is strange but I'm over that.
You get housing and can have up to 5 homes. It's a system based on popularity... doing quests and such gives you more points to spend on things you need.
Hope you like it let me know. I bought the game on Steam. It's a one and done purchase but then they sell stuff in their in-game store... much of which is just glam... though some is pretty useful. I love the little pets.
Fishing and Horse training can be done AFK and they actually allow you to do it... though with open PvP it's do it at your own risk in some area's. Or be like some myself included and work life skills on a character that stays at level 49.
you got the wrong pictures, those are from third dawn not KR....
and third dawn was good at the time, also it used 3d models which was a step forward instead of 2d sprites like KR and EC whic was a huge step backwards...
Ok Hopefully KR was better. I have tons more how do I tell which are KR?
> impossible things
Pinco, you've misunderstood. I want the 640x480 screen background on the Classic Client to be redrawn. No "whole map" required. The background for the screen is already in memory, since that's where the dirty rectangles are getting restored from.
This is doable. This would fix the "trails" left by gargoyles walking with large shields, and other cruft where the devs have been too d---ed lazy to fix the rectangles and masks.
Classic client, Pinco, classic client.
Pinco, you've misunderstood. I want the 640x480 screen background on the Classic Client to be redrawn. No "whole map" required. The background for the screen is already in memory, since that's where the dirty rectangles are getting restored from.
This is doable. This would fix the "trails" left by gargoyles walking with large shields, and other cruft where the devs have been too d---ed lazy to fix the rectangles and masks.
Classic client, Pinco, classic client.
To me these are better than what EC has now. It's much more defined and not as fuzzy to these old eyes.
Added: Saw Pinco's correction. Still, to me 3D and KR are more easy on my eyes. But that's just me ... I'm sure they suxxors for someone else.
That clip shows it well. Some of the sounds and music are better. The map is horrible! I remember the rune books like that.
Thanks
the tiles don't stay in memory, they get deleted and redrawn... the ptoblem of gargoyles is that they go higher in height (same that happens with the house if you go too high). The only way to fix that would be to increase the visible area over the edge of your 640x480 which will cause lag because it requires to get more data and draw more stuff. Same reason why they are not going to make a bigger game area, it would just be messy and laggy...
Obviously anything can be done if you put enough time in it, but what's the point of stop doing anything else for a month (or even more) just to fix a small issue? In the end with the current menpower they have, they can only afford to do medium-small stuff that involves the interest of as much people as they can...
The biggest problem with the KR Client was that you could have 2 machines with the same specs and only one could run it or you could have a state of the art machine that could not run it but an older machine could and UO could not figure out why some machines could run it while others could not. Some of the old KR graphics were great and it would be nice if UO could allow them to be displayed in the EC along with the CC. Let the user pick which graphics he/she wants to look at with the EC, best of both worlds.
This isn't even a case of letting users decide which resolution and fps they want, you want UO to forever stay in the realm of working harder than any other game when it comes to making new content which begs the question, do you want UO to progress at a better pace and be more appealing to a larger audience (has pinco's great support too!) or be anchored forever because veterans refuse to change?
EC is so much more comfortable on the eye and has so many features packed inside that make the game more comfortable to play it's ridiculous to even compare a Porsche to a Fiat Panda anymore, that clunky FPS in CC doesn't even exist in gaming anymore and hasn't existed in gaming since we were playing with our 16-128mb of RAM back in the day!...
New and even returning players can get a positivee experience with EC w/pinco's, it really does give a refreshing feel to UO and at least fits the standard of options you would expect of modern mmo gaming. The fact that a new or returning player when downloading the game, can choose between either downloading CC or EC....it's stupid, end of.
Seriously those who "Think" they enjoy CC, get a 144hz monitor and play a game that supports it, then go back to CC and try and respect it the fact that client exists today, I dare you!
That guy with the new map tool was showcasing his tool on the CC the other day. Looked like the client was doing 5 fps when walking. Really painful to watch
I really liked the buildings and such in KR. But the landscape was God awful fugly.
I liked how the building walls were thicker, more substantial...not the CC's cheap cardboard-looking walls. Their downside, however, was that most of them looked like they were coated in a layer or more of dirt.
I use both clients, i do wish that i would't have to use both.
Filling vendors, decoing house is a real pain in the butt using EC, alot of the graphics is either very ugly,or very clumsy. I can't get myself to use a hiury on my tamer in EC it really hurts my eyes.
Placing fields as a mage is also a pain in the butt. Target filtering doesn't work properly in EC, sometimes enemies does not show up. Sometimes there are ghost images of players who aren't there (this happens a lot for me in pvp). EC does offer action bars would be nice to have those in the CC.
A solution could be to make an open-source client,its not like their communication protocol nor encryption between server and client is a secret any more.
Filling vendors, decoing house is a real pain in the butt using EC, alot of the graphics is either very ugly,or very clumsy. I can't get myself to use a hiury on my tamer in EC it really hurts my eyes.
Placing fields as a mage is also a pain in the butt. Target filtering doesn't work properly in EC, sometimes enemies does not show up. Sometimes there are ghost images of players who aren't there (this happens a lot for me in pvp). EC does offer action bars would be nice to have those in the CC.
A solution could be to make an open-source client,its not like their communication protocol nor encryption between server and client is a secret any more.
Go play your Fugly graphics. The only thing superior with the EC is the client and it took a player to make it superior not UO so get over yourself. If it wasn't for the people using the CC you wouldn't even be here because the EC sure didn't bring in any players and it sure didn't have the numbers to support it like UO wanted to even consider shutting down the CC.
*sigh* You appear not to know what "dirty rectangles" are, and I suspect you have never seen the "gargoyle walks with large shield leaves trails" on classic client problem.
o The gargoyle is NOT changing height while walking on level ground, and even if the gargoyle were, then equipping a large shield and taking a step should be no different from walking around empty-handed.
o With "dirty rectangles"
This is a really old technique that pre-dates Direct3D. I suspect its presence in the Classic Client was copied from the Ultima VIII source.
Only part of the screen is redrawn with each frame refresh
The parts that are redrawn are the parts that are changed. The "changed" object is "undrawn" then the new state is drawn.
Undrawing takes time.
Keeping track of where to undraw takes time.
At some point it would be better to just redraw the whole screen entire because dealing with a huge number of dirty rectangles would be writing more pixels and/or taking more time than just redrawing the screen entire and paying no attention to dirty rectangles.
What I want to happen is to forget about the "undrawing" step. Just refresh the whole screen, each time. This would SAVE memory because there would be no need to keep track of dirty rectangles and what they should be restored to. This would SAVE time and reduce lag, in plenty of cases, because it removes the "undrawing" step which may be happening multiple times in places where moving objects are overlapping.
o The gargoyle is NOT changing height while walking on level ground, and even if the gargoyle were, then equipping a large shield and taking a step should be no different from walking around empty-handed.
o With "dirty rectangles"
This is a really old technique that pre-dates Direct3D. I suspect its presence in the Classic Client was copied from the Ultima VIII source.
Only part of the screen is redrawn with each frame refresh
The parts that are redrawn are the parts that are changed. The "changed" object is "undrawn" then the new state is drawn.
Undrawing takes time.
Keeping track of where to undraw takes time.
At some point it would be better to just redraw the whole screen entire because dealing with a huge number of dirty rectangles would be writing more pixels and/or taking more time than just redrawing the screen entire and paying no attention to dirty rectangles.
What I want to happen is to forget about the "undrawing" step. Just refresh the whole screen, each time. This would SAVE memory because there would be no need to keep track of dirty rectangles and what they should be restored to. This would SAVE time and reduce lag, in plenty of cases, because it removes the "undrawing" step which may be happening multiple times in places where moving objects are overlapping.
The core difference betwee CC and EC is how they are born... CC was born as "the game" at the time, EC came from a KR failure...
Also KR was born because when EA finished Warhammer Online they wanted to make the most of the engine they bought, so they went to the UO dev team and said: "Hey we have this pile of scraps from the other game, can you make something out of it?". So the dev team took hammer and nails and put together KR, but with their small team they had no chance of making something great, just something "MacGiver" style that sticks together with the dukt tape.
I remember when KR came out, the devs publish a patch every week, it was promising since if they kept that fixing rate that client would really had a chance.... but after a month or so they simply stopped (probably they run out of money?), and after that they simply started to chop off pieces of the client just to make it work (barely I'd say).
So you see? CC was born designed in day 1 by Richard Garriot and his team, trying to create the first MMO in history (so they wanted to have a chance), EC was created by a team who was a big fan of WoW and tried to turn UO into something similar with a bunch of scraps and a shallow knowledge of what this game was....
IMHO the best (and cheapest) solution is not to keep CC and neither EC, but to use the EC engine and start building from there something else that could please everyone... They could even just start by using CC sprites scaled up with an anti-aliasing filter applied (just so that you won't see the pixels)
The Britain Song is awesome! God I wish that was available somewhere...
KR best graphics to date. To this day I'd take KR over anything...crashes and all...
Then they should have ****ing USED the WAR-engine !!!!!!The core difference betwee CC and EC is how they are born... CC was born as "the game" at the time, EC came from a KR failure...
Also KR was born because when EA finished Warhammer Online they wanted to make the most of the engine they bought, so they went to the UO dev team and said: "Hey we have this pile of scraps from the other game, can you make something out of it?". So the dev team took hammer and nails and put together KR, but with their small team they had no chance of making something great, just something "MacGiver" style that sticks together with the dukt tape.
I remember when KR came out, the devs publish a patch every week, it was promising since if they kept that fixing rate that client would really had a chance.... but after a month or so they simply stopped (probably they run out of money?), and after that they simply started to chop off pieces of the client just to make it work (barely I'd say).
So you see? CC was born designed in day 1 by Richard Garriot and his team, trying to create the first MMO in history (so they wanted to have a chance), EC was created by a team who was a big fan of WoW and tried to turn UO into something similar with a bunch of scraps and a shallow knowledge of what this game was....
IMHO the best (and cheapest) solution is not to keep CC and neither EC, but to use the EC engine and start building from there something else that could please everyone... They could even just start by using CC sprites scaled up with an anti-aliasing filter applied (just so that you won't see the pixels)
If that had been implemented at that time UO would have been a serious competitor to WOW...
WAR graphics are getting old for todays standards but WAR was/IS (YES I STILL play WAR regulary.... - **** you EA !!!) the only 3d (1st Person View) MMO I could ever play without getting motion-sickness
UO with WAR-Graphics... that would have been something *sigh*
Or with a Modern and GOOD Isometric-client....
They used the same game-engine that they used in Warhammer ... it's called gamebryo.
I meant they should have made a 3D client then like WAR
Maybe. But then I couldn't imagine the current team dealing with such an client compared to the simple EC and CC. Let alone adding new art.
UO full 3d would never work, besides this kind of games works much better with an isometric view
What they should have done was to use 3d models instead of 2d sprites (like it was on third dawn), that would have REALLY improved the game, since with 3d models characters could have any number of animations without redrawing the whole thing...
WAR now has a very small team of voluntary devs - who have been doing a 100x better job the last 2 years than EA/Mythic did in all the years the official war was running.... This shows that a commited small team can also do great if they really want to (and are able to)UO full 3d would never work, besides this kind of games works much better with an isometric view
What they should have done was to use 3d models instead of 2d sprites (like it was on third dawn), that would have REALLY improved the game, since with 3d models characters could have any number of animations without redrawing the whole thing...
Yes for isometric view I 100% concur with you that they should have used 3D models
no, warhammer online closed back in 2013 because EA lost the rights to use warhammer names and characters... if there is still something around it must be some custom server
Anyway all you can do in a game depends on the resources and how many people you have, 1 guy working 2 clients and a server is not going to do much...
it's "you win or you die", but I can't remember the singer at the moment... If I'll remember I'll let you know
Why should CC players be forced into using the EC because players who use it think CC players should to. Also (no offense to Pinco) why should CC players be forced into using a bandage to cover up all the flaws in the EC. Its great the players love the EC client and love Pinco UI
to you all, but seriously stop trying to push it on players who love the CC client. and don't need a bandage to cover up any flaws in CC.
Yeah we don't need a bandage, we need a trash bag to put it all in, and a new client built from the engine of EC (or a new engine, since now the game engines are quite cheap if you use them for pc games), to start over, but I don't see it happening... I seriously doubt they have the resources to pull it off anywayWhy should CC players be forced into using the EC because players who use it think CC players should to. Also (no offense to Pinco) why should CC players be forced into using a bandage to cover up all the flaws in the EC. Its great the players love the EC client and love Pinco UI
I run vanilla default EC with a couple of Modders amendments just for my personal preference. Works just fine, the EC does NOT need a 'bandage' as Lady Michelle says, although I wonder if the majority of CC users use UOAuto Map and UOAssist as 'bandages' if you wanna use that word.
To each their own. although I have no doubt had the devs just focussed on a new client way back when then we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. Sometimes I wish EA/BS would just bite the bullet and close the game, would make worrying about houses and 'stuff' so much easier. lol
To each their own. although I have no doubt had the devs just focussed on a new client way back when then we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. Sometimes I wish EA/BS would just bite the bullet and close the game, would make worrying about houses and 'stuff' so much easier. lol
EC needs much more than a bandage... you haven't seen how broken it is. More than half of the stuff requires a workaround to avoid bugs and other stuff doesn't work as it's supposed to.
If everything would work as it's supposed to, the client will be 100% times faster than CC, but there is a lot of bugs piled up on horribly designed features (like the one that causes lag during EM events that I explained in the other post).
Probably if they dedicate 1 year of solid work it might get out of the mud a little bit, but I doubt they'll do that, especially because it's easier to pretend that all is fine instead of actually doing something about it... after all it worked for years that strategy, why stop now? As they say... ignorance is bliss
You just stated your preference for CC graphics while completely missing the point/context of why I even bothered to post in this thread in the first place. If you want this game to remain an Egyptian Pyramid you and others alike are doing a great job, It will only take the next wave of upcoming mmo's in mid/late 2019 and perhaps Aria (by that time it may be a deeper and more rewarding experience than on release) to make UO completely absolete.Why should CC players be forced into using the EC because players who use it think CC players should to. Also (no offense to Pinco) why should CC players be forced into using a bandage to cover up all the flaws in the EC. Its great the players love the EC client and love Pinco UI
You do understand we have been hearing this doom and gloom for 20 years and we are still here, have a nice day.
Never mentioned graphics but since you did I like most of the graphics in both clients. They keep the cc client for loyal customers who have been playing this game for ages because they love it. they drop it they lose their profits from those loyal customers.
iv been playing since beta on and off. and i always said no to any client exept CC but the past week or two i decided to try EC and i love every single thing about it apart from how my character and horse looks... i managed to change the papder doll back to something simmilar to CC but my char looks like **** if he looked like he does in CC i would be really happy with that. i think most people would think same
EC graphics are trash.
Yes it is and CC is like something from a C64