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Learning from other games...

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Well Runescape made old school runescape and it has generally 150,000 people online at any given time. It is arguably more popular than the alleged much better RS3. And has nearly the same graphics as the original RuneScape. Course they devoted a small Dev Team to just OSRS that basically fixed old jumbled code and kept the old school play and feel while adding new content based on player polling. RS is only a year younger than UO. SO yeah it is very possible to remake a UO Classic and would probably be a very worthwhile endeavor in anyone but EA and BS hands. Two totally different games and dev teams with two very loyal fan bases for each version of the game. The simple fact is EA and BS just don't want to do something like this, no more and no less to it than that.
 

Dot_Warner

Grand Inquisitor
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Yet the basement kids make it work with whatever age they want.
Free shards don't run EA code. I'm not sure if that can be made any clearer for you.

All the modern free shards run *gasp* modern software written in *gasps again* a modern coding language, not a nearly-exclusively-in-house form of bastardized C. They can literally install a downloaded module, change a few settings and BAM new content/era/rules/blahblahblah.

BS has to code around TWENTY TWO+ YEARS of sh!ttily hacked mods, half-baked systems, and barely stable band-aid bug fixes. Mostly all without adequate documentation. They fix a bug in combat and tinkering suddenly loses half its inventory or the Slasher starts spawning in Luna mint. UO can be wonky.

They also get to juggle the ever-changing priorities whims of a wildly schizophrenic, increasingly nihilistic, get-off-my-lawn! aging playerbase. We ask them to update High Seas...which they do...yet a few very squeaky wheels pancake, moan and whine the entire time - yet never bother to test a damn thing on TC (Yes, they know who bothers to test things and weighs the input accordingly vs the whiners).

I will happily skewer the dev's when its called for, but at the same time, I recognize the limitations inherent to UO.
 
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petemage

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Free shards don't run EA code. I'm not sure if that can be made any clearer for you.

All the modern free shards run *gasp* modern software written in *gasps again* a modern coding language, not a nearly-exclusively-in-house form of bastardized C. They can literally install a downloaded module, change a few settings and BAM new content/era/rules/blahblahblah.

BS has to code around TWENTY TWO+ YEARS of sh!ttily hacked mods, half-baked systems, and barely stable band-aid bug fixes. Mostly all without adequate documentation. They fix a bug in combat and tinkering suddenly loses half its inventory or the Slasher starts spawning in Luna mint. UO can be wonky.

They also get to juggle the ever-changing priorities whims of a wildly schizophrenic, increasingly nihilistic, get-off-my-lawn! aging playerbase. We ask them to update High Seas...which they do...yet a few very squeaky wheels pancake, moan and whine the entire time - yet never bother to test a damn thing on TC (Yes, they know who bothers to test things and weighs the input accordingly vs the whiners).

I will happily skewer the dev's when its called for, but at the same time, I recognize the limitations inherent to UO.
This is a very simplistic view. If there is no time to refactor the worst parts of your software in 20 years, you're a disgrace to the software you "maintain". You would have made the same statement a year before they added bigger screensizes to the CC, wouldn't you? Something that always was impossible because of soooo old code nobody could figure out. Yet when they wanted, there was a way.

Feel free to believe the excuses that it's all spaghetti code though, I don't.
 

Uriah Heep

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Alumni
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Maybe EA needs to quit running EA code too, then.

Not gonna give them a pass on their ****ty coding, no matter what they have to work with. (Thunderbeacons, anyone?)

But I give up, and won't mention it again.

All is well in the world, life is great, we are on top of our game

 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
This is a very simplistic view. If there is no time to refactor the worst parts of your software in 20 years, you're a disgrace to the software you "maintain". You would have made the same statement a year before they added bigger screensizes to the CC, wouldn't you? Something that always was impossible because of soooo old code nobody could figure out. Yet when they wanted, there was a way.

Feel free to believe the excuses that it's all spaghetti code though, I don't.
an article about how this stuff works in the real world.

The Coming Software Apocalypse

not speaking for dot but for myself: i was clear on the points that given unlimited time and money they could do anything they want -- but that's literally true of anything; and i was equally clear and specific on why it would be a bad idea even if they could reasonably manage it.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
huh? oh i get it, you think that when folks point out how wrong you are, they're also saying problems don't exist?
lol is the only response to that.
should've quit at one post.

Maybe EA needs to quit running EA code too, then.

Not gonna give them a pass on their ****ty coding, no matter what they have to work with. (Thunderbeacons, anyone?)

But I give up, and won't mention it again.

All is well in the world, life is great, we are on top of our game
 

Lore

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
First of all to say this is not about pre-Trammel is disingenuous. That's all these posts are ever about.

Here is my many times posted debunking of the "tram sux" posts. The numbers are a little out of date but the idea is the same.

If the premise of this idea, that Fel is more popular than Tram and players would return upon the introduction of a "classic" shard, then the following things would also be true, and they aren't. Here we go. This is tiresome because I have to keep posting it.

Publish 16 never would have happened. Posts from the dev team at the time said that Publish happened because most people had left Felucca for Trammel and there was a need to balance out server loads for a greater degree. If Trammel hadn't been a success, most people never would've left, and Publish 16 never would have happened.

But it did happen.

Trammel never would have been created, because the discontent created by Fel never would have existed and thus there never would have been a need for it.

But it was. (Then see also above.)

Richard Garriott's Memorable Moment from UO would not have consisted of a realization, caused by an incident of one player harming another, that he had to think hard about the rules of the world he'd created.

But it was.
Link: Memorable Moment – Ultima Online

Starr Long would not have indicated that the creation of Trammel was necessary when he spoke at the UO anniversary party.

But he did. (There used to be a paraphrase up someplace of the talk he gave; others will remember it though not all will remember it.)

Siege and Mugen would be the most-populated shards in UO because people would like to play that way.

But they are not.

There never would have been a need to have the Siege housing gimmick as people would have played there without it, because they liked to play that way.

But there was.

The Fel Abyss spawns would be crowded with folks doing them. (The undead one in particular has a lot of cool content and good rewards.)

But they're not.

There wouldn't be posts on Stratics complaining that VvV was dead, because people would jump at the chance to PvP.

But there are those posts.

Games that came out post-UO that had more of a Fel type environment would be prospering, whereas games that came out post-UO that had more of a Tram type environment would be failing.

But that's not the case. Shadowbane is dead. Darkfall has 3,344 likes on facebook;

Darkfall Online

Everquest has 66,431;

EverQuest

UO has 27,757.

Ultima Online

(Facebook likes aren't a perfect indicator of a game's popularity but it's a much better metric than individual posters.)

No likes for Shadowbane because it died.

I found a Facebook page for a free shard! Number or likes: 3,773.

I found a Facebook page for another free shard, specifically dedicated to the Second Age era. Number of likes: 1,680.

Finally, Fel would be so popular on its own that threads like these wouldn't exist.

I could go on and on but that's enough for now. Ultimately the argument of these types of threads is "Trammel failed, because failure is defined by the original poster not liking it."

There was a time when most players would see posts like these and just let them pass by, but I'm glad that time is gone. In not responding to posts like these we run significant risks of letting intense opinion be mistaken for popular opinion.

Now as to the rest of your post you seem largely ignorant of computer things and seem to suggest that the old code is just sitting around waiting to be reactivated.

Have you noticed that we don't have the same physical servers that we used to? If nothing else it's pretty unlikely that the code that exchanges information between the server and the client is the same as it was. (I mean how could it be. From EA servers to Amazon "cloud" servers, much more up to date. How much can really be the same? Have you tried playing with your network/Oracle settings, or altering your tnsnames.ora file, or anything like that lately?)

And that's to say nothing of the fact that the way computer programs are built, even the best ones, resembles a house of cards on a house of cards, and errors can creep in really easy -- especially when you start ignorantly adding code that worked (sort of -- remember all the bugs we used to complain about?) 15 or 20 years ago and assuming it'll still work now. Let's say that a Halberd was, say, item code #5556 in the old system. Let's say I want to resurrect the old random special move system for the halberd and toss out the new AoS special move system. So I bring back the old code for the old system, comment out everything related to halberd in the AoS code (never mind that we're talking about hundreds of lines or more), then paste in the old code, and click run.

Yay I've restored the old system for halberds! Unless of course halberds no longer are item ##5556, but, say, a spellbook is. I've now given the old halberd specials to a spellbook. Well drat, now i Have to change the item numbers too.....Oh and wait, the damage system is different too. Oh you didn't remember that? You didn't remember how they told us about how in the old days player damage to players and player damage to monsters were on different systems? That's why the HP for monsters used to be higher and one of many reasons why AoS screwed up our PvM timing until we got used to it. That was why the zero damage spell bug (you didn't remember that either did you) wouldn't be a concern after AoS because they were scrapping and replacing the damage system.

Of course given unlimited times and resources, they could code in anything but that's sort of dumb to say. No game has unlimited time and resources. How can wow do it? different game, budget, manufacturer, business model, approach to saving old code and old documentations. why are documentations important? Because that's how coders know what to code.

Which brings me to, what's classic anyway? Ultimately it's just a code for "stuff u like better than what we have now." that ain't classic. that's poster's preference.

So, yeah. I miss the old days when Stratics was smart enough to realize that the mere mention of this idea was dumb and not conducive to a positive community on stratics.
LOL Imagine making up stuff to have an argument no one is fighting in an old topic. This is called strawmanning. You're making up something you perceive was said or meant and arguing against it.
 

Blackie

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
WoW is like a book series. The first launch was amazing, the second pretty good, Wrath was probably the best expansion of any game imo... and then it went downhill. They managed to make the game more tedious, more safe, more carebear friendly, raids with one boss and you start at the boss... etc.

They can keep adding sequels to it all they like now, I've enjoyed the series as far as I care to. Kinda like Star Wars the movies, as far as I'm concerned the magic was in the first few and now it's a product to make Disney billions and nothing more. No thanks. WHAT? MAKE ALL MY HARD EARNED GEAR OBSOLETE AND LET ME GRIND SOME MORE FOR REPLACEMENTS? No thanks.

UO can be customized to no end, 700+ pts, spend em how you want. Play as you want. Do as you want.

Dread days were the best. On Atl the red guild SSJ with Gohan as GM and Jarlaxle and friends in the crew was the best time I've ever had in an mmorpg, except for maybe the keep raids in DAoC(best pvp system ever). 3-5 man teams could lay waste to 25-30 man groups of blues near brit, without voice chat. They had a couple of mage players from Denmark who could 2 vs 10 legitimately. SKILL MATTERED. When a red came on screen you got a chill. When you needed a break a switch to your thief and you could disarm-steal weapons to restock your armory(no insurance then). Heck you could sneak the keys from someone and get all their stuff(no lockdowns). The game had risk and the reward was equal to it. Oh, and NO SCRIPTS to automate everything as we have today, those came out later. Need a heal? click the dumb bandage or better yet cross-heal your teammate damnit!

Silver vanq katana? The god weapon worth 20,000 gold. Had to be rich to buy one.
 
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ShriNayne

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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I wish our Devs could learn from other games how to make changes without breaking other things, although at this point I don't think it's even possible, so maybe how to fix things they broke in a timely manner might be good.
How to enforce your own ToS, that would be another good thing to learn.
How to deal with scripters and cheating, other games manage this, UO never has, they cater to cheats every time.
I miss the diversity of templates we used to have, now there are less that are truly viable for a lot of content, or you need a group.
The only thing UO really has going for it nowadays is the community, there are plenty of great people, but I don't think that's enough any more. :(
 

petemage

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I play Ark a lot and believe it or not, transfers between servers are free and possible every like 10 minutes.

There is no single server that acts as a hub
Prices on all servers are alike
There is no "farming dead servers"

On UO you pay $20 per transfer, can only do it every 24 hours and have a single server being a hub outperforming all other servers combined.

Wish they made transfers free and quick for everyone with EJ. You can have your house anywhere, shop anything, run hunts with any people on any server. Chance missed though.

What's also very refreshing about Ark is that there is little entitlement among the players, as there is no such concept of "veterans". You put the work in and you can be at top level soon. Not having to wait 14 years ;)

Oh dear, @Mesanna could learn so much...
 
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petemage

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
they cater to cheats every time.
I just hope the goldsellers will continue to pay the bills when the average players are fed up and there is little gold to sell. But then you see them running the facebook page, the swag store and whatnot.

Guess it's a win-win. The AltanticGoldsellators of UO provide free customer support for Broadsword and in return can directly sell their goods to those players.
 

ShriNayne

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@petemage RIFT is the same, you just pop from one server to another, so if you need to gather something or kill a number of something you just stay where you are and change server, it's very efficient. Unfortunately UO is stuck with the old Classic client, they can never get rid of it now, so everything is stuck in the past.
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
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Black Desert Online is the same as well you can switch to any other server whenever you want I think there is a 5 min timer or something but that's about it... costs nothing... if someone is trolling you on a server you just poof... go to another and they can spend all day looking for you...

If the place you want to hunt is overcrowded on the server you are on just go to another...

If the horses that spawn in your favorite spot have all been tamed just switch to another they are all alike and your stuff and your houses go with you. They are instance based.
 

Uriah Heep

Grand Poobah
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@petemage RIFT is the same, you just pop from one server to another, so if you need to gather something or kill a number of something you just stay where you are and change server, it's very efficient. Unfortunately UO is stuck with the old Classic client, they can never get rid of it now, so everything is stuck in the past.
I think mindset and leadership have more to do with UO's problems than the CC...
All we ever hear is "can't do that, its old code, its outdated client yadda yadda yadda"

Like resizing the CC play window, can';t be done. Until they decided they wanted to do it, then it happened.
Same with multi clienting.
Remember when we wre told potions would never be stackable? because even pots made by the same alchemist had slightly different properties?...well guess what, when they decided they wanted them to stack, it happened.'

It's this over and over and over in UO.

For most ideas, I am truly convinced its not that something cannot be done, it's that the right person or persons hasn't asked for it to be done yet.

So blame the client if you will, but I believe it's mindset, attitude, and the old "we've always done it this way" attitude that holds it all back.
That, plus for the last 10 years there has been no real incentive for the team to strive for perfecion, sind we seem to take every bug, every turd, every little bone that they toss out and live with it-just keep right on paying
 

petemage

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
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It's pretty obvious to anyone who has ever played a modern MMO, that this is the way to go. Sadly this doesn't apply to many UO players or the Broadsword team it seems.

Things like the new vendors are just a joke and won't fix anything. The entitlement is already there in UO. Many vets do not want to see a levelled playing field but keep being special just because they started playing this game 10 years before you or so. So be it. Each to their own. I rather enjoy fair but competitive games and I guess many do so too. So time and money will be spend there. Not rocket science I think.
 

Uriah Heep

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As a vet, I don't have issues with other people having the same.

I think the vet rewards should be split up, and the showy ones and deco put on as turn in rewards...and the good ones, like soulstones, rugs, shields, etc, put in the store to be bought and used by anyone. Let the $20 tokens at origin be useful by allowing you to spend that extra $$ and bypass the 24 hr timer or something...some would still buy it just to be able to have packies move with them.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
LOL Imagine making up stuff to have an argument no one is fighting in an old topic. This is called strawmanning. You're making up something you perceive was said or meant and arguing against it.
Strawman refers to holding up a weak argument as your opponent's argument. That applies to a lot of what's been said about me, Mister "Lore Keeper." But it doesn't apply to my post because it's based on long experience. I didn't make up anything merely responded to how I've seen things go.

Even doing a non-pre-Trammel custom rules shard would beg certain questions. Are you going to reset the bugs too? The lag? In another thread an in-game protest about lag was spoken about glowingly. Are you going to rebuild the old systems from scratch? Which era do you want to pick? Pre-runics? Pre-"new leathers?" Do you want spears to be over-powered relative to halberds? Before or after Publish 16? Do we include Ilshenar? What about the Third Dawn client. When they were shutting it down suddenly a lot of its fans came out of the woodwork. How are you going to lure folks to play an EA_sponsored, paid version of what they can get already for free, with a much-smaller community to worry about, closer access to the designers, enhanced customer service, customized pets, and all the smattering of other things that free shards offer?

Here's were folks like you say something like "they could just comment out what I don't want," in which case I refer you to the other posts in this thread. You're incorrect.

If they're going to rebuild the old game from scratch why not make a new game and try to get things correct from the start? Oh wait, EA tried a new game with Warhammer Online and the result was a disaster so obviously that doesn't work either.

Now imagine the same ingenuity and coding skill applied to recreating an arbitrarily-selected past game that garnered negativity among its player base. Oh wait you don't remember the negativity? FOlks who actually played back then do.

Sure they could hire some programmers and start from scratch and build literally everything they want.
 

Veldrane

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Forget other games entirely, there’s some great ideas on other games that aren’t other games - not sure how much I can say about that.
 

Lore

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Strawman refers to holding up a weak argument as your opponent's argument. That applies to a lot of what's been said about me, Mister "Lore Keeper." But it doesn't apply to my post because it's based on long experience. I didn't make up anything merely responded to how I've seen things go.

Even doing a non-pre-Trammel custom rules shard would beg certain questions. Are you going to reset the bugs too? The lag? In another thread an in-game protest about lag was spoken about glowingly. Are you going to rebuild the old systems from scratch? Which era do you want to pick? Pre-runics? Pre-"new leathers?" Do you want spears to be over-powered relative to halberds? Before or after Publish 16? Do we include Ilshenar? What about the Third Dawn client. When they were shutting it down suddenly a lot of its fans came out of the woodwork. How are you going to lure folks to play an EA_sponsored, paid version of what they can get already for free, with a much-smaller community to worry about, closer access to the designers, enhanced customer service, customized pets, and all the smattering of other things that free shards offer?

Here's were folks like you say something like "they could just comment out what I don't want," in which case I refer you to the other posts in this thread. You're incorrect.

If they're going to rebuild the old game from scratch why not make a new game and try to get things correct from the start? Oh wait, EA tried a new game with Warhammer Online and the result was a disaster so obviously that doesn't work either.

Now imagine the same ingenuity and coding skill applied to recreating an arbitrarily-selected past game that garnered negativity among its player base. Oh wait you don't remember the negativity? FOlks who actually played back then do.

Sure they could hire some programmers and start from scratch and build literally everything they want.
Straw man - Wikipedia
A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

I never wanted pre-Trammel. I would like pre-AOS, personally. Because you joined the thread with a bias, you are assuming. You don't have an open mind for discussion. That makes it difficult to talk to you on a forum.
First of all to say this is not about pre-Trammel is disingenuous. That's all these posts are ever about.
You put words into someone's mouth as if they are making the point you are arguing against. That is a strawman argument fallacy. Your argument against what I said originally is based on a fallacy you invented to argue with.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
lol
calm down, mister 'lore master!'

the definition you cited is roughly the same as mine, with the exception that mine suggesed the straw man had to be an obviously weak argument and the fraudulent element (it not being what your opponent said) I unfortunately only implied.

neither applies to what I said, however, because i merely pointed out that it doesn't apply here because what i did was engage in evidence-based extrapolation. I've seen these posts for years now. and pre-tram is all they're ever about. folks are just better at disguising it these days. in the days when certain folks ruled stratics, it came out sooner & cleaner. That's not a straw-man, it's called having a longer memory than you would like.

u also were far from the only person advancing for the idea of a custom rules shard anyway. at best u could be speaking for yourself, but not for them, to whom i was also responding.

I also showed, though in less detailed form, how even making a non-pre-Trammel custom rules shard is a problematic idea. so even allowing for my being wrong on that part? far from the end of the argument, despite what u need to imply in order 2 actually so much as do well in this discussion. talk about straw-man....lol i guess a straw-man-maker like you knows an awful lot about straw-men, eh?

so, yeah.


Straw man - Wikipedia
A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".





You put words into someone's mouth as if they are making the point you are arguing against. That is a strawman argument fallacy. Your argument against what I said originally is based on a fallacy you invented to argue with.
 

Cymidei

UO Pacific News Reporter
Alumni
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Campaign Supporter
Yep that's why it quickly became the most successful mmo of all time, because of how horrible it was! See you all on August 27th.
Hehe WOW was fun during Classic because it was new and ground breaking at the time. I don't think I can enjoy walking everywhere...till level 40, non-nonsensical quests, no class balance, etc. ever again like I did back then. They have done a lot to improve WOW over the years. No LFG, no flying, crude everything. Have fun looking for Mankirk's Wife and telling Chuck Norris jokes in the Barrens, while you walk and walk, and walk! Classic was hard, dungeon blues were end-game gear! It's a lot of rosey retrospection. I'll just go watch the 50 DPK Minus Wipe, and chuckle about the Classic days, to each their own.
 

Lore

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
lol
calm down, mister 'lore master!'

the definition you cited is roughly the same as mine, with the exception that mine suggesed the straw man had to be an obviously weak argument and the fraudulent element (it not being what your opponent said) I unfortunately only implied.

neither applies to what I said, however, because i merely pointed out that it doesn't apply here because what i did was engage in evidence-based extrapolation. I've seen these posts for years now. and pre-tram is all they're ever about. folks are just better at disguising it these days. in the days when certain folks ruled stratics, it came out sooner & cleaner. That's not a straw-man, it's called having a longer memory than you would like.

u also were far from the only person advancing for the idea of a custom rules shard anyway. at best u could be speaking for yourself, but not for them, to whom i was also responding.

I also showed, though in less detailed form, how even making a non-pre-Trammel custom rules shard is a problematic idea. so even allowing for my being wrong on that part? far from the end of the argument, despite what u need to imply in order 2 actually so much as do well in this discussion. talk about straw-man....lol i guess a straw-man-maker like you knows an awful lot about straw-men, eh?

so, yeah.
See, the problem with people that use argument fallacies is that they argue non-stop even when you point out they are using argument fallacies. Instead of coming up with something worth talking about and thinking through they double down on the fallacy. Because that's the other fallacy they use. The Last Word fallacy. Where if you get the last word, somehow you feel you are right.

I said I wasn't talking about Pre-trammel. You said I was. You then argued why my points were not right because of something you interpreted was said and not what was actually said. You also got likes from people that fall for argument fallacies.

I conclude that all the posts you see about what you're arguing against aren't there and that you see things where there isn't anything. Case in point, this topic.

If you actually have some other point to make I do read what people say and not make knee jerk reaction posts to what I think they are saying.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
lol.

like I said I already explained why even a non-pre-Tram custom rules shard would be problematic. I won't copy and paste it because it's literally right in this thread, on this page.

you're actually using both fallacies you've mentioned, mister "lore master"! last word in that you're trying, quite desperately, to have the last word. it'll work too because sooner or later i'll get bored with the argument and you, quite likely, will not. straw man in that i was clear that i was making a rather reasonable extrapolation based on knowledge and experience (which is not the same as a straw man) and, even worse, that I also replied to your other attempt to make a point. in other words i, albeit in briefer form, already replied to the non-pre-tram custom rules shard.

not everyone who proves you wrong is making logical fallacies. sometimes, you're just wrong. it happens to all of us even those who call ourselves 'lore masters' for some reason.

to be honest I expect that, some day, they'll make a shard that tries to come close to what you say you want and then, when you get it, there'll be many posts about its problems. why do I think this? if you look earlier in this thread you'll see where I showed how the wow folks complained similarly. so it's not just my feeling it's based on actual, empirical evidence.


See, the problem with people that use argument fallacies is that they argue non-stop even when you point out they are using argument fallacies. Instead of coming up with something worth talking about and thinking through they double down on the fallacy. Because that's the other fallacy they use. The Last Word fallacy. Where if you get the last word, somehow you feel you are right.

I said I wasn't talking about Pre-trammel. You said I was. You then argued why my points were not right because of something you interpreted was said and not what was actually said. You also got likes from people that fall for argument fallacies.

I conclude that all the posts you see about what you're arguing against aren't there and that you see things where there isn't anything. Case in point, this topic.

If you actually have some other point to make I do read what people say and not make knee jerk reaction posts to what I think they are saying.
 

Lore

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mister "lore master"! last word in that you're trying, quite desperately, to have the last word.
You replied to a message in this thread dead for a month about something no one said. You've begun attacking me with the only information you have available to do so with... my name. That's an ad hominem argument fallacy. Attack the person not the points.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

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You replied to a message in this thread dead for a month about something no one said. You've begun attacking me with the only information you have available to do so with... my name. That's an ad hominem argument fallacy. Attack the person not the points.
not accurate. any of it, really. I replied to the thread because stuff was left unsaid and i couldn't abide by it. i waited awhile because i do other things & iwas involved with those things. i made a reasonable extrapolation based on a long history with this idea. i also, albeit in shorter form, dealt and dispensed with the argument even without that extrapolation. here's the link since apparently i need 2 post it again.

Learning from other games...

you won't deal with the argument because you know you've lost and, instead, choose to repeat bizarre accusations of my using various intellectual fallacies which, as i have demonstrated, you yourself are using.

like i said. you'll have the last word sooner or later because, as i mentioned above, i do other things. so don't worry, just keep at it, and you'll 'win' sooner or later. and sorry it isn't 'lore master,' like i've been saying, it's 'lore keeper.' and it's not your name, it's your title. sorry i got it wrong. if you don't want to live up to it, don't show it.
 

Lore

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stuff was left unsaid and i couldn't abide by it
AKA you posted in a dead topic to have the last word.

i made a reasonable extrapolation based on a long history with this idea.
AKA You set up a Strawman.

. i also, albeit in shorter form, dealt and dispensed with the argument
AKA you argued with your strawman.

argument because you know you've lost
It's not a win or lose. It's a discussion. You don't argue against these fallacies. If I do anything other than point out that they are fallacies it acknowledges that I think your strawman is true. I don't.

You've strawman argued by "extrapolating."
You've ad hominem argued by trying to make fun of my name. Which is pretty petty.
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

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very little you have written here is, in any way, accurate, and you know it.

i suppose I could use the same tactics you used here against another poster:

Learning from other games...

and name call but i won't follow your example.

i have already explained why, and demonstrated, clearly, how you are using the logical fallacies you accuse me of using, and i've dispensed with your argument on the substance. even allowing for your sincerity on the lack of a pre-tram-custom rules shard, which i feel i have no good reason to concede, i have still made valid points against you. i cannot help you acknowledge it, and i surely can't help that you will, sooner or later, have the last word on it.

on that score, if not on the substance, you're doing great so far.


AKA you posted in a dead topic to have the last word.



AKA You set up a Strawman.



AKA you argued with your strawman.



It's not a win or lose. It's a discussion. You don't argue against these fallacies. If I do anything other than point out that they are fallacies it acknowledges that I think your strawman is true. I don't.

You've strawman argued by "extrapolating."
You've ad hominem argued by trying to make fun of my name. Which is pretty petty.
 

celticus

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This is a very simplistic view. If there is no time to refactor the worst parts of your software in 20 years, you're a disgrace to the software you "maintain". You would have made the same statement a year before they added bigger screensizes to the CC, wouldn't you? Something that always was impossible because of soooo old code nobody could figure out. Yet when they wanted, there was a way.

Feel free to believe the excuses that it's all spaghetti code though, I don't.
Dot and others have stated the facts, and you are the one that somehow misses the picture. Picture this : It is not easy, if not extremely hard, to work on certain parts of the code in UO, and it almost always will take very much longer time and programming work to do some of the changes. Very hard to work on the code as it is (uncommented, bunch of modules mixed here and there, many mods through the years, multiple adds to fix things, on and on on a 20 year old code, written in a language that is no longer well supported, probably a programmer's nightmare to work on). I have seen programmers age 10+ years on projects / databases by industry to control processes, with crappy code and old code.
 

petemage

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Dot and others have stated the facts, and you are the one that somehow misses the picture. Picture this : It is not easy, if not extremely hard, to work on certain parts of the code in UO, and it almost always will take very much longer time and programming work to do some of the changes. Very hard to work on the code as it is (uncommented, bunch of modules mixed here and there, many mods through the years, multiple adds to fix things, on and on on a 20 year old code, written in a language that is no longer well supported, probably a programmer's nightmare to work on). I have seen programmers age 10+ years on projects / databases by industry to control processes, with crappy code and old code.
"Facts" are, none of us has ever seen the codebase. Yet some know exactly how it's the worst codebase on earth for sure. ok :rolleyes:
 

Anonymous UOPlayer

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"Facts" are, none of us has ever seen the codebase. Yet some know exactly how it's the worst codebase on earth for sure. ok :rolleyes:
A few things there.

One, we extrapolate from what the dev team has let out over the years. In particular Draconi went on several "way too honest" rants not too long after his departure from the company. Most of the stuff the people has said, though, is on the old official boards, which are long-since defunct, and on the old Stratics boards which, I think, are also long-since defunct. Draconi also deleted many of his posts at some point.

Two, some of us have knowledge of computer programs in general, how the are developed, compiled, edited, etc. I linked to an article about it in an earlier post. That knowledge totally supports the narrative of UO's code likely being in a pretty bad state.

Three, some of it can be extrapolated from how the systems have changed over the years. A great example, which I have cited elsewhere in this thread, is the combat system. The dev team at the time of the AOS expansion were very, very clear on how much was changing, how it was changing, etc. That'd mean new, or substantially edited, code.

Four the servers are all different than they were (formerly EA-owned now leased from Amazon) and that in all likelihood means different code to interact with the server.

For some reason over the years the argument that "this stuff is easy to do!" has become critical to the custom rules shard crowd. I get it, it's an effective argument. But there's no good reason to think it'd be easy and every reason to think it'd be difficult. Certainly not a case of commenting out what you don't like and un-commenting what you do like.

Of course, as I also have pointed out, there's also very little reason to think this stuff would be good to do even if it were easy to do.

It's a given that they could hire a few coders and have them code in a new game that meets exactly what you would want on a custom rules shard. But there's no good reason to think it'd be easy, and no good reason to think it'd be a good idea. And every reason to think it'd be difficult and expensive, and that it'd be a bad idea either way.

I hope that helps!
 

petemage

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Two, some of us have knowledge of computer programs in general, how the are developed, compiled, edited, etc. I linked to an article about it in an earlier post. That knowledge totally supports the narrative of UO's code likely being in a pretty bad state.
Count me in :) There is not a single week where I don't review other peoples code. I've spent countless hours in other peoples codebases and consulting in software projects. There are tons of projects out there which are not considered state-of-the-art software engineering, still that does not make it impossible to work on them.

Specifically talking UO we all just have no clue and mos tof those extrapolations are so general and based on so old statements, there is little point trying to argue against them without any specifics.

OTOH Broadsword could earn a fortune selling this trick of having paying customers completely buy into someone's ten year old saying "it's a god given sorry".

I mean are we even talking about anything specific at this point or is just high level doom and gloom?
 
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petemage

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Dot and others have stated the facts
I mean ok, let's argue some of those "facts" in detail.

uncommented, bunch of modules mixed here and there, many mods through the years
Not a single official statement about it in years. No one here has ever seen a single source file.

Also might I ask you, are you rather talking about this obscure inhouse script language of theirs, or the bulk of standard software that every other game out there has as well? Like you mean across the board, their infrastructure code, their networking code, graphics, etc. are all in the same shape. No comments and never refactored since 20 years? That what you say? If not, please feel free to clarify.

written in a language that is no longer well supported
The EC, the CC and large parts of the server are written in C/C++, which is well supported toolchain even in 2019.

It's myths like that that give the Devs a free go by just laughing it off saying "spaghetti code", and seems quite some people buy it that easy. It's ok, but don't try to make me join those please.
 

celticus

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I mean ok, let's argue some of those "facts" in detail.



Not a single official statement about it in years. No one here has ever seen a single source file.

Also might I ask you, are you rather talking about this obscure inhouse script language of theirs, or the bulk of standard software that every other game out there has as well? Like you mean across the board, their infrastructure code, their networking code, graphics, etc. are all in the same shape. No comments and never refactored since 20 years? That what you say? If not, please feel free to clarify.



The EC, the CC and large parts of the server are written in C/C++, which is well supported toolchain even in 2019.

It's myths like that that give the Devs a free go by just laughing it off saying "spaghetti code", and seems quite some people buy it that easy. It's ok, but don't try to make me join those please.
Draconi's previous posts about the infrastructure, and the commenting of the code, and other experts who have talked about the code.
 

Pawain

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Draconi's previous posts about the infrastructure, and the commenting of the code, and other experts who have talked about the code.
But you expect people to believe someone who worked with the code, and was able to use that code to make some very fun events on test center and the abyss shard, telling everyone the code was horrible. Hundreds of my statics posts are gone but that does not mean they didn't exist.

They would rather make up their own conspiracy theories about the code, which they admit to never have seen.

We can see how intertwined the code is when they do a T hunting hot fix that makes other unrelated areas of the game change how they behave.
 

celticus

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But you expect people to believe someone who worked with the code, and was able to use that code to make some very fun events on test center and the abyss shard, telling everyone the code was horrible. Hundreds of my statics posts are gone but that does not mean they didn't exist.

They would rather make up their own conspiracy theories about the code, which they admit to never have seen.

We can see how intertwined the code is when they do a T hunting hot fix that makes other unrelated areas of the game change how they behave.
Love the game anyways, regardless of anything, bugs, code and all, PK and all, expansions and all, gimps, cheats, dupes, whatever. Will be here till the lights go off.
:)
 

Lore

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If only there weren't proof out on the internet that people can work with the code and make fun things or servers just like what people are saying you can't possibly do...
 

Spartan

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If only there weren't proof out on the internet that people can work with the code and make fun things or servers just like what people are saying you can't possibly do...
It's been stated before ... the UO code on EA servers is NOT the same as those "out there". As I recall the basic engine isn't the same for one ... then the rest of the stuff is incompatible with each other. Somewhere in here it was detailed as to why - this is all I remember.
 

Lore

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It's been stated before ... the UO code on EA servers is NOT the same as those "out there". As I recall the basic engine isn't the same for one ... then the rest of the stuff is incompatible with each other. Somewhere in here it was detailed as to why - this is all I remember.
Oh wow, what an impossible problem to solve... How'd the ones "out there" manage to do something so impossible?
 

Spartan

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Oh wow, what an impossible problem to solve... How'd the ones "out there" manage to do something so impossible?
Beats me! EA and now BS (and EA) have turned a blind eye to the niceties afforded freely on other shards. There's a boatload of neat things that they could do, but it calls for some investment of time and money to change over. Do you honestly think they will/would ... now?
 

MalagAste

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All the "Free Servers" use a very different code... one that has been built and documented by those who use it... the code used for UO is different entirely and much of it is undocumented and a lot of what was documented was lost... if you have ever watched a bunch of the old DEV videos you'd know they lost a lot of stuff... including a lot of the artwork in some move... they used to talk about it all the time...
 

Lore

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Beats me! EA and now BS (and EA) have turned a blind eye to the niceties afforded freely on other shards. There's a boatload of neat things that they could do, but it calls for some investment of time and money to change over. Do you honestly think they will/would ... now?
This doesn't mean it's not possible. It just means they don't want to. And it's okay to complain about it and point it out and laugh at the apologists that try to make excuses for it.
 

Dot_Warner

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This doesn't mean it's not possible. It just means they don't want to. And it's okay to complain about it and point it out and laugh at the apologists that try to make excuses for it.
There is a big difference between being an apologist and a realist. The realist acknowledges the facts at hand, the limitations of a tiny dev team, and the resource dearth of an indifferently myopic multinational corporation.
 

Lore

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There is a big difference between being an apologist and a realist. The realist acknowledges the facts at hand, the limitations of a tiny dev team, and the resource dearth of an indifferently myopic multinational corporation.
Tiny team... sounds like an excuse. Private servers must have huge teams of people and income from players and cash shops and a big corporation.
 

MalagAste

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Tiny team... sounds like an excuse. Private servers must have huge teams of people and income from players and cash shops and a big corporation.
Again you are comparing apples to oranges... NOT the same code... NOT the same amount of documentation... and you are also talking about people with nothing better to do all day but spend time pouring over the code... they aren't trying to run 28 shards they are running ONE with a fraction of the people playing as the official servers do... and often with cleaner code... since most of that has been updated, documented and reworked over and over and people who run them have an entire community that works on them... openly exchanging things... the REAL servers and the only coder they have doesn't have that luxury... and most of the code he's been working on isn't documented... its a mess... every DEV who's ever touched it has said this MULTIPLE times.

Seriously do you all need to be bashed over the head with it or will it ever sink into your thick skulls? Not that I want to be mean but seriously this discussion is getting old, ugly and tiring...

APPLES
vs ORANGES... Not even remotely similar...
 

Dot_Warner

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Tiny team... sounds like an excuse. Private servers must have huge teams of people and income from players and cash shops and a big corporation.
Yes, most freeshards have cash shops with ridiculous items...but they don't have a money-hungry corporation taking a disproportionate cut. They have significantly less overhead to worry about (beefy PC and internet connection). Team size is also less important as the base code has been floating about the internet for over a decade (along with various modules/rulesets/art assets/etc).

Since freeshards are a hobby for these people, any income is pure, unadulterated gravy.

However, since you won't acknowledge any of these differences, the point is moot.
 

petemage

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All the "Free Servers" use a very different code... one that has been built and documented by those who use it... the code used for UO is different entirely and much of it is undocumented and a lot of what was documented was lost... if you have ever watched a bunch of the old DEV videos you'd know they lost a lot of stuff... including a lot of the artwork in some move... they used to talk about it all the time...
Written by super human aliens in their spare time. No way two paid developers could compete in any way :D
 
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petemage

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But you expect people to believe someone who worked with the code, and was able to use that code to make some very fun events on test center and the abyss shard, telling everyone the code was horrible. Hundreds of my statics posts are gone but that does not mean they didn't exist.
Did you ever work with developers? Go ask 100 developers about that code someone else wrote. And even if it is true and UO was worse than many other horrible projects back when those statements were made, what did Broadsword do to improve in those last 10 years?

We can see how intertwined the code is when they do a T hunting hot fix that makes other unrelated areas of the game change how they behave.
This is more a matter of (non-existent) QA. But given how they run this whole game reactive and never proactive, I doubt there is any automated testing even after 20 years. Many features they push seem rushed without any testing at all (anyone ever closed the cabinet doors? recalled out of the runic atlas? ...). Quality would be way better if they allocated more time to testing the stuff, and that has very little to do with the codebase they carry already but with priorities.
 
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petemage

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This doesn't mean it's not possible. It just means they don't want to. And it's okay to complain about it and point it out and laugh at the apologists that try to make excuses for it.
Exactly. Software development is rarely about the impossible, but about priorities. I can understand how it's easier for a developer to shrug ideas off saying "the code is too bad" rather than having to argue about it at all. Broadsword didn't invent this ;)
 

petemage

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I mean is the bottom line of this thread really other 10+ year old games have bad code but can make stuff happen while unfortunately UO has bad code too but can't make stuff happen? What an unfortunate god given.
 
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ShriNayne

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My husband and I played on one of those other shards for a few months and it was run by one young guy who was at University, there were some fantastic ideas there and some weird ones, one of his best ideas was that if you left your house and items were not locked down you got an alert. Taming was a lot less painful at high level as you just crafted 'pet potions'. The world had the Mondain and Samurai stuff added. I know the code is not exactly the same but it had a lot of stuff that was really great and I'm sure it would be possible here if they really wanted to do it. We didn't stay as the veteran players were pretty insufferable... :D
 
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