Jeff Freeman, Former SWG Lead Gameplay Designer, Commits Suicide

[Extra Value Meal]

This is fairly old news as it happened on the 2nd, but it is still important.

From Gamepolitics.com:

A controversial former member of the Star Wars Galaxies development team has taken his own life, reports The Escapist.

Jeff Freeman, 39, was widely - and unjustly - blamed by fans of the Star Wars-themed MMO for a failed 2005 update:

"He was unfortunate enough to become the public face of the "New Game Enhancements" update, one of the most infamous debacles in MMOG history... even though his role in its development was minor.

Despite the fact that he continued to suffer online abuse at the hands of Star Wars Galaxies players unhappy with the NGE changes even after leaving Sony Online Entertainment in late 2006, Freeman's brother clarified that his suicide had nothing to do with the game. "I want everyone to know that it was not SWG that led him to take his life," he said. "He has been troubled for some time. There were a lot of personal issues that tore at him."

Crispy Gamer has more on Jeff Freeman. "Crying Freeman," a terrific 2007 story piece from The Escapist, details how he came to be blamed for the New Game Enhancements controversy.

While his brother does say that SWG had nothing to do with his death, it can be said with much certainty that the abuse thrown out him played at least some part.

This tells an important lesson for all of us: developers are people just like you and I, and just because we don't agree with a direction they took or a change they made, doesn't mean they deserve death, torture or pain and anguish.

That is all.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

...This tells an important lesson for all of us: developers are people just like you and I, and just because we don't agree with a direction they took or a change they made, doesn't mean they deserve death, torture or pain and anguish.

That is all.

I agree. Just like us devs have lives of their own and deal with the same personal issues that frustrate all of us. I wonder how any of us would stand up if every time we made a mistake a hundred people were screaming for our heads on a platter?

Sure, when the devs implement a code change and it gets messed up... it does affect all the subscibers in the game. But nothing they do is life threatening or costs us our savings, etc.

Like most of us, I love the game and get a little "excited" at times when changes are made. So this advice is for me as much as anyone else. Let's all remember it's a game and the devs are people.

Feedback is important for them to do their jobs... name calling and abuse is NOT something that they get paid for or should have to put up with.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Kaleb]

I wouldnt put any blame on players. AOS was just as bad and none of the UO devs offed themselves. Dude just had issues was weak and needed help but wasnt open enough to get help so he took the easy way out. I dont pitty him one bit sorry.

 

[pavel.vesely]

You have to compare sizes of this two groups, star wars fans overnumber ultima fans by several magnitudes. If ultima game mess-up there may be several over-reacting people, if star wars game mess-up there could be thousands.

 

[Extra Value Meal]

You have to compare sizes of this two groups, star wars fans overnumber ultima fans by several magnitudes. If ultima game mess-up there may be several over-reacting people, if star wars game mess-up there could be thousands.

I agree, but to a point. UO at one time had a lot of subscriptions too.

I wouldnt put any blame on players. AOS was just as bad and none of the UO devs offed themselves. Dude just had issues was weak and needed help but wasnt open enough to get help so he took the easy way out. I dont pitty him one bit sorry.

I am in no way inferring that SWG was the main reason why he offed himself and the article supports this.

 

[miss_samara]

I wouldnt put any blame on players. AOS was just as bad and none of the UO devs offed themselves. Dude just had issues was weak and needed help but wasnt open enough to get help so he took the easy way out. I dont pitty him one bit sorry.

1. Did you know the guy personally? How do you know he wasn't "open enough" to get help?

2. You know nothing about suicide. The human body, with a sick mind or not, has a very strong survival instinct built in. Committing suicide is not easy, even for those hell bent on it.

 

[dielock]

I wouldnt put any blame on players. AOS was just as bad and none of the UO devs offed themselves. Dude just had issues was weak and needed help but wasnt open enough to get help so he took the easy way out. I dont pitty him one bit sorry.

I don't have any pity for him either. If he was not strong enough or too weak to overcome his challenges, than it is his doing not ours. He made the decision to whack himself.

Developers like anyone else with responsibilities still have to account for their deeds. The worst that should happen is they get fired or demoted. They should not continue to be persecuted long after they left the company. They must also learn from their mistakes.

 

[Extra Value Meal]

Developers like anyone else with responsibilities still have to account for their deeds. The worst that should happen is they get fired or demoted. They should not continue to be persecuted long after they left the company. They must also learn from their mistakes.

It's actually quite ironic that this guy played only a minor role in NGE's development. Sadly he was picked as the target for malcontents.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

I don't have any pity for him either. If he was not strong enough or too weak to overcome his challenges, than it is his doing not ours. He made the decision to whack himself.

Failure is one reason someone might take their own life. And even though it's true that this person is responsible for their decision, when you click on your mouse and send some unnessarily sarcistic and acerbic post you are the one making the decision regarding your own actions.

That was the point of my post.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Salty Pete]

The reason everyone blamed Jeff for the NGE was that he took credit for it on his blog;

Jeff Freeman's Blog entry

Friday, November 4
Shenanigans

SWG was my first job in the game industry. I had played UO for a couple of years or so and knew Raph Koster in that internet sort of way: everyone that visited or posted on any message board anywhere on the internet knew Raph Koster.

Played EQ to level 35, got killed by the same frickin' sand giant three times in a row trying to recover my corpse two weeks after a bug caused me to lose all my gear before EQ CS had the tech to undelete items and man that was it for me.

So I made a "grey shard" using POL (written by Eric Swanson, who also works at SOE now ? how weird is that?) and did that for a few years.

Those were Good Times. Friday I'd post a "Wishlist" thread and people would reply with a hundred things they wanted added to the game. And Saturday and Sunday I'd add hundreds of things to the game. Production on a single small server is pretty nice. None of this "Oh, that'll take 2 months to deliver and will require two programmers, a designer and three artists."

A lot of .broadcast "Hey everyone, brace yourselves, I'm going to replace the magic system in 3?2?1"-sorts of moments. Frequently doing development on the server that people were actually playing on, while they are playing on it, and only using a local server for really significant changes.

In terms of administration, the people were a lot harder to manage than the game. Not just the players either, but the co-admin's: the folk that hosted the server, gm "staff", and whatnot. Janey emailed Raph describing a pretty ugly situation, and he'd responded with just some no-nonsense advice on how-to-run-a-mud, which she forwarded to me, and to which I replied, directly to him.

That led directly to establishing, in writing, just what exactly the scope of everyone's responsibilities were, what the rules were, how they would be enforced, and so on. Simple stuff, right? We had none of that and, duh, we ran into a lot of problems 'til we did.

This had nothing to do with his position in the game industry and everything to do with his experience with MUDs, and my lack of it, and his willingness to share info with a fellow enthusiast. Great learning experience, should I ever run a MUD again: Sony hires professionals to do that stuff.

But it also opened a dialog between the two of us and I s'pose put my crazyass game design ideas on his radar.

Anyway, hadn't talked to Raph in a while (because, well, things had been running pretty smoothly) so one day I emailed him and asked how he'd been. He said if I sent him a resume then he could tell me what he was working on.

So I sent him a resume. And they flew me down to Austin to meet the whole SWG team and interview for a systems design position, which I didn't get. Heh.

Couple months later they flew me back again for a worldbuilding position, which I did get.

Within a few months or so I was scripting systems. Then within a couple years, lead content designer for JtL. Then a few months ago, "live lead systems designer". My titles were growing and growing!

As of last week or so, now it's "Lead Game Play Designer". A step backwards in terms of character-count, but not actually a demotion, or even that big a change in responsibilities.

Mind, we have a Creative Director and that isn't me, and a Lead Designer and that isn't me either. They're both my bosses, even though my title's longer. And there's a whole plethora of producers and executives and executive producers above that.

So don't get the crazy notion that I'm "in charge" here. "The Man" is a many-headed beast called Management. I just try to help it make good decisions. With regard to game mechanics, it even lets me decide, sometimes.

So a few months ago The Man comes along and says "What can we do to make this the most fun game it can possibly be?"

It was the lead designer who holed-up in his office for a few days and then said, "Hey, come look at this."

There's no way we can do that.

There's no way we should do that.

Man that's fun.

The Man will never let us get away with doing that.

We can't do it.

We shouldn't do it.

Oh man that is fun.

When an executive producer sees something that is impossible to do, but which is too fun not to do, he makes a noise like "Hoooooooooph".

My job was to be the guy to say, "Yes we can do that." I had to say this about forty times a day for two months. Lead Designer said it too, of course, but no one believed him, because he's crazy. Obviously.

And they would only believe me for a few minutes at a time.

It's frustrating to see the posts about Raph rolling over in his grave, crying himself to sleep, seeing all his design thrown out the window, etc. The notion seems to be that Raph's game is slow-paced, deliberate, social, "worldy", and in no case ever "fun" vs. this change which tosses-out everything Koster-esque about Galaxies. Specifically, that 'removing the Raph' is what makes it fun.

First off, Star Wars Galaxies is already a whole lot of fun for a whole lot of people. And it was very successful.

And Fast Action Combat and the introduction of classes based on iconic Star Wars character archtypes doesn't toss-out everything Koster-esque about Galaxies. Far from it.

The social elements of Galaxies' design remain, and for good reason. MMOs must be MMOs and not just big single-player games that everyone just happens to play all at once. We wouldn't have gotten things like player cities, entertainers and so on without Raph, and I wouldn't want Galaxies to be without them. Simply removing them wouldn't make the game more fun anyway.

There's a lot of cool in Galaxies. We're making all of it easier to see, easier to get to.

Honestly, I doubt I even have the capacity to design a game that is completely un-Raph like. Who do you think taught me this stuff? Over the course of years. Here's how you get X. Here's why you want X.

Yeh, I think I'm good 'nuff to see the 'why' and come up with 'Well if that's why, then we could do Z instead', but at that point it's a quibble over implementation detail, not design philosophy. I don't agree with Raph on every point about every thing, we're pretty much aligned in terms of high level game design.

For example 'Socialization requires downtime' is something Raph might say that I might not agree with. But 'MMO's require socialization, otherwise what's the point?' is not something we'd disagree about.

Many people have been influential in my personal development as a game designer and I've learned an awful lot on my own, but nothing and no other single person comes anywhere close the influence that Raph Koster has had on, in terms of game design from soup-to-nuts, what things I think about, if not in fact what I think about those things.

So I think these sorts of remarks are a little inaccurate, a tiny bit irksome, pretty unfair.



Shenanigans | postCountTB('113115312865670412'); Trackback (0)

He basically held up a sign that said, "Hey look what I did!" right as the mob came down his street with pitchforks and torches.

Personally I feel bad for his friends and family for having to live with his decisions. (The suicide mainly, but also the NGE).

 

[Tamais]

Shame on those of you who presume to judge him. How dare you, have you ever been in the postiion where death becomes so attractive that you have tried to take your life. I have fought suicide since high school and i'm now 54
Both of my kids have also fought this demon. Help is not always easy to get especially in a world that feels depression and mental heath means you are a weak person. My heart goes out to him and to his family. The failure was not his. Instead it was the failure of the world we live in

 

[Salty Pete]

Shame on those of you who presume to judge him. How dare you, have you ever been in the postiion where death becomes so attractive that you have tried to take your life. I have fought suicide since high school and i'm now 54
Both of my kids have also fought this demon. Help is not always easy to get especially in a world that feels depression and mental heath means you are a weak person. My heart goes out to him and to his family. The failure was not his. Instead it was the failure of the world we live in

Shame on people who are calling out a coward for taking a coward's way out? No, shame on him for putting his family and friends through the pain. Shame on you for defending such a selfish and ignoble death.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Shame on those of you who presume to judge him. How dare you, have you ever been in the postiion where death becomes so attractive that you have tried to take your life. I have fought suicide since high school and i'm now 54
Both of my kids have also fought this demon. Help is not always easy to get especially in a world that feels depression and mental heath means you are a weak person. My heart goes out to him and to his family. The failure was not his. Instead it was the failure of the world we live in

Shame on people who are calling out a coward for taking a coward's way out? No, shame on him for putting his family and friends through the pain. Shame on you for defending such a selfish and ignoble death.

While one can express ones opinions as you have about suicide, the person you replied to was addressing the bogus, stupid, moronic need to pretend to "KNOW" the person and then pretend to "KNOW" the reasons yadda yadda yadda why the person the "KNEW" oh so well did what ever, then to pretend to "KNOW" how to "FIX" the individual.

Some one made in irrevocable choice, they did it for their own reasons. One can never "KNOW" if their reasons were Noble or Ignoble. All that can be "KNOWN" is the individual made a choice.

One would think, that people could respect the right of the individual to make that choice, just leave it at that and move on.

But no, they need to take the "ULTIMATE COWARD" steps and speak, vilify some one that "CAN NOT" defend them self.

In context, the ONLY thing that is relevant here, is IF he did NOT HAVE A THICK ENOUGH SKIN to shrug off the criticism, then it would behoove us all to recognize that there may be unintended consequences to our "COWARDLY ANONYMOUS" actions, unless of course the goal of our actions, is to commit murder or harm, with our words. If that is the case then we should all be very very much against those individuals. And I have NO DOUBT they exist.

 

[Salty Pete]

Some one made in irrevocable choice, they did it for their own reasons. One can never "KNOW" if their reasons were Noble or Ignoble. All that can be "KNOWN" is the individual made a choice.

In this case we know that he did not commit suicide for a noble cause... He was not protecting his buddies by throwing himself on a grenade, he was escaping his troubles.

Here is the quote from his brother about the suicide;

"I want everyone to know that it was not SWG that led him to take his life," he said. "He has been troubled for some time. There were a lot of personal issues that tore at him."

quoted from http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/86552-Jeff-Freeman-Former-SWG-Lead-Gameplay-Designer-Dies

 

[Sam the Scribe]

In this case we know that he did not commit suicide for a noble cause... He was not protecting his buddies by throwing himself on a grenade, he was escaping his troubles.

Here is the quote from his brother about the suicide;

The only person who really knew the reasons is dead. To quote a news article is arrogant and ignorant.

You are only pretending that you have some insight into the issue and using a hyperlink to support that. In fact, you know nothing. So... say nothing.

How's that.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Salty Pete]

The only person who really knew the reasons is dead. To quote a news article is arrogant and ignorant.

You are only pretending that you have some insight into the issue and using a hyperlink to support that. In fact, you know nothing. So... say nothing.

How's that.

Safe Travels, Sam

Nothing noble about suicide to avoid troubles. Sorry. THX4PLYN Good day.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

In this case we know that he did not commit suicide for a noble cause... He was not protecting his buddies by throwing himself on a grenade, he was escaping his troubles....

Actually I'm compelled to reply again to your ignorant remarks...

What do you know about his real reasons for his agnozing decision to end his own life? NOTHING!

Here is one possible reason that people kill themselves:

1. Terminal illness where the treatment will cost family all they have monetarily and emotionally.

Usually in a case like this, the family isn't going to spell it all out for everyone else... basically it's none of our business.

Life isn't a John Wayne movie. We don't all die taking a bullet for the President or diving on a hand grenade. The decision to take one's own life is excruciatingly difficult and one must overcome instinctual mechanisms for self-preservation. Some grown men get dizzy just getting a flu shot. Have you ever sliced your own flesh open repeatedly trying to find a vein?

Most people don't make that decision in a 5-minute period. Months of clinical depression lead to a personal erosion of self esteem that ends up becoming a perfectly logical logical decision that their own life has no value.

You need to realize that by the time someone decides that they CAN kill themselves, they are not thinking the same way that us "normal" people do. They do not apply the same value to life. Their fundamental thought process has changed. And guess what... there are signs of this that family and friends can see... yet the lack of support ends up affirming the victims own decision to kill themselves.

You know NOTHING.

Keep your opinions limited to UO and game mechanics.

When you reply to a message of this emotional and spiritual caliber, as you have, you just come off looking like a 12yr old. I don't care if IRL you are 50.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Salty Pete]

Here is one possible reason that people kill themselves:

1. Terminal illness where the treatment will cost family all they have monetarily and emotionally.

Obviously you can't read... Jeff used suicide to escape personal life troubles, not serious illness. He didn't take his life in order to save his family... He was running away from his troubles. His brother posted about it on a few different sites as well as this information being collaborated by people he knew and worked with IRL.

You might not KNOW what is going on, but in this case I do. If you take the time to read the sources I did you will KNOW too.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

Obviously you can't read... Jeff used suicide to escape personal life troubles, not serious illness. He didn't take his life in order to save his family... He was running away from his troubles. His brother posted about it on a few different sites as well as this information being collaborated by people he knew and worked with IRL.

You might not KNOW what is going on, but in this case I do. If you take the time to read the sources I did you will KNOW too.

Um... again, you are quoting a press release... so therefore you don't KNOW that was really in the mind of the deceased. I guess you missed that part of my post... also that family probably aren't really gonna tell strangers what is going on anyway...

This is a life lesson for you. You aren't a good student and I am going to give up on you now, ok? Someday, life will teach you this lesson on a personal level. Life does that. You have failed... F-

If the time comes where life asks the same questions of you and you fail again... you will come back as a rat or cockroach...

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Salty Pete]

This is a life lesson for you. You aren't a good student and I am going to give up on you now, ok? Someday, life will teach you this lesson on a personal level. Life does that. You have failed... F-

The difference between me and you is that when life teaches me a lesson I don't quit and leave the burden on my family and friends ala Jeff Freeman. I adapt and over come.

When you quit, you automatically fail. Contrary to your looney belief that you will be able to come back as a cockroach or whatever when you kill your self there is no do over. You are done for good. The dead are gone forever.

I hope that your family and friends are never subjected to your willingness to use a final solution to a temporary problem.

 

[UltimaSword]

I'm going to post more later but Salty Pete I agree with you again.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

The difference between me and you is that when life teaches me a lesson I don't quit and leave the burden on my family and friends ala Jeff Freeman. I adapt and over come.

When you quit, you automatically fail. Contrary to your looney belief that you will be able to come back as a cockroach or whatever when you kill your self there is no do over. You are done for good. The dead are gone forever.

I hope that your family and friends are never subjected to your willingness to use a final solution to a temporary problem.

You are such a role model for us all. When is your book coming out?

You got me on the whole cockroach thing... I really thought they had such fun lives I was hoping to off myself and come back as one... so you're saying there is nothing after death?

Wow, guess you're already killed yourself before and know that from personal experience. Thanks for the tip.

Like most posters on Stratics, your confidence in your own beliefs, and your poor reading skills seem to go hand-in-hand.

Enjoy your short meanlingless life. Watch those John Wayne movies over and over... rewinding the parts where the guy whose name never makes it to the credits... jumps on the grenade. Such a noble death for ol' wassisname!

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[UltimaSword]

OKAY Suicide. Sometimes it can be to help others. Majority of the time it is to escape life's troubles. There are some people who have incredible obstacles to overcome and others not so much. BUT the fact is that suicide is mainly a permanent solution to a temporary problem. A lot of people think about suicide. I have too. But the thing to realize that ending it all will basically make you lose ANY chance at making your life better. it will also bring great pain and heartbreak to those that care about you. From the information given this guy made a very selfish move. Again this is from the information given.

If you suffer from suicidal thoughts all the time and your kids do to. That is a mental disorder. Chronic depression. Just like any other disorder or disease. It is kind of like fat people. Some are literally fat people at heart and just eat and eat and do no exercise. Some have thyroid or other physical conditions that prevent maintaining a normal weight. They make medicines for these things. And while they do not always help the world does have solutions.

I really do not feel sorry for this guy. I feel sorry for his family and friends who must nor overcome the death of a friend. A death that (from the info given) was from a temporary problem.

 

[Salty Pete]

so you're saying there is nothing after death?

Yep. Unless you can show me otherwise.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

...I really do not feel sorry for this guy. I feel sorry for his family and friends who must nor overcome the death of a friend. A death that (from the info given) was from a temporary problem.

You don't feel sorry for someone that has undergone so much personal pain that they ended their own life?

You don't know what pain is. You don't know what pain means.

And certainly, you don't understand the true meaning of sympathy or compassion.

Glad you get your life lessons from Eminem. He's a fabulous role model.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Sam the Scribe]

Yep. Unless you can show me otherwise.

Sorry dude but that was YOUR statement so you are the one that needs to provide proof.

Don't you hate it when real life rules subjugate your own personal world-view?

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[UltimaSword]

heh typical insult a rapper. Do you know Eminem's pain and suffering? Do you know what his life was like? Probably not. You probably don't understand his music but whatever not the point. You are very ignorant on this issue. Suicide is selfish. Yes I feel bad for his suffering but it seemed to be self-inflicted. Most people who commit suicide inflict the pains and sufferings on themselves. they take something and make it way to serious to themselves or they let something that happened to them in the past continue to inflict harm in the future. Also you didn't prove me wrong. you just insulted me and typed how I don't know pain. Believe me I know pain. My life wasn't all happy times. I had to make it that way. I thought of suicide but it would have been a selfish and foolish decision. Listening to Eminem helped me.

 

[Salty Pete]

Sorry dude but that was YOUR statement so you are the one that needs to provide proof.

Don't you hate it when real life rules subjugate your own personal world-view?

Safe Travels, Sam

I don't have to provide proof of non-existance, there is no such thing. You have to provide proof of existance.

Don't you hate it when logic and reason subjugate your own personal world-view?

 

[Sam the Scribe]

heh typical insult a rapper. Do you know Eminem's pain and suffering? Do you know what his life was like? Probably not. You probably don't understand his music but whatever not the point. You are very ignorant on this issue. Suicide is selfish. Yes I feel bad for his suffering but it seemed to be self-inflicted. Most people who commit suicide inflict the pains and sufferings on themselves. they take something and make it way to serious to themselves or they let something that happened to them in the past continue to inflict harm in the future. Also you didn't prove me wrong. you just insulted me and typed how I don't know pain. Believe me I know pain. My life wasn't all happy times. I had to make it that way. I thought of suicide but it would have been a selfish and foolish decision. Listening to Eminem helped me.

Oh, I insulted a rapper? I didn't realize my comments were so genere-specific. I know nothing about Eminem... my comment was about YOU. Do you have so little self esteem that you are unable to make your opinions on life known without hiding under the shield of some famous persona?

Gee, can we miss the fact you have his picture and a quote as your identity on Stratics?

And... now you admit you feel bad for the suicide vicitms suffering. What kept you from admiting that earlier? I find that I'm defending a dead man that I don't even know. But people like yourself seem to be jumping on the bandwagon that he deserves no pity or compassion. Do your earlier remarks redeem you in any way from my conclusion? NO.

You feel pain for the life of a "rapper" who you really don't know, but some man dies... who you also don't know and you show no sympathy. Is fame the catalyst for your sympathy?

I am sorry for the hundreds of thousands of people who die every year that don't get to record a CD... you don't care about them at all do you. You can't quote them, can you?

Oh, and that quote by Eminem... probably written by someone else. Get a life.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Sam the Scribe]

I don't have to provide proof of non-existance, there is no such thing. You have to provide proof of existance.

Don't you hate it when logic and reason subjugate your own personal world-view?

No, I just hate it when people write one thing, then try to slide out from under their own statements.

As I said earlier, I've given up on you. Enjoy your life as a rat. If I'm wrong and you are right... then enjoy your next life as nothing.

Win, win for me.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Salty Pete]

I find that I'm defending a dead man that I don't even know.

Or want to know anything about. You are sitting here typing furiously on a crusade for ignorance. Your arguments are circling downward into personal insults as you consistantly ignore the facts of the situation and defend an undefendable action.

 

[UltimaSword]

Oh, I insulted a rapper? I didn't realize my comments were so genere-specific. I know nothing about Eminem... my comment was about YOU. Do you have so little self esteem that you are unable to make your opinions on life known without hiding under the shield of some famous persona?

Gee, can we miss the fact you have his picture and a quote as your identity on Stratics?

And... now you admit you feel bad for the suicide vicitms suffering. What kept you from admiting that earlier? I find that I'm defending a dead man that I don't even know. But people like yourself seem to be jumping on the bandwagon that he deserves no pity or compassion. Do your earlier remarks redeem you in any way from my conclusion? NO.

You feel pain for the life of a "rapper" who you really don't know, but some man dies... who you also don't know and you show no sympathy. Is fame the catalyst for your sympathy?

I am sorry for the hundreds of thousands of people who die every year that don't get to record a CD... you don't care about them at all do you. You can't quote them, can you?

Oh, and that quote by Eminem... probably written by someone else. Get a life.

Safe Travels, Sam

Because most people here seem to have issues having logical and non-insulting debate without freaking out, this is my last post here (in this thread) because you are so blinded by your own delusions...

You insulted him by mocking the fact that he is a role model to me. Pretty self explanatory. My opinions are similar to his. My opinions are my own and I liked him because his reflect mine

I never said I didn't feel bad for their suffering. I said I don't feel bad that they are dead. That is their own decision that brings pain to all of their family and friends.

What bandwagon? I feel people who commit suicide should have explored other options. I mean if their pain is so great what is another try. I bet people who kill themselves (if there is an after-life) regret it because it was probably the heat of the moment.

As most people who hate on rap you do not seem to understand what rap is. Mainly it is the story of their life. About their struggle and successes. About how their life was, their family, their friends. Rappers reveal a lot about themselves in their raps and basically open themselves up to the world. Meaning if you listen to the raps of a rapper you will know a lot about them as a person.

I cannot quote those people as they have nothing out their to quote. you know nothing about me or the amount of empathy I have for those who die and must suffer unwillingly. Someone who commits suicide might as well spit in the face of all people who die unwillingly. Who lose their life and had no say in the matter. While a person who commits suicide does.

Here let me end my post with many more quotes by Eminem. By the way he wrote them all.

"Look, if you had one shot, or one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted-One moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?" Eminem

"No more games, I'ma change what you call rage
Tear this motha****** roof off like 2 dogs caged
I was playin in the beginnin, the mood all changed
I been chewed up and spit out and booed off stage
But I kept rhymin and stepwritin the next cypher
Best believe somebody's payin the pied piper
All the pain inside amplified by the fact
That I can't get by with my 9 to 5
And I can't provide the right type of life for my family
Cause man, these goddam food stamps don't buy diapers
And it's no movie, there's no Makai Pfeiffer, this is my life
And these times are so hard and it's getting even harder
Tryin to feed and water my seed, plus
Teeter-totter caught up between being a father and a prima donna
Baby mama drama's screamin on and
Too much for me to wanna
Stay in one spot, another day of monotony
Has gotten me to the point, I'm like a snail
I've got to formulate a plot or end up in jail or shot
Success is my only motha****** option, failure's not
Mom, I love you, but this trailer's got to go
I cannot grow old in Salem's lot
So here I go is my shot.
Feet fail me not this may be the only opportunity that I got" -Eminem

"My baby girl, keeps getting older, i watch her grow up with pride.
People make jokes, cause they don't understand me, they just don't see my real side.
I act like stuff don't phase me, inside it drives my crazy, my insecurities could eat my alive.
But then i see my baby, suddenly im not crazy.
It all makes sense when i look into here eye's" -Eminem

"Now you'd probably get this picture from my public persona,
that I'm a pistol-packing drug addict that bags on his mama,
but i wanna take this time to be perfectly honest, cause there's a lot of stuff
that i keep bottled that hurts deep inside of my soul
and just know that i grow colder the older i grow,
this boulder on my shoulder gets heavy and harder to hold
and this load is like the weight of the world, and i think my neck is breaking
should i just give up, or try to live up to these expectations
now look, i love my daughter more than life in it self
but i got a wife that's determined to make my life living hell
But i handle it well, givin' the circumstances I'm dealt, so many chances
man its to bad i could of had someone else, but the years that I've wasted
is nothing to the tears that I've tasted, so here's what i'm facing:
three felonies, six years of probation, I've went to jail for this woman
I've been to bat for this woman, I've taken bats to peoples backs bent over backwards for this woman
Man i should've seen it coming, why'd i stick my ***** up it,
wouldn't have ripped the prenup up if i'd seen what she was *******,
but **** it, its over there's no more reason to cry no more
i got my baby, baby the only lady that i adore, Hailie
so sayonara, try tomara nice to know you
my baby has traveled back to the arms of her rightful owner
and suddenly it seems like my shoulder blades have just shifted
its like the greatest gift you can get, the weight has been lifted" -Eminem

But someone wrote that all for him. I could quote for hours. Like I said though last post.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

Because most people here seem to have issues having logical and non-insulting debate without freaking out, this is my last post here (in this thread) because you are so blinded by your own delusions...

You insulted him by mocking the fact that he is a role model to me. Pretty self explanatory. My opinions are similar to his. My opinions are my own and I liked him because his reflect mine

I never said I didn't feel bad for their suffering. I said I don't feel bad that they are dead. That is their own decision that brings pain to all of their family and friends.

From your original post...

*** I really do not feel sorry for this guy. ***

And the fact that instead of writing your OWN thoughts and feelings you have transcribed some song lyrics... and forgive me for pointing out that lyrics are written by song writers and often not the "artists" that perform the music.

I am sooooo sorry the I insulted your idol Eminem. I guess when he wrote a song calling his wife and mother of his daughter... well who really cares what he hes to say after that? Life is tough for multi-millionaire um... whatevers.

Gee, some record exec tole me I'm something... guess all those folks that told me I'm nothing are crap. Woot!

Explain, and think about this carefully how your obsession with Emimem fits into this topic at all...

Who cares about the opinions about some has-been white rapper? His mom? When Eminem offs himself like Kurt Cobain I'm sure you will be among the legions that tell how his death was so NOBLE and how his b***h of a wife forced him to his untimely end.

So talented.... *sniff* His lyrics reached a generation... *sniff*

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT EMINEM IDIOT. Read the posts before you reply.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Sam the Scribe]

Or want to know anything about. You are sitting here typing furiously on a crusade for ignorance. Your arguments are circling downward into personal insults as you consistantly ignore the facts of the situation and defend an undefendable action.

All of your comments are based on press releases and what you have read in the web. You do not know what was in the mind of the man who you are talking about.

Blah, blah, blah. If you give me your mailing address I'll send you a "IM WITH STUPID" t-tshirt. (arrow up)

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Salty Pete]

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT EMINEM IDIOT.

You obviously have nothing left to say here as you have slipped beyond arguing a position and are now just randomly insulting the people who disagree with you.

 

[Salty Pete]

All of your comments are based on press releases and what you have read in the web. You do not know what was in the mind of the man who you are talking about.

Press releases? I have been reading message board traffic and email from people that knew and worked with Jeff including his own brother. Hardly a press release. All of it is verifyable and accurate coming from respectable sources. Unlike your childish tirade. I used one quote here that you could easily check the source on... I didn't bother to post the rest. You can use google yourself and find out what you are talking about.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

You obviously have nothing left to say here as you have slipped beyond arguing a position and are now just randomly insulting the people who disagree with you.

Nope, still arguing a position... just dealing with idiots. Nothing random about it... my replies are direct and directed to the person making the comment.

Are you an Eminem fan too?

Would you toss yourself on a grenade to save Eminem's life? Would you do it just for fun... you're the grenade guy, right?

Before you submit "Nobility" as a reason for suicide you might want to know what you're talking about.

And before you quote some white-rapper as your godfather of morality you might want to know what that person is really like.

So... I'm not done here.

The issue is based on the OP... not your fascination with Eminem... or your disregard for human life. (More than one person included in that remark.)

All life is sacred and any disregard for human suffering and death is not acceptable. Period. That is my position on this matter.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I don't have to provide proof of non-existance, there is no such thing. You have to provide proof of existance.

Don't you hate it when logic and reason subjugate your own personal world-view?

Well some fun

Can you prove to me that you exist if I walk out of the room your in and close the door? Why no you can not. You have ceased to exist to me and I have ceased to exist for you.

While I may assume your existence is continued, I have no proof of this.

The problem your line of argument has, is that you can not prove we exist as real entities. We now have sufficient knowledge and technology to know what "Virtual Reality" is.

If you look at all the religions, sans the religion of Atheism, they all tell you this existence is just a "Virtual Reality", for you to do what ever that particular religion says your doing.

Given the above then it is incumbent on you to prove this is in fact the Real Reality.

Short version, we all believe in something. Even the Athiest believes in something, in their context it is the belief that there is nothing.

Science believes that the Laws of the Universe are real. But it is a given they can NOT prove they do. As a matter of fact an interesting piece of Quantum Mechanics, says the Rules of the Universe are being redetermined at Quantum Time Scales and there is zero guarantee they will be determined exactly the same way they were the previous instance of existence. That aspect may be the ultimate fate, as in defeat of entropy, of the Universe that at some point in time it gets a new set of rules and becomes a new thing.

So you should prove we do exist for real and are not just experiencing an exceptionally good Virtual Reality, that will lead to us either passing or failing some kind of test.

 

[Salty Pete]

Well some fun

Can you prove to me that you exist if I walk out of the room your in and close the door? Why no you can not. You have ceased to exist to me and I have ceased to exist for you.

Of course I can. I can have a third party observe and record my existance. Also, I can set up a TV feed for a portable TV that you view as you leave. I can set up various communications systems that will allow you to monitor my existance as you leave. We can use a multitude of recording and data collecting devices to build an orgy of evidence to help establish my existance along with my own observations and that of impartial third party observers.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Of course I can. I can have a third party observe and record my existance. Also, I can set up a TV feed for a portable TV that you view as you leave. I can set up various communications systems that will allow you to monitor my existance as you leave. We can use a multitude of recording and data collecting devices to build an orgy of evidence to help establish my existance along with my own observations and that of impartial third party observers.

I am sorry but those do not constitute proof. If the 3rd party observer were able to observe both of us at the same time, with their own sense, then the condition can not have been meet. You must be out of sight, if it is just around some barrier then you are not out of sight.

Recordings / electronic transmissions are absolutely not proof as we both can recognize the ability to generate data.

Nice try but you have offered up no proof.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

Press releases? I have been reading message board traffic and email from people that knew and worked with Jeff including his own brother. Hardly a press release. All of it is verifyable and accurate coming from respectable sources. Unlike your childish tirade. I used one quote here that you could easily check the source on... I didn't bother to post the rest. You can use google yourself and find out what you are talking about.

Again I must point out that you nor anyone else knows what the deceased was thinking. Even a suicide note won't necessarily include the real reason for the act. And... "message board traffic." Well, that is always so reliable. I can't believe you even suggested message boards as a reliable source of information.

If you can show me where Google can reach into a dead person's mind... well then I will say that Google has gone too far.

Again... read the post... understand that nobody including yourself really knows what the deceased was thinking and then give up your ridiculous arguments based on wisps of air and clouds.

cya

 

[Salty Pete]

I am sorry but those do not constitute proof. If the 3rd party observer were able to observe both of us at the same time, with their own sense, then the condition can not have been meet. You must be out of sight, if it is just around some barrier then you are not out of sight.

Recordings / electronic transmissions are absolutely not proof as we both can recognize the ability to generate data.

Nice try but you have offered up no proof.

Honestly this should be its own thread so this will be my last post on this topic in this thread....

Ignoring and denying gathered repeatable and verifyable evidence is not the same thing as not having evidence.

 

[IdoBods]

As the brother of a little sister who attempted and thank whatever gods you my or may not believe in, survived a suicide attempt by only a matter of hours, I find that judging this guy a sad state of affairs.

Depression and mental health issues are not and should not be made fun of. Yes, suicide results in only pain and hurt for the survivors, however, for those that are truly at the end and see no hope, it is as they see it, a way to free their loved ones from all the hurt and despair they are causing.

My family and I sat through weeks of counseling with my sister, listening to her as she recounted how she felt she was making OUR lives better by not being here.

I do not know this man, I don't pretend that I know the REAL circumstances surrounding his suicide. Perhaps it was all related to the game, perhaps he had demons following him from his childhood as my sister did (depression and mental health problems).

What I find sad is the lack of empathy for a man who felt for whatever reason it was, that killing himself made the world a better off place.

Yes, he caused great sorrow, grief, anger, and countless other emotions among his family and friends, but I would bet you could not measure the complete anguish and thousands of other negative emotions he was feeling at the time he decided to end his life.

IMHO, unless you can say you have sat through counseling sessions with someone who attempted and would have succeed in suicide if not for pure luck of someone finding her unconscious literally hours before death, watching her suffer in the hospital on machines keeping her alive, and hearing what a tortured world she felt she was living in, then you have no room to speak in the matter.

At this point, I am now rambling out of anger/frustration and will just post this. Whether I was able to make my point or not, I do not know. To bring the death of anyone to the point of argument in a forum... SAD.

My one and only post in this topic.

 

[monnie101]

I'm disgusted by some of the replies here. They make me sick and some of you have no heart or shame. Those of you who judge, have no right. You don't know this guy or his life. People don't just easily commit suicide. You may want to put your hand on your chest to check to make sure you're heart is indeed in working order.

Let me tell you something. I grew up in a life I never asked to be born in and wouldn't wish on anyone. Police and doctors knowingly allowed the beatings to go on even when I begged them for help. I've been thru counseling for over 8 years & studied psychology to find out what's wrong with me. I self-diagnosed myself before the doctors did and got it confirmed.

I was beaten as a child and treated in ways I wouldn't wish on anyone. Every single day I would fight to stay alive. Before I was even 8 years old, I was already suicidal. I only didn't do it because I didn't have the guts. When I became a teenager I went so far as to obtain the tools needed to do it without worrying of ending up in a wheelchair. Today it is 8 years past and I'm still alive. Music and art saved my life. And though I am well passed those days, I still struggle thru bouts of depression and nightmares. 8 years ago my friend Chris committed suicide at the age of 21. He tricked someone into selling him a gun by telling them it was for protection. As soon as I found out that he bought one and did it, I couldn't believe that these so called friends wouldn't see the obvious reason why he wanted it. This was a good kid who many would call a goody too shoes, a square, nerdy, and he would never dare touch anything illegal. His mother once found a porn mag under his bed and made him sit in his room for days on end reading the bible at the age of 20. He was scolded and told he had demons inside. Eventually, he after trying over and over to make his parents proud, taking his depression medications, doing everything to help himself and parents, finally he gave up. He wrote a will to give his car to his ex girlfriend, and blew his brains all over the bedroom wall. His divorced parents who I personally blame, argued in front of everyone at the funeral, blaming everyone but themselves. His mother wouldn't let him have a father son relationship. His father called my job daily asking for him because he couldn't call home since his mother still held bitterness that he cheated on her 18 years prior. Even though she was married.

Another friend, has also been FIGHTING DEPRESSION ALL HIS LIFE! We are striving to survive and it is only art that has held. I always said, their must be a reason to live, something has got to give.

I just came out with a CD. One of the tracks is called, "Hang On" which is dedicated to the Megan Meier story. A young girl who hung herself and suffered depression and was then tricked and bullied on Myspace by a mother and aunt of another girl who setup a fake boyfriend story. Everytime I worked on this track I was in tears and angry. I also put the article on the CD which i an interactive disc.

This is my first and last reply in this thread. Sometimes one persons life can be torture and one can only handle so much pain. As a child I was beaten nearly to death and sexually abused, my life was threatened on a regular basis. The physical pain was horrible but it healed, so I much preffered it over the painful mental abuse, which never completely heals. Till this day I regularly relive the nightmares. The past 3 days I haven't slept at night because it's a terror ride thru the past.

I hope some of you who wrote those mean replies, have a change of heart. To say such things is awful. Over the years I've met similar people who have told me to, "get over it" that's when I made another track called "The Terror" which attempts to put someone into the hot seat who says such a dreaded thing.

Put your headphones and listen to this:
http://grimmwebsite.com/audio/Grimm_The-Terror.mp3

If you thought that was painful, imagine living it for your entire childhood.

To listen to the track, "Hang On" which is dedicated to the Mega Meier Story, go the link below. Every time I hear Megan's mother's voice, a big gulp comes on where I try to hold in my tears. I've always hated bullies. The biggest one I ever met personally was my own father. Thru it all I've never wanted pity from anyone and I always said, If I'm ever found dead, just throw me in the furnace and forget about me, live your life. Suicide is never the easy way out. It's the desperate way out. If you ever know anyone who is suicide, be there friend, help them, be there for them. I have a friend right now who has tried multiple times.

http://www.myspace.com/GrimmWebsite

Lastly, I hope the man is resting in peace in a place more understanding and compassionate then the divided world we live in.

"Stay Strong, Keep Hope Alive" - Jason Grimm

P/S I apologize for the extreme feelings but I feel many people still need to be educated on this subject. In both UO and websites such as YouTube, you can find bullies who are constantly calling overweight teenage girls "fat and disguting *******" as well as many other shameful quotes. They do it over and over. They use the excuse that because it is on the internet that they shouldn't be offended. These things hurt peoples feelings and sometimes the people being harassed begin to turn to self-medicating drugs, bulimia, or self-mutilation. Their is absolutely no excuse for a bully going around randomly putting people down who are without guard. I've always hated bullies. In school, everytime I saw someone being picked on and kicked, I jumped in and said, "why are you hitting someone who is afraid to hit back? Leave him alone. Come pick on me." and 90% of the time, these bullies cowered and walked away. Ultima Online is infested with bullies and it's one of the primary reasons I left. It hurt me just to see brand new players being scammed for spite. One thing I know for sure, these bullies would never do such in my neighborhood.

 

[miss_samara]

God. I wish there were a banging my head against the wall icon. This is what I feel like.

I truly think someone has to be mentally ill to end their own life. As I said in a previous post, your body has strong self preservation instincts built in. For your mind to override that, something has to be wrong with it.

I'm sure it feels nice to tell yourself that he was weak and you are not, but I think this is false thinking.

 

[miss_samara]

P/S I apologize for the extreme feelings but I feel many people still need to be educated on this subject.

I think the problem is that some people do not want to be educated about it. It feels nicer to think that the guy was "weak", and therefore deserved it.

The thought that they are "strong" makes them feel safe and secure. I think it's because the thought that one day, they too, could become sick and depressed enough to do the same thing scares them.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

P/S I apologize for the extreme feelings but I feel many people still need to be educated on this subject.

I think the problem is that some people do not want to be educated about it. It feels nicer to think that the guy was "weak", and therefore deserved it.

The thought that they are "strong" makes them feel safe and secure. I think it's because the thought that one day, they too, could become sick and depressed enough to do the same thing scares them.

It is fear that drives the remarks.

One sees a homeless person, hoping they do not make eye contact before they can avert their eyes.

One sees a deformed person, and quickly looks the other way.

ETC ETC ETC

They are all for the same reason, a cliche explains it, in its most simple form, "There but for the grace of God, go I"

I have likened it to "Whistling in the Dark as one passes a grave yard".

Fear is the motivator, insecurity is the path, devaluing another (anyone and everyone else) so one looks to be of greater value is the goal. It isn't that one endeavors to elevate oneself, no to the contrary, one endeavors to bring others down to a level lower than themselves. One can go very very very far to cover ones fear.

When there is fear or hatred in ones mind, there is no room for anything else.

 

[UltimaSword]

Weak... sometimes. Foolish... yes. I am fully educated on it and the psychological aspects. I have also faced it myself. You don't know me. End of story. You people are using emotions to make your views on the subject. Many people have terrible lives. Killing yourself doesn't help. There is no excuse for killing yourself. I feel bad for your lives but if you had killed yourself would things have gotten better? No. End. of. Story.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

...No. End. of. Story.

Sorry Ultima, but you do not control the world so you do not say when the story is over or the discussion for that matter. Just another display of arrogance on your part.

Anyway, this has been one of the best threads I've seen on this board. Folks that really know what the score is are taking time to talk about real life experience. I think that is fantastic and I hope that maybe in some way this thread is helpful to anyone dealing with depression. Maybe even folks that don't really understand it could learn something, if they open their minds.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[UltimaSword]

Ever prevent someone from killing themselves? Yeah that's me. Did I say to him what I said here? Of course not that would not have been logical. Here I lay out facts. With him I boosted confidence and self-love. But you know I know nothing on the subject heh.