In-Game Vendor Search is overdue

[startle]

....The problem for UO is the lack of players and because of a lack of players, a lack of motive to keep vendors stocked. A lot of players don't have time to waste poking around unstocked vendors.

I support such an official search engine now, but I believe you should still have to visit the actual location to buy the items. I also think it needs to be in-game.

I agree completely. Running around Sosaria and finding either no vendors or empty ones is both depressing and a waste of time. It does need to be "in-game" as Woodsman suggests, and it should only "point" you to the vendors so that you can go there and purchase directly from them. That would be the best of both worlds.

 

[Thimotty]

Maybe someone can ask this (in QA5 maybe or tweeter).....

 

[Anon McDougle]

I agree completely. Running around Sosaria and finding either no vendors or empty ones is both depressing and a waste of time. It does need to be "in-game" as Woodsman suggests, and it should only "point" you to the vendors so that you can go there and purchase directly from them. That would be the best of both worlds.

The only way to get anything on origin is by buying from a sellers site !! all the vendors are so empty !!! why cany EA sell stuff in game

 

[Woodsman]

Freeshards have vendor searches. And yes it can be done in a couple of days. It is Databases 101 easy.

And don't forget MyUO - that's something else a database developer could work out. There's not much of a reason for all three Mythic MMOs to have lost the web functionality like MyUO, Realm War, etc. and not have it back by now. BioWare has people doing this stuff for Star Wars, at least on the guild side.

 

[phantus]

Maybe someone can ask this (in QA5 maybe or tweeter).....

Not likely. They have never commented on it to my knowledge.

I'm totally for an in game search vendor that gives me the item immediately and not a map, rune or coordinates to the vendor. If it can't be like all the other MMO auction houses out there then don't bother.

 

[Thimotty]

I'm totally for an in game search vendor that gives me the item immediately and not a map, rune or coordinates to the vendor.

No!!! We are not discussing anything auction related. Noone like it.
We want vendor search engine! Even if it gives map or rune ot even just sextant coordinates. As long as it have good enough filters (like the sites in question) and give more/better results!

 

[Tina Small]

I have just read the License Agreement very carefully. It surely doesn't state anywhere that POSTING online informations about vendor content is sanctioned by ToS. So it is in no violation of any "contract". It is legal.
(for all the quick readers please go back to previous line and read the bold word with capital letters).
(please read http://www.uo.com/agreement.html before posting opinions of what is and what is not legal).

Lupushor, the agreement at the link you provided is from 2008. The most current License Agreement for UO is now called the "UO Terms of Service." There is a more recent copy (last updated 6/28/2011) of it on the EA site at https://help.ea.com/article/uo-terms-of-service . There are also Rules of Conduct for UO, the most recent copy (also last updated 6/28/2011) of which may be found here on the EA site: https://help.ea.com/article/ultima-online-service-rules-of-conduct .

Item 8 of the Rules of Conduct states: "With the exception of the sale of in-game items for in-game items or services, you may not market, promote or advertise anything, or make any other form of solicitation (including pyramid schemes and chain letters) through the Ultima Online service or Ultima Online web site."

It seems to me that selling in-game items for something other than in-game items or services (e.g., for RL cash) falls outside the one allowed exception stated in this item of the Rules of Conduct. Such sales would seem to necessarily incorporate "marketing through the UO service," something that is forbidden under the Rules of Conduct, as it would be utterly impossible to complete the sales without going through the UO service to collect the data to be posted externally to UO about items that are for sale and then also going through the UO service to actually transfer the sold items from seller to buyer.

EDITED TO ADD:

Please don't interpret what I said above as meaning I'm against an in-game vendor search engine. If done properly, I think something like that might be helpful. What I'm objecting to is anyone trying to make the argument that the vendor search sites that provide the option for you to buy some in-game item for RL dollars aren't breaking any of EA's rules. Clearly, the parties that set up those sites where you buy UO "stuff" for cash use UO to gather information and then use UO to go out and complete those sales that put RL dollars in their pocket. At some point, those parties must have set up at least one UO account and at least one time agreed to the Terms of Service and the Rules of Conduct and must still have at least one account running and therefore fall under the TOS provision that says you're subject to revised rules from EA after those revised rules have been posted for 30 days and you've still got your account open (irregardless of whether you actually bothered to find and read the revised rules).

And no, I have never owned a house in Luna OR ever had vendors set up in a Luna or Zento shop (other than a Zento shop on Siege, which is apparently too perilous for the plague-stricken).

 

[Thimotty]

Ehh Tina....you, like all others, assume that the site is run by a single player and like all of them you are wrong:

1) The site owner/s may even not be a player/s. They are running business and honestly i doubt very much they even have time to play online games. The people that you can contact on those sites are on payroll, the people running the scripts too, probably bunch of cheap Chinese scripters. As far as the site owner is concerned he is not breaking any laws, hell he could have never even open any EA site, nor reading any TOS. You know, TOS have power over you only if you have agreed with them. Now the scripters and the people using their accounts to perform the actual transfers are another mater, but the site itself and his owner/s are completely safe. And you know, new workers can always be hired, new accounts created....

2) You also forget the TOS defines rights and responsibilities not only for the players, but for both parties. EA is as much obligated by their own rules as the players they can enforce them upon. Even if EA goes to the court they will lose, since their own TOS clearly states that highest the punishment for any rule breaking is account termination. Nothing more. The site and his owner/s are still perfectly safe!

3) How do you even know it is scripters that gather the data? I know for a fact that we have hired on several occasions Chinese people to do some dirty jobs like transferring incompatible data for as low as $1-$2 daily. And they work like a bees. 10 of those can collect manually all the data for all shards on a daily base. 3-4 sales on the site will totally cover that expense. It is the same with the items and gold. Once i needed quick cash and called 3 guildmates to help me. For about 3 hours we have collected close to 10mil(Pinco UI really helps). Imagine 10 dedicated player that are payed to do the same how much can collect for full work day. Only the gold they farm will cover their salary several times. And it is not illegal or rulebreaking to pay someone to play and hand you over everything he collects. It is also allowed to tell them how to play and what to collect and pay them to do so. Even the people that give you the item if you buy one from a site are not breaking any rules. They simply give you an item like all the players do all the time. The may even not know you have payed for this item, they could be just told to give it to you.



The search engine should not be added in pursuit some revenge over those sites. It should be created for players care and because players want it. Which, of course, is not something we are custom to see from EA

 

[Tina Small]

Ehh Tina....you, like all others, assume that the site is run by a single player and like all of them you are wrong:

1) The site owner/s may even not be a player/s. They are running business and honestly i doubt very much they even have time to play online games. The people that you can contact on those sites are on payroll, the people running the scripts too, probably bunch of cheap Chinese scripters. As far as the site owner is concerned he is not breaking any laws, hell he could have never even open any EA site, nor reading any TOS. You know, TOS have power over you only if you have agreed with them. Now the scripters and the people using their accounts to perform the actual transfers are another mater, but the site itself and his owner/s are completely safe. And you know, new workers can always be hired, new accounts created....

2) You also forget the TOS defines rights and responsibilities not only for the players, but for both parties. EA is as much obligated by their own rules as the players they can enforce them upon. Even if EA goes to the court they will lose, since their own TOS clearly states that highest the punishment for any rule breaking is account termination. Nothing more. The site and his owner/s are still perfectly safe!

3) How do you even know it is scripters that gather the data? I know for a fact that we have hired on several occasions Chinese people to do some dirty jobs like transferring incompatible data for as low as $1-$2 daily. And they work like a bees. 10 of those can collect manually all the data for all shards on a daily base. 3-4 sales on the site will totally cover that expense. It is the same with the items and gold. Once i needed quick cash and called 3 guildmates to help me. For about 3 hours we have collected close to 10mil(Pinco UI really helps). Imagine 10 dedicated player that are payed to do the same how much can collect for full work day. Only the gold they farm will cover their salary several times. And it is not illegal or rulebreaking to pay someone to play and hand you over everything he collects. It is also allowed to tell them how to play and what to collect and pay them to do so. Even the people that give you the item if you buy one from a site are not breaking any rules. They simply give you an item like all the players do all the time. The may even not know you have payed for this item, they could be just told to give it to you.

The search engine should not be added in pursuit some revenge over those sites. It should be created for players care and because players want it. Which, of course, is not something we are custom to see from EA

Thanks for that explanation, Thimotty; it was rather enlightening to read how the owners of such sites probably rationalize ignoring a game company's ToS/RoC. Is it safe to assume that a similar rationalization process is also followed by such owners for purposes of deciding whether or not to pay any kind of taxes on the proceeds of sales made via the sites? I know it's an area where some countries have yet to provide a lot of guidance. However, for U.S.-sourced income from "virtual world" transactions, there is finally some guidance from the federal agency that is responsible for administering U.S. tax laws: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=215593,00.html . Although EA may not seem to care one way or the other today if their ToS/RoC is being broken, I would imagine government agencies around the world (including China) responsible for collecting taxes aren't quite so lax when it comes to businesses ignoring applicable rules and guidance. And perhaps the day will come when EA does actually go after these sites to shut them down and/or closes down their games that are favored by such sites because they don't want to have to get involved in doing things like providing detailed information to governments for purposes of valuing "virtual world" transactions that generate "real world" income and tax liability.

Edited to add:
Interesting read here: http://www.lawofthelevel.com/2011/1...urrency/making-sense-of-virtual-dollars/#more . (Lots more articles are out there if you find this an interesting topic. Just look for terms like "virtual world currency" or "virtual transactions." Also see this website: http://www.virtualpolicy.net/ and listen to some of the audio recordings of an interview with virtual currency expert Jon Matonis. And also see this April 2011 report from the World Bank: http://www.infodev.org/en/Publication.1056.html )

 

[Meatbread]

Tired of debating with people who think the UO TOS and it's "don't use a naughty program or we'll ban your wizard hur hur" provision carries meaningful legal force. Because it doesn't matter. If EA hired mercenaries to find out where the owners of these websites live and smash their computers with sledgehammers, new websites owned by different people would crop up two days later. The real-money MMO trade is eternal and unkillable.

 

[Thimotty]

Buahahaha @Tina Small, you really made my day hahahaha so now IRS should go after them because you assume they are not paying their taxes? Really......I'm speechless! (mostly because i laugh so hard i have left no strength to speak)
Well let me introduce you to another one of my "stupid" theories. I assume you know that US laws currently are moving in the general direction of criminalizing online slander. There are already several people convicted for slandering in facebook. Please, feel free to assume whatever you like

@Meatbread, I couldn't agree more!

 

[Colgarra]

An "in-game" search engine that listed ALL vendors could easily be the most significant addition to UO in many, many years. Before Luna/Zento you could find vendors at easily half of all homes, and now it's increasingly difficult to find anything except for what the Luna/Zento players offer (the highest end, most expensive stuff). The ability to compete in the economy is the one thing that I believe would both keep and attract new players to UO - and I can't understand why EA doesn't do this for us. Could somebody that talks to Jeff Skalski please ask him about this?

 

[aricz]

Ingame vendorsearch sounds great! I'm all in for that to happen.

 

[Woodsman]

3) How do you even know it is scripters that gather the data? I know for a fact that we have hired on several occasions Chinese people to do some dirty jobs like transferring incompatible data for as low as $1-$2 daily. And they work like a bees. 10 of those can collect manually all the data for all shards on a daily base. 3-4 sales on the site will totally cover that expense. It is the same with the items and gold.

You expect us to believe that there are a bunch of Chinese running around and doing an inventory of every vendor in Luna plus elsewhere and constantly updating the search sites?

10 Chinese can hit all of the shards and keep a search site updated on all of the items for sale in Luna and elsewhere?

Why am I not believing that? I don't care if you hire 20 Chinese, it's not physically possible to cover all of the shards, and all of the data.

 

[Vlaude]

Tired of debating with people who think the UO TOS and it's "don't use a naughty program or we'll ban your wizard hur hur" provision carries meaningful legal force. Because it doesn't matter. If EA hired mercenaries to find out where the owners of these websites live and smash their computers with sledgehammers, new websites owned by different people would crop up two days later. The real-money MMO trade is eternal and unkillable.

Some people in this community are trapped inside a bubble. The best way for EA to deal with the issue is to outdo them. A show of force is neither necessary, nor efficient.

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

Every vendor and every container is scanned for every single item using that program which cannot be named but everyone knows about regardless. Every single item is scanned and the $text $strings are recorded and stored in a database.

If 10 Chinese, 100 or 1000 people from anywhere were doing this manually then the data would contain so many typos and misspellings and errors as to be worthless.

God, go smoke some more.

 

[startle]

...... The best way for EA to deal with the issue is to outdo them. A show of force is neither necessary, nor efficient.

You, Vlaude, are exactly correct! Right on! EA can "deal" with this by listening to all of us here that are really trying our best to keep UO "afloat". I wish that, for once, someone there would - either by chance, or by gentle prodding from someone here that "has the ear" of one of them - make changes like this that will bring in new players and keep us old ones from packing it in....

Just sayin....

 

[Thimotty]

You expect us to believe that there are a bunch of Chinese running around and doing an inventory of every vendor in Luna plus elsewhere and constantly updating the search sites?

Hell, no! I don't believe it too. I'm just saying we have no right to make such accusations without any proof.

.... it's not physically possible to cover all of....

Ohh do you think so? You have never dealt with desperately poor people then.
Check this out:

Every vendor and every container is scanned for every single item using that program which cannot be named but everyone knows about regardless. Every single item is scanned and the $text $strings are recorded and stored in a database.

Yes, we all know this. BUT we cannot prove it, and so we have no rights to make such accusations. And if we do so it is as immoral as the act we are accusing them of itself! And we are not supposed to be like them, right?

If 10 Chinese, 100 or 1000 people from anywhere were doing this manually then the data would contain so many typos and misspellings and errors as to be worthless.

You think so? Check this:



And there are very very easy solutions to misspellings. Since you are using programming variables in your post i don't think it would be necessary to give you examples.

Again, i'm not saying that they are doing it. Just that it is possible. For example you do know who is making our perfect IPods, IPhones, IWhatever, right?

 

[Petra Fyde]

To attempt to bring this thread back on track, and to add my own thoughts.

I strongly suspect that the idea of an ingame vendor search has the same problem as this question from Jeff's interview.

Do you guys try to keep track of the percentages of active player base that are reds, and PvPing, and crafting, and even bank-sitting? (This is one of the questions that came from staff.)

Jeff [08:49]: The answer is that actually I can’t pull that data about our players. We don’t have those telemetry hooks in the game. A big reason for that is that when Ultima Online was built, the underlying architecture wasn’t really built with that in mind. What we need to do now, in order to get that data accurately, is we’d have to spend the time… I’d have to invest my engineers’ [time] to go back in and build that.

So, you can demand this facility all you like (and personally I manage perfectly well with out either it, or any illicit substitutes) IF I'm right and this is the problem, you're not going to get it.

 

[Tazar]

Buahahaha @Tina Small, you really made my day hahahaha so now IRS should go after them because you assume they are not paying their taxes? Really......I'm speechless! (mostly because i laugh so hard i have left no strength to speak)
Well let me introduce you to another one of my "stupid" theories. I assume you know that US laws currently are moving in the general direction of criminalizing online slander. There are already several people convicted for slandering in facebook. Please, feel free to assume whatever you like

@Meatbread, I couldn't agree more!

Well... they are def not charging the appropriate state sales tax... so there are issues awaiting them.

 

[Gameboy]

What happened to MYUO?

 

[Thimotty]

To attempt to bring this thread back on track, and to add my own thoughts.

I strongly suspect that the idea of an ingame vendor search has the same problem as this question from Jeff's interview.


So, you can demand this facility all you like (and personally I manage perfectly well with out either it, or any illicit substitutes) IF I'm right and this is the problem, you're not going to get it.

@Petra, you are correct, this is exactly the problem. They DO have the data, they just don't have a tool to pull it in proper readable format. And that is exactly what we want - similar tool to get similar data, which they already have
Any mediocre developer can do this for 2-3 days. I can do it for this time, no mater the format the data is. The bigger problem would be the graphical interface, but it is doable too.
Well we all manage perfectly well without it, you know how

Well... they are def not charging the appropriate state sales tax... so there are issues awaiting them.

@Tazar, when you buy something from a website and see "price blabla + tax blabla" it is not a tax they are charging you, that is a tax they pay to the government. They are simply being polite telling you why your price is little higher than the price advertised. Because it is only applicable if the customer is from the same state the company is registered in. Since they pay for their goods, add little % and sell it, if they don't charge you something extra this tax can eat this little profit. This is not the case with the search sites. They are not buying any stuff. So the tax would be a little % from 100% profit and they can afford not to charge something extra. As long as their profit cover their expenses several times.
I cannot say if they are actually paying their taxes, but you can't tell either. We can have doubts and believe whatever we like, but saying it out loud without proof is slander.

Trust me those sites, if properly managed, are untouchable.


As I've said search engine should not be done as some punishment/revenge on those sites. It shoud be done because players wants it, it will benefit them and therefor benefit AE. Search sites were only mentioned to contradict those players that wrongly assumed it will ruin the uo economy.

 

[Tazar]

I cannot say if they are actually paying their taxes, but you can't tell either. We can have doubts and believe whatever we like, but saying it out loud without proof is slander.

Trust me those sites, if properly managed, are untouchable.

Actually - I can tell. These records are under the "Public Records Act" and in some states the records are available online if you know where to look. None of the sites that I have checked are paying sales tax to the states as required. Nice try though...

And under the laws in some states, they are required to disclose the tax amount - so it is not hidden in the total price.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

Wouldn't an in-hose run search require an updating complete list of all housing, to be fair and available to all? So they make their own little droid to go around, no big deal? Everything done server side impacts every player on that server, including people that have no interest in the vendoring system. But we already know they Don't have a list of housing... think current house decay fiasco, think Tmaps marked under housing. Can't submit your shop either, as many company owned houses were submitted, I believe still standing? So does anyone really believe the Devs are gonna get right on this, even 'soon'? The main UO game website, UO web sales sites, MyUO, all outdated, broken, missing elements, I wouldn't hold my breath. I do think the more it's thrown in their face, the more drastic the fix, maybe even instituting a no-drop system, where gold/many items go straight in/out of your bank only, just saying be careful what you wish for.

 

[Woodsman]

What happened to MYUO?

The same thing that happened to the house stuff that used to be available on the Camelot website and the Realm War stuff that used to be on the Warhammer website. Yanked for security reasons. Sony and a few other companies generated a lot of heat for themselves and the industry when they got hacked. Sony had the highest profile, but there were companies getting compromised before and after that.

My guess: At some point, somebody in EA realized how much hell they would catch if something similar happened, and EA did an audit of all of their games and gaming websites. EA found that the Mythic games had websites accessing in-game data, but nobody who was in charge of that functionality since the people responsible for implementing that functionality had long ago been laid off by EA when they were whittling away customer relations to save money.

So rather than hire somebody who was in charge of that functionality and who could make quick fixes if something went wrong, being EA, they just yanked it.

Before anybody says that the data might not have compromised user profiles or information and so there was no reason for it to be yanked, I doubt that the audit people would care. They were probably surveying dozens, if not 100s of games and EA websites. What they cared about is that there were websites accessing in-game data and nobody in charge of that. On their virtual clipboard, they weren't going to write "it's only data about characters, guilds, houses, etc", they were just going to check off "website accessing in-game data" and write "no actual website developer responsible" because the Mythic MMOs do not have any actual website developers left. Those were all laid off in 2009 when Warhammer failed spectacularly. Even then I bet it had been years since anybody had really touched the UO or Camelot code.

 

[Theo_GL]

Wouldn't an in-hose run search require an updating complete list of all housing, to be fair and available to all? So they make their own little droid to go around, no big deal? Everything done server side impacts every player on that server, including people that have no interest in the vendoring system. But we already know they Don't have a list of housing... think current house decay fiasco, think Tmaps marked under housing. Can't submit your shop either, as many company owned houses were submitted, I believe still standing? So does anyone really believe the Devs are gonna get right on this, even 'soon'? The main UO game website, UO web sales sites, MyUO, all outdated, broken, missing elements, I wouldn't hold my breath. I do think the more it's thrown in their face, the more drastic the fix, maybe even instituting a no-drop system, where gold/many items go straight in/out of your bank only, just saying be careful what you wish for.

If EA/Mythic ran the vendor search system they wouldn't need a bot. They have all the vendor data stored somewhere. It would just mean stuffing it in a data warehouse with some simple reporting on top of it. Honestly I could through this together inside of a week. It would KILL all other sites because EA's information would be realtime wheras the current sites need scripting to physicall go around and gather all the information since they do not have access to the game's data stores.

They could also solve the housing issues in an afternoon if anyone there had any programming talent at all. No reason they could not do a better job of synching up existing houses with existing accounts. This is super simple work if you have access to both data stores as EA does. Give me access and I use the tools my company sells to manage data and have this solved in a day. Maybe by lunch if I get an early start.

 

[HD2300]

If EA/Mythic ran the vendor search system they wouldn't need a bot. They have all the vendor data stored somewhere. It would just mean stuffing it in a data warehouse with some simple reporting on top of it. Honestly I could through this together inside of a week. It would KILL all other sites because EA's information would be realtime wheras the current sites need scripting to physicall go around and gather all the information since they do not have access to the game's data stores.

They could also solve the housing issues in an afternoon if anyone there had any programming talent at all. No reason they could not do a better job of synching up existing houses with existing accounts. This is super simple work if you have access to both data stores as EA does. Give me access and I use the tools my company sells to manage data and have this solved in a day. Maybe by lunch if I get an early start.

What you have posted is 100% correct. fyi the data is in Oracle. I'm guessing they are working on some Ultima franchise product, and a couple of days a month they work on UO.

 

[Nimuaq]

While I don't like these types of sites, I still have to post this: for the discussion about the search sites that are also selling in-game items, the only important thing here is the law and the regulations concerning the virtual property. If I'm not mistaken, there is currently no regulation for virtual property in the US or any other country in that manner. This means that you use the terms "legal" or "illegal" according to EULA, but courts can see these EULAs unconscionable, as in Bragg v. Linden Lab.:

"Bragg argued that by closing his account, Linden Lab also dissolved his virtual assets, which he valued at between US$4,000 and US$6,000. (...) The Court also denied Linden Lab’s motion to compel arbitration, finding that the Terms of Service represented an adhesion contract that was unjustly biased towards Linden Lab. (...)
On October 4, 2007, Linden Lab announced that it reached a confidential settlement with Bragg:"The parties agree that there were unfortunate disagreements and miscommunications regarding the conduct and behavior by both sides and are pleased to report that Mr. Bragg's "Marc Woebegone" account, privileges and responsibilities to the Second Life community have been restored."

The following papers might help us to understand why these types of discussions occur when it comes to virtual property rights:

Getting to Conscionable: Negotiating Virtual Worlds' End User License Agreements without Getting Externally Regulated
Brendan James Gilbert
"Additionally, once standards exist, participants and courts have an easier way to view the virtual world than through the byzantine provisions of the EULA. Standards provide a basis for objective comparison of potential virtual worlds to participate in, and a basis for the development of common law methods of adjudicating virtual world disputes. The transaction costs to both participants and courts in interpreting virtual worlds are reduced from standardization."

WHO OWNS VIRTUAL ITEMS
Leah Shen
"The market for virtual items is a large, thriving market with little legal protection. The lack of this protection allows for cheaters and scammers to thrive amongst the online community, and leads to tragic circumstances."

DEFINING AND ADDRESSING VIRTUAL PROPERTY IN INTERNATIONAL TREATIES
Jennifer Z. Gong
"Current international treaties lack a coherent definition of what constitutes “virtual property” online, and are not ready to face the growing legal needs of a rapidly expanding online population."

Note: message previously posted here

 

[Woodsman]

They could also solve the housing issues in an afternoon if anyone there had any programming talent at all. No reason they could not do a better job of synching up existing houses with existing accounts. This is super simple work if you have access to both data stores as EA does.

I think they could have solved it quite easily over the years if they had wanted to. There are tons of database programmers within EA and BioWare. I've seen plenty of job listings for them over the past year.

I'm going to put the tinfoil helm on and say they have no incentive to fix the bugged houses. If every non-IDOC house you saw was either tied to an active account or was on a 90-day timer, you could put together a pretty clear picture of UO's subscriptions over a 90 day period.

There is no other reason not to. Dropping all of the bugged houses would make a lot of existing players happy.

 

[startle]

If EA/Mythic ran the vendor search system they wouldn't need a bot. They have all the vendor data stored somewhere...

Thank you, Theo.... That says it all....

But allow me to provide a visual for that:

Recall to Luna​

Run to the nearest vendor​

Double-click on him/her​

Wala​

You can see what's in his pak!​

If they can give this information to us in-game whenever we ask for it, then could someone please explain to me why the f**k they can not give it to us in a once-a-freekin-day at maintenance update?

Damn people, I barely held my head above water for Basic and Pascal but I really believe that I could accomplish what we're asking in a freekin week. (And most of that time would be for testing/verification.)

But then, just freekin sayin.....

 

[Petra Fyde]

We already know that resources are finite and the graphic update for EC has been put back because of this. Which other part of current development would you like abandoned in order to cater for your demands?
I have never, and will not, use the illicit sites. I've never even visited them, but I can usually find what I need. I simply ask in general chat 'does anyone know of a vendor selling ... '

 

[lupushor]

I have never, and will not, use the illicit sites. I've never even visited them, but I can usually find what I need. I simply ask in general chat 'does anyone know of a vendor selling ... '

Ooopsie.

And you honestly think the player that will answer will actually guide you from his own experience? Or will he alt-tab to browser, write "......" item in search and then tell you "hey, go look at vendor 27 at luna east green house"? Just something to sleep on it.....

 

[Petra Fyde]

Yes, actually, because so far it's always been their own vendor I've been shown.

 

[startle]

We already know that resources are finite and the graphic update for EC has been put back because of this. Which other part of current development would you like abandoned in order to cater for your demands?

Hi Petra... Over the years I have read hundreds of your posts and I must say that 95% of the time I agree with your position. However, this is not one of those times. I do completely understand that resources are "finite" as you state and, as such, they must prioritize the same as anyone else. But I take issue with your insinuation that they would have to "abandon" some major development plans in order to implement a vendor search system - to cater to "my demands" (as you put it). I'm not sure how much programming experience you have, and I'm certainly not suggesting that I'm the world's greatest programmer by any means, but I do have sufficient exposure to programming to realize that the following is true:

Every "player-owned" vendor has a specific "code" assigned to him/her.
Associated with that specific code are all the items that the vendor currently has on him/her.
These vendors and their associated inventories are ALREADY accounted for in the current code and updated every time you drop something on the vendor or someone buys something from him/her.
Every day when "maintenance" happens the current "state" of all the vendors is frozen in place since the shard is "down".
Adding the code required to LIST these vendors and their inventories would be TRIVIAL. It would NOT demand some HUGE investment of manpower to implement, and this is where we disagree. Adding a search system is NOT a great coding demand and that's just plain programming fact.

I have never, and will not, use the illicit sites. I've never even visited them, but I can usually find what I need. I simply ask in general chat 'does anyone know of a vendor selling ... '

And this suggestion, that we should all just "ask in general chat" for whatever we need is - sorry Petra - just plain ludacris. It inherently assumes that:

1 - Whoever has what we need is currently online.​

2 - That person(s) has "general chat" up and running. (I suggest to you that most players do NOT run "general chat" anyway).​

3 - That person(s) actually "sees" your request (not busy doing other things).​

4 - That person(s) actually knows that the item is still on his/her vendor.​

5 - That person(s) has their vendor coords on hand to list.​

This is NOT a substitute for a Sosaria-wide vendor search listing, by ANY stretch of the imagination.

Just sayin....

 

[Colgarra]

Hi Petra... Over the years I have read hundreds of your posts and I must say that 95% of the time I agree with your position. However, this is not one of those times. I do completely understand that resources are "finite" as you state and, as such, they must prioritize the same as anyone else. But I take issue with your insinuation that they would have to "abandon" some major development plans in order to implement a vendor search system - to cater to "my demands" (as you put it). I'm not sure how much programming experience you have, and I'm certainly not suggesting that I'm the world's greatest programmer by any means, but I do have sufficient exposure to programming to realize that the following is true:

Every "player-owned" vendor has a specific "code" assigned to him/her.
Associated with that specific code are all the items that the vendor currently has on him/her.
These vendors and their associated inventories are ALREADY accounted for in the current code and updated every time you drop something on the vendor or someone buys something from him/her.
Every day when "maintenance" happens the current "state" of all the vendors is frozen in place since the shard is "down".
Adding the code required to LIST these vendors and their inventories would be TRIVIAL. It would NOT demand some HUGE investment of manpower to implement, and this is where we disagree. Adding a search system is NOT a great coding demand and that's just plain programming fact.



And this suggestion, that we should all just "ask in general chat" for whatever we need is - sorry Petra - just plain ludacris. It inherently assumes that:

1 - Whoever has what we need is currently online.​

2 - That person(s) has "general chat" up and running. (I suggest to you that most players do NOT run "general chat" anyway).​

3 - That person(s) actually "sees" your request (not busy doing other things).​

4 - That person(s) actually knows that the item is still on his/her vendor.​

5 - That person(s) has their vendor coords on hand to list.​

This is NOT a substitute for a Sosaria-wide vendor search listing, by ANY stretch of the imagination.

Just sayin....

What she said: ^^^^

 

[HD2300]

Adding the code required to LIST these vendors and their inventories would be TRIVIAL. It would NOT demand some HUGE investment of manpower to implement, and this is where we disagree. Adding a search system is NOT a great coding demand and that's just plain programming fact...

This. Many people here have confirmed that this is easy and would be quick to do. And I also agree, artwork is not programming.

Even uo.stratics has a search on its homepage at
UO Stratics *New* -> UO Stratics - Hunter's Guide - Search

 

[Thimotty]

Hmm i think i've changed my mind. There could be good reasons to be against implementation of such tool

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Can't say that I've changed my mind. At the VERY LEAST there should be a way to connect all player vendors to a centralized accessible database for a vendor search.

I've even read the best version of such a thing to date as an auction house system for another game that is completely internal, moderated, and allows for sales in both ingame currency as well as real life currency. This is a yet unreleased game that most here will be picking up and put out by a company that HAS been very anti-RMT sales. They're finally coming around to accepting it as a legitimate part of the online gaming system.

I'm not expecting UO to follow suit exactly, however the current system needs to be improved.

Allow players to link their vendor(s) into the central database and have that access be through the bulletin board item. Bulletin boards should return to NPC town structures as a read-only interface for the searchable database that will show the item(s) searched, price, and vendor on which they are located (facet, nearest town, and coordinates). Bulletin boards in player houses would be used to connect a vendor to the system by the owner as well as having the same interface as town-based bulletin boards. A person searching for an item would still have to travel to the vendor itself to buy the item, but at least they would have a decent method of searching for that item.

Otherwise, people will continue to frequent search sites whether they are legal or no or whether people like them or no.

 

[startle]

...

Can't say that I've changed my mind. At the VERY LEAST there should be a way to connect all player vendors to a centralized accessible database for a vendor search.... A person searching for an item would still have to travel to the vendor itself to buy the item, but at least they would have a decent method of searching for that item.

Otherwise, people will continue to frequent search sites whether they are legal or no or whether people like them or no.

Yes. Imagine your vendor's wares being listed for all shard players to see - with map coords - so that all are free to go and shop for whatever you're selling.

That would be great!

 

[Thimotty]

If they do search for all shards (unlikely) - yes it will be great.
If it is separated for each shard - i'm against

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

If they do search for all shards (unlikely) - yes it will be great.
If it is separated for each shard - i'm against

If it's ingame, it would have to be shard specific (i.e. if I'm logged into LS, I see LS items on LS vendors).
If it's a webpage, then it would operate like the third party search sites now do where you can search by shard/item across all shards.

 

[Thimotty]

One thing is certain - if they are ever going to do something like that it should be better than search sites, or it will fail!

 

[Demonous]

Ugh... not this again.

No, it's not overdue and should never be in game. The illegal ones should be shut down!!

id rather not spend hours searching for something on a vendor in luna when it can take mere seconds, thanks !

 

[startle]

...



If it's ingame, it would have to be shard specific (i.e. if I'm logged into LS, I see LS items on LS vendors).
If it's a webpage, then it would operate like the third party search sites now do where you can search by shard/item across all shards.

You're exactly right, Dermott. It would be MUCH easier to implement "outside" the game, coding-wise (so let's not ask for too much here please). Having it as a webpage makes the most sense for sure.... And, once again, this is NOT rocket science guys...

Just sayin.......

 

[Colgarra]

How can we go about getting a Dev to respond to these excellent ideas?

 

[Haddy G]

To attempt to bring this thread back on track, and to add my own thoughts.

I strongly suspect that the idea of an ingame vendor search has the same problem as this question from Jeff's interview.

Do you guys try to keep track of the percentages of active player base that are reds, and PvPing, and crafting, and even bank-sitting? (This is one of the questions that came from staff.)

Jeff [08:49]: The answer is that actually I can’t pull that data about our players. We don’t have those telemetry hooks in the game. A big reason for that is that when Ultima Online was built, the underlying architecture wasn’t really built with that in mind. What we need to do now, in order to get that data accurately, is we’d have to spend the time… I’d have to invest my engineers’ [time] to go back in and build that.

So, you can demand this facility all you like (and personally I manage perfectly well with out either it, or any illicit substitutes) IF I'm right and this is the problem, you're not going to get it.

You are so correct. This fact alone goes beyond just a search engine for vendors. This applies to everything in this game. How do they know if a lot of people pvp, pvm, craft, do champs, attend EM events, etc... I now understand why when something is done that really makes no sense, they just don't have hard data on what people do in this game. If I was the producer I would spend the funds to get something in place to collect data.

To the thread, the Chinese are masters at copying just about anything. If you ever travel outside the U.S. you will know what I am talking about.

 

[Redxpanda]

Looks like you are about to get your wish. The site mentioned earlier is on a quest to add every player vendor in the game to their DB. Anything EA does after that will be too little, too late.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

some of this reminds me of getting the whiter than bod-reward white cloth from that quest, after a Ton of people exploited and gave/sold the cloth, they made it legal, just corrected the bug. Maybe if enough use the site, it'll become legal? Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how many house locations end up in their database - I think they should list totals.

 

[Woodsman]

some of this reminds me of getting the whiter than bod-reward white cloth from that quest, after a Ton of people exploited and gave/sold the cloth, they made it legal, just corrected the bug. Maybe if enough use the site, it'll become legal? Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how many house locations end up in their database - I think they should list totals.

If they make scripting legal.....

Enough people already do it knowing there is an ultra-tiny chance of being banned.

But allowing the scripters to do so legally....that is way beyond making a certain type of cloth legit.

I know Jeff said he wanted to provide a place for the scripters, but I don't see him talking about something like this. You'd have all of the game sites talking about how EA/BioWare are allowing scripting in an MMO.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

If they make scripting legal.....

To an extent they did, seeing grinds they've created, particularly in crafting, with the addition of make max (n). But yeah, I know the scripts you're talking about, that's why i x'd thru "legal", the kind that only serves to cheapen the game, like an open festering wound. I feel the 'site' aids in many ways, provided it does no filtering, i can see competitiveness and an overall stability, a stability that can be documented and trended, not just in Luna,not just (w. continued growth) shard wide, but across all of Sosaria itself. While the methodology is arguable... An evil leprechaun dropping it's gold all over the lands, is it really worth killing?

Do I see EA condoning such a site? simply, they can't. Rules , while temperable, all have a finite bending point. Next would be wanting RMT and ebay.
Do I see EA making their own site? not any time soon, their plate is full enough, probably several years worth with current production plans

Do I see EA banning? No. While some tumors need severing, some are benign. I think the name was Miner?, rumored with 50 scripted accounts, comes to mind where they all came to an 'agreement' of sorts. If and when they think it's that much of a problem, they'll act in their own best interest, meaning income and the well-being of community.