Okay, so Dupre wants to bring Danica to justice for what she did to Reddish. However, since Dupre follows the path of Honour (Truth & Courage), that would mean he's missing Love (as such, Compassion), therefore rendering his idea of Justice blind and tyrannical?It is also interesting to note that in modern political theory as well as classical ancient political theory, the idea of justice is highly subjective. It is amazingly difficult to 'pin down' just what justice is. Its one of those 'you know it if you see it' type things and has never been totally quantified with law. The very idea that justice is blind is a fallacy. Justice should never be blind, law without compassion is tyranny.
I think this showed up in the official EM Fiction too: The Awakening - Act 5, Part 2 | Mythic Entertainment | Ultima OnlineNothing is less worthy of honor than an old man who has no other evidence of having lived long except his age
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca on Honor
This is from Dupre's legend:...He’d left too many men, elves, and gargoyles dead in the final struggle to rid them of the foul beast Exodus…and despite Sacrifice being a virtue, he wondered if it hadn’t taken more than its share this time. And why did it seem that those younger, faster, and stronger than he were so oft chosen while Sacrifice had merely passed him by all these years? Or maybe these others in some way had acted as a shield for him, preserving his existence by purchasing it with their own. Or perhaps his vow of Honor to defeat Minax was all that held Sacrifice at bay. He shook his head as he passed through the gates of the city of Honor, but he couldn’t shake off his uncertainty. The events at the moongate had only served to reinforce his unsteadiness; He’d intended to immediately return to Felucca and his hunt for Minax, but if the moongates were corrupted in such a way, could it possibly be an infection like the gargoyles were even now still facing in Ter Mur? And if so, would it spread to the rest of Gilforn’s gates, or even to those temporary ones conjured by so many mages of the realm? Give me a beast, a monster, a man who I can fight with a sword and shield, and I’ll cause them to quake, he thought…but I have no recourse against an enemy I can’t face... He looked over the copy of the journal he’d found…and he wondered if he hadn’t been wrong about the man who had once so often held court with his Lord.
...It was times like these, where even in victory he felt defeated, that he sought refuge in his dedication to Honor and everything it encompassed. So long as he kept true to his Honor, he would never lose his path.
Dupre has broken his own rule by coming back to destroy Exodus. Yes, he was destined to help defeat Exodus, but there was little Honor in it.“You have been told by your Captain that Lord British is a tyrant. Well then, it is no dishonor to take up arms against tyranny, if that is truly what you believe. However, your people do not extract oaths of fealty as mine do, and I have often heard your Captain say that you follow him at the call of your reason and of your own sense of what is right, which is the Gargoyle way. Now your hearts and minds have moved you to ask whether the fight today is Honorable. Perhaps the question itself is its own answer.”
Specifically Addie. Does anyone have more information on Addie's whereabouts when Danica teamed up with her sister, my guess is, the fiction before Amandine Goes Shopping or the event log?But Danica looked at him with the same knowledge in her eyes that is usually seen around Adamu.
That knowledge is what we lack.
Sir Hethe Idem. He showed up once before when we were killing bears (Also what about Hethe, the creepy knight that seemed to know Dupre? We never really got to talk to him. I mean without wanting to string him up
After wiping out the raiders, this is the speech he gave us:The Hall of the Silver Serpent was buzzing with activity. The Knights had gathered at the request of Lady Amandine and were awaiting her presence when an unknown voice called out from the back of the Hall.
“The wolves of Britannia, assembled to hunt a bear…”
Our eyes turned to regard the stranger, and, as he strode swiftly across the Hall, he began to tell us of when he had killed his first bear. Having won the bear in a tournament, he had set it free so he could hunt and kill it. One could see the twisted glee in his eyes as he recounted the joy of seeing a predator’s eyes turn to eyes of fear. The topic abruptly changed as the man asked about Lady Amandine, telling us, with a hint of sarcasm, that it was “a pity her calling was to lead Knights….Instead of….Other things.” The man finally introduced himself as Sir Hethe Idem, from a new Order of Knights known as the Poor Fellowship of the Chamber of Virtue. He spoke of how this Fellowship was dedicated to maintaining unity in the realm, that it was their duty to lead the rest. When asked about the abduction of Yusef Ad-Din and Theresa, he denied having anything to do with it, stating that he would never resort to a tactic such as kidnapping. He then told us that the Fellowship is based in the Chamber of Virtue, and if we wished to experience true unity, worth and trust, then we may seek them out. “You will be hearing from us again… Good luck… Hunting bears…” With that last comment he departed.
Is the Ouroboros related to the Fellowship?As night began to creep up around us, some of the Knights returned to the House of Virtues, only to find Sir Idem, cheerfully wiping blood of his halberd. He gave us one last speech before departing for the final time that night.
“And now, I hope you all see. What happens when there is pure freedom but no order? When there is no fear to keep the people in line. The Virtues are nice. They bind us, and by us I do not mean all the people but US, the nobility, the elite, together. But, for the peasants, for the masses, the Virtues are useless. If they think they have power over themselves, they will use it. We need to remind them just how powerless they are. Perhaps one day you will all be worthy to join the Fellowship… For now, the Crux Ansata will have to do for you…”
Good call. It was a contingency plan, Dupre said this after it was over. Dupre didn't break the honor gate, Exodus broke the Honor gate, and in a sense, Dupre broke in the process? When Adamu said that if Honor broke so does the world, this means he stated it from a prophetic position (ie, Honor is the first in a long-chain of events), instead of stating this from a keystone position (honor is the most important). Dupre, on the other hand, believes that Honor is the most important.Hmm.... Well here is my thought on the Honor gate situation. All the Virtue gates are connected, all holding power, all of them is our transportation between shrines. When one is broken, the connection is weakened. Also, Honor Shrine was the closest shrine, or most popular, shrine near Exodus. He knew we had to get out of there fast so he planted another trap just incase he fell. He broke the Honor gate to cause unbalance in the other Shrines.
Janna was a druid (like a judge). She went around judging folks. When a town at war captured a Goblin King and wanted to kill it, she said go for it and it'd be lawful death. But they begged for a trial to mock the king, and the court found the goblin to be innocent of any wrong doing (because war against tyranny was and is a prescribed virtue, despite the side one is on). After Janna released the Goblin, the Goblin attacked her. She then killed it lawfully. Amandine, is being held to the King's Law. But we know that virtue, when codified into law, is perverse (Blackthorn). Are we trying her according to law, or to virtue? If we try her by law, then she is dead. If we try her by virtue, then she can live.“There will be no lynchings here!” the Druid proclaimed. “I gave you a choice yesterday to put this creature to death lawfully, but you would have your show-trial, and so you submitted it to Justice. Now it belongs to Justice indeed, and if it is in any wise harmed in contravention of my word, the full weight of the law shall fall upon this place. Worse, the blessings of Virtue shall be forfeited.”
Agreed, Hethe is an odd one. Just the dichotomy is what struck me.I doubt Danica has the same morals as Hethe... or at least I have not seen that sort of demeanor coming from her now or prior to her sisters ordeal
They tend to make it even harder to focus... You just kinda find yourself turning around to watch them instead of focusing on the task at hand. Of course I got a cute pic that I otherwise would have missed if I hadn't turned around!Agree Faeryl-wish I had one of your puppies to break up the monotony of reserching
Agreed, and completley fair. Most if not all the lore is new to me, I'm forgetting not everything is connected.Please Ovenbird ... although I enjoy the history, but i am getting fustrated. Lady Danica is innocent.
Agree Faeryl-wish I had one of your puppies to break up the monotony of reserching
Bennu, If we are ever able to log in nows the time for some kind of interaction in game. I feel like we are beating a dead horse here?
This is some of the best logic so far in these two threads... except for that last part.Good call. It was a contingency plan, Dupre said this after it was over. Dupre didn't break the honor gate, Exodus broke the Honor gate, and in a sense, Dupre broke in the process? When Adamu said that if Honor broke so does the world, this means he stated it from a prophetic position (ie, Honor is the first in a long-chain of events), instead of stating this from a keystone position (honor is the most important). Dupre, on the other hand, believes that Honor is the most important.
More on Amandine's trial, from the story of Janna:
Janna was a druid (like a judge). She went around judging folks. When a town at war captured a Goblin King and wanted to kill it, she said go for it and it'd be lawful death. But they begged for a trial to mock the king, and the court found the goblin to be innocent of any wrong doing (because war against tyranny was and is a prescribed virtue, despite the side one is on). After Janna released the Goblin, the Goblin attacked her. She then killed it lawfully. Amandine, is being held to the King's Law. But we know that virtue, when codified into law, is perverse (Blackthorn). Are we trying her according to law, or to virtue? If we try her by law, then she is dead. If we try her by virtue, then she can live.
Today is my birthday, Im busy with family stuff tonight.Bennu, If we are ever able to log in nows the time for some kind of interaction in game. I feel like we are beating a dead horse here?
Happy Birthday!Today is my birthday, Im busy with family stuff tonight.
Happy birthday!Today is my birthday, Im busy with family stuff tonight.
But.
We will get some more info and something done this week. I need to take a look at the live arc stuff to make sure I haven't missed a requirement for the week or anything.
This is some of the best logic so far in these two threads... except for that last part.
If *I* were the defense I would be arguing the case as was stated in the prior thread, that murder is not murder when committed by a military commander in a land under martial law. It *MAY* have been immoral (Can it be Just and Immoral at the same time... ah ha!?) but was it illegal? THIS is the question that Dupre wants the answer to. "Illegal? Immoral? Unjust?"
Dupre is loved by the people, and as such wouldn't side with the 'nobility' without question. An act such as that committed by Danica in Britain on the night in question would/has riled up the people who would hold it up as an example of tyranny and hold danica as a tyrant...
It is for these reasons we need a trial, more to answer the question and satisfy the people than to punish.
Is Caer a player? In this case, the fault would come from Amandine losing her love, or Dupre not having any to begin within.Faeryl- I found those books in Caer Dalbins house-it has these answers-
In what ways does Justice and Honor clash?:
Justice and honor clash when there is no love present (this came from the tomb of love quest)
So did British erect Virtue shrines to help prevent the shards from crumbling further? Or did he do it to promote unity, so that when the shards were combined again, people's lives would be preserved?Lord British knew this and was put to task to errect shrines of the virtues, Lord Blackthorn overheard this conversation and he created the Chaos shrine and the anti virtues
I found this video:If you want excellent examples of how the Virtues can conflict without one side being clearly correct, you may want to try and dig up the tarot card game that began Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar..
We can see Justice as being outside, or associated but separated from the King's Law, and how Honor keeps one in touch with the law. To apply this to the trial, Amandine is closely associated (but not tied) to the law, and is capable of acting in association of the law, whereas Dupre is the one actually trying to uphold the law.Justice vs. Honor is the second choice: Thou hast sworn to do they lord's bidding in all. He covets a piece of land and orders the owners removed. Dost thou A) serve Justice refusing to act, thus being disgraced, or B) Honor thine path and unfairly evict the landowner?
Happy belated Birthday.Today is my birthday, Im busy with family stuff tonight.
Yes.Is Caer a player?
We do need to shift blame. If we blame it on the Ouroboros murders of her friends then she is in conflict of interest to her duties as head of the Guard. I think we need to prove that the two are tied, Nardello terrorism and the Ouroboros plot, and that Amandine, while maybe a bit more brutal, wasn't acting selfishly out of anger when she killed Reddish. We have the legal justification for the killing of Nardello (Martial Law) down pretty tight.The defense needs to put the blame somewhere else. Like a child to take the attention off their boo boo, so you get out a distraction.
This happened the day“If you know where she is, tell me, and I will serve the virtue of Compassion over Justice today. If you don’t, then I hope your last words are worth it.”
The woman glared daggers at him, a bloody mouthed smile playing across her lips that was devoid of anything resembling warmth as she coughed out her answer. “She’s beyond your reach, Knight-Errant. And she’s beyond your power too. Your little kingdom is crumbling at the seams and we’ll be there to pick up the pieces when…”
Both of those things. It's anarchistic to leave symbols of an order up to chance. The peppers were a 'taste' of whats to come?I am still thinking Nardello was not the only killing the Ourboros family line-anyone could have planted the peppers to make us think it was him-remember the clues (proof) were eaten-roflmao
Why make them eatable?- why leave the rings? because someone does not think they are important or not needed any longer
As for not knowing about other murders, Tthat's true we don't, but as they're people of importance I would think we'd hear about it.Well we actually do not know how far back this goes. I mean how far back Nobles were being killed due to being in an Ouroboros line
And I did say that in an earlier post-What Dupre did was the same thing Danica did-There was No lord Dupre when Reddish was questioned and ultimately died.
Peppers-you dont think they are a clue too? Was some Nobles family in the Produce market?
No difference if Nardello was set up or not-I was going to make sure he wasn't going to be around any longer-due to his first attack on us- when I tell you 30 mins to get back to my original body-that was maddening
1. I assume he was actually looking for Minax, based on a line in part 2 of Act V:I'll stop doing this soon, I swear, but this is important. From Dupre's return (
UO Stratics *New* | The Awakening – Act IV Part 2), right as he takes the upper hand against the woman he is fight:
So 1) who is he looking for? Tresha?
2) This is so close to what Amandine did, we should think about it for the case. Amandine could have done the same exact thing, she was already aware of Nardello's bands whereabouts.
2. Yes, there do seem to be some parallels between the two.He shook his head as he passed through the gates of the city of Honor, but he couldn’t shake off his uncertainty. The events at the moongate had only served to reinforce his unsteadiness; He’d intended to immediately return to Felucca and his hunt for Minax, but if the moongates were corrupted in such a way, could it possibly be an infection like the gargoyles were even now still facing in Ter Mur?
Frankly, unless I'm given more than just theories and speculation, I'm going to continue to assume that Nardello committed all the murders. Especially since he confessed to it before he died. Also, there's currently no evidence to point to anyone else's possible involvement either. It seems like you guys are trying to make an issue where there is none instead of focusing on those that require our attention now...I am still thinking Nardello was not the only killing the Ourboros family line-anyone could have planted the peppers to make us think it was him-remember the clues (proof) were eaten-roflmao
Why make them eatable?- why leave the rings? because someone does not think they are important or not needed any longer
I know, I know, but. Forgive if these has been mentioned.1. I assume he was actually looking for Minax, based on a line in part 2 of Act V.
I can see Nardelo+Tresha turning into a Minax+Mondain."The climax was the devastation of 2111, Minax's greatest triumph, when ancient civilizations born of love and beauty, wisdom and reason, turned on one another in hatred and destroyed most of the very earth that had nurtured them. If it were not for the time doors, we would not be here now. Only the ability to move in time enabled any living thing to survive..." -- from the writings of Lord British
I completely forgot I even wrote that... Hah.Another possible name for our Ourboros list. I read in Crux Ansata Report 9/30/11 | Stratics Forums that Amandine was born to Tristan and Eleanor Adhara, and she was a twin with Charlotte. There's still a first-born with twins (I'm an identical first-born twin myself) but for the sake of the story this might not be recognized.
Perhaps I went to literal with it, but the line "The tome spoke of how a girl would be born, the darker half of a pair" made me think of it. I assumed if Danica and Charlotte had an age gap between them it might have played into the story. But then, there I go assuming again haha.I completely forgot I even wrote that... Hah.
Just curious though, where did you hear/read that they were twins? I know that they were obviously sisters, but I don't remember anything about twins.
Definitely impressive. I never caught onto that back when I first saw it! Then again, I freely admit that subtlety has never really been a strong point for me. I prefer being blunt.OvenBird, I am impressed with your dramatic ability to grasp onto my subtlety and get information out of posts that have long since been forgotten
Charlotte and Danica were indeed twins, and that is quite possibly the only time I mentioned it.
Thanks guys! Now here's where I muddy the waters. In that write-up it says the Crux had to visit a number of folks: Selcius the Astronomer, Claudia's cave, Flint and Christine, Cromwell, and the Serpent's Cross. Since two of those on the list have rings, any chance Selcius or Flint and Christine have one?Charlotte and Danica were indeed twins, and that is quite possibly the only time I mentioned it.
Well, Selcius has never been anything other than an oracle to talk to during certain missions and such, and I believe Flint and Christine were players, so I don't think any of them would have rings.Thanks guys! Now here's where I muddy the waters. In that write-up it says the Crux had to visit a number of folks: Selcius the Astronomer, Claudia's cave, Flint and Christine, Cromwell, and the Serpent's Cross. Since two of those on the list have rings, any chance Selcius or Flint and Christine have one?
Worth a shot. Here's something just for fun: From last November:Well, Selcius has never been anything other than an oracle...
Maybe not Luna, but...I really should have done a Guy Fawkes day event today... Maybe next year.
a plot to blow up Luna... hmmm.
"More Cow Bell!"