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I'll never forget when UO first came out

M

Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
The specific scenario specified you lost everything, as the person would guard your body. So it would just be a matter of picking another GM suit and go off again, no attempt at actually getting your body or working to get it back.
Did you even read what I posted? If a red guild showed up and killed you and your friends, you weren't getting your stuff back if you died like that. Did you even play back then?

I have had more fun and challenge in todays UO than I ever had back in the 90s UO. Despite the newness of it all back then. It sounds like you guys love the idea of the old UO because you measure yourself in the misery of others, this is compounded by the fact that none of you want to play the old fashion without insurance and blessed items.
And it sounds to me like you prefer a game with zero risk, zero challenge, and like hoarding stuff.
 

Lord Chaos

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Did you even read what I posted? If a red guild showed up and killed you and your friends, you weren't getting your stuff back if you died like that. Did you even play back then?
Thats what I wrote...do you have problems reading?

And it sounds to me like you prefer a game with zero risk, zero challenge, and like hoarding stuff.
There's more risk and challenge (and fun) today, than there were in the beginning.
 

HD2300

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Classic aint going to happen cause UO would die. It would be worse than KR.

They were pissing themselves when Darkfall came out that UO would lose 10% of accounts, now they would be crapping their pants that PvE games EQ2 and LOTRO are going F2P (Cataclysm). At Town Hall they are going to announce F2P and the next PVE expansion.
 
E

Evlar

Guest
Obviously you didn't care to answer the questions I asked HD2300.

You claim to know so much, yet fail to back-up any of your "factual" comments.

Really, enough hot air to fill all of these...



I really do hope that any intention of going F2P and offering yet more expansions help prevent declining subscriptions or offers growth. Honestly, I do.

The problem is, compared to those (and other games), UO doesn't appeal enough graphically for starters. Also the steep learning curve and time to get established, from a new player perspective. Yes, it's got more meat to it than those other games, but that simply isn't enough these days, certainly compared to other MMORPG genre games. I'm not saying that new players should get everything on a plate. A quality game, is about the journey or route to the "end game", not the "end game" itself. There lies the problem with item-centric games or level based "grinders". To those with a short attention span, or more "casual" players, what is there to keep them? Sure, more expansions help for a little while. It does make me wonder about the core quality of a game, if it becomes entirely reliant on expansions to maintain subscriptions.

Aside from either a complete graphical overhaul, perhaps something along the lines of the IRIS project (which retained much of the "character" of UO), or a completely new game from the ground up (which the majority of current UO players probably wouldn't like anyway, going by the "distaste" for KR and EC clients...), the only realistic option for growth is to offer the sizeable (in UO terms) niche of former players and true sandbox fans, a classic orientated "option".

Your suggestions that EA/BiowareMythic are "crapping their pants" over losing current subscribers to the F2P alternatives, doesn't really hold much water either. You forget the loyalty of the player base for one thing. Although declining, I don't see evidence that it's declined anywhere near as quickly as other games have. We don't have any concrete figures of course, but going by previously published figures and trends, UO hasn't declined as alarmingly quickly as other games.

Although I can understand the potential reasons for offering F2P, if that indeed is their plan, unless it's to offer a watered down, social-network version of the game, then I really don't think UO will appeal much to the current market.

Clearly those producing UO have to do something. Be it to maintain current subscription levels, settling with them so long as they remain profitable, or in some way attempt to encourage growth.
 

HD2300

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
We shall know this weekend, what the 2-3 year strategy is for UO.

They may decide that they want to move away from the PvE market and turn UO into Darkfall/MO/DAoC/WAR, because they cant compete against LOTRO and EQ2 going F2P. imo that would be catastrophic because going Classic would cause UO would die.

Alternatively they will announce the next PvE expansion/Tram shards. Wooo.
 
B

Babble

Guest
Hehe 2-3 year strategy? Has any UO producer stayed that long?

There will definitely be no expansion for now, they don't have a team for it and with TOR soon comming up I guess the online division has other problems.

A total revamp of the monsters in the lands though that sounds managable.
 

soze

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
We shall know this weekend, what the 2-3 year strategy is for UO.

They may decide that they want to move away from the PvE market and turn UO into Darkfall/MO/DAoC/WAR, because they cant compete against LOTRO and EQ2 going F2P. imo that would be catastrophic because going Classic would cause UO would die.

Alternatively they will announce the next PvE expansion/Tram shards. Wooo.
Do you even like UO? Do you enjoy playing? I dont mind people making assumptions, but your's are non-sensical and based on, well, nothing really. A mass exodus because of a classic shard...ok, dude. Classic shard would cause UO to die...show us another graph.
 
N

northwoodschopper

Guest
how long would a classic shard last before it goes stale? considering it would probably get even less attention than siege from the devs.
 
M

Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
There's more risk and challenge (and fun) today, than there were in the beginning.
Perhaps that's true for you. I have no way of knowing how badly or how well you play the game today. But for me, and many of us, the challenge is long gone.
 
M

Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
how long would a classic shard last before it goes stale?
That's impossible to answer and the answer would vary wildly depending upon who you ask.

Some of us actually prefer the classic version of UO and the modern version has grown "stale".

Diversity...look it up.
 
N

northwoodschopper

Guest
That's impossible to answer and the answer would vary wildly depending upon who you ask.

Some of us actually prefer the classic version of UO and the modern version has grown "stale".

Diversity...look it up.
considering everyone will be a vet and knows the ins and outs of the various systems, everyone will reach the end-game very fast in comparison to the yesteryears when everything was 'new'. with no development, or gm support (much less any em's), it will take an overwhelmingly immersive player community to prevent the burnout that happened on 'other' classic shards.
 
S

Sadrith Mora

Guest
considering everyone will be a vet and knows the ins and outs of the various systems, everyone will reach the end-game very fast in comparison to the yesteryears when everything was 'new'. with no development, or gm support (much less any em's)
A classic shard should be available for the many curious people who never had the chance to experience UO in the beginning. I don't think it's a bad idea at all as long as it's do-able. It would definitely help to fortify the subscription numbers and keep UO in the mix with other MMO's. (IMO)

I also think if they do re-create a classic shard, it would'nt be much more than a PvP playground for the vets who long for the past, because the initial community will never be duplicated.

I like the idea of a static pre-ren classic shard on the list along with siege perilous as an evolved fel shard, with all the rest of the modern shards.

Nothing wrong with that if they can pull it off.
 
A

Argoas

Guest
considering everyone will be a vet and knows the ins and outs of the various systems, everyone will reach the end-game very fast in comparison to the yesteryears when everything was 'new'. with no development, or gm support (much less any em's), it will take an overwhelmingly immersive player community to prevent the burnout that happened on 'other' classic shards.
The end game of a classic server is that there is no end game. If not, how is possible that nowdays there is more classic free shards than update free shards? Perhaps because many of us havent reached the end yet.
 
E

Evlar

Guest
considering everyone will be a vet and knows the ins and outs of the various systems, everyone will reach the end-game very fast in comparison to the yesteryears when everything was 'new'. with no development, or gm support (much less any em's), it will take an overwhelmingly immersive player community to prevent the burnout that happened on 'other' classic shards.
One discussion we had in the original classic threads, was about "sheep" and "wolves".

With reference to a land filled with "vets", I pretty much agree that for the most part, that will be most likely the case. Likewise though, many of those who were/are dead against the classic concept, were always happy to reel out stuff about the "rampant PK's" and how they would also kill any classic shards longer term.

On the basis that such shards would be populated for the most part by veteran players, there really won't be any "sheep", or particularly easy prey for the "wolves". Likewise, I think it's likely there will be far less griefers within a classic shard because - A) Players will be better prepared to "cope" with different player encounters and - B) Less likely to whine and cry if they happen to lose such an encounter.

It will be a completely open landscape, where such encounters are the norm, rather than the exception. Players who don't like that element of game play, won't play the shard, simple as that.

Also, on the basis of a more static world, within an open sandbox environment, then yes, player immersion will be important. So long as people are aware that it's a static world when they sign up, then literally, it does "exactly what it says on the tin"! The players themselves will make and control the majority of the "content".

That being the case, there won't be an "end-game" as such. That's the problem that faces "modern" UO in it's current format. It needs to have regular content added or changed, simply to maintain the whims of the current player base. That would also be the beauty of a more "static" classic environment, where the players shape the world themselves.

GM support and EM's... well, if people are paying for a product, then of course there will be GM support offered as part of the supplier/consumer terms of the "product". What level of quality that reaches of course, is anyone's guess.

There's also no reason why there can't be EM's in a classic environment either. Think of all the role-players that quit UO when the major changes came around. Think of all the large role-playing guilds that were around back then. Of course there were more players back then, but there were also more reasons to role-play too, in my opinion. I still have fond memories of the various orc "clans" on different shards, especially when they were in character, speaking orcish and controlling "their" lands.

I think that people under-estimate the potential and over-estimate the thinking that all a classic shard would be, is a free-for-all gank/PK/grief festival.

Unlike back in the "old days", players will (if classic goes ahead) really have a real choice how and where they play UO. Those that hated everything about a non-con environment, aren't forced to go there, just as they weren't forced to go to Fel after the split.
 
N

NorCal

Guest
I think that people under-estimate the potential and over-estimate the thinking that all a classic shard would be, is a free-for-all gank/PK/grief festival.
The facts are that the majority of current UO players never experienced classic UO and are just repeating hearsay about what classic UO was like from Tram players that exaggerate how it was.

Cal stated that the average UO account age was between 6-7 years old. Tram had already been around for years before the average UO player started the game. He also said the number of accounts that have played UO is in the millions. Those millions should be who UO targets because I really don't see UO being marketable to new gamers because of the bad graphics and huge barrier of entry with the state of the economy in a 13 year old game that has allowed scripting for years. It also estimates that UO has around 100k subs and that roughly half are in the asian market. I believe targeting the millions of ex-players is the way to go for UO.


Interview: Mythic On The Future of Ultima Online, Warhammer and Working with BioWare - IndustryGamers

IG: How long have most Ultima Online users been playing the game?

CC: I think over time, the tally is in the millions and every user account ever created has a number. The average player has been around six to seven years - what we do know is when they come in they don't initially leave. When the next best thing comes out we worry that they'll leave, but they stick around. I don't know too many games where grandparents play with their grandchildren. There's a legacy of a player base that few other games can brag about.

IG: We've heard that roughly half of all subscribers to Ultima Online are Japanese. Is that true?

JD: [pause] We'll get fired if we discuss subscription numbers. *laughs*

CC: I will say the Japanese community is super strong with Ultima Online. The numbers are a matter of national security. I'm pretty sure **** Cheney has an account on the game...
 
F

FishinFool

Guest
The facts are that the majority of current UO players never experienced classic UO and are just repeating hearsay about what classic UO was like from Tram players that exaggerate how it was.
Quite right.

People don't understand the old systems and the old way of doing things because they never experienced them. Stat-loss was a major force in keeping things under control.

Reds never swarmed with impunity, hanging around in the open just killing people - they never stood a chance if they did. It was more of a life style and a dangerous one at that. There were consequences for being red.

By and large, the reds were vastly different then anyways.
 
N

northwoodschopper

Guest
actually, i wish the devs would make a classic shard that only had the lost lands available, and not the rest of sosaria initially. then, if there was a story arc at all, then it would open the rest of sosaria once there's sufficient population and participation. kinda like the 'other' side of what happened with the production shards.
 

Dermott of LS

UOEC Modder
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
...

If you add any more lands past the initial ones decided on, it's no longer a "classic server" is it?
 
M

Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
...

If you add any more lands past the initial ones decided on, it's no longer a "classic server" is it?
Sure it is. It's still the classic ruleset.

There is nothing written in stone that says that a Classic Shard must always remain 100% static. What most Classic UO fans want to see:

- No Trammel
- No AoS
- A return to the original landmass and the Lost Lands
- No custom housing (still being debated)
- No neon colors
- None of the new races

Essentially, something that is much closer to the UO that we signed up for back in 1997. I personally don't care if they add new lands, etc. as the evolution of the shard happens, as long as they stay away from things that made UO less like Ultima and more like EverQuest/WoW.

AoS item properties, no risk gamplay (Trammel/insurance), silly robots and ninjas, eyesore housing, and eyesore non-fantasy/medieval colors are the bulk of what went wrong in the current version to us.

I see a lot of people throwing out things like "nostalgia" or "rose colored glasses" ... but the fact of the matter is, its not about nostalgia...it's about preference. We just liked the game better before Trammel and AoS screwed it up for us. There are plenty of people that like Trammel and AoS, and there will likely be plenty of shards available for people that like those things.

Also...for those in opposition to a Classic Shard:

You realize that if some of us vets leave our current shards, and we cannot transfer to the Classic Shard, that our items and houses will be available, right? Instead of being so negative, perhaps you could look at it as a way to gain more stuff. That seems to be what drives the current playerbase these days.
 
A

AesSedai

Guest
...
Also...for those in opposition to a Classic Shard:

You realize that if some of us vets leave our current shards, and we cannot transfer to the Classic Shard, that our items and houses will be available, right? Instead of being so negative, perhaps you could look at it as a way to gain more stuff. That seems to be what drives the current playerbase these days.
- You know what, that is totally wrong. Especially the last sentence, imho.

I was hoping to read a good, if a bit rosey-tinted, thread about the beginnings of UO.
My mistake was looking at the last post and reading this drivel. Sure, sure if you really want a Classic shard then go for it; but do not even try to typecast the current UO playerbase by declaring that all we want are items (you as a current player should know that we are not to all be clumped into an 'item=everything' -crazed group. Shame on you, Morgana. I know you can be more respectably compelling than that ;)).
 
E

Evlar

Guest
...
Also...for those in opposition to a Classic Shard:

You realize that if some of us vets leave our current shards, and we cannot transfer to the Classic Shard, that our items and houses will be available, right? Instead of being so negative, perhaps you could look at it as a way to gain more stuff. That seems to be what drives the current playerbase these days.
- You know what, that is totally wrong. Especially the last sentence, imho.

I was hoping to read a good, if a bit rosey-tinted, thread about the beginnings of UO.
My mistake was looking at the last post and reading this drivel. Sure, sure if you really want a Classic shard then go for it; but do not even try to typecast the current UO playerbase by declaring that all we want are items (you as a current player should know that we are not to all be clumped into an 'item=everything' -crazed group. Shame on you, Morgana. I know you can be more respectably compelling than that ;)).
For the same token though, it's frustrating that those in favour of a classic option, are also "clumped into" a free-for-all kill-frenzy-PK-Griefer "group".

Certainly one strong element of such a classic option, would be the quality and intensity of the PvP on offer, but it's certainly not the only aspect of play that people are after. Suffice it to say, that people just don't seem to care or understand the reasons people either side of the fence, have different opinions. Their view is "right" and that's that (in their minds). In this case, I would say Morgana's comment is more off the cuff than anything.

I must admit though, without trying to stereotype, but making observation... one of the reasons the game got stale for me (and I only finally quit this year), was that for my own tastes, too much of the game play, or reasons for playing seems to revolve around the acquisition of items.

Now I certainly know as well as anyone, that UO is much more than the sum of it's parts. I've enjoyed pretty much everything the game's had to offer over the years. Different activities and different play-styles.

What I found disappointing in recent years, was the feeling that too many players play for the items, or the "end-game" of getting items. I noticed that much discussion in the game, or on the forums, was about the items themselves.

Not the adventure, the battles, the fun to be had, or any challenges on the way, but the items themselves and their properties. Clearly "suit" building is important in the context of the current game, but it just felt like that was an area of overbearing importance for so many players.

I used to like UO when people would discuss strategies, skills and the adventure involved, when preparing to face a creature or player in combat. Getting some form of item, was considered more of a bonus to game play.

Perhaps it's an unforeseen side-effect of games designed where items are so important, that they become a key focus and reason to play, for most of the player base, thus overshadowing other aspects and reasons to play. I don't know.

What I do know, is that for me personally, it made the game stale and uninteresting. The feeling that I need to consider numerous mathematical calculations in order to "compete", or keep up with the Jones' hold far less interest to me, than when items were more simplified, or just a means to an end. I preferred the feeling when players were more interested in the actions, activities, skills, adventure, strategies involving character skill and user skill... in essence, playing the game for the sake of actually playing, instead of grinding for something in particular, or indeed, an "end game". Had you asked me what an end-game was even, in the old days, I wouldn't have know what you're talking about. To me, the game was an endless adventure.
 
D

Derrie

Guest
I'll never forget how awesome and what a thrill this game was it's first few years.

I remember the first week of launch, running from Brit to Trinsic. Half way there, I ran into a group of murderers who proceeded to paralyze and kill me.

It was in that moment I realized that gaming had forever changed. No more saving and reloading, if you died, there was real consequences!

Unfortunately, I was wrong. In that respect, gaming hadn't forever changed.

Slowly but surely, Ultima Online started to loose it's risk, it's thrill. Other games followed the same trend. You die? No problem. You loose a bit of experience, or a bit of gold. For me, the thrill was lost.

I'm definitely in the minority in respect to my views. All the same, I really miss that thrill in my games!
I played back then, too, and I have to say that back then there was rampant PK'ing everywhere. You were ganked all the time without having a chance to do anything. In other words, the game WASN'T balanced at all. It was only fun to those who either ganked others, or who gained a masochistic thrill from losing their stuff all the time. If you didn't happen to fall in either category, then the game was broken and unbalanced.

Yes it is a challenge. The challenge was in deciding what you could risk vs. what you owned.

It's certainly more of a challenge than exists in the game now. Here is a look at the typical players day in UO today:

- Went to Destard with 2 friends. No one else around. Killed Greater Dragons for about 20 min. Died twice. Didn't care because my friend rezed me and insurance absorbed all the cost thanks to the 6,789,342,098,843,288 gold I have in bank.

- Got bored there, went to a Champ Spawn in Ilsh. Died once. Didn't care. My friend rezed me and insurance absorbed the cost thanks to the 6,789,342,098,841,988 gold in my bank.

- Wow, if that happened to me again about 200,000,000 times, I might actually begin to see some impact from dying.

- Found some uber-rare artifact at the champ spawn. I put on my vendor in Luna for 100,000,000 gold. Now I REALLY don't care that I died 3 times.


Compare that to the old days:

- Went to Destard with my guild. We got there, and no one seemed to be around. I died pretty quickly to a dragon, which sucks because I had my sword of might on my corpse. My friend rezed me, but as soon as he did, a red guild showed up and killed us all. So much for my sword of might...

- Went back to the bank in Trinsic...on foot. The place was really busy. I opened my bank, and I only have about 19,000 gold in there. I need to go reg shopping.

- Restocked my regs. I have about 14,000 gold left, I need to find a new sword.

- Found a guy in Brit selling a sword of might for 10,000 gold. I bought it. Better be careful, there are thieves everywhere.

- Some guy stole my sword! The guards whacked him, but some a-hole grabbed my sword and ran off!!

- Now I am down to 4,000 gold. I need to go hunting.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which sounds more challenging to you? Which sounds more entertaining?

It's like the difference between watching an action movie and a documentary on trees native to northern France if you ask me. Having to actually worry about what you did, where you went, and what (and who) you took with you based on whether or not you could afford to lose it added an element of danger, mystery, and challenge to the game.
*facepalm*

That's NOT challenge. Having to grind extra time to be able to buy again an item that you had obtained in the past and lost ISN'T challenge, is just extra grinding.

If your idea of fun is having to grind all the time to re-obtain your items, then you have a funny idea of fun.

Perhaps that's true for you. I have no way of knowing how badly or how well you play the game today. But for me, and many of us, the challenge is long gone.
So I'm assumming that you don't play single player games because you don't consider challenging at all (not that your idea of challenge is correct, but I'll let that slide), as you don't lose your stuff when you die in them?
 
M

Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
but do not even try to typecast the current UO playerbase by declaring that all we want are items (you as a current player should know that we are not to all be clumped into an 'item=everything' -crazed group. Shame on you, Morgana. I know you can be more respectably compelling than that ;)).
Are you trying to say that the game is not item driven?? Sure, there are a few players left that value something other than what items they can collect, but they are in the vast minority. Just look at the posts here on Uhall. People complain about the number of Classic Shard related threads, but the number of item-related threads out number them 100 to 1.

The devs turned UO into nothing but a giant item hoarding fest when they released AoS. Since Trammel came into being, there has been no other 'point' to the game than collecting things. Even theives are all about collecting "rares" these days.

You, personally, may not play solely to collect items, but I can guarantee that you do your share of grinding for the latest uber rare trinkets and bobbles...so don't get so sanctimonious.
 
M

Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
That's NOT challenge. Having to grind extra time to be able to buy again an item that you had obtained in the past and lost ISN'T challenge, is just extra grinding.

If your idea of fun is having to grind all the time to re-obtain your items, then you have a funny idea of fun.
This. This is exactly what I am talking about.

It was not about "obtaining" items. You say you played back then, but you sound an awful lot like a current UO player to me.

You only obtained items back then because they were tools. It wasn't about owning every single 'rare' thing in the game. It was about having enough gear, even if it wasn't very good gear, to go out and participate in a thriving virtual world. Whatever it was that you wanted to do had some impact on the community as a whole.

Now, the only impact is on your own personal bank account.


So I'm assumming that you don't play single player games because you don't consider challenging at all (not that your idea of challenge is correct, but I'll let that slide), as you don't lose your stuff when you die in them?
You know, that was true for a while. If you can just save and start over...having to do so is a minor inconvenience, its not a real consequence. That, to me, is what *really* set UO apart from other games. It was hard. It was difficult. It was unpredictable. It had risk. It was truly challenging. Now its just a minor inconvenience when you die...just like resetting a console game, or having to start over on an arcade game. Well, at least in the arcade, you lost your quarter...so I guess one can say that arcade Donkey Kong has more risk than current UO. rolleyes:
 
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