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holy crap - they actually said they had a new RNG in testing

Thav12

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
i have a 24999 chance in 25000 of not getting what i want. But if i do get what i want, i am elated. The pixel crack effect. Poor gypsies.

When i hit the 1 in 25000 chance 10 times in a row, I should be applying for the position of creator of the universe.

The guy who missed 73 x 10% chance in a row should be interviewing with me for the position.

Nothing random about those kind of numbers. There is just global misunderstanding of large numbers. If you put a layer of sand on a plate and shake the plate a bunch of times, eventually the face of marilyn monroe will appear. That would be rare, on a astronomical scale. Doing that three times in a row would be divine.

No the RNG isn't broken, it has never actually worked. It has to have worked before it broke.
 

Basara

UO Forum Moderator
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IIRC, Draconi or another dev commented somewhere that the RNG is one that one normally finds in an undergraduate computer course - Sufficient for a passing grade (if not an A), but NOT for inclusion in a commercial product dependent on lots of consecutive calls.

And, even if they changed the wrapper for the RNG, there's no guarantee that the temporary fix in question worked as well as they hoped.
 

SchezwanBeefy

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
let me stir this pot with a giant spoon then - what if they have a flag or an adjustable slider of some sort on everyone's account that they can change to make it easier or harder to get the rare drops and let's say that they adjust it by how annoyed the GMs get when you page them too much or by how often their 3rd party detection database says you're cheating - I could see them playing favorites like that with their friends and secretly screwing over the people that annoy them - just so they don't have to actually ban people outright but they still get their satisfaction of screwing them over because it does seem like certain people always get the drops and more than that - certain other people never get the drops - ever - a while back in I think DAOC, 1 player had a flag set on his account that made sure he never got a drop - I think it was the Oui flag (we flag) - i spelled his character name wrong - this guy had done hundreds and hundreds of things that should have gotten him a drop until 1 day he complained on the boards and the devs investigated and found out that they had that flag set on his account so he could never ever get any drops - after they fixed it - things went back to normal for him - just wondering if a modified / more finely tuned version of that is going on here (perhaps even intentionally) - *end huge pot stirring* hehe

Possibly the longest sentence in history....
I think I ran out of breath just reading it.
 
F

Fayled Dhreams

Guest
Possibly the longest sentence in history....
I think I ran out of breath just reading it.
My post left you breathless? I win UOUhall :)
Tsk! shame on you for making fun of a mouth reader ... #rim shot#

Won UOUhall?
what are the odds of that?
Answer:
-0 (negative zero ... aka not even nothing) *badaboom tsssh!*

Basara .... rolleyes: math in the hall ... oh lordy :hahaha:
So, just to be clear here, are you saying that the RNG was changed recently on the production shards? Or are the changes still forthcoming?
Forthcoming, we found the source of the problem two days ago :p
Key note: :thumbup1: posted on: 06-15-2009 :gee:
 

Theo_GL

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I was trying to imbue something the other day with a 99.6% success chance... and I failed 6 times in a row.

I'll take any new RNG.
Whenever you hit a streak like that - take a step to the next tile. Seems to work. I have same issue with imbuing.

70% chance to work and I'll fail 2 or 3 times. Take a step - success on first try.
 
C

Coppelia

Guest
This would be the definition of what a random number generator ISN'T.

NIST has well known published tests you can execute easily to see if you are generating really random bits. If the developers are spending time writing a new Pseudo random number generator is means their current implementation fails those tests.

The problem isn't the random source as I think Coppelia was trying to state. It's how those random inputs are applied. What you want is a pattern generator that has a random input component that can skew a result slightly from that pattern.

It should look like a signal with a noise component. Not just pure noise.

Dig
Exactly. I think it's a mistake to use a RNG, even a perfect one, for most of the applications it has in the game. It's too frustrating : it creates jealousy (why him and not me, what did he do better?), paranoia (devs have slider of fortune for our character), and doesn't reward the effort.

If players love the Tokuno event drop system, that because there's a solid base of control from the player on whether they'll get something or not. Players don't know exactly when it'll drop (part of surprise and may help against ideas of cheat) but they know that the more they put effort in it, the faster they'll have one. It scaled : if they kill a few critters it will take time, but if they build a tactic and learn how to kill lots of high-end monsters, that will pay and they will get more.

The way you reward players encourage or discourage their different behaviors. If you think the game must be about pure luck, make it a lottery in every corner, use a bare RNG. If you think the game must reward efforts and encourage for example groups or helping each other, then you don't use a strict RNG.


And you can't blame people who use bots when your game rewards tedious little easy tasks and mock those who are trying to make a feat, beat a challenge of difficulty. For an illustration, Heartwood quests/BODs versus Bosses.
 
C

Cloak&Dagger

Guest
Anyone who seriously thinks the RNG is not broken are the ones making out with good RNG rolls.
One of my guildies got 3 pairs of Leggings of the Insane Tinker within a 24 hour period, not grinding the spawn. I grinded the spawn for several hours, several times, even solo'd it, and didn't receive a single pair.
During Navrey runs or Champ Spawns, generally there is one specific person in our guild that gets 80% of the 120 drops every time, as well as replicas.
The RNG is neither fair or effective, as Draconi researched before leaving. Unfortunately we have lost him, but we still have good Devs to look into these things and fix them.
Does anyone have a time for when they MENTIONED changing the RNG btw? I watched the entire Dev video and yet I could find where they mentioned this.
I do not get a high number of drops, and I do not think the RNG is broken. I think it works exactly as it is coded to work, do I think it is fitting? Maybe, maybe not. Further explanation will follow as I respond to the next post.

Exactly. I think it's a mistake to use a RNG, even a perfect one, for most of the applications it has in the game. It's too frustrating : it creates jealousy (why him and not me, what did he do better?), paranoia (devs have slider of fortune for our character), and doesn't reward the effort.

If players love the Tokuno event drop system, that because there's a solid base of control from the player on whether they'll get something or not. Players don't know exactly when it'll drop (part of surprise and may help against ideas of cheat) but they know that the more they put effort in it, the faster they'll have one. It scaled : if they kill a few critters it will take time, but if they build a tactic and learn how to kill lots of high-end monsters, that will pay and they will get more.

The way you reward players encourage or discourage their different behaviors. If you think the game must be about pure luck, make it a lottery in every corner, use a bare RNG. If you think the game must reward efforts and encourage for example groups or helping each other, then you don't use a strict RNG.


And you can't blame people who use bots when your game rewards tedious little easy tasks and mock those who are trying to make a feat, beat a challenge of difficulty. For an illustration, Heartwood quests/BODs versus Bosses.
Challenges exist in UO? Difficult ones at that? People like the tokuno drop system because they want it all and they want it now, pretty much simple as that. Is this wrong? Not really, but I do think the point drop system is to lenient while the RNG might be far to strict the point system is WAY to lenient.

Of course then, the point system is entirely reliant on the RNG, each time you kill a monster you have a chance to get a drop based on how the rng rolls, if you don't get something you gain points based on the RNG roll, those points in turn force the RNG to roll in a smaller range, thus increasing your odds but never guaranteeing them.

I am not entirely sure how the point system works currently aside from how I described it, but I do think it should be tweak after the RNG is fixed, as it is the basis. The point system should never guarantee anything, it should simply increase your odds up to a certain amount, for items with a drop rate of 5% perhaps increase that to around 30% higher drop rates get a higher percentage chance, but it should be a capped percentage and then relying on the RNG to do its job.

As for Draconi finding the RNG to be broken, this is true, but it is working as coded. It is also fair, while people may think it is not fair it is, as everyone has the same chance of getting the same RNG rolls, just not everyone is lucky enough to get them.

In short as I said before, the RNG is out dated and could use a reworking, also making it cleaner and more efficient means they can create systems such as the point system that rely on it more effectively. But the rolls are fair, the chances are what need to be changed.
 

I Play UO

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Exactly. I think it's a mistake to use a RNG, even a perfect one, for most of the applications it has in the game. It's too frustrating : it creates jealousy (why him and not me, what did he do better?), paranoia (devs have slider of fortune for our character), and doesn't reward the effort.
Have you ever been to real life before? Sounds a lot like that.
 

Thav12

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
not a troll, statement of fact Elden of Baja... did you read any of this thread? Devs have mentioned that before. "streakiness of the RNG" is almost an oximoron. As I was eluding to in my post, the problem that most people have is a profound misunderstanding of large numbers.

You can debate, as some have here in this thread, that it may be fine the way it is because we're used to it. Don't call me a troll though for stating that it never worked right. I think that there are ample examples on the boards of odd behavior of the RNG. Maybe not game-stopping issues, but certainly frustrating issues.

Various game mechanics have merit and are all addictive. many good diatribes on the web on addiction inducing mechanics. kill ten get reward, kill ten and maybe you get reward, kill until you randomly get reward. all work fine for us rats in UO cages. If someone "randomly" gets a rare random event/reward, but then 6x in a row, leads to agonizing and painful situations if others due to the inverse are excluded from such joy.

Now quit trolling yourself and contribute.
 
F

Fayled Dhreams

Guest
not a troll, statement of fact Elden of Baja... did you read any of this thread? Devs have mentioned that before. "streakiness of the RNG" is almost an oximoron. As I was eluding to in my post, the problem that most people have is a profound misunderstanding of large numbers.

You can debate, as some have here in this thread, that it may be fine the way it is because we're used to it. Don't call me a troll though for stating that it never worked right. I think that there are ample examples on the boards of odd behavior of the RNG. Maybe not game-stopping issues, but certainly frustrating issues.

Various game mechanics have merit and are all addictive. many good diatribes on the web on addiction inducing mechanics. kill ten get reward, kill ten and maybe you get reward, kill until you randomly get reward. all work fine for us rats in UO cages. If someone "randomly" gets a rare random event/reward, but then 6x in a row, leads to agonizing and painful situations if others due to the inverse are excluded from such joy.

Now quit trolling yourself and contribute.
Silence young padawhanacraker
Quote For Truth

now apologize :twak:
 

Thav12

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ya, um Thav12 that :thumbup1: up there, just means he agrees with you. Nothing about trolls. :)
And here I thought it meant quit f-ing trolling...


my appologies.

Hiding in shame somewhere...
 
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