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Hello EA. 90 point breath damage from tamed greater Dragons is a bit much,

  • Thread starter MoonglowMerchant
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M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
I believe every serious pvper knows the answer to that ridiculous question.

Quite obviously none really care.
Anyone that thinks insurance gold should be any type of serious factor in Felucca is a plain fool.

Oops, I think I may have inadvertently spotted a fool as pertains to taming & pvp :(

Sorry
I don't PvP on production shards. I believe I explained that I PvP on Siege. I was asking about gold from insurance kills to illustrate risk versus reward as it pertains to pet use on prodo shards versus Siege.
 

Goldberg-Chessy

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I believe every serious pvper knows the answer to that ridiculous question.

Quite obviously none really care.
Anyone that thinks insurance gold should be any type of serious factor in Felucca is a plain fool.

Oops, I think I may have inadvertently spotted a fool as pertains to taming & pvp :(

Sorry
I don't PvP on production shards. I believe I explained that I PvP on Siege. I was asking about gold from insurance kills to illustrate risk versus reward as it pertains to pet use on prodo shards versus Siege.
Ouch :(

My bad
 

Ailish

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
FYI

I just tested it again with a guildmate and the GD did 92 damage to me with firebreath to a corpse proof suit with 89 fire and 90 phys.

and I was not cursed at the time.
I still want to know if you are getting a SINGLE damage number to that degree over your head. The ONLY way to prove that the damage is coming from the SINGLE firebreath attack (not a COMBO that lands rapidly) is to show that SINGLE damage number over you head. Subtracting what you are left with from what you started with is not factual enough to plead your case. A GD can and will throw Explode, FS, E-bolt, firebreath and Mele (claw attack) in a 2 second period. That is not a single attack, that is a combo.

The rest of us are giving our figures for ONLY the firebreath, based on the # that presents over the head when hit with it. NOT the result of the combos that lands quickly.

Also, remember that firebreath IS a special move (someone objected that the only way for a player to do this was via special move), just like bleed, mortal, poison, dismount, etc that other pets use. The GD has 3 special moves: firebreath, bleed, and that claw mele thing that is such a pancake (aka the teleport special).

If you want changes done, you need to make sure you are presenting every single thing FACTUALLY. So, try looking for that number or numbers over your head. If you can, screenshot it.

Also - Goldberg ... we disucussed briefly in another thread the logout thing. There was a proposition that when the tamer dies, the pet disappears immediately so it cannot be left behind to do damage while the owner is dead (thus making it on par with other templates - cant deal OR sustain damage while dead). If it could be coded, I think it would be a good thing.
 
Y

Yalp

Guest
FYI

I just tested it again with a guildmate and the GD did 92 damage to me with firebreath to a corpse proof suit with 89 fire and 90 phys.

and I was not cursed at the time.

ok dude. i believe you.. you got hit with something from a greater dragon for 92 damage. how far away from it were you?

1) can you provide us with every single factor? all armor piece stats, skills, buffs, greaters' stats.. etc. every thing that would have any kind of impact to the amount of damage you took.

2) can those damage numbers be created with any other offensive strike in the game today?

let's talk apples and apples instead of the proverbial apples to oranges.
 

Ailish

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Just to be clear, I am not trying to dog on you o2bavr6 and MoonglowMerchant. The fact is, if you ARE getting hit that hard by just firebreath alone (as proof by a single damage #) then something IS broken and we should find out what it is (whether your char or the dragon in question) and send it as a bug report ASAP. Especially since testing by others shows that to be inpossible.

However, if you are getting hit by a COMBO for that damage, it is something a little different that needs to be addressed differently. Either by the slowing of the GD's casting or some other reasonable means. But first we need bare, unbiased facts, backed up with as much info and pictures as possible.

Believe it or not, I am interested in helping you.
 

Nexus

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in case you didn't know.

But hey, take your time fixing it. I know it takes time sorting through ten year old code. It's not like it's a new addition or anything.

Thanks!!

Spend 3-6 months going to 120 swords and then whine.....


Wait let me edit that.....

Spend 3-6 months through Working the skill (Most players don't have all day to work skills) as in actively working the skill at least 1 hour per day in comparison to any other Useful skill.....which you can gain to 120 in the same rough time from through casual play
 
L

Lady_Mina

Guest
Ya there sure are nasty in the wild.

I may be wrong here but I would swear they do the similar amount of damage an Ancient Wyrm does.

IT's funny when we run through Destard to Raid Rikktor and you get almost redlined from a GD you ran by :)
Tell me about it...i get killed in one hit when i go near a GD.
With my weak physical resist i'm pretty much doomed.

I do have to admitt tamers with GD's have great advantage in PvP.

I always though tamers had great advantage in Pvp...by letting a creature with 7-8x the strenght of a human fight for them...
But back in the days people had 'tricks' to seperate the pet from the tamer.
(the good old 'gate' trick)

Gd's are great tanks for PvM...
But i can imagen there's very little chance of survival chance when a tamer says 'all kill' and targets you...
I have a (swordsman/parry) warrior myself and i have pvp-ed a tamer...and i was pretty much dead in less then 30 sec.

But then again i don't see the dev team changing things back.
People complained about AoS...and they never changed things back either.

I have to be honest...i was a happy camper with my wyrm.
i didn't really need 'a new toy' to keep me going.
So i don't really understand why they released greater dragons.
(probably for PvM reasons to be able to take the new ML spawn)

I see Greater Dragons the same as AoS.
It ruined PvP...and we have to live with it...cause we have no other choice.
There's no turning back.

It's an other blow for the PvP community.
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
ok dude. i believe you.. you got hit with something from a greater dragon for 92 damage. how far away from it were you?

1) can you provide us with every single factor? all armor piece stats, skills, buffs, greaters' stats.. etc. every thing that would have any kind of impact to the amount of damage you took.

2) can those damage numbers be created with any other offensive strike in the game today?

let's talk apples and apples instead of the proverbial apples to oranges.

He was about 5 tiles from me.
1)
108 STR
35 DEX
135 INT
70/70/70/69/70
No prebuffs of any kind good or bad.
No curse was cast on me.
No Necro on this template to do vamp.
120 Mage/Med/Eval/Fencing/Parry/Tactics

2)
No other template in the game can do that much damage in one hit.

Seems to me your the one confusing the fruit here.

Let me know if you want me to list out every individual pice of my suit and I will.
I can also send anyone screen shots of my armor if they can post them for me.
 

Draxous

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You are correct here.

My only concern is that they say a lot of things that they never ever follow through with.

Or they do follow through but it took them 4 years to do it.
With the amount of anti tamer complaints these days, they'll fix it just to get some peace lol. It's been mentioned enough times lately that I think the fix could tentatively be expected this year, I certainly hope so.

On Siege, I'd have thought it would be better to remove pet bonding altogether for fighting pets. I have no huge issue with fire breath changes, but I doubt those would be enough. A week later it'd be "nerf their claws" or "they still cast spells 20 screens away" etc etc.

Then, if the devs were to tackle tamer issues on Siege based solely on reduced damage, they'd surely need to nerf damage further on Siege to allow for players wearing uninsured kit in PvP. Which is why I think it would be more sensible to drop fighting pet bonding then apply any damage modifications which are made to prod shards. I presume easier to code and thus more likely to be achieved.

Wenchy
I fully support removing pet bonding from Siege...

On one condition tho... that any pet tamed is already fully trained.



Seriously, this would instantly fix all of our taming problems... and bring back the need to actually use the skill to play the class.
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
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Stratics Legend
Also, remember that firebreath IS a special move (someone objected that the only way for a player to do this was via special move), just like bleed, mortal, poison, dismount, etc that other pets use. The GD has 3 special moves: firebreath, bleed, and that claw mele thing that is such a pancake (aka the teleport special).

If you want changes done, you need to make sure you are presenting every single thing FACTUALLY. So, try looking for that number or numbers over your head. If you can, screenshot it.
Yes it was one number above my head, I've been playing 10 years I know how to discerne between the two.

I have to disagree that Firebreath is a speacial move. If you consider Dragon lore they always had Firebreath the rest of the things UO implemented.

Also players only have the ability to do two special moves not three. If anything the Magery would be their third special move and Firebreath would be no different a part of the Dragon as its wings.

In Fact Firebreath has been part of all Dragon in UO since day one, before they could even do the other Special Moves.

ANd I will be happy to do it again and take a screen shot if there is someone who could post it for me.
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
all armor piece stats, skills, buffs, greaters' stats.. etc.
FYI

Head:
Folded Steel Glasses
8STR
Night Sight
15DCI /20/10/10/10/10

Neck:
Pendant of Magi
10INT
3MR
5SDI
10LMC
30LRC

Ring
9DCI
1/3
3LMC
8LRC

Bracelet
Ornament of the Magician
2/3
30LMC
20LRC
15 Energy

Tunic
8LMC
18LRC
17/5/5/10/21

Sleeves
2MR
19LRC
9/19/22/9/20

Gloves
2MR
12LRC
19/18/7/17/9

Legs
2MR
7LMC
23/19/23/10/5

Crimson Cinture
5Dex
10HP
2HPR

Shield
SC
9HCI
12DCI
3/4/2/3/1

War Fork
SC
Terathan Slayer
14DCI
-1FC
25SSI
31DI

Quiver of Infinity
10DI
5DCI
 
M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
Spend 3-6 months going to 120 swords and then whine.....


Wait let me edit that.....

Spend 3-6 months through Working the skill (Most players don't have all day to work skills) as in actively working the skill at least 1 hour per day in comparison to any other Useful skill.....which you can gain to 120 in the same rough time from through casual play
I'm not sure of the point of your post but I'll take a guess that you are complaining about the time it takes to train a tamer.

Am I right?

Well, in response to your argument, allow me to say that I have trained tamers, several of them.

Yes, it stinks. Just like it stinks to train poisoning or provocation or any number of other skills.

You notice how no one really complains about poisoners or provokers being overpowered though right?

I bet they would though if poisoners could make explodes that did 90 damage or provokers heaven forbid could provoke pets onto their owners. Oh my god, could you imagine the calamity that would ensue if there was actually a counter to tamers that used their own pets against them.
 
Y

Yalp

Guest
FYI

Head:
Folded Steel Glasses
8STR
Night Sight
15DCI /20/10/10/10/10

Neck:
Pendant of Magi
10INT
3MR
5SDI
10LMC
30LRC

Ring
9DCI
1/3
3LMC
8LRC

Bracelet
Ornament of the Magician
2/3
30LMC
20LRC
15 Energy

Tunic
8LMC
18LRC
17/5/5/10/21

Sleeves
2MR
19LRC
9/19/22/9/20

Gloves
2MR
12LRC
19/18/7/17/9

Legs
2MR
7LMC
23/19/23/10/5

Crimson Cinture
5Dex
10HP
2HPR

Shield
SC
9HCI
12DCI
3/4/2/3/1

War Fork
SC
Terathan Slayer
14DCI
-1FC
25SSI
31DI

Quiver of Infinity
10DI
5DCI
thx for the info... just checking my notes on slayer types... check me if i've got it right... terathons are in the arachnid slayer group?.. which are opposite of reptalian slayers.... so that might account for the high damage there? but check my notes on that.. i took the info off stratics and wrote it in my notebook, so I could certainly have made mistake there.
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
thx for the info... just checking my notes on slayer types... check me if i've got it right... terathons are in the arachnid slayer group?.. which are opposite of reptalian slayers.... so that might account for the high damage there? but check my notes on that.. i took the info off stratics and wrote it in my notebook, so I could certainly have made mistake there.
Thats a good point, but I don't think it pertains to PvP like the undead slayer and a mage who polymorphs into an orc to do double damage to the person holding the undead slayer.

But it's definately worth testing to see. I'll have to get back to youon that one. Let me know what you find out.
 
Y

Yalp

Guest
Thats a good point, but I don't think it pertains to PvP like the undead slayer and a mage who polymorphs into an orc to do double damage to the person holding the undead slayer.

But it's definately worth testing to see. I'll have to get back to youon that one. Let me know what you find out.
I thought slayer types worked no matter which facet you are on.. but I have no clue as to whether that holds true or not.. I so rarely use slayers when I'm in fel. You guys will have to let me know.

But Terathons are in the Arachnid family, Dragons are in the Reptile family and they are opposing slayer types.

http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/slayerweapons.php
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I thought slayer types worked no matter which shard you are on.. but I have no clue as to whether that holds true or not.. I so rarely use slayers when I'm in fel. You guys will have to let me know.

But Terathons are in the Arachnid family, Dragons are in the Reptile family and they are opposing slayer types.

http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/slayerweapons.php
You are correct there, but in regards to PvP I think there is only one type of slayer/opposing slayer that works.

When a player uses the Staff of Pyros with the undead slayer on it and another player polymorphs into an orc then it wil do double damage to the person carrying the staff of pyros. But from what I understand it is the only one of the slayers that does that in PvP.
 
Y

Yalp

Guest
You are correct there, but in regards to PvP I think there is only one type of slayer/opposing slayer that works.

When a player uses the Staff of Pyros with the undead slayer on it and another player polymorphs into an orc then it wil do double damage to the person carrying the staff of pyros. But from what I understand it is the only one of the slayers that does that in PvP.
ah ha... ocrs are humanoids, undead is the opposing slayer type. Might work the same when a dexer takes on a dragon with an arachnid slayer.. I suspect your test might show that.. let me know..

good tip for mages.....not an exploit.. just a good use of the tools given.. but I got a gold coin that says someone soon will cry foul and demand a nerf... hee
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
ah ha... ocrs are humanoids, undead is the opposing slayer type. Might work the same when a dexer takes on a dragon with an arachnid slayer.. I suspect your test might show that.. let me know..

good tip for mages.....not an exploit.. just a good use of the tools given.. but I got a gold coin that says someone soon will cry foul and demand a nerf... hee
Ya this is a little know "trick" that I have personaly used on people, but I have also explained to them what and why it happend after so they could at least be prepared for it in the future.

I'll try the same test with the GD tonight, with a different war fork on to see what happens. I'll let you know.

I'll try to take a screen shot as well, but have no way to post it.
 

Ailish

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I can post pics, I will PM you with an e-mail addy. Also, you guys are thinking in terms of PvP but remember even IN PvP you can equip a dragon or beetle slayer and it works on the pets ... so ya, opposing slayer is probably working as well when it comes to pets.
 

smip

Slightly Crazed
Premium
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Maybe your 2 dozen previous posts were missed by the devs... or maybe they have seen your comments and rightly decided not to make changes.


Tamer + GD have an advantage over SOME templates, but not ALL templates.

Enough already.... dear god!

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
Your statement was my thoughts when I read the post hehe:next:
 
Y

Yalp

Guest
I can post pics, I will PM you with an e-mail addy. Also, you guys are thinking in terms of PvP but remember even IN PvP you can equip a dragon or beetle slayer and it works on the pets ... so ya, opposing slayer is probably working as well when it comes to pets.
yeah.. we are trying to figure out how he gets so much damage from a greater.. and he's posted he's holding a terathan slayer.. .. so the damage would naturally be maginified.. in that case.. it's not the greaters that need nerfing.. it would be the tactics/ armor/ equipment/ skill that needs modifying when pvp against greaters. And maybe.. just maybe this push to nerf greaters can end..

... just a thought.
 

Nexus

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I'm not sure of the point of your post but I'll take a guess that you are complaining about the time it takes to train a tamer.

Am I right?

Well, in response to your argument, allow me to say that I have trained tamers, several of them.

Yes, it stinks. Just like it stinks to train poisoning or provocation or any number of other skills.

You notice how no one really complains about poisoners or provokers being overpowered though right?

I bet they would though if poisoners could make explodes that did 90 damage or provokers heaven forbid could provoke pets onto their owners. Oh my god, could you imagine the calamity that would ensue if there was actually a counter to tamers that used their own pets against them.
I'm not complaining about the time involved...I'm arguing the means justify the end. Poisoners I think should be counted when a person dies of Poison...even if they didn't hold the weapon....on the same note provokers are completely outside this as provo has no impact on other players. Taming has issues I'll admit that but a blanket nerf that would effect PvM and PvP is and has always been uncalled for. Players are tagged different in the coding than NPCs and therefore there can be a different damage calculation applied only when and if it's a player not a NPC of any type be it a wandering healer or a wandering ettin. A fine example of this is capped damage from Armor Ignore in PvP.

I don't like people suggesting blanket nerfs, simply because it comes across as whining and not thinking about what can and can't be done in a logical fashion.
 
M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
I'm not complaining about the time involved...I'm arguing the means justify the end. Poisoners I think should be counted when a person dies of Poison...even if they didn't hold the weapon....on the same note provokers are completely outside this as provo has no impact on other players. Taming has issues I'll admit that but a blanket nerf that would effect PvM and PvP is and has always been uncalled for. Players are tagged different in the coding than NPCs and therefore there can be a different damage calculation applied only when and if it's a player not a NPC of any type be it a wandering healer or a wandering ettin. A fine example of this is capped damage from Armor Ignore in PvP.

I don't like people suggesting blanket nerfs, simply because it comes across as whining and not thinking about what can and can't be done in a logical fashion.
I'm not advocating a PvM nerf or a blanket nerf. I'm just asking for greater dragon breath damage to be capped in PvP to bring it in line with all the other caps on PvP damage.

Let's say it is impossible to cap greater dragon breath damage in PvP without capping it in PvM. Would it be a big blow to PvMers to have breath damage from Greaters capped at 60?
 
Y

Yalp

Guest
I'm not advocating a PvM nerf or a blanket nerf. I'm just asking for greater dragon breath damage to be capped in PvP to bring it in line with all the other caps on PvP damage.

Let's say it is impossible to cap greater dragon breath damage in PvP without capping it in PvM. Would it be a big blow to PvMers to have breath damage from Greaters capped at 60?
considering the slowness of the gd, the cost in control slots (5 slot pet), and the high level of taming required to control (110).. capping it's output at levels that are near regular dragons.. yeah.. it might be something tamers feel is a big blow.
 
S

Spector_Napa

Guest
If you die to a "pet" the Tamer does not get the insurance gold.
If a "pet" kills a Blue player the Tamer does not get the insurance gold
but will get a count if the Tamer is reported.
If a "pet" kills a Red player the Tamer does not gain in Justice and does
not get the insurance gold.
The Tamer needs to get the kill shot in to get the insurance gold and/or
the Justice gain.
this line is wrong "If a "pet" kills a Red player the Tamer does not gain in Justice and does
not get the insurance gold."

even if ur pet kills a red you get justice. but not insurance
 

EnigmaMaitreya

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Let's say it is impossible to cap greater dragon breath damage in PvP without capping it in PvM. Would it be a big blow to PvMers to have breath damage from Greaters capped at 60?
You tell me, If the Dev's made it such that you could have only one weapon on you at a time (i.e. You already have a weapon and can NOT handle another) AND that weapon were made generic to the extent that there were NO attributes on it period. That there was NOTHING about it that allowed it to be tailored to the Weakest Resistance of the MoB/PC to be fought, NO SLAYER Bouns, WOULD YOU THINK THAT WAS A BIG DEAL?

Come on get on BOARD to the NERF everything else to be JUST LIKE A GREATER DRAGON. That is to say, a SINGLE WEAPON is all YOU can have on YOU AT ONE TIME and that SINGLE WEAPON MUST deal with anything and everything you encounter.
 
S

Spector_Napa

Guest
So, what exactly is your issue with reducing or capping the breath damage done by greaters in PvP?

Are you saying that it just isn't an issue? I can assure you that it is an issue on Siege.

My point in asking about the gold for insurance kills was risk versus reward. On a production shard, if your pet kills someone in PvP, you don't get any reward i.e. there is no insurance gold.

On Siege, dead is dead. It doesn't matter if a pet kills you or another player, your body becomes lootable and your stuff is gone.

So, on Siege, we have exactly the opposite situation from production shards. On prodo shards, there is no reward. On Siege, there is no risk.

All a tamer has to do is bless a heavy crossbow and carry a few bolts. He doesn't even need armor. The tamer dismounts and "all kills" and between the damage from the bolt, the damage from the fall, and the breath damage you are going to die.

If by chance, a tamers's pet ever gets in trouble, all he has to do is run away/stealth away, log out and his pet is saved. It is like self rezzes that never run out.

Let's say by some miracle (or in reality by another greater), you do manage to kill one of those dragons. What is lost? .1 in each skill.

Risk does not equal reward.

Your point I think is "What does this have to do with me, I don't play on Siege?"

That is fair. I think if you PvP in a suit that gives you 150 health, you aren't going to worry as much about taking 70 damage from a greater. And since, there isn't any reward for using one, you aren't likely to see too many.

Having said that, would it kill you if there were a reduction or cap on their breath damage so that people running around with 100 health can stop being insta killed?

:)
I personally think theres nothing wrong with the PvP aspect of dragons.
I think the only thing wrong is your aspect of how you PvP. You kill the tamer, dragons out of the fight. simple.
Now if your saying a tamer is hiding/running away. do the same. if your a mage lead the dragon to a place where you can drop para fields and throw ev's. dont charge head in to a tamer.(Thats just rediculous)
All tamers with the exceptions of ninja tamers have to be on foot, THAT is their weakness.
For those of you who are slower THEN quite simply dont stand around a tamer! or wait for a group of your friends to be around and gank said tamer.
THE ONLY TIME GREATER DRAGONS AFFECT PVP IS WHEN YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING. END OF STORY.
 

EnigmaMaitreya

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...
dont charge head in to a tamer.(Thats just rediculous)...

THE ONLY TIME GREATER DRAGONS AFFECT PVP IS WHEN YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING. END OF STORY.
But that is what all this is 100% about. Being able to take a Greater Dragon on One vs One.

Oh, they want it to be a good fight, yeah maybe the GD will get them down to 30% of their health before it dies, but there IS NO DOUBT THE GREATER DRAGON WILL LOSE and then the TAMER WILL LOSE and they can say What wusses Tamer are and what WUSSES Greater Dragons are.

They have 0% interest in actually PvPing a Viable Tamer.
 
S

Spector_Napa

Guest
I totally agree with you. they are only looking to have a quick fix to something they are incapable of thinking about.
ALTHO in retrospect for the siege perilous players, i must admit it is a bit overpowered for them considering gear is most likely nothing like regular shards.
i beleive someone suggested the bonding of pets to be removed?(as long as they tamed fully trained)
i think that would be a very viable and good solution to the problem.
Altho fully trained would be a bit excessive. maybe 90's in all skills with scrolls of training being able to be purchased from an npc vendor for various pet skills.
 

Ailish

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
ALTHO in retrospect for the siege perilous players, i must admit it is a bit overpowered for them considering gear is most likely nothing like regular shards.
i beleive someone suggested the bonding of pets to be removed?(as long as they tamed fully trained)
i think that would be a very viable and good solution to the problem.
Altho fully trained would be a bit excessive. maybe 90's in all skills with scrolls of training being able to be purchased from an npc vendor for various pet skills.
I also agree that Siege should be an exception here. The only thing that is making me crazy is that Moonglow Merchant is just not willing to cop to the fact that he is not running around in the same god armor we have on prodo shards and that this is the likely reason he is getting hit so hard.

100% trained on taming would probably be rough on Siege, and make it overpowered even more. Then people would just tame "throw aways".

Also, I am still trying to help o2bavr6 pin down the issue he is having. He did send me a screenie that I will post in a bit that DOES show a single damage # of 85. Since that is so very inconsistent with what everyone else is getting from testing, it bears investigation :)
 

EnigmaMaitreya

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Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
SP is a different animal all together. As far as I am concerned Remove Bonding on SP BUT MAKE DARN SURE THAT ANY TO TAME MODIFIER ARE REMOVED. Better yet, revert Taming back to what it was prior to Publish 16(?). You can NOT ask to have Bonding removed and leave in place the mechanism that requires extraordinary effort to tame something in the first place. Second DO NOT Reduce pet stats and skills to any levels other than what they would be when fully trained. Now then IF i take my pet into combat on SP and it dies, it dies the REAL DEATH. BUT I am not going to be required to spend WEEKS to replace it.

I am totally unclear why Bonding was put in the game in the first place (not really it is simply a right hand negating what the left hand does thing).

This entire program to NERF tamers on OSI's part has been a total FUBAR. And it sounds like it is just going to keep on geting to be even MORE FUBAR'd.

Tamers were a simple template, originally. The continued catering to the PvP wanna be challenged people AND the I HATE TAMERS crowd has created a worst case NIGHTMARE SCENARIO for EA/Mythic

Step one GET THE LEFT HAND AND THE RIGHT HAND ON THE SAME PAGE. Rather than have one Hurt the Template and the other make it all better.

Step two STOP PAYING ATTENTION to the I hate Tamers and the PvP wanna be challenged people.

Step three Create a Template that is:

One, Actually able to be created in a persons life time.

Two, Actually viable Template in a PvP environment and NOT some punching bag that CAN NOT win.

Three, Actually viable Template in a PvM environement and NOT some Meat Shield for the Other Templates to Kill Steal from forcing them to be a Solo Template.
 
S

Spector_Napa

Guest
Bonding of pets was introduced when monsters were jacked up to be able to destroy said pet in less then 10 seconds. granted not all monsters can do that.
but what happens if during a doom run the other players leeching off your dragon create a massive amount of spawn and your dragon gets overrun and dies with you being helpless to stop the death? That would mean you would have to leave the dungeon thus losing your chance at the end prize after all that work just to go tame another dragon/pet.
 
C

Connor_Graham

Guest
Three, Actually viable Template in a PvM environement and NOT some Meat Shield for the Other Templates to Kill Steal from forcing them to be a Solo Template.
First, there is no such thing as kill stealing in UO, capitalized or not. Besides, before you can complain about it, maybe you should talk to the Tamers that walk in and park their GD's on a spawn spot and kill steal themselves. Tamers are the absolute WORST about doing this.

Second, when Tamers stop thinking they're the only template that should be solo'ing things, then maybe something can be done. Tamer hate comes from the primadonna attitude that Tamers have pushed on people for years.
 
Y

Yalp

Guest
I also agree that Siege should be an exception here. The only thing that is making me crazy is that Moonglow Merchant is just not willing to cop to the fact that he is not running around in the same god armor we have on prodo shards and that this is the likely reason he is getting hit so hard.

100% trained on taming would probably be rough on Siege, and make it overpowered even more. Then people would just tame "throw aways".

Also, I am still trying to help o2bavr6 pin down the issue he is having. He did send me a screenie that I will post in a bit that DOES show a single damage # of 85. Since that is so very inconsistent with what everyone else is getting from testing, it bears investigation :)

does the screenie also include whether or not he has a terathon slayer equipped ? we went over this a few posts back that it might be adding to the damage because it is opposing slayer type.
 
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MoonglowMerchant

Guest
I also agree that Siege should be an exception here. The only thing that is making me crazy is that Moonglow Merchant is just not willing to cop to the fact that he is not running around in the same god armor we have on prodo shards and that this is the likely reason he is getting hit so hard.
70 fire resist is 70 fire resist whether you are on Siege or a production shard.
 
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MoonglowMerchant

Guest
considering the slowness of the gd, the cost in control slots (5 slot pet), and the high level of taming required to control (110).. capping it's output at levels that are near regular dragons.. yeah.. it might be something tamers feel is a big blow.
PvM tamers or PvP tamers?

I can't imagine that breath damage is a very big part of the total damage done by a greater in PvM. Their melee will account for the vast majority of the damage done.
 

Ailish

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Here is the screenie. It fails to show his status or debuff bars - he noted to me that he intends to take another screenie under controlled circumstances as this was takien in the field with a blue attacking him (note blue draggy foot in the top right corner). I was going to wait for that screenie before posting, but will just post it up when I get it from him. I also asked if he was using the terathan slayer at this time.

 
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MoonglowMerchant

Guest
You tell me, If the Dev's made it such that you could have only one weapon on you at a time (i.e. You already have a weapon and can NOT handle another) AND that weapon were made generic to the extent that there were NO attributes on it period. That there was NOTHING about it that allowed it to be tailored to the Weakest Resistance of the MoB/PC to be fought, NO SLAYER Bouns, WOULD YOU THINK THAT WAS A BIG DEAL?

Come on get on BOARD to the NERF everything else to be JUST LIKE A GREATER DRAGON. That is to say, a SINGLE WEAPON is all YOU can have on YOU AT ONE TIME and that SINGLE WEAPON MUST deal with anything and everything you encounter.
A slight reduction to breath damage woudn't be that bad. You are being overly dramatic.

If the proposal was to cap breath damage, reduce health, reduce strength, reduce dex, reduce magery, eliminate bleed, etc... then your analogy would work. As it is, you are badly overstating the potential impact.
 

EnigmaMaitreya

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Bonding of pets was introduced when monsters were jacked up to be able to destroy said pet in less then 10 seconds. granted not all monsters can do that.
but what happens if during a doom run the other players leeching off your dragon create a massive amount of spawn and your dragon gets overrun and dies with you being helpless to stop the death? That would mean you would have to leave the dungeon thus losing your chance at the end prize after all that work just to go tame another dragon/pet.
That would just be the way things were and the Tamer would need to adapt to it.

This is not just a one way thingy. It is a two way thing.

First if Bonding were removed then the ability to tame a pet needs to be brought back to the level it was when I left. I mean we all loved out White Wyrms and Dragons and Nightmares. We hated when they were killed but that was the way it was. You take the loss and you go out and retame it. We had NO information being displayed at that time that even hinted at capabilities, IF I recall correctly they did put in a message for the WW about no longer being able to advance in a skill meaning it was GM'd. BUT that was hardly relevant anyway.

This Rube Goldberg Machine called Taming is just totally FUBAR'd. It should NEVER have gotten to this stage.

Watch this, Put Control numbers on a Pet, Put Control Slot caps on the tamer. This LIMITS the number and choices of weapons for the Tamer vs what the Tamer had, the ability to mix up Dragons, White Wyrms, Nightmares etc. This eventually MUST lead to the individual Pets BEING MORE CAPABLE BUT WHAT HAS been alleged is that a stage is taken that REDUCES the Top pets by 50%. IF that is true then a serious step towards total FUBAR was taken.

Not only did you restrict the weapons and choices of the Tamer, you reduced the power of the weapons by 50%. You then implement Line of Sight and To Tame Difficulty penalties so the ability to Tame something is 200 times more difficult. You then change the Skill up algorithm that makes it virtualy immposible to raise taiming skills.

You install a 99.9% NERF to Tamers and then try to balance them.

This could do nothing but initiate an OSCILLATION that is still ringing today.

You give them greater detail on what the stats, resists and skills of the Pet are. This initiates the BELIEF that they MUST train their Pets.

The Pets die, this initiates the demand for retaining the pets after death.

Bonding is put in place to offset the EXTRA Ordinary effort required to tame and train a pet.

Jewelry is introduced to offset the absolute difficulty in raising the Taming Skill.

Greater Dragons and Dread War Horses are introduced to put Top end Pets back in the game at 80% of what they were when I left. OR SO THE ALLEGATION GOES.

Now you have the NON Tamers on this board whining about how the Great Meat Shield is so Totaly Over Powering all the while lieing, coning, what ever it takes to HIDE the fact they have a GREATER KILL POWER than the Great Meat Shield does.
 
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MoonglowMerchant

Guest
That would just be the way things were and the Tamer would need to adapt to it.

This is not just a one way thingy. It is a two way thing.

First if Bonding were removed then the ability to tame a pet needs to be brought back to the level it was when I left. I mean we all loved out White Wyrms and Dragons and Nightmares. We hated when they were killed but that was the way it was. You take the loss and you go out and retame it. We had NO information being displayed at that time that even hinted at capabilities, IF I recall correctly they did put in a message for the WW about no longer being able to advance in a skill meaning it was GM'd. BUT that was hardly relevant anyway.

This Rube Goldberg Machine called Taming is just totally FUBAR'd. It should NEVER have gotten to this stage.

Watch this, Put Control numbers on a Pet, Put Control Slot caps on the tamer. This LIMITS the number and choices of weapons for the Tamer vs what the Tamer had, the ability to mix up Dragons, White Wyrms, Nightmares etc. This eventually MUST lead to the individual Pets BEING MORE CAPABLE BUT WHAT HAS been alleged is that a stage is taken that REDUCES the Top pets by 50%. IF that is true then a serious step towards total FUBAR was taken.

Not only did you restrict the weapons and choices of the Tamer, you reduced the power of the weapons by 50%. You then implement Line of Sight and To Tame Difficulty penalties so the ability to Tame something is 200 times more difficult. You then change the Skill up algorithm that makes it virtualy immposible to raise taiming skills.

You install a 99.9% NERF to Tamers and then try to balance them.

This could do nothing but initiate an OSCILLATION that is still ringing today.

You give them greater detail on what the stats, resists and skills of the Pet are. This initiates the BELIEF that they MUST train their Pets.

The Pets die, this initiates the demand for retaining the pets after death.

Bonding is put in place to offset the EXTRA Ordinary effort required to tame and train a pet.

Jewelry is introduced to offset the absolute difficulty in raising the Taming Skill.

Greater Dragons and Dread War Horses are introduced to put Top end Pets back in the game at 80% of what they were when I left. OR SO THE ALLEGATION GOES.

Now you have the NON Tamers on this board whining about how the Great Meat Shield is so Totaly Over Powering all the while lieing, coning, what ever it takes to HIDE the fact they have a GREATER KILL POWER than the Great Meat Shield does.
I think you deserve your own thread. Feel free to start one about the underpowered nature of pets.

Good luck.
 

EnigmaMaitreya

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
A slight reduction to breath damage woudn't be that bad. You are being overly dramatic.

If the proposal was to cap breath damage, reduce health, reduce strength, reduce dex, reduce magery, eliminate bleed, etc... then your analogy would work. As it is, you are badly overstating the potential impact.
You highlight your problem, YOUR opion that it wouldn't be that bad and clearly your OK with it being a PvM NERF.

Second part you do NOT like the aspect of YOUR weapons being nerfed to the point were you can carry ONLY ONE WEAPON and that one weapon can have NO SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES. That one weapon must be suitable to you for dealing with EVERY SCENARIO.

So YOU propose taking a templates ONLY WEAPON and nerfing it to the point were you can take YOUR weapon and be GUARANTEED a defeat of the other templates weapon and the template character itself. Yeah Real Risk you want to take there don't ya think? And hey it would be Nifty if all that creeps into PvM as well right? I mean it isn't like YOU care period.

Because if YOU DID care then you would take the time and effort to learn how ...

NOT to crap in your pants when you see a Greater Meat Shield
NOT go into a mental melt down when you see a Greater Meat Shield
NOT to become brain dead when you see a Greater Meat Shield

In short, you would learn how to beat a Tamer.
 

Elric_Soban

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Enough already.... dear god!
Unfortunately, it will never be enough. I've been playing for 10 years now, and it's ALWAYS been the same. Any time anyone dies in pvp, they rush to the boards and demand that [insert whatever killed them here] gets nerfed, AND NOW!

lol.
 
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MoonglowMerchant

Guest
You highlight your problem, YOUR opion that it wouldn't be that bad and clearly your OK with it being a PvM NERF.

Second part you do NOT like the aspect of YOUR weapons being nerfed to the point were you can carry ONLY ONE WEAPON and that one weapon can have NO SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES. That one weapon must be suitable to you for dealing with EVERY SCENARIO.

So YOU propose taking a templates ONLY WEAPON and nerfing it to the point were you can take YOUR weapon and be GUARANTEED a defeat of the other templates weapon and the template character itself. Yeah Real Risk you want to take there don't ya think? And hey it would be Nifty if all that creeps into PvM as well right? I mean it isn't like YOU care period.

Because if YOU DID care then you would take the time and effort to learn how ...

NOT to crap in your pants when you see a Greater Meat Shield
NOT go into a mental melt down when you see a Greater Meat Shield
NOT to become brain dead when you see a Greater Meat Shield

In short, you would learn how to beat a Tamer.
I would prefer a cap on breath damage for PvP only.

The question I asked was whether or not anyone would have a problem with a PvM cap as well, just in case the dev team couldn't cap them separately.

You clearly have a problem with any further limitations on tamers or pets. Cool. You are entitled to your opinion.

Believe it or not, I'm not after a complete nerf of tamers or pets. I would simply like to see pets, particularly the greater dragons with their breath damage, brought into line with other types of damage in PvP.

On Siege, where I play, it isn't that people lose to pets and cry for a nerf. It is that the presence of pets on the field stifles PvP.

In other words, no one wants to leave their house to be insta killed by a pet so they just don't fight.

In my opinion, that isn't a desirable state.

There needs to be some counter to greater dragons other than another greater dragon.

You can't peace them. You can't use a potion to confuse them. You can't melee them.

If somehow, you do manage to get one past half life, the tamer simply runs off screen, hides, and logs.

It just isn't balanced. Pets have never been balanced for PvP. Now, with greater dragons, it is worse than ever.
 

o2bavr6

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yes I did have the terra slayer war fork in my hand at the time.

Sorry I didn't have my health bar open, I wasn't really prepared to take the screen shot :thumbsup:

I have my other war fork, sc -1, 38HLD, 48Fireball, 9dci, 40DI.

I will do it again with that warfork and resend you the screenshot.

BTW, thanks for posting this one.
 
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