For Our Troops

[Nestorius]

Well I support the average soldier, but then again, most the men in my family are career military. My point was that average grunts weren't tried, as your post made it sound.

okay you got me there

Also, I say water boarding is just swell for getting info. It won't kill 'em so why not? I don't trust it in the hands of this Federal Government though.

Hence I was always confused hearing conservatives five or six years ago ask for such an expansion of executive power...

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

Also, I say water boarding is just swell for getting info. It won't kill 'em so why not? I don't trust it in the hands of this Federal Government though.

Water boarding has been proved to provoke massive heart attacks.
Would you want to go through water boarding? No. It's torture. Period. You're using violent means to get information. That is the definition of torture in the dictionary.
Not only that, but people are not more likely to talk. And if they do, it's generally false information to get the torture to stop.
I support the troops. But I do not support these wars. I would prefer to have the boys come home and away from harm's way. I won't get into why the wars started or if it's right or wrong, all I'm saying is torture is wrong and if a government tortures, they're no better than a terrorist.

 

[Jonny]

Water boarding has been proved to provoke massive heart attacks.
Would you want to go through water boarding? No. It's torture. Period. You're using violent means to get information. That is the definition of torture in the dictionary.
Not only that, but people are not more likely to talk. And if they do, it's generally false information to get the torture to stop.
I support the troops. But I do not support these wars. I would prefer to have the boys come home and away from harm's way. I won't get into why the wars started or if it's right or wrong, all I'm saying is torture is wrong and if a government tortures, they're no better than a terrorist.

I don't want our boys and ladies over there either. I know we're on the same page as far as the war goes.

As for the "torture", well sex causes heart attacks for some people. So sex is torture too. Same for roller coasters. Hell, the ****ing cheeseburgers too! Let's ban it all!

Seriously, if I was being water boarded (and you're right, I would not want to be), I would tell them whatever the hell they wanted to know in order for it to stop. I wouldn't think to give them false info because frankly, I'd be afraid they'd do it again or worse.

I say if we're threatened by people who are willing to kill innocent civilians, we are entitled to do whatever we have to do to find out who is doing it, when they're doing, and where they're doing it. All worry about whether or not I'm hurting the terrorist after I protect the REAL citizens.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

As for the "torture", well sex causes heart attacks for some people. So sex is torture too. Same for roller coasters. Hell, the ****ing cheeseburgers too! Let's ban it all!

That's just stupid, and you know it. That's not a good argument whatsoever.

Seriously, if I was being water boarded (and you're right, I would not want to be), I would tell them whatever the hell they wanted to know in order for it to stop. I wouldn't think to give them false info because frankly, I'd be afraid they'd do it again or worse.

I say if we're threatened by people who are willing to kill innocent civilians, we are entitled to do whatever we have to do to find out who is doing it, when they're doing, and where they're doing it. All worry about whether or not I'm hurting the terrorist after I protect the REAL citizens.

You're not listening. Torture is hurting someone in order to get information. That's against the Geneva convention. It makes us no better than terrorists. And guess what? It doesn't get the information the government wants and often leads to false information, if any information is given. That is the honest to god truth.
I would read this Washington Post article. It makes my point. You can say all you want about my liberal news or whatever because FOX tell you the exact opposite, but I've heard from friends who were in Iraq/Afghanistan. Another friend of mine is a torture strategist who says it doesn't work and hates his job.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301303.html

 

[Diomedes Artega]

To quote my previous reply:



I don't feel bad for any soldier who joined after, say, mid-September, 2001. They knew what they were getting in to.

Have to say overall, Aran has some good points. If you joined after 2001, then you SHOULD have known what you were getting into. For me, I had already been in for close to 5 years by then so I knew what the deal was.

You see fear, I see disapproval. Why would I join the military to fight people I find myself agreeing with more every day?

We went into their lands, they retaliated. We started this, not them. Now we're somehow the "good guys"?

Once again, there is enough information about this AND it's been declassified quite frankly. There never were any weapons of mass destruction. Not to the extent where we went in looking for them. As far as the first sentence, well I can understand defending yourselves. We would do the same thing if someone attacked us on our soil. In terms of a "win," no we retreated just the same way we did in Vietnam. Essentially they used the same guerilla warfare tactics that were used against us in Vietnam.

Tell me, which of your rights are being fought for by invading a foreign country?

Good point. No rights are being fought for in invading foreign countries that aren't near us. At least...the ones in question. Let me give you a scenario now. This is basically a scenario if you know anything about military intelligence...that can't be argued. AND WELL...really the only reason anyone would debate this is: fear.

John Doe is a terrorist and military combatant. But...you have zero intelligence on him, you don't know his name and you have never seen him before. John Doe is strapped with explosives under his trench coat and walks into a bank and blows himself up. WHY wasn't he stopped?

Because nobody knew he was a terrorist...that's why. Isn't that scary that there is really nothing you can do? You can't stop a target that you have zero intelligence on.

Intelligence is gathered through:
1. observation
2. other military reports (e.g. other countries intelligence)
3. informants
4. satellite
5. information that's gathered through maps, internet, mail, etc.
6. enemy combatants (if they talk at all)

Think of it like this. A new neighbor moves in next to you. Do you have any idea who they are? No...not if you haven't seen them before and don't introduce yourself. You then only learn through them by what?...THAT'S right...observation. Or, what you learn from your friends if they know he/she. That would be like an informant. Or, you can do your own investigating through the internet and/or private investigator. That would be similar to a military report.

As far as the main topic of this discussion, I agree with what Grumm said. Care packages and cards when I was in places like South Korea and Bosnia met a lot to me. Since 2001 though, what has been going on? NO...it has made me ANGRY. You support your troops by wearing a shirt or slapping a sticker on the back of your car? PUUUHHHHHHLEASE! I'm not impressed. It's kind of like the saying fix it and forget it, except in this case it is SLAP IT AND FORGET IT. Meaning, slap the sticker on the back of your car and then forget about it.

Put some real effort into it. Make a blanket...like whatever that program is that they did at Walter Reed Hospital, send a care package, write a card, visit a veteran's home, visit someone in the hospital, do community outreach work, or just plain work at a shelter or something where veteran's are. That is what made this country what it is: People taking the time out of THEIR lives and making a difference in someone's life through a simple act. I'm not saying your act quote n quote isn't patriotic, but it's not what I or others I know would do. "Support our Troops" is just a handy-dandy slogan to me. Doing something that shows a real difference.

I may have served enough time to equal several people's commitments. Do I throw that in anyone's face or think I defended anyone's freedom by doing so? I certainly didn't and as far as defending freedom? meh...nobody attacked me on our soil, so you know what? I cannot say. What I can say though, is every day I was and am American. And...I did a commitment that some soldiers held 200 years or more before me.

 

[Diomedes Artega]

Isn't that scary that there is really nothing you can do? You can't stop a target that you have zero intelligence on.

Forgot to say also, as far as this goes. Quit living in fear. Be happy you are alive and enjoy each day. When you are fearful that just does not play in your hands. It's my opinion naturally, but what can you do about terrorists? Nothing...that's what. These people are not an organized army. There is no number as to how many there are, and there may not be enough intelligence to know where they all are.

 

[Jonny]

As for the "torture", well sex causes heart attacks for some people. So sex is torture too. Same for roller coasters. Hell, the ****ing cheeseburgers too! Let's ban it all!

That's just stupid, and you know it. That's not a good argument whatsoever.

Seriously, if I was being water boarded (and you're right, I would not want to be), I would tell them whatever the hell they wanted to know in order for it to stop. I wouldn't think to give them false info because frankly, I'd be afraid they'd do it again or worse.

I say if we're threatened by people who are willing to kill innocent civilians, we are entitled to do whatever we have to do to find out who is doing it, when they're doing, and where they're doing it. All worry about whether or not I'm hurting the terrorist after I protect the REAL citizens.

You're not listening. Torture is hurting someone in order to get information. That's against the Geneva convention. It makes us no better than terrorists. And guess what? It doesn't get the information the government wants and often leads to false information, if any information is given. That is the honest to god truth.
I would read this Washington Post article. It makes my point. You can say all you want about my liberal news or whatever because FOX tell you the exact opposite, but I've heard from friends who were in Iraq/Afghanistan. Another friend of mine is a torture strategist who says it doesn't work and hates his job.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301303.html

I think my heart attack argument made the point I wanted it to though. You said water boarding was bad because it sometimes caused heart attacks, well so do all the things I listed. The water slides at Six Flags: White Water can cause someone to have a panic attack or heart attack; does this count?

You know what else? I don't care if we're honestly using the same tactics as terrorists. I don't want us to look morally better, I want us to be safe. When it comes down to it, I prefer seeing my loved ones asleep in bed every night and knowing we did some questionable things rather than not seeing them ever again because a bomb killed them... but hey, at least we weren't mean to the people who did it.

Tell you what, you lose someone in a terrorist attack in our country and tell me you don't want to see the bastards responsible burn for it. Now I can't say I've lost anyone because I haven't... but I also don't want to risk it either trying to be Mr. Nice-Guy.

 

[Aran]

But those other things that can cause heart attacks... You do them voluntarily.

And as for safety? How about we STOP AGITATING OTHER COUNTRIES?

 

[Arch Magus]

How about

we tell these mullah run countries, that if WE ARE ATTACKED AGAIN BY MUSLIM PSYCHOPATHS, WE WILL NUKE MECCA. END OF STORY.

That would make them and their dirty night shirts think twice about doing anything stupid like 9/11 again...

 

[Jonny]

But those other things that can cause heart attacks... You do them voluntarily.

And as for safety? How about we STOP AGITATING OTHER COUNTRIES?

Hey, I'm completely down for that. I know why the terrorists have their little Jihad against us. I can't blame them for being mad or wanting to get even. However, that does not give them the right to attack innocent civilians in the name of their distorted view of Allah.

I believe the U.S.A.F. should simply be used for national defense, not the policing of the world.

All I'm saying is that if we know there's going to be an attack, I don't mind the idea of our being ruthless to protect American citizens.

How about

we tell these mullah run countries, that if WE ARE ATTACKED AGAIN BY MUSLIM PSYCHOPATHS, WE WILL NUKE MECCA. END OF STORY.

That would make them and their dirty night shirts think twice about doing anything stupid like 9/11 again...

You want to punish an entire religion because of a group of megalomaniacs that have distorted their views of Islam in order to make it look like they're right? That's a great idea. Then, instead of a few loons, we'll have an entire world for of Muslims with every right to attack us then. Not to mention every other country in the world will refuse to support us after the fact that we use nuclear weapons on a populated, religious shrine.

Yeah, I know you were being sarcastic, but next time, try and use some reasoning skills before you speak.

 

[Mairut]

Sure, real great:
linky

I gave what you posted on here a brief look-over. If I remember correctly from when my dad was in the military (U.S) questions like that are asked every so often of our troops as well. As far as everything else, it seems to be about the same.
Patriot Act, HR 1955 and its Senate counterpart or "Prevention of Radicalized Homegrown Terrorism", along with some of the homeland security info on recognizing possible "terrorists" being handed out to LEOs in different states. Some people even say the "Real I.D." act are all parts of this in the states. I bet UK troops answered the same as what US troops answer, which is a big fu I'll desert before I ever do anything like that...

It was a bit surprising to find some "evidence" of this happening across the pond though, thank you for posting the linky.