Everybody is blue nowadays...revamp REDS-PKERS? My ideas...

[MalagAste]

I was asked by a couple of Fel PvPers to please chose the +1FC for my city so they could use it and build suits around it. Now I honestly don't really care what I chose for the Town Bonus since my character who is Governor of Yew doesn't need or use it. But since they were Citizens of Yew and they essentially pay for the +1FC I have consistently supported it. So I agree 100% with what @I Actually PVP is saying because I'm fairly sure it's true.

I've always said that there ought to be some sort of similar system in Fel... Or some way for them to access the town stones.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

I respectfully disagree.

I have an extremely hard time believing that the lack of 1 FC would make your entire template invalidated. Seriously... what would change on your template? FC goes from 4 to 3, or 2 to 1, something along those lines? Would that make this toon completely unplayable? Really?

I understand all the PvPer's want to have perfect suits with as many maxxxed out mods and skills as possible, but the implication that these are some sort of absolute requirement is being over blown.

Have you ever tried to cast with 1fc? The fact you just said what you did tells me you have not. Going up against a dexxer @1.25 or a mage at 2/6 while being 1/6 is suicide.

They are absolute requirements if you build your entire suit around them and a few key other pieces, saying they are not is just ignorant. If you took them out of the game completely you would see much more reds along with less complicated suits.

 

[Merlin]

Have you ever tried to cast with 1fc? The fact you just said what you did tells me you have not. Going up against a dexxer @1.25 or a mage at 2/6 while being 1/6 is suicide.

They are absolute requirements if you build your entire suit around them and a few key other pieces, saying they are not is just ignorant. If you took them out of the game completely you would see much more reds along with less complicated suits.

And this is part of the real problem as to why PvP is losing more and more players and why we have less reds: the same dozen or so folks who have absolutely perfect-Uber suits that are nearly unbeatable and just wreck everyone else who comes to Yew gate. This makes the barrier to enter PvP and be competitive to be just way too high, and is further more reason why reds don't also need to have access to the town bonuses. You shouldn't have to need a degree in suit building and a half dozen uber-pieces to compete in PvP.

 

[OREOGL]

Ok, literally, all I do in UO is pvp . That's it. The same is true for about 80% of my guild.

Town bonuses are the ONLY reason that I don't have a red anymore and the only reason that I am making a concerned effort to keep my players blue. The same is true for @Cetric and the same is true for the vast majority of my guild and other pvp guilds that I've talked to.

If you gave fel the same town bonuses or dungeon bonuses or whatever (it doesn't matter how you get the buff, it just matters that it's available), then myself, Cetric and others would stop deleting every single red character we have and wouldn't mind playing them for the most part.

My point isn't to create a huge influx of reds, it's just to stop them from being actively deleted. My point is, right now, you are at a DISTINCT DISADVANTAGE playing a red(as I've said, town buffs allow for suits and templates that would not otherwise be possible). If there were balance between red/blue pvpers wouldn't care what color they are.

Don't get me wrong, I'm indifferent to the idea as it makes no difference to my builds.

But i still don't get what you were talking about with faction stat loss and town bonuses.

the "I only PVP" part I find amusing as if that plays some part in the merit of your argument.

I mean I've PVPed since 2000, including factions so I think we can wash that out.

But the argument I'm seeing from you is you wouldn't have went blue instead of wanting more reds. But once you turn blue why would you go back to being red if bonuses are the same?

It seems too little too late, but that's me.

 

[I Actually PVP]

FC goes from 4 to 3, or 2 to 1, something along those lines? Would that make this toon completely unplayable? Really?

If you want to begin flaming one another... please refer to your own previous posts about not wanting to derail the thread.

Saying you don't know what you're talking about when you clearly don't know what you're talking about isn't "flaming," it's stating the truth and trying to highlight which points in this thread are valid.

FC 2 is ESSENTIAL in any mage template PERIOD. We've all gone out of our way to make sure we have this bonus because it does in fact make that much of a difference! Without it, we wouldn't be able to fit EP on as easily, which would then force us to drop some our ring/brace combos which are tailored around skill and stat bonuses and many of us would then not be able to play temps that can compete with 211 stam archers.

Glad I could help teach you something essential about UO pvp today.

 

[I Actually PVP]

But the argument I'm seeing from you is you wouldn't have went blue instead of wanting more reds. But once you turn blue why would you go back to being red if bonuses are the same?

It seems too little too late, but that's me.

Forget the stat loss part (that was just me comparing two different factors that have pushed people to just playing blues)

As for going back to red, you'd go back to red because you kill some random blues and you get murder counts. That's it. Someone like me, who only pvps, would probably end up going red in a few weeks time. My point is, right now, I'm making a conscious effort every time I play to not kill blues and I'm wasting money on forged pardons because I'd be putting myself at a disadvantage otherwise. With the current system, YOU NEED TO BE BLUE in order to compete.

 

[Merlin]

Saying you don't know what you're talking about when you clearly don't know what you're talking about isn't "flaming," it's stating the truth and trying to highlight which points in this thread are valid.

FC 2 is ESSENTIAL in any mage template PERIOD. We've all gone out of our way to make sure we have this bonus because it does in fact make that much of a difference! Without it, we wouldn't be able to fit EP on as easily, which would then force us to drop some our ring/brace combos which are tailored around skill and stat bonuses and many of us would then not be able to play temps that can compete with 211 stam archers.

Glad I could help teach you something essential about UO pvp today.

And FC 2 isn't only obtainable through town bonuses, DERP. Stop acting like you're entitled, when you very clearly aren't.

If you have to have a perfect suit with all stats maxxed out on every mod you play with... then PvP / being red is already a lost art form and doesn't deserve any attention from the developer's. And I say this as someone who normally doesn't agree with these weak PVM'ers who want to completely take PvP out of the game, but the extreme PvPers who insist that they need to have every advantage possible to PvP or not at all are simply off their rockers and contributing to why there will be less PvP in the future.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

And this is part of the real problem as to why PvP is losing more and more players and why we have less reds: the same dozen or so folks who have absolutely perfect-Uber suits that are nearly unbeatable and just wreck everyone else who comes to Yew gate. This makes the barrier to enter PvP and be competitive to be just way too high, and is further more reason why reds don't also need to have access to the town bonuses. You shouldn't have to need a degree in suit building and a half dozen uber-pieces to compete in PvP.

Your estimate on the "same dozen or so" people running uber suits is way off. I would say that number exceeds 30. UoF and 151 both with 20+ members all have great suits. God/sgp/nbd which probably consist of a minimum of 30 all have great suits. Having the Town Bonus allows people to take the suit one step further. You get an amazing jewel combo and are missing 1 crucial stat? Go check the list of TB and see if you can make it up. It's not rocket science...

Today's loot pub makes it so you can farm for a week and put together an awesome suit. Recently there have been about 10 returning players that I am aware of (could be more), that got set up in a weeks time and are already competing on the field.

Giving red players the option to have TB's will not hinder anything tram or lore related. They will still have alts that will be blue. Worse case scenario the voting system looses some voters. I mean, if you don't think that Governor's up for election/reelection reach to and also cater to PvPer's in exchange for votes then I think you might be looking at this a little blind.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

And FC 2 isn't only obtainable through town bonuses, DERP. Stop acting like you're entitled, when you very clearly aren't.

If you have to have a perfect suit with all stats maxxed out on every mod you play with... then PvP / being red is already a lost art form and doesn't deserve any attention from the developer's. And I say this as someone who normally doesn't agree with these weak PVM'ers who want to completely take PvP out of the game, but the extreme PvPers who insist that they need to have every advantage possible to PvP or not at all are simply off their rockers and contributing to why there will be less PvP in the future.

How is it an advantage when it is within the game mechanics already? The argument is to allow reds to have the same bonuses as blues so reds come back into pvp. If you're not striving for perfection in PvP doesn't mean others shouldn't as well. The art form does still in fact exist, it has just evolved with the game. It is more tailored to suits/templates now than it ever has been.

 

[Merlin]

How is it an advantage when it is within the game mechanics already? The argument is to allow reds to have the same bonuses as blues so reds come back into pvp. If you're not striving for perfection in PvP doesn't mean others shouldn't as well. The art form does still in fact exist, it has just evolved with the game. It is more tailored to suits/templates now than it ever has been.

By all means, I really hope you're right and I'm wrong. I want to see more people come back to PvP (red or blue) and think the fear that some others have of PvP and Fel in general is usually misguided and pathetic.

I just don't think that town bonuses are a requirement for making that happen or something the developer's currently have resources to address at the immediate moment.

 

[I Actually PVP]

As @Old Vet Back Again said, so much of today's pvp is based on templates. You can lament about the state of UO pvp all you want but it doesn't change the fact that today it's all about squeezing in as many skills and stats onto a suit as possible (should that 1FC mempo ever become widely available then things will really hit the fan in terms of what one can fit on a suit).

I never really cared about being red before, but it's the introduction of one-sided things like these town bonuses that have forced me and others to delete characters and cater our playing style around staying blue, which drives me a little nuts.

Then again, I wouldn't have said anything had this thread not been created.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

The sad thing is here we are having an open dialog bringing up good points and counter points, but the devs will never comment. They will make a change and claim they were watching what was being said. Then state they felt their change was the best solution, when in fact it wasn't...

I don't see why they just don't have a focus group once a month or even once every couple months to discuss issues within pvp. Having an open dialog with the player base would be beneficial in many ways. They can give reasoning as to why certain things cannot happen due to coding etc and they can actually hear strong reasoning behind why things should happen from people who are actually participating on a daily basis.

 

[drcossack]

By all means, I really hope you're right and I'm wrong. I want to see more people come back to PvP (red or blue) and think the fear that some others have of PvP and Fel in general is usually misguided and pathetic.

I just don't think that town bonuses are a requirement for making that happen or something the developer's currently have resources to address at the immediate moment.

It is. I can understand the fear of it, I know I had it for a while years back (on a ****ty dialup connection though, which certainly didn't help), but getting internet from Comcast (originally Adelphia) helped A LOT. But it's 2015: dialup has gone the way of the dodo, and gear is easy to get, now more than ever since Pub 86. The only thing that can stop people from PvP'ing is themselves.

Town bonuses...I currently don't have one, nor do I know what the bonus is for Yew on LS, but the only one I really need would be SDI. I'm 16% SDI solely through items, with GM Scribe, but afaik, there's no real difference between 26% and 31%. It'd be what, maybe an additional point of damage? While it hardly seems worth it to me for that small an increase, I would still do it.

Yes, the town bonuses certainly help, but you can just as easily build a character without them.

The sad thing is here we are having an open dialog bringing up good points and counter points, but the devs will never comment. They will make a change and claim they were watching what was being said. Then state they felt their change was the best solution, when in fact it wasn't...

I don't see why they just don't have a focus group once a month or even once every couple months to discuss issues within pvp. Having an open dialog with the player base would be beneficial in many ways. They can give reasoning as to why certain things cannot happen due to coding etc and they can actually hear strong reasoning behind why things should happen from people who are actually participating on a daily basis.

Agreed. Yeah, the focus group idea's nice, but it's meaningless if they're just ignored, like it was for the vvv pet res'ing. If they change things in PvP, fine, but they should actually TELL us what's been changed, or ask for our input on changes.

 

[SlayerofBunnys]

I somewhat like the idea of having town buffs in Fel. It could be closer to what I feel could be a minor gold sink and have the individual characters pay for whatever buff they choose. A possible example for a character loyal to Moonglow:

1) The character can go to Moonglow in Trammel and choose to use the Governor's negotiated buff for free.

2) The character can go to Moonglow in Fel and for 10K gold can choose the buff that fits the currently planned outing.

The town stones in Fel would have to be situated such that they were outside the VvV areas of a town (maybe at the moongates).

 

[Cetric]

I remember when someone else took Brit and dropped the fc1 buff, several players, myself included quit playing for months because our suits weren't right.

 

[Aran]

Um, I know of plenty of people who sub just for the pvp...

Okay, a handful or two sub for the PvP, most of the people talking about it nostalgically aren't among them.

 

[MalagAste]

I remember when someone else took Brit and dropped the fc1 buff, several players, myself included quit playing for months because our suits weren't right.

Cetric on GLs the 1FC buff is in Yew and will always be until someone pays for it to change.

 

[cobb]

The Red/Blue system in UO is what made the game very unique and made it stand out from all the other games. This feature should be emphasized, instead it seems to be going away.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

Okay, a handful or two sub for the PvP, most of the people talking about it nostalgically aren't among them.

Again, nice try with your less than funny sarcasm/troll. There are plenty more than that sub for the sole purpose of PvP. People can place a higher desire on PvP than other things within the game and that doesn't mean they don't enjoy doing the other things. If you take away pvp for those who favor it more than the other content you would watch subscriptions shrink. You can also play it in the opposite way; People that enjoy PvM more but like to PvP on occasion would also become less interested in the game if PvP was taken away.

So I guess to some it up, your speculation is way off

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

They talk about it all the time, but none of them sub to do it.

Just like slavery is part of America's heritage, it should go by the wayside.

Getting rid of PvP, would completely and utterly go against the principles that Richard Garriot (Lord British) established UO upon. Richard Garriot established UO as a social experiment, he wanted to know what would happen when you put a bunch of people in a world where they could do anything they want. Would players succumb to complete "hedonism", where anarchy and chaos would rule the day? Or would players still maintain a measure of "decency" or "virtue" in a world with no laws, and police themselves? A little of both happened. UO was built upon player freedom, and the results/consequences of that freedom.

PvP in UO, is essentially already consentual nowadays. The very moment you step foot into Fel, you're basically signing a waiver. You KNOW that PvP goes on in Fel, and if you don't want to take part in it, you don't have to. You can completely avoid going to Fel. Not like it was in the old days, where Fel was all we had (back when it was just called "Britannia" or "Sosaria"), and PvMers and PvPers co-existed and interacted with each other in the same world.

PvP isn't some evil that must be wiped from the world. In fact, there are entire genres and even emerging entertainment industries based upon it. Mobas are a good example. Most Mobas heavily feature competitive PvP (such as DotA), and competitive gaming (PvP) has become an entertainment industry, with millions of people world wide (particularly Asia) watching matches between renowned, skilled players who themselves are competing for rather large cash prizes.

 

[MalagAste]

Richard Garriott thought people would be "nice" and follow some sort of order or his virtues...

Shows what little he did understand about human nature.

 

[Merlin]

Okay, a handful or two sub for the PvP, most of the people talking about it nostalgically aren't among them.

 

[Merlin]

Richard Garriott thought people would be "nice" and follow some sort of order or his virtues...

Shows what little he did understand about human nature.

I think he knew human nature well enough that all the virtues had respective anti-virtues...

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

Richard Garriott thought people would be "nice" and follow some sort of order or his virtues...

Shows what little he did understand about human nature.

Richard Garriot hoped that people would retain some level of "virtue" in a world without law, but by no means did he fully think everyone would.

 

[MalagAste]

I think he knew human nature well enough that all the virtues had respective anti-virtues...

Yeah well he should have known that it would be a cluster of scammers, cheaters, haters, and exploiters. And I still think that had they put a heavy hand to much of it back in the day we wouldn't have near the issue we do now.

Though listening to folk talk about a vast number of other games like WoW, EQ and such it's obvious they are everywhere. However IMO had they treated scam artists like they did people who said the "R" word then UO would have been a much better place.

 

[MalagAste]

Richard Garriot hoped that people would retain some level of "virtue" in a world without law, but by no means did he fully think everyone would.

No but he also thought they would be few and far between and that others would stop them and drive them out or make them conform.... but then he didn't expect anyone to kill his character in-game either. LOL

 

[FrejaSP]

Richard Garriott thought people would be "nice" and follow some sort of order or his virtues...

Shows what little he did understand about human nature.

I believe he did understand a lot more than you think, problem was, he should had made a few Happy Shards, with very limit PvP, for the ones, who did like the risk of dying to other players.
It works fine on Siege, always did. The ones, who can't handle the risk, stay of the shard and the ones, who only want to hurt others to feel powerful or to gain easy stuff was kicked of the shard.
I was red on Siege for 10+ years. As I was known as a roleplayer, I was treated with respect. The blue anti PK's would go easy on me, so would the reds.
I was red on Freja on Atlantic from 1998 - 1999, and also there, I survived fine as a lonely red, even when a few more kids survived there.
A player, who ruined his reputation on Siege, from killing newbies and crafters without any mercy or dry looting his victim/enemies, would get it hard on Siege but not as hard as the one, who would scam people or worse.

Now with Gen, guild and alliance chat, it's very hard to be an ass and hide in the game, the words will get around and I believe it's about time to changes the rules.
Now where players can transfer between shards, choose 1-2 low popular shards, tell players, that after 2 months, they will changes to PvP+, so all facets but Trammel will become Felucca ruleset and reds will be allowed to go everywhere but can't attack blue in Trammel. Blue can attack reds in Trammel but it will make them orange to reds for 20 min. Outside Trammel, they won't be flaged orange for attacking reds.

Yes I know, some players will end up with a house in Fel zone, but with house teleporters, they can easy make a safe way to get there.

 

[FrejaSP]

Yeah well he should have known that it would be a cluster of scammers, cheaters, haters, and exploiters. And I still think that had they put a heavy hand to much of it back in the day we wouldn't have near the issue we do now.

Player Justice do work fine with Fel ruleset. The problem is, they are safe in Trammel, there you can only call a GM on them.
You can't set scammers, cheaters, haters, and exploiters = red players because I had seen alot scammers, cheaters, haters, and exploiters staying blue to be safe for player Justice.
I had also seen reds who hunt this blue trouble makers, but never would kill an innocent player.

 

[MalagAste]

Player Justice do work fine with Fel ruleset. The problem is, they are safe in Trammel, there you can only call a GM on them.
You can't set scammers, cheaters, haters, and exploiters = red players because I had seen alot scammers, cheaters, haters, and exploiters staying blue to be safe for player Justice.
I had also seen reds who hunt this blue trouble makers, but never would kill an innocent player.

I've seen all sorts of players over the years... but the wisest person I know said long ago that it's the BAD memories that stick in your mind forever and the good ones are soon forgotten. Also of note one bad experience will be told to 100 people in a day... but good experiences are rarely shared. Odd eh? But it's true. People like to complain. It's kind of how Mob Rules work as well... everyone knows its BAD and they shouldn't do it but when others around you do it often your compelled to join in for fear of retaliation.

But when you think about that think about the fact that those who quit because of Negative or Bad experiences aren't going around saying what a wonderful Game UO was.... instead they tell 100's of people how it sucked. And so therefore in the same note very, very few folk who've quit over the years but loved UO will ever talk about it.

And also you can go years without dealing with a Scammer or a Cheat or a hater.... etc.. but once you run into one again all the other negative experiences surface again and all you can think of is that and how horrible they are and you think it happens more often than it does because you rarely remember all the wonderful experiences as well.

 

[MalagAste]

And think on this... with that proven philosophy in mind think on this.... it would take 10 nice players doing 10 kind acts each to make up for the impact that just one player who scams one person has on the community.

 

[FrejaSP]

I've seen all sorts of players over the years... but the wisest person I know said long ago that it's the BAD memories that stick in your mind forever and the good ones are soon forgotten. Also of note one bad experience will be told to 100 people in a day... but good experiences are rarely shared. Odd eh? But it's true. People like to complain. It's kind of how Mob Rules work as well... everyone knows its BAD and they shouldn't do it but when others around you do it often your compelled to join in for fear of retaliation.

That's why so many believe the old days was so bad. I don't care about the rumers that make make five feather becomes five hens.
Most of the ones, who told the rumers, never left towns and was never killed of PK's. I lived outside town and placed my first house in a PK village, so I have my own memery about how it was.

But when you think about that think about the fact that those who quit because of Negative or Bad experiences aren't going around saying what a wonderful Game UO was.... instead they tell 100's of people how it sucked. And so therefore in the same note very, very few folk who've quit over the years but loved UO will ever talk about it.

Only way to changes this are to prove them wrong, start with one Felucca ruleset shard, players can transfer to and from it and make their own opinion.

And also you can go years without dealing with a Scammer or a Cheat or a hater.... etc.. but once you run into one again all the other negative experiences surface again and all you can think of is that and how horrible they are and you think it happens more often than it does because you rarely remember all the wonderful experiences as well.

Scammer or a Cheat or a hater.... etc have very little to do with the Felucca rule set and they won't survive well there if there is no trammel to hide in
.

 

[Kiss Of Death]

I like the idea to make all felucca with VVV rules also. Don't want to revamp reds/pkers? All vvv!!! This is SPARTAAaa!!! If you want to play with cappuccino and croissant you have:
Trammel, Ilshnear, Eodon, Tokuno etcetc


InfernO will come to get you

 

[King Greg]

@Merlin

The fc 1 buff isn't mandatory for most players suits, but it does give more wiggle room between jewels and weapon/shield. Just a few days ago I convinced a player to use the fc town buff so they could use a sc -1 bokuto and add hit lower attack in the faster casting place. Also, a lot of players wanting to build mage archer suits these days, which is easiest if they can use sc -1 bows.

FC +1 is also very useful for mirror images, shadow jump, JOAT Spellweaving spells, Teleport scrolls. On Non mage toons

Personally on my archer I do prefer the Ssi/Hci buffs But that's just me.

sadly, most players I deal with either have no idea what a town buff is, or think its a lot of work to get.

I probably spend 2 hours a week showing players how they work.

 

[Merlin]

@Merlin

The fc 1 buff isn't mandatory for most players suits, but it does give more wiggle room between jewels and weapon/shield. Just a few days ago I convinced a player to use the fc town buff so they could use a sc -1 bokuto and add hit lower attack in the faster casting place. Also, a lot of players wanting to build mage archer suits these days, which is easiest if they can use sc -1 bows.

FC +1 is also very useful for mirror images, shadow jump, JOAT Spellweaving spells, Teleport scrolls. On Non mage toons

Personally on my archer I do prefer the Ssi/Hci buffs But that's just me.

sadly, most players I deal with either have no idea what a town buff is, or think its a lot of work to get.

I probably spend 2 hours a week showing players how they work.

I hear that... I know FC has higher imbue weight than some of the other buffs and I never doubted the usefulness of FC +1. My general argument was that getting more people to PvP or go red will require more than just adding town buffs, and further that just because someone wants to have it to make their uber template/suit doesn't mean that its a need that requires developer involvement.

 

[dukarlo]

The biggest hindrance to PVP is and always has been the creation of Trammel. For 15 years now players have started the game in complete safety and have never had a reason to pvp. PvP at one time was a necessary activity just to play the game. UO use to reward clever players. Now UO rewards players seeking the easiest route. The vast majority of old school pvp type players have been pushed out of UO or just simply lost to time. The game has not been geared towards pvp for A LONG TIME. The player base now is completely different. The game is geared towards the masses. We can argue all we want how to get more and better pvp but with the lack of pvpers out there its never gonna happen. The direction the game went 15 years ago slowly killed pvp despite the best efforts by the remaining pvpers to keep it alive. The masses don't necessarily equate to pvp especially in a game that has discouraged it.

 

[drcossack]

The biggest hindrance to PVP is and always has been the creation of Trammel. For 15 years now players have started the game in complete safety and have never had a reason to pvp. PvP at one time was a necessary activity just to play the game. UO use to reward clever players. Now UO rewards players seeking the easiest route. The vast majority of old school pvp type players have been pushed out of UO or just simply lost to time. The game has not been geared towards pvp for A LONG TIME. The player base now is completely different. The game is geared towards the masses. We can argue all we want how to get more and better pvp but with the lack of pvpers out there its never gonna happen. The direction the game went 15 years ago slowly killed pvp despite the best efforts by the remaining pvpers to keep it alive. The masses don't necessarily equate to pvp especially in a game that has discouraged it.

Thing is, even after Trammel, and AoS (which is when I started playing. A LOT of players hated it, since it made the game item-based), PvP was alive and well. On LS, whether it was Yew (which I tended to avoid after going Red), spawns, or Wrong Roof for duels, you could find pvp any time you wanted. And it was fun.

Unfortunately, for about a year after AoS, the haves ruled over the have-nots. You needed 4/6 (and later 5/6, I don't remember exactly when people discovered daggering) just to have a chance of competing. Then Publish 25 happened, and the changes from it (except for the SDI cap, which wasn't 40% back then. I think it was 25% total, but I don't remember anymore, since it's been so long) are still in place 11 years later.

Speaking strictly as a mage (my PvP experience on dexxers is VERY limited, since I've only dabbled with them in the past year): While gear was still a requirement after Pub 25, it was much easier to enter PvP since you didn't need the Orny, Inquisitor's Resolution, Arcane Shield, and a ring with FC 1 (or 3 FCR, should you not have access to the IR's) as entry requirements. While those items certainly made building a suit easier, artifacts weren't required after Pub 25, but armor was. Barbed kits gave you the best non-artifact pieces, but you had to burn a ****load of them to even get MAYBE one good piece. On occasion, I screwed around with suit building on Test, and it took a bunch of charges to make a few usable pieces for the equip slots that weren't taken up by artifacts.

Fast forward to 2015. There's still pvp, but it's pretty much the same people on every shard now, since there's nowhere near as many people playing, for whatever reason. As I said before: at this point, people can't use gear as an excuse for not wanting to pvp, since everyone has access to uber monster loot, and runic reforging exists as well.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

This game has always been item based. Even in it's inception what were people farming for? Oh ya, magical weapons and armor off monsters so they could have the upper hand in pvp. It's how it has been and always will be.

 

[drcossack]

This game has always been item based. Even in it's inception what were people farming for? Oh ya, magical weapons and armor off monsters so they could have the upper hand in pvp. It's how it has been and always will be.

True enough; in that regard, the game hasn't changed. But, unless you had a bunch of the old-school Item Bless Deeds (and I remember a guy in '07 who had a fully blessed suit), those items could also be looted when you died, since there was no insurance. Item properties and high-end armor have just gotten more insane/powerful and more widespread over the years.

 

[OREOGL]

This game has always been item based. Even in it's inception what were people farming for? Oh ya, magical weapons and armor off monsters so they could have the upper hand in pvp. It's how it has been and always will be.

This is arguable, there was a finite amount of items you could get with limited skill sets.

BAsically if you were rolling around invulnerable armor, vanquishing weapon etc you were top tier. But you throw in the loss of items upon death it made it less likely for someone to do this since it's only take one good gank to lose it all.

The argument here is that you were competitive running around in a gm made suit. If you did that now it is a quick inevitable death.

For a while I recall pvping with nothing but a weapon when I was red because the pack horse could only hold so many things in the stable.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

This is arguable, there was a finite amount of items you could get with limited skill sets.

BAsically if you were rolling around invulnerable armor, vanquishing weapon etc you were top tier. But you throw in the loss of items upon death it made it less likely for someone to do this since it's only take one good gank to lose it all.

The argument here is that you were competitive running around in a gm made suit. If you did that now it is a quick inevitable death.

For a while I recall pvping with nothing but a weapon when I was red because the pack horse could only hold so many things in the stable.

To an extent, but I had at least 40 vanq weapons in my bank at all times. You grind harder for that simple reason. Yes you could PK with a minimal suit since most players also wore minimal suits out of fear of losing it. But once things started to become more common the level of play went up which required you to start using your weapons. I couldn't tell you how many suits I sold back to the people I killed.

If you wanted to be competitive you NEEDED the items, which again, would make PvP item based.

*Edit: There still is technically a finite amount of items as well. I don't think that is the right choice of wording for your argument. I understand what you are implying, but technically the options are not infinite.

 

[OREOGL]

To an extent, but I had at least 40 vanq weapons in my bank at all times. You grind harder for that simple reason. Yes you could PK with a minimal suit since most players also wore minimal suits out of fear of losing it. But once things started to become more common the level of play went up which required you to start using your weapons. I couldn't tell you how many suits I sold back to the people I killed.

If you wanted to be competitive you NEEDED the items, which again, would make PvP item based.

*Edit: There still is technically a finite amount of items as well. I don't think that is the right choice of wording for your argument. I understand what you are implying, but technically the options are not infinite.

I guess I should have said more finite, but you get the point.

You could still be competitive without so much complication and there was less depth to adjust your suit around.

 

[Cetric]

So many "Anti-Fel" and "Anti-PVP" players hoping in here... wtf. who pissed in your cheerios? I don't come on here bashing tram rulesets saying its a waste of developer time.. lol.

If fell and pvp didn't exists, most of that junk that gets farmed for artys and loot would be worth practically nothing without competitive pvp.

 

[Aran]

So many "Anti-Fel" and "Anti-PVP" players hoping in here... wtf. who pissed in your cheerios? I don't come on here bashing tram rulesets saying its a waste of developer time.. lol.

If fell and pvp didn't exists, most of that junk that gets farmed for artys and loot would be worth practically nothing without competitive pvp.

I'd rather things were worth less so more people could afford them than there be a cabal of violent children hoarding all the spawn, ready and eager to attack anyone else who dares to try to get some on their own.

 

[I Actually PVP]

I'd rather things were worth less so more people could afford them than there be a cabal of violent children hoarding all the spawn, ready and eager to attack anyone else who dares to try to get some on their own.

And who's stopping you from getting better at PVP? Oh yeah, yourself....

We all were bad at one point. Raid the spawn, get killed, go back try again, learn what you're doing, get recruited to a guild and then run the spawn yourself.

PVP is like golf, we were all ****ty, clueless beginners at one point...we just stuck with it.

It's a shame how quickly this thread got derailed (and having gone through past posts on PVP, it looks like this ALWAYS happens).

As Cetric said, who the hell pissed in all of your cheerios??? I don't say diddly squat about game features that don't affect me (and I'm the person who's paid 100+ mil for your Tram-Only content NUMEROUS times). Without PVP, Tram would be pointless; like it or not, we're the end market for anything that's not deco. Would think some of you would get that and quit being selfish, entitled ****s. Alas.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

I like the idea to make all felucca with VVV rules also. Don't want to revamp reds/pkers? All vvv!!! This is SPARTAAaa!!! If you want to play with cappuccino and croissant you have:
Trammel, Ilshnear, Eodon, Tokuno etcetc


InfernO will come to get you

All that does is make anyone attackable anywhere. This would hinder pvp more than it would help it. What we need is content along with condensing the pvp population. With people being afraid of PK's or having hatred towards PK's killing them in fel they are forgetting that their were Reds and Blues that would search out the pks in order to kill them because they actually wanted a challenge. In today's UO we would find a balance between Pk's and PvPers. I for one would love to hear in GC that someone just got killed in shame because I would recall there instantly in order to find the PK...

A start would be deleting T2A from Fel entirely thus condensing champ spawns.

 

[Aran]

And who's stopping you from getting better at PVP? Oh yeah, yourself....

We all were bad at one point. Raid the spawn, get killed, go back try again, learn what you're doing, get recruited to a guild and then run the spawn yourself.

PVP is like golf, we were all ****ty, clueless beginners at one point...we just stuck with it.

It's a shame how quickly this thread got derailed (and having gone through past posts on PVP, it looks like this ALWAYS happens).

As Cetric said, who the hell pissed in all of your cheerios??? I don't say diddly squat about game features that don't affect me (and I'm the person who's paid 100+ mil for your Tram-Only content NUMEROUS times). Without PVP, Tram would be pointless; like it or not, we're the end market for anything that's not deco. Would think some of you would get that and quit being selfish, entitled ****s. Alas.

I don't like golfing, and I don't like PvP either. There's no sense practicing something you don't like.

Without PvP, UO would be perfect.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

I don't like golfing, and I don't like PvP either. There's no sense practicing something you don't like.

Without PvP, UO would be perfect.

Without you, these forums would be perfect.

 

[I Actually PVP]

I don't like golfing, and I don't like PvP either. There's no sense practicing something you don't like.

Without PvP, UO would be perfect.

Ok... it's like anything competitive in life, you don't start out the best, you have to WORK and TRY to get good. Sorry you're lazy and don't feel like putting in the effort (why should we all be punished for this).

Again, I give your Tram crap purpose and don't say jack about new features that don't affect me...why can't you do the same?

Back on topic, can we get a Dev in here to take out all of the Richard Garriot and Aran unrelated posts? I thought we were having a good back and forth when people who actually PVP were talking about content and purpose.

Many thanks!

 

[Aran]

Ok... it's like anything competitive in life, you don't start out the best, you have to WORK and TRY to get good. Sorry you're lazy and don't feel like putting in the effort (why should we all be punished for this).

Again, I give your Tram crap purpose and don't say jack about new features that don't affect me...why can't you do the same?

Back on topic, can we get a Dev in here to take out all of the Richard Garriot and Aran unrelated posts? I thought we were having a good back and forth when people who actually PVP were talking about content and purpose.

Many thanks!

I don't want to get better at golf, it isn't any fun. Same with PvP.

Putting something in the game that requires you to PvP to get it affects me more than something put in the game that doesn't require PvP affects you. My posts about disliking it and wishing it would be removed are just as valid as your comments praising it.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

I don't want to get better at golf, it isn't any fun. Same with PvP.

Putting something in the game that requires you to PvP to get it affects me more than something put in the game that doesn't require PvP affects you. My posts about disliking it and wishing it would be removed are just as valid as your comments praising it.

In a thread that has a sole focus on improving PvP your comments actually are not valid in way, shape or form. They are a desperate attempt to troll. Now, if you hate it so much feel free to start a thread about removing pvp from UO entirely.

Now, please be gone, self-centered bigot.