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Enough of Outsourcing Customer Service, EA (And What's With Tax?)

K

kennykilleduo

Guest
Again they could make it free to play , save us taxes..

They actually were nice ( hmm EA being nice..
) by eating up the tax portion , in the long run , its giving EA a little more money to add to our game..Hmm , sounds scary..
 
B

Babble

Guest
How could I control by the way if ea pays the taxes in the countries and that they not keep it?
 
F

Fayled Dhreams

Guest
Read the Linky
Yes little brother Canada, and his sister, and your little dog! Toto too ...
 
I

imported_Heartseeker

Guest
Do you enjoy rubbing people the wrong way?

By your postings one would think that you do.

You ain't that smart, k?
 
O

OptPrime

Guest
Some people have a lot of time on their hands. Ive seen more mocking posts, then helpful ones from fayled. That's for sure.
 
I

imported_mr.blackmage

Guest
uh huh.... but my account is registered under a guy in Iowa (or something like that, it's been awhile since I've checked it). So what does that mean? Where are they getting their info? Certaintly not from my UO account. Bottom line is, my province charges a 14% gst, and last I checked, I don't get charged an extra 14% on top of ANYTHING that I already paid for (internet access). So that's why it is confusing to me.
 
I

imported_gawin

Guest
What I want to know is New York States tax rate is 7%.

Not 8.25%

Source <u>http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/notices/n05_8.pdf</u>

The base rate is 7% and any other charges are county surcharges.

Can you please explain how you can Over charge taxes? And where you got the figure of 8.25% as that is NOT a tax rate any where in the state at all.
 
N

Nystle

Guest
I think we still need some answers from EA.
So how about it?

To try to summarize the list of questions I'm seeing in this thread...

1. Why are some of us being charged more sales tax than the rate specified?
Example, Radian being charged the 14% sales tax rate than what Illinois is being charge.

2. Why does it appear that the Department of Revenue for many states know anything about this new tax?
RaDian did the work for Illinois, and here in Wisconsin they are pretty much in the same mind set. They aren't aware of any tax law that requires a state tax being applied to a subscription service for an online game.

3. Why are we being taxed when it's questionable at BEST when regarding taxes for an internet subscription to a game and not internet provided?

4. Why are Canadian provinces being charged a US sales tax??

5. Why were we never publicly notified about these taxes in the first place and left to find out about them when we got this months bill?? (Did you think we wouldn't notice the increase?? honestly...)

I think thats the gist of the questions but I'm gonna throw one other thing to think about into the mix for everyone to think about... EA moved the team and equipment for UO to Virginia. While I'm not fully aware of the state taxes or anything in Virginia, I know that it's cheaper to live and run things there that includes servers. But now that the move is complete we automatically see this new tax which was never pre announced...

Interesting enough to be investigated in my mind. Anyone live in Virginia who can maybe elaborate the tax situation there? In my mind IF they were to start adding state taxes wouldn't it seem logical to charge the state tax in which it's providing service since most states aren't charging taxes for an online service subscription as opposed to a tax for providing internet service???
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Ive seen more mocking posts, then helpful ones from fayled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just put her on ignore and you get this nice message everytime she posts:

*** You are ignoring this user ***

Much better.
 
I

imported_Ilysess

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

I think we still need some answers from EA.
So how about it?

To try to summarize the list of questions I'm seeing in this thread...

1. Why are some of us being charged more sales tax than the rate specified?
Example, Radian being charged the 14% sales tax rate than what Illinois is being charge.

2. Why does it appear that the Department of Revenue for many states know anything about this new tax?
RaDian did the work for Illinois, and here in Wisconsin they are pretty much in the same mind set. They aren't aware of any tax law that requires a state tax being applied to a subscription service for an online game.

3. Why are we being taxed when it's questionable at BEST when regarding taxes for an internet subscription to a game and not internet provided?

4. Why are Canadian provinces being charged a US sales tax??

5. Why were we never publicly notified about these taxes in the first place and left to find out about them when we got this months bill?? (Did you think we wouldn't notice the increase?? honestly...)


[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent questions

Just as an update, I called up some old coworkers at Canada Revenue Agency and asked them about this tax that EA is applying, not shockingly it would appear that noone can find any information about Canada charging the same taxes that EA clearly advises "some states" are beginning to charge. They however agreed to look into it more closely and give me a call back with whatever information they do/dont find in regards to canadians paying taxes on online subscriptions.

I would like to add to your above questions, what EA plans to do about the incorrect tax percentages that they have already billed to certain subscribers such as the OP and individuals in Ontario and other provinces where they have the incorrect percentage marked?
 
M

MysticSim

Guest
you know... even here in Canada, If I buy something from another province (or state as you all call them) and their tax is LOWER than it is where I live, they can only charge me the lower tax.

Why is it that in the good ol US of A that they cant do the same thing as the subscription is based there in good ol California, where conveniently on that tax list that Jeremy linked has 0% tax. Not to mention that ALL of the tax rates on the Canadian portion of that list is incorrect. Charging provincial and federal tax for a service is just downright incorrect. Nice cash grab for you guys at EA I guess. And you should update the list to a correct tax value as the federal sales tax even decreased since Jan. 1st.

Now, if someone from EA would like to come back here (other than Jeremy) and explain why specifically they are doing something wrong and overcharging in the taxation area in a clear manner that would be awesome. Till then, I will continue to not pay tax on my subscription.
 
G

Guest

Guest
http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=14659

United States

Arizona - 8.10%
Connecticut - 1.00%
District of Columbia - 5.75%
Hawaii - 4.00%
Indiana - 6.00%
Illinois - 6.25%
Kansas - 7.00%
Kentucky - 6.00%
Louisiana - 8.75%
Massachusetts - 5.00%
Michigan - 6.00%
Minnesota - 6.50%
Nebraska - 6.50%
New York - 8.25%
New Jersey - 7.00%
Pennsylvania - 7.00%
South Carolina - 8.00%
Tennessee - 7.00%
Texas - 8.25%
Utah - 6.60%
Washington - 8.10%
Wisconsin - 5.50%
Canada

Alberta - 6%
British Columbia - 6%
Manitoba - 6%
New Brunswick - 14%
Newfoundland and Labrador - 14%
Northwest Territories - 6%
Nova Scotia - 14%
Nunavut - 6%
Ontario - 14%
Price Edward Island - 6%
Quebec- 6%
Saskatchewan- 6%
Yukon- 6%

IMO, this bit of info should be stickied to the top of the forum.
I doubt EA is charging a larger tax then that which is listed. Because if they were, then they'd be committing tax fraud.

On the other hand, Cable and DSl subscribers pay a "regulatory fee". Now try and see who is charging that fee. At DSLreports, they looked into it, and there is no regulatory fee charged by the state or fed. governments. Its just a made up fee for the companies to get a little extra without increasing rates.
 
G

Guest

Guest
If you read some of the responses, it's not that they are doing it but that the percentages are LARGER than the sales tax percentage in &lt;insert area&gt; - especially in some of the Canadian areas.

Example - the NY percentage is NYC. I live several hundred miles from there and have a different tax level (slightly lower). 75 miles west it's lower still.
 
G

Guest

Guest
My guess,

Once the EA lawyers review this, and if we the p(l)ayers get a response.

I am quite sure the answer will be, We (EAMythic) had been absorbing this cost for sometime now, since we (EAMtyhic) are required to complain with all laws in all countries which we operate, we (EAMythic) will be collecting the tax(es) forwith, also we (EAMythic) will be recovering the costs we (EAMythic) incurred by absorbing these taxes.

Almost every company I know of passes on their costs to the customer and if EAMythic screwed up and forgot to collect this, they are dang sure going to recoupe what they laid out.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Don't get me wrong ... I understand why EA is enacting this. It's the levels as used by the 3rd party ... they appear to incorrect in the main. THAT is the real issue IMO. And I have had this "overtaxing" situation in other areas ... but they specifically tagged my account with the correct level and we've not had problems since.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Exactly. If the tax needs to be paid and EA deem to pass the cost of that tax onto us the customer then so be it.

However ... that tax needs to be charged at the correct rate. Charging us extra shouldnt happen and needs an explanation. Same with Value Added Tax that is charged DOUBLE by EA to UK customers.
 
G

Guest

Guest
My guess Craftsman,

to why your VAT is charged as double? Laziness on EAMythics part, to cover the currency conversion costs.
 

RaDian FlGith

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

Here is the Vertex Inc: Tax Cybrary - Internet Tax by State website:

http://www.vertexinc.com/taxcybrary/internet/state_by_state.asp

[/ QUOTE ]Which ironically says:
<blockquote><hr>

Illinois does not consider the transfer of information over the Internet as a transfer of tangible personal property, therefore the charges are not taxable. However, as stated in IL Regulation Sec. 130.1935, "canned software is considered to be tangible personal property regardless of the form in which it is transferred or transmitted…". Therefore, charges for downloading software via the Internet are taxable.

[/ QUOTE ]Patch updates to the Ultima Online game is NOT a repurchase of the software; I paid tax on the software when I purchased it from EB Games. The $12.99 per month is not a continual repurchase of software, which further makes me wonder why I'm being charged tax...

On other notes, Jeremy, as soon as I get home I'll send you an email with my account info. Sorry I haven't been on since Friday.
 
G

Guest

Guest
*RTLRPFD*

FYI: Blockbuster, Netflix and others are charging this too.
 
G

Guest

Guest
rtlfc

Jeremy, I take it that you have stopped replying to this post for one of 2 reasons..

a) you are looking into it further and will be giving us an explanation soon

b) you are hoping it will all blow over and slip away unoticed

If its a) then a quick post confirming this would be appreciated.

If there is no reply then I'll assume its b)
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote>I take it that you have stopped replying to this post for one of 2 reasons..</blockquote>If that's for Jeremy, then if she is pursuing this with Legal or other corporate bigwigs, you should realize by now the answer is not always cut-and-dried.

I bet that behind the scenes in places we cannot hear of, there is quite a stir because of the examples we all have shown as to the inaccuracy of the intended percentages. Let's let that get through the slowly grinding wheels of EA corporate-ness first.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote>I take it that you have stopped replying to this post for one of 2 reasons..</blockquote>If that's for Jeremy, then if she is pursuing this with Legal or other corporate bigwigs, you should realize by now the answer is not always cut-and-dried.

I bet that behind the scenes in places we cannot hear of, there is quite a stir because of the examples we all have shown as to the inaccuracy of the intended percentages. Let's let that get through the slowly grinding wheels of EA corporate-ness first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously...billing/service charge, and tax collection boo-boos, when they occur, are no trivial matter. I have lost track of the amount of class action suit notices that have been mailed to me the last few years against cellular service providers, credit card issuers, and various other service providers.

Personally, I am not expecting an answer very soon, unless it turns out that their knowledge base article simply incorrectly describes the charges, and how they will be computed.

-Skylark
 

RaDian FlGith

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

Jeremy, I take it that you have stopped replying to this post for one of 2 reasons..

[/ QUOTE ]She did say that it wouldn't be a quick answer... and honestly, I'm okay with it taking awhile to research, because if they research this, they're going to find out that, at least in Illinois, there's no reason to be charging taxes for access to UO.

Who knows what else they'll uncover.

But in the end, I hope they do their homework, because I honestly think what happened is someone said, "Oh, we're supposed to be charging taxes," and they did, not fully checking into the situation. Given that my state DOR knows nothing of a tax change affecting subscriptions, I'm doubting the veracity of the statement on EA's site -- which I understand wasn't put there by Jeremy or even EA Mythic.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>


Here is the Vertex Inc: Tax Cybrary - Internet Tax by State website:

http://www.vertexinc.com/taxcybrary/internet/state_by_state.asp

[/ QUOTE ]
According to this site, nothing has changed for Pennsylvania. So how is EA charging Pennsylvanians 7% sales tax?

Also, by charging a sales tax for subscription, doesn't that also go against what they have set in the TOS about us not actually owning the account and items within the account? Would they not become "property" of the account owner by charging a sales tax?

[/ QUOTE ]

According to this site, Pennsylvania is a full participating member of the SSTP. Maybe it's just the vertex site that is out of date, but I doubt the software being used to collect these taxes will be out of date. No state wants to miss out on these hundreds of thousands of dollars they are losing due to internet sales and services.
 
G

Guest

Guest
RaDian, what are you local and county tax rates? Add that to the state sales tax rate and you will probably come close to the amount you were charged.
 
A

Aethelstan

Guest
I called PAs DOR, im waiting on an answer about this tax from them. One thing that was verified right on the spot was that PA charges 6% sales tax, EA has listed 7%...
I think that calculator is broken.

*EDIT* I just got off the phone with Pennsylvania DOR, i read word for word what is written on the vortex site for Pennsylvania sales tax. the DOR "manager" wrote it down word for word and passed it on to his "manager" after they reviewed it, they concluded online game subscriptions do not fall under this tax law. So why am i being charged for a tax that doesn't exist? im also being charged 7% instead of 6%
 
G

Guest

Guest
Still no answers?

Maybe EA is hoping to just ignore the matter and it will go away...
 

RaDian FlGith

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

Still no answers?

Maybe EA is hoping to just ignore the matter and it will go away...

[/ QUOTE ]Jeremy assures me they're looking into it, but they've got until my next billing cycle to figure it out before I start cancelling accounts. One of their "lovely" customer service people just kept giving me run around answers via email, just quoting that they had to follow their tax policy, couldn't provide any information, and then told me that he considered the matter to be closed, that all future emails regarding it would be ignored, and that if I felt I had to take legal action (which I never mentioned doing) that I should go ahead and do so.

Oh, and of course, that I should research the topic. Which, of course, I was trying to do with the company that seems to think it has to tax me.

*shrug*

I could go through the effort of going to court over it... but really, over a game? I'd just rather stop paying for it, and then never spend another dime on an EA product.
 

Ezekiel Zane

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I posted in another thread last week that I was charged 24 cents more than my subscription fee + 8.1% WA tax.

WA is 8.1%

$59.99 x 8.1% is $4.86 for $64.85.

They billed me for $65.09.

I imagine everyone is being overcharged on this.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

I'll send that on to the billing team - obviously, something's not right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I started a new account and I was charged 1 dollar two times

so $2 on top of the monthly fee, splain dat one
 
G

Guest

Guest
RTLFC ......

Let me chime in with my .02

My billing address is in Texas. So from the Vertex we get:
-------
TEXAS

Internet Access Charges
Effective October 1, 1999, the first $25 of a monthly charge for Internet Access Services is exempt.

Source: Texas Code Section 151.325

Sales of Goods Purchased Over the Internet:
In Texas, sales of goods over the Internet are treated the same as sales of tangible personal property through more traditional channels and, therefore, subject to the rules of nexus and Texas’s sales/use tax laws. Texas has interpreted nexus to include servers that reside within the state. For example, if a florist located in Texas takes an order on its Web site, which is hosted on a server in Texas, but delivery is made outside of Texas by a third party, charges for the order are subject to Texas sales /use tax.

Information/Software Purchased via Downloading from the Internet:
Information downloaded from the Internet is taxable as tangible personal property if the server from which the user obtains Internet access is located in Texas.

Source: Texas Tax Policy News, November 1996
------------------

The part that we are concerned about, for this EA tax is the last paragraph.

EA is claiming that my subscription is information therefore they must collect tax.
There are a couple things that are a little troubling with this thinking. First of all, it is written as Information/Software and continues to discuss that it is taxed as tangible personal property in the same sentance.

To me the information I recieve from EA isn't tangible personal property it's not something I own or can own. It would seem that a better iterpretation of this type of information would be say, a spread sheet template. The spread sheet isn't a software program. It's information that I purchased. I own it. I don't have intellectual rights to it, but I can own and use the spread sheet template.

There are numerous items that fit into this category besides spread sheets. Some of these items are: Recipes, Manuals, How-To Instructions, Images, etc...

Now the second part doesn't apply to most folks but it does apply to me. Most folks billing zipcode is where they recieve all of this supposed taxable information from EA. This doesn't apply to me. During the year, I spend close to 75% on the road. So, this taxable information isn't being recieved in Texas at my billing zipcode. As I type this, I'm in Kansas. It would seem then that they should be following my Log IN IP's and taxing me accordingly. I'm likely to be in one of 8 states at any given time.

I also find it troubling, that more than a few folks are reporting %'s that aren't in line with the stated collections for thier state or the lsiting for thier state is wrong. Isn't it interesting that none of these supposed miscalculations, are in the favor of the customer?

From Jeremy....
... but what had happened was that for a while we were just eating the cost of those taxes. Finally someone at EA decided to set up a system whereby the user would pay sales taxes.

I'm sure Jeremy was told this, but I doubt this is a reality. When has EA done anything out of the goodness of the heart for thier subsribers? They have always been about the bottom line, and always will be.

If this goes on for a couple years, I can see class action written all over this.

Just my .02,
Q
 
G

Guest

Guest
So ..... EA tell us that evrything in the game remains the property of EA and we dont own any of it ourselves, then they are charging us a tax on tangible property that apparently we own? Cant have it both ways ... If I dont own it then I shouldnt pay the tax, if I do own it then its mine to do with as I will right?
 
B

Babble

Guest
No is all ea#s.
And as far as I see it they do not charge you a tax.

They just add an amount to your monthly fee, depending where you live.

And as they have more work to pay it they charge a bit extra.
 

RaDian FlGith

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
<blockquote><hr>

RTLFC ......

Let me chime in with my .02

My billing address is in Texas. So from the Vertex we get:
-------
TEXAS

Internet Access Charges
Effective October 1, 1999, the first $25 of a monthly charge for Internet Access Services is exempt.

Source: Texas Code Section 151.325

Sales of Goods Purchased Over the Internet:
In Texas, sales of goods over the Internet are treated the same as sales of tangible personal property through more traditional channels and, therefore, subject to the rules of nexus and Texas’s sales/use tax laws. Texas has interpreted nexus to include servers that reside within the state. For example, if a florist located in Texas takes an order on its Web site, which is hosted on a server in Texas, but delivery is made outside of Texas by a third party, charges for the order are subject to Texas sales /use tax.

Information/Software Purchased via Downloading from the Internet:
Information downloaded from the Internet is taxable as tangible personal property if the server from which the user obtains Internet access is located in Texas.

Source: Texas Tax Policy News, November 1996

[/ QUOTE ]Okay, a couple of things... tangible personal property is something you get use out of. While perhaps not the "I can touch and feel it" version of tangible, it would still be taxable. As for your taxation and where you receive the information, it's really sort of a moot point, because you are representing yourself as living at an address in Texas (where, I imagine, your bank account is also tied). Your residency doesn't change as you drive through states.

However, the part you should be questioning EA on is this:

<blockquote><hr>

Information/Software Purchased via Downloading from the Internet:
Information downloaded from the Internet is taxable as tangible personal property if the server from which the user obtains Internet access is located in Texas.

[/ QUOTE ]It's not. Therefore, as far as this law applies, you shouldn't be paying tax on that information. {Edit: Hmmm... just re-read that it indicates the server from which the user obtains Internet access... that seems a bit strange to me, but maybe it's how it works in Texas. I would think it would apply to the server the information came from, not the internet access, but I could be wrong.}

Now, depending upon any Use Tax that Texas might have, there might still be a need, but I'm not up on Texas tax law.

Here in Illinois, based on everything I've researched thus far, we don't charge taxes on information downloaded from the internet (regardless of where it's at), but we do have a Use Tax on out of state purchases that is set at 6.25% (which is something we typically pay ourselves). However, EA is currently charging me 8% (which is my city/local tax, but not how Use Tax functions) on something that my state doesn't require tax on.

But I'm in continued communication with the Department of Revenue here in Illinois, and I guess we'll see what comes of it all.
 
I

imported_mr.blackmage

Guest
Well, if EA decides to raise the monthly rate for UO (which they already did, and delivered absolutely nothing that they promised the $2 increase would be used for), then that's it for my periodic reactivations to see what PvP is like. No, it won't break me, and yes, I smoke that much in a day anyways, but it's the principle here. A 10 year old game shouldn't be charging more than any other MMORPG out there, it's just silly.
 
B

Babble

Guest
Well ea says they pay more and it is 'only' a little rise.
Come on be nice, maybe an EA manager can afford a new sports car then!
 

RaDian FlGith

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
RTLFC...

Well, I finally got an upper response from the Illinois Department of Revenue, and have solved one problem, but still have the other. The tax, as it stands in Illinois, is, indeed, legal... However:

<blockquote><hr>

Dear {my name here},

Any refund has to come from the company as this is their tax. You cannot apply directly to Illinois for a refund of this tax. The company would have to first unconditionally refund the tax to you, then they would file amended sales tax returns to us to claim a credit for any tax they may have collected in error. However, my guess is that they will not do this and you would not receive a refund.

I am unable to answer your question regarding the correct rate of tax the company would be paying as I would have to have specific information from the company regarding on where the final acceptance of the order (sellers acceptance, not purchasers acceptance) or where the tangible personal property (tpp) was located at the time of the transaction.

One of these would determine the tax rate (final acceptance of the order takes precedence to determine the tax rate). If neither final acceptance or the tpp is not located in Illinois, then it should be a tax rate of 6.25%.

Any change to the sales tax code would require a legislative change.

Thank you

{The Tax Man}

[/ QUOTE ]From where I sit, both things occur in California, leaving them charging too much tax, but I'm betting the vendor they use has one solution implemented, based on zip code, and is just charging whatever is local rather than the state rate, because they use the same system for in and out of state processing.

Which, of course, leaves me still a bit off about it, but at least I've got answers.

I do hope EA will start charging the APPROPRIATE tax rate though.

And you have to love government. You can't get your money from us, you have to get it from the person who gave it to us. But since they don't have to give it back, you're basically screwed.

I think the State of Illinois is probably a division of Electronic Arts...
 
B

Babble

Guest


I doubt it stays so complicated long, especially as some avoid the tax, others get charged the wrong amount and in the end the amount is too small to bother to harass people individually anyway.
 

Silly Seadog

Sage
It's My Birthday
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Arrrr, best answer - EA stops passin' the sales tax on to us and they also save money by no longer needin' their "vendor"!
 
G

Guest

Guest
Are the EA representatives now "officially ignoring" this thread and our concerns that have been raised in it?
 
I

imported_gawin

Guest
After talking with the DOR of NY they are concerned on 2 points regarding this tax.

1) that in no county any place in NY at all is the tax rate 8.25%

2) In EA TOS you have to sign that you own NOTING that EA owns all of it. Thus according to the state DOR the tangible personal property does NOT apply as you do no own nor receive anything tangible as it all belongs to them.

all they have said is they are opening a full investigation into the contracts as well as the over charging of customers in New York.
 
G

Guest

Guest
They might also want to "investigate" why they are charging UK customers DOUBLE the rate of Value Added Tax.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>


They might also want to "investigate" why they are charging UK customers DOUBLE the rate of Value Added Tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Maybe we should start mass disobedience and claim to also live in the US. It's absurd the amount we're charged over here


Wenchy
 
C

Calell

Guest
Obviously not. I just got my newest monthly charge from EA and it still has the 'new' amount on it. As for a lot of you saying 'it's only a little bit each month, let 'em have it', I beg to differ. Say each customer is overcharged $.35 a billing cycle...there are a couple hundred thousand active subscriptions... $.35 X 200,000 = $70,000 per month
$70,000 X 12 = $840,000 per year

that's pushing a mil on something they have no right to, period, and are in actuality stealing from us. And I used $.35 as a low estimate considering a lot of people by their state usage laws aren't supposed to be charged anything at all!
 
F

Fayled Dhreams

Guest
<blockquote><hr>


that's pushing a mil on something they have no right to, period, and are in actuality stealing from us. And I used $.35 as a low estimate considering a lot of people by their state usage laws aren't supposed to be charged anything at all!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well now!
Stealing ya say?
need to get your State on this rightaway ...
THATS where the money is supposed to be going ...
 
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