Discussing Balance

[Bombastic Fail]

I am going to repeat again. Everyone just seem to skip pages and writes a sentence or two saying what they do or don't like. If more people would make a rational thought out post like this, @Bleak would have a much easier time sorting through and seeing which things he would like to try and change and whatnot.




REPEAT:


There are several things wrong and several ways to fix them, just as there are several reason for why things are how they are. So, while I will try not to repeat most of what people have put already (Which most are correct or true) offer -REALISTIC- solutions that may not take tons of coding.


Here are some of my suggestions, whether realistic or not.


Ranged Weapons Nerf

Ideas:
Increase SSI Cap (1.50)

Lessen Damage Inc Cap (This could be global for all weapons, not just ranged)

Lessen Hit spells % (Could be based off your SSI just like Mana Leech and such)


Pros:
Evens out some of the ranged dominance at the moment, thus perhaps varying templates more.

Cons:
Hurts PVMer DPS as well
Makes mages a little more out of balance, also requiring a nerf.


Pure Mage Nerf

Ideas:
Add skills to "Focus Mage" that breaks the SDI change (Alchemy, Poison, etc)

Lessen SDI increase from Focus

Make it so only wrestling gets parrying bonus (Or perhaps only a weapon skill) or add other requirements (HCI or a new property)

*One of my favorites* Make shields disarmable again


Pros:
Perhaps diversifies the mage templates more.


Cons:
Makes dexxers and archers more dominant than mages once again without other changes


Global Changes:


Exceptional item weights for imbuing should be increased:
With power creep, most of these items are irrelevant except for filler pieces. With legendary artifacts, you might have 1 or 2 imbued pieces (A ring perhaps, or 1 piece of armor) to compliment your suit. That is it. Increase the weights of everything at least by 100 if not more. This should be done ASAP because it hurts nothing at all in game.


Make PURE SKILL worth more than "Added" skill:
Set bonuses at points with real skill (100, 110, 120).
Example: Sure 120 parry is great, but that bonus 10% won't be there with your 100 real skill and +20 on a ring or brace.

Or simply make more -HARD- caps for things. Just like needing 90 tactics for specials, or 90 skill for masteries.

Make shields disarmable again:
This makes dexxers more useful, and parrying nerfed a little

Let DCI be overcapped again:
A lot of mage weapon using templates will open back up with this change

Let specials stay procced even when spells are casted:
This will also open up several spell casting templates with dexxer variants

Let dexxers hit from 2 tiles away:
This one is tricky, because it can change a lot of balance in PVM, but PVP wise, will really make dexxers a little strong. Balance may be needed with specials and this change, however.

Nerf Alchemy:
Everyone is using it. Either cap it at 50%, or make it so it doesn't stack with EP and just get the 50% bonus with GM. Every 2 points of alchemy gives you 1% EP.

Change the double conflag pot. With clever usage of macros, a double conflag is viable. This makes for something a bit game breaking when mixed with 80% ep and multi pot throwers.

Supernovas should surely be looked at as well. Doing anywhere from 15-35 with 80% EP and a cursed target (Or Omened) this is a lot of damage for an AOE -INSTANT- potion that can never miss. Perhaps a flat damage that isn't based on a resist? Or capped damage it can do (20 damage for instance).

A timer until the cast like explosion potions perhaps? On both conflags and supernovas.

Nerf 4/6 Chivalry:
A touchy subject because not all spells are "Broken". It needs to be looked at extensively. The simple fix is to increase the mana cost of a few spells (The Remove Curse, The Heal, The Cure) and/or for the remove curse, make the spell slower, or not remove ALL the curses. Only a random few.

You could also (Or instead) add a complementary skill to chivalry. The argument to this is simple... Mage/Eval - Mystic/Focus - Necro/SS. Some may argue to do the same to spellweaving, which is also true though.


Let true artifacts and items be imbuable:
There is no reason and no "BALANCE" that should be claimed against this. True artifacts are meant to be the most powerful in the game. Times change, and so does power creep, but come on. It was in the game once. A weight increase should also be implemented. At least up to 700-800 on armor. Weapons may need to be looked at (600 for archer, 650 for 1 handers, 750 for 2 handers perhaps)





These are just a few SIMPLE changes that could make a huge difference in the gameplay of a lot (PVMers & PVPers alike) of people for the better.

@Bleak I've started to give up with writing out well thought out processes, because there are generally ignored by the DEVs and pushed aside. I hope with your asking of thoughts from the public, you actually intend to take some of the great ideas presented by people and use them. We look forward to your hard work and implementation of these things. We are very passionate about your product, please show us the same in return.

 

[drcossack]

Looking for the cheese to go with my whine

The next time I do an EM Event, which will be on Thursday, I will record the boss and show you that a 1.5 second cap is ultimately meaningless. Does it hurt the overall dps, especially during a boss fight? Yes. But not as much as you might think it would - you still do enough to get loot rights.

 

[Aeyko]

In my opinion, mages have been nerfed enough. Mage's have to use the alchemy skill to be able to kill anyone on a 1v1 basis any longer. Dexers have by far been overpowered for quite some time, mainly since the Over DCI cap was removed.

The fixes that are relevant in real pvp are as follows:

4/6 Chivalry casting: This should be nerfed allowing only dexers to use this as this was meant for paladins. Wrestling should void the 4/6 casting ability
Focused necromancers: the corpseskin should not stack with curse and your max resistance curse should be to 55 poison/fire. The stack allows for 70 hp armor ignores as well as base hits of 30hp from basic bows.
Allow stackable DCI again with a cap of 70. This will allow the mage templates to be diverse and not every person will have to use alchemy to survive.
Swing speed for archers and throwers: Adjust the SSI cap on moving shot for this special
Parry: This skill is made to deflect dexers and specifically to combat dexers, it currently works as it supposed to work. At times a dexer will hit me 7 times in a row and at times they will miss as many as 7 in a row. This is the RNG of Ultima.Under no circumstance should shields be disarmable, this will create more overpowered issues with dexers and less use of mages in pvp.
Alchemy: This skill takes 100 skill points and only reaps a few benefits. Taking away from the benefits will execute alchemy in general. Think of the previous necromancer "fixes" previously that made necro and spirit speak useless for years. Any adjustments to alchemy and parry will be a huge mistake.

As the pvp player base dwindles, I encourage you to not further dwindle the population by making mages completely useless and continuing to add to the dexers arsenal. Assemble a team of proven "top tier" pvper's to assist you with the developments before adjustments are made and test these adjustments thoroughly to ensure there are no imbalances such as the current necro corpseskin issue. The true pvpers should have a voice in these adjustments.

 

[ansyears]

4/6 Chivalry casting: This should be nerfed allowing only dexers to use this as this was meant for paladins. Wrestling should void the 4/6 casting ability

Well at least we know this guy isn't a "true pvper"

 

[drcossack]

As the pvp player base dwindles, I encourage you to not further dwindle the population by making mages completely useless and continuing to add to the dexers arsenal. Assemble a team of proven "top tier" pvper's to assist you with the developments before adjustments are made and test these adjustments thoroughly to ensure there are no imbalances such as the current necro corpseskin issue. The true pvpers should have a voice in these adjustments.

And what, exactly, would you define as "top tier" pvp'ers? The idea is solid, but how do you know for certain that the focus group (if they're even listened to in the first place) wouldn't suggest things that are ultimately self-serving?

 

[Aeyko]

Well at least we know this guy isn't a "true pvper"

@ansyear Not a true pvper? And what wrestler with 4/6 chiv IS a true pvper?

@drcossack What I mean by a top tier pvper is a pvper that has been pvping successfully and often. These focus groups could help prevent these mistakes from being made. The pvpers that are often dying, clearly cannot pvp with the already overpowered issues at hand, so they should not even be in the discussion. Take that however you'd like.

 

[randy]

I love when people who don't pvp tell pvpers why their ideas are good. Terrible ideas all around if you want pvp fixed allow necro and mystic to have 30 sdi, get rid of the 200 skill points that screw over dexers, allow ds for non stealthers not archers and boom.

 

[randy]

In my opinion, mages have been nerfed enough. Mage's have to use the alchemy skill to be able to kill anyone on a 1v1 basis any longer. Dexers have by far been overpowered for quite some time, mainly since the Over DCI cap was removed.

The fixes that are relevant in real pvp are as follows:

4/6 Chivalry casting: This should be nerfed allowing only dexers to use this as this was meant for paladins. Wrestling should void the 4/6 casting ability
Focused necromancers: the corpseskin should not stack with curse and your max resistance curse should be to 55 poison/fire. The stack allows for 70 hp armor ignores as well as base hits of 30hp from basic bows.
Allow stackable DCI again with a cap of 70. This will allow the mage templates to be diverse and not every person will have to use alchemy to survive.
Swing speed for archers and throwers: Adjust the SSI cap on moving shot for this special
Parry: This skill is made to deflect dexers and specifically to combat dexers, it currently works as it supposed to work. At times a dexer will hit me 7 times in a row and at times they will miss as many as 7 in a row. This is the RNG of Ultima.Under no circumstance should shields be disarmable, this will create more overpowered issues with dexers and less use of mages in pvp.
Alchemy: This skill takes 100 skill points and only reaps a few benefits. Taking away from the benefits will execute alchemy in general. Think of the previous necromancer "fixes" previously that made necro and spirit speak useless for years. Any adjustments to alchemy and parry will be a huge mistake.

As the pvp player base dwindles, I encourage you to not further dwindle the population by making mages completely useless and continuing to add to the dexers arsenal. Assemble a team of proven "top tier" pvper's to assist you with the developments before adjustments are made and test these adjustments thoroughly to ensure there are no imbalances such as the current necro corpseskin issue. The true pvpers should have a voice in these adjustments.

If you're going to fix 4/6 chiv making it so wrestlers can't use it should literally be the least of your worries. Chiv was meant to be a defensive oriented skill now they have a 35 dmg fist that casts as quick as a mind blast if chiv is getting anything it needs to be 2/6 if you use chiv mastery for fist.

 

[CovenantX]

@ansyear Not a true pvper? And what wrestler with 4/6 chiv IS a true pvper?

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point of it being a "true" pvper or not.

I'm not going to lie, you lost me with that first line as well.

explain in detail what exactly is not balanced with the combination of Chivalry at 4/6 casting + Wrestling? I'm going to tell you, it's not that specific combination that makes it OP or imbalanced to begin with.... but I would like to see what your reply is. just in case I'm missing something.

 

[CovenantX]

If you're going to fix 4/6 chiv making it so wrestlers can't use it should literally be the least of your worries. Chiv was meant to be a defensive oriented skill now they have a 35 dmg fist that casts as quick as a mind blast if chiv is getting anything it needs to be 2/6 if you use chiv mastery for fist.

I disagree!

The chivalry mastery regardless of other skills being combined with it would mean you drop to 2/6 casting?

That makes no sense what so ever.

Guys just because 4/6 chivalry is more difficult for you to kill with your parry-alchy-mages than other templates, doesn't mean it's overpowered.

 

[Aeyko]

@randy @CovenantX

For example, if you're required to have a weapon skill with chiv instead of wrestling this will take the primary "holy fisting" character out of the equation. It's an added 35 hp of dmg interruptible spell by a paladin. I have no issues with chiv having ONE offensive spell that is disruptable. The issues I have is the fact that you can bundle it with wrestling and make an offensive template with spellweaving and ninja and still cast as fast while having to use less skills than a typical paladin. Does that make sense?

 

[Bombastic Fail]

Focused necromancers: the corpseskin should not stack with curse and your max resistance curse should be to 55 poison/fire. The stack allows for 70 hp armor ignores as well as base hits of 30hp from basic bows.

What? 70 point AIs? Or not. Most an AI can do is 42 with an Omen. Not correct at all.

Allow stackable DCI again with a cap of 70. This will allow the mage templates to be diverse and not every person will have to use alchemy to survive.

Alchemy: This skill takes 100 skill points and only reaps a few benefits. Taking away from the benefits will execute alchemy in general. Any adjustments to alchemy and parry will be a huge mistake.

What? It adds to a cap 50% EP cap, thus making it 80%. No one said remove the usefulness of this. Actually, it's been proposed to BUFF it to make it 50% EP. It just SHOULD NOT STACK with 50% EP thus making it 80%. Your great jewelry won't be worth as much (Sorry, not sorry) but at least you won't need to "WASTE" 100 skill points as you mention now if it is "changed".

Not to mention you just said in one sentence don't change it, then in another, you wouldn't need Alchemy with a change. Which is it?

Focused necromancers: the corpseskin should not stack with curse and your max resistance curse should be to 55 poison/fire. The stack allows for 70 hp armor ignores as well as base hits of 30hp from basic bows.

Why is it okay to stack EP but not Curse/Necro? When the necro has to be a focused and (usually) not a mage? Meaning, for it to be useful, you need 2 people? This is a balance based off group PVP, and everyone (All these PVPERS) agreed it should NOT be balanced based off group pvp.

As the pvp player base dwindles, I encourage you to not further dwindle the population by making mages completely useless and continuing to add to the dexers arsenal. Assemble a team of proven "top tier" pvper's to assist you with the developments before adjustments are made and test these adjustments thoroughly to ensure there are no imbalances such as the current necro corpseskin issue. The true pvpers should have a voice in these adjustments.

Technically, anyone who PVPs should have a voice. There should be a few people to point out inaccurate information (Like I simply did in your post) so people don't get caught up in words && confused on issues like "70 point" AIs that don't exist.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

@randy @CovenantX

For example, if you're required to have a weapon skill with chiv instead of wrestling this will take the primary "holy fisting" character out of the equation. It's an added 35 hp of dmg interruptible spell by a paladin. I have no issues with chiv having ONE offensive spell that is disruptable. The issues I have is the fact that you can bundle it with wrestling and make an offensive template with spellweaving and ninja and still cast as fast while having to use less skills than a typical paladin. Does that make sense?

Again, inaccurate information. You realize you lose the 4/6 chiv casting when you have certain skills right? You are ignoring these skills I guess?

I don't disagree with some of the things you are mentioning/proposing (I clearly main a mage also), but some of the things you are saying are just flat out wrong. And you are smacktalking "lesser" PVPers who don't know the correct information, when you are also throwing out incorrect information.

 

[CovenantX]

@randy @CovenantX

For example, if you're required to have a weapon skill with chiv instead of wrestling this will take the primary "holy fisting" character out of the equation. It's an added 35 hp of dmg interruptible spell by a paladin. I have no issues with chiv having ONE offensive spell that is disruptable. The issues I have is the fact that you can bundle it with wrestling and make an offensive template with spellweaving and ninja and still cast as fast while having to use less skills than a typical paladin. Does that make sense?

It makes sense, but is it really Wrestling & Chivalry that make it OP? wouldn't it be about the same if the person had say, Swords & Chivalry?

 

[Bombastic Fail]

I disagree!

The chivalry mastery regardless of other skills being combined with it would mean you drop to 2/6 casting?

That makes no sense what so ever.

Guys just because 4/6 chivalry is more difficult for you to kill with your parry-alchy-mages than other templates, doesn't mean it's overpowered.

Chiv based characters are actually very hard to kill with any template. This is why some things have been proposed to help out with the balancing of big three spells (Heal, Cure, Remove Curse). I have a practically unkillable tamer with extreme offense and defense. With Wrestle/Chiv/Parry/Resist, Alchemy, it will never die. Also, with Taming/Lore (With a Dread Mare or Prepatched Cu), Holy Fist, Alchemy Pots, and Bolas, it is an extremely offensive template. There shouldn't be a template like that. It takes every strong / slightly overpowered thing in game, and adds them together.

But I do agree, Chiv shouldn't be singled out. It should be taken care of at the same time as the changes to Archery, Parry, Alchemy, etc...

 

[ansyears]

@ansyear Not a true pvper? And what wrestler with 4/6 chiv IS a true pvper?

What dexxer with 4/6 chiv IS a true pvper?

 

[randy]

I disagree!

The chivalry mastery regardless of other skills being combined with it would mean you drop to 2/6 casting?

That makes no sense what so ever.

Guys just because 4/6 chivalry is more difficult for you to kill with your parry-alchy-mages than other templates, doesn't mean it's overpowered.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is to have people casting at 4/6 and having good offense with it because of fist. You have to be incredibly bias to not think it's overpowered. If that is your stance on it it's not really worth debating with someone who clearly doesn't grasp pvp.

 

[Aeyko]

@Bombastic Fail I have been hit with an AI for 70 hp with an Omen after being cursed and corpsed. 100% poison or fire bow and omen. BAM, 70 hp dmg EASILY. So this is in fact TRUE. I can tell by the way you address me that you have an issue with me. It's most likely from an ass kicking you have caught from me being that I know how to play these templates and the damage outputs.

As far as the chiv information, chiv is not the primary offense on a dexer template. I don't expect you to understand this. The healing capability on a mage (69.9 Magery) fisting parry mage is simply ridiculous. I do not care for 4/6 chiv as a whole but I realize there is a place for it in the world of paladins. It was not intended to be abused by non paladin characters. Possibly adding a spell dmg increase / decrease in regards to the amount of tactics or real weapon skill a paladin has may help.

You mention "great jewelry" with a sarcastic tone. That is the point of this GREAT jewelry, to build these types of templates. Your entire demeanor towards real pvpers astounds me. You wreak of what is wrong with the development of this game. You cannot compete so you want everything tweaked to dumb down the game so you can find yourself in the competition.

 

[randy]

With all of that said I'm fine with chiv I just find it funny when people try to down play it because they are scared it will get nerfed. I just think if you're going to change it that is the obvious flaw. At least alchy has timers on its offensive pots you're using 100 skilll points towards something that has timers not as OP as people think. The only real issues with pvp is there is a huge limit on what is effective because of 15 sdi or needing certain skills to not have specials instantly eat your mana. If they just had everything like it was during samire empire with all these crazy new items this game would be awesome.

 

[Aeyko]

With all of that said I'm fine with chiv I just find it funny when people try to down play it because they are scared it will get nerfed. I just think if you're going to change it that is the obvious flaw. At least alchy has timers on its offensive pots you're using 100 skilll points towards something that has timers not as OP as people think. The only real issues with pvp is there is a huge limit on what is effective because of 15 sdi or needing certain skills to not have specials instantly eat your mana. If they just had everything like it was during samire empire with all these crazy new items this game would be awesome.

I actually 100% agree with this statement. I'll only add that there are obvious issues with chiv that need to be addressed and issues with archery as well. Taking away from the game will not help in any way. Adding skills to the focused mage category as well can only help close the gap between dexers and mages. Clearly there is a huge gap between the power of the two currently.

 

[CovenantX]

The only thing that doesn't make sense is to have people casting at 4/6 and having good offense with it because of fist. You have to be incredibly bias to not think it's overpowered. If that is your stance on it it's not really worth debating with someone who clearly doesn't grasp pvp.

You think Holy Fist is a good offense, tell me you're not getting killed by holy fist one vs one?

I'm not biased, but you can assume it I won't argue by denying things, so.... Chivalry has holylight & holyfist for Offense, if it's those two spells alone that's killing people one vs one... (and I know it's not) you have to practice survival skills in pvp...

The 4/6 casting cap offsets the lack of offense chivalry has, even with holyfist added... a mage can* Greater heal between holyfists for crying out loud, a Dexer can bandage and hope RNG allows for some interruptions/force defensive on the chivalry user.... Basic stuff.

 

[leet]

@Bombastic Fail I have been hit with an AI for 70 hp with an Omen after being cursed and corpsed.

No you haven't. Most an armor ignore can do is 42. You can be 150 of each resist and an omen + ai will do 42, you could be 0 each resist and an omen +Ai will do 42. Thats how armor ignore works.
If you are going to comment on things make sure you know what you are talking about.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

I have been hit with an AI for 70 hp with an Omen after being cursed and corpsed. 100% poison or fire bow and omen. BAM, 70 hp dmg EASILY. So this is in fact TRUE.

Sighs. Then it isn't an AI. Maybe a moving shot? Maybe a concussion? Maybe an armor pierce? No idea what you are referring to, but it CERTAINLY IS NOT an ARMOR IGNORE.

AI -IGNORES- every resist and does 90% of your damage increase. It is capped at 35, with the exception of an omen, which increases it to 42. That is it.

It's most likely from an ass kicking you have caught from me being that I know how to play these templates and the damage outputs.

I can promise you it certainly isn't that. 100%.

You mention "great jewelry" with a sarcastic tone. That is the point of this GREAT jewelry, to build these types of templates. Your entire demeanor towards real pvpers astounds me. You wreak of what is wrong with the development of this game. You cannot compete so you want everything tweaked to dumb down the game so you can find yourself in the competition

Wreak? Reek maybe? IDK what you are saying exactly. The reference to jewelry is that you need EP and Alchemy on everything, that is why you don't want the EP cap to be 50% and don't want Alchemy changed. Because then your jewelry will essential devalue. Bad evaluation on your part. But it surely shows why you are biased about certain skills and templates.

You cannot compete so you want everything tweaked to dumb down the game so you can find yourself in the competition

I actually compete just fine. My only downfall is I don't run with 6+ people all the time. Since I have come back in March, I have lost exactly 1 fight across 3 servers (Atlantic, Chesapeake, Great Lakes) in which my side had the same amount of people or outnumbered the opposition. Heck, I can even say when we have 1 or 2 less than the opponents. But, that is neither here nor there.

As far as the chiv information, chiv is not the primary offense on a dexer template. I don't expect you to understand this. The healing capability on a mage (69.9 Magery) fisting parry mage is simply ridiculous. I do not care for 4/6 chiv as a whole but I realize there is a place for it in the world of paladins. It was not intended to be abused by non paladin characters. Possibly adding a spell dmg increase / decrease in regards to the amount of tactics or real weapon skill a paladin has may help.

If you are getting killed by people with 69.9 magery and chiv, you are clearly not a the top tiered PVPer you are exclaiming.
Chiv -ABSOLUTELY- makes a template hard to kill. I agree, 100%. I told you, some of the things you say I agree with, even if your presentation of the information is very poor.

BUT!! If you are getting killed by these people to the point that you want it "NERFED", that shows a lot about you as a PVPer.

Again, if you bothered to read anyone's information or propositions besides your own, you would see, chiv was clearly in my list of things that need changed. But once again, you assume things. Wrongly, I might add.

You are clearly one of the prime examples that our DEV team ignores the PVP player base.

You spew off incorrect and inaccurate information. You attempt to belittle and name call towards other players. And then when you run out of things to say, you say just say people aren't "AS GOOD AS YOU AND ARE NO COMPETITION". I can promise you, they don't want to read that kind of crap.



@Bleak I apologize on behalf of PVP community, and will try to attempt to correct bad information, and sift through garbage to get you some good facts & opinions of players so you can get to the problems faster.

 

[Lythos-]

@Bombastic Fail The ONLY proposals you mentioned that I could agree with are special-spell toggling, increasing imbuing weight/mods and imbuing artifacts.

Pure Mages are fine.
Parry is fine.
Shields do not need to be disarmable.
Chivalry could use a small tweak to remove curse. A major mana increase would fix this.
Alchemy will be perfectly fine as soon as they remove the ability to throw double conflags.
Overcapping DCI now would make mages impossible to hit.

If anything, hybrid mages need a boost to SDI to increase template variety. 1 Tile melee needs a MAJOR boost to increase template variety. If anything we need reversal of nerfs now more than ever to increase variety and game enjoyment.

I have no idea what to do about archery. @Bleak and team introduced velocity, balance AND the suits to easily cap max swing. No other template in the game can hit base damage + 2 spells at one time from 10 tiles away at 1.25 seconds. They made this mess and now they must walk a fine line to not destroy PvM templates. MINE INCLUDED.

Welcome to Ultima Online where you can be anything you want to be unless you PvP. Then you have to play 1 of 4 effective templates.

 

[Aeyko]

@Bombastic Fail So I said AI instead of conc blow and that somehow changes the whole argument? The point is still the exact same. No one hit should do 70 HP. Period. That is the point to be made here. @Bleak I would assemble a team of players that actually compete in the game and have them show you what dmg output is currently taking place and what templates are currently being ran competitively. Bombastic Fail would not be one of them. @de LEET ed runs one of these archers with necro so he could tell you which special is doing the 70 dmg. However, he is biased because this is the only thing making him log in game to pvp at the moment. You will have these types of things happen when a skill change takes place and someone looking for ways to abuse it hasn't tested this. These players will find the bug in every change, I assure you.

 

[leet]

@Bombastic Fail So I said AI instead of conc blow and that somehow changes the whole argument? The point is still the exact same. No one hit should do 70 HP. Period. That is the point to be made here. @Bleak I would assemble a team of players that actually compete in the game and have them show you what dmg output is currently taking place and what templates are currently being ran competitively. Bombastic Fail would not be one of them. @de LEET ed runs one of these archers with necro so he could tell you which special is doing the 70 dmg. However, he is biased because this is the only thing making him log in game to pvp at the moment. You will have these types of things happen when a skill change takes place and someone looking for ways to abuse it hasn't tested this. These players will find the bug in every change, I assure you.

Yeah it does matter, you are giving wrong information in a thread about discussing pvp balance.
I do not play "one of those necro archers" so again you are wrong. But anyone in this thread can see how bias you are about being a mage that only you're template is balanced.
If you are going to comment keep it constructive and not just about you're personal vendettas. You only make yourself look stupid.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

@Bombastic FailI would assemble a team of players that actually compete in the game and have them show you what dmg output is currently taking place and what templates are currently being ran competitively. Bombastic Fail would not be one of them.

Because I point out incorrect information? Because I post well thought explanations with pros&cons?
Because I disagree with you on things, and point out my opinion on others?

This is the type of malarkey that causes a mess. Simply, because the people with the "squeakiest wheel" get catered to, and our well thought out opinions and correct facts get ignored.

There needs to be less bias and arguing with what people want, and simply more opinions with information to back it up.

I've stated several times, I agree with a few of yours. You continue to try and downplay everything I mention because I called you out on things you didn't like or agree with me. That certainly makes your case more important than mine!! [ /sarcasm]

All of this is okay by me though. I'm here for the betterment of the game, not to make friends.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

@Bombastic Fail The ONLY proposals you mentioned that I could agree with are special-spell toggling, increasing imbuing weight/mods and imbuing artifacts.

Pure Mages are fine.
Parry is fine.
Shields do not need to be disarmable.
Chivalry could use a small tweak to remove curse. A major mana increase would fix this.
Alchemy will be perfectly fine as soon as they remove the ability to throw double conflags.
Overcapping DCI now would make mages impossible to hit.

If anything, hybrid mages need a boost to SDI to increase template variety. 1 Tile melee needs a MAJOR boost to increase template variety. If anything we need reversal of nerfs now more than ever to increase variety and game enjoyment.

I have no idea what to do about archery. @Bleak and team introduced velocity, balance AND the suits to easily cap max swing. No other template in the game can hit base damage + 2 spells at one time from 10 tiles away at 1.25 seconds. They made this mess and now they must walk a fine line to not destroy PvM templates. MINE INCLUDED.

Welcome to Ultima Online where you can be anything you want to be unless you PvP. Then you have to play 1 of 4 effective templates.

@Lythos-
That's perfectly okay with me. You disagree with some of my proposed changes. Opinions are just that. But if we only have 4 templates of use in PVP, why wouldn't you want to fix some of the other things, making other templates viable?

You also did not agree or disagree with the real skill VS added skill aspect. I would like your opinion on everything, if you could.

And no one else besides you and myself has mentioned about imbuing on true artifacts and increasing imbuing weight on crafted items or all items in general. With our legendary global loot out, it can do nothing but enhance gameplay at this point, correct?

No thought process in these?

 

[Aeyko]

Yeah it does matter, you are giving wrong information in a thread about discussing pvp balance.
I do not play "one of those necro archers" so again you are wrong. But anyone in this thread can see how bias you are about being a mage that only you're template is balanced.
If you are going to comment keep it constructive and not just about you're personal vendettas. You only make yourself look stupid.

If you believe that mage's are balanced, then you truly have no idea what is going on. With that being said, the only personal vendetta I have is to make this game great again. There are servers based on older era's of this game because of how great this game once was. When the game was MORE balanced between mage and dexer. That is my agenda by posting here. Real balance.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

Overcapping DCI now would make mages impossible to hit.

I'm not sure why people keep thinking this. With 45dci against 45hci (120 skill on both ends) you have a 50% chance of being hit.

Overcapping of DCI does nothing more than make you lower defense proof. Meaning, you are always at 50% hit/miss ratio.

Surely, when combining this with the current parry, it makes it approximately 37.5% (when 80DEX is reached) miss ratio.

But, along with this change, I also made mention of making the shield disarmable (removing parry and the 12.5% added defense).

Also, with this change, more people would start using mage weapons again (freeing up skill points) and you can disarm the mage weapon, making it extremely easy to hit your opponent (approximately 70 defense wrestling **20 human anatomy, and 120 eval** vs 120 weapon skill).

No one complained before when you could overcap DCI, so IDK what the problem is now, honestly.

 

[CovenantX]

Overcapping DCI means less now even if it were still possible. reverting it won't fix any of the problems that exist today.

HLD is currently only -15 dci = -7.5% chance to dodge.
It use to be -25 DCI = -12.5% chance to dodge.

 

[drcossack]

The fixes that are relevant in real pvp are as follows:

4/6 Chivalry casting: This should be nerfed allowing only dexers to use this as this was meant for paladins. Wrestling should void the 4/6 casting ability
Focused necromancers: the corpseskin should not stack with curse and your max resistance curse should be to 55 poison/fire. The stack allows for 70 hp armor ignores as well as base hits of 30hp from basic bows.

This is dumb, and not because of the 70 HP Armor Ignore comment (which can't happen.) 4/6 Chiv could use a SLIGHT nerf: either an increase in the mana cost, or to increase the cast time of spells. For the sake of argument (since I don't know the exact cast times), let's say 4/6 lets you cast everything at .25 seconds. Increase it to 1 second for Close Wounds/Remove Curse/Cleanse by Fire (these are purely hypothetical numbers, I'm not sure what a happy medium would be.) Focused necromancers: Agreed.

Allow stackable DCI again with a cap of 70. This will allow the mage templates to be diverse and not every person will have to use alchemy to survive.

Would it do anything, other than make HLD pointless?

Swing speed for archers and throwers: Adjust the SSI cap on moving shot for this special

Not sure an SSI cap would matter, unless you mean the 1.5 second swings (which also doesn't matter.) Moving Shot should have a damage reduction and HCI penalty though.

Parry: This skill is made to deflect dexers and specifically to combat dexers, it currently works as it supposed to work. At times a dexer will hit me 7 times in a row and at times they will miss as many as 7 in a row. This is the RNG of Ultima.Under no circumstance should shields be disarmable, this will create more overpowered issues with dexers and less use of mages in pvp.

Agreed on shields. I honestly can't remember a time where they WERE disarmable.

Alchemy: This skill takes 100 skill points and only reaps a few benefits. Taking away from the benefits will execute alchemy in general. Think of the previous necromancer "fixes" previously that made necro and spirit speak useless for years. Any adjustments to alchemy and parry will be a huge mistake.

We're not proposing to remove EP entirely. Just the ability for it to stack with the skill AND items, and that doing so gives you an 80% cap. Reduce cap to 50% (regardless of having the skill or not) and let the player decide whether to use the skill or EP. Also that Alchemy breaks the focus spec for mages.

 

[Lythos-]

@Lythos-
That's perfectly okay with me. You disagree with some of my proposed changes. Opinions are just that. But if we only have 4 templates of use in PVP, why wouldn't you want to fix some of the other things, making other templates viable?

You also did not agree or disagree with the real skill VS added skill aspect. I would like your opinion on everything, if you could.

And no one else besides you and myself has mentioned about imbuing on true artifacts and increasing imbuing weight on crafted items or all items in general. With our legendary global loot out, it can do nothing but enhance gameplay at this point, correct?

I certainly want template variety. After so many years of neverending nerfs that only work until the realization of the next flavor template I feel it's time to take a look at bringing the other templates up to par with what's currently being complained as OP.

I am in favor of letting added skill be used. It adds more diversity to the template game which I am in major favor for.

I 100% agree at increasing imbuing weight AND increasing mods. Don't forget that one. There's no use increasing weight if you can't add a couple more mods too.

I'll use this as an example: I view the OP temps as you view global loot. Instead of me wanting to bring those templates down, I want to increase, the exact same as you do with increasing imbuing weight/mods to bring everything up to par and let the players decide for themselves which template is best.

I'm not sure why people keep thinking this. With 45dci against 45hci (120 skill on both ends) you have a 50% chance of being hit.


No one complained before when you could overcap DCI, so IDK what the problem is now, honestly.

I'm looking at the picture as someone with a currently suited wrestle/anatomy mage overcapping DCI. Not only will they have parry and skill check but also the overcap DCI to negate HLD. Mages are pretty hard to hit right now. I feel an overcap DCI would be too much.

When overcap DCI was about people still used -mage weps, which equaled things out.

 

[transcendent]

Lot of talking about nerfs here.

Can we get some buffs for the melee dexer in pvp?

 

[CovenantX]

Lot of talking about nerfs here.

Can we get some buffs for the melee dexer in pvp?

How would you propose buffing melee as opposed to nerfing archery and parry, without causing potentially more overpowered templates that would need further adjustments later?

 

[Bombastic Fail]

Lot of talking about nerfs here.

Can we get some buffs for the melee dexer in pvp?

Actually, I had previously mentioned a 2 tile swing for 2 handed weapons. That's a buff.

I've also toyed around with the thought of having melee have their HCI cap at increased. Perhaps to 50% or 55%. This would surely make them more appealing. But I remember when gargoyles had a 50% HCI cap and it seemed the RNG for it was extremely wonky..not sure if they just added a multiplicative 5% onto the original hit chance or what, but they hit A LOT more than that just 5%, so that is why I was hesitant to mention that one.

 

[CovenantX]

Actually, I had previously mentioned a 2 tile swing for 2 handed weapons. That's a buff.

Yea, I saw that too, It is most definitely a buff.

Here are the problems I see with 2-tile range on two-handed melee weapons.. moving shot is already the main problem with Archery. though the range is much further.
2-handed melee weapons at 2-tiles would allow people to swing while moving while also pairing their "moving swings" with specials. It's a lot easier to keep a 2-tile range than it is to close the gap and reach the 1-tile range. Also, how would that effect disarm-archer templates? Ornate Axe is 2-handed, a 2-tile range disarm is a buff for them as well.

That's just what I can think of off-hand for pvp...

It would increase the gap between Mages & Archers in pvm in favor of melee even more. which is already a problem.


Maybe it could be something like a "Focus Dexer" thing, any casting skill would drop the 2-tile range to 1 tile like it is now?
more input necessary for that idea.

 

[Lythos-]

Maybe it could be something like a "Focus Dexer" thing, any casting skill would drop the 2-tile range to 1 tile like it is now?
more input necessary for that idea.

I liked the focus dexer idea. I had a suggestion earlier for a 50/50 hci/dci increase for a pure melee character. I don't like the idea of a 2 tile range and believe a 50/50 cap wouldn't change a lot in game if taking away from hybrid melee and remaining with a 1 tile range.

I would also like to see the balanced property on non archery work with parry.

This would add some diversity for people to play straight melee. If they would remove the bushido evasion nerf we could possibly see some evade mages and dexers again. If they removed the nerf tying deathstrike to hiding and stealth skill we could see all sorts of neat ninja templates again.

 

[CovenantX]

I liked the focus dexer idea. I had a suggestion earlier for a 50/50 hci/dci increase for a pure melee character. I don't like the idea of a 2 tile range and believe a 50/50 cap wouldn't change a lot in game if taking away from hybrid melee and remaining with a 1 tile range.

Yea I'm really not a fan of the 2-tile thing either, mostly because of the other potential imbalances it could cause not just in pvp, but other aspects as well.

50/50 hci dci thing sounds ok. but I don't think that would be enough necessarily bring melee up to the level of archery, and parry-mages would still be superior to melee anyway (you don't need parry on a mage to be superior to melee to begin with), but that's also crossing over into the player-skill area where RNG isn't much a factor. so opinions on that will most definitely vary.

 

[Stndbvan]

@Bleak

I would never make shields disarm able, 100% terrible suggestion.

Start a discussion with actual real human beings who PvP often in regards to possible regeneration caps utilized in PvP. example. Hit point regeneration raises the time to kill massively in white damage only scenarios. TTK time on modern UO requires people to play the one or two burst damage templates available, and leaves no room to explore the massive amount of opportunities for traditional UO templates. (Tank mages) etc.

Remove the thing that cures your character for you automatically, *you are now cured, because.* i never understood this when i came back, i would be dueling and it just cures me or my opponent for free. why? Applications already allow people to cure so easily, why add another safeguard?

Remove the tactics requirement for special moves, this one varies in popularity among the community. But it closed a lot of great templates, mostly being tank mages. Bushido Bokuto mages for instance albeit being a powerhouse at the time, it was wiped off the map. Along with any other weapon mage i might want to use, there is literally no reason for me to pick up a quarterstaff and macing on one of my mages to PvP with no matter if its casual tooling around or competitive.

Allow Special Moves to be selected and stay "procd" or whatever while casting. The age of the bone harvester or any other weapon mage for that matter wasn't nearly half as imbalanced as the things I'm seeing today. i would much rather play a UO that requires the use of intelligent spell play and proper tactical movement and timing over slamming random burst damage hoping to get lucky. I should be able to keep a special move selected while casting imo.

The only saving grace currently in mage dueling is being able to "turtle" back and forth and outplay an opponent, competitive mage play is dead. First step in the right direction is removing the auto cure that literally plays the game for you for no apparent reason.

You have to play an SDI focused mage in order to compete due to TTK currently. (hit point regen, Enhanced pots, fast bandages) etc. no other mage template matters, because its not enough spell damage.

I only choose to play a parry mage because i would die to an archer in less than 10 seconds if i didn't. I'd much rather play a mystic mage or something to mix it up, but hey you cant.

That's my piece on a mage i guess, I've never played a "dexxer" so if it's biased that's why, whatever.

This game was better before literally any of the aforementioned was implemented. The main problem currently is that there is a ton of variety for me to choose from item and skill wise, but the game isn't balanced so i can't even begin to think about using any of it successfully. I have to play the one mage template that doesn't die in 10 seconds and can do damage, the scribe parry mage.

I'm sure some guys will have a laundry list of reasons why everything i said is horrible for them, maybe their right because I'm just a guy who keep coming back to the game and leaving once i realize its not the game it used to be.

Edit: never make characters able to hit other characters from 2 tiles away with standard melee, suggestions like this make me want to swan dive off of the Hancock center, seriously?

 

[MalagAste]

@Bleak

I would never make shields disarm able, 100% terrible suggestion.

Start a discussion with actual real human beings who PvP often in regards to possible regeneration caps utilized in PvP. example. Hit point regeneration raises the time to kill massively in white damage only scenarios. TTK time on modern UO requires people to play the one or two burst damage templates available, and leaves no room to explore the massive amount of opportunities for traditional UO templates. (Tank mages) etc.

Remove the thing that cures your character for you automatically, *you resist the poison deal* i never understood this when i came back, i would be dueling and it just cures me or my opponent for free. why?

Remove the tactics requirement for special moves, this one varies in popularity among the community. But it closed a lot of great templates, mostly being tank mages. Bushido Bokuto mages for instance albeit being a powerhouse at the time, it was wiped off the map. Along with any other weapon mage i might want to use, there is literally no reason for me to pick up a quarterstaff and macing on one of my mages to PvP with no matter if its casual tooling around or competitive.

Allow Special Moves to be selected and stay "procd" or whatever while casting. The age of the bone harvester or any other weapon mage for that matter wasn't nearly half as imbalanced as the things I'm seeing today. i would much rather play a UO that requires the use of intelligent spell play and proper tactical movement and timing over slamming random burst damage hoping to get lucky.

The only saving grace currently in mage dueling is being able to "turtle" back and forth and outplay an opponent, competitive mage play is dead. First step in the right direction is removing the auto cure that literally plays the game for you for no apparent reason.

You have to play an SDI focused mage in order to compete due to TTK currently. (hit point regen, Enhanced pots, fast bandages) etc. no other mage template matters, because its not enough spell damage.

I only choose to play a parry mage because i would die to an archer in less than 10 seconds if i didn't. I'd much rather play a mystic mage or something to mix it up, but hey you cant.

That's my piece on a mage i guess, I've never played a "dexxer" so if it's biased that's why, whatever.

This game was better before literally any of the aforementioned was implemented. The main problem currently is that there is a ton of variety for me to choose from item and skill wise, but the game isn't balanced so i can't even begin to think about using any of it successfully. I have to play the one mage template that doesn't die in 10 seconds and can do damage, the scribe parry mage.

I'm sure some guys who like to collect pots in their houses will have a laundry list of reasons why everything i said is horrible for them, maybe their right because I'm just a guy who keep coming back to the game and leaving once i realize its not the game it used to be.

Edit: never make characters able to hit other characters from 2 tiles away with standard melee, suggestions like this make me want to swan dive off of the Hancock center, seriously?

If we are talking about putting special moves back can I please have them back while in forms? It's stupid to have them unable to be used just because I changed forms.

 

[randy]

Some things need boosts not nerfs how anyone could possibly argue alchy is beyond me you're needing 50 ep and 100 skill to use potions on a timer

 

[OREOGL]

Sighs. Then it isn't an AI. Maybe a moving shot? Maybe a concussion? Maybe an armor pierce? No idea what you are referring to, but it CERTAINLY IS NOT an ARMOR IGNORE.

AI -IGNORES- every resist and does 90% of your damage increase. It is capped at 35, with the exception of an omen, which increases it to 42. That is it.

It's concussion from a crossbow that will do about 70 points.

I confirmed the AI was 42 max the other day when testing.

 

[Smoot]

@Bleak

the only thing im going to add to the discussion is that be aware that changing caps and skill function doesnt just effect pvp, it also effects pvm just because of the fact that currently very desireable items will no longer be "special", which would give less payoff, giving less of a reason for pvmers to hunt and do content.

im mainly speaking about 10 stam gear. this is one of the few mods thats still very desireable, and keeping the global loot market from coming to a total standstill (already flooded) cap archery and throwing at 1.5, and your going hurt pvmers probably the most, because that loot wont be worth much anymore.

Im also pretty sure that a good number of people would just abandon UO after their 1 to 5 billion gold suits just became worthless overkill (especially since archer is one of the most popular templates in the game)

In the end, 1.25 isnt even that much different than 1.5. Most the best archers, and most effective killing templates dont even run 1.25. But having that max creates a massive benefit (imaginary or not) to the desirebility of the loot. negating that bonus would hurt global pvm drastically overall.

There are better ways to balance.

If your going to nerf archery, you need to nerf parry

most of the complaints of all these templates are from people who refuse, or are too lazy or ignorant to utilize defensive aspects to template, or new additions to the game (refinements, new potions, new masteries, etc etc)

 

[OREOGL]

If we are talking about putting special moves back can I please have them back while in forms? It's stupid to have them unable to be used just because I changed forms.

Sorry man, I don't think this should be allowed or people would just stay in wolf or llama form all the time.

 

[Lythos-]

Sorry man, I don't think this should be allowed or people would just stay in wolf or llama form all the time.

You wouldn't be interested in getting wacked with a splinter, hit spell, tiger form bleed with a special stacked? Yeah me either...

 

[OREOGL]

If your going to nerf archery, you need to nerf parry

Yeah, unfortunately this is true.

The damage ratio goes down to like 10 DPS from 13 dps in archery where parry Mage remains around 18.

They need to buff certain combos not nerf existing ones.

I wouldn't drop tactics requirements across the board, but removing them from certain templates when coupled with each other is a thought.

I'm Okay with shield disarming, which combats wrestle parry. I don't know why anyone would disarms shield over a weapon when fighting a weapon/shield combo though.

 

[OREOGL]

You wouldn't be interested in getting wacked with a splinter, hit spell, tiger form bleed with a special stacked? Yeah me either...

Yeah I didn't even consider that either.

I think that idea should stay off the table.

 

[MalagAste]

Yeah I didn't even consider that either.

I think that idea should stay off the table.

Sadly I have to agree... though I would like it back.

 

[Smoot]

@Bleak

also keep in mind how any changes effect throwing.

because of slight differences from archery from weapon type/speed and special move combos theres only a few advantages to throwing to offset the much lower stats possible with gear.
1 you can mortal strike at 1.25 (impossible with archery)
2 you can have a heavy modded cyclone for your moving shot because you dont need ssi on the weapon to achieve 1.25 speed (but this weapon also does less base damage than archery.

We also have the range/damage/hit chance limitations with throwing, removing the 2 advantages to playing a thrower would make the basic thrower (non-hybid) essentially obsolete when it comes to pvp. (and with that the global loot stone gear and runic mallets would also not be worth hunting for)

If anything, an easy way to solve complaints about moving shot with archery might just be apply the same range/hit chance/damage to archery that we currently have for throwing. but as i said before, with any nerf to archery your going to have to look at parry.