Discussing Balance

[drcossack]

I don't find a huge problem with the corpse/curse. Yes - you could in theory abuse and stack to run a single char that could do it, but your defensive ability would be so low that you become a glass cannon. It can be done in group settings, which I'm fine with. I would say just leave it as it is.

I do think Archery is a little OP right now, but truthfully I don't know that I have the answer for how to fix it. The only thing that comes to mind is to have the base damage of weapons reduced, or, have some type of penalty (whether to damage or hit chance) when toggling moving shot.

Ehh. I understand group and 1v1 fights are different, but I still feel that the stacking is too strong, especially considering how offensively oriented the meta is. Not sure I agree with pvp being balanced though, since that would mean more than two types of templates (parry mage and archer) would be usable. I suppose it's "Balanced" around the two templates (and variants like Stealth Archer), but when practically everyone is playing Template A or Template B, it's overcentralized.

Archery: Hmm. Hard cap of 1.5 sec swings on ranged weapons? I know it's a video game, so realism goes flying out the window, but there is NO logical way that someone should be able to fire another shot with a bow (or throw a Soul Glaive/Cyclone) so quickly. It should take more than 1.25 seconds to get another arrow ready. Base damage: Maybe. Would require testing regardless of the fix(es) suggested, but the damage on Elemental Bows should definitely be looked at. Moving Shot: As I remember, it used to have an HCI penalty way back in the day. I hate reusing the "realistic" argument, but if you're moving and trying to hit another moving target, the archer should actually have a penalty to both.

I'll agree to everything else. I'm also amazed that everyone is actually AGREEING on something (balancing for 1v1) in a pvp thread. Has that ever happened before?

 

[CovenantX]

I'm even more glad how you show another remedy which I forgot. Refinements nullify a focused Necro pretty much completely. Unless again, you're fighting a dink. Trial by the fires of fel. We've all died to templates like this before you learn to adapt. Anyone recall Necro/Axers with the Axe of the heavens? Granted that was before 70's+ in all Resist wasn't so easily attained and you could quick toggle specials for double hits.


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Refinements don't nullify Focused Necro Corpse Skin is pretty balanced with Curse, it is not balanced when it can stack. I use them because DCI is garbage Notice I only have 20/25 dci? Hell on LS & GL chars only have 15-17 DCI (I know the game is archer heavy...) but getting hit isn't the problem it's what and how many people you're getting hit by.

Necro/Axers weren't as good as you think they were. 70s in all resist as you mentioned is one reason, little to now HPI was another on suits back then. but also, double strike couldn't miss with the 2nd swing, and if you timed your spells right, you couldn't miss a swing regardless. -They were "good" because of bugs & the lack of "good" suits.

I'm glad you're proving my point which I already made that it can be done with a single player. Show your template though. I can explain about 10 loopholes in it which make it so you're sacrificing a lot for those extra damage hits.

Proving your point about it being done with a single character? I didn't post that in response to you, I couldn't careless if it's able to be done with a single character or not tbch.
I'm against it Stacking the way it does. It's still beneficial to use both Curse & Corpse even if they didn't stack like they do.

The only things I sacrifice are animal form (which you can't have anyway) and range (no archery) that's it. everything else is made up by the suit (my suit is horrible compared to the average pvpr's suit btw)... most everything else is predictable and can be controlled by the players action/awareness.

I can also used a focused Mage with omen scrolls and insta kill with about a 100% success rate. No RNG involved, No chasing down single tile combat, and I still have Parry and shield bash that's an extra 35 damage un disarmable. As well as not giving up any survivability, Resist or damage. You should see my play a focused Tact archer with novas, it's too bad Parry is almost necessary in today's UO. Then you'd get to see almost a 140-150 damage output character.

1) Necro scrolls don't work like magery scrolls do. There is no 100% success rate with Necro scrolls unless your skill is equal to the amount of 100% normal success, which would break focus spec. -you're wrong There is RNG involved by your chance to fail casting. it should be roughly 50-75% failure chance for omen at 29.9 necro actually. (more than I thought.. lol)

2) Parry/Not being disarmable and able to chug does need better balancing (IMO), but the devs cannot change Parry without doing something about Ranged Weapons. Parry is almost Mandatory if you plan on fighting multiple archers (yew gate). Although since Parry has become RNG, I'd never use it.

As well as not giving up any survivability, Resist or damage. You should see my play a focused Tact archer with novas, it's too bad Parry is almost necessary in today's UO. Then you'd get to see almost a 140-150 damage output character

Everything gives up survivability for "Focused spec" in one form or another, the ones that give up the least are Parry-mages. (It's not balanced for that)
I'm not sure what you're talking about -Focused Archer... Necro or Mage?

 

[Great DC]

First there needs to be a hard cap on EP, alchemy is a crafting skill not a pvp skill.
Second Ranged weapons need a swing speed cap plus add the lower hci buff back to moving shot like it had before.
Third Holy fist SDI should have a pure template setup like the rest of casting abilities, (i.e cant run bush, weaving or other casting abilities and still keep max holy fist damage. Chivalry is meant for paladin templates not mass hybrid, don't make it straight karma based.
Parry pure mages also need a slight nerf, parry chance with just anatomy is way too high, should be around 25 percent instead of 33.

Also I have tested the melee curse corpse template and if everything procs on wep, I can do well over 100dmg a swing. Probably shouldn't make them stackable, at least not that low. 55 resist seems more fair then 45.

And yes this is all based on 1v1 pvp.

Side Note:-- Bug with chivalry still exists, where you can spam holy light while holding a holy fist precast!! This needs to be fixed asap

 

[leet]

The only way you can lower archery speed or lower hci on a running shot is if and only if you nerf parry along with it. Cut parry in half, then we can talk about nerfing archery. Because if you only nerf archery and not parry then you are actually destroying any dexxer template. People arent going to be like "oh archery got nerfed now ill play my tactics mage" They will be like, "oh archery got nerfed now instead of someone hitting me 1 out of 8 times with parry, they will hit me 1 out of 13" And if your going to lower the HCI on a running shot then remove the mana consumption if its hit or miss, considering no other special works that way. (minus the stupid mastery system but thats a whole nother story)

holding a spell while holy lighting isnt a bug @Great DC
however, the fact that Chivalrys super heal mastery is still uninterruptible the same way holy fist was, thats a bug - maybe it was overlooked when they fixed holy fist? @Bleak

 

[CovenantX]

The only way you can lower archery speed or lower hci on a running shot is if and only if you nerf parry along with it. Cut parry in half, then we can talk about nerfing archery. Because if you only nerf archery and not parry then you are actually destroying any dexxer template.

Agreed.

I say nerf them both- Reduce Parry chances only if Wrestling, Anatomy+Eval, or Mage-Weapons are the only source(s) of weapon-based defense. Everything else has to disarm to chug potions Wreslting/Anatomy do not. - Parry should not be made useless, So I'd think 20% parry chance without a secondary skill is sufficient enough, remains at 35% if Parry + swords, fencing, macing or (Throwing?) = 240.0 total skill investment.... Remove the Dexterity requirement from the skill altogether so that Parry becomes useful for tempates that don't need dex for other reasons

I've said that in just about every thread that talks about balancing pvp.

 

[cobb]

Yes, I think toning down both archers and parry mages is a good idea

 

[Merus]

The only way you can lower archery speed or lower hci on a running shot is if and only if you nerf parry along with it. Cut parry in half, then we can talk about nerfing archery. Because if you only nerf archery and not parry then you are actually destroying any dexxer template. People arent going to be like "oh archery got nerfed now ill play my tactics mage" They will be like, "oh archery got nerfed now instead of someone hitting me 1 out of 8 times with parry, they will hit me 1 out of 13" And if your going to lower the HCI on a running shot then remove the mana consumption if its hit or miss, considering no other special works that way. (minus the stupid mastery system but thats a whole nother story)

holding a spell while holy lighting isnt a bug @Great DC
however, the fact that Chivalrys super heal mastery is still uninterruptible the same way holy fist was, thats a bug - maybe it was overlooked when they fixed holy fist? @Bleak

I disagree with this... parry has not been changed in YEARS. It was not a change in parry that resulted in most pvp mages picking it up... it was the 212 archery suits and no more over capping DCI.

Were there parry mages before those changes... sure there was, and they were hard as hell to hit, but they were far fewer than today. PvP mages will balance back out because there is only so much defense that is needed, and there are better offensive skills.

 

[transcendent]

I disagree with this... parry has not been changed in YEARS. It was not a change in parry that resulted in most pvp mages picking it up... it was the 212 archery suits and no more over capping DCI.

Were there parry mages before those changes... sure there was, and they were hard as hell to hit, but they were far fewer than today. PvP mages will balance back out because there is only so much defense that is needed, and there are better offensive skills.

Yeah but the gear has changed. Having to invest 80 points in dex used to be a huge sacrifice. Now mages can reach 80 dex pretty easily

 

[CovenantX]

Yeah but the gear has changed. Having to invest 80 points in dex used to be a huge sacrifice. Now mages can reach 80 dex pretty easily

Focus spec has changed as well... before all mages were capped at 15% sdi for pvp, unless they had scribe which would bring you up to 25 SDI.

 

[Merus]

Yeah but the gear has changed. Having to invest 80 points in dex used to be a huge sacrifice. Now mages can reach 80 dex pretty easily

It isn't the stat points that are the issue, its the skill points. Most pvp mages would settle for better offense and a balanced defense, rather than extreme defense and worse offense. Yes, there will be mages that keep their parry, and they would be very very hard to kill (just like they were before)... but the odds of them kill you would also be lower.

 

[CovenantX]

but the odds of them kill you would also be lower.

If people the template is popular and very effective now... how would their odds be lower if archery were nerfed without reducing parry chances?

The standard alchy-parry-mage template has everything anyone would need defensively and offensively.... even med. those who can get their timing down don't really need meditation, thus opening another skill such as Healing, Poisoning, or Scribe.

120 Magery
120 Eval
120 Resist
100 Anatomy
120 Parry
100 Alchemy
40.0 skill remaining (Not counting increased skills from jewels/other items)


most people by now are capable of min-maxing and the gear assists ALOT in allowing this, you could easily add another 30-50 skill points with jewelry.

It's not going to get people to switch from Parry (or even Alchemy) if it means their going to drop their SDI caps to 15% from 30%.

 

[Acid Rain]

1. PvP balance should be 1v1. Good reasons have already been given but it boils down to math. More players involved in the balance makes it exponentially more difficult to achieve. Let's use the KISS principle here.

2. There have always been insta-kills in UO & I'd guess always will be, whether intentional or not. When a player puts themselves in bad situations under ideal circumstances, there should be a strong deterrent. This makes them think harder next time. Example, whenever I see a mage casting curse/explo on me, I know a flamestrike is probably coming next. I've learned timing on when to apple, cast greater heal, or to know if my heal potions timer will allow a chug. In almost every scenario, paying attention & predicting damage can escape the 'insta-kill'. There are some exceptions but those templates tend to rely on an extremely generous RNG.

3. Most all templates outside crafters are viable in team settings:

a) Mages for sync dumping, fielding,heals &res
b) ranged dexers for... well, keeping enemies at range, dismounts & damage to attacking groups w/ hit area damage(disrupts casters)
c) melee dexers for when groups clash in close combat & death strikes for runners
d) necro for corpse skin on enemies & bosses & 1 of my favs - to throw revs on stealthers
e)mystics in stone form & protection w/ a group in party spam casting cleansing winds & dropping RCs.
The list goes on & on (much like my answer to this question).​

Most every template has viability in a team setting if played right (lets not leave out bards).

2b. IMO burst damage isn't really that much of a problem if your paying attention. Dexer/Tamers & Focus Scribe Mages w/ alchemy are prob at the top of my list. Alchemy seems to be the scale tipper on a lot of templates. Alchemy Archers would also top that list.

I've read comments on an abundance of parry mages & calls to nerf them. Already mentioned, I 100% agree parry is necessary for any pvp caster but mainly because of archers. A template having around 6 macros (7 or 8 for pot throwing) can out damage most other template in DPS has forced a relatively recent abundance of parry on all templates. IMO I don't see any problems currently with parry. A nerf to parry may stop us from seeing so many but certainly doesn't fix the problem.

Reverting toggle specials while holding a spell would just create more insta kills & add more templates to the "burst damage" list.

I have not had any experiences w/ the curse/corpse skin so I can't speak knowledgeably on that topic. I rarely play in Yew where I'd guess its mostly used. Yew is usually a cesspool of client mods & speeders that I gladly avoid.

 

[Merus]

If people the template is popular and very effective now... how would their odds be lower if archery were nerfed without reducing parry chances?

The standard alchy-parry-mage template has everything anyone would need defensively and offensively.... even med. those who can get their timing down don't really need meditation, thus opening another skill such as Healing, Poisoning, or Scribe.

120 Magery
120 Eval
120 Resist
100 Anatomy
120 Parry
100 Alchemy
40.0 skill remaining (Not counting increased skills from jewels/other items)


most people by now are capable of min-maxing and the gear assists ALOT in allowing this, you could easily add another 30-50 skill points with jewelry.

It's not going to get people to switch from Parry (or even Alchemy) if it means their going to drop their SDI caps to 15% from 30%.

Personally I think Alchemy should break the focus mage. This would bring the burst damage of a mage down to a more reasonable level.

Mage offensive balance would look something like:
Focus mage with scribe combo curse/Exp/Flamestrike should be about equal to alchy mage curse/Exp/Flamestrike/Nova
which should be less than:
Necromage curse/exp/flamstrike/painspike should be about equal to mystic mage curse/spellplague/exp/flamstrike

A necromage or a mystic mage should have a little better damage output, which means they have better offense, but give up parry (or something else).

 

[cobb]

3. Most all templates outside crafters are viable in team settings:

a) Mages for sync dumping, fielding,heals &res
b) ranged dexers for... well, keeping enemies at range, dismounts & damage to attacking groups w/ hit area damage(disrupts casters)
c) melee dexers for when groups clash in close combat & death strikes for runners
d) necro for corpse skin on enemies & bosses & 1 of my favs - to throw revs on stealthers
e)mystics in stone form & protection w/ a group in party spam casting cleansing winds & dropping RCs.
The list goes on & on (much like my answer to this question).​

Most every template has viability in a team setting if played right (lets not leave out bards).

I would argue that melee dexers without deathstrike are not that useful in a group setting.

 

[Martell]

I would argue that melee dexers without deathstrike are not that useful in a group setting.

Yeah, all of Acids #3 post is complete rubbish, especially if he's talking open field team fights. Even in dungeons though, melee dexers that aren't ds'ers or 4/6 chiv are completey useless.

As for mystics, that's also a crap template and is only used in dungeon fights (in which case any good guild will just ask a single player to be on a mysitc/spellweaver to stand in the back and cast), Mystics alone are now garbage.

As most have said, 90% of temps out there are some form of parry mage or an archer.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

** My biggest issue in combat is movement. So much running around compare to how pvp used to be. I would like to see when a person enters war mode (TAB) to be forced into walking pace, both on foot, flying or on mount.

This will reduce running and create better engagements. You can still fight out of war mode but with a cap reduction in hci[40], dci[40], dmg [70] and sdi[10] and parry [30%]. This makes sense if you are not set to fight or fleeing you will not be as accurate or do as much damage.

You still can flee when hurt [Tab out of war mode] and run off but at the risk of being more easily hit.

Agree with almost everything in thread:

-Archery is slightly out of balance as it hits to fast and hard. Its a minor tweek but archery should not receive a damage bonus from Strength outside the composite and elven composite bow which would recieve half str bonus to damage. Throwing weapons get half str bonus to damage and melee receives full str bonus to damage.

-Give the two handed melee weapons [Pole arms] 2 tile hit radius [Lynk]

-Cap swing speed at 1.50 for any weapon slower then 3.25. This still gives archery and throwing weapons the ability to reach 1.25 swing speed with lighter weapons [a few people]

-Create a focus melee and focused archer in the same way they created a focused caster. Basically the old school pure dexxer all your melee skills without any type of casting ability over 30. Give damage increase up to 150%

-Give bandages the ability to remove curses at 120 heal/120 Anat. [Or create a healing mastery with the ability]

-Diminishing returns on moving shot, so stacking it on a single target will reduce damage with each subsequent hit within a 10 second window with each shot landed added two seconds.

-Stacking of corpse and curse should not be allowed. Regardless if its one or more people

-Lore

 

[Acid Rain]

I would argue that melee dexers without deathstrike are not that useful in a group setting.

Melee dexers w/o DS get a champ spawn or a harry done ALOT faster then casters and/or pets. The faster spawns/champs/bosses are completed, the lower % chance you have of losing them to another group. I cant count how many times we've kept 120 mage scrolls because our group made it into Star Room thanks to a melee dexer or 2 dropping the boss seconds before we were overrun.

Yeah, all of Acids #3 post is complete rubbish, especially if he's talking open field team fights. Even in dungeons though, melee dexers that aren't ds'ers or 4/6 chiv are completey useless.

As for mystics, that's also a crap template and is only used in dungeon fights (in which case any good guild will just ask a single player to be on a mysitc/spellweaver to stand in the back and cast), Mystics alone are now garbage.

As most have said, 90% of temps out there are some form of parry mage or an archer.

Close your eyes & try to envision playing a game outside of Yew. Melee dexers are KEY to finishing your spawn & safely getting scrolls/drops out of a dungeon. The mystic template was just one suggestion & used only to illustrate viability in all templates. It was not a suggestion meant to be the only reason to play a mystic.

Many templates are forms of parry casters because of archery thus making both templates the majority. One to combat the other.

*EDIT* I think all melee templates w/o DS, pets, or EP are useless in purely PvP engagements but that was not his question. The question was "viability in a team setting" and my team doesn't run around Yew. We run champ spawns, kill encounter bosses, and do Harrowers where we have to PvP to keep them.

 

[drcossack]

** My biggest issue in combat is movement. So much running around compare to how pvp used to be. I would like to see when a person enters war mode (TAB) to be forced into walking pace, both on foot, flying or on mount.

This will reduce running and create better engagements. You can still fight out of war mode but with a cap reduction in hci[40], dci[40], dmg [70] and sdi[10] and parry [30%]. This makes sense if you are not set to fight or fleeing you will not be as accurate or do as much damage.

You still can flee when hurt [Tab out of war mode] and run off but at the risk of being more easily hit.

 

[CovenantX]

*
-Give the two handed melee weapons [Pole arms] 2 tile hit radius [Lynk]

-Cap swing speed at 1.50 for any weapon slower then 3.25. This still gives archery and throwing weapons the ability to reach 1.25 swing speed with lighter weapons [a few people]

2 tile range sounds great, but honestly it's a horrible idea. not only will it make non-2 tile weapons useless for anything but a very select few specials it would further imbalance pvm in favor of dexers (more importantly) Sampires, the devs need to try and move away from sampires in pvm imo. not promote them.

swings-speed caps on weapons slower than 3.25 (that's a very specific number though) I believe it should be something limited to Ranged weapons only. otherwise there would continue to be imbalances between Ranged weapons & Melee weapons.

 

[CovenantX]

Personally I think Alchemy should break the focus mage. This would bring the burst damage of a mage down to a more reasonable level.

Mage offensive balance would look something like:
Focus mage with scribe combo curse/Exp/Flamestrike should be about equal to alchy mage curse/Exp/Flamestrike/Nova
which should be less than:
Necromage curse/exp/flamstrike/painspike should be about equal to mystic mage curse/spellplague/exp/flamstrike

A necromage or a mystic mage should have a little better damage output, which means they have better offense, but give up parry (or something else).

So basically you're saying:

1) Alchemy @ 29.9 or higher = 15% sdi cap* 15/30% - I absolutely agree

2) Non-focused mages (Necro-mage/Mystic-mage etc) should have an SDI cap of 20%* (20/30) instead of 15% (15/30). to make them more balanced with a focus-spec "Pure-Mage" with the extra utility from a different casting school without giving up so much damage.

If so, I could agree with that. I do think it would be more balanced that way than it is now, But....That's not related to Parry-mages vs Archers >Dexers though, I believe you really cannot nerf one without nerfing the other.

If Archery were nerfed at all be it damage, swing speed, hit chance or a combination of either of those. the parry mage would gain increased benefit over them on top of what they already have.

 

[Merus]

So basically you're saying:

1) Alchemy @ 29.9 or higher = 15% sdi cap* 15/30% - I absolutely agree

2) Non-focused mages (Necro-mage/Mystic-mage etc) should have an SDI cap of 20%* (20/30) instead of 15% (15/30). to make them more balanced with a focus-spec "Pure-Mage" with the extra utility from a different casting school without giving up so much damage.

If so, I could agree with that. I do think it would be more balanced that way than it is now, But....That's not related to Parry-mages vs Archers >Dexers though, I believe you really cannot nerf one without nerfing the other.

If Archery were nerfed at all be it damage, swing speed, hit chance or a combination of either of those. the parry mage would gain increased benefit over them on top of what they already have.

Without something happening to ranged dexxers, I don't see mages giving up parry for any reason.

Cap archery and throwing at 1.5 if the weapon has any hit effect
Add Alchemy to the list of skills that break the focused spec

 

[CovenantX]

Without something happening to ranged dexxers, I don't see mages giving up parry for any reason.

Mmk, a more specific question.

IF Ranged dexers were nerfed with no other changes made, what would you change on a parry mage and why?

Edit: by "nerfed" I mean, in the way you propose.

 

[Merus]

Mmk, a more specific question.

IF Ranged dexers were nerfed with no other changes made, what would you change on a parry mage and why?

Edit: by "nerfed" I mean, in the way you propose.

I do not believe parry needs changed... I believe the over-use of parry is the equation trying to balance against OP dexxer offense. Parry offers a mage nothing but survivablility... I think, for the most part, mages would return to a more balanced defensive style (Parry and a mage weapon or anat without parry... either way, roughly 100-120 skill points in defense) in order to pick up something with more offensive benefit.

I don't think ranged dexxers need a huge nerf, just a minor tweek... right now their dps is just a little too high. If you capped ranged speed at 1.5 if the weapon had a hit effect, it would drop the dps just a bit, while allowing full weapon speed if you limit it to just weapon damage. The mage balance that I see is the alchemy issue... burst damage there is just a tad to high.

 

[CovenantX]

I do not believe parry needs changed... I believe the over-use of parry is the equation trying to balance against OP dexxer offense. Parry offers a mage nothing but survivablility... I think, for the most part, mages would return to a more balanced defensive style (Parry and a mage weapon or anat without parry... either way, roughly 100-120 skill points in defense) in order to pick up something with more offensive benefit.

I don't think ranged dexxers need a huge nerf, just a minor tweek... right now their dps is just a little too high. If you capped ranged speed at 1.5 if the weapon had a hit effect, it would drop the dps just a bit, while allowing full weapon speed if you limit it to just weapon damage. The mage balance that I see is the alchemy issue... burst damage there is just a tad to high.

Ok, well there were only two answers anyway.

Mine would have been "Nothing" because I have no problems killing people with a plain "focus mage" Thus no reason to pick up more offense.
Parry - only increases your success chance of getting my offensive spells off. because I time my healing between attacks so RNG is very limited, and there's always a chance for dexers to miss anyway.

Your answer was to pickup more offense. being what, Scribe, Poisoning, or Alchemy? They're pretty much the only options without reducing your "Dps".

 

[Merus]

Ok, well there were only two answers anyway.

Mine would have been "Nothing" because I have no problems killing people with a plain "focus mage" Thus no reason to pick up more offense.
Parry - only increases your success chance of getting my offensive spells off. because I time my healing between attacks so RNG is very limited, and there's always a chance for dexers to miss anyway.

Your answer was to pickup more offense. being what, Scribe, Poisoning, or Alchemy? They're pretty much the only options without reducing your "Dps".

I think we might see mages return to more of what we used to see...
Mystic/Mage
Nox/Necro/Mage
Scribe/Alchy/Mage (would be way OP if we don't change alchy)
Even some Tactics/Mages
Some will keep parry, but I think once there are some other mage temps on the field it would be more obvious that their DPS is limited compared to the other mage temps.

As is, there are only 2 temps being run... alchy/parry/mage or scribe/parry/mage.

 

[Piotr]

Archery: Hmm. Hard cap of 1.5 sec swings on ranged weapons? I know it's a video game, so realism goes flying out the window, but there is NO logical way that someone should be able to fire another shot with a bow (or throw a Soul Glaive/Cyclone) so quickly. It should take more than 1.25 seconds to get another arrow ready.

Wrong!

 

[CovenantX]

I think we might see mages return to more of what we used to see...
Mystic/Mage
Nox/Necro/Mage
Scribe/Alchy/Mage (would be way OP if we don't change alchy)
Even some Tactics/Mages
Some will keep parry, but I think once there are some other mage temps on the field it would be more obvious that their DPS is limited compared to the other mage temps.

As is, there are only 2 temps being run... alchy/parry/mage or scribe/parry/mage.

I'm going to tell ya right now, people will not drop Parry if ranged weapons became capped at 1.5s alone

Why?
1) Most importantly, capping ranged weapons at 1.5s isn't going to be noticed by a lot of players. -The Devs could stealth nerf this and people wouldn't catch it unless they tried...
2) a Parry Mage is not designed to fight only one vs one, it's designed to fight multiple "Dexers".
3) a Parry-Mage already has arguably the "Best" offense in the game, with no doubt about it the "Best" Defense in the game. For those of you thinking 4/6 chivalry, it's the only exception, but there's a difference.... the difference is 4/6 chivalry takes the damage and heals it back up.... let's call that "Recovery" instead of Defense for argument sake.

Parry at 35% = 17.5% (on average) increase in spells going off against all forms of weapon-based dexers.
Since Parry increases your chance to avoid spell interruption against dexers it also increases offense against dexers so 67.5%/100% Defense & 65%/100% Offense @30 SDI.

Scribe = +10% spell damage modifier. which works against everything but if you give up Parry for Scribe you're reducing your DPS by 12.5% against dexers because of how much more often you'll be hit (on average) @30sdi-40 with scribe.. Which makes Parry a clear choice.

This is why Nerfing Archery without doing something about Parry is a problem. Mage vs Mage it's almost solely based on your timing vs your opponents timing. this is much harder to factor, this is also not the problem.

 

[Merus]

I'm going to tell ya right now, people will not drop Parry if ranged weapons became capped at 1.5s alone

Why?
1) Most importantly, capping ranged weapons at 1.5s isn't going to be noticed by a lot of players. -The Devs could stealth nerf this and people wouldn't catch it unless they tried...
2) a Parry Mage is not designed to fight only one vs one, it's designed to fight multiple "Dexers".
3) a Parry-Mage already has arguably the "Best" offense in the game, with no doubt about it the "Best" Defense in the game. For those of you thinking 4/6 chivalry, it's the only exception, but there's a difference.... the difference is 4/6 chivalry takes the damage and heals it back up.... let's call that "Recovery" instead of Defense for argument sake.

Parry at 35% = 17.5% (on average) increase in spells going off against all forms of weapon-based dexers.
Since Parry increases your chance to avoid spell interruption against dexers it also increases offense against dexers so 67.5%/100% Defense & 65%/100% Offense @30 SDI.

Scribe = +10% spell damage modifier. which works against everything but if you give up Parry for Scribe you're reducing your DPS by 12.5% against dexers because of how much more often you'll be hit (on average) @30sdi-40 with scribe.. Which makes Parry a clear choice.

This is why Nerfing Archery without doing something about Parry is a problem. Mage vs Mage it's almost solely based on your timing vs your opponents timing. this is much harder to factor, this is also not the problem.

You bring up many excellent arguments. The thing that works against your arguments is the fact that it wasn't parry that changed. Parry mages used to exist in very much the same fashion as they do now... yet they weren't the most commen mage template in pvp. Focus mages got a damage boost, but I still say the primary surge toward the parry mage template was not its inherent offense... it was the absolute need for the defense. The other mage templates had plenty of offense, they just became, for the most part, unsurvivable against the offense of dexxers.

 

[CovenantX]

You bring up many excellent arguments. The thing that works against your arguments is the fact that it wasn't parry that changed. Parry mages used to exist in very much the same fashion as they do now... yet they weren't the most commen mage template in pvp. Focus mages got a damage boost, but I still say the primary surge toward the parry mage template was not its inherent offense... it was the absolute need for the defense. The other mage templates had plenty of offense, they just became, for the most part, unsurvivable against the offense of dexxers.

Parry didn't change, you're right about that... But what did change was the ease of access allowing parry to be used at maximum potential through items, parry hasnt' changed directly for any template, it only became significantly better for mages because of "power creep".

The inherent Offense for the Parry-mage is exactly the same as any "focused" mage until you put a Focused Parry-mage against a dexer & then a Focused Non-Parry-Mage against a dexer. It's not Parry by itself. it is a combination of things they all work against the dexers though. Mages balance themselves out in the way of player skills. This is why I will ALWAYS be 100% against Casting Focus and Poison Immunity (in PvP) as well, adding RNG to this is killing it.

Wrestling + Parry or Anatomy + Parry have no weaknesses to dexers but also no weakness to other mages. a Parry-mage shouldn't be "Weak" to a dexer, but they also shouldn't have as much of an edge as they do especially with how much more difficult it is when the dexer isn't a Ranged weapon user.

You don't see Parry-mages with mage-weapons, nor do you see Parry-mages with "Weapon-Skills" other than Wrestling or Anatomy, the reasons are simple -Disarm vulnverability, unable to chug without disarming (both defensive hurdles every single other Parry-template deals with) able to chug potions at any and all times, AND requiring tactics for specials with "weapons".

 

[CovenantX]

it was the absolute need for the defense. The other mage templates had plenty of offense, they just became, for the most part, unsurvivable against the offense of dexxers.

I agree. but just to be clear, when you refer to "dexxers" you're mostly referring to Archers, right?

Melee dexers don't benefit for being 180-210+ stamina like an Archer or Thrower does due to movement and range of weapons.

 

[OREOGL]

You don't see Parry-mages with mage-weapons, nor do you see Parry-mages with "Weapon-Skills" other than Wrestling or Anatomy, the reasons are simple -Disarm vulnverability, unable to chug without disarming (both defensive hurdles every single other Parry-template deals with) able to chug potions at any and all times, AND requiring tactics for specials with "weapons".

Actually, tactics mages do use weapons, along with parry.

yeah it allows for disarm vulnerability, but thats a broad spectrum issue vs many templates.

 

[Merus]

I agree. but just to be clear, when you refer to "dexxers" you're mostly referring to Archers, right?

Melee dexers don't benefit for being 180-210+ stamina like an Archer or Thrower does due to movement and range of weapons.

I am not sure it was just archers, though they are the lions share of the issue.

IMO, weapon speed and weapon effects got out of balance... splinter, disarm, hit spell, hit velocity, etc, etc. These effects now hit at a much higher % (70% hit fireball, etc) and proc on a weapon with much higher speed being easily achieved (1.25 swing speed). To top it off, they can hit with that level of % and weapon speed while moving.

Here are the two premises that frame my view:
1. There is a certain amount of being hit that a mage is willing to accept in pvp. If they are hit too much they will add more defense. That defense sacrifices offense, so if they are hit too little, they will add more offense. = A couple years back mages were getting hit in pvp, yet they weren't all parry mages. A mage weapon and overcapped DCI was enough to maintain the balance. It was not the inherent offense of the parry/mage template that lead to its overuse... it was the need for the defense.
2. There are better mage templates than the focus mage with parry. If you want to see more mage templates without parry, there has to be something that returns the balance to what it used to be. If that balance were to return, there would be some mage who will keep their parry and be very very hard to hit. However, I think that many mages in pvp would naturally migrate to other templates. They would change not because parry got nerfed, but because the advantage over the balance point didn't make sense anymore.

The hard part about the theory I proposed is where you find the balance point, and how you get there.

1. I believe very small, incremental changes are the way to go.
2. You really only have two options to change the balance back: Give mages another way to maintain their defense (maybe higher DCI caps) or limit the effectiveness of dexxers offense.

 

[Lythos-]

Every time the community jumps to nerf we end with another fotm op temp. It's been an endless cycle for ages.

It's time we looked at ways to bring other temps up to par instead of nerfing.

 

[OREOGL]

Every time the community jumps to nerf we end with another fotm op temp. It's been an endless cycle for ages.

It's time we looked at ways to bring other temps up to par instead of nerfing.

This, we would spend a great deal of time nerfing x amount of things when you can simply increase something to balance the power creep.

Though they need to be careful that this doesn't affect the power creep of the ones that top tier already.

 

[CovenantX]

Actually, tactics mages do use weapons, along with parry.

yeah it allows for disarm vulnerability, but thats a broad spectrum issue vs many templates.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but they sacrifice more for it. -making the choice clear.

Where as wrestling parry or anatomy parry sacrifice nothing. Wrestling/Anatomy + Parry have more free skill points to add because they wouldn't need tactics.

I am not sure it was just archers, though they are the lions share of the issue.

IMO, weapon speed and weapon effects got out of balance... splinter, disarm, hit spell, hit velocity, etc, etc. These effects now hit at a much higher % (70% hit fireball, etc) and proc on a weapon with much higher speed being easily achieved (1.25 swing speed). To top it off, they can hit with that level of % and weapon speed while moving.

Here are the two premises that frame my view:
1. There is a certain amount of being hit that a mage is willing to accept in pvp. If they are hit too much they will add more defense. That defense sacrifices offense, so if they are hit too little, they will add more offense. = A couple years back mages were getting hit in pvp, yet they weren't all parry mages. A mage weapon and overcapped DCI was enough to maintain the balance. It was not the inherent offense of the parry/mage template that lead to its overuse... it was the need for the defense.
2. There are better mage templates than the focus mage with parry. If you want to see more mage templates without parry, there has to be something that returns the balance to what it used to be. If that balance were to return, there would be some mage who will keep their parry and be very very hard to hit. However, I think that many mages in pvp would naturally migrate to other templates. They would change not because parry got nerfed, but because the advantage over the balance point didn't make sense anymore.

1) the vision is clear, sure that's how it works.
2) What better mage templates are there than a Focused-Parry-Mage? I do see what you mean, I just disagree because of how well-rounded on both defense and offense a standard parry-mage is. Personally I wouldn't switch from parry (I already don't use it) I've said before the offense of a "focus mage" is good enough, there's no reason to invest more into offense, so why drop parry? It's not like 10% SDI from scribe is going to make a difference, but at the same time there are very very limited options for a focus mage to pick up that wouldn't drop focus spec. The choices are literally: Scribe, Alchemy, Hiding, Parry, Poisoning or Healing if Anatomy+Eval = weapon skill (you'd be able to have 2 3 with enough skill modification through items).

The hard part about the theory I proposed is where you find the balance point, and how you get there.

1. I believe very small, incremental changes are the way to go.
2. You really only have two options to change the balance back: Give mages another way to maintain their defense (maybe higher DCI caps) or limit the effectiveness of dexxers offense.

1) Most definitely, the Devs absolutely need to do that. It's the easiest way to maintain a good balance even if something isn't done the way it was intended.
2) Higher dci caps already exist at the sacrifice of meditation via Refinements. Edit: and resist caps*

Limiting the offense of dexers requires more elaboration, because to me Dexers are already limited which is why any mage is able to compete against them. Range, attacks speed <> stamina, and of course RNG of hitting. Mages on the other hand, play based on that it's the mages timing vs just about everything the dexer does.

 

[MalagAste]

Every time the community jumps to nerf we end with another fotm op temp. It's been an endless cycle for ages.

It's time we looked at ways to bring other temps up to par instead of nerfing.

The other thing that always happens when folk want to balance PvP is that templates get killed then for PvM... to the point where they become unusable for PvE...

I'd like it if balancing changes for PvP only effected PvP...

And could we please get rid of "I hit a freaking Mongbat from my stairs while recalling home and now I can't switch characters for 5 min?!?!? Seriously!?" please... leave the Fel sillyness in Fel please and leave it to PvP and PvPET.

 

[Merus]

2) What better mage templates are there than a Focused-Parry-Mage? I do see what you mean, I just disagree because of how well-rounded on both defense and offense a standard parry-mage is. Personally I wouldn't switch from parry (I already don't use it) I've said before the offense of a "focus mage" is good enough, there's no reason to invest more into offense, so why drop parry? It's not like 10% SDI from scribe is going to make a difference, but at the same time there are very very limited options for a focus mage to pick up that wouldn't drop focus spec. The choices are literally: Scribe, Alchemy, Hiding, Parry, Poisoning or Healing if Anatomy+Eval = weapon skill (you'd be able to have 2 3 with enough skill modification through items).

I would love to play:
120 Mystic
120 Mage
120 Focus
120 Eval
120 Resist
100 Alchy
20+40 jewelry of anatomy (target 60 would be the same as 100 wrestling when disarmed)

Debuff: Curse then stack Spellplague/Explode/Flamstrike/Nova/Spelltigger (ouch, if I don't say so myself)
You have stoneform, cleansing wind, sleep and healing stone available

But... with just a mage weapon as defense in todays dexxer environment, it just isn't really survivable.

 

[Acid Rain]

3) a Parry-Mage already has arguably the "Best" offense in the game, with no doubt about it the "Best" Defense in the game.

I would argue that parry mages are in no way close to the best offense in the game. They trade DPS for survivability.
There are several mage templates that include mysticism or necro that easily have stronger offense then a parry mage(higher dps).
There are several templates that are much stronger in defense as well, ex : Add bushido to any parry template & healing gives more defense.
If your comment refers to parry mages as having BOTH the best offense & defense in the game then I would say that is due to the archer
+210 stam suit w/ double hit spells. Parry mage templates have stepped up to deal w/ survivability against ranged attackers.

Parry mages also sacrifice mana in a big way to hit that dex 80 necessity or even more, 84 if u have 120 resists & plan for a curse.
Its mandatory in PvP to have at least around 145 hit points. Between HP(mandatory) & DEX(mandatory), most players have to squeeze in
mana lastly. Mana is the mages bread & butter for damage & yet its the last consideration for a PvP template. I consider that
sacrifice. As mentioned earlier in the thread, sure some players in billion gold suits don't have this problem but balancing the game
for outliers of the Bell Curve sadly isn't very practical.

I also don't see the ability to chug being critical. Since the balanced property was introduced, everyone can chug on any template.

IMO, weapon speed and weapon effects got out of balance... splinter, disarm, hit spell, hit velocity, etc, etc. These effects now hit at a much higher % (70% hit fireball, etc) and proc on a weapon with much higher speed being easily achieved (1.25 swing speed). To top it off, they can hit with that level of % and weapon speed while moving.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[CovenantX]

I would argue that parry mages are in no way close to the best offense in the game. They trade DPS for survivability.

What offense do they trade?

Edit: Adding necro or mystic to a mage doesn't add DPS, it lowers it. you're mistaking utility for added damage.

 

[Acid Rain]

Both necro & mysticism have spells that do damage over time. Magery has none(exception being poison which is easily negated).
Those spells definitely add DPS. Spell Plague for mystics & Spell Trigger are HUGE additions to DPS.
Both of which a parry mage must trade off for defense.

 

[CovenantX]

To clarify it more...

Focus spec = 30% SDI
non-focus spec = 15% SDI

If what you say is true, there would be more Parry-mystics (I'd mention parry-necro, but mana regen would be a little harder to maintain). not more Parry-focused mages.

Another thing is Defense = Offense for a parry-mage, because Parry pretty much only effects weapon-users. which is normally their only source of interrupting.

 

[CovenantX]

Both necro & mysticism have spells that do damage over time. Magery has none(exception being poison).
Those spells definitely add DPS. Spell Plague for mystics & Spell Trigger are HUGE additions to DPS.
Both of which a parry mage must trade off for defense.

and it takes longer to cast those extra spells hence lower DPS.

 

[Acid Rain]

Length of casting doesn't negate DPS, it just slightly lower DPS.
I would argue even w/ that consideration, DPS is still higher compared to a parry mage.
Also, spell trigger has no casting time as all PvPs go into a fight with it already cast.

 

[CovenantX]

I also don't see the ability to chug being critical. Since the balanced property was introduced, everyone can chug on any template.

I would agree with you except one thing, Balanced weapons cannot Parry.

 

[Acid Rain]

No one with a balanced weapon is using parry in PvP (generally). PvP weps are generally archery & single handed.
The fact that relatively no one in the game is PvPing w/ a two-handed weapon trying to utilize parry makes your point moot.

 

[chester rockwell]

Timers on refresh pots!!!

 

[CovenantX]

No one with a balanced weapon is using parry in PvP (generally). PvP weps are generally archery & single handed.
The fact that relatively no one in the game is PvPing w/ a two-handed weapon trying to utilize parry makes your point moot.

That IS the point... this is saying, Parry needs a rebalance AS well as Archery. not one or the other.

You know, I can't understand why it's so hard to see.

Focused Parry mage = 35% block chance+ /able to chug+/ not able to be disarmed+ / 30% SDI cap+/ up to 140 less skill points used in the template+ (Without skill mod items).
120 mage
120 eval-int
120 resist
120 parry
120 wrestling OR 100 anatomy
120-140 ????

Where's the trade-off?

Parry Mystic = 35% Block chance+ /not able to chug without disarming first- /able to be disarmed (Mage weapon)- - SDI drop to 15%- /no skill points free-.
120 mage
120 eval-int
120 resist
120 focus
120 mystic
120 parry
Nothing but trade offs

Parry Dexer = 20%*-35% block chance+ / only able to chug with *one-handed weapons or disarming / Able to be disarmed (which stops offense)/ No skill points free-.
120 weapon skill (swords, fencing, macing or throwing)
120 tactics
120 parry
120 resist
120 anatomy
120 healing
Sacrifice something for bushido - Bushido Lowers your chance to block with a shield if equal or higher to parry skill =0% shield-block chance, increases parry to 40% with two-handed weapons. (still unable to chug without switching weapons or disarming)
nothing but trade offs.

 

[Acid Rain]

So parry needs a rebalance because (excluding other reasons) no one uses 2-handed weps utilizing parry in PvP ?
Its been that way for over a decade. I still think an argument including that premise is moot.

Add mysticism to a mage template & a player loses 15%sdi. That was the point to the focused caster template implemented well over a year ago.

My argument is that any good necro mage or mystic mage should be able to defeat any parry mage. The trade off is that generally when you add
more casting disciplines to a mage template your DPS will (should if you know how to play the template) increase. Another trade off is most
parry mages run w/o meditation or VERY little leaving 1 mana dump (which is easily avoided by any PvP dexer by simply moving) then 2mins
of playing dodge the arrow while waiting for mana to fill.

Parry mages are templates specifically created to thwart a dexer and gives up both offense & stat points.
Of course that template can't be disarmed.... they have nothing in their hand for the express purpose of a chug. Again a moot point.
Would you argue that shields should be able to disarm? If so that's just a bad idea.

Again, the recent influx of parry mages in PvP is a direct result of +210 stam suits & double hit spell weapons which have dominated the game
in PvP for over 2 years. If a team of dexers isn't rolling with a mystic mage or necro mage to deal with someone else's parry mage, their
planning is at fault not the game mechanics. One strangle & the parry mage's casting is temporarily finished.

Let me be clear on the nerf stick. I'd don't think either templates need a nerf. Players have assessed the situation & adapted accordingly.
If our DEV team wishes to diversify PvP templates I would simply suggest to tread carefully. Most good PvP teams have already taken
into consideration the need for various templates to achieve a well rounded force. Those teams that haven't come to stratics boards to cry.

 

[King Greg]

You know, I can't understand why it's so hard to see.

You and I have both already tried arguing the point of parrying being most beneficial to mages. Its not hard to see, they just don't want to admit it.

I would not support lowering the speed of archers though, because of its impact on PVM. Lowering the hit chance of running shot is definitely solid, or maybe making it do a stacking debuff on the character for hit chance/swing speed based on the number of times its used, but only when it lands. Kind of like the second blow on a double strike.

The fact that relatively no one in the game is PvPing w/ a two-handed weapon trying to utilize parry makes your point moot.

His point is that you can't use a two handed weapon, parry, and chug. Have to sacrifice something, Every class other than mages has to sacrifice something in order to Fully utilize Parrying.

Both necro & mysticism have spells that do damage over time. Magery has none(exception being poison which is easily negated).
Those spells definitely add DPS. Spell Plague for mystics & Spell Trigger are HUGE additions to DPS.
Both of which a parry mage must trade off for defense.

They aren't HUGE additions to dps when compared to the ease of being able to hit 40% sdi cap without them. I would say if anything, that they are roughly on par with one another for total damage.

Assuming Cursed Target
Necro Mage - Evil Omen, Explo, Flamestrike, Evil omen, Before Flamestrike Lands, Pain Spike. The Evil Omens turn a 15% Sdi mages spells into a 43% Sdi mages spells + The pain spike, but the time required to get in those 3 extra spells a pure mage can toss out a lightning or even two depending on your connection, resulting in roughly the same damage. Now factor the block chance and the success rate to get off the full combo and its obvious why players are playing pure parry mages.

Mystic Mage - Spell Plague + Explo + Flamestrike + Spell Trigger.
The total damage output isn't much higher than a pure scribe mage Lightning + explo + Flamestrike + Lightning (Same time to cast roughly). And the spell trigger is a one time use.

The other mage classes are better for Utility, but not for damage output.

 

[CovenantX]

I would not support lowering the speed of archers though, because of its impact on PVM. Lowering the hit chance of running shot is definitely solid, or maybe making it do a stacking debuff on the character for hit chance/swing speed based on the number of times its used, but only when it lands. Kind of like the second blow on a double strike.

It makes sense, it may or may not be enough but that's why we have testing. It's a matter of how much of a hit chance penalty, if it would effect anything other than moving shot. sounds pretty solid though.

You know the best part about it is moving shot used to have a hit chance penalty associated with it (not so much a stacking one) but it no longer has that and it's something I often forget about being removed in the first place.