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Fair enough, they could probably fix it to where this works.
No, it doesn't only affect turning. As I explained already, EC updates faster than CC. Yes, it might not affect the actual speed, but it affects the appearance of speed, which is just as important, if not worse for a CC player, because on CC your opponent will appear to be 1 tile slower than they appear on EC- which means they are literally always 1 step ahead of you. Sometimes when you are on CC, an EC player will appear to JUMP a few tiles at once. It's because of the clients updating at different speeds.
They are effective, no doubt, but they are not overpowered. All you have to do to avoid them is to have the presence of mind not to run through them. If you are chasing your opponent into a choke point, and they drop them and you run through a DOUBLE conflag you are playing way too aggressively. If they are both dropped, and you see them dropped, and you run through both of them, not only are you played way too aggressively, but you are playing like a completely mindless drone.
Double conflags help smaller groups separate themselves and get kills on larger groups. They are easy to avoid if you have the presence of mind, but many people fall victim to them all of the time because they do not have the presence of mind.
I'm sorry, but when something mostly only works on noobs, it's not overpowered.
I've never died in a double conflag. However, I still stand by the notion of a timer on all pots. Cure, refresh, conflag, exp......etc.
The straight line speed isnt an issue. You can put one dude in EC and one dude in CC (modded or not). Race 'em, then change over clients on each person and repeat.....the result is the same. The difference is when you have a person in CC (modded) with the EC benefits in a non-straight-line race against a person with the CC (unmodded)......then it is apparent......and extremely unfair.
Sibble isn't the only EC user I've played with. I know how running on it works better than you do, please stop talking about things you know nothing about.
I believe it does affect the block chance, but I could be wrong on that one.
Attachments
Yeah just looked, cannot be used to parry or evade.
I think this should be fixed to allow both.
Chester, I just explained to you what the difference is. One client updates faster than the other, regardless of whether they are running in a straight line or not. If you are referencing the "turning" advantage that EC has as well, then yes, it also has a MAJOR advantage when running around static objects (like trees), because it will move around the object in one move, instead of two.
Talking about things I know nothing about? Lol... are you for real right now?
You are trying to explain simple mechanics to someone who believes that you can cast a lightning faster than a mini heal. Good luck.
I've run side by side with (or close behind) EC users multiple times. ON THE CLASSIC CLIENT. Not once did I have a problem keeping up with them. Maybe you should start a 45 minute lecture on the proper time to use a cure pot. Or how dexers use bandages to heal themselves, how running keeps you alive, etc. We'd all love to hear that.
Did you finally learn how to do more in fights beyond keep people cursed, how to cast more than Magic Arrow/Fireball, or how to duel in the arena without pots? No? Then please exit stage left.
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Did you die to me 2v1 while I was on foot? Yes?
Did you claim that I had a magic arrow/fireball script that somehow made me cast faster than the rest of UO?
Did you claim that lightning can be cast faster than mini heal?
If yes to all (hint: it is), learn to pvp, then you may partake in a pvp discussion.
Having people like you on here and vocal about stuff they don't even know is scary if the devs listen to "pvpers" (term used extremely loosely) like you.
Great idea. I'll get rid of all my macro'd spells except Curse, Magic Arrow, Fireball, heal/gheal, and cure, add a bandage self macro, and add conflags & supernovas to my list of potion macros. Then I can be just as (not) good as you. Thank you so much for the advice!
edit: In all seriousness, I don't think this thread is going anywhere. While I could troll Bane and Paith all day, I'd prefer to do it in a different thread.
Seeing as how there are only two outcomes when I run into you: You die or you run. Maybe you should try to emulate a winner and get basic game mechanics down. I have them down hence why I can participate in this discussion.
How did this get so far from the topic? -I completely understand why the Stratics moderators (past and present) don't like to deal with pvp-related threads... too many "Hot-Forum" posts (no offense to the Hot Forums or people that post there...)
Apparently the devs do not wish to comment on either of the two following things quite a few people actually seem to agree on...
1) Tactics being required for Weapon Specials = reverted so specials only require a "Weapon Skill" at 70-90 for respective primary/secondary abilities.
2) Weapon Specials being toggled while casting or holding spells.
The rest seems to be mostly between
1) Archery>Moving shot
2) Parry-mages.
3) 4/6 chiv (I don't think chivalry is the problem, but some other things combined with it, more so)
Melee dexers hybrids or pure are still much less effective than the aforementioned templates.
either nerf things down to the level of melee, or bring melee up to the level of everything else.
Either way, there are going to be other problems that need fixing after such changes take place.
-I'm pretty sure there would be much less additional fixes by nerfing things down to the level of melee, then to buff melee up though.
Apparently the devs do not wish to comment on either of the two following things quite a few people actually seem to agree on...
1) Tactics being required for Weapon Specials = reverted so specials only require a "Weapon Skill" at 70-90 for respective primary/secondary abilities.
2) Weapon Specials being toggled while casting or holding spells.
The rest seems to be mostly between
1) Archery>Moving shot
2) Parry-mages.
3) 4/6 chiv (I don't think chivalry is the problem, but some other things combined with it, more so)
Melee dexers hybrids or pure are still much less effective than the aforementioned templates.
either nerf things down to the level of melee, or bring melee up to the level of everything else.
Either way, there are going to be other problems that need fixing after such changes take place.
-I'm pretty sure there would be much less additional fixes by nerfing things down to the level of melee, then to buff melee up though.
And this is the problem with stratics. The most vocal people are most often the one's who are clueless when it comes to game mechanics. You can't come on here and try to make an intelligent argument in a respectful manner about ACTUAL game mechanics without being treated you like you're speaking vodoo/rocket science/nonsense by some ******** scrub; while he insists that things like lightning casting faster than weakens are real.
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Then go to a different thread lol.
I'm not certain how to come to a general census of these without starting a bunch of poll threads.
I guess one could pose each scenario in this thread and hope everyone keeps it to yes or no as we go through the options.
I'm not sold on the tactics removal but would listen to considerations.
How you suppose we go about this?
Well dude lets be fair here, one of your justifications were based on a viagra comparison.
I'm pretty reasonable when considering adjustments but it requires numbers and facts for me to buy into it. Or at the very least a rational argument.
I'm willing to test things thrown my way and draw the conclusion from there.
I take offense to the general label you guys from the Hot forums slap on everyone here.
I've thought about playing ATL for the pvp, but since I play CC I don't want to download a bunch of programs to stay competitive.
So if you have constructive arguments or ones you consider reasonable then by all means let's discuss them.
However let's avoid the, "I know better than you" mentality and we'll get along just fine.
If not the "x" is in the top right corner of your screen.
The only thing I want to change with Tactics, is it should no longer be tied to weapon specials. that's it.
If you want to use weapon specials, you should only need a weapon skill at 70.0-90.0 for primary-secondary respectively. -honestly, I'd rather have that then spec-toggling while casting if I could only choose one. It'll be a buff to some dexer templates (mostly melee) while others (Archers/Throwers) will drop quite a bit of damage if they drop tactics skill.
Also besides obviously giving the player more variety of useful templates.
as a matter of fact, it would more balanced the skill points required between mages and dexers... even though dexers would essentially be giving up their "Eval-int" (in the form of tactics) if they choose not to use it.
The thing is, a dexer is going to have weapon skill + tactics for just weapon-based defense & offense (other then just auto-attacks) + another 1-2 skills as a form of healing.
a mage can literally do everything with Magery, Eval-int, & a weapon skill (without tactics) OR they could just go mage+eval & use a mage-weapon. having the same weapon-based defense, better offense (magery) & healing/curing (many other utility -Magery) capabilities.
-but the devs seem to not EVER comment on it. so I doubt it'll ever happen.
In one breath, you're saying that we should limit ourselves to constructive arguments, that we should throw away the "I know better than you" mentality, and that YOU are open to reasonable arguments; and then in another breath, you're bringing up the viagra comparison in an attempt to imply that I have no idea what I'm talking about- even though the Viagra comparison was 100% a valid point, and you're sort of... proving my point by failing to grasp it.
The makers of Viagra were originally trying to make a medication that would lower it's consumer's blood pressure. They did not anticipate all of their participants getting erections. In other words, IT WAS NOT THEIR ORIGINAL INTENTION TO GIVE PEOPLE BONERS. It was an unintended side affect. However, after they realized that there's millions of men in america that have a hard time "getting it up," they realized that they stumbled upon something valuable.
That's the point... that JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING WAS NOT ORIGINALLY INTENDED- DOES NOT MEAN WE SHOULD COMPLETELY DISMISS IT. I wasn't saying that double conflags are the SAME as viagra, that double conflag'ing will give people boners. What I was saying is that they were both unintended side-affects, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should get rid of them. It's actually a very good example if you just use your brain.
I didn't say I didn't understand what point you were trying to make, but I appreciate you trying to reiterate it.
I simply disagreed with it. Though I wouldn't expect this to put you on tilt, since you have some good points about other things.
It's an understandable thought to put it out there so it's considered, it's just not a justification for having them.
I also never made the insinuation that you said they were the same, I said you made a comparison (perhaps I would have been better off saying analogy?) of the two.
Conflags aside, if the things discussed in the thread to you consider to be the most viable change?
Tactics nerf?
Special toggle?
and btw, I recognize that calling someone a ******** scrub is going off-topic, but it is only response to the trolling and accusations of cheats. The real reason we keep getting off-topic is because people keep crying that the problem with UO is cheats. Right... UO = perfect - cheats. Even though 80-90% of the so called "cheats" you can get just by using EC. Let's focus on game mechanics, and development changes.
It's easy to be derailed in pvp topics.
Some will try to discuss the credibility of a poster rather than the mechanics of the game.
I read the Hot forums off and on, and I believe you have a grasp on mechanics.
I think we can agree to stick to development and mechanics.
Well... you did entirely dismiss my second to last argument simply because of my "viagra" example- even though the two arguments had nothing to do with each other, so yeah, it did come off as condescending. No, I'm not "tilted," whatever that means. I'm just making arguments. Not much emotion on this end.
As far as the special toggle goes, I already made that point, as well as the other changes I thought we should make in a prior post. I think the tactics idea could be a good idea, but as far as they are both concerned, I would caution that part of the problem with the game already is how offensive some templates are and how defensive others are; and these changes could further support that type of specialization- which many already don't like.
Relax a bit buddy, I'm not attacking you.
You don't have to prove anything to me and I'm not aware that we have played with or against each other.
As far as specials would you support making the tactics requirement (or lack of) specific to certain skills.
Such as tactics removal for dex templates only?
Or a skill level for others?
Dude. I already said that it MIGHT be a timing issue; I'm going to leave it at that though. But please do not sit here and tell me, when I have multiple examples of EC users (off the top of my head, at least 3 different people) running in a straight line, that it allows for faster straight line running than the Classic Client. I have both the CC & EC, and two accounts - should I record me auto-following myself and prove you wrong? Is it better? Yes, I won't argue that. Honest question: How many EC users do you play with/against? I know a vast majority of pvp'ers use the CC, so it can't be too many.
Check your ego at the door and take the L. btw, your first post in this thread? You were being a condescending *******. The problem isn't with Stratics, it's with you. Everyone had different ideas on what to change (other than balancing for 1v1), but I'm 99% sure there was very little flaming/trolling until your post.
LOLOL everyone posting that cheats make no difference are all the people using the cheats, if UO did police it guarantee all those people would quit playing UO. There is only about 20-40 pvpers that obviously exploit this game, just banning them would greatly improve pvp. Bane you have zero ground to stand on as a real pvper, there is no such thing as top tier pvper's, there is obvious cheaters and good pvpers. what a joke this thread has become due to the obvious cheaters saying it makes no difference yet wont play without using them. Havnt you noticed bane that the only people u see are hi5 and paiths guild pvping anymore. Those groups that are cheating, then you combine that with unbalanced things in pvp and its become completely dead. Lets fix the OP templates in pvp then get rid of the uo losers that need cheats afterwards.
What if the specials toggle is reinstated if you have 120 Real Weapon Skill and 120 Real Tactics? Instead of nerfing it they could of balanced it. Like you need 240 total skill points. In Melee/Tactics/Anatomy so technically you could have 90 Swords 90 Tact 60 Anat. They can't just put it back to what it was I don't think. I personally would find it fair to put in a skill requirement. Personally again..I like the 120/120 real skill, but with so many skill items it might be more fair to put in a total skill requirement for more hybrid templates i.e. Tactic/Heal/Mages
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You'd suck even with cheats...I don't know why you always continue to talk. If you need AUO for leet macros or CE or any other acronym for anything in UO other than mindlessly farming Tram..your opinion is moot! If you consider my art file hacks as ground breaking mechanic game destroying flaws and somehow make someone better at pvp you're delusional. I don't know how many times I can explain the basic basic basic basic outcome of using speed hacks. If server side cap is 3 tiles/sec idc what program you use, you CANNNNNNNOT exceed that server cap. 10 or maybe even more years ago the cap was client side, and could be bypassed. As well as impassible flags. So again..shut up! You know not what you're talking abooot! However! Auto Box Scripts SHOULD be a jailable offense. Potion Scripts are useless..Healing Scripts are useless. Any actual pvper can outsmart a script. Maybe not YOU...but most can.
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Yeah, because you're so good that you've never died 1v1, right? Not even to flamestrike spam that you tried to mini-heal through? PS: when you die to repeated flamestrikes 1v1, you literally have no room whatsoever to talk about other people being bad.
I do notice you ignored the 100m offer..it's ok keep flapping trash bags
I never said I was even better than average. However you and DC are literally tiers wayyyyy below. So what's that make you 
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Since I'll never die to Flamestrike spam 1v1 (unless I've cliented), better than you. Thanks for playing though.I do notice you ignored the 100m offer..it's ok keep flapping trash bagsI never said I was even better than average. However you and DC are literally tiers wayyyyy below. So what's that make you
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Lol... Cossack... How are you going to "prove me wrong," when... NO ONE SAID THAT A PLAYER RUNNING IN A STRAIGHT LINE WILL RUN FASTER ON EC THAN ON CC. You're arguing an imaginary discussion lol. But my point, has been, several times, that THERE ARE OTHER ADVANTAGES TO EC. And it doesn't matter how many people I pvp with or against on the EC. It only takes 1- and I can even use it myself- and I HAVE.
Everyone had different ideas on what to change? Yes, so did I; but I wasn't the one who started crying about "cheats." All of my previous points about EC were in RESPONSE to the noobs crying on here that the REAL problem with UO is cheats.
I have zero ground to stand on as a real pvper? Dude, are you the Stillborn I killed on catskills in my first year playing a mage? What cheats do you suppose I was using then? Lol
I've even had people accuse me of using casting scripts lol. Scripts will only ever be good for bad players. They will always work as crutches and limit a person's potential, because one size doesn't fit all. Every situation in UO is well... situational. You can't make a script that's as adaptive as a person is.
Actually, you did:
The other advantages of EC aside (which I admitted to. I also know takes a while to set up, I've tried to make a couple macros & got annoyed with it. Plus there are those god-awful graphics), it actually does not run or update faster, at least not to the point that it lets you run like some people are currently doing in the Classic Client.
There was also this:
You're going on and on about the EC's running mechanics when you're clearly clueless. I could name several CC users who run a hell of a lot faster than EC players. If that isn't, in fact, cheating, I would love to hear what your definition of it actually is. fwiw, the real problem IS cheats: You have multiple players (who are known CC users) at Yew Gate on Atl tile-skipping their asses off, performing actions faster/more consistently than a human can (exploitable or not, scripts CAN do this), and I've even seen one guy multi-boxing with several mystic mages. But hey, you're right, they don't make a difference whatsoever. The real problem is the disparity in CC/EC functionality.
Exactly. Scripting in PVP doesn't have very many use cases. Making things happen automatically in a PVP situation is a liability. There aren't too many things one is going to want automated here. This is the major thing that 3rd party programs have over EC, and it's used in PvP are very limited. However scripts have many uses in tram and farming and PvE. This is where the cheats are truly making an impact. It's easy to automate encounters against NPCs / monsters, and there are countless use cases here.
that is pretty much fact.
i said it before and i say it again, with Pvp there is no secrets, no spell casting hack, no swing speed hacks, nothing, if there was anything that gets you a good advantage using something, everyone would know and use it.
Well, that's something isn't it?... mostly this part.
Those that don't know, or do know and don't use it... it's an advantage. your words, not mine. The fact of the matter is, if cheating didn't offer any advantages... No one would do it.
However... Fixing/stopping this form of "cheating" isn't the important part... It would do good for the longevity of the game, but it wouldn't be good to "fix it" in the games current state.
I'm pretty sure the Devs realize this. -End of Story.
Let's get the "balancing" ideas flowing again shall we?
Can someone please explain to cossack that UPDATING faster, is not the same thing as physically RUNNING in game faster?
I've explained it over and over again and apparently he seems more intent on repeating his moot point than listening to what I have to say.
I understand that this discussion is just a subset of the views of the community and that some of the combat changes the community proposes will effect PvM and PvP. Nothing discussed here is set in stone as the team’s current focus is to finish Publish 95 which will not include any balance changes.
· Balance should be based off 1v1 which is confirmed by the community. Rock, Paper, Scissors.
· Moving shot needs to be adjusted without touching the damage.
· Corpse Skin + Curse should not stack from the same “Focused Spec” caster.
· Based on the feedback from my question: Do you feel that removing over capped DCI has removed some of the variety in mage templates and why? I have a new question: Do you feel that the addition of balanced weapons which increase the max dci cap would add to the meta?
· As for Siege, I feel that the Siege community are the only ones who know what their needs are for enjoyable combat. We are open to suggestions that will improve the overall experience of the Siege player base. As a Siege player, what should the cost be to participate in PvP?
· Let’s talk about Tactics being required for weapon specials. So my first thoughts on this have been no, no, and a decided no. But every story has multiple sides and I would like to push the discussion of this topic. I feel that by removing Tactics requirement for weapon specials we would be removing the value of Tactics from the game. This would be a huge change in terms of combat as the invest skill points used for Tactics would be used in other skills. So what new templates would you make after this change and why? What are your thoughts on increased mana cost for Tactics less activation? Understanding that this change affects all combat what value does this bring to PvM?
· “If we are talking about putting special moves back can I please have them back while in forms? It's stupid to have them unable to be used just because I changed forms.” Maybe the forms need special moves of their own?
· I’m not a fan of “Weapon Specials being toggled while casting or holding spells” as it was stated during the discussion this would increase burst damage templates and would have too big of an impact on the current meta.
· I would like to get more of the community’s feelings on allowing shields to be disarmed or why should we continue to not allow shields to be disarmed? There have been some light responses but I would like to hear more meat and potatoes
· Balance should be based off 1v1 which is confirmed by the community. Rock, Paper, Scissors.
· Moving shot needs to be adjusted without touching the damage.
· Corpse Skin + Curse should not stack from the same “Focused Spec” caster.
· Based on the feedback from my question: Do you feel that removing over capped DCI has removed some of the variety in mage templates and why? I have a new question: Do you feel that the addition of balanced weapons which increase the max dci cap would add to the meta?
· As for Siege, I feel that the Siege community are the only ones who know what their needs are for enjoyable combat. We are open to suggestions that will improve the overall experience of the Siege player base. As a Siege player, what should the cost be to participate in PvP?
· Let’s talk about Tactics being required for weapon specials. So my first thoughts on this have been no, no, and a decided no. But every story has multiple sides and I would like to push the discussion of this topic. I feel that by removing Tactics requirement for weapon specials we would be removing the value of Tactics from the game. This would be a huge change in terms of combat as the invest skill points used for Tactics would be used in other skills. So what new templates would you make after this change and why? What are your thoughts on increased mana cost for Tactics less activation? Understanding that this change affects all combat what value does this bring to PvM?
· “If we are talking about putting special moves back can I please have them back while in forms? It's stupid to have them unable to be used just because I changed forms.” Maybe the forms need special moves of their own?
· I’m not a fan of “Weapon Specials being toggled while casting or holding spells” as it was stated during the discussion this would increase burst damage templates and would have too big of an impact on the current meta.
· I would like to get more of the community’s feelings on allowing shields to be disarmed or why should we continue to not allow shields to be disarmed? There have been some light responses but I would like to hear more meat and potatoes
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My humble opinion / quick hits:
- Leave Moving Shot as is. I disagree with nerfing this special move in any shape or form.
- Stacking curses, as noted, needs some type of adjustment. I do think there should be some minor benefit to casting both, but it's currently over powered. A floor for resists affected is needed.
- Leave Tactics as is.
- A weapons special should not be allowed to be toggled while a spell is being held. One or the other should reset.
- Allow shields to be disarmed.
- Further changes to PVP should take a back seat to priorities of the upcoming publish in November and the pet revamp coming in Q1 2017.
It has only because of HLD and the damage output of archers. Now it's pretty much required to have parry to dial down DPS. Before it wasn't so bad because You weren't getting instantly smoked when HLD nailed you.
However in the parry Mage it allowed too much of a benefit and where they'd never drop below the 67.5% block/dodge.
Balanced two handed weapons will have to be able to parry and evade, but yes that'd help a lot. I think this is a good idea.
I'm not a fan of removing tactics across the board.
I could see say removing tactics from something like nerve strike as a secondary special as long as you have 120 real bushido, just as an example.
Another option would be to lower the cap or damage output if they do not have tactics.
Say armor ignore with tactics is 35, and without let's say 20.
But to just remove it I'm not sold on.
No specials for ninjutsu forms.
· I would like to get more of the community’s feelings on allowing shields to be disarmed or why should we continue to not allow shields to be disarmed? There have been some light responses but I would like to hear more meat and potatoes
This pretty much combats one template which is wrestle parry Mage, (and parry Mage but no one in their right mind is running around with just 35% in parry blocking, they'd be better off just having wrestling).
So yes I'm in favor of this. It drops 67.5% to 50% block along with dropping any mods on the shield.
Seems to even that template out with the rest at first glance.
Moving shot - adjust it because moving shot isn't used in pvm. you can adjust the damage of it if need be, but do not adjust the damage on the Bows or throwing weapons.
it's specifically a moving shot adjustment, not an Archery or Throwing adjustment.
Corpse Skin & Curse should not stack with the cap resistances of the target starting to reduce the cap resistances from the "new cap" after one of the debuffs is already applied.
Lowering resistances down to 45 is terrible, it's going to push very small groups or solo players AWAY from the game, because they won't be able to compete against groups regardless of how good they are.
I'll tell you, one thing that makes pvp truly unique in UO, is that a single player can beat many people by actually being "good" at the game, name any other MMO like that?
Currently Curse & Corpse are broken. if you're affected by Both doesn't matter how many people cast it on you, you get to 70/45/60/45/60, Fire & Poison resistances are reduced by the "new cap" of 60 (from Curse) it should NOT be that way, it should be the cap = 70 -10/70 =60 from curse & -15/70 from corpse = 55. it'll still stack, but not starting the 2nd stack from the new cap resistances.
If you're saying stacking should only drop allow poison and fire to drop to 55, I agree with this, requiring two people.
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