Dev's You need to take a Hard look into Stealth on Siege Perilous

[Guest]

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You can spew all the garbage and hatred you want, but Savage and Kelmo's posts were spot on. This whole discussion is a waste of time. Tracking and Detect are the balance to hiding and stealth. When your detectors are around, you have no problem whatsoever killing stealthers.

The problem is that most of you don't want to spend the points on those skills, so you cry for a nerf instead.

Pathetic!

Go to a Trammel shard if you want passive detect.

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not all the way wrong, passive detect is indeed a wrong approach. but the devs clearly said they will focus on stealthing in the near future so giving some ideas isnt wrong at all.


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When your detectors are around, you have no problem whatsoever killing stealthers.

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im sure you ran a detector thoo and know what your talking about [/sarcasm]

 

[Guest]

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Why not? The stealther invests his points and the counter should require a similar investment of points. Don't forget, a stealthers who has invested points in such skills, are not nearly as powerful as someone who hasn't. Saying that anyone who wants to fight a stealther shouldn't have to invest points to track or detect them would be a SEVERE imbalance.

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weakness of a stealther? like what? how would a good template with hide/stealth in it be weaker than a good one who doesnt?


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That's the thing, Freja, they aren't invisible while fighting. That would be impossible.

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they arent? its obvious you are in the stealthercrew, otherwise you would know. let me show you a battle against a few stealthers.

1. 1 stealtharcher: dismount and instantly smokebombing
2. 3 stealtharchers and 3 stealthtamers: attack and instantly smokebombing


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I look at hiding and stealth similar to the way I view the resisting spells skill. A player with hiding and stealth can get away without running resist because he has the ability to to retreat if necessary, but the investment in skill points also makes him less dangerous than someone who doesn't have hiding and stealth.


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yeah, but you still dont seem to realize it. if you dont have resisting spells, you have 2 things being horrible for you, namely mana vampire and bloodoath. against anything else there are items to counter it like petals, trapped boxes etc. hiding and stealth however has the only weakness that you cant have the 180+ invested points in another skill at the same time. well guess what, thats for any skill, not just hiding and stealth. but there are no other 3 skills (combined with ninjitsu) that give you such an amount of defensive and offensive power.



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I think the recent stealth/ninja/tamer nerf took care of bringing balance back to Siege and other shards as well.

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stealth/ninja/tamer? thats what is hould have been, however it was only tamer nerf, so atm we working on the rest. but of course if you asked jsv it would have been perfectly balanced before and if you ask the right guild, its perfectly balanced right now

however yet again i have to say, the goal of this certainly shouldnt be passive detect, the idea isnt to make stealth useless. in my opinion, stealth should still have the same defensive power. but smokebombing 1 second after poping out of hiding to attack someone cant be it. if you think that is balanced then its obvious how you play your template.

 

[Spree]

They should make stealthers count their steps like they used to. It is an advanced shard make it harder for them to use their scardy cat skills.

 

[imported_John Connelly]

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And stealthers back then was not 90% of the server.... like now...

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If 90% of the shard are stealthers. it would be a bad business move to change the skill for the benefit of the other 10%.

 

[Guest]

Maybe we should just:
1. Remove smoke bombs from Siege or make them not work if agressore. It's ok if attacked so a PvM'er or crafter can use it as escape.

2. Make players able to push stealthers out of hiding

I still find I should be able to track someone close to me with low tracking skills. 100 tracking should be able to track several screens away. Tracking was nerfed badly some years ago because the stealthers was crying.

I may go against my guild here but this is how I feel about stealth/ninja/something.

I did have gm hiding in the past and in most cases I successed get away fine and behind something and hide. Yes I could be tracked, but when they found me I was healed up and ready to fight again.

I really don't see why stealthers was crying, they could do the same and even move around so they was harder to find. Now they can run around invisible so they do have it very easy.

I think the tracking arrow is the problem, move it to a corner and make it only show if target is N/NE/E/SE/S/SW/W/NW or bring back old text telling 'Freja is SW'.

 

[Guest]

No one other than SP players have even posted in this thread... LOL

 

[UncleSham]

why ... just why .

how come every time something works poeple have come come to the devs and cry?

nerf the tamers, nerf the archers, nerf the necros, nerf the bushies, nerf the stealthers

WAA !

omg poeple grow up and fend for your selves . the devs cant fix everything for you .

there are very usable counters to stealth , you just arent willing to invest the points to do so.

poeple invest alot of points to have that ability . you want the chickens to do it for you ? come on. you already have detect hidden which by the way is one skill that can counter up to three (hide stealth ninja) .not to mention a few non skill methods. (conlflags earthquake etc)

ive spent considerable time rebuilding one of my guys to counter stealthers . now that hes near ready you want to break out the nerf bat again . frankly im getting sick of changing my template every time someone crys nerf . well how about you change yours and addapt ?

stealth is one of the reasons i like siege . passive detect pretymuch ruined that skill on every other shard . kelmo hit that one dead on . this is SIEGE not every other shard . you want those rules there are plenty of places you can play.

(holy $#!T, i just agreed with kelmo . whats this world coming to ?)

for real poeple stop calling for a nerf every time something works , prety soon were all going to be nerfed into rolling the dice to see who wins .

ha boxcars ! hand over the loot noob
*dances on your dice 'cause corpses got removed*
(someone was offended)

edit = besides there are plenty of issues id like to see the devs spend time on ... this hardly ranks above cheaters and faction fixes. you guys have made a great start there . you go ! love the idea that were getting an event . soon maybe you can look into flagging bugs,house loot bugs, script looters and gate crashes .
and i know you think you stopped speedhackers ... um , you havent . please look again.

 

[Guest]

*Bump*

 

[imported_SavageSP]

If you had your way and stealth was effectively nerfed from being usable, what do you think all those Stealth Pvpers are going to do with their Templets?
And what are you thinking the end result would be on the field?

There would be more Visable People to fight, but thats not going to fix the problem with Zergs, the severly outnumbered will stay in the GZ or a house, whatever guild is outnumbered or outclassed at that givin time.

The cheating is going to increase, not decrease, some of the ones that were able to get away legally before will get tired of being chased down by people with remakably better connections, and get "better connections" themselves.

Archers will drop ninja,and stealth at a minimum, replacing them with Resist and Med to chain more Moving Shots and Armor Ignore.
Other stealth warrior templets will be forced to add forms of healing or resist, some will go SW or Chiv to cut down on Item loss, making more "naked" and "Evasion" based templets.
Moving Shot, Nerve Strike, Pixies, non item based based templets, and anything that a warrior or "naked" player finds effective will become the New complaints and next in line to be nerfed.

I personnally dont like playing a mage or a necro, alot of people either dont like them or cant play them for various reasons. Anything other then those 2 are considered "Gimp" by the "elite players", and everyone else is a "scrub".
I dont see changing stealth as an improvement, the following day there would be a post here about some other thing that needs to be nerfed because its being used by non mages and works, and the cheating would only increase making all PvP bogus and BS.

Ive only been a Siege Player for 2 years, I dont know what the "Glory Days" were.
Were the Glory Days 1 guild steamrolling the Shard? How many consider that Glorious?
Or were they alot of solo/2-4 Players running around dishing out Justice and Death.
Is nerfing Stealth/Ninja going to do away with Zergs, nope. I dont think it would do anything to make UO or Siege anything closer to the way it was either. Just more Visable Targets that cant get away, including the ones not built to fight.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

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Jeremiah, this whole discussion is silly. It is just a few fellows that hate losing to good tactics. Any character devoted to stealth on Siege has many weaknesses. There are many ways to detect a stealther.

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You are not the voice of Siege nor do you have the power to comment for the entire shard.

This discussion is very valid and you are no body to tell anybody what is and isn't silly.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

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Whether a stealther makes a well timed strike in a team battle for a kill is of little overall consequence

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its seems like you dont want to see the problem. stealthers become a big consequence when its turns from one stealther out of a group to a group with not a single nonstealther in it. and id be interested in your top 3 list of important things to change for uo/siege.

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It's ok Shak... he thinks that his thoughts and his priorities seem to be the most important. As long as he's not inconvenienced it's a-o-k and if he is inconvenienced then that's automatically the number 1 issue!

For Example:

He cried about factions on UOHall about a year ago and got laughed at... and threw a hissy-fit about it. If it's not important to him, he'll definitely try and make it seem unimportant... but if it is important to him... oh boy, DEVS FIX THIS!!!!

If only he'd understand that he's nobody important... then maybe we can get some actual fixes accomplished more often than once every 2 years with all the politicking he does.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

Oh and to add to the discussion...


If the forumla for revealing someone was such:

% detect hidden + % magery versus % hiding + % stealth


for revealing with the magery spell reveal...

all would be good.

 

[imported_SavageSP]

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Oh and to add to the discussion...


If the forumla for revealing someone was such:

% detect hidden + % magery versus % hiding + % stealth


for revealing with the magery spell reveal...

all would be good.

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I think that would be fair because you would have to have Detect on your Templet (120 Mage+80 Detect=200 to have a 50/50 chance to detect 100 Hide+ 100 Stealth= 200). Most run 100Hide 75 Stealth, so your odds would be better then 50/50, but it shouldnt be able to be spamed with no timer.

This discussion was brought up with detect skill, 10 seconds may be too long, but it still needs some timer, and so would the spell... say like 5 seconds?

 

[Guest]

99% of the time when you guys are stealthing you are in animal form...

So I have detect and what have I noticed.... that as soon as I detect you guys there is no getting u on target because u just smoke bomb and I have to wait 10 seconds before I can detect again...

where is the balance in this?

 

[Guest]

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99% of the time when you guys are stealthing you are in animal form...

So I have detect and what have I noticed.... that as soon as I detect you guys there is no getting u on target because u just smoke bomb and I have to wait 10 seconds before I can detect again...

where is the balance in this?

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There is a 10 second timer on the smoke bomb as well, try again...?

 

[imported_SavageSP]

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99% of the time when you guys are stealthing you are in animal form...

So I have detect and what have I noticed.... that as soon as I detect you guys there is no getting u on target because u just smoke bomb and I have to wait 10 seconds before I can detect again...

where is the balance in this?

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Your Detecting every 10 seconds, Im hiding every 10 seconds or Smokebombing if aggroed every 10 seconds burning 10 mana a pop and possibly running out of bombs, if thats a 1 on 1 its pretty even, if its a gank then the stealther is hardly at an advantage, especially if one of yall has 20+ tracking. 20 human has been the death of me more then once, kinda sucks that 20 human tracking can pick up a 100/75 stealther as much as it does and the track lasts just as long as someone with 100 Tracking.

But like I said in response to BR, I wouldnt have a problem with the 10 second detect timer being reduced, as long as it wasnt below 5 seconds, but I hardly speak for anyone but myself.
I just think it's a reasonable compromise, considering you would have to have the Detect Skill on your templet and you dont have a 100% chance to detect, just as long as it cant be endlessly spammed every 2 seconds when im having to wait 10 seconds to use an item im eventually going to run out of and burns 10 mana per use on my No Med Templet.

As far as the animal form goes, there are very few Ninjas on Siege that fight in animal form. Most of us Fight in Human to use specials, cast spells, deathstrike etc.
When we are in animal form, its for defence and movement, not attack, and it we get revealed in that form its just as much of a disadvantage to be showing in form, risking dismount which puts us on foot and unable to hit the Smoke Bomb because we get the you cant use that right now message timer, no different then being dismount screwed off your horse.

 

[imported_John Connelly]

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If the forumla for revealing someone was such:

% detect hidden + % magery versus % hiding + % stealth


for revealing with the magery spell reveal...

all would be good.

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That would make Reveal which is one spell in 63 much too overpowered. Magery already allows healing, curing, offensive spells, defensive spells, transport, invis etc. Even without Detect Hidden your formula would allow a GM Mage to reveal a player with GM Hiding and GM Stealth 50% of the time. It is nonsense to expect 200 skill points to be nullified by 1/63 of a skill 50% of the time.

I suggest the formula for Reveal to work be:

% Skill in Magery / 63 + % Skill in Tracking + % Skill in Detect hidden vs % Hiding + % Stealth.

There is absolutely no reason why Magery with all its benefits should be made more powerful.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

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<blockquote><hr>

If the forumla for revealing someone was such:

% detect hidden + % magery versus % hiding + % stealth


for revealing with the magery spell reveal...

all would be good.

[/ QUOTE ]
That would make Reveal which is one spell in 63 much too overpowered. Magery already allows healing, curing, offensive spells, defensive spells, transport, invis etc. Even without Detect Hidden your formula would allow a GM Mage to reveal a player with GM Hiding and GM Stealth 50% of the time. It is nonsense to expect 200 skill points to be nullified by 1/63 of a skill 50% of the time.

I suggest the formula for Reveal to work be:

% Skill in Magery / 63 + % Skill in Tracking + % Skill in Detect hidden vs % Hiding + % Stealth.

There is absolutely no reason why Magery with all its benefits should be made more powerful.

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since when did 1 skill out of 64 represent an entire skill set that I have to train to 90.1 (minimum) just to CAST the "reveal" spell effectively...

and even then I still have to devote JUST AS MANY skill points in detect AND magery as the stealther to effectively use the spell... if I don't have just as many skill points devoted then I do not have a 100% chance to reveal.

How is that not fair?

And how does what you said make any sense?

Nope sorry... but, my suggestion is spot on.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

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<blockquote><hr>

99% of the time when you guys are stealthing you are in animal form...

So I have detect and what have I noticed.... that as soon as I detect you guys there is no getting u on target because u just smoke bomb and I have to wait 10 seconds before I can detect again...

where is the balance in this?

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There is a 10 second timer on the smoke bomb as well, try again...?

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There is no delay from when you use the hiding skill to when you are able to stealth...

no soup for you.


and when someone is stealthing and I reveal them and they hide instantly and stealth away while I wait the 10 seconds just to reveal them again... how is that balanced?

 

[Guest]

It's not but they dont care lol there going to ban up against this because they all run stealth lost cause

We can only hope the Dev's notice how many people are using stealth, Ninja, hide with the combo of soke bombs etc. and how messed up detect is...

we can only hope!

 

[Guest]

Stealthers are easy to kill. Once you find them. Passive detect is available to you. Just pick a shard. Not Siege. *smiles*

 

[UberJake]

I agree passive detect isnt the way to go but surely you wouldn't be against a revert to the way stealth used to work as in a 6 second delay betwen hiding and being able to stealth and having to count you stealthed steps and manually re-stealthing? What is you expert, informed opinion on this?

 

[Guest]

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I agree passive detect isnt the way to go but surely you wouldn't be against a revert to the way stealth used to work as in a 6 second delay betwen hiding and being able to stealth and having to count you stealthed steps and manually re-stealthing?

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It should be this way now... why they canged it I have no idea maybe at the time it was ok but with the combination of Smoke Bombs and Ninja its way over powered...

 

[Guest]

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Stealthers are easy to kill. Once you find them. Passive detect is available to you. Just pick a shard. Not Siege. *smiles*

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Sorry Kelmo, think you need to relax

Everyone do have right to an opinion. No need to tell Siege players to go to Trammel shards, some of us had been here very long time, from long before we got the ninja skill and some others skills not balanced for Siege.

A stealther should walk, not run
He should be careful not to push anyone or be pushed. It should unhide him.

The points you put in hiding/stealth is useful for you against all templayes, you choose to put slot points in defense, that's fine.

I sure should not need to use same counts of points for Tracking/detect hiding. That would be points I can't use against other templates and I would weak against non stealthers, when I will have to few points left for defense and power.

Instead of telling Siege players they are silly and they should go to Trammel. Try to debat in a mature way.

 

[Guest]

Srsly Kelmo Telling people to go to another shard and there opinions don't matter... way to build the Community...

 

[Ru Atl]

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99% of the time when you guys are stealthing you are in animal form...

So I have detect and what have I noticed.... that as soon as I detect you guys there is no getting u on target because u just smoke bomb and I have to wait 10 seconds before I can detect again...

where is the balance in this?

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i don't have much of a problem with this, but then again i spend quite a bit of time playing on my revealer.

i'm just glad you guys have timers now, sucked being a stealther when someone was around that could spam detect hidden.

 

[Ru Atl]

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It's not but they dont care lol there going to ban up against this because they all run stealth lost cause

We can only hope the Dev's notice how many people are using stealth, Ninja, hide with the combo of soke bombs etc. and how messed up detect is...

we can only hope!

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i honestly don't see a problem with DH. if you wanna talk about something messed up, lets talk about someone with .1-20.0 tracking being able to track stealthers.

 

[Guest]

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Srsly Kelmo Telling people to go to another shard and there opinions don't matter... way to build the Community...

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yea like you've been pleasent this entire thread. forget what you typed? go read it again.

 

[Guest]

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Srsly Kelmo Telling people to go to another shard and there opinions don't matter... way to build the Community...

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yea like you've been pleasent this entire thread. forget what you typed? go read it again.

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Why dont you just quote it for me since it was so bad... ?

 

[Guest]

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i honestly don't see a problem with DH. if you wanna talk about something messed up, lets talk about someone with .1-20.0 tracking being able to track stealthers.

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You need alot more than that to track players with hiding and stealth, it was changed long ago. I guess they can track your pet and that can be the reason they can track you.

I miss being able to track with 20.1

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

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Stealthers are easy to kill. Once you find them. Passive detect is available to you. Just pick a shard. Not Siege. *smiles*

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Sorry Kelmo, think you need to relax

Everyone do have right to an opinion. No need to tell Siege players to go to Trammel shards

Instead of telling Siege players they are silly and they should go to Trammel. Try to debat in a mature way.

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See the hissy-fit he throws when he doesn't get his way?

Like I didn't call it...

 

[Guest]

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Srsly Kelmo Telling people to go to another shard and there opinions don't matter... way to build the Community...

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yea like you've been pleasent this entire thread. forget what you typed? go read it again.

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Still waiting GG

 

[imported_Traveller]

The solution to most stealth problem is the same on prodo shards and siege. A very strong passive detect effect for passive stealth and no passive detection for ACTIVE stealthing.

This means that you don't need to actually count steps when you are traversing kilometers of deserted space, which makes stealthing less boring. But at the same time when you are engaged against players you had better start counting steps, and fast.