Custom Content Re-Sell Debate...

[Guest]

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There is nothing "being a good seller" about taking someone else's work, putting a markup on it, and selling it for a higher price than the original creator.

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What I meant by that is if they weren't good at selling things, or didn't put the effort into getting to a top store (which I'm sure you will argue doesn't require effort, but rather cheating, but that is an entirely different thread), then nobody would be buying the marked up items.

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It's been proven repeatedly that getting a top store in these times doesn't require a whole lot of effort. Not to say that *nobody* who has a top store HAS put in the effort, but the person who is doing this to nodgree, as proven by the circumstances presented in his original post, has not put in the effort, so that argument does not hold water here...but you already knew that because you said so yourself, but it is part of this discussion since it is the case here.

Regardless, even if they had put work into it, it still doesnt' mean that is why people are buying the marked up items, more likely it is as nodgree also said, that people just simply click on the top 1 or 2 houses and buy the item for whatever its marked at, not caring if anybody else has it cheaper because they can't be bothered to click on more than the top 10. If things were fair and equal, I'm fairly confident that his store would be in the top 20 at least, if not in the top 10, that is if the cheaters were eliminated.

I am just astounded that so many people are calling this a legal, ethical and or 'good business' practice, but yet find other things that are so closely related that its unbelievable, repugnant. Is it that you just don't *see* how the things are related, or what?

As I stated before, if nothing else it's a side of the times RL that is carrying over into SL, which is sad since so many people say they don't want SL to so closely resemble SL.

 

[Guest]

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This is absolutely correct - in your imagination. But it is not a tenet of law.

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Well, I believe you are incorrect, and my stance is backed up by the policies and disclaimers I have seen on websites of people who create unique work such as this, and cease and decist notices that I have seen when people violate such user agreements and the creator has cared enough to pursue it. Look around on the net, and you too will see some of the same kinds of statements that I am talking about, along with the exact verbage of the laws that back up the claims and cause the complaints filed to be won. I suppose there will be those here that won't believe it though until such complaints are filed within the game. *shrugs* That's fine, it just goes to reinforce nodgree's statement with regards to ethics.

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A 'user agreement' is not a sale. There is no 'verbage' legal or otherwise, to give control over a sold item to the creator.

You can not call people unethical just because they are smarter businessperson, with a better understanding of market value, than the original creator has. There is a reason so many artists have agents, managers and gallerys to represent their work. They are usually better artists than businesspersons.

Once again, I will say, you are totally misunderstanding the use and meaning of the disclaimers you are quoting. They do not apply to purchased items. If I buy a poster off of the net, there is no disclaimer that can tell me what to do with *my* poster. The statements are there, because if an artist allows the free use (download) of their image without the disclaimer, they lose the copyright to that image and it becomes public domain. It is a legal protection for the artist....not a condition of sale.

You are just dead wrong Carrie.

 

[Guest]

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*TTL*

How about auctions that we should have one day in the future. There are some articles about it on the wiki. Auctions.

Would it be better if creators could sell their items to stores in bulk? Would those that are against this practice today embrace it in an auction setting instead?

Another thought is why not just make a deal with some of these stores, sell to them directly as long as they post a sign advertising you as the creator with your items. Perhaps they would be willing to determine a selling price with your input. They are willing to put time in at a store but not to create, you are willing to create but not being at the top of the list you have a more difficult selling position. This could be a win-win situation. You get to create more, they get to sell more, everyone makes money and customers get what they want. Personally I think it would be best to try to make a good working relationship with several stores. Perhaps offer different stock to some stores for promos or offer limited edition items.

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If they did this, then they'd be acting more as a wholesale vendor, so no, in this scenario I personally would not have a problem with it, since as I pointed out in another post, the goal of a wholesale vendor is to sell to small businessmen *knowing* that they are going to turn around and resell those items for a marked up price. That would totally eliminate the breech of contract aspect, although I'm not sure why it would be necessary to do it in auction style, though I've not read the Wiki page you link to yet. I'd think a wholesale vendor would just set his wholesale prices the same way he would retail prices, that is to say if you are a proven store owner (in RL this would be done by a tax ID number but in game it would just simply be being the roomie or owner of a store) and you buy more than 'x' number of items, then you get them for this reduced price. At least that has been how it has been in any RL wholesale transaction I have been in.

There again, if the creator of the object doesn't give a hill of beans whether or not someone resells their work for a profit, then they as the owner of that pattern (which would in this case be the original design process of the object) have the perrogative to allow people to do that, just as people who do care have the perrogative to disallow it. As long as that right is equally extended to both sides of the coin, then phooey on the rest of the semantics. But if it's left up to the 'honor system' that people will not do it if told not to unless forced not to, then examples like this one, and others that aren't listed here, is what we get, which is no surprise since scammers and cheaters have been around since the earliest days of TSO, even before the game went live I think, so I think something like this should have been spelled out clearly in black and white, with referrences to the pertinent laws to back up the game's stance, in the ToS/UA so nobody would have any doubt because the days of self-control and ethics have been going downhill steadily since Adam and Eve, with not alot of signs of slowing

 

[Guest]

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It seems to me that, according to you, anyone who uses their wits, strategy, determination, perseverence, etc. is somehow cheating/dishonest.

[/ QUOTE ]Rubbish. Where's any skill in taking someone else's stuff and slapping a price increase on it? None at all.

Or are you trying to say that people who don't do that only have themselves to blame for not sinking as low as everyone else... like afk cheaters, botters, people that fill their properties with hidden sims to artificially inflate their visitor hours, etc etc etc?

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Sure, aj - that's what I'm saying - that honest, creative players are just stoopid for not going the cheating route. [/sarcasm]
No - what I am saying is that your righteous indignation varies with the blowing of the wind.

 

[Guest]

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Custom content should be set to "no resale" unless the original creator specifically permits it - perhaps by a rudimentary tickbox permissions system?

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Excellent idea, maybe there's some way that I (or Nikki and I, if she would help since I'm a Wiki noob? LOL) could make a Wiki page on this idea, linking back to this post giving credit to you as the one that thought of it. This is something that should have been in the original design for CC, but I'm not sure that EA was aware of the laws regarding virtual property, or that players would have such strong feelings on both sides of the issue. Those players that don't care could just set the permissions to indicate such, those that do ould also, just as we have roomie building permissions....some owners give roomies building rights straight off, others wait for varying lengths of time, others still don't give them at all unless its a sim that they've known for a significant amount of time. A system like you suggest would be fair to all, with nobody losing, especially since 'sell back' has been disabled in the game anyway, so other items can't be sold back to EA for simoleans......this is just one more things players won't be able to sell or resell for simoleans if the creator doesn't want them to.

 

[nodgree]

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OK go to the #2 store and offer them a deal and explain why. Make sure the merchandise you offer them is unique and have them price it slightly lower then the other store.

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I think I'm just going to chose my descriptions wisely. That way, if a store chooses to resell, they will only be making themselves look bad

I do like the auction idea. I'd actually love to work with a store or 2 if we could negotiate something beneficial to both parties

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So basically you are saying that you have no problem with other stores selling your items or with selling them for what the market will bear, at an auction.....

.....you were just mad that someone else was smart enough to charge more money than you did....and wouldn't give you a cut?

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I have no problem with my stuff being re-sold with my permission. I even posted a few posts back that I had approached one of the stores selling my stuff and made them an offer to benefit us both, but they chose not to take it and still kept selling my stuff. At an auction, I'd be able to controll how many and ant what price I wanted my objects to start at. Not just have them show up and buy everything that I had on my lot.

 

[Guest]

I can understand why morally you would have a problem with your stuff being redistributed for profit. However, this sort of stuff happens all the time.

Ebay is built off of this type of business.

I bought this, I don't want it any more and I'm selling it here.

I bought a whole bunch of these for a good price, now I'm going to sell them and make a profit.

 

[Guest]

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This is absolutely correct - in your imagination. But it is not a tenet of law.

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Well, I believe you are incorrect, and my stance is backed up by the policies and disclaimers I have seen on websites of people who create unique work such as this, and cease and decist notices that I have seen when people violate such user agreements and the creator has cared enough to pursue it. Look around on the net, and you too will see some of the same kinds of statements that I am talking about, along with the exact verbage of the laws that back up the claims and cause the complaints filed to be won. I suppose there will be those here that won't believe it though until such complaints are filed within the game. *shrugs* That's fine, it just goes to reinforce nodgree's statement with regards to ethics.

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A 'user agreement' is not a sale. There is no 'verbage' legal or otherwise, to give control over a sold item to the creator.

You can not call people unethical just because they are smarter businessperson, with a better understanding of market value, than the original creator has. There is a reason so many artists have agents, managers and gallerys to represent their work. They are usually better artists than businesspersons.

Once again, I will say, you are totally misunderstanding the use and meaning of the disclaimers you are quoting. They do not apply to purchased items. If I buy a poster off of the net, there is no disclaimer that can tell me what to do with *my* poster. The statements are there, because if an artist allows the free use (download) of their image without the disclaimer, they lose the copyright to that image and it becomes public domain. It is a legal protection for the artist....not a condition of sale.

You are just dead wrong Carrie.

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We are just going to have to agree to disagree, because there's no way you can know how I *do* know that what I am saying is correct, but the way you interpret them is a common interpretation and is what causes the biggest amount of the disputes that happen when a creator goes after someone who has ripped off their work, a large portion of which come out in favor of the creator. The ethics comment comes down to a 'you say tomayto, I say tomahto' thing, and I am looking at it from a different vantage point than perhaps you are, which is what might cause the discrepancy there. No big deal, as is said before, if everybody agreed with everybody on boards like this, things would become boring quick. I'm going to leave it here though, as far as that debate goes, because it's obvious that continuing to rebut back and forth would just cause headaches from mutually banging our heads on walls

 

[imported_Phoenix_Rising]

Honestly, I didn't read this thread. If it wasn't suggested already, I think when one uploads files, they should be given the opportunity to be mod/transferable/copyable just like SL.

$.02

 

[Guest]

I must admit you're giving me a good chuckle seeing *you* preach about ethics.

I could add a disclaimer to all my eBay auctions that tells people they can't resell my widget. It wouldn't mean a hill of beans to the buyer since there is no law stopping them from reselling. I stand by what I said before, a case of sellers remorse. So enough with all the scammers and cheaters bs, no rules being broken here.

 

[nodgree]

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I must admit you're giving me a good chuckle seeing *you* preach about ethics.

I could add a disclaimer to all my eBay auctions that tells people they can't resell my widget. It wouldn't mean a hill of beans to the buyer since there is no law stopping them from reselling. I stand by what I said before, a case of sellers remorse. So enough with all the scammers and cheaters bs, no rules being broken here.

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Get over this sellers remorse crap ok? There hasnt been anything in this thread that has angered me untill you showed up and started with this sellers remorse stuff. It her nothing to do with this.

 

[Guest]

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We are just going to have to agree to disagree, because there's no way you can know how I *do* know that what I am saying is correct, but the way you interpret them is a common interpretation and is what causes the biggest amount of the disputes that happen when a creator goes after someone who has ripped off their work, a large portion of which come out in favor of the creator

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The original creator's name is still on the custom content, reselling is not "ripping off their work". Somebody taking the design and uploading it as their own is ripping off someone's work. Reselling it is not.

I like AJ's suggestion of being able to set custom content to no resale. Uploaders should have the option of allowing people to sell on the items, or making it a one-time sale only. This would of course also need to make the item non-tradeable.

Polly

 

[Guest]

I think it'd be a lot easier and there would be a lot less debate if EA just changed the ToS to state that they are the sole owners of all uploaded CC, whilst the uploader is given the sole right to "reorder" from EA.

They have to update the ToS to reflect the current "AFK" situation, so they might as well include this all at the same time.

 

[Guest]

so if you cant re-sell then what are you going to do when you dont want it anymore? just throw it away? what a waste of money i dont like this

 

[Guest]

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OK go to the #2 store and offer them a deal and explain why. Make sure the merchandise you offer them is unique and have them price it slightly lower then the other store.

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I think I'm just going to chose my descriptions wisely. That way, if a store chooses to resell, they will only be making themselves look bad

I do like the auction idea. I'd actually love to work with a store or 2 if we could negotiate something beneficial to both parties

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So basically you are saying that you have no problem with other stores selling your items or with selling them for what the market will bear, at an auction.....

.....you were just mad that someone else was smart enough to charge more money than you did....and wouldn't give you a cut?

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I have no problem with my stuff being re-sold with my permission. I even posted a few posts back that I had approached one of the stores selling my stuff and made them an offer to benefit us both, but they chose not to take it and still kept selling my stuff. At an auction, I'd be able to controll how many and ant what price I wanted my objects to start at. Not just have them show up and buy everything that I had on my lot.

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Bingo. The issue isn't the 'for a profit' part that people seem to want to hang you for, its the 'WITHOUT PERMISSION' part. This kind of thing happens all the time.......

Kinda OT but sorta along the same lines: There was a news article I'd heard about that Ellen DeGeneres had adopted an animal from a shelter. Part of that shelter's contract was that if you adopted an animal from them, you agreed not to give away or sell the animal to anyone else, if you did not want it anymore, you HAD to bring it back to the shelter. When E.D. brought the animal home, it did not get along with one of her existing animals, so she decided it had to go. She had a staff member that had two preteen kids, 10 and 12 I believe, and they'd been wanting an animal and had played with this one so she decided to give this animal away to the lady and her two children. The shelter somehow, dunno how, found out about this and was LIVID, so much so that they actually went and removed the animal from the home, after it had been there for weeks and the children had already bonded with it. Why? Two reasons.....one, because that clause was in their policies, and two because they categorically would NOT adopt animals out to families that had children under 14 years of age.

Now, is it stupid that the shelter has this policy and went to this degree to enforce it? Absolutely, without a doubt.....BUT they were able to do it because it was stated in the agreement when the animal was adopted out, so no matter how stupid it was, it was enforceable. I don't agree with the policy, and I hope they remove it from their future adoption agreements forever, but nor do I agree with E.D. signing a document saying that she agreed to the terms, walking out with the animal, and then violating the terms. Two wrongs do not make a right. Same goes here. You might think its idiotic, and selfish, and egotistical yada yada yada for someone to be that possessive over an object, but if you buy an object with that kind of stipulation on it, KNOWING that that stipulation is there, then you are honor and legally bound to go along with the terms of that agreement or you should buy your objects somewhere else, just as E.D. could have adopted from somewhere else if she found that policy to be as assinine as I do. Maybe she wouldnt' have found the exact type animal she got, and maybe you won't find the exact cc you want elsewhere, but if you want what someone else has got or made bad enough, then you will follow whatever stipualations they put on it, or you shouldn't buy it. That's the bottom line.

 

[nodgree]

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so if you cant re-sell then what are you going to do when you dont want it anymore? just throw it away? what a waste of money i dont like this

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Another one that didnt bother to read the whole thread, let alone my main post.... I said and I quote, I have no issues with an individual selling the item if he or she has no use for it anymore..... Its just the STORES that are buying up 90% of my content to re-sell them for thier profit...ok? Thanks...

 

[Guest]

no thats fine, but what if i want to sell it to a store ? i dont want to run around trying to sell it to random people. it only makes sense that stores buy items off you if you dont want them anymore...but if i sell it to someone that didnt create it and they are not alowd to sell it, then they wont buy it from me, see? it just doesnt make sense to try and enforce this.

 

[Guest]

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so if you cant re-sell then what are you going to do when you dont want it anymore? just throw it away? what a waste of money i dont like this

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Another one that didnt bother to read the whole thread, let alone my main post.... I said and I quote, I have no issues with an individual selling the item if he or she has no use for it anymore..... Its just the STORES that are buying up 90% of my content to re-sell them for thier profit...ok? Thanks...

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I don't think Beatty's post indicates he didn't read the whole thread, I think he's expressing his concern if people do not allow reselling on their product for whatever reason, effecting him reselling something when he no longer wants it.

 

[nodgree]

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no thats fine, but what if i want to see it to a store ? i dont want to run around trying to sell it to random people. it only makes sense that stores buy items off you if you dont want them anymore...but if i sell it to someone that didnt create it and they are not alowd to sell it, then they wont buy it from me, see? it just doesnt make sense to try and enforce this.

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Again, thats perfectly fine. Because the person that is selling DID NOT walk into a CC lot and precede to buy up everything for the sole purpose of re-selling it at a higher rate.

Sorry if I snapped on ya. It wasnt intentional

 

[Guest]

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...after someone who has ripped off their work...

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You are *not* 'ripping off' a chair you have bought, by reselling it. It is not a matter of agree/disagree....it is a matter of both law and logic. The fact that you even used the phrase "ripped off their work" proves that you are not understanding what is being discussed here.

We are not talking about using someone's image in alternative products....we are not talking about cloning the work....we are not talking about claiming ownership of the image...we are not talking about buying/aquiring a license for use.

We *are* talking about the buying of a specific product (a chair, vase or picture). There is no law in the land that can keep you from selling a chair you legally purchased....for any price you chose to ask for it. There is no grey area here. It is not a matter of perspective. It is plain fact.

The only way a cc creator can control their product is to *not* sell it. Or to sell only a license for use....something that is not possible in this game.

And as fun as it is to debate 'ownership', I think all cc creators need to go back and read the user agreement we all signed, giving full rights to all of our creations and uploads, to EA Games. It isn't our intellectual property once we upload it into the game...it is EA's.

 

[Guest]

no worries. but how would that be enforced? someone could buy it from you and then trade it to a store to sell it if it is not allowed to directly sell it after buying it. does that make sense? there is a greater loss here than a gain, IMO

 

[Guest]

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...after someone who has ripped off their work...

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You are *not* 'ripping off' a chair you have bought, by reselling it. It is not a matter of agree/disagree....it is a matter of both law and logic. The fact that you even used the phrase "ripped off their work" proves that you are not understanding what is being discussed here.

We are not talking about using someone's image in alternative products....we are not talking about cloning the work....we are not talking about claiming ownership of the image...we are not talking about buying/aquiring a license for use.

We *are* talking about the buying of a specific product (a chair, vase or picture). There is no law in the land that can keep you from selling a chair you legally purchased....for any price you chose to ask for it. There is no grey area here. It is not a matter of perspective. It is plain fact.

The only way a cc creator can control their product is to *not* sell it. Or to sell only a license for use....something that is not possible in this game.

And as fun as it is to debate 'ownership', I think all cc creators need to go back and read the user agreement we all signed, giving full rights to all of our creations and uploads, to EA Games. It isn't our intellectual property once we upload it into the game...it is EA's.

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x.
Gilly is a 100% correct.

 

[nodgree]

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no worries. but how would that be enforced? someone could buy it from you and then trade it to a store to sell it if it is not allowed to directly sell it after buying it. does that make sense? there is a greater loss here than a gain, IMO

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Honestly, I dont think there is a way to control it. Like I said, I just put this up for debate to get everyones views out

I have my own ways of starting to control my cc so I'm really not worried anymore.

 

[Guest]

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I think it'd be a lot easier and there would be a lot less debate if EA just changed the ToS to state that they are the sole owners of all uploaded CC, whilst the uploader is given the sole right to "reorder" from EA.

They have to update the ToS to reflect the current "AFK" situation, so they might as well include this all at the same time.

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They do have that, as far as copyright, but this isn't a copyright issue, its a resell-for-profit issue. I'm wondering if those who don't understand the difference have ever been involved with the small business or wholesale market for RL original 'handmade' (or electronically handmade) goods. Nobody here is trying to get a copyright or patent on their custom content, they are just trying to set the venue in which they can be displayed and/or distributed, or for what purpose. I'm not understanding why some people are against having MORE choices in the game, as would be with having the OPTION to set your stuff as non-resell. If you don't want to give your business to people who have no re-sell policies, nobody is saying you have to. There's plenty of people who don't care and wouldn't have that policy if given the option to have an ironclad way to enforce it, so you'd just send your business their way. The whole point of this thread is that there are players who DO want to have the option to enforce that policy, and don't want to be treated like they are a boil on the nose of sim society because they feel a sense of proprietorship over things that they made.

As a person who does make handmade stuff, RL and electronic, I have a grasp of how much time is involved with it, and I'd be more than a little cheesed off if somebody who was not a wholesale client redistributed anything I gave them or sold them, especially if they called me some of the things that you guys have incinuated nodgree and those who agree with him are if I asked them about it. I'm betting that alot of you that are saying you don't mind really don't have an idea of how much time goes in to any given project, and the fact that it is impossible for a craftsman/woman to be recompensated for his or her *time* in the first place, even IF the person doesn't redistribute it....but that's not why its done. We do it because we like to do it, and all that is being asked is not to get taken advantage of in the process

 

[Guest]

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We are just going to have to agree to disagree, because there's no way you can know how I *do* know that what I am saying is correct, but the way you interpret them is a common interpretation and is what causes the biggest amount of the disputes that happen when a creator goes after someone who has ripped off their work, a large portion of which come out in favor of the creator

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The original creator's name is still on the custom content, reselling is not "ripping off their work". Somebody taking the design and uploading it as their own is ripping off someone's work. Reselling it is not.

<u>I like AJ's suggestion of being able to set custom content to no resale. Uploaders should have the option of allowing people to sell on the items, or making it a one-time sale only. This would of course also need to make the item non-tradeable.</u>

Polly

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Absolutely not.
This is exactly the same as the creator retaining control of the item even after selling it. This is what we have been discussing in this thread all this time.
Once again, we are NOT talking about 'intellectual property'. Just the individual item.
Not the recipe for Coca-Cola - just an individual bottle.

 

[Guest]

So your only issue is that you want to discriminate against certain buyers.......competitors specifically.

 

[Guest]

I understand completely what you are trying to say, I'm just saying I don't agree with it nor do I believe that the laws that you have mentioned but failed to produce apply to the resell of physical property, and judging from the responses I've seen, I'm not the only one who questions this.

 

[Guest]

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As a person who does make handmade stuff, RL and electronic, I have a grasp of how much time is involved with it, and I'd be more than a little cheesed off if somebody who was not a wholesale client redistributed anything I gave them or sold them, especially if they called me some of the things that you guys have incinuated nodgree and those who agree with him are if I asked them about it. I'm betting that alot of you that are saying you don't mind really don't have an idea of how much time goes in to any given project, and the fact that it is impossible for a craftsman/woman to be recompensated for his or her *time* in the first place, even IF the person doesn't redistribute it....but that's not why its done. We do it because we like to do it, and all that is being asked is not to get taken advantage of in the process

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If the actual "product" ever did ship and the end user wanted to resell it for whatever reason.... that would be up to them.

There are no laws whatsoever governing reselling merchandise that you paid for.

I don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about this concept.

if somebody took the name and ingredients used in your "product" and tried to pass it off and sell it... then you'd have a legal issue.

I mean honestly... I find this concept really easy to grasp.

You don't have to be Ally Mcbeal.

 

[nodgree]

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So your only issue is that you want to discriminate against certain buyers.......competitors specifically.

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If you're refering to me, you're missing the point yet again. I was only refering to those stores that buy and resell (even tho I have a warning not to) with out so much as just asking if I mind. If they asked, I'd be more than happy to work out a deal to suit us both. I'm not worried about competitors. I have no reason to care if I have a top store or not.

 

[Guest]

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no thats fine, but what if i want to sell it to a store ? i dont want to run around trying to sell it to random people. it only makes sense that stores buy items off you if you dont want them anymore...but if i sell it to someone that didnt create it and they are not alowd to sell it, then they wont buy it from me, see? it just doesnt make sense to try and enforce this.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you sold it to a store, you'd sell it to them so that they can display it in their store, not so they can sell it.....that would be fine the way I understand nodgree's jist. If it was a painting, then the owner could use it as deco, if its a table or chair then they could put it in their greening area, and any customers that come in and see the cc would go 'hmm, wonder who made this?' and click on it and see that it was nodgree that made it, and then contact him to see if he'd sell them one, which might translate as a sale. It's only if you sold it to that store for the store to turn around and sell it for a profit, that I believe nodgree would take offense to it. It's not the act of reselling he objects to, its the purpose of reselling it, for reprofit, whether it's your reprofit or the stores reprofit.

If I was the creator of that piece, and you did not want the object anymore, you could come to me and if you knew who you were going to sell it to, and I could talk to that owner and be assured that they were not going to resell it for profit, then I might even be inclined to reset the permissions so that you could resell it to that store, but only after receiving something in writing from the store owner stating that they agreed not to resell it, to cover myself so that the same policy applied even though I had lifted it for you, but only because of the verbal agreement I made with him. Verbal agreements don't mean much these days, sadly, so if I could not get a written statement from him, then I would not be able to lift the permissions, however I might be willing to buy it back from you. assuming that reselling it to the creator would supercede the permissions, which it probably would, for a portion of what you paid for it at least, based on the wear on the object (do CC objects wear? I haven't paid attention to that in houses come to think of it) or how much use you'd gotten out of it just like any other used object in RL.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, because there's no way you can know how I *do* know that what I am saying is correct, but the way you interpret them is a common interpretation and is what causes the biggest amount of the disputes that happen when a creator goes after someone who has ripped off their work, a large portion of which come out in favor of the creator

[/ QUOTE ]

The original creator's name is still on the custom content, reselling is not "ripping off their work". Somebody taking the design and uploading it as their own is ripping off someone's work. Reselling it is not.

<u>I like AJ's suggestion of being able to set custom content to no resale. Uploaders should have the option of allowing people to sell on the items, or making it a one-time sale only. This would of course also need to make the item non-tradeable.</u>

Polly

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not.
This is exactly the same as the creator retaining control of the item even after selling it. This is what we have been discussing in this thread all this time.
Once again, we are NOT talking about 'intellectual property'. Just the individual item.
Not the recipe for Coca-Cola - just an individual bottle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plain as day that you have not dealt with creating CC very much. When you purchase an item like this, you are essentially buying the 'pattern'. You can see how it was made, and therefore replicate it. That is what makes it different from an individual object. If you buy a bottle of Coca-Cola, then unless you are a chemist you're not gonna be able to figure out the recipe very easily, if at all, or how to make the bottle. Same for a bottle of perfume. That is not true of hand crafted objects, to varying degrees. Most anybody that knows anything about the materials can figure out how it was made, if not to the letter then pretty close.....just like with graphics. Slap the graphic in a graphics program and it becomes fairly easy to discern how things were put together to come up with the finished graphic or product, though with graphics if the entire thing has been 'melded' (can't think of the word here) correctly then you cannot separate the different layers, but you can still fiddle with it until you figure out how its done.


But even so, that's not even what we're talking about....these people did not take nodgrees object into a program and redesign it, they sold his object with his name STILL ATTACHED to it, not even trying to cover up the fact that they were selling someone else's creation, thereby implying to the buyer that they did have that permission. That's why person C is not at fault, person B is. Person C probably thought person B and nodgree (person A) had come to an agreement and person B was acting as an outlet, sort of on 'consignment', just like nodgree said he tried to work out with the guy when all was said and done, and person B would not have it, why? Because it would eat into person B's profit, and 'nodgree is unreasonable for wanting a piece of the pie for something HE created alone without a single bit of help or input from person B', yet nobody sees a thing wrong with that, and not only do you not see anything wrong with it, you try to make nodgree out to be somebody on an ego trip because he wants to be compensated for somebody else profitting from his work. As I said earlier...plain to see who's been in the situation, and who hasn't.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

At an auction, I'd be able to controll how many and ant what price I wanted my objects to start at. Not just have them show up and buy everything that I had on my lot.


[/ QUOTE ]
But, that is what you do when you place the item on the lot and set the price.
You are saying that your item has xxx value and you have x number of them for sale. If someone comes in and buys one or all - they are adhering to your standards of sale. You are saying that it is ok for them to buy up to the maximum number of items at the set price. That is control.
If you want finer control, set out a smaller number at a time, or raise the price, or both.
The only other thing you could do would be to set up a rental/lease program. This would be a way to retain ownership. Of course you would have to charge much less, and I don't know how you could make it work IG.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

As a person who does make handmade stuff, RL and electronic, I have a grasp of how much time is involved with it, and I'd be more than a little cheesed off if somebody who was not a wholesale client redistributed anything I gave them or sold them, especially if they called me some of the things that you guys have incinuated nodgree and those who agree with him are if I asked them about it. I'm betting that alot of you that are saying you don't mind really don't have an idea of how much time goes in to any given project, and the fact that it is impossible for a craftsman/woman to be recompensated for his or her *time* in the first place, even IF the person doesn't redistribute it....but that's not why its done. We do it because we like to do it, and all that is being asked is not to get taken advantage of in the process

[/ QUOTE ]

<blockquote><hr>

If the actual "product" ever did ship and the end user wanted to resell it for whatever reason.... that would be up to them.

There are no laws whatsoever governing reselling merchandise that you paid for.

I don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about this concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because your understanding is incorrect.

<blockquote><hr>

if somebody took the name and ingredients used in your "product" and tried to pass it off and sell it... then you'd have a legal issue.

I mean honestly... I find this concept really easy to grasp.

You don't have to be Ally Mcbeal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that too would be wrong, except THAT right there would be getting into copyright infringement, which is an even bigger deal than 'simple' breech of contract. Those are two separate legal scenarios, both wrong, but for different reasons.

 

[nodgree]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

At an auction, I'd be able to controll how many and ant what price I wanted my objects to start at. Not just have them show up and buy everything that I had on my lot.


[/ QUOTE ]
But, that is what you do when you place the item on the lot and set the price.
You are saying that your item has xxx value and you have x number of them for sale. If someone comes in and buys one or all - they are adhering to your standards of sale. You are saying that it is ok for them to buy up to the maximum number of items at the set price. That is control.
If you want finer control, set out a smaller number at a time, or raise the price, or both.
The only other thing you could do would be to set up a rental/lease program. This would be a way to retain ownership. Of course you would have to charge much less, and I don't know how you could make it work IG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guess you've accomplished your goal to make me look like an idiot. I guess I can just stop debating this now since anything I say has made absolutely no sense.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So your only issue is that you want to discriminate against certain buyers.......competitors specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're refering to me, you're missing the point yet again. I was only refering to those stores that buy and resell (even tho I have a warning not to) with out so much as just asking if I mind. If they asked, I'd be more than happy to work out a deal to suit us both. I'm not worried about competitors. I have no reason to care if I have a top store or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I understand very well. You want to have a cut of any sales of your product....and you would prefer it if the game would enforce that.

I feel that it is up to you and any other cc creator, to arrange your product sales to achieve the ends you want. You need to sell your items by exclusive contract, and not by putting your items out for public sale on a store lot, then complaining that someone you do not approve of, bought them.

I would strenously object to having the developer's time focused on an issue, with such limited benefit to the game as a whole.

 

[nodgree]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So your only issue is that you want to discriminate against certain buyers.......competitors specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're refering to me, you're missing the point yet again. I was only refering to those stores that buy and resell (even tho I have a warning not to) with out so much as just asking if I mind. If they asked, I'd be more than happy to work out a deal to suit us both. I'm not worried about competitors. I have no reason to care if I have a top store or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I understand very well. You want to have a cut of any sales of your product....and you would prefer it if the game would enforce that.

I feel that it is up to you and any other cc creator, to arrange your product sales to achieve the ends you want. You need to sell your items by exclusive contract, and not by putting your items out for public sale on a store lot, then complaining that someone you do not approve of, bought them.

I would strenously object to having the developer's time focused on an issue, with such limited benefit to the game as a whole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where in gods name did I say I wanted a cut of any sales of my items?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

As a person who does make handmade stuff, RL and electronic, I have a grasp of how much time is involved with it, and I'd be more than a little cheesed off if somebody who was not a wholesale client redistributed anything I gave them or sold them, especially if they called me some of the things that you guys have incinuated nodgree and those who agree with him are if I asked them about it. I'm betting that alot of you that are saying you don't mind really don't have an idea of how much time goes in to any given project, and the fact that it is impossible for a craftsman/woman to be recompensated for his or her *time* in the first place, even IF the person doesn't redistribute it....but that's not why its done. We do it because we like to do it, and all that is being asked is not to get taken advantage of in the process

[/ QUOTE ]

<blockquote><hr>

If the actual "product" ever did ship and the end user wanted to resell it for whatever reason.... that would be up to them.

There are no laws whatsoever governing reselling merchandise that you paid for.

I don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about this concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because your understanding is incorrect.

<blockquote><hr>

if somebody took the name and ingredients used in your "product" and tried to pass it off and sell it... then you'd have a legal issue.

I mean honestly... I find this concept really easy to grasp.

You don't have to be Ally Mcbeal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that too would be wrong, except THAT right there would be getting into copyright infringement, which is an even bigger deal than 'simple' breech of contract. Those are two separate legal scenarios, both wrong, but for different reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I"m not incorrect.

once I buy something (providing that I take actual possession of purchased merchandise) Its mine to do what I want. I can sell it to my hearts content.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Where in gods name did I say I wanted a cut of any sales of my items?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure you ever said it directly but I can see where Gilly would assume that, as it is one of the few reasons somebody would care that others are reselling their work.

 

[nodgree]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Where in gods name did I say I wanted a cut of any sales of my items?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure you ever said it directly but I can see where Gilly would assume that, as it is one of the few reasons somebody would care that others are reselling their work.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure. can we lock this thread please?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Actually I"m not incorrect.

once I buy something (providing that I take actual possession of purchased merchandise) Its mine to do what I want. I can sell it to my hearts content.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my understanding of how the things work, at least until I can provided with a link or direct quote to the law that states otherwise, at which point I would reconsider my position.

 

[Guest]

if you dont want a cut of the sales then why does it matter how much someone sells your items for? they already gave you the money you asked for...

i could see where you were coming from if you wanted some of the profit they were making off your items, but if this is mainly about pride then its probably not worth it?
right?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Where in gods name did I say I wanted a cut of any sales of my items?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure you ever said it directly but I can see where Gilly would assume that, as it is one of the few reasons somebody would care that others are reselling their work.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure. can we lock this thread please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, because I really don't mean to. I'm just saying I could understand the point of view who does assume this, just as I can understand the point of view of somebody who has other reasonings.

No hard feelings, I hope.

 

[nodgree]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Where in gods name did I say I wanted a cut of any sales of my items?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure you ever said it directly but I can see where Gilly would assume that, as it is one of the few reasons somebody would care that others are reselling their work.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure. can we lock this thread please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, because I really don't mean to. I'm just saying I could understand the point of view who does assume this, just as I can understand the point of view of somebody who has other reasonings.

No hard feelings, I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant think of any other way to say what I mean. It is all about being an honest seller I guess. If I wanted to sell something that another person made, I would ask first, even if the objects we're readily available for me in thier store. I just think its kind of rude when you ask politely not to re-sell with out your permission and someone comes along and just ignores it all together. even after you try to work out a deal with them to supply them with the content.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Actually I"m not incorrect.

once I buy something (providing that I take actual possession of purchased merchandise) Its mine to do what I want. I can sell it to my hearts content.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my understanding of how the things work, at least until I can provided with a link or direct quote to the law that states otherwise, at which point I would reconsider my position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll say the same thing to you I'd say to anybody else. I took the time to educate myself on the issue when I needed to for my own benefit. The information is out there for anybody else who wishes to do the same, but I did not bookmark the sites since after I obtained the knowledge that is all I needed.....but if you are truly interested in becoming versed, it's easy enough to find through any means of searching information on state and federal laws regarding small businesses, wholesale vendors, 'intellectual property', electronic contracts and their enforcements, etc. etc. etc. You might even word things differently and come up with links that I did not look at, so I wish you luck in your search

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Actually I"m not incorrect.

once I buy something (providing that I take actual possession of purchased merchandise) Its mine to do what I want. I can sell it to my hearts content.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my understanding of how the things work, at least until I can provided with a link or direct quote to the law that states otherwise, at which point I would reconsider my position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll say the same thing to you I'd say to anybody else. I took the time to educate myself on the issue when I needed to for my own benefit. The information is out there for anybody else who wishes to do the same, but I did not bookmark the sites since after I obtained the knowledge that is all I needed.....but if you are truly interested in becoming versed, it's easy enough to find through any means of searching information on state and federal laws regarding small businesses, wholesale vendors, 'intellectual property', electronic contracts and their enforcements, etc. etc. etc. You might even word things differently and come up with links that I did not look at, so I wish you luck in your search

[/ QUOTE ]

If reselling things is illegal... why is ebay still operating?
Why aren't cops shutting down garage/yard sales?
Salvation Army.
Vintage shops.
???

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Where in gods name did I say I wanted a cut of any sales of my items?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure you ever said it directly but I can see where Gilly would assume that, as it is one of the few reasons somebody would care that others are reselling their work.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure. can we lock this thread please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, because I really don't mean to. I'm just saying I could understand the point of view who does assume this, just as I can understand the point of view of somebody who has other reasonings.

No hard feelings, I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant think of any other way to say what I mean. It is all about being an honest seller I guess. If I wanted to sell something that another person made, I would ask first, even if the objects we're readily available for me in thier store. I just think its kind of rude when you ask politely not to re-sell with out your permission and someone comes along and just ignores it all together. even after you try to work out a deal with them to supply them with the content.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite honestly, I do understand where you are coming from and sympathize with you. Please know that my arguments aren't aimed at you, even though you are the author of the thread, but rather in regards to the way the thread has escalated.

Like you've said, you have found a way to protect yourself from having your CC resold through means of listing the original price, your name, etc in the bio. As an honest seller, I'm sure that will help you a lot, so I wish you all the luck in the world with your ventures.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So your only issue is that you want to discriminate against certain buyers.......competitors specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're refering to me, you're missing the point yet again. I was only refering to those stores that buy and resell (even tho I have a warning not to) with out so much as just asking if I mind. If they asked, I'd be more than happy to work out a deal to suit us both. I'm not worried about competitors. I have no reason to care if I have a top store or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I understand very well. You want to have a cut of any sales of your product....and you would prefer it if the game would enforce that.

I feel that it is up to you and any other cc creator, to arrange your product sales to achieve the ends you want. You need to sell your items by exclusive contract, and not by putting your items out for public sale on a store lot, then complaining that someone you do not approve of, bought them.

I would strenously object to having the developer's time focused on an issue, with such limited benefit to the game as a whole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where in gods name did I say I wanted a cut of any sales of my items?

[/ QUOTE ]

Page 2:
<blockquote><hr>

I do like the auction idea. I'd actually love to work with a store or 2 if we could negotiate something beneficial to both parties

[/ QUOTE ]

<blockquote><hr>

I have no problem with my stuff being re-sold with my permission. I even posted a few posts back that I had approached one of the stores selling my stuff and made them an offer to benefit us both, but they chose not to take it and still kept selling my stuff. At an auction, I'd be able to controll how many and ant what price I wanted my objects to start at. Not just have them show up and buy everything that I had on my lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Actually I"m not incorrect.

once I buy something (providing that I take actual possession of purchased merchandise) Its mine to do what I want. I can sell it to my hearts content.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my understanding of how the things work, at least until I can provided with a link or direct quote to the law that states otherwise, at which point I would reconsider my position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll say the same thing to you I'd say to anybody else. I took the time to educate myself on the issue when I needed to for my own benefit. The information is out there for anybody else who wishes to do the same, but I did not bookmark the sites since after I obtained the knowledge that is all I needed.....but if you are truly interested in becoming versed, it's easy enough to find through any means of searching information on state and federal laws regarding small businesses, wholesale vendors, 'intellectual property', electronic contracts and their enforcements, etc. etc. etc. You might even word things differently and come up with links that I did not look at, so I wish you luck in your search

[/ QUOTE ]

If reselling things is illegal... why is ebay still operating?
Why aren't cops shutting down garage/yard sales?
Salvation Army.
Vintage shops.
???

[/ QUOTE ]

Jackiee, they are going to argue that it is because it is a single product that one person bought and no longer wants, in which case it is perfectly acceptable. However, with the ebay reference, there are a lot of power sellers who operate quite literally an ebay store and sell things that they find for cheap whether it is clearance or whatever. Same thing with some thrift stores. I've been into Salvation Armies that literally bought up Target's clearance rack and are now selling the BRAND NEW goods for a slight profit.

 

[nodgree]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So your only issue is that you want to discriminate against certain buyers.......competitors specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're refering to me, you're missing the point yet again. I was only refering to those stores that buy and resell (even tho I have a warning not to) with out so much as just asking if I mind. If they asked, I'd be more than happy to work out a deal to suit us both. I'm not worried about competitors. I have no reason to care if I have a top store or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I understand very well. You want to have a cut of any sales of your product....and you would prefer it if the game would enforce that.

I feel that it is up to you and any other cc creator, to arrange your product sales to achieve the ends you want. You need to sell your items by exclusive contract, and not by putting your items out for public sale on a store lot, then complaining that someone you do not approve of, bought them.

I would strenously object to having the developer's time focused on an issue, with such limited benefit to the game as a whole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where in gods name did I say I wanted a cut of any sales of my items?

[/ QUOTE ]

Page 2:
<blockquote><hr>

I do like the auction idea. I'd actually love to work with a store or 2 if we could negotiate something beneficial to both parties

[/ QUOTE ]

<blockquote><hr>

I have no problem with my stuff being re-sold with my permission. I even posted a few posts back that I had approached one of the stores selling my stuff and made them an offer to benefit us both, but they chose not to take it and still kept selling my stuff. At an auction, I'd be able to controll how many and ant what price I wanted my objects to start at. Not just have them show up and buy everything that I had on my lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I missing something?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Actually I"m not incorrect.

once I buy something (providing that I take actual possession of purchased merchandise) Its mine to do what I want. I can sell it to my hearts content.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my understanding of how the things work, at least until I can provided with a link or direct quote to the law that states otherwise, at which point I would reconsider my position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll say the same thing to you I'd say to anybody else. I took the time to educate myself on the issue when I needed to for my own benefit. The information is out there for anybody else who wishes to do the same, but I did not bookmark the sites since after I obtained the knowledge that is all I needed.....but if you are truly interested in becoming versed, it's easy enough to find through any means of searching information on state and federal laws regarding small businesses, wholesale vendors, 'intellectual property', electronic contracts and their enforcements, etc. etc. etc. You might even word things differently and come up with links that I did not look at, so I wish you luck in your search

[/ QUOTE ]

If reselling things is illegal... why is ebay still operating?
Why aren't cops shutting down garage/yard sales?
Salvation Army.
Vintage shops.
???

[/ QUOTE ]

Jackiee, they are going to argue that it is because it is a single product that one person bought and no longer wants, in which case it is perfectly acceptable. However, with the ebay reference, there are a lot of power sellers who operate quite literally an ebay store and sell things that they find for cheap whether it is clearance or whatever. Same thing with some thrift stores. I've been into Salvation Armies that literally bought up Target's clearance rack and are now selling the BRAND NEW goods for a slight profit.

[/ QUOTE ]
o.

I would like to add flea markets to my list.