Commission Vendors Bad For Market

[Keven2002]

You all sound like you are advocating for the IDOCers and websites... aka, trolls.... if I still have free speech and can speak my own thoughts. Like I said... the Scripters have 100's of accounts... in game and on Stratics both. Wish I could name a few of the more famous Luna people with 7+ Stratics accounts. Some would be amazed. Some would crawl back under their rock.....

Wait I'm confused... so are you saying commission vendors are bad for the market or are IDOC scripters really the root cause? Those are 2 totally separate things. Your argument is losing some validity it seems. Might want to get your story straight before raging on stratics about being "woke".

 

[Polaris75]

Wait I'm confused... so are you saying commission vendors are bad for the market or are IDOC scripters really the root cause? Those are 2 totally separate things. Your argument is losing some validity it seems. Might want to get your story straight before raging on stratics about being "woke".

Scripters are definitely the root of the cause, as is always the case. The owner of UOKing (cannot say his name, but I know his name and he owns the most castles on Atlantic)... buys most of the gold in the game from IDOCers. They sell it to him directly, he is the middle man. Because he gets his gold so cheap from a few of those guys, he is now buying up a ton of the cheaper items in the game to inflate the prices. (This is my assumption.)

Thus, prices are raising because of commission vendors (no consequences for them.) Then people are noticing the cheapest items on VS... and pricing their items accordingly. The price inflation is really due to the website owners. There are a few bad apples among the typical people who use multiboxing to vendor search all 32 shards at once. But most of the people doing that are the same ardent cheaters at EM events, and IDOCs both. Of course the website owner does it all. He automates everything, places runes around Luna on every shard, spamming, multiboxing vendor search (he searches every shard at once for the same item at the same times... snatching up cheap ones.)

The root cause is definitely the scripters. Commission vendors were just a god send for them.

 

[Fortis]

Well thanks to them for paying 100 or more accounts to keep this game alive...5 pourcent vendor has nothing to do with idocs btw....and yes if you want to talk about idocs if idocs stop now you will see price go sky high so becarefull what you are wishing padawan nostradamus

 

[Polaris75]

Well thanks to them for paying 100 or more accounts to keep this game alive...5 pourcent vendor has nothing to do with idocs btw....and yes if you want to talk about idocs if idocs stop now you will see price go sky high so becarefull what you are wishing padawan nostradamus

That's what should happen, IDOCs should stop. Then everyone's items will equalize in value and normal "trading" can resume.... instead of 30 people just having 50,000 items to sell only. Why should those 30 get everything? Answer me that....... more and more people quit every day because of those 30 people......... that's who you are advocating for. You must be one of those 30.

Most of us can actually play the game and make gold.........

 

[Keven2002]

@Polaris75 - Sorry I'm not buying what you're selling on this one. It seems like you are taking an actual issue (IDOCs/scripting) and trying to mash that round peg into the square hole of commission vendors. It seems pretty unrelated to me. I also don't understand why anyone cares that you know the guy that owns everything (you have made multiple claims some reason)... good for you but maybe you should report them to right the market and stop blaming commission vendors?

I've been trying to have you explain exactly how commission vendors have been bad for the market but you just keep going back to IDOC/scripters...and you haven't really made the connection on how someone scripting IDOCs benefits anymore from a commission vendor when they could do the same thing on a regular vendor (or just spam or use external site).

At this point you could also say that High Seas is bad for the market because the IDOC scripters control the high seas market and makes a killing off that...so lets end High Seas?

 

[TheGrimReefer]

I don't see how IDOC's have anything to do with the problems of Commission Vendors. Doing IDOC's doesn't make prices skyrocket, its people jacking up prices because of no fees trying to force higher prices. On Atlantic there are a few people just buying everything in order to raise prices and once people see an item for a price on VS they automatically start asking for that price.

Take Elemental Cameo for example. Before Commission Vendors they were around 100-125M. Now that their are no fees, these Cameos have jumped to 175M+. Demon have jumped to almost 300M. GET REAL PEOPLE. And don't say the people who gripe are ones who cant afford the items. Most of us veterans have more gold then we know what to do with.

As for Supply and Demand, thats BS. Yes this plays a small part in pricing but it doesn't explain the outlandish increase in prices on just about everything ingame. It is coming to the point where things are cheaper on the 3rd party sites then it is ingame. So what did the Commission Vendors actually accomplish?

 

[Ender]

The ship sailed on prices getting to ridiculous levels long before commission vendors were a thing. Thank the devs mismanaging the game allowing rampant scripting and duping, not introducing commission vendors. Every other MMO on the market has some form of global selling system that takes commission fees, not a daily charge.

 

[Innoxicated]

The guy who just bought a plat and its burning a hole in his pocket can give me a few hundred mil, I won't complain about that. I happily put esoteric things like skill jewels on a commission vendor, consumables go on a traditional vendor because they sell quick. I like having the option.

A handy skill jewel a returning player could use might be 2 mil, the pvp jewel no one actually *needs* but the rich guy might want is gonna be priced at 100+.

Hell in my guild we outfit the new/returning players well enough they wont need to use VS at all. When they're making enough money on their own, they can decide if the prices are right, and if its need or want.

Those who have said there are pros and cons are correct, and it's also certainly worth considering the pros and cons differ by shard.


If I see someone selling an item obviously overpriced I dont get frustrated, I feel bad. They clearly do not have an idea how to appraise their loot, and if someone equally clueless uses their price as a guide, that's a shame. Not because it will inflate the whole market, but because it simply will not sell. They'll figure it out.

 

[pevil]

I'm a returning player, not a new one, however I have no maxed out characters and the most money I've ever had is 2.5 mil so I might as well be new. I enjoy taming so every time I return I rent a stall in Magincia and try to sell my pets. This latest time of returning, hardly anything seems to be selling (and I price low). I've spent more on fees than I have gained from selling the pets.

I also have a house so this time around I've had a commission vendor. I've never bothered with a vendor before because of having to afford the fees. Now I can sell some stuff. Not much, I don't have much. I picked up a couple of 105 taming scrolls that were under priced at 50,000 each and put them back up on mine for 150,000. All the others on the shard were 200,000. They sold. I made a profit. I'm saving towards 6 mil for a 120 taming scroll so it helped. Right now all I have is some holiday tokens/cages/trees that I don't want and have guessed a price one (all less than half a mil) and a couple of house add ons which are only up for 2000 each. Not stuff that would be worth putting a normal vendor up for as they just don't seem to be selling (and again I've checked, I'm cheapest on the shard, they're clearly just not wanted) but eventually might sell and help me out towards my 120 taming.

I purchased some sovereigns when they were on sale in January. I had some spare after I'd bought what I wanted so I've bought a hitching post. Initially I was going to use it but my house is near a stable anyway so I'm attempting to sell it. I have no idea what they sell for; there are none up on vendor search and doing a general google/looking through some trade threads on here is giving me nothing for a guide line. There's a hitching rope up for 4.5 mil so as this is a brand new, untouched post with 30 charges I just randomly guessed and put it up for 25 mil. I'll leave it there for a month maybe and if it doesn't sell, drop it in price. Could I do that on a normal vendor? No, I'd probably be bankrupt in that time since I only have 1.2 mil gold right now.

The vendors only make it easier for greedy people to attempt to take advantage. Those who are poor, or do their homework, or just see a cheaper item in vendor search won't buy it and it won't help them. If they're the only person selling an item then sure, they might get away with it if it's really sought after or if someone has more gold than sense/patience, but they could have always done the same anyway if someone announced in chat they wanted to buy x item or posted a thread in the trade forums. Jump on them and say you've got it for a stupid amount and if that person pays it, so be it. There will always be people who try to be greedy, real life and UO and sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. Sell your stuff for what you think it's worth and don't buy things for more than you want to. If you can't afford it then learn to live without or save. I'm never going to afford a Ferrari in real life but that's not because garages are commisson vendors run by greedy people. It's because that item has been deemed to be worth way more than I will ever earn and even if I had that money I wouldn't buy one because to me, it's not worth it. If the same place tried to sell a mini for the same price then more fool them, it'll just sit there, no one will buy it and they'll look like idiots forever with no gain. It doesn't mean all other vendors will suddenly bump the price of a mini up to match it.

 

[Keven2002]

As for Supply and Demand, thats BS. Yes this plays a small part in pricing but it doesn't explain the outlandish increase in prices on just about everything ingame. It is coming to the point where things are cheaper on the 3rd party sites then it is in game. So what did the Commission Vendors actually accomplish?

I think we are kind of saying the same thing but in a different way.

When the cameo's first came out the demon cameo (on ATL) was being sold for 250m on average which was because it was new and there weren't a lot. Same thing with Hawkwind Robe/Minax sandals... I personally sold several robes for 80-100M and sandals for 60ish because I had several and there was a market. I took 6-8 months off and came back to the price falling out of the bottom for the robe and sandals and I've seen them for 30M for the sandals and 25-30 for the robe (Hawkwind has come back up a little bit due to the tabard so it's around 42m now). Simple enough since the time has passed where there is more supply and the demand has been met.

The outlandish pricing comes from the lack of supply. When there aren't a few options and people trying to undercut for a sale that's when the prices drastically increase because someone thinks they can corner the market. The decision is up to the public whether or not to pay 300M for that demon cameo. If they don't and the person really wants to move the item (or others come in at a lower price) that's what corrects the market. That being said, it's unrealistic to think you will find a demon cameo under let's say 100M anytime soon.

Commission vendors, as many have already made mention, have allowed people to test the market on things that don't have a real set market price like jewelry or random event rares. They can throw 100M on there to see if people will buy it and not pay a daily fee on an amount they may never get. They could do the exact same thing in Gen Chat; spam the same item(s) for some high amount so commission vendors aren't all of a sudden creating some secondary super inflated market. Those prices can be asked at any point. If someone is online and willing to pay that then it will be sold for whatever price is negotiated.

 

[Polaris75]

@Polaris75 - I also don't understand why anyone cares that you know the guy that owns everything (you have made multiple claims some reason)...

I have never met the guy... (Half of the IDOC houses are his, because he plays the house placement game and then lets them fall.... thereby half of the other IDOCers are wasting half their time.) You'll see items made by him at all of those IDOCs. He likes to be famous. I have been friends with the people in the "Crews" however.... and one of the biggest scripters ever that was not a part of them at all. Half of the smaller crew have no idea, but the leaders of the crews and the super scripters sell gold to him directly.

Maybe one day they will fix this game, as it is now, it's already too late. The game is down to about 4000-5000 active players as it is. We are lucky so many were wealthy and pay for their houses for the long term. But those houses are falling little by little surely enough. I for one will be glad when this game closes. Enjoy the new wealth!

 

[Uriah Heep]

. The game is down to about 4000-5000 active players as it is

LOL
You might have that many active accounts...but I doubt seriously that there are that many individual players. Most own from 3-10 accounts, so it's really hard to figure

 

[Polaris75]

LOL
You might have that many active accounts...but I doubt seriously that there are that many individual players. Most own from 3-10 accounts, so it's really hard to figure

That's just the number from mmopopulation.... it claims that many per day. Of course we know that about 2000 of those are EJ scripters looking for IDOCs, mining, lumberjacking, BOD'ing, putting runes/books advertising, and multiboxing to VS / spam across all the shards.

I mean they use scripts to make accounts and login for crying out loud.... they don't even do that much.

Sorry for rambling and badgering this all.... I'm just on a crusade against those guys and will do anything I can. It does spill over into all aspects of the game obviously.

 

[Stinky Pete]

Doing IDOC's doesn't make prices skyrocket, its people jacking up prices because of no fees trying to force higher prices.

I would argue that the people who are paying the jacked up prices are to blame, but if that is what they are paying, that is what it is worth. Economics 101.

 

[MalagAste]

I don't own a single cameo... don't care and I sure as hell wouldn't pay 100M for one let alone 300M... or more. IMO if I can't get it myself not worth having most of the time for that stuff... I used to enjoy taming and training up pets but since I ran out of scrolls for pets I really don't care to do that anymore either... and since I seriously do not care to PvP I don't much care to go to Fel to get scrolls... once upon a time, I would go when friends went and I'd enjoy the company doing spawns... and whenever we'd get raided I'd vanish. I'm fairly good at that. But since those friends have long since quit playing... really don't have any desire to go do spawns... certainly am not the sort to do them solo. In fact, don't much care to do much of anything in UO solo...

So since I don't care to solo things, don't like to play UO by myself and everything now seems to be geared to soloing the game I rarely even bother to log in. If I wanted to play a solo game I wouldn't be playing an MMO... So lately that's what I'm doing ..... playing a solo game and it's NOT UO.

I play UO for about 2 hours a week now... log in to do the EM Event on my shard. (don't care about most any other shard it's not my "home")... am not about to move 14 accounts to another shard that's just too much work and not something I care to do... Besides I own 2 keeps and 2 castles not really going to find that on any other shard I could play on anyway... My home is GLs...

I've tried finding other groups to do things with... but it seems that I just feel like an "outsider" most of the time... just don't feel too at home with other groups... most of my old friends have gone... several have passed away and will never return. The memory of those friends long gone sometimes makes it hard to play... I miss them terribly. Those who remain don't really play much either... so I keep asking myself why I keep paying for UO... especially for as many accounts as I do... but I keep hoping maybe that life will return to the game. But I just don't see that happening.

When I first started UO all I wanted was to own a Castle... I met that goal now. But back then playing UO wasn't about getting stuff... it was more about the adventure... banding together to do a dungeon... did a lot of RP ..... there were many battles with other groups back then. I remember groups of Urks, the Atalan... and even the Temple of Mondain. The rp was fun... always something happening and not all the focus on gear and stuff... But then AoS sent everyone into this frenzy of getting gear... soon battles were more about who had the best gear than anything... people grew frustrated and cried out for a return to the old ways... but you couldn't gear back... because then all the mobs changed to meet the new gear... and if you modded your character to the gear you couldn't then play with plain gm gear for rp.... as it didn't work out with your new set up to do things otherwise..... and didn't feel much like playing 2 sets of characters one for RP and one for PvM... was a separation many didn't like... a lot of folk eventually left the game... they didn't want to keep up anymore with the changing system.

Those who remained soon found that they spent more and more time acquiring stuff and less and less time doing the things they once enjoyed... soon we found we were all slaves to the gathering of more gear... more stuff... now we have all these EM Events and it's all about the "Drop"... what is the drop who got the drop... the haves and the have nots... and soon what was something we did for fun has become something done for greed. All the time now it's what is it worth... lost is the game that I remember. I remember when it was about the community, the friendships, the adventure. That time has gone... and I wish it would return. I think I stay in hopes it will somehow come back through all this greed... but I don't much see that happening.

When the EM program started the second time I remember them saying there would be no items given. Item was given though on that first day... I know I got it... Items were randomly given after as well... but we were more about the story and the adventure... sure I got loads of drops back then... and they were nice... put them in the castle for the guild... wrote books about the story of how the items were acquired... because the adventure was the key... not the item. But the story anymore seems secondary to the items now... hard to follow most the story... it seems lost. Anymore the events are go here, kill, kill, kill and kill some more... they try to rp a story out but everyone is casting, casting, casting so many EVs and RCs out there you can't see who's speaking... or trying to speak.. gate opens everyone piles though and its kill kill kill some more and more and more... and then at the end if 2 gates open it's a fight to stay online as 50 more characters suddenly appear as everyone brings the multi'botted gang... and prepares for a drop.... meanwhile me and my 1 character crash continually from all the scripting bots.... can't really move or see or know where my character is in the sea of spells and what-not... seems futile to even try... but try I do... if you succeed you get a drop.... but you wonder what significance this has??? Everyone spams selling, buying, drop..... but what is it and how does it relate to the story I ask myself..... and often anymore it has little meaning. Just some item generated to appease the masses... make some rich and others hunger for more... some whine about the color, some whine about the item and how so and so got that on this or that shard a week or two ago... and this color was done on that item last month.... blah blah.... but the story is lost... and forgotten in another week.

This is how the game is now... and anymore I'm failing to see the "fun"...

 

[Stinky Pete]

I don't own a single cameo... don't care and I sure as hell wouldn't pay 100M for one let alone 300M... or more. IMO if I can't get it myself not worth having most of the time for that stuff... I used to enjoy taming and training up pets but since I ran out of scrolls for pets I really don't care to do that anymore either... and since I seriously do not care to PvP I don't much care to go to Fel to get scrolls... once upon a time, I would go when friends went and I'd enjoy the company doing spawns... and whenever we'd get raided I'd vanish. I'm fairly good at that. But since those friends have long since quit playing... really don't have any desire to go do spawns... certainly am not the sort to do them solo. In fact, don't much care to do much of anything in UO solo...

So since I don't care to solo things, don't like to play UO by myself and everything now seems to be geared to soloing the game I rarely even bother to log in. If I wanted to play a solo game I wouldn't be playing an MMO... So lately that's what I'm doing ..... playing a solo game and it's NOT UO.

I play UO for about 2 hours a week now... log in to do the EM Event on my shard. (don't care about most any other shard it's not my "home")... am not about to move 14 accounts to another shard that's just too much work and not something I care to do... Besides I own 2 keeps and 2 castles not really going to find that on any other shard I could play on anyway... My home is GLs...

I've tried finding other groups to do things with... but it seems that I just feel like an "outsider" most of the time... just don't feel too at home with other groups... most of my old friends have gone... several have passed away and will never return. The memory of those friends long gone sometimes makes it hard to play... I miss them terribly. Those who remain don't really play much either... so I keep asking myself why I keep paying for UO... especially for as many accounts as I do... but I keep hoping maybe that life will return to the game. But I just don't see that happening.

When I first started UO all I wanted was to own a Castle... I met that goal now. But back then playing UO wasn't about getting stuff... it was more about the adventure... banding together to do a dungeon... did a lot of RP ..... there were many battles with other groups back then. I remember groups of Urks, the Atalan... and even the Temple of Mondain. The rp was fun... always something happening and not all the focus on gear and stuff... But then AoS sent everyone into this frenzy of getting gear... soon battles were more about who had the best gear than anything... people grew frustrated and cried out for a return to the old ways... but you couldn't gear back... because then all the mobs changed to meet the new gear... and if you modded your character to the gear you couldn't then play with plain gm gear for rp.... as it didn't work out with your new set up to do things otherwise..... and didn't feel much like playing 2 sets of characters one for RP and one for PvM... was a separation many didn't like... a lot of folk eventually left the game... they didn't want to keep up anymore with the changing system.

Those who remained soon found that they spent more and more time acquiring stuff and less and less time doing the things they once enjoyed... soon we found we were all slaves to the gathering of more gear... more stuff... now we have all these EM Events and it's all about the "Drop"... what is the drop who got the drop... the haves and the have nots... and soon what was something we did for fun has become something done for greed. All the time now it's what is it worth... lost is the game that I remember. I remember when it was about the community, the friendships, the adventure. That time has gone... and I wish it would return. I think I stay in hopes it will somehow come back through all this greed... but I don't much see that happening.

When the EM program started the second time I remember them saying there would be no items given. Item was given though on that first day... I know I got it... Items were randomly given after as well... but we were more about the story and the adventure... sure I got loads of drops back then... and they were nice... put them in the castle for the guild... wrote books about the story of how the items were acquired... because the adventure was the key... not the item. But the story anymore seems secondary to the items now... hard to follow most the story... it seems lost. Anymore the events are go here, kill, kill, kill and kill some more... they try to rp a story out but everyone is casting, casting, casting so many EVs and RCs out there you can't see who's speaking... or trying to speak.. gate opens everyone piles though and its kill kill kill some more and more and more... and then at the end if 2 gates open it's a fight to stay online as 50 more characters suddenly appear as everyone brings the multi'botted gang... and prepares for a drop.... meanwhile me and my 1 character crash continually from all the scripting bots.... can't really move or see or know where my character is in the sea of spells and what-not... seems futile to even try... but try I do... if you succeed you get a drop.... but you wonder what significance this has??? Everyone spams selling, buying, drop..... but what is it and how does it relate to the story I ask myself..... and often anymore it has little meaning. Just some item generated to appease the masses... make some rich and others hunger for more... some whine about the color, some whine about the item and how so and so got that on this or that shard a week or two ago... and this color was done on that item last month.... blah blah.... but the story is lost... and forgotten in another week.

This is how the game is now... and anymore I'm failing to see the "fun"...

I'm pretty sure we have all read this sad story 100 times now. WTF does it have to do with the topic? Do you just copy and paste this into every thread you see? Your depressing story has been posted into almost every thread on Stratics for years. Seriously, just quit already or at least try to do something differently with your game time.

 

[Stinky Pete]

Ummmm...... Ok..... *Slowly walks backwards and closes the door*

I say I am a THIEF because I use snooping and stealing to steal things from other players. I have never sold gold or items for cash and I wouldn't say that I have ever cheated in any way that most other players haven't. These are all verifiable facts, anyone who has ever had the misfortune of meeting me in game knows this. I told you on the other forums, you make a lot of assumptions. You know nothing about what I do but you spout off like you do. How could anyone possibly believe anything you say when you make completely baseless assumptions about me and everything else you described in your lunatic ramblings?

 

[Polaris75]

You just "fence items" for other players.... hmmmm. Yea, no reasons for that I'm sure. You have to have some sort of connections to some IDOCers, or someone who doesn't want their names known / vendor spots known, or something like that for sure.

 

[Stinky Pete]

You just "fence items" for other players.... hmmmm. Yea, no reasons for that I'm sure. You have to have some sort of connections to some IDOCers, or someone who doesn't want their names known / vendor spots known, or something like that for sure.

I already told you, I am in a guild of thieves. There are some on our shard who refuse to buy stolen items. I sell stolen items. That's it. The type of cheating you describe here doesn't happen on my shard, which is another verifiable fact that I have already told you. For a "truther" you sure do blindly trust your own stupid assumptions instead of facts often. Perhaps it's time to look into all the other "truths" you think you know.

 

[Rogedan]

I think that if there is a person online that I would walk away from mid conversation in RL - then I should not talk to them online either. I don’t like to pollute my mind. It took me a bit to realize that is a choice I can make, in real life and online. So thankful I don’t have to take such garbage seriously.

I was interested in this thread because I play mostly on Baja and the commission venders work great, as expected by most I think. I hope they are permanent.

 

[ShriNayne]

Wow, that escalated quickly, this thread will get locked if it veers too far off topic and I don't really think real-life politics has any place in this thread. Maybe get back to actually discussing the vendors?

 

[Grace of Minoc]

I am waiting to hear him scream "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"

 

[Draden]

What puzzles me is many have said they hate the game, cant wait for it to close and such ........so why are you here, to bring others down ? Just find something else to do and not ruin it for others. If you say that your trying to improve the game so you can enjoy it I would say that there are better ways to do that other than trying to ruin it for new or returning players . As i have recently just started back to game after reading lots of threads similar to this one I caught myself considering leaving due to ( the world is falling , this place sucks) type comments i found here. I realized it had to be taken with a grain of salt and to enjoy what i could when i could as it is a game for fun! I look forward to the Bold new thing they are going to try and hope I will enjoy that aspect ( whatever they offer as new content) of the game as well. If not I am sure i can find something else in game to enjoy if not just the company of folks i find in said game

 

[Keven2002]

Although entertaining I'd agree this thread is now pretty far from the original post. I tried to understand where the OP was coming from but majority of the claims were 100% opinion based which were tied back to scripting when I asked for the facts. It then turned into bashing of people and the game (which I agree if you hate the game then why the heck are you on this forum??) which completely negates any validity the OP was looking to get on this thread. I'd be fine with the mods locking this thread because it's basically just malarcky at this point.

Just as a side - I will say that from years of reading stratics, Pete is a role player and plays the role of a scoundrel thief in the forums but I highly doubt he's out pickpocketing people in real life on the streets. I guess maybe he should head out to Hollywood with his acting if the OP really thinks that his stratics persona is how he really is. I guess since I have the title of Duelist in the game I go around smacking people with a white glove and challenging them to a duel at high noon too though right?

 

[petemage]

What puzzles me is many have said they hate the game, cant wait for it to close and such ........so why are you here, to bring others down ? Just find something else to do and not ruin it for others. If you say that your trying to improve the game so you can enjoy it I would say that there are better ways to do that other than trying to ruin it for new or returning players . As i have recently just started back to game after reading lots of threads similar to this one I caught myself considering leaving due to ( the world is falling , this place sucks) type comments i found here. I realized it had to be taken with a grain of salt and to enjoy what i could when i could as it is a game for fun! I look forward to the Bold new thing they are going to try and hope I will enjoy that aspect ( whatever they offer as new content) of the game as well. If not I am sure i can find something else in game to enjoy if not just the company of folks i find in said game

Well said, I was always happy for the new players who didn't knew about all the end-game problems UO has. They were just happy about the little things and enjoyed exploring a new world. And I made sure my negativity stays where it belongs - outside Sosaria. But then it's the same with every other game. I've yet to come across a popular game forum that is not doom and gloom.

 

[Archnight]

Thread has been cleaned up. Please keep all comments on topic without any discussions of real-life politics. All posts that do not follow will be removed and warnings will be issued. Thanks for your understanding

 

[Stinky Pete]

What puzzles me is many have said they hate the game, cant wait for it to close and such ........so why are you here, to bring others down ?

Yes, that is exactly what they are trying to do. There is a whole squad of people that do this on Stratics. They say they love the game on one hand and then **** all over it with the other. I'm not sure why it bothers me so much. I don't believe anyone should be censored like they do on the official forums, but for some crazy reason I just have to call them on this when I see it. It's probably a lost cause but if I can discourage just one person from posting their gloom and doom I feel I have done my part.

 

[TheGrimReefer]

Although entertaining I'd agree this thread is now pretty far from the original post. I tried to understand where the OP was coming from but majority of the claims were 100% opinion based which were tied back to scripting when I asked for the facts. It then turned into bashing of people and the game (which I agree if you hate the game then why the heck are you on this forum??) which completely negates any validity the OP was looking to get on this thread. I'd be fine with the mods locking this thread because it's basically just malarcky at this point.

Just as a side - I will say that from years of reading stratics, Pete is a role player and plays the role of a scoundrel thief in the forums but I highly doubt he's out pickpocketing people in real life on the streets. I guess maybe he should head out to Hollywood with his acting if the OP really thinks that his stratics persona is how he really is. I guess since I have the title of Duelist in the game I go around smacking people with a white glove and challenging them to a duel at high noon too though right?

How do you think the claims are 100% opinion based. Not sure what you see on your shard, but what I have been claiming IS HAPPENING on Atlantic. People buying everything up just to jack up the prices. If you havent noticed that everything got an increase in price, then you shouldnt be in this thread. This thread is about the Commision Vendors being bad for Economy as prices are higher then they have ever been due to no Vendor Fees. Its not Supply and demand. Prices were steady for years until they were allowed to sell items for whatever they want without fees. Im not sure how this thread got into IDOC's and scripting as my points were never aimed towards that.

 

[Uriah Heep]

Thread has been cleaned up. Please keep all comments on topic without any discussions of real-life politics. All posts that do not follow will be removed and warnings will be issued. Thanks for your understanding

 

[Stinky Pete]

Its not Supply and demand.

It is supply and demand. If people are paying the inflated prices, that is what the item is worth. You have no idea if the market is paying those prices, only that the seller is attempting to get that.

 

[Xris]

Prices were steady for years until they were allowed to sell items for whatever they want without fees.

No? Lol first off they have fees, it's just not daily.....

Second, prices have been volatile for years, wayyyy before commission vendors. The exploits that were used years ago (duping items and gold etc) created this, not vendors.

I said it before, you can make bank working VS (hundreds of mils if not plats a month). I found this boring, but it's an easy way to make gold.

Sent from my SM-J337VPP using Tapatalk

 

[TheGrimReefer]

Are people so blind that they dont see the increased prices?

 

[Xris]

Are people so blind that they dont see the increased prices?

I think we're trying to say it's the market, not a vendor issue. If someone pays the price, that's what it's worth. Something could be worth 20m today and 100m next week. If people pay it, that's the value. We understand commission vendors added more items to the market, and you'd expect prices to lower. They didn't, people are paying more on some items. This sounds like insanity, but it's not the vendors fault. The UO economy is insane, and if someone that has unlimited gold needs something off VS, they will buy everything out no matter the price, thereby increasing it. There are also rumors of nefarious actors scripting buy low/sell high scripts. No idea if it's true, but again, not a vendor problem.

Sent from my SM-J337VPP using Tapatalk

 

[Herman]

Are people so blind that they dont see the increased prices?

The comission vendors was put in game to help running vendors on low pop shards and if I read what other people have wrote so they have
sometimes you have to take the good with the bad

Supply and demand, Buyers and sellers, Buyer/seller market are all the same thing just diffrent sides of the same coin.
If you change supply and demand for Buyer and seller it makes much more sens and it will better explain the jacking up prices sellers buy out competition and now there are less sellers and prices go up
however supply and demand does not explain what you see with comission vendors how could it there are no buyers in that part of your post

only old vendors with daily fees vs comission vendors (no buyers) still does not make it false just can't explain it with supply and demand

If i had to guess I say your are probably right simply because it make sense
Sellers sold items before comission vendors for less than they wanted so they would sell fast and not eat up to much profit now they can sell items for more and trying the market

So you are right but Comission vendors are good for the game so they should stay

 

[Keven2002]

How do you think the claims are 100% opinion based.

The claim that commission vendors are bad for the market has no factual base on increasing prices; which in turn makes them opinion based. When I asked for the facts, the OP went off topic about scritping and IDOCs. Those are legit things but there is no link to commission vendors. It's like me saying I catch more red lights when I'm wearing a blue shirt. I can weave together some far fetched theory (that is 100% opinion based!) and then try to back my way into some facts but that doesn't mean it hold weight. Just like this claim doesn't.

Are people so blind that they dont see the increased prices?

Again, I will agree that prices perhaps have increased on certain things... but you can't honestly say it's 100% because of commission vendors. The reason for price increase is very simple... others have said it as well as me...

It is supply and demand. If people are paying the inflated prices, that is what the item is worth. You have no idea if the market is paying those prices, only that the seller is attempting to get that.

This. And THIS can be the case with or without commission vendors. This happened 20 years ago at britain bank when people didn't even use vendors and were selling or trading silver vanq weapons.

 

[Pawain]

The commission vendors are great when used "properly".

The OP was noticing facts. Players have used then to raise prices because they do not cost as much as the other vendors. So players can put a single essence on one for a stupid high price. (lets blame the VS problems on that).

If they were used without greed, they would be fine.

The discussion went in the wrong direction very fast. The OP is not against them or does not think they are bad. Greed is basically what they are saying is bad.

 

[Polaris75]

The claim that commission vendors are bad for the market has no factual base on increasing prices; which in turn makes them opinion based. When I asked for the facts, the OP went off topic about scritping and IDOCs. Those are legit things but there is no link to commission vendors. It's like me saying I catch more red lights when I'm wearing a blue shirt. I can weave together some far fetched theory (that is 100% opinion based!) and then try to back my way into some facts but that doesn't mean it hold weight. Just like this claim doesn't.

You have no clue what you are talking about. I have heard from them directly that they "sell" IDOC items for 50k and 150k on purpose. Soul seekers use to sell for 700k, and people at IDOCs would make a profit. The Pros had 75, so they began pricing them at 150k purposefully. He said they did so to "Force people to buy gold." If I could post people's names, I could copy and paste exactly what was said (I would never do that anyway.)

It's common sense to assume they are dictating the market on the other end now that commission vendors are a thing. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out there's a profit margin there...... And anyone who cannot see the prices have sky rocketed on most items are blind... You know that UO use to have a Mafia right? Some crook fled them to New Zealand once with millions. There are books about how people made millions. A lot of people made millions..... sadly. That's why the normal players have left. That's why websites exist to sell gold and items, but that's just the tip of the iceberg...

 

[Stinky Pete]

My first instinct was to get really deep into free-market economics and how a change like commission vendors could have a temporary effect on equilibrium prices. Then I read about things like UO mafias which is way more exciting. So I'm just going to sit back and see how this one plays out.

 

[Polaris75]

My first instinct was to get really deep into free-market economics and how a change like commission vendors could have a temporary effect on equilibrium prices. Then I read about things like UO mafias which is way more exciting. So I'm just going to sit back and see how this one plays out.

Keep on thieving.... I'm sure there's tons left to steal and whatnot....

 

[Innoxicated]

the story is lost... and forgotten in another week.

I agree with this, and it is a bit of a bummer when some EM's may actually have a pretty cool story to tell. However, i actually kinda like the kill,kill,kill part!!

This is how the game is now... and anymore I'm failing to see the "fun"...

If its taken you this long to get your first major UO burn-out, you've been doing something I haven't, lmao... Dont worry in time the futility of the game will fade and the nostalgia generally comes calling.

 

[Keven2002]

My first instinct was to get really deep into free-market economics and how a change like commission vendors could have a temporary effect on equilibrium prices. Then I read about things like UO mafias which is way more exciting. So I'm just going to sit back and see how this one plays out.

Exactly my thoughts! I tried to stay in the shallow end of the pool with simple "supply/demand" and some people were even saying that was wrong... obviously the UO Illuminati controls the markets though and there is only their supply or demand LMAO!

That's why websites exist to sell gold and items, but that's just the tip of the iceberg...

That's a bold move cotton... let's see how this plays out!

 

[Polaris75]

Exactly my thoughts! I tried to stay in the shallow end of the pool with simple "supply/demand" and some people were even saying that was wrong... obviously the UO Illuminati controls the markets though and there is only their supply or demand LMAO!


That's a bold move cotton... let's see how this plays out!

A tiny image of what they showed me they were running and what scripts looked like.... I have excluded any of the actual script shown to me. I did none of it and told them I would never run someone elses programs on my PC as I never trust anyone like that, I just wanted to go to IDOCs like the rest of the game.... and to protect theirselves in the midst of an obvious outsider... they "disbanded" the group I was in and removed us all.



The next day they re-added everyone to the group whom they wanted to remain. The leader even went so far as to claim to everyone on Stratics he was "quitting" and made a big to do about it. One of the elites of the group showed me a link to the books on how to make gold and gave me a ton of tips. He was the one to tell me the mafia stories. Just google and read for yourselves some of the more famous stories of hacking and duping in the article of one of the discussions between Josh and Mike (two famous programmers) who no longer play any games. Google "Mike Josh Ultima Online Hack" and read for yourselves. It was published to the public on a pc website, and is simply a discussion of some of what took place over the past 20 years in UO and WoW and how such things work (without revealing any specific details.)

I hope this is not deleted, as I did not mention anything about any of this specifically and neither does the article, and I excluded any names currently playing. They themselves published the articles online on a very famous website for all to read. I also have not said how to run (because I do not even know how to run, I never even tried) or revealed any illegal scripts, just a part of a screenie a friend sent me to give the trolls a bit to chew on.

This is what the professional IDOC guild leaders and the website creaters are running. The head of the crew did not even have to update his IDOC list on his website. It was all automated and everything ran automatically together. He was busy with his real life job... as he himself was a very famous programmer.

They use to price items they have 75 of for 50-150k to force players from IDOCs to sell theirs for 45-145k... then they would buy that item themselves. They would either lose 2 or lose 1.... but either way, the IDOCer ran out of items. When no more were for sell they would raise their prices back to 500-700k. They did so to force all players to buy gold from the websites to keep their profit margins going. They even have multiboxing scripts that automate the searching and buying of items from all 32 shards at once, once an item meets its requirements for purchase (profit margin or throw away points.) It is common sense to assume that they are abusing the new system as well. If anyone cannot see it then they do not want to see it, which means they they themselves are trolls and are part of the groups protecting their profit margin.

 

[Polaris75]

Some of the more admirable scripters came on Stratics begging Mesanna and the Devs to delete path-finding from the game.... as it is the source of most of the problems. The Devs did not and have not, leading many to assert claims of collusion among those in power and the elites. They want the cheating to continue..... it's highly profitable for both sides, it seems. Mike and Josh state that themselves in the article I mentioned too.

I hope the last is not true, I am just stating claims made here on Stratics by those group members themselves who tried to fix the problem.

Commission vendors were a god send for these guys... trust me. I wonder if the devs anticipated that or not?

 

[Keven2002]

@Polaris75 - I get what you are saying and I'm not discounting that people script and that IDOCers make tons of gold and sell. I don't think anyone is denying that. I actually find it interesting what you have provided and I'm glad you went to the trouble. Since you went to the trouble of writing a nice write up on your stance I figured I'd take some time to do the same.

That said...

Nobody here has given much support that Scripting/IDOCing has any real correlation with Commission Vendors being bad for the market; at least it hasn't been proven from what I've seen. While what you (and some others) are saying about scripting can be 100% true that still doesn't prove anything about commission vendors because ultimately they can still put things on regular vendors or auction safes or spam in gen chat. Maybe if you said "Scipters are bad for the market" I'd agree but using commission vendors as a scapegoat doesn't make sense.

This is getting a little off topic from commission vendors but this goes back to my original point. Supply and Demand (combined with opportunity cost)! I'll give one more attempt at explaining it while using an example.

Let's take soul seeker as the example. If the "going price" is 750k and there is a balance in supply/demand. Now someone scripts an IDOC and just so happens to get 20 soul seekers and they decide to sell all 20. There is now a surplus in supply so if demand isn't also increase (which if we are being honest it won't as the price original price of 750k reflects) the price will need to be lowered to generate artificial demand. For argument sake let's just say that forces others to also make price cuts and the scripters buy up ALL the soul seekers under 750k. Great... now they have to buy basically every soul seeker out there so they can fully deplete the supply and charge a new asking price to artificially inflate the market. Now it's STILL up to the public to set the demand because if the scripter charges 2M for something that had a going price of 750k that doesn't mean the new price becomes 2M unless the general population deems it possible and buys the higher priced item. That's supply/demand 101.

Layered into all of that is opportunity cost. I'm an average player that hunts things that drop a soul seeker. I work hard for them but put them on my vendor for 725k to try to undercut competition (does this make me as bad as the scripters for lowering the market price?). All of sudden the market artificially dips to 250k. It's up to ME to determine if I want to drop the price that low or just keep it on my vendor at 725k (which BTW if it's a commission vendor I'M NOT CHARGED UNTIL IT SELLS!!.... but this is bad for the market right?). It's also up to ME to decide if I want to stay in the soul seeker market... once I see how the market is on this item I'd probably stop farming soul seekers and look for another sought after thing with more demand and less supply.

I know this for 100% fact because not only do the laws of supply/demand support it but I've also seen this first hand. I used to make gold by taming high end GD or other pets and selling them off in Mag (or Luna)... I was in it for quite some time way back when things were rated 1-5 stars. There was always supply/demand at play and sometimes I'd take less on a pet I could get more for based on the supply of similar pets. I made a good UO living. Then the taming/pet changes came in and people just weren't paying the same prices they were before for a 4.5 GD or Cu Sidhe b/c pets could be trained up now. The supply pretty much shot through the roof of Cu's because just about any Cu would work and the demand actually shrunk (especially on GD) because people could get Cu's easily enough themselves (and were now on par with a GD). The time I had to spend to find a higher end pet versus what I'd get for said pet became extremely unequal (opportunity cost went through the roof). So... Supply & Opp Cost went way up while demand went way down.... Guess what? I got out of the business! I changed to do champ spawns are selling power scrolls because guess what.... Demand went through the roof!

At the end of the day it is 100% up to whoever is selling and whoever is buying (scripters or not). Additionally commission vendors aren't the only means of selling goods so how can you pick one channel of sales and say that's bad for the market (with the reason being "because of scripters")?

 

[Stinky Pete]

@Polaris75 - I get what you are saying and I'm not discounting that people script and that IDOCers make tons of gold and sell. I don't think anyone is denying that. I actually find it interesting what you have provided and I'm glad you went to the trouble. Since you went to the trouble of writing a nice write up on your stance I figured I'd take some time to do the same.

That said...

Nobody here has given much support that Scripting/IDOCing has any real correlation with Commission Vendors being bad for the market; at least it hasn't been proven from what I've seen. While what you (and some others) are saying about scripting can be 100% true that still doesn't prove anything about commission vendors because ultimately they can still put things on regular vendors or auction safes or spam in gen chat. Maybe if you said "Scipters are bad for the market" I'd agree but using commission vendors as a scapegoat doesn't make sense.

This is getting a little off topic from commission vendors but this goes back to my original point. Supply and Demand (combined with opportunity cost)! I'll give one more attempt at explaining it while using an example.

Let's take soul seeker as the example. If the "going price" is 750k and there is a balance in supply/demand. Now someone scripts an IDOC and just so happens to get 20 soul seekers and they decide to sell all 20. There is now a surplus in supply so if demand isn't also increase (which if we are being honest it won't as the price original price of 750k reflects) the price will need to be lowered to generate artificial demand. For argument sake let's just say that forces others to also make price cuts and the scripters buy up ALL the soul seekers under 750k. Great... now they have to buy basically every soul seeker out there so they can fully deplete the supply and charge a new asking price to artificially inflate the market. Now it's STILL up to the public to set the demand because if the scripter charges 2M for something that had a going price of 750k that doesn't mean the new price becomes 2M unless the general population deems it possible and buys the higher priced item. That's supply/demand 101.

Layered into all of that is opportunity cost. I'm an average player that hunts things that drop a soul seeker. I work hard for them but put them on my vendor for 725k to try to undercut competition (does this make me as bad as the scripters for lowering the market price?). All of sudden the market artificially dips to 250k. It's up to ME to determine if I want to drop the price that low or just keep it on my vendor at 725k (which BTW if it's a commission vendor I'M NOT CHARGED UNTIL IT SELLS!!.... but this is bad for the market right?). It's also up to ME to decide if I want to stay in the soul seeker market... once I see how the market is on this item I'd probably stop farming soul seekers and look for another sought after thing with more demand and less supply.

I know this for 100% fact because not only do the laws of supply/demand support it but I've also seen this first hand. I used to make gold by taming high end GD or other pets and selling them off in Mag (or Luna)... I was in it for quite some time way back when things were rated 1-5 stars. There was always supply/demand at play and sometimes I'd take less on a pet I could get more for based on the supply of similar pets. I made a good UO living. Then the taming/pet changes came in and people just weren't paying the same prices they were before for a 4.5 GD or Cu Sidhe b/c pets could be trained up now. The supply pretty much shot through the roof of Cu's because just about any Cu would work and the demand actually shrunk (especially on GD) because people could get Cu's easily enough themselves (and were now on par with a GD). The time I had to spend to find a higher end pet versus what I'd get for said pet became extremely unequal (opportunity cost went through the roof). So... Supply & Opp Cost went way up while demand went way down.... Guess what? I got out of the business! I changed to do champ spawns are selling power scrolls because guess what.... Demand went through the roof!

At the end of the day it is 100% up to whoever is selling and whoever is buying (scripters or not). Additionally commission vendors aren't the only means of selling goods so how can you pick one channel of sales and say that's bad for the market (with the reason being "because of scripters")?

But.... But... But... The Mafia!

Get out of here with your facts and understanding of market economies. I want more stories about the UO Illuminati and famous programmers.

 

[Polaris75]

@Polaris75
Layered into all of that is opportunity cost. I'm an average player that hunts things that drop a soul seeker. I work hard for them but put them on my vendor for 725k to try to undercut competition (does this make me as bad as the scripters for lowering the market price?). All of sudden the market artificially dips to 250k. It's up to ME to determine if I want to drop the price that low or just keep it on my vendor at 725k (which BTW if it's a commission vendor I'M NOT CHARGED UNTIL IT SELLS!!.... but this is bad for the market right?). It's also up to ME to decide if I want to stay in the soul seeker market... once I see how the market is on this item I'd probably stop farming soul seekers and look for another sought after thing with more demand and less supply.

The market would never drop to 250k anymore though is the point. They have flipped it and do the exact opposite now. They have no reason to drop the market to such a low... do not forget that some people have 5,000p just waiting to sell. They duped it in mass. The goal is to sell gold. They will simply buy all of your soul seekers now and leave theirs for 2m in your example (and restock their inventory.) For those that do not know... the typical price of gold has went up 175-200% the past year or so. Couple that with the increased market value of items in the new economy (post commission vendors,) those guys are now making 3-4x what they were a year ago.

Some people do not care about gold, which is why there are people's castles stocked with items.... but they will not take gold for it. They want real money only.

All in all, I am glad I could throw a ton of rubble on my home shard for slightly higher than Atlantic value (I do not want them making their way back to Atlantic is why.) I am just stating the obvious, which is the same which the OP was complaining about, that commission vendors have wrecked the economy. It's not simply Marketing 101.... it is buy low, sell high, use every trick under the sun, to make as much profit as possible. With no vendor fees.... the last statement (make as much profit as possible) corresponds directly with raising the prices of everything by 150-200%. Use every trick under the sun corresponds directly with the purple Mesanna cat on VS for 175m (200 other examples there scamming people.) The buy low and sell high in your example, is just a tiny tidbit of it.

 

[Polaris75]

But.... But... But... The Mafia!

Get out of here with your facts and understanding of market economies. I want more stories about the UO Illuminati and famous programmers.

Find it yourself. I'm sure you know more than be told Stinky Pete... I dunno how else Thieving can be profitable anymore these days with everything blessed. Fencing sounds more likely.... as you yourself claimed. Kevin likely actually looked into the article I referenced and has an idea of the gold those guys were making. And if you do not think people would go to great lengths to protect their "work"... then you're mistaken. There were a few guys pulling lambo's off of this game and WoW. A few were sued for millions. The devs of this game seem more lax in their enforcement... I am sure if someone would have sued the website owners.... we wouldn't be in this position the game is in currently (dying with people leeching.)

 

[Keven2002]

I think you're missing my point lol. I don't think anything is sinking in about Commission vendors and while everything about scripting/Idocs/Duping is true it still has little to no impact on Commission Vendors. I agree there has been inflation but that's primarily because UO has been around 20+ years and (as you correctly mentioned in your last post) duping. That's 20 years of people killing things to generate gold in a legit way without a true gold sink to remove it (NPC vendors don't sell a ton of high end things to sink gold into) and top of people duping bags full of million gold checks. This was all set in motion LONG before commission vendors.

My second thing is that I see what you are saying the gold is the main priority so they can sell it on the sites. What you aren't addressing is that (once again) it still comes down to supply/demand. At the end of the day the scipters are NOT the only people selling items so there is no cornering the market and this is how the market is regulated.

Let's forget supply and demand.

You are saying that the scripters (with all their gold) are setting the market prices for 2M on our previous example right b/c they have bought up everything else? Well why would the average Joe set that item they acquired (because you can still acquire soul seekers) for 250k once the scripters sets the market price at 2M?? Heck I'd let the scripter buy my stuff at 1.5M (TWICE the initial market price) and let them charge 2M. If they increased to 3M then I'd charge 2.5M.... I'm still making more money (and staying legit)! The only possible niche they can corner is the things that no longer spawn and fall from IDOCs because those are X available in the world... for the most part though these items decoration so who cares (if you want an original Rembrandt then it's on YOU to pay the price) but things like soul seekers (or more realistically Slithers / cameos / leet jewels) still spawn and can be acquired by the average Joe who is playing and in turn can sell at whatever price they want (even if it's to a scripter).

With no vendor fees....

Just to be clear. Commission vendors take a 5% cut from every sale so there is IS a fee. If someone is selling something that will move quickly (IE not sit on the vendor for more than a few days) and it has a high price; it is actually more costly for the seller to use a commission vendor.

So given that Commission Vendors charge commission and hypothetically could do the same exact thing with a normal vendor (or auction safe)...just so I'm clear.... how exactly do Commission Vendors hurt the market?

 

[Polaris75]

So given that Commission Vendors charge commission and hypothetically could do the same exact thing with a normal vendor (or auction safe)...just so I'm clear.... how exactly do Commission Vendors hurt the market?

1) Because you cannot scam items for 175m on normal vendors... the fees would eat you alive.
2) Because it is new people who buy gold.... new players do not have soul seekers and deco already and have to buy gold to catch up.
3) Because those "decorators" you don't care about.... are in competition with other people who decorate..... the decoration items (that no longer spawn as you stated correctly) have increased in value.
4) Because the website peeps control champion spawn areas, forcing blue tamers to buy scrolls.... and those have increased in value. I heard someone on Atlantic's general chat asking yesterday why the heck a 120 scroll had gone up to 75m or something.... two people answered him correctly. Commission vendors were their answer.

No fees = less rules and downsides to sliding the scale much higher. Thus.... the scales have slide much higher and the economy has inflated. It is not due to anything you state, it is due simply to commission vendors. It doesn't take rocket science. Before, people were selling fast so as not to have fees eating at them.... prices were competitively lowered. Now, there are certain items (which you yourself stated) that are not attainable to the average player, that have sky rocketed in prices helping the websites sell more gold.

[Yes I understand there are some people who will buy 20p and do not care to pay for a Rembrandt. They will pay as much as it takes to get what they want, and other people's gold is limited because they refuse to buy gold. There are also new players who just want a pet and figure it now costs 300p to scroll a Pet. The Rembrandt collectors buying 20p and the new players getting ripped, all helps the gold sellers.] It definitely hurts the game. More new players will simply turn away..... Seeing the price of one powerscroll and the price of gold on a site and being like... "nah."

 

[Stinky Pete]

I dunno how else Thieving can be profitable anymore these days with everything blessed.

Imagine a world where people play a video game without worrying about how profitable it is.

It seems to me that you are jealous of the cheaters and gold sellers. You should do what I did a few years ago: Take all of your stuff and throw it in a trash barrel, then delete all of your characters and start a new one on Siege Perilous. Problem solved. No more gold sellers. No more IDOC scripters. Abandon thy possessions and set thyself free! Just don't come anywhere near me though... Because I think you are freaking nuts.