client patch 7.0.12.1

[Cirno]

The money that is taken from the winning bidder is gone from the game.
Although they may earn back more, that does not increase the amount of gold in the game.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Thus was born Luna, and thus did smaller business die out. And thus is the root of the problem.

The smaller businesses didn't necessarily have to die out.
With cooperation between many smaller traders, an alternative to Luna could have been created in the forum of a player run town, or trading outpost. It has been done before, although by richer players, so there is a degree of separation that makes success not proven.
If ten people who wanted to run little shops got together and cooperated, they could have bought a group of houses in a single location, and set up a mini Luna. When word of many well stocked and not unreasonably priced vendors spread, people would start checking the vendors there regularly. This already happens with certain good shops off the beaten track, but would be more likely to happen if it were a collection.

Working together is a bit of a lost art in UO.
Everyone wants to be able to do things solo, or rely on others as little as possible.

Well, basically the same thing would happen to any efforts like that as happened to the independents over the last years. Some of whom were part of smaller centers of trade at crossroads, large clearings, the edges and outskirts of towns. The big guys buy up whatever they have for good prices and resell them at higher prices in Luna. This left, and would leave, these smaller groups without a steady base of buyers because, well, buyers usually find empty vendors there and go to Luna anyways.

No, unless the small guys can steadily produce and sell, without having to compete on a scale that's only fit for the extreme powergamers, they simply can't establish a business and steady customers.

 

[Jartan]

The money that is taken from the winning bidder is gone from the game.
Although they may earn back more, that does not increase the amount of gold in the game.

Sorry I guess I should of been clearer. I don't understand how it's going to be a SIGNIFICANT gold sink. I mean what's going to happen? All the billionaires are going to bid 5 million a week per vendor to sell their recall scrolls?

Why would they even bother when they'll own the housing plots instead?

 

[G.v.P]

You know, they could probably just add a random Arena/PvP related entry to the ciloc every couple publishes to keep us thinking they will eventually release the system, but never actually do it.

True, lol

 

[Woodsman]

I'm a bit lost on how these tent vendors are going to be a gold sink? I mean you have to make a profit to justify whatever you bid on them.

It also means they'll easily go to the rich Luna vendors/powergamers

I'd be more impressed if the Magincia vendors were a lottery system as well that allowed for anybody to have a shot instead of going to the richest players.

Make them one-entry per account kind of thing, only good for say 10 days, make the entry fee be cheap and basically give anybody the chance to have a vendor. After the 10 days is up, no extension. Also, any winners cannot sell or transfer those spots/vendors to another player.

Instead, just like half the housing plots, these vendors will go to the powergamers.

I'm ready to see a full-blown auction house at this point. The Powergamers/Luna types would just flip out and probably hold their breaths and threaten to cancel their numerous accounts if that happened.

 

[Cirno]

Sorry I guess I should of been clearer. I don't understand how it's going to be a SIGNIFICANT gold sink. I mean what's going to happen? All the billionaires are going to bid 5 million a week per vendor to sell their recall scrolls?

Why would they even bother when they'll own the housing plots instead?

This is actually one of the best gold sinks that has been designed for the game.
In the past, they have been primarily a highly expensive item, the first of which I think was the taxidermy kits (back when 50k was a lot of money). The problem is that they only last as long as the market for them does, which in a lot of cases isn't very long.
What these market vendors do is form a steady flow of gold out of the economy, since they have to be renewed through bidding periodically, which is likely to be something that continues for as long as UO does (if the vendors are grouped in one place, it becomes a secondary trading nexus)

If they are popular, then the big traders will bid high on them, increasing the flow of gold out of the economy, thereby making them a more effective sink.
If they are not popular, then the smaller traders will be able to afford a vendor in a location that will likely still be prime.
Which ever way it goes, there are benefits.

There is no quick fix to the economy, and by trying to force one you risk making an unsustainable gold sink which ends up largely ignored (you could consider the Britannian Ship to be an example of that)

 

[Cirno]

Well, basically the same thing would happen to any efforts like that as happened to the independents over the last years. Some of whom were part of smaller centers of trade at crossroads, large clearings, the edges and outskirts of towns. The big guys buy up whatever they have for good prices and resell them at higher prices in Luna. This left, and would leave, these smaller groups without a steady base of buyers because, well, buyers usually find empty vendors there and go to Luna anyways.

No, unless the small guys can steadily produce and sell, without having to compete on a scale that's only fit for the extreme powergamers, they simply can't establish a business and steady customers.

If the little guys worked together in a group, they would have more manpower than the big guys who were playing solo.

Although, I do agree, reselling is a problem. In fact, I think it is the main problem facing small traders, or at least those that aim for customer service over profit.
Reselling exists in all MMOs, that have trade mechanics that don't prevent it. Would you, personally, say that reselling is something that should be restricted? Just out of personal curiosity.

 

[Nexus]

It also means they'll easily go to the rich Luna vendors/powergamers

I have to object to that comment! I have a luna house, I'm not a Rich Power gamer, out of the little over a dozen vendors set up at my place, not a single one is owned by myself, and none of them charges the person who currently rents it. Some of us, granted it's a minority, who own houses in Luna are actually trying to make them a place for those without the luxury of a Luna house to be able to compete without having to pay 25-50k a week to sell repair deeds for 100gp each, or that nifty arty they got lucky to obtain at a spawn or in the abyss.


It's not like I can't make a profit on my house, I've been offered between 500 and 700 million for it at various times, but I refused. I like it's general use at the moment the way it is. If the Magincia Bazaar hurts my houses value as a trade center, so be it. But if ,with the way it looks like they are implementing, it becomes something only some people will have the luxury to make use of then even better. Folks will still get free rentals at my house, and Luna will still be a credible location for trade. Now granted I only lease out spots to guild and alliance members, but hey on Chessy we've got numerous allies totaling up over 450 members, though I do let some of their non-alliance friends rent as well, I had to draw a limit somewhere, and honestly with only 44 spots that's only 1 for every 9.x characters. What annoys me though is that I only have 15 spots taken, I try to get the word out but most folks refuse to take me up on the offer, I know several who rent at an alliance mates house.

 

[Woodsman]

I have to object to that comment! I have a luna house, I'm not a Rich Power gamer, out of the little over a dozen vendors set up at my place, not a single one is owned by myself, and none of them charges the person who currently rents it. Some of us, granted it's a minority, who own houses in Luna are actually trying to make them a place for those without the luxury of a Luna house to be able to compete without having to pay 25-50k a week to sell repair deeds for 100gp each, or that nifty arty they got lucky to obtain at a spawn or in the abyss.

Then you don't fall into that group of people I was talking about.

It's not like I can't make a profit on my house, I've been offered between 500 and 700 million for it at various times, but I refused.

The ones offering you that amount are the ones I'm talking about.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Well, basically the same thing would happen to any efforts like that as happened to the independents over the last years. Some of whom were part of smaller centers of trade at crossroads, large clearings, the edges and outskirts of towns. The big guys buy up whatever they have for good prices and resell them at higher prices in Luna. This left, and would leave, these smaller groups without a steady base of buyers because, well, buyers usually find empty vendors there and go to Luna anyways.

No, unless the small guys can steadily produce and sell, without having to compete on a scale that's only fit for the extreme powergamers, they simply can't establish a business and steady customers.

If the little guys worked together in a group, they would have more manpower than the big guys who were playing solo.

Although, I do agree, reselling is a problem. In fact, I think it is the main problem facing small traders, or at least those that aim for customer service over profit.
Reselling exists in all MMOs, that have trade mechanics that don't prevent it. Would you, personally, say that reselling is something that should be restricted? Just out of personal curiosity.

No, I wouldn't restrict it. That goes against the idea of a "worldly" game, against "realistic", against freedom of actions, etc. It's also a core part of economic systems.
The problem, as I said earlier, is at the core of it all. That's where it needs fixed. Anything else is just sweeping the dust around.

 

[popps]

This is actually one of the best gold sinks that has been designed for the game.

I am not sure at only 10,000 gps per ticket.

It takes 100 tickets to make up for 1 million gps and some players have billions of gps....

Besides, it is not like one can buy tens of thousands of tickets since they do count as items and holding so many tickets would need a lot of extra storage space availble.

To make it up for 100 millions, for example, which would only drop down a player's wealth from 1 billion to 900 millions, a player would need to buy 10,000 tickets.

I can imagine storing those many tickets....

I do not think this lottery can really work as a gold sink. Sure, it will take off circulation "some" gold but compared to the gold that exists already, it is a very minor thing, IMHO.

 

[popps]

Instead, just like half the housing plots, these vendors will go to the powergamers.

That is what I think also, powergamers or very rich players who have no problem in spending millions of gold to buy many tickets to increase their chances are those who most likely will get the new plots in Magincia.

I would have much preferred a different system to this type of lottery.

A system that took all active accounts that logged into Ultima Online in the past 3 months, for example, taking into account the shard played the most by that account in that given time. One account could only be eligible to participate into 1 shard drawing, the shard played the most in the past 3 months.

Separate the eligible accounts per shard and make a random drawing among them, shard by shard, to declare the winners on each shard and then send an e-mail and an in-game message to notify them of their plot victory.

At that point, the player will have the 30 days to place and if they did not, the plot would be up for free placing.

I would have preferred a system similar to this, out of the control of players to avoid that powergamers or players with most gold could have had more chances than other players.

 

[Cirno]

I am not sure at only 10,000 gps per ticket.

It takes 100 tickets to make up for 1 million gps and some players have billions of gps....

Besides, it is not like one can buy tens of thousands of tickets since they do count as items and holding so many tickets would need a lot of extra storage space availble.

To make it up for 100 millions, for example, which would only drop down a player's wealth from 1 billion to 900 millions, a player would need to buy 10,000 tickets.

I can imagine storing those many tickets....

I do not think this lottery can really work as a gold sink. Sure, it will take off circulation "some" gold but compared to the gold that exists already, it is a very minor thing, IMHO.

It appears that you have taken my comments as referring to the lottery, when they were really in reference to the vendor bidding system.

 

[Cirno]

No, I wouldn't restrict it. That goes against the idea of a "worldly" game, against "realistic", against freedom of actions, etc. It's also a core part of economic systems.
The problem, as I said earlier, is at the core of it all. That's where it needs fixed. Anything else is just sweeping the dust around.

I couldn't find a part where you explicitly stated it, but I assume that by the core problem you are referring to the game becoming more itemised.
I don't disagree that it may be a contributing factor, but I think I do disagree that in another world where AoS (widely taken to be the turning point of itemisation) hadn't happened we were not be in a very similar boat.
Even with less items in the game, there would still be market for what items there were, and since the trading mechanics have hardly changed since the introduction of vendors, reselling would still become an issue. Only there would be less niches in the market that could potentially be taken advantage of by the smaller traders, away from the resellers' interests.
Also, as an academic note, would not a lack of variety of items to trade (compared to current days) be detracting from the "worldly" experience or sense of freedom for those that play to trade?

 

[Trebr Drab]

Also, as an academic note, would not a lack of variety of items to trade (compared to current days) be detracting from the "worldly" experience or sense of freedom for those that play to trade?

You want items in numbers. That makes a game more interesting. But not in power. More abilities, but not more power. At least, power in the form of straight up combat. Of course, any new abilities is going to make a character more powerful in ability. As long is it's not too much in the ways of combat victory, and doesn't simply leave those without these items far behind.

I think a game can add sideways abilities in the form of healings, stealth, escape, shape changing, statues as pets, things like that. many could be made by players, at costs of ingredients similar to Imbuing has now.

Unfortunately, UO has already gone down this path. And some existing players have been very much against taking it away now, from my past experiences talking about it.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Spoiler

Since the gargoyle separatists have been introduced in the Abyss, I have wondered aloud if they were a setup for the next scenario, after the conclusion of In the Shadow of Virtue. These lines of text suggest to me that I was right. It could be a good event.

-Galen's player

 

[Cirno]

You want items in numbers. That makes a game more interesting. But not in power. More abilities, but not more power. At least, power in the form of straight up combat. Of course, any new abilities is going to make a character more powerful in ability. As long is it's not too much in the ways of combat victory, and doesn't simply leave those without these items far behind.

I think a game can add sideways abilities in the form of healings, stealth, escape, shape changing, statues as pets, things like that. many could be made by players, at costs of ingredients similar to Imbuing has now.

Unfortunately, UO has already gone down this path. And some existing players have been very much against taking it away now, from my past experiences talking about it.

That's a good post
You've clearly not settled for "I don't like this" and put a lot of thought into it.

Although there is a limit to how far you can go sideways, while avoiding significant escalation of power, I find myself agreeing that it's mostly a better direction to go for a world-type game than ever increasing power.

 

[Trebr Drab]

You want items in numbers. That makes a game more interesting. But not in power. More abilities, but not more power. At least, power in the form of straight up combat. Of course, any new abilities is going to make a character more powerful in ability. As long is it's not too much in the ways of combat victory, and doesn't simply leave those without these items far behind.

I think a game can add sideways abilities in the form of healings, stealth, escape, shape changing, statues as pets, things like that. many could be made by players, at costs of ingredients similar to Imbuing has now.

Unfortunately, UO has already gone down this path. And some existing players have been very much against taking it away now, from my past experiences talking about it.

That's a good post
You've clearly not settled for "I don't like this" and put a lot of thought into it.

Although there is a limit to how far you can go sideways, while avoiding significant escalation of power, I find myself agreeing that it's mostly a better direction to go for a world-type game than ever increasing power.

Well, be that as it may, they went beyond it and I have trouble finding any fun here. And certainly nothing interesting that isn't just speculation without substance. The game is for heavy powergamers. Let them have it.

 

[Cirno]

Well, be that as it may, they went beyond it and I have trouble finding any fun here. And certainly nothing interesting that isn't just speculation without substance. The game is for heavy powergamers. Let them have it.

Everything is speculation until it is proven.
I have personally enjoyed this discussion with you, and I certainly hope it hasn't been a chore for you.

Perhaps there is a place for you in a technical anachronism.
If I may assume from your position that you lean towards RP, then maybe you would enjoy the RP community on Europa. The escalation has little meaning to it, since for the purposes of inter-guild PvP, equipment is largely limited to GM equipment (and variably for PvM).
Although it would not fix everything for you, it may have enough of a taste of what you seek to keep the game alive for you.
The downside is, of course, that it is in Europe. We spell things funny, and live in the future, so the busiest time for the community is late evenings GMT.

 

[Bazer]

Brewings gana be fun make my own brew. Not really sure how well pet brokers are gana be, at least itll be a little easier to sell pets.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I can't help wondering how much of this speculation is going to turn out to be totally wrong when we get the actual publish notes instead of guesswork based on text strings.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Well, be that as it may, they went beyond it and I have trouble finding any fun here. And certainly nothing interesting that isn't just speculation without substance. The game is for heavy powergamers. Let them have it.

Everything is speculation until it is proven.
I have personally enjoyed this discussion with you, and I certainly hope it hasn't been a chore for you.

Perhaps there is a place for you in a technical anachronism.
If I may assume from your position that you lean towards RP, then maybe you would enjoy the RP community on Europa. The escalation has little meaning to it, since for the purposes of inter-guild PvP, equipment is largely limited to GM equipment (and variably for PvM).
Although it would not fix everything for you, it may have enough of a taste of what you seek to keep the game alive for you.
The downside is, of course, that it is in Europe. We spell things funny, and live in the future, so the busiest time for the community is late evenings GMT.

You Europeans have a charm all your own. But the lag is too much for me.

I have a problem with making your own rules. We also did that on GL, back in the days when colored ores first came out. That problem of power gaps was already showing itself.
Bold for the developers eyes.
You see, if you make your own rules, you are no longer playing the game. You are making your own game within the game. And I want my game to be made for me, not to allow me to use it to make my own. It lacks "officialness" and it separates me from the rest of the game. In my own little world, with a few others. I just don't like it.

As far as proving speculation, there seems to be none of that in this game. For as deep as the Ultima lore is, it's only a backdrop in UO for the storylines.
And for the mysteries in UO, the 3-4-1-5 in Covetous, the disappearing southern pillars, the crumbling floor tiles that you can drop items into but not retrieve, the levers and Pegasus statue in Deceit, the runes, etc., I've tried and found nothing. Same as everyone else. These games should be chock full of such mysteries, with answers ranging from fairly easy to very difficult. And there should be meaning to them. If everything can't be used by everyone, they don't want to do it, and thus goes deeper meaning and interesting mystery out the window.

Ahh, well, I guess I expect too much. But maybe I'll wait around in this game that I can't "win" at. With a mouth full of curses for game developers who are puppets for the hardcore grind fanatics. Or maybe one and the same. It makes little difference.

 

[Cogniac]

I can't help wondering how much of this speculation is going to turn out to be totally wrong when we get the actual publish notes instead of guesswork based on text strings.

This would be slightly less of a problem if the current community people could figure anything out about Publishes and Client Patches. Example: Publish 69.7.1 contains a cliloc fix...except the clilocs are in the client, not on the server. So either the person who wrote the news item doesn't know the difference between a Server Publish and a Client Patch, or they screwed up the details and 69.7.1 doesn't actually have anything to do with what they posted in the news item.