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Classic shard.

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dum3886

Guest
I'd just like to say thanks to all of those spending their time trying to work out the perfect stats for a classic shard in which every1 would be happy with. If i had the time i would contribute but i am just too busy atm....

I'll def reactivate my acct when/if it is created... also i'm wondering as i did mention this before... how many shards will there be bcz if there is only like 1 shard in EU or in USA>. it will really suck :(... well for me haha
 
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
Let me ask, and this isn't a literal question, how mant players in UO as a whole are asking for a classic shard? This thread has, some 500 respnses but alot are by the same people.
I don't think there is any way to accurately gauge that. I have seen people claim that no one would play a classic shard, I have seen people claim that thousands and thousands would...

...but at the end of the day, the only thing you have to go on is supposition and evidence based on 'the buzz' around the 'net.

And there is some buzz going on...
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
Just posting to say that I haven't played this game in about 5 years. I heard about the real possibility of a classic shard so decided to come check it out. I would definitely reactivate my account if they did this.
Thanks for coming back to show your support, we need people to speak up.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
I'd just like to say thanks to all of those spending their time trying to work out the perfect stats for a classic shard in which every1 would be happy with. If i had the time i would contribute but i am just too busy atm....

I'll def reactivate my acct when/if it is created... also i'm wondering as i did mention this before... how many shards will there be bcz if there is only like 1 shard in EU or in USA>. it will really suck :(... well for me haha
Heh, I agree. I'm from Australia and my lag situation on US/EU shards is simply unplayable. I dont understand why the lag for me is so bad on EA run shards cos tbh I dont lag badly on some US player run shards.

I'm almost certain it will just be a US shard and I wont actually be able to play it and be competative... Which annoys me but I'll still spend as much time as it takes here to help everyone else get the shard they diserve, even if I wont be able to play it :(
 
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
Something for everyone outside the US to consider:

Once a Classic Shard exists, taking a server birth snapshot of it and putting it up on a European, Asian, or West Coast/East Coast US server would be no problem. It's the actual creation of it in the first place that will cause so much work for the devs.

So if they do one, and there is overwhelming demand, more could follow. I don't think we'll ever see a revert of the old shards or anything like that...but I think there is a strong possibility that if a Classic Shard caught on, that contracture could take place, merging existing shards, and replacing them with Classic Shards.

I wouldn't bet on that happening...but just in case the demand was high enough, it is possible to do without much additional effort.
 

Guido_LS

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I could be wrong, but I think the purpose would be to attract people who don't play anymore, not people who already play.
Not entirely. There are plenty of us that play now that would like for a classic server to come along - the biggest issues are what constitutes classic, and what would make it worthwhile for more than just 1 subset of players to find it worthwhile.

Yet another issue, and *some* would claim to be a larger one - it's the current player base that would actually be paying for the development, and not the people claiming they would come back.

That's why so many are calling for some basic compromise. It's just that there are some that will do any and everything they can to drown out that voice.
 

Uriah Heep

Grand Poobah
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Texas Justice system (you're in my house, you are grey to me)?
It used to be this way, unless you were friended.

My two cents? I would play, anything before AoS and runics and arties and stuff. Housing, I would prefer classic styles only, But if you insist on custom, at least leave those Gawd-Awful crystal house tiles off the menu rolleyes:

And you're right, let the tamers have as many pets as they can tame...cause when we kill one, its gone for good, and not back at us in 45 seconds.

I'm likin this thread :thumbup1:
:popcorn:
 
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
And you're right, let the tamers have as many pets as they can tame...cause when we kill one, its gone for good, and not back at us in 45 seconds.
As a compromise...how about no pet bonding, but 8 control slots? That allows mages to be more powerful, allows tamers to hunt with 2 dragons and a mare, but there is no bonding and no one has 3-5 WWs or dragons in tow?
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
Im happy with there being no slots as long as the old system where the more your controlling the less they listen comes back in. It was funny watching a tamer come at you with 6 drags, say all kill, then have 4 of them turn back on him cos they arnt happy.

and bonding is out.

One question, what would everyone be happy with in terms of who can own them? I remember when a tamer could trade high end pets to people with no taming that had the money to buy them. Personally didnt like the sytem but it existed.
 
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
Im happy with there being no slots as long as the old system where the more your controlling the less they listen comes back in. It was funny watching a tamer come at you with 6 drags, say all kill, then have 4 of them turn back on him cos they arnt happy.

and bonding is out.

One question, what would everyone be happy with in terms of who can own them? I remember when a tamer could trade high end pets to people with no taming that had the money to buy them. Personally didnt like the sytem but it existed.
I'd go with the Taming/Lore skill = control model personally, but I could live with it either way.
 
L

Longest Journey

Guest
Im happy with there being no slots as long as the old system where the more your controlling the less they listen comes back in. It was funny watching a tamer come at you with 6 drags, say all kill, then have 4 of them turn back on him cos they arnt happy.

and bonding is out.
Agreed.

One question, what would everyone be happy with in terms of who can own them? I remember when a tamer could trade high end pets to people with no taming that had the money to buy them. Personally didnt like the sytem but it existed.
They changed that towards the middle of T2A. They made animal lore manditory for controling the creatures. That way there wasnt any warriors walking around with a White Wyrm guard, unless they were a tamer themselves.
 
L

Longest Journey

Guest
Alright, since my last post was removed that listed the countermeasures to burglers, Ill list them again.

Step one, lock tables or other items down across the entrance of your house. This keeps people from getting close enough to your storage containers to access them.

Step two, use detect hidden every time you come in your house from the outside. If its used in your house, it will automaticall reveal anyone in your house who is hidden, regardless of how low your detect hidden is or how high their hiding is.

Step 3, hire a tinkerer to give you some trapped boxes to leave in your house to act as bait for burglers. Since its a private house and those burglers will be grey, they will count as no penalty kills.

If it was such a rampant problem and people couldnt learn those 3 basic steps that pretty much beat all, then they should have just upped the number of secure containers and left it at that.

The T2A housing system did work. You had to use the tools and skills provided to devise ways of keeping your house secure. If you didnt, you got robbed and there was no one to blame but yourself.
 
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Lord Patapon

Guest
Keeping the skills as hard to raise as they were could be good, too.
Remembering Carpentry ? Blacksmithing ? Damn.
When you GM'ed one of those, you knew you had gone through something.
This, and the fact that NOT having everyone running around with a smith on its account could be cool (ex: smithy offering services for tips at Brit forge ! This won't happen if Smithing is too easy, because everyone will have one.)

The same goes for Taming.
It's not a way to shoot on tamers, as I have one myself, but I really liked that pet market on Brit bank ... any time of the day, there were people here selling horses, drakes, dragons, frenzied ostards to those who could control them but couldn't yet tame them (as it took a hell of a lot of time to raise taming to an acceptable level; 85-95 or more)

T2A era is a lot about system and game mechanics... but we must not forget that the community feeling was what made it so special, after all.
In that direction, a few changes could be made, to insure those links between all players won't be broken (as they are, now ...)
Getting rid of the repair contracts might be a good thing, but Im sure there are people who likes them. (well, I like them, but they don't seem to fit in very well if we want an active crafting community !)

Just my 2cp !

Patap', happy to see this classic shard plan raised to the place it deserves. (the top ! \o/)
 

Kaleb

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
This is the best Classic Server thread since AOS, a lot of middle ground has been reached my most, And I really think for the first time ever there is a consensus of a core Ruleset. as of this time this thread has been viewed over 5k times. I believe there are many former players on the outside taking great interest. I seen a guy get hauled off by a GM on the PRS, fel only, hybrid type server I play for spamming "OSI considering opening a classic server! WooT!!" the other night, based on his gear he wasn't a new character.

Next Step would be for Mythic to open up a focus group to really iron out what will be on or off the server.

I want to thank Everyone, cept a small few(you know who you are) for showing your maturity level on this subject for once.

Keep ideas Flowing, but make sure its not going to exclude playstyles, or become some new system/code that hasn't already been in game before. We want to keep it somewhat simple for the devs to increase the chances of them taking on this project.

Remember if some kid/hobbyist in his moms basement, with no college in programming can run a successful "classic type" server then our devs should be able to do it blindfolded with one hand :p.

Also I wouldn't want to leave out the very real option mythic can do(from first page of business the EA way) and just buy the source code from a popular Player run "classic server", Save money on programming costs with only minor tweaks and adjustments needed.
 
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
Here's the thing with the whole 'We don't have the code anymore' thing...


...it's probably a lie.

No code shop I have ever seen works without backups. You generally check out code, work on it, doc it, and check it back in the repository...which means generally you have local and global backups of everything.

Taking the code from a free shard wouldn't work. UO servers are set up differently than any of the emulators out there. UO servers are run across multiple servers (see server boundaries)...free shards are not. I have not seen any emulator than performs this function. If someone knows of one, PM me with it, because I would really like to check it out.

Creatures and items in the game are basically just scripts that the server code calls on. I'd be shocked if every single script for every single item type and creature type are not backed up somewhere up to a certain point.

This is why I advocate for not incorporating content that came after AoS (besides the fact that its for the most part awful). The devs could find an old snapshot of the server, blank it, decide which creatures to use and which items, find and tweak (not recreate) the scripts for those items and creatures, and birth a shard. Whereas, if they wanted to put in post-AoS creatures and items, they would need to write entirely new scripts for them. That's going to be time consuming and costly in the form of labor dollars.

If what they said is true, and they irresponsibly dumped every single backup they ever had from every single shard, and they dumped all of the backups for all of the scripts as well, then this would be a from the ground up project. I just don't buy that...but if it is the case, then I would think that our hopes of actually seeing a Classic Shard are pretty slim.

The other approach would be to take the existing server code, and alter it to make it essentially emulate old school UO. The AoS numbers would still be present, you just wouldn't see them in the UI. Anything but the old items, etc. would be removed and replaced with other item IDs. I am not sure how they could pull this off with certain things, like changing the way skills and spells work, but as I understand it, these are basically scripts as well...so it shouldn't be too difficult to deal with.

I think the best thing for us, as the Classic Shard community to do is to agree that we would take a shard that was minimalistic to help ensure that the work load on the devs is not herculean.
 
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Nihilus

Guest
I'd just like to throw my support in here for a Classic Pre-AOS UO shard. I started playing in 97 and it's a dream of mine to get a chance to relive it.

UO Pre-Trammel is still IMHO the best MMORPG experience ever conceived and its a travesty that with 13 years of advancement, it's mechanics, features and gameplay have still to be bettered. It's not just rose-tinted spectacles, I've played the free-shards running today and it's as great as ever. The problem with them is that they are non-official and have limited players. I won't commit so much to a game that could be wiped or stopped at any point and so I wait for an official Classic shard.

I could go on ALL day about what made the classic ruleset so entralling and effortlessly fun. I'm sure most will have experiences of their own to recall. But for the naysayers, look at the "remake UO" craze going on these days with games like Mortal Online, or Darkfall. Non of which have achieved it (MO looks unlikely ever too). There has to be a reason why UO classic has this Holy Grail persona about it, and it seems modern MMO devs are trying to rediscover it. Whether it can be remade and modernised is debatable, but if we can get the classic game back certainly I'd be subbéd in a heartbeat and many more to be sure, as long as it was advertised well on places like MMORPG etc. The atmosphere of old could be returned and it's people, even the roleplaying would come i'm confident.

I would hate to think that the closest i'd get to playing an official classic UO shard with a healthy population would only be by remembering the good old days.

+1 life long sub to an official pre-AOS and Trammel shard (And my mate would too).
 
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Azaroth Dragon

Guest
Morgana, what you're saying about backups and code and so on is true - but it's been almost 14 years now. For that reason alone I'd assume it's entirely possible that it may end up being a "ground up" project.

One point I could make, however, is that I was engaging in these discussions back in 2000/2001... and they said then they didn't have the code, too. That can't possibly have been true.

But if they really don't, then you're right. I doubt you'll ever see an EA classic shard. Which is too bad. But I assume that it'd be too much work to propose for something that'd invariably collapse in on itself.
 
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
Morgana, what you're saying about backups and code and so on is true - but it's been almost 14 years now. For that reason alone I'd assume it's entirely possible that it may end up being a "ground up" project.

One point I could make, however, is that I was engaging in these discussions back in 2000/2001... and they said then they didn't have the code, too. That can't possibly have been true.

But if they really don't, then you're right. I doubt you'll ever see an EA classic shard. Which is too bad. But I assume that it'd be too much work to propose for something that'd invariably collapse in on itself.
2 points:

1 - In 2000/2001...they had to have backups of the code...because it was the current code they had live on the shards! If they told you they didn't have it, that had to be a lie...or the UO dev team was the worst coding group of all time.

2 - Yes, a Classic Shard will invariably "collapse in on itself"...but so will all the other shards...and all the other MMO games on the market...eventually.
 

Sneaky Que

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Heh, I agree. I'm from Australia and my lag situation on US/EU shards is simply unplayable. I dont understand why the lag for me is so bad on EA run shards cos tbh I dont lag badly on some US player run shards.

I'm almost certain it will just be a US shard and I wont actually be able to play it and be competative... Which annoys me but I'll still spend as much time as it takes here to help everyone else get the shard they diserve, even if I wont be able to play it :(
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=185879

Once this is done we (Aussies) should be able to play well on US shards.
 
A

Azaroth Dragon

Guest
2 points:

1 - In 2000/2001...they had to have backups of the code...because it was the current code they had live on the shards! If they told you they didn't have it, that had to be a lie...or the UO dev team was the worst coding group of all time.

2 - Yes, a Classic Shard will invariably "collapse in on itself"...but so will all the other shards...and all the other MMO games on the market...eventually.
Well, no. 2000/2001 was UO:R, so if we're talking about T2A then that's a bit different.

Also, a classic shard collapses a little different than most other games. There are a lot of pretty special situations that need to be considered.
 
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
Well, no. 2000/2001 was UO:R, so if we're talking about T2A then that's a bit different.
I thought that all UO:R brought, from a server perspective, was a change in the map file (world file) and flags for Tram/Fel rulesets...

...AoS changed the game mechanics entirely.

I am not necessarily saying that they had server snapshots from T2A (even though I imagine they would), but the core code was not so different that it could not be easily reverted back then.
 
A

Azaroth Dragon

Guest
Oh, absolutely. It would have been fairly trivial to do back then. I remember them saying what a mess the code was and so on, but really, there weren't THAT many changes to be made if they wanted to revert. It was just a matter of not wanting to do it most likely.

Things are a little different now, obviously. Trying to revert would be pretty difficult. Plus, if things weren't bang on... you'd have a lot of detractors (Free shards have done it! Etc). So unless they DO have those backups... I don't think it'll ever happen. Which sucks.
 
L

Longest Journey

Guest
There was one difference between Reniassance and The Second Age: Trammel.

Remove Trammel from Reniassance and you get The Second Age.

But, lets assume they dont have a back up of Reniassance or The Second Age. What else would work? Well, they could always use 3rd Dawn. All that did was introduce the 3D client and Ilshenar. Take those out along with Trammel, and youve pretty much got T2A.

However, if there is any pre-AOS era they have any change of still retaining a copy of, its LBR. Use the early part of LBR as a basis, strip away Ilsh and Tram, lose the Todd McFarlane steam punk garbage, and there you go, its pretty darn close to T2A. All they'd need to do is make some adjustments here and there, add in some old rules from T2A, remove factions and revive Chaos/Order guilds, and you'd be reasonably close.

Morgana LeFey (PoV) said:
Taking the code from a free shard wouldn't work. UO servers are set up differently than any of the emulators out there. UO servers are run across multiple servers (see server boundaries)...free shards are not. I have not seen any emulator than performs this function. If someone knows of one, PM me with it, because I would really like to check it out.
Well, where did those free shard guys get their original coding from? Remember, they didnt build their servers from scratch, they used original UO code from OSI's T2A and reverse engineered it to accomodate their single server emulations.

So, what the EA guys should be asking is, where did the free server guys get their base coding from?

If the answer is as simple as a T2A disk, Ill gladly mail mine, along with my old strategy guide, to the EA/Mythic department with the longest letter of encouragement and thanks I could think of, along with a box of my wife's chocolate chip cookies.
 
L

Longest Journey

Guest
Two issues Id like addressed:

Vet rewards and crafting upgrades for the classic server.


Now, when I say vet rewards, Im talking about the small stuff. The dye tubs, the monster statues, and the banners.

I had an idea not too long ago that I believe will fix the issue of vet rewards: Dont make them vet rewards at all....

Heres how:

Make things like the leather, black, and special dye tubs purchaseable off of NPCs or as drops from SOSs, treasure maps, or as loot in chests in dungeons.

Things like the banners and other deco items, make them craftable by tailors or carpenters.

The monster statues, again, make them rare drops on the monster they represent. Skeleton statue drops off of Skeleton monsters, Dragon Statue drop off of Dragons and Ancient Wyrms, Ogre statue drop off of Ogres and Ogre Lords, etc etc etc.

Stuff like the brazers should be made by either tinkerers or blacksmiths

And the items should be limited to the deco items only. None of the blessed armored clothing or the etheral mounts.

As for the crafting upgrades, these are more of logical requests that were made years ago, but didnt come in until much later.

The upgrades are as follows:

-Tailors will be able to make bone armor as well as repair it along with leather armor

-Bow crafters will be able to repair bows

-Carpenters will be able to craft all staff weapons as well as clubs and repair them along with wooden shields
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
Two issues Id like addressed:

Vet rewards and crafting upgrades for the classic server.


Now, when I say vet rewards, Im talking about the small stuff. The dye tubs, the monster statues, and the banners.

I had an idea not too long ago that I believe will fix the issue of vet rewards: Dont make them vet rewards at all....

Heres how:

Make things like the leather, black, and special dye tubs purchaseable off of NPCs or as drops from SOSs, treasure maps, or as loot in chests in dungeons.

Things like the banners and other deco items, make them craftable by tailors or carpenters.

The monster statues, again, make them rare drops on the monster they represent. Skeleton statue drops off of Skeleton monsters, Dragon Statue drop off of Dragons and Ancient Wyrms, Ogre statue drop off of Ogres and Ogre Lords, etc etc etc.

Stuff like the brazers should be made by either tinkerers or blacksmiths

And the items should be limited to the deco items only. None of the blessed armored clothing or the etheral mounts.
I like the idea of monster statues being a rare drop off their represented mob... Black dye tubs and the like I'd rather see something different, like introduced at a later date in something like clean up britannia or some other kind of system. I know a free shard where they have a regular even system with different things such as pvp tournaments, or big monster bashing raids where you can earn trophies. Each trophy is worth a certain amount of points... If u save your points you can buy things like black dye tubs.

But anyway put something like a trophy system in I guess were turning it into our own little custom shard so it probably shouldn't happen... Just something I like and felt like sharing :/

One other thing I like how the black dye tubs are the oldschool style ones you have to be careful with them cos anyone can change the color of them. The reason I like it like that is cos then everyone keeps them tucked away and it makes it more worthwhile getting your own cos they arnt publicly available.
 

Harlequin

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'd refrained from participating on the recent spate of classic shard threads so far. Well here goes... First, to address a couple of points -

1) Why should existing players pay for a classic server for all these quitters?
a - Think of it this way, we cannot sustain UO indefinitely with a dwindling player base drawn away by the 100 new MMOs released annually. We always need new content to keep an MMO going and interests alive.
b - New content/expansions take alot of resources and are expensive. However, a much more cost effective way at the moment to boost player interest is to tap into the pool of players that have left and those who are playing play-run shards.
c - If we can draw these players back permanently, this will be a very positive step in keeping the game going.



2) Server backup lost resulting in the devs having to work up from the ground.
a - Not sure what was lost, compiled codes? Source codes? Documentation? Doesn't matter. No need to re-invent the wheel. Do what others have been doing to save R&D costs for decades - reverse engineer. Since it's your own product, no legal issues.
b - Simplest way is to disable content like how they deal with the account system. Every server contains codes for everything, just add a toggle/flag to disable content.
Grossly simplified example - Add an extra attribute called "AR" to Platemail_breastplate to all the existing attribute. If "Classic_server = 1" then use "AR" instead of the post AOS attributes. For even more modular flexibility, have flags like "AOS_enabled", "No_Tram", "No_Fel", "No_Ish", "No_Tokuno", "No_customizable_houses", "No_insurance" in addition to "classic_server". After the initial work to convert the existing codes, servers are then fully customizable by just changing the flags. They can quickly churn out servers of whatever rulesets they want anywhere.



3) Extra maintenance costs resulting from maintaining a second radically set of codes.
a - Using the method above will likely add a little to the development time for new publishes, but it will be 1 uniform set of codes to maintain.
b - Bug fixes will be rolled out to all servers.
 

Harlequin

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Other thoughts,

Classic shard to me means pre-AOS and no Tram. But there are other things that need to be determined like house lockdowns, pet control slots etc.

Protoyping is highly recommended to test out the acceptance, judge what players actually want etc.

A crazy idea, what if all players start out as red on the classic shard?
 
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Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
Well, where did those free shard guys get their original coding from? Remember, they didnt build their servers from scratch, they used original UO code from OSI's T2A and reverse engineered it to accomodate their single server emulations.
Okay, I know we are in dangerous territory here by discussing Free Shards in this much detail, but here's how they work:

They didn't reverse engineer from the SERVER code...they did it using the CLIENT.

The Client is the game that you install on your system. It sends and receives what equates to numerical information back and forth to the server. The client inturprets the information coming from the server, and essentially translates that into on screen information (the UI). That's a basic explanation...

So what the first creators of emulators did, was redirect the client to a different server address, and sent it data that it could understand. From there, they just needed to write a framework (or use an existing one) that could be translated into information that the client could "understand".

The most common emulator out there is written in Microsoft dot Net Framework (or some form of C#). The original UO server code is not. The only thing emulators and the original server code have in common is that they have both been set up to send the proper commands and information to the client. Beyond that, there is little similarity between the two of them.
 
K

Keep Hope Alive

Guest
There are a lot of great discussions here about our "Classic Shard". Six months ago or one year ago, there was discussion, but mostly a lot of nay-sayers claiming that we were beating a donkey to death

:bdh:

I see a whole lot of new excitement and talk. How do we get this information to somebody who knows somebody within the ranks of UO game development? Let's go camp out on the White House lawn until somebody comes out and talks to us.

I have not paid for or played UO in almost 2 years. I'm waiting for it to be fixed first.

Keep Hope Alive
 
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georgemarvin2001

Guest
@Morgana: Programmers are packrats by nature. I don't believe for a minute that they really have lost the original server birth backups, and the backup of every single major publish before AOS. I haven't written a line of code in 10 years, but I've still got backups of stuff I did in college. The first time you have trouble because somebody does something you didn't expect, or runs a program at the same time that causes a crash, or you just realize that you're the only person in the whole world who thought all those neat changes were really great, and you don't have that original code to put up til you can get it fixed, you learn to always keep a backup of the backup of your backup. With UO's history of having dozens of bugs pop up with every patch, and even more in a major publish, I can't imagine them just blithely deleting the old code. I especially can't believe that they would delete something as important and historic as the original server birth snapshot.

Yeah, I checked out the free shard server side code. It's open source. The server side code for most of the free shards was written by a young man, in the back of a bar in his spare time after work, before he went to Iraq to serve in the Marines. It's just C# subroutines, combined with loot tables compiled by using a program that collected all of the data from the actual loot from several thousand monster corpses of every type to get the probability distribution, and combat tables based on both actual damages for every weapon type, and the combat data that the devs of that era released. The data may be off by .001%, but that's not enough to matter to the average player.

It's actually probably a lot better design than the tens of millions of lines of interdependent code in the original UO programming. Smaller is faster and consumes less resources. It's also easier to debug. Modularity and the fact that it was written by one person, not hundreds, so it is internally consistent, make it a lot less susceptible to bugs in the first place, and a LOT easier to introduce new content and change major properties of the game. Instead of spending dozens of man-hours figuring out whether your subroutine will clash with anything else in that mountain of interdependent code, you just add a line of code to reference your subroutine and you're done, providing that your new system is internally consistent and error-free. For instance, one free shard had really highly developed tree harvesting system. There is a harvesting tool to choose between collecting fruit, bark, leaves or logs. An oak tree always yielded oak logs. A cypress tree yielded cypress wood. An apple tree yielded apples. If you cut it down, it yielded apple logs. Once an apple tree was cut down for logs, you couldn't harvest any more apples from it until it had time to grow back. It made sense, a lot more than UO's RNG determining what kind of wood you get. It was a complex system that took a matter of days to develop, whereas simply adding an RNG to the trees on production shards took literally years. The fact is that the complexity and interdependence of the original UO code is one of the major reasons why it is so hard to get even minor additions to the game, and most of the ones we do get are heavily dependent on the RNG, while some of the more ambitious free shards can change major systems in a matter of days, sometimes hours, without ever worrying about how many bugs they might be introducing, or whether it will break combat or do something really weird. And they seldom have to access the RNG; the changes can be both detailed and item-specific. All in all, I believe that the idea of a smaller, modular server-side code is one of the reasons why the free shards have proliferated so much, and no two are exactly alike.

And I think running an entire shard on one server is great.

The truth is that UO uses multiple servers for each shard because, in 1997, a single server didn't have the processing power to handle an entire shard with 500 players on it simultaneously. The best commercial connections couldn't handle much bandwidth, either. Having Felucca split up into multiple servers caused endless problems with both playability and bugs, including the notorious item dupes, but it was a necessity, given the technology of the day.

On the other hand, one free shard I checked out during the course of this discussion bragged that it was able to handle both 9,000 players logged in simultaneously AND a 15 gigabyte per second denial of service attack.

How large of a player base can a single modern server handle today? Most players will log on about an hour a day, on average. That means that a game with 9,000 players logged in will have an active player base of about 9,000x24=216,000. But games like UO that require utility accounts won't all be active. The majority, in fact, will be utility accounts for storage, utility characters, house holders, etc. so those accounts will seldom be logged in. In other words, that one server could probably handle a subscriber base of about a half-million accounts without ever exceeding to maximum capacity. But UO has literally dozens of servers per shard, with just a few thousand subscribers on any given shard, and populations on some of the less popular shards that may be less than 1,000, with less than 100 people online at any given time. It's a tremendous waste of resources, and increases their operating costs tenfold over the optimum levels. It's about like driving to work in a tractor trailer. It works, but it just isn't practical.

10 years ago, things were different. At UO's height, there may have been 10-20,000 players logged in at any given time, spread across 26 shards and hundreds of servers. Even with literally rooms full of servers that were top-of-the-line back then, in the publish 16 era, people could barely move and server crashes were common when just a couple hundred players were concentrated in one area of a server, at a champion spawn.

If they were writing the code for UO from scratch today, using current server capacity, they might have two or three servers per shard, but they certainly wouldn't have split Felucca into several server boundaries. More than likely, they would have adopted the one shard per server system that the free shards use.

Even if the UO devs somehow managed to lose everything, both programming languages and equipment have improved vastly over the last 13 years. They should just accept the challenge and redo the server side to take advantage of all the great new hardware, improved programming languages, and the vast increase in available bandwidth. We know that all of the combat damage tables and monster loot tables are open source, there for the taking. A kid was able to make a perfectly functional T2A server side from scratch in his spare time, so I don't think that it would be nearly the impossible task for an entire team of professional programmers that they make it out to be.

They just need to realize that we don't care what the server side code looks like, as long as gameplay is the same as it was back then. Whether it's tens of millions of lines of code written in a forgotten language, or a few brand-new C# subroutines, if it looks like T2A, and behaves like T2A, and plays like T2A, for all intents and purposes, it will be T2A.
 
G

georgemarvin2001

Guest
@Longest Journey: I don't think anybody here will refuse to play if they can't get vet rewards. Some of them would unbalance the game, and we can't trust the Devs to just keep them all deco. I would say just leave them out completely. Especially that 20 skill points and the 5 stat points, and the ethereals.

I'm all for the crafting improvements.

I don't want the current house security system, where there is an invisible force field around your home. I just want players to have enough lock downs that they don't have to deal with the mess that just having 1 secure and 25 lockdowns in a small house caused throughout T2A.

I'm all for letting containers in your house work just like they did during T2A, as long as they know that anything they don't lock down inside those containers in their house won't decay and doesn't count toward their storage limit, but it is fair game for thieves. Changing from 1 secure limited to 400 stones, and 25 lockdowns per small house, to 2 secures and 125 lockdowns, and removing the weight limits on the secures would pretty much eliminate the problem.

I don't mind a bit if people leave stuff lying around unsecured. A thief has to make a living, too. I just don't want everybody to be forced to do it.

As for the lag issue, I don't think it would affect most of us. We were all on dial-up back then, so small houses having as much junk in them as an 18x18 probably wouldn't produce lag today like it did back then. And servers can handle rendering a lot more items, a lot faster.

It would be good for the health of the shard if homeowners have a reasonable amount of lockdowns, can feel some sense of security, and don't plague the GMs with calls 24/7, whining about their valuables disappearing.

Yes, they were careless, or just didn't know any better. Or thought they were safe, because they didn't know what the rules really were, or lived out in the middle of nowhere. Or they were late for work or a date, and didn't take their normal measures. Or used the table trick, but left something too close, and didn't realize that the thief could reach it from the other side of the table. Or, as was usually the case, just thought locking their door was good enough, and didn't even think about a stealther just walking right in behind them.

A successful house thief does leave corpses scattered all over Brittania every day. At least half the people are going to catch him. But it just means a fast trip to the nearest healer. He's naked. He loses nothing.

He also manages to take peoples' most valuable possessions from the safety of their own homes, something that PKs can't do. Which generates calls to GMs and closed accounts, which is one of the things we want to avoid.
 
E

Evlar

Guest
Yup... that's what "safety wink" smileys are for ;)

Bit of tongue-in-cheeck "Picard" humour never hurt anyone... a bit like me at PvP really. :D
 
M

mmorpg.com

Guest
One great way for the developers to get ideas for a Classic Shard is to take a look at popular classic shards that are currently already being run.

One that I hear mentioned frequently is UO Second Age, which is supposed to be an accurate recreation of OSI's The Second Age based upon OSI development notes. Another, although not really classic, called Angel Island has implemented interesting ideas for how to effectively punish or discourage murderers, such as prison sentences.

If the mentioning of names is not allowed, feel free to delete them, the point is that there are already shards out there that have been operating for years, which the developers could essentially use as established test-beds and collect information and ideas from. Though I think a Classic Shard would be best served by being as authentic a reproduction as possible, with only bug and exploit fixes. If much is changed then it would not really be classic, and most players would probably be disappointed.
 

Derium of ls

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I don't think there is any way to accurately gauge that. I have seen people claim that no one would play a classic shard, I have seen people claim that thousands and thousands would...

...but at the end of the day, the only thing you have to go on is supposition and evidence based on 'the buzz' around the 'net.

And there is some buzz going on...

most free shards are based on pre-AOS items and most of their rules. Not to say names, but the one I play on (because it's classic!) has AT LEAST 700 people on 24/7. not bad for a player ran shard. ever since 2002 people have begged for a classic shard, but I guess EA just hates money?
 

Ahuaeyjnkxs

stranger diamond
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Alright... but every compromise will hurt the dynamism part, which will make it spin out of control once again. Can't say I haven't warned you ! I think lockdowns exept for deco is lalaland.

Time for me to leave, maybe one day someone will look back and think ; oh well maybe ahu had a great idea after all... and perhaps it will be too late to get it back , cause there is no hundred monkeys here, nor twelve.

There's just me.
 
L

Longest Journey

Guest
@Longest Journey: I don't think anybody here will refuse to play if they can't get vet rewards. Some of them would unbalance the game, and we can't trust the Devs to just keep them all deco. I would say just leave them out completely. Especially that 20 skill points and the 5 stat points, and the ethereals.
Well, if they are craftables and drops off of monsters and from SOS's and treasure chests, then they arent technically vet rewards anymore, just regular items from the game that players can get anytime.

That way, we dont have to worry about the extra +20 skill points or 5 stat points or ethereal mounts.

I'm all for the crafting improvements.
Thats good.

I don't want the current house security system, where there is an invisible force field around your home. I just want players to have enough lock downs that they don't have to deal with the mess that just having 1 secure and 25 lockdowns in a small house caused throughout T2A.

I'm all for letting containers in your house work just like they did during T2A, as long as they know that anything they don't lock down inside those containers in their house won't decay and doesn't count toward their storage limit, but it is fair game for thieves. Changing from 1 secure limited to 400 stones, and 25 lockdowns per small house, to 2 secures and 125 lockdowns, and removing the weight limits on the secures would pretty much eliminate the problem.

I don't mind a bit if people leave stuff lying around unsecured. A thief has to make a living, too. I just don't want everybody to be forced to do it.
Wait, remove the weight limit from secure containers or the item limit? because there were 2 limits on secure containers, the # of items and the weight.

As for the lag issue, I don't think it would affect most of us. We were all on dial-up back then, so small houses having as much junk in them as an 18x18 probably wouldn't produce lag today like it did back then. And servers can handle rendering a lot more items, a lot faster.
Small houses really didnt have that much junk lying around in them back then, if any junk at all. Mostly everyone kept everything in locked down chests along the back wallk of the house opposite the entrance and they had a loom, spinning wheel, small forge and an anvil in their house.

It would be good for the health of the shard if homeowners have a reasonable amount of lockdowns, can feel some sense of security, and don't plague the GMs with calls 24/7, whining about their valuables disappearing.
Sadly, the crying to GMs will happen. As long as the possibility exists for someone to get into someone else's house and swipe things, there will be complainers.

Its up to the GMs to learn to handle these people. Automated responses tend to work well.

Yes, they were careless, or just didn't know any better. Or thought they were safe, because they didn't know what the rules really were, or lived out in the middle of nowhere. Or they were late for work or a date, and didn't take their normal measures. Or used the table trick, but left something too close, and didn't realize that the thief could reach it from the other side of the table. Or, as was usually the case, just thought locking their door was good enough, and didn't even think about a stealther just walking right in behind them.
Then they lived and learned. Thats the way it went. People who complained should have done just that, lived and learned. But they wanted the game to protect their stuff for them, they wanted easy street.

A successful house thief does leave corpses scattered all over Brittania every day. At least half the people are going to catch him. But it just means a fast trip to the nearest healer. He's naked. He loses nothing.
Not necessarily. He does lose one thing, access to the house. And its back to square one. True they dont lose items, but they do lose progress on a target. And with a thief, progress is everything. Especially if they get banned after they get killed.

He also manages to take peoples' most valuable possessions from the safety of their own homes, something that PKs can't do. Which generates calls to GMs and closed accounts, which is one of the things we want to avoid.
Then its not an issue of game mechanics, its an issue of the maturity of the players. People whined both ways, whether stolen from by a theif or killed by a PK. The game mechanics were fine, its the players that were the problem. If people had just learned how to survive and adapt instead of crying to a GM everytime someone looked at them the wrong way, UO wouldnt have the problems it has to day, and it WOULD have a lot more subscriptions.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
Well, if they are craftables and drops off of monsters and from SOS's and treasure chests, then they arent technically vet rewards anymore, just regular items from the game that players can get anytime.
Love the idea of the deco statues/items being rare drops on certain monsters/sos' but not overly keen on making them craftables. Unless your just talking about the banners they can be craftable cos it would kinda fit for a tailor.
 
B

BloodstoneGL

Guest
To The Devs:

It is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

Just pick a Pre-AoS time frame and go with it.
 
L

Longest Journey

Guest
Love the idea of the deco statues/items being rare drops on certain monsters/sos' but not overly keen on making them craftables. Unless your just talking about the banners they can be craftable cos it would kinda fit for a tailor.
Its like this:

Stuff like the monster statues, those are rare drops off of their corosponding monsters, like 1 in 10,000 drops depending on the difficulty of the monster.

Dye tubs, like the black, leather and special, could be sold by NPC's at tailor shops, or could be fished up or be dug up in treasure chests from treasure maps or found in dungeon treasure chests.

Things like banners (large, small, chaos/order), braziers, standing candleabras, decorative wall shields, flaming skull statue be crafted by crafters.

Thats what I mean.
 
M

Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
To The Devs:

It is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

Just pick a Pre-AoS time frame and go with it.
I think it is important for the devs to get the feedback of those of us that will play on the shard. Go into any of the usual "I didn't get my item/I want this item exchange program added back to the game/I want some event where I can get some items" threads and mention a Classic Shard. You will have numerous regular posters in UHall that will moan and complain and go on and on about how stupid you are for wanting something other than what they want...

...those are NOT the people the devs need feedback from on this issue.

But when you start talking to someone about the old days...and they fondly remember pre-Ren and pre-AoS...those people need to have a say in any classic shard, because they (we) are the ones that will populated it.

The devs didn't bother to collect any feedback for AoS...they just did it. And for some, that was a great change...but for others of us, it was horrible.

This time, for once, if the devs will listen to the community, they might get it right!
 
E

Evlar

Guest
This time, for once, if the devs will listen to the community, they might get it right!
Speaking of which, I wonder if my "Ask The Devs" classic shard related question will get an "official" answer ;)

Wouldn't do this discussion any harm if one of them popped into this thread and commented. Do they think the ideas mentioned are good/bad? Is the concept something they've discussed more internally? Really, how technically simple/difficult would it be to get up and running?

:popcorn:
 
S

Sadrith Mora

Guest
I would like to make this my last post on this topic because i probably won't be playing much if at all on this shard if they do decide to make it. To me, that era now is just 'old-hat'... Been there and did it kind of thing, ya know? I started playing in Jan. '98, and have seen all of the changes and bug fixes since with most of them being good for the game for the most part, in my opinion.

I'm not saying it would be a bad idea. I have some fond memories of the past, but realize it can never be what it was again for me, at least. It was new and exciting then because the mystery was still intact, and discovering the lands and dungeons in the midst of pk's made it very challenging. But i think it was more about the people you experienced the mystery of the game with more than the gameplay itself, and i think that's what i miss the most...

I look back at UO differently today. The old mystery is gone, but i feel it's a better game overall now than it ever was. Stygian Abyss is a part of the reason, and i feel as long as they continue to listen to the players wants, UO will continue to grow, change, and improve for the better, for the majority.

With that said, i still think having a classic shard is a good idea especially with the state of MMO's today. For UO, i think the best possible classic shard would be to take the most controversial era (Sept. '97 - May 2000) and make it 'static'. Take all that was included up to the split and make that the classic shard, and make it as historical as possible so 5-10 yrs. from now any new player (or current) wanting to know what it was all about in the beginning can know by simply logging on the the shard.

I think it's also equally important to keep it as distinctly different from siege perilous as possible to help keep their community intact, and a viable option for those who may get tired of the early period, and want to move forward a bit for a change of scenery and gameplay.

I know this idea might not be popular with some, because people want different things like custom housing, for example, but i think it's the best overall solution for re-creating the classic era. Create it just before the split as historical as possible, and keep it static as a remembrance of what it used to be like back then for future players...

Thanks for reading...
 
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