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Beastial suits and pvp breakdown.
- Thread starter Vyal
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SugarSmacks
Guest
Do you mean the monsters cant dispel it?
As people goes for one they only do mass dispel i mean can you even dispel a deamon with dispel anymore? And mass dispel works 100% of the time.
Are you saying monsters need mass dispel instead of dispel?
though this point has been made before and you've just ignored it allow me to repeat, Do you think that evade should still have no timer, WOD archers should still be around, death striking archers should still be around, explosion pots shouldn't have a timer, that nether bolt shouldn't have been fixed, etc.?
If you think that these things shouldn't have been nerfed you're a lame-o who wants a one dimensional game where everyone uses and abuses the same stuff. UO is a sandbox it's supposed to be diverse.
yup, monsters can VERY rarely dispel RC w/ 120 myst 120 focus, it's actually resistant enough to actually tank magic monsters like the stuff in doom/peerless solo without having to recast every 5 secs. it's an oft-abused tactic (on siege at least) because MI causes monsters to ignore you, so you can literally run through peerless areas casting RC where you need it and not have to worry about a pet getting stuck on stuff (pets/summons attacking doesn't break MI)
EV's daemons, etc get dispelled almost 100% by hit dispel but for some reason RC is nearly immune to it, i guess by design as their resistance is boosted at 120/120, this makes RC actually better than a GD in many situations (you generally only have to recast as the RC times out, so plenty of time to regen mana & precast, since you won't be taking damage). Even mass dispel can take 2-3 shots for a full level RC.
dont forget...
- melee weapons having no cooldown on weapon switch (being able to essentially hit with 2 weapons at once)
- unlimited pet slots
- pets taming at full strength
- ranged weapons doing full deathstrike damage
- lumberjacking damage bonus on a hally nearly doubling the damage (hally oneshot)
- ANY weapon being able to poison without skill use while fighting
- armor ignores being able to hit without damage cap
- honor doubling damage in pvp for bush characters
- chiv "holy light" spam killing GROUPS of reds instantly
- necro blood-oath reflecting and amplifying damage ignoring resist
- lesser poison completely canceling out healing attempts
- human JOAT counting towards mana decrease, causing all specials costing 10 less mana for humans
and....well...you get the idea. Changes happen, many of them poorly thought through, the choice at that point is either nerf or the game is dead within months, if even half of this was left in we may as well all have glass swords as MANY of these things were able to oneshot people at will before they were fixed.
no, i didn't include them all, probably the BIGGEST defensive nerf was chain evade for bush, if you don't remember at 120bush/parry/weapon w/ a 2 hander around SE launch you could chain evade before the previous wore off (much like how confidence works now), and it was FAR more effective, chance of you being hit by either spell or weapon had to be less than 5%, you were essentially immortal. (I freely admit, for those few weeks it was somewhat amusing running around being able to take 5 people at once, and I wasn't even close to the only person abusing it.)So what you are saying is the Beastial suit is the first defensive item to be nerfed? So if we reversed all of those nerfs and left the beastial suit as is we would have a balanced playing field again.
Hell, combined WITH conf it was even worse, every block refilled you (which was essentially every hit), then with the cheaper lightning strike w/ higher crit combined with double damage honor you were essentially a tank + murder machine, it was insane.
And beastial suit or not, w/ current items and old rules AI would oneshot people, full damage increase stacked on a hatchet would be insta-death without pvp damage cap and lumberjacking nerf (which, to be fair, lumberjacking was nerfed so far as to be 100% useless, even with the recent bump which was pointlessly small for something that takes a full 100 skill)
What was fair about them exactly? It would be one thing if it let someone live a little longer and saved players from one extra big hit(1 Armor Ignore/Flamestrike), but what makes you think 15 seconds of shrugging off over 90% of any form of damage and no cool down is fair and balanced?So what you are saying is the Beastial suit is the first defensive item to be nerfed? So if we reversed all of those nerfs and left the beastial suit as is we would have a balanced playing field again.
Walk everyone through that so you don't look like you're whining, make a compelling case for everyone. We've all pointed out why it's absurd, I'd like for you to explain why it shouldn't be changed at all. Thanks.
Seeing as how it takes a sampire who does 150 damage a hit 25-30 min to solo doom and a group of 5-6 that includes a couple greater dragons, but does not include a sampire or AI archer approximately 20 min to run the whole thing, your claims are laughable at best. Either your watch is broken, or your rising colossus is 10x stronger than everyone elses.
Because all you pvpers are exaggerating with the whole "omg 10v1 he no die!!@!". If its 5v1, heck even 2v1 and you cant kill someone thats red lined (approximately 10-25 hp) at max berserk assuming your spells and attacks are only doing 5ish damage a hit then there is something wrong with you. Someone with a bestial suit that goes down to about 20 HP will get killed if 2 people sync a double flame strike and maybe one more spell as a finisher. Surely dismounting and applying a mortal strike and or poison before the final damage dump isn't too hard for you pro pvpers?
Its less likely that the bestial suit is flawed and more likely that you are simply angry that you are not getting your OMG LOL WE KILLED U IN 5 SECONDS rush.
Except the part where you shurg off too high of a percent. When I was testing with armor ignore, it was shrugging off 33 of the 35 damage. So in your hypothetical 20 hp. Two Flame strikes hitting for 38, lets assume its a necro or mystic what have you, you're fs hits for 38 max. Well that wouldn't kill the person. The damage reduction would more than save them, not to mention this suit is almost built specifically for ninjas. I haven't seen any other template use it more than ninjas since they can get away with it with ease. So Assuming someone is going to stay on screen 2v1(almost no one does these days) That damage would not be enough to kill said player at 20 hp, at this point they are turning into a wolf gaining hp hauling it in a straight line and probably using a smoke bomb. The fact that you think it's not good enough to save you from 1 sync dump every 60 seconds is pretty amusing.
Who is playing a tactics mage these days? You said two mages it should be easy to sync and if that doesn't so it, dismount and mortal? They way the devs put in terrible changes (not only bestial obviously since so many people agree) but JoaT changes make it not worth while to play a tactics mage. You almost never see a tactics mage these days because the best you can get on that temp is the 200 skill points and it's not worth it. That -5 mana instead of -10 is too much.
Here's the thing also, clearly no one including yoursel,f has made a valid point why it should last for 15 seconds with no cool down. With such compelling arguments provided by you and TBH I just can't figure out how this travasty of a change made it to origin and soon to be on every shard.
S
SugarSmacks
Guest
Personally the only way i see to "fix" the current problems with templates is the following. Some are already being implemented.
People wearing bestial suits shouldnt be able to stealth period. I dont mean when raged....I mean ever.
Bestial suits encourage the user to run. Therefore i dont believe animal form should work at all in a bestial suit. It needs a cooldown i know they are putting one in, but you truly cant appreciate why it is needed until you see a player running back and
forth into his house at yew gate to recharge constantly to run out again.
I dont believe when they implemented ninja they meant every single class to use it run away. Therefore a suitable balance would be to add the fact gargoyles should not be able to use animal form.....period. This should solve most of the abused tactics by
the gargoyle race.
Posoining is a problem but its not the problem they poison, the problem is they cant receive it. Remove all poison resistance from poisoners.....poisoning balanced.
It is beyond obvious there are people going to complain these items dont need nerfed. I for one have pvped all over almost every shard and have never heard of any of them.
So they are all from Trammel, this is a given, it has never been my experience in the previous 15 years that Trammel was the more important facet. The rules always have revolved around pvp, it is only in light of the current team to try to put Trammel first
that we have seen such a steep decline in people. Fel was first, and if you make the game revolve around a facet with no consequences you might as well just pack the bags of much of the remaining population.
If you dont believe me stop on the pvp boards at other places. People are begging to find others, guilds of people are disappearing now.
In the end everyone has the same 3 words on their minds Poisoning, Bestial, Throwing.
People wearing bestial suits shouldnt be able to stealth period. I dont mean when raged....I mean ever.
Bestial suits encourage the user to run. Therefore i dont believe animal form should work at all in a bestial suit. It needs a cooldown i know they are putting one in, but you truly cant appreciate why it is needed until you see a player running back and
forth into his house at yew gate to recharge constantly to run out again.
I dont believe when they implemented ninja they meant every single class to use it run away. Therefore a suitable balance would be to add the fact gargoyles should not be able to use animal form.....period. This should solve most of the abused tactics by
the gargoyle race.
Posoining is a problem but its not the problem they poison, the problem is they cant receive it. Remove all poison resistance from poisoners.....poisoning balanced.
It is beyond obvious there are people going to complain these items dont need nerfed. I for one have pvped all over almost every shard and have never heard of any of them.
So they are all from Trammel, this is a given, it has never been my experience in the previous 15 years that Trammel was the more important facet. The rules always have revolved around pvp, it is only in light of the current team to try to put Trammel first
that we have seen such a steep decline in people. Fel was first, and if you make the game revolve around a facet with no consequences you might as well just pack the bags of much of the remaining population.
If you dont believe me stop on the pvp boards at other places. People are begging to find others, guilds of people are disappearing now.
In the end everyone has the same 3 words on their minds Poisoning, Bestial, Throwing.
First of all you are only reading part of what i said. I never said that it wouldn't be enough to save a berserker suit wearer from 1 sync dump every 60 seconds. I said that the new 60 second cool down nerf on top of the reduced duration and non stealth makes the suit useless. As you just said this suit was pretty much made for ninjas who smokebomb to escape. As such the stealth nerf already made the suit bad if not useless for the template you claim it was tailored for. Assuming that i play a stealth ninja, why would i wear something that prevents me from going back into stealth when an opening occurs that lets me smokebomb without being instantly popped back out again? Assuming thats my primary escape method. And if most of the people who use this suit are stealth ninjas, then does that not by definition make the suit undesirable and useless?
Most importantly if we are talking about people who are not stealth ninjas, another way to look at the uselessness of the suit when a Cooldown is added is this. What prevents me from attacking someone wearing the suit until they hit rank 1 berserk, then i stop attacking them for like 6 seconds and suddenly wow they are wearing a gimp suit with less DCI, DI, or HCI than they should have because their suits defense mechanism which made up for the other shortcomings that came about as a result of not being able to wear certain artifacts and having a measly 450 imbue weight, can no longer activate for the next 60 seconds.
If i am not a stealth ninja there is no reason i would wear this suit at all, because the cooldown will always be active, and it will never save me from anything when i need it to because i cannot choose when i want to activate the berserk effect. The berserk effect will activate like 10 seconds into the fight, the enemy will switch targets for a few seconds and switch back and surprise no berserk effect! Or i get hit a few times enter rank 1 berserk, enemy misses a couple of their hits and suddenly i'm out of berserk effect again for the next 60 seconds. Oh but thats not all! Furthermore i also take a healing debuff for 8 seconds after coming out of rank 1 berserk ensuring that I will probably die much faster than I would be if i were wearing anything else. As you can see, a cooldown is terrible if i cannot choose when i want to activate the effect. And the suit as a whole is useless if i have to sacrifice stats to wear it.
As for the second part, it doesn't have to be tactics mage. I said mortal and or poison. Every mage has access to poison, and anyone can swing a bola. if 2 flame strikes takes the guy down from 20 to 10 hp, then u just poison and cast a 3rd spell to finish him off.
Lol, why don't we make it so that the suit cannot be worn, cannot be imbued, and is cursed while we are at it?
And no, fel is not as important as trammel. The only people who play in fel are always those same 20 people. Who sit around staring at each from across a guard zone. The only other time pvp takes place is if people from trammel want to do some spawns for fun but get ganked. Or if some reds decided they need powerscrolls and are ganked by other reds who aren't participating in the staring contest at some guard zone.
Tram has no consequence? i wonder where all the materials used to make your suits and the people who farm them so you don't have to come from? The answer is, not from Fel. I can guarantee you that if all crafting resources people have hoarded were deleted, and SA, tram, tokuno, and malas gained the pvp rule set, once all the dust has settled 10 essences of w/e will cost you at least 5 million gold. Because guess what no one wants to farm them if some red is always invisible in a corner waiting for the "farmer" to do the work and then capitalize by murdering them and stealing everything. I assure you that the game will die the moment the tram rule set is deleted because anyone who only ever plays in tram starts quitting in droves due to inability to do anything in the game without having a high chance of their efforts being taken away in mere seconds. No one wants to have to do something for hours only to have their rewards taken by some pvper who happened to be walking by.
Why do you think siege is empty? If your precious Fel were so important and everyone loved it so much then everyone would be playing on siege, and The other shards would be empty. But that certainly isn't the case is it now?
Frostbolt is obvious your a bad player with no conception of risk vs reward. There is no consequence in any of the tram facets. I have freely intergrated cursed items onto my sampire, wraith thrower, and stone form macer pvm chars. I have never worried about loosing a single thing. You people say dont change things that give you a gross advantage in PVM and EVERYONE is on the same side that is a PVMer because the computer cannot complain about how unbalanced your advantage is. PvPers ask for balances on things because there are two HUMAN sides that can logically see that if someone has less than 20 HP and you sync to FLAMESTRIKES on them and they do not die something is terribly wrong.
Risk vs reward? what is this, a 10 year old argument about why insurance is bad? Don't talk about risk vs reward unless your main shard is siege. Even then that argument is not in your favor because obviously the majority of people don't like risk. Hence most people play on normal shards and even reds run with insurance and complain when people dry loot them, or for w/e reason insurance bugs and they lose everything.
You are probably like that guy who claims he can solo doom in 30 min on a mystic, except instead you are exaggerating and boasting about how many cursed items you are wearing. You don't worry about losing any of your cursed items? That is probably because you are wearing negligible pieces of equipment i can imbue for approximately 10000 golds worth of ingredients. Hardly a risk in my mind.
If disliking risk is bad, and liking insurance is bad then you just called the majority of the players on UO bad. This isn't even a generalization, because obviously if the majority hate insurance, and love risk then they would be on siege yes? Yet it is a ghost town.
Pvpers also asked for fights to last longer so we got the bestial suit. Then they complained and it got nerfed. so in my eyes I think pvpers simply cannot make up their minds. And the nerfs pvpers keep screaming for are affecting my PVM. Refer to my post where i talk about how pvpers want everything nerfed, if things suddenly don't go their way.
Oh wow, 2 flamestrikes redlined him but didn't kill him! The fight is lasting longer and the smaller damage numbers are hurting my feelings! How come i can't pwn anymore! NERF THE SUIT!
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SugarSmacks
Guest
Actually everything anyone will ever think of you can be summed up in your first statement there.
The fact the last implementations were conceived by someone who only played Trammel and were then implemented by team have had devastating consequences in Ultima Online.
Ultima has had Felucca since the beginning, there was no Trammel. To say its less important just shows your overall place in the game.
Siege did not fail because of felucca lol. Siege failed due to many circumstances. This again the developer instead of actually listening to the community and vet players made what they thought was right....they didnt play either.
Siege would have worked had they made some pretty basic changes like being able to sell to vendors, no one was asking for a super hard shard when they made it, they were asking for a pre-aos shard, but again this is a clear example of not paying attention.
If you think the fact is because you see people only in Trammel that they never go to fel than it is your opinion, but hardly fact. Many pvpers live in Trammel ( I do), and because you see me there i must never go to fel eh?
In retrospect frostbolt i feel sorry for you, you have not only missed what Ultima Online was truly about you want to forever destroy whatever is left of it before the community finishes moving on. Pehaps one day you will learn to only speak about things
you actually have a knowledge in.
It is better to be thought a fool then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt. I think you could learn much from this.
If you sync two spells on someone that normaly deals over 70 points of damage against a 70's resist suit, that person has less than 10% life to start with and they do not die... something is wrong. How you dont understand that I do not know. I mean honestly did you really think that bestial suits would not get balanced out? The moment they were introduced on test everyone that didnt play a stealther was screaming about them. You have no intrest in whats good for the game only what makes it easy for you. I personally find it easy to solo pretty much anything ingame on a caster, thrower, or melee char.
The majority of Ultima Online players are primarily pvpers, just not the majority of EA Ultima online players because EA has butchered pvp for so long. Do you think that the PVMers left the game because of 4/6 casting on a mage,
do you think the PVMers left because of chiv mages that insta healed for 35+dmg insta cured and insta removed curses
. Do you think the pvmers left because of players hitting other players for 70+ damage AI's with a hatchet,
do you think PvMers left the game because they were requred to have tactics to use weapon specs therefore limiting pvp mage templates to the necro mage?
Do you think pvmers left the game because you cant toggle weapon specs while casting a spell making tank mage combos very difficult.
Do you think pvmers quit the game because bushido dexxers could chain evasion blocking and dodgeing everything constantly and get full life when they succesfully blocked anything.
Do you think pvmers quit the game because archers were insta killing people from stealth with word of death,
do you think pvmers quit the game because dexxers were doing 35+ dmg para blows constantly (IE nerve strike)
do you think pvmers quit because magic arrow netherbolt effectly stopped every other casting class from having any offense against the mystic.
do you think pvmers quit because rideable dragons were introduced (IE the dread mare) with no slayer.
Do you think pvmers quit because throwers can throw for 32 dmg + hit spell against a player with 70's resist.
Do you think pvmers quit because a suit let people live through ANYTHING.
Do you think pvmers quit because players can animal form and move at mounted speed after being tacticly dismounted?
In short, its not that the PVMers are more than the PvPers, its that through the lack of proper testing and timely balancing the PvPers have been ran off. The PvMers do not care because they just abuse the latest OP tactic against Slasher and Corgul. And apparently Slasher and Corgul dont know how to post there complaints on stratics.
The majority of Ultima Online players are primarily pvpers, just not the majority of EA Ultima online players because EA has butchered pvp for so long. Do you think that the PVMers left the game because of 4/6 casting on a mage,
do you think the PVMers left because of chiv mages that insta healed for 35+dmg insta cured and insta removed curses
. Do you think the pvmers left because of players hitting other players for 70+ damage AI's with a hatchet,
do you think PvMers left the game because they were requred to have tactics to use weapon specs therefore limiting pvp mage templates to the necro mage?
Do you think pvmers left the game because you cant toggle weapon specs while casting a spell making tank mage combos very difficult.
Do you think pvmers quit the game because bushido dexxers could chain evasion blocking and dodgeing everything constantly and get full life when they succesfully blocked anything.
Do you think pvmers quit the game because archers were insta killing people from stealth with word of death,
do you think pvmers quit the game because dexxers were doing 35+ dmg para blows constantly (IE nerve strike)
do you think pvmers quit because magic arrow netherbolt effectly stopped every other casting class from having any offense against the mystic.
do you think pvmers quit because rideable dragons were introduced (IE the dread mare) with no slayer.
Do you think pvmers quit because throwers can throw for 32 dmg + hit spell against a player with 70's resist.
Do you think pvmers quit because a suit let people live through ANYTHING.
Do you think pvmers quit because players can animal form and move at mounted speed after being tacticly dismounted?
In short, its not that the PVMers are more than the PvPers, its that through the lack of proper testing and timely balancing the PvPers have been ran off. The PvMers do not care because they just abuse the latest OP tactic against Slasher and Corgul. And apparently Slasher and Corgul dont know how to post there complaints on stratics.
Ad Hominem with no backing except opinion and made up facts that do not reflect what is considered common knowledge, not even worth a response longer than a sentence. Also with your "awesome balancing ideas" displayed in your previous post maybe EA will hire you as a dev rofl.
What, are you trying to make a distinction between UO players from before EA whom you see as all pvpers and UO players after EA whom are mostly "trammies"?
There is a distinct line between balancing and nerfing till its useless. Refer to my above post where i answered why having a cooldown on berserk is bad. For everyone including non stealthers who wear the suit.
An acceptable nerf would be to cut the damage reduction of Berserker suit by 1/3. Then you will still have your kill with a synced double flame strike, and the bestial suit will still serve to make fights drag out longer. However the current nerfs to the berserker suit are so bad that they might as well just delete them all from the game.
It is a fact that PvMers are the majority, and they spend very little time in Fel for the PvP. The 60s timer makes an expensive PvM suit useless. A PvPer can kill a green guy in less than 10 seconds. There is no need for 60s, I think 20s is more than enough. You know, 200,000 points per suit is expensive !!! A big loss of investment now !! It is silly !!
And Siege wasnt ruined by players lack of intrest in a pvp shard. Siege was ruined by a great many developer errors. It should have been a Pre-AOS shard. In a game that is fully item based you cannot have full loot. But ppl stayed. The fact that you could not sell anything to vendors and that everything from vendors was soo expensive made it hard for new players there to gain intrest. The fact that it would have took 4 months to Gm a skill with ROT made new players lose intrest. I think what really put the nail in the coffin was the stealth tamers. On a shard where you dont have a perfect suit Gdragon firebreath would do like 90+ dmg to those guys. Made it fully unbalanced.
PvMers are the majority of EA players, not the majority of UO players. They reason they are the majority is not that more ppl have intrest in pvm over pvp but because EA ran most of us off with there lack of testing and lack of timely balances. I do agree that 60s is a little overkill, 30 seconds would be fine. But the reduced healing after rage is needed to stop people from timing bandies from going off the second rage subsides. But if you people did not honestly think that this suit would get changed then OMFG. If it was meant to be a PvM suit then the devs truely are out of touch with the game to not foresee what this would do to pvp.
When was the last time you sold anything to a vendor? I haven't even sold anything to a vendor since the day i started playing.
Exactly you cannot have full loot, because most people do not want the risk of losing the loot they had to spend hours to earn. You kinda just refuted the whole risk vs reward thing you accused me off a few posts back.
Which is exactly why I said that no one plays on siege because no one cares for this archaic idea of risk that hasn't existed as a functional part of the game for years.
You can't separate "EA players" from "UO players" because whatever the case is, most of your so called pre-renaissance UO pvpers quit and are now outnumbered by us "EA players" no matter how you want to look at it.
I said in a full item based game you cannot have full loot. I did not say that you cant have partial loot like champ spawns. Most of the new endgame content should have been added sort of like champ spawns were. I personally havent sold anything to a vendor in years, but on a new shard where no one has money it is a needed part of the game to foster a full and diverse community.
No, if for example Navrey were sitting in a pvp ruleset area, then no pve-er would ever go there. Because it would be a pvp hotspot where it is almost guaranteed a thief or a dexxer stealther would just be sitting around there afk waiting for someone to come inside.
Solo pvers would be forced to go in at ungodly hours of the day, and blue guilds are probably going to be raided by red guilds etc etc.
Making what should be pvm content into pvp content is exactly the sort of thing that would make pvm-ers quit. Because the content would be inaccessible to them.
No new pvm content => pvm-er gets bored of old burnt out content => pvm-er quits for a new game
Having to lure blues into fel with incentives of loot to provide people for the reds to kill is pretty much proof of how few people actually willingly pvp.
Any cooldown on the bestial suit greater than 10 seconds after the berserk effect ends will pretty much ensure that the berserk effect will not be available when you actually need it to save you. Especially because for 8 seconds afterwards you can't heal the damage that brought you down to berserk levels to begin with. Wearing the bestial suit with a healing debuff that extends past the berserk duration is like wearing a big kill me sign in this regard.
1)40% hp! Can't heal in berserk,
2) people stop attacking you and chase you around while precasting spells, 8 seconds elapse
3)can't heal out of berserk!
4) oh noes i don't have damage reduction debuff anymore either and i am still at like 40 % hp, and i cant heal! 8 seconds elapse
5) dead.
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SugarSmacks
Guest
Thats the truth and very well put, and one of Sieges critical errors.
Others include being able to have only one character and insane skill train times. They basically condemned the shard from the start.
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SugarSmacks
Guest
I am sorry i quoted AOS as the publish it was trying to avoid if i missed the exact one. The point was people were trying to play a less item based and a more skill based game. I do not remember exactly which one it was that created Tram, i thought it was AOS. Which one was it Renaissance?
Either way people did not want the extra facets the extra item properties they were happy with ONLY fel because when there was just one facet it was crowded and crowded made it fun.
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"Either way people did not want the extra facets the extra item properties they were happy with ONLY fel because when there was just one facet it was crowded and crowded made it fun."
That is not true at all I was their before and after tram was created and that statement is far far from the truth! and i believe the trammel publish was 16
That is not true at all I was their before and after tram was created and that statement is far far from the truth! and i believe the trammel publish was 16
kelmo
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Siege predates the creation of Trammel, by the way. Just sayin'. It also have nothing to do with this line of discussion. Some here are just throwing "junk" to see what sticks. While this discussion is pretty much done, it has brought to the fore front how little some folks really know about Siege and all the efforts to make it a better experience. That is for another thread though.
Powerscrolls were publish 16 tram came out well over a year before powerscrolls
I dont think all content should be PvP area. I just think that all of the endgame items should have been. If you want the best stuff you have to make the risk. This would also have fostered community hasnt been seen since the fel/tram split. If you think everyone who has ever been in the champ spawn guilds are all "pvpers" you are dead wrong. Back in the day most of the champsawn guilds had a handful of pvper and the rest were PvMers working the spawn, it was more of a 50/50 split. But I guess your the kind of guy that turn natural disasters off in Sim City and fog of war off in Warcraft/starcraft.
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Vyal
Guest
You should feel lucky that suit was even left in the game and not compensated for turn in points.
Also for anyone arguing with a child about why this suit was a very bad thing for pvp is pointless.
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yes i was looking back and it looks like tram there was no actual publish number so 16 is not right
Just did the Gauntlet. Between RC AIs (~100) and 100 damage slayer spells took me about 5-6 minutes per room. Then you just RC and kite the DF to deal with spawn. Pretty easy, man. No offense, you just might not be a really skilled PvMer on your mystic.
These PvM/PvP debates always make me laugh because the most efficient PvMers are usually PvPers, not because PvPers are magically better than PvMers but because all PvPers are stat-heads.
Indeed, and on that note I'm gonna say goodbye to this thread. My posts were about feedback on the beastial suit and this thread has now taken a tragic turn towards bickering over what is more important for the game. Both are.
Take a look at what you wrote and think about why your idea is absurd, and how your "example" makes no sense. Risk to who? There is only risk for a pvm-er in fel, there is none for a red. A red takes no risk when they gank a blue at a champ spawn, because they spent no effort leveling the spawn. They just wait till the end of a champ to steal the work of others. In such a situation a pvper doesn't take any risk to get the best stuff so how is it fair to a pvm-er?
First of all the only pvm-ers (i am not referring to rpers but actual pvmers who play to beat every boss encounter solo or with a friend) who care about non-end game content are new people who can't do end game content yet. Should i spend half an hour keying for grizzle, then fight grizzle for another 30 min, take it down to 20% hp and have some random reds come up and gank me finishing what i started? Or maybe have a whole bunch of thieves stealthing around me afk until the boss dies to steal everything that drops? No. your risk vs reward idea is not accepted by the majority of the community and the proof is seen in how many people hang around fel vs how many people hang around a pvm rule set area.
The only people who would support pvp ruleset in end game pvm content are griefers, reds, and people who are too lazy to do things themselves and would prefer to let blues do all the work and take the rewards for themselves.
Secondly as to why your so called example doesn't make sense. Your "back in the day" example really does not prove anything at all, because if tram didn't exist back then, then of course all the PVM-ers would be playing in fel. Thats kind of a given there or did you not think that through when you tried to use that as an example.
The only reason why pvm-ers are at a champ spawn "back in the day" and even now is because they can't get power scrolls anywhere else. Its not that a Pvm-er wants to be there in fel, its because they have no choice. When you say risk vs reward in fel, the risk is completely skewed towards the pvm-er and the reward is skewed toward the reds. Because if a few red shows up at a champ spawn a few pvmers are working, then its already over.
Nothing prevents the reds from rezzing and coming back over and over again disrupting the efforts of the pvm-er should they fight back until all the pvm-ers are completely wiped out because the reds have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Even if its a stalemate then the pvm-er still lost because they didn't finish their pvm objective. The pvpers at least got the satisfaction of griefing the pvm-ers and when the pvmers leave in disgust the reds will finish what the pvmers started.
I don't have to point out that the above fighting scenario usually does not even happen because reds don't make their appearance until the end of the spawn or when the champ actually pops. They will then go around ganking the blues who are already busy fighting high tier monsters. In the end all that the pvmers did was wasting the better part of half an hour to an hour to work the spawn up while the reds who show up then take all the rewards for themselves.
in the eyes of the pvm-er reds are nothing more than scavenging harpies who prey on the efforts of others.
Risk vs reward is such a ridiculous notion that you should be ashamed to even use it as an argument against trammel. Anyone who isn't biased can see that it's just an excuse used by a bunch of lazy reds who want an easy way to get high end items at the expense of others.
In conclusion pvpers will never experience risk in pvm content when pit against pvm-ers because they won't appear until the pvm-ers have done the majority of the work. Risk vs reward is a biased argument in favor of pvpers who have nothing to lose.
Umm no, i would much prefer if they deleted the suits and compensated me for my points and imbue reagents, now that they are completely useless. For the points the suit cost i coulda bought a bunch of bee hives or bless deeds amongst other things. The way i see it i feel very unlucky that they aren't giving us the option to turn the suits back in for points, after they nerfed it to oblivion.
You are missing the point of what i was talking about when i was actually replying to you which is casters arn't op in comparison to dexxers and are in fact quite underpowered. Besides posting an image of your colossus doing 60 damage to a mummy isn't proof of how long it took you to clear a room or down a dark father. Try again.
V
Vyal
Guest
This thread has nothing to do with pvp at a grizzle in tram or some kid who would get stomped by a red crying about how he would get stomped by a red at a grizzle in tram and then cry, its about the beastial suit and the pvp that was based around it.
If people actually cared about discussing the bestial suit, then they would be responding to my argument about why a cooldown on the berserk effect would make it useless, rather than nitpicking about things like how long it takes to kill everything in doom on a mystic or whether or not siege predates tram.
It just proves that i am correct when I say that pvpers will do anything to try and get something they don't like nerfed. I respond to their inquiries for examples of why cooldowns and reduced durations would make the suit bad for everyone including non stealthers, and then everyone goes off tangent and talk about other things to try and change the topic to something completely unrelated so they don't have to come up with an argument for their cause that's more complex than omg 2v1 can't kill him with 2 flamestrike therefore must be op!.
it's ok though I don't expect you to come up with a coherent argument without tons of exaggeration because as can be seen in the way you post in that other thread about death strike.
1) 5 death strikes in 5 seconds for 250 damage!
2) someone points out thats impossible, and that you can just stand still
3) you respond with oh wait there were actually 10 people trying to kill me at the time I can't possibly stand still!, So instead i must take 250 points from a guy spamming death strike instead!
conclusion you would have died anyway. Which of course you completely ignore and then go on to talk about how omg they can fit 3 deathstrikes each doing 50 damage in 4 seconds. completely impossible of course given the mechanics of death strike but you also completely ignore the facts and anyone who disagrees with you.
In other words, i think you are less interested about arguing for your position but rather you are just looking for people to agree with you. In both threads might i add.
And if anyone is wondering, me bringing up deathstrike is still totally relevant since Vyal has mentioned death strike at least 8 times on the first page of this thread.
hahaha god. That is so unbelievably true.
I'm confused. Didn't you reply to my query yesterday as to what the pvm usage cases were for bestials by saying that was taking the conversation off on a tangent? We've already covered how the currently in game suit functions in pvp. For what it's worth, I don't like the final version of changes to the suit as it feels as if they've gone too far. I would have proposed a shorter cooldown period for the suit. UO pvp is all about burst damage and 60 seconds is too long. I would have tried 20 seconds to start and watched how this played out among real players / testers. I would also have suggested adjusting the reduced healing after exiting rage. Off the top of my head I'd have suggested a three second period - up to first second reduced by 100%, up to second second reduced by 66%, and up to the third second reduced by 33%. Even that might be too severe...but it's hard to know without getting some actual data from testing.
Frostbolt your beyond ignorant. So in your mind if they made a suit that let you 1 hit kill anything and never take damage you would be mad if the "pvpers" got it nerfed to where your resist were only at 99%. You have no sense of what is good for the games in terms of balance or community. But keep on turning off natural disasters in Sim city and turnin off fog of war in starcraft/warcraft. Its apparent that you do not like challenge in any game and how you find that fun i have no idea. Maybe we should give everyone college degrees because its not fair that the egghead Vice presidents make all that money from uneducated assembly line workers...
And by your logic frostbolt I have solo'd pretty much everything ingame, got everything I will ever need, enough to have any chars I want on any shard suited and scrolled but I do not think I should be forced to go to the boring tram ruleset to do so. Tram has far far more to offer than Fel and you people still cry about powerscrolls. UO in a tram ruleset is easymode no matter how much HP the beast has...
I like that for the most part you have clear thoughts and seem kind of intelligent, but you still haven't said why it's balanced that someone can absorb a lot of extra damage with no cool down on it.
All it does is paint the picture that you're some guy who relies on this suit and you're really upset that it's getting fixed.
I don't think anyone would mind if it helped people by letting them survive an extra big attack, but when its helping them just stand up to things that should crush anyone and they come out untouched it's a bit absurd. Lets be honest for a second so I can paint you a situation that happened and you tell me if this SHOULD happen everytime. I kill an enemy factioner. He is a zero resist stealther dp ninja(no healing). He tries to come back to get his body gets paralyzed, bola'd, paralyzed. He then takes a sync'd up exp fs with an all kill(dread (7x)bake (~98all skills)) while being paralyzed with two trained pets unleashing firebreaths hits and spells he gets away. Everyone is welcome to chime in on this for an opinoion if that's balanced.
I just wanted to touch on another subject I saw, Siege. This shard just has a terrible idea behind it. Pre AoS rules, in an AoS rule set. If I want to play pre aos I'll go to hybird where it has everything the same old specials, armor, recalling in dungeons ect. Siege is just a terrible concept. If anything a classic shard like UOG:Hybird > Siege
No i never answered anything about the uses of the suit in pvm, because i don't think that it is really a pvm suit. I did however answer why the suit would become useless with a cooldown on berserk, a reduced duration, and having the healing debuff extend beyond the buff itself in posts 262 and 273.
And of course everyone who is in favor of nerfing already "covered" the situation of the suit in pvp but most of their arguments involve something along the lines of "i cant 1v10 people anymore" or "i can't 2 shot someone with flame strike anymore".
I'm probably the first person in this entire topic to argue against the nerfs with an argument that consists of more than something along the lines of "learn to adapt"
Thats why you play in fel and fight other players instead of the AI. Stop trying to push your pvp agendas on people who are not bored with pvm yet. You can find people to fight without having to have pvp rulesets in Tram to force unwilling people to fight against you. You want a challenge right? I don't see any "challenge" on your end when you are killing trammies at less than full hp while surrounded by dragons or w/e. If i am biased toward pvmers in my sense of what is good for the game, then you are equally guilty because your sense of what is good for the game and the community is actually what is good for the pvpers and the pvp community.
In one of my replies i've stated that it is more acceptable for them to reduce the amount of damage absorbed by perhaps 1/3 so that you can still get a kill from a synced double flame strike when someone is at 20 hp, than for them to place a cooldown on the effect which would subsequently make it so that you would never have berserk up when you are actually in trouble. Since berserk would get activated maybe 10 seconds into the fight and fall off as soon as your opponent either misses a hit or withholds an attack for the next 8 seconds.
I also mentioned that having the heal debuff stick after berserk drops off is like having a kill me sign painted on your back. You get someone down to 30% wait a few seconds for berserk to drop and then sync a flamestrike to instant kill and they can't even chug a potion because it heals for like 5 hp. As it is now, the suit is good if you want to gimp yourself by having a random debuff that makes it so that you are unable to heal yourself for 8 seconds once every 60 seconds. And i must reiterate, that this debuff will appear randomly because berserk will activate and deactivate at the most random and inopportune times due to the cooldown and low duration of berserk.
I don't mind if they nerf the suit without leaving it useless, I'm more concerned about the fact that i am now the owner of a rather expensive piece of deco because the nerfs have gone overboard. Its no longer "balance" when the item in question becomes completely undesirable for its intended purpose
I'll say it again, the pvp community of UO is much bigger than the pvm community. Its just not that way on EA shards because of the way EA has handled balance on the pvp side. Its not that pvmers are more numerous its that EA has ran the pvpers off.
We don't talk about private shards on uostratics boards. If the pvp community is larger on some random private shard, well they don't count for the purposes of this discussion.
Logic evades you. I'm done discussing this you dont have the intellect to contiune
And that's enough.
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