A real fix for hiding/stealth

[Draxous]

First... why the hell would I hide in a house from just you on a tracker/detector?

Or even hide from just you... period?

Try to make sense.

Second, this has nothing to do with preventing you from escaping because you invested 175 points into a skill set. It has everything to do with making it not so easy a caveman can do it easy... so fights are fun and more balanced.

Again try to make some sense.


Finally, I don't see a problem if there is no timer from using a smoke bomb to when you can start stealthing (since it's an item, as a compromise to those who think this idea is the end of the world as they know it) but if you use the skill... you should be waiting the 8 seconds it takes in order to use another skill before... you know, you start using another skill.

So, in closing... try to make some sense when you argue a point, Kat.

Are you high? WTF would I be out there alone, on a stealther with track/detect, without any real means to kill you? Get a ****in clue already. I never said I was out there alone. I am typically out there with my guildmates and even numbers or not

THANKS KAT!!!

I'm glad you proved my point. I really love how effective your character is at dealing with hide/stealthers... you only need an entire guild to accompany you in order to do so.

A whole guild to take on a character who's invested 175.0 skill points into a skill set.

Awesome... that's balanced.

Cause you for sure couldn't take on a single stealther with that character by yourself.

and look... it even has hiding/stealth! I wonder why![/sarcasm

again, THANKS KAT!!!

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

ROFL. God forbid you leave the house without the protection of your guild...la

ROFL...oh wait, you're not talking about elmer...do you play siege rico?

Longer than you have...didn't you come over in the I^A invasion?...la

 

[Kat]

I am aware of the changes but up until a few days ago I was still getting the war bug to work. Did they just re fix it?

stealth/hide should be a means t move silently and set up an ambush,youshould not be able to use special abilities or dismounts or bolas while hidden at all....orcs did it the right way, we would KRIMP...den krump.....

Well.. It was fixed. I'll have to check it out. I use an all kill macro, so if its FUBAR, I'm not aware of it and may have spoken too soon.

As for special abilities like dismount, you are revealed when you actually attempt to dismount. I'm not sure what you mean there. I know for a fact that it isn't possible to dismount anyone and remain hidden. Now... You can que up a bola much in the same fashion that you que up the dismount special move and when you actually use it, you are revealed. Whatever the method of dismount, the dismounter is on foot and usually too close to re-hide. There is also timer between using a bola and the ability to use animal form. As such, they should be a fairly easy kill. *shrugs*

Requiring tactics to use a bola... may possibly force players to consider a different template.

 

[Ru TnT]

Finally, I don't see a problem if there is no timer from using a smoke bomb to when you can start stealthing (since it's an item and only finite in supply, as a compromise to those who think this idea is the end of the world as they know it) but if you use the skill... you should be waiting the 8 seconds it takes in order to use another skill before... you know, you start using another skill.

umm, you do realize that the egg/smoke bomb actually uses the hide skill? it just allows hide to work while in the line of sight of something flagged on you. if anything it should be the other way around.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Would be funny to watch all the heads explode if I could steal/egg bomb without a timer...la

 

[Draxous]

Finally, I don't see a problem if there is no timer from using a smoke bomb to when you can start stealthing (since it's an item and only finite in supply, as a compromise to those who think this idea is the end of the world as they know it) but if you use the skill... you should be waiting the 8 seconds it takes in order to use another skill before... you know, you start using another skill.

umm, you do realize that the egg/smoke bomb actually uses the hide skill? it just allows hide to work while in the line of sight of something flagged on you. if anything it should be the other way around.

Yeah... but I'm trying to compromise here. If possible and if they could code it... this would be a decent compromise.

Maybe even make them like invis items or the magery spell invisibility too to get around this? So you can stealth away instantly, but in a short period of time... you will have to use the skill hiding and then wait to stealth increasing the risk of being found or be revealed if you wait too long while trying to stealth away.

Egg/smoke bombs can be stolen, looted or used up... which is why I picked my side of the fence.

Coming equipped to a fight should yield benefits... plus, its not that hard to move 8 tiles away from an opponent.

Something however needs to be done about how easy it is to escape a fight by having hiding and stealth, regardless tho.

 

[Ru TnT]

Longer than you have...didn't you come over in the I^A invasion?...la

been here three years, i was in I^A for a while but i don't recall an invasion, might have been the other ru...

do you actively play here? don't think i've seen you more than a time or two. don't really wanna waste the time looking for ya if you're never here...

 

[Draxous]

Would be funny to watch all the heads explode if I could steal/egg bomb without a timer...la

I hope they become stacked... because if they do, I would love it if they made it so that thiefs could steal whole stacks.

It would add new meaning to "pick your poison"

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

been here three years, i was in I^A for a while but i don't recall an invasion, might have been the other ru...

do you actively play here? don't think i've seen you more than a time or two. don't really wanna waste the time looking for ya if you're never here...

LOL, yes, I am an active player on Siege...la

 

[Kat]

THANKS KAT!!!

I'm glad you proved my point. I really love how effective your character is at dealing with hide/stealthers... you only need an entire guild to accompany you in order to do so.

At the very least you need 2 players if not how you describe, a whole guild to take on a character who's invested 175.0 skill points into a skill set.

Awesome... that's balanced.

Cause you for sure couldn't take on a single stealther with that character by yourself.

and look... it even has hiding/stealth! I wonder why![/sarcasm

again, THANKS KAT!!!

Well don't spoodge on yourself too quick there, BR.

Let me refresh your memory here a bit. HaHa ran a similar template and when he did, he ran with his guild in tow. He certainly never played it ALONE. Is it the best template for PvP? Nope, but neither is one with stealth and hiding. Some of us don't mind utilizing teamwork. One of the awesome aspects of UO is the unlimited possibilities when desiging a template. Maybe if you or some of your guildies weren't so focused on being uber leet, track/detect could help you out a bit.

Try posting with some intelligence in the future please.

 

[Ru TnT]

the whole problem is that its WAY too easy for stealthers to escape danger.

it's not just stealthing that saves them though. it's usually the run over the river and through the wood, to the server line/house/guard zone we go...

 

[Draxous]

Let me refresh your memory here a bit. HaHa ran a similar template and when he did, he ran with his guild in tow. He certainly never played it ALONE. Is it the best template for PvP? Nope, but neither is one with stealth and hiding.

A bok stealth ninja is an extremely lethal template in PvP... which has no issues playing ALONE.

You really hate being wrong, don't you?

Must suck to be like that... try growing up a bit first.

Thanks, bye.

 

[Mogluk]

Bingo!



but how is this going to help you set up an ambush?

Hide/stealth should mean you can move about silently to go about your business un-noticed or as a tool to set up ambush's.

What I'm saying is that it is not a "get out of jail free card" when it comes to escaping a PvP fight.

actually that is EXACTLY what it was meant to do. to escape danger or to set up a sneaky ambush.

BR you apparently have forgotten how the old stealth works,

1. activate hide
2. wait 8 seconds (while standing still)
3. move slowly # steps equal to your skill
4. re activate stealth (while standing still)
5. move another # stepss equal to skill level.


that change was made exactly to combat the high damage output and area effects spells and such that came in with necro and chiv and a few other weapon abilities that were added. I clearly remember how much stealth sucked, is the skill more powerful , of course it is. But its the application that makes it SEEM overpowered. no one seems to complain about my stealth mage template? why? because stealth when not put with the uber skills is not that tough, do you have problems with thieves killing you? why not?

 

[Kat]

A bok stealth ninja is an extremely lethal template in PvP... which has no issues playing ALONE.

You really hate being wrong, don't you?

Must suck to be like that... try growing up a bit first.

Thanks, bye.

HaHa = The Gerbiler. Go look up his template on that character. He didn't play that character alone.

 

[Mogluk]

again its the using skills (nerve strike) while hidden that is over the top..... if he had to hit you at least once with a regular shot AND then toggle nervestrike it would be a whole different story.

again there are some WAY too powerful combinations out there and they should be addressed, but taking stealth back into the stone age would not be the best way IMHO

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

HaHa = The Gerbiler. Go look up his template on that character. He didn't play that character alone.

LOL, you defend your lack of solo playing based on another player? Sorry, but that is lame...la

 

[Kat]

Well, you're absolutely right about that, Mo, but I was refering to HaHa's Gerbiler character. He ran some combination of hiding/stealth/music/peace/detect/tracking and lord knows what else. He was very effective in helping his guildmates and we hated to see that guy anywhere, anytime. lol

 

[Draxous]

again its the using skills (nerve strike) while hidden that is over the top..... if he had to hit you at least once with a regular shot AND then toggle nervestrike it would be a whole different story.

again there are some WAY too powerful combinations out there and they should be addressed, but taking stealth back into the stone age would not be the best way IMHO

Even then... its not that hard to pop out of stealth, toggle a special and double click an enemy in a split second. Defeating the whole point of what you're trying to do...

Your suggest comes up... way short, mo.

 

[Draxous]

HaHa = The Gerbiler. Go look up his template on that character. He didn't play that character alone.

LOL, you defend your lack of solo playing based on another player? Sorry, but that is lame...la

She's upset about looking foolish and a temper tantrum is soon to follow.

 

[Kat]

She's upset about looking foolish and a temper tantrum is soon to follow.

LOL I'm not the one whose head exploded last week and had about 5 posts removed. You and Speedy hold the title for biggest temper tantrums around here.

 

[Mogluk]

your claiming its short before its ever implemented BR, your failing to examine the exact reason why stealth SEEMS to be over powered. Look at eth situation and see what is really the problem. Is stealth killing you? no

If you are upset that peopel are stealthing away when you would like to fight them, I would suggest running a template to kill stealthers a few tweaks to any template will allow you to adequately stomp any stealther, however there is a risk there youwill be UNDERPOWERED when a full PvP template shows up. It seems to me that you want to FORCE people to play a template that is to your choosing, rather than adapt to the templates they are using. that being said I AGREE with some of your points, but I disagree with your possible alternatives, as I believe that THEY come up short. Your not fixing the problem, your fixing the symptoms for you. Kinda selfish really, can't have a shard full of mages have to have some variety

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

She's upset about looking foolish and a temper tantrum is soon to follow.

LOL I'm not the one whose head exploded last week and had about 5 posts removed. You and Speedy hold the title for biggest temper tantrums around here.

You've had plenty of posts removed, so there is no need to try and play the innocent here...la

 

[Lord_Puffy]

my guess? hmm, probably because some people can't/won't man up and use some skill points from thier templates to get track/detect. or they just refuse to learn how to deal with a stealther. much easier to come pancake and moan about it. you guys may want to get in touch with milk chan/haha, i'm sure they could offer some helpful advice...

200.0 vs 180.0 = 8% chance of revealing so realistically how efficent is that?


There should be a 12 second timer for someone to use the stealth skill after hiding, every other skill has a timer between skills.

 

[Ru TnT]

200.0 vs 180.0 = 8% chance of revealing so realistically how efficent is that?


There should be a 12 second timer for someone to use the stealth skill after hiding, every other skill has a timer between skills.

i'm not sure where you guys get your numbers from, they can't be right...

 

[Lord_Puffy]

as i said, ask for advice. crying nerf because you don't understand the game...lol, are you sure you're KoC?? as i said before, learn to use the tools available...

well if like BR said which trust me I hate to agree with him on, that if stealth had a timer like the rest of the skills do on uo we wouldnt be having this problem.


OR remember when everyone cried detect had no timer and it was making stealthers useless... why did you guys cry and ask for nerfs instead of using the tools avaiable?

I just dont see how you can even make an arguement with this when its obviously an inbalanced game mechanic. You wait 12 seconds to hide, you wait 12 seconds to detect. You wait 0 seconds after using the hide skill to use ANOTHER SKILL (that should have a timer) and instantly walk away while someone waits the correct time to try again.


They should have the same timer for stealth as they do every other skill that is used. That is fair and balanced, and it would make a stealther use some real skill, and not just be able to dissapear from a fight the moment they are revealed. You'd technically be stuck in that same spot you just hide in for 12 seconds waiting for the timer to stealth. Thats the way it should have been made, I bet if you go to UHALL and post enough they will make this fix because it is actually plauseable and has meaning/merit.


But IM sure there are going to be the same people who abuse this template/skillset that will NEVER agree on giving up their only crutch in pvp.

Just some food for thought, truth hurts.

 

[Mogluk]

lol they are way off, if you have tracking and detect ( add elf for good measure) and I reveal people all the time. But then I am a sitting duck for PvP'rs

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Very true. I have detect at GM and no tracking, and I reveal players all the time. Red's are the most fun, when they come into Luna bank, and think they are safe from the blue horde.

I reveal them, then laugh when they are attacked. Or reveal them and laugh as I steal their healing regs, bandies, or bolts/arrows...la

 

[Mogluk]

They should have the same timer for stealth as they do every other skill that is used. That is fair and balanced, and it would make a stealther use some real skill, and not just be able to disappear from a fight the moment they are revealed. You'd technically be stuck in that same spot you just hide in for 12 seconds waiting for the timer to stealth. Thats the way it should have been made, I bet if you go to UHALL and post enough they will make this fix because it is actually plauseable and has meaning/merit.

are you feeling ok??? did you hit your head?? how hard would it be to kill ANY person who hid and had to stay there for 12 seconds before they could move. The old 8 second wait would be an eternity. umm can we say earthquake then explode/ebolt then dead.......the skill works exactly as it was intended its the additional stuff EA keeps adding that makes it more powerful..

when everyone was complaining about uber dragons and they fixed the STRENGTH of the dragons not the skill, why? because the skill worked as intended it was the lack of foresight by the design team in not appropriately gauging the full impact of new items/creatures/abilities.

if you could do nothing but move your self while stealthing (maybe even add a timer for use of combat abilities while stealthing) essentially if you get rid of auto stealth you will kill 75% of the non combat templates, 35% of combat templates and who knows what else. trust me auto stealth is the ONLY thing I stay here for (well the breedurs too) or else I would be on another "shard"

 

[Draxous]

your claiming its short before its ever implemented BR, your failing to examine the exact reason why stealth SEEMS to be over powered. Look at eth situation and see what is really the problem. Is stealth killing you? no

If you are upset that peopel are stealthing away when you would like to fight them, I would suggest running a template to kill stealthers a few tweaks to any template will allow you to adequately stomp any stealther, however there is a risk there youwill be UNDERPOWERED when a full PvP template shows up. It seems to me that you want to FORCE people to play a template that is to your choosing, rather than adapt to the templates they are using. that being said I AGREE with some of your points, but I disagree with your possible alternatives, as I believe that THEY come up short. Your not fixing the problem, your fixing the symptoms for you. Kinda selfish really, can't have a shard full of mages have to have some variety

I do run a template to combat stealthers...

It doesn't need to be implemented to know it will come up short.

I really don't see how this change will make this a shard full of mages. Tamers, dexers, assassins, mages, all of the templates would be on equal footing. Just because a stealther won't have the ability to escape **as easily** is not the same as making the templates obsolete (which is what you're suggesting... which, ironically... would make this a shard of just mages... or non-combatant stealthers)

 

[Draxous]

They should have the same timer for stealth as they do every other skill that is used. That is fair and balanced, and it would make a stealther use some real skill, and not just be able to disappear from a fight the moment they are revealed. You'd technically be stuck in that same spot you just hide in for 12 seconds waiting for the timer to stealth. Thats the way it should have been made, I bet if you go to UHALL and post enough they will make this fix because it is actually plauseable and has meaning/merit.

are you feeling ok??? did you hit your head?? how hard would it be to kill ANY person who hid and had to stay there for 12 seconds before they could move. The old 8 second wait would be an eternity. umm can we say earthquake then explode/ebolt then dead.......the skill works exactly as it was intended its the additional stuff EA keeps adding that makes it more powerful..

I believe there should be a timer between when you can stealth after hiding... BUT, I do think that 8-12 seconds is a bit too much too.

If the timer was 4 seconds... that would give ample time for opponents of a stealther to counter the move.

I've said it before so I'll say it again... balance is all about being able to counter moves... if you're poisoned, you cure (and have many options available to you to do so.) Imagine if the only way to cure was by having 100.0 magery... would that be balanced? Hell no.

Hiding/Stealth should be no different and right now it is imbalanced because the counters to someone who hides and stealths... are inadequate.

*tips hat*

 

[Ru TnT]

Hiding/Stealth should be no different and right now it is imbalanced because the counters to someone who hides and stealths... are inadequate.

which brings us back to me saying to use the counters we already have. why don't i find them to be inadequate??

 

[Kat]

You've had plenty of posts removed, so there is no need to try and play the innocent here...la

Innocent, I am not. I have crossed the line and gotten personal, but I've never made threats, RL attacks on anyones character, spewed obscenities and fipped my gourd. lol There's not much difference in terms of repercussions, but mine aren't nearly as amusing as watching them flip out.

 

[Skylark SP]

Why should it be nearly required? To make your own mini Trammel on Siege?
None of my crafters do have hiding/stealth, if they die, it's no big lose.

My observation in the years I spent on Siege was that the crafters and resource gatherers that actually preferred that playstyle (not "mule" chars on another account to support a PvP char) are the most "visible" even though they are essentially completely vulnerable. Crafting/harvesting skill points were always far more important to me than building in potential defensive capabilities such as hiding/stealth, and I suspect that may be the same for other people who preferred the crafting/harvesting aspect of the game.

Even after soulstones, I didn't implement hiding/stealth. I did use invis sometimes (had enough magery to gate on both chars after all), although that was more generally used to break targeting from a monster, rather than to hide from a player attacker, because unlike a computer operated monster, when a player sees you vanish via use of a spell that breaks with movement, they don't have to be a rocket scientist to suspect that you are quite likely still sitting on that square of dirt where they last saw you, and "pushing aside something invisible" when they step on the tile will rather effectively confirm that suspicion.

What is funny is that I made a third character to try out PvP, then when Wulf needed help with factions, I started training hiding, stealth, and thieving on her...but Wulf stopped playing when she was in the early stages of RoT, and even if he hadn't, I doubt I would have finished her PvP template. Castor would sometimes do practice fights with me to try to show me how stuff worked in PvP, and it was fun, but inevitably I'd end up getting sidetracked from the lessons, and start picking up reagents off the ground, and shearing sheep or something. I did remember not to use the ~5M GP sword he gave me to stab people with, to shear sheep, though.

-Skylark

 

[John Connelly]

THANKS KAT!!!
A whole guild to take on a character who's invested 175.0 skill points into a skill set.

Awesome... that's balanced.

To smoke bomb also needs 50 Ninja so it requires an investment of 225 skill points to hide instantly. For that you can get Detect and Track at GM and still have 25 points advantage over the stealth template.

 

[Draxous]

You've had plenty of posts removed, so there is no need to try and play the innocent here...la

Innocent, I am not. I have crossed the line and gotten personal, but I've never made threats, RL attacks on anyones character, spewed obscenities and fipped my gourd. lol There's not much difference in terms of repercussions, but mine aren't nearly as amusing as watching them flip out.

You've never made RL attacks on peoples character?

You've never spewed obscenities?

You've never flipped your gourd?

lol!

Even though, you're lying... do you want a cookie or something?

I know that I've never personally attacked or made RL threats to anyone, nor has Rico that I'm aware of, but it's definitely amusing, watching you flip out.

Can't smell your own stink, can you? Mrs. P. U.

 

[Draxous]

THANKS KAT!!!
A whole guild to take on a character who's invested 175.0 skill points into a skill set.

Awesome... that's balanced.

To smoke bomb also needs 50 Ninja so it requires an investment of 225 skill points to hide instantly. For that you can get Detect and Track at GM and still have 25 points advantage over the stealth template.

put on some +ninja skill jewels and we're even...

but only do so after you've figured out why this "I've invested 175 skill points" argument has no merit.

 

[Shh!]

poison fields (take time to cast... by that point, I'm stealthing away... which direction? no one knows but me.)

conflag pots (if I miss... or just used it... I can't use it again because it has a timer.)

pots (greater explosion won't go off for 3 seconds... by that time I've stealthed off to safety.)

Earthquake (take time to cast... stealther is long gone.)

meteor swarm, chain lightning (take time to cast... stealther is long gone.)

strangle (stealther eats an enchanted apple right before hiding... yay)

poison strike (takes time to cast, by that point... stealther is long gone.)

detect hidden skill (I detect stealther and they instantly hide, stealth off while I'm waiting to use the skill again.)

So what your saying is it takes timing to use all of these methods and that's too hard? Sorry, still can't buy into this fix either. It still makes thieves useless. However, I can buy in to removing smoke bombs, changing the timer on detect hidden, buffing things like wither and holy light, etc.

This whole argument, all I hear is one side crying that it's too hard and the other side crying that they like it easy. There's no true compromise. It's either all or nothing...

 

[Bennos Morales]

So what your saying is it takes timing to use all of these methods and that's too hard? Sorry, still can't buy into this fix either. It still makes thieves useless. However, I can buy in to removing smoke bombs, changing the timer on detect hidden, buffing things like wither and holy light, etc.

This whole argument, all I hear is one side crying that it's too hard and the other side crying that they like it easy. There's no true compromise. It's either all or nothing...

It's not really "All or Nothing" It will be when/if the devs do something about it. Name one change they have made without overpowering someother template due to changing others?

Learn to deal with what you have here on Siege. Like EA cares about us anyway....

 

[kelmo]

I care Benny. *hugs*

 

[Speedy Orkit]

You've never made RL attacks on peoples character?

You've never spewed obscenities?

You've never flipped your gourd?

lol!

Even though, you're lying... do you want a cookie or something?

I know that I've never personally attacked or made RL threats to anyone, nor has Rico that I'm aware of, but it's definitely amusing, watching you flip out.

Can't smell your own stink, can you? Mrs. P. U.

I threatened to make whoopee with Forsaken if he didn't Xheal me.

 

[kelmo]

You've never made RL attacks on peoples character?

You've never spewed obscenities?

You've never flipped your gourd?

lol!

Even though, you're lying... do you want a cookie or something?

I know that I've never personally attacked or made RL threats to anyone, nor has Rico that I'm aware of, but it's definitely amusing, watching you flip out.

Can't smell your own stink, can you? Mrs. P. U.

*chuckles* This post is really funny. You win a cookie.

 

[Bennos Morales]

It's not really "All or Nothing" It will be when/if the devs do something about it. Name one change they have made without overpowering someother template due to changing others?

Learn to deal with what you have here on Siege. Like EA cares about us anyway....

Oh, wait I do know of one....Arms Lore for Crafters.

 

[Draxous]

So what your saying is it takes timing to use all of these methods and that's too hard? Sorry, still can't buy into this fix either. It still makes thieves useless. However, I can buy in to removing smoke bombs, changing the timer on detect hidden, buffing things like wither and holy light, etc.

This whole argument, all I hear is one side crying that it's too hard and the other side crying that they like it easy. There's no true compromise. It's either all or nothing...

No. I did indeed express a compromise... go read about it a few posts up.


Also, it takes timing to use those methods? Whaaa....?

Make it so like the reveal spell works? Like things like that? but I'm sure that would be even less well received.


I also don't see how this would kill thieves... not sure what this has to do with the stealing skill unless you too are abusing to make easy get-aways.

Oh... go figure!