A proposed idea to finally FIX fel/pvp/stealing/risk v reward!!/INSURANCE!!

[Dicimiie]

If Fel had never allowed insurance to begin with, a lot of headaches would have been alleviated. Let me explain:

1) If it had never been possible to insure items in Fel, the PvPers would have settled for what they were willing to lose. This would have alleviated those PvPers complaining that it takes them millions in gold to get their PvP suit made.

2) If PvPers weren't relying on artifacts and very high end items for PvP, crafters would actually have someone to sell items to again. In fact, I think that the lower runic hammers would actually have a use, as you could create an item with a couple of added properties relatively cheap, making them not so difficult to lose, but still wanted.

3) If Fel had never been insurable, the thieves would still have their role, since there would actually be somewhat worthwhile items to steal again. They would never have started complaining that an entire style of play became next to useless. There really is no excuse for entire class to become obsolete. UO was supposed to be a free form game, with near endless possibilities. But insurance killed off an entire class of players.

These are just a few things that popped into my head while reading this thread. I'm sure given a bit more time, I could come up with more.

In essence, I'm all for the removal of isnurance in Fel. Bring the concept of skill to the forefront, rather than having items be the main focus.

 

[Spree]

If they used the disguise kit, I would notice the white hair and the crappy npc name and kill them if they got close enough to snoop.

You can dye the hair. the thing that sucks about it is you have to redo all your macros when you use it.

 

[Radun]

Stay in school? Lol, you realize I was responding to your whine about taking away the items people worked so hard to get. You're one of the people who took it away from my generation in UO

Yeah, stay in school kid. Don't worry, you'll learn how to comprehend what you're reading eventually.

I took something away from 'your generation'? What makes you think I didn't play the same time as you did? The fact that you gave up on the game because you couldn't adapt makes you a different generation than me?
Even if you're 'a different generation', WHAT did I take from you by sticking with the game (even though I didn't like the changes at the time) and working my way up in the new system?
The fact that you're a quitter and gave up means that I should have all my hard work taken away from me?
Your 'response' had nothing to do with my post that you quoted.
You obviously didn't even understand the point of the post.
my post: "People have put too much work into their equipment over the years to take that away from them now."
your response: "UH, I QUITTED CUZ I DIDN'T WANNA PUT IN THE WORK! DURRR"

----

Now to respond to to some actual points that've been made about super dragons being too powerful, and not being able to pvp naked anymore...

Yes it's true... The entire game has been balanced around players having high-end equipment. Taking away our good equipment would mean they have to re-balance every aspect of the game.

 

[Righteous]

If the Fel side of the gate game wasn't item dependent, and people reverted to wearing cheap, easy to acquire Crafted equipment would that prevent or encourage more to go? You'd risk loosing more but much less cost than if you wore an artifact suit. It's Risk vs Reward not Insurance vs Reward we're talking about.

Nothing in this thread mentions removing Insurance just invalidating it in Fel only. There would be a place for Item based play, Trammel, Tokuno, Malas, Ilshnear, and inside you own fel home where your safe and sound.

I'm assuming your not a PvPer, if I'm right your characters are built around a PvM concept they way you balance skills and equip is different. Take out Item Dependency and you alter this where there's a much closer relation between PvM and PvP setups leaving you more of a fighting chance.


I don't think it should either, but since their is one, the Risk vs Reward aspect of Fel needs to be brought back. Insurance has killed it, in combination with item Dependency. Fix those issues in Fel, and you assist in balancing PvP. You give non-PvPer's a boost so they can accept the risk more readily, and you give the pre-AoS crowd that would return to UO a reason to do so.

You ever play Siege? AW's and Balrons got the same boost there. People still do peerless, kills AW's and Balrons, Champ Spawns and everything you do now on Prodo Shards without insurance. It can work this would make Fel on Prodo Shards almost exactly like Siege minus the RoT.
What it comes down too is anyone that PvPs in Fel, and can't conceive of the idea of PvP in Fel without Insurance is just as Candied, and Care Bear as the people they make fun of in Trammel. They rely on it, it's how they beat the odds, it's what's taken the Risk out of PvP and Fel.

All this proposal is going to do is make it even easier for the super guilds that rule fel now to keep there strangehold on Power Scrolls. As it stands right now the super guilds run around in packs and slaughter the groups that try to do anything in fel its not risk vs reward its lets see how many trammels we can slaughter three or four to one and steal thier stuff.

If you want that much risk vs reward why dont you play siege and leave the rest of the shards alone.

Righteous

 

[ShadowJack]

If you took insurance out of fel, there would be a new generation, old and new that came to take over fel.



But you dont' need gear to play this game, that's where the devs screwed up.


Gear was supposed to fix ties and templates that were too common, Two maxed out chars vs maxed out chars *skill wise*

in order to bring gear to fel, it had to be insured.


Now to throw a fastball, EA should revive the less civilized times. Hell it would even add to the damn game story.

 

[ColterDC]

Another no skill leg humper who is still crying after 8 years that their worthless garbage playstyle is gone.

Know why thieves were nerfed into oblivion? Because it's a no skill, no risk, all reward playstyle that no one but the people playing thieves want around.

You're wrong...

Playing a thief did take skill. The reason it was nerfed into oblivion was that if you played it right it could be a no risk high reward skill.

Thieves definitely took more skill to play than a click n' stick... err... warrior

That's entirely your opinion.

Running around naked with nothing to lose and everything to gain takes NO SKILL. What's next..you going to tell me playing a stealth dismount tamer takes skill too?

Not sure where your warrior comment is directed at. OH.. I guess because I have a picture of a warrior in my sig means that's all I know how to play right?......dumbass.

 

[Radun]

If you want that much risk vs reward why dont you play siege and leave the rest of the shards alone.

Because they don't want to be forced to deal with other aspects of that shard... They would rather force unwanted aspects of that shard on the rest of us, instead.

 

[ShadowJack]

like you did to us after six years of playing?

 

[ColterDC]

1) If it had never been possible to insure items in Fel, the PvPers would have settled for what they were willing to lose. This would have alleviated those PvPers complaining that it takes them millions in gold to get their PvP suit made.

The only part I will agree with is that the months of PvM grinding to earn gold and items in order to pvp would be severely lessened.

2) If PvPers weren't relying on artifacts and very high end items for PvP, crafters would actually have someone to sell items to again.

9 out of 10 players who PvP have their own crafters, so this whole crafters would be back in business again is pure BS.

3) If Fel had never been insurable, the thieves would still have their role, since there would actually be somewhat worthwhile items to steal again. They would never have started complaining that an entire style of play became next to useless. There really is no excuse for entire class to become obsolete.

There is a really good reason why the thief class was nerfed into oblivion. The very people on here begging for a return to those days are probably the very same people who forced the Devs to remove their playstyle in the first place. I have no sympathy for all you ex-leg humpers who griefed everyone so badly that it forced a game altering change.

 

[Radun]

If you took insurance out of fel, there would be a new generation, old and new that came to take over fel.

Wrong.:loser: It would be the same people, just fewer of them.

But you dont' need gear to play this game

Wrong. Well, unless you just want to hang out and play non-combat-oriented characters.

Gear was supposed to fix ties and templates that were too common, Two maxed out chars vs maxed out chars *skill wise*

in order to bring gear to fel, it had to be insured.

Double wrong.:loser:

 

[ShadowJack]

If you call us a leg humper again, I'm going to complain to the mod. Personal insults have no place in this thread.

 

[ColterDC]

If you want that much risk vs reward why dont you play siege and leave the rest of the shards alone.

Because they don't want to be forced to deal with other aspects of that shard... They would rather force unwanted aspects of that shard on the rest of us, instead.

They don't want to go play Siege because on Siege the amount of "easy targets" is very small. Most of these ex-leg humpers want easy targets who are not going to fight back at all.

Also they know if they did play on Siege they would have to content with a shard full of fellow thieves, stealth archers and stealth tamers. They have no interest in being a thief on a difficult shard like Seige.

Instead they come on here using the guise of "balancing pvp" and "putting crafters back in business" both concepts of course are complete BS since pvp would probably be more unbalanced and everyone has their own crafter now anyways.

Their true agenda is simply to revive a playstyle that was rightly trashed as a complete failure years ago.

 

[ColterDC]

If you call us a leg humper again, I'm going to complain to the mod.

Go cry to the Mods.........LEG HUMPER!!!!!

 

[Righteous]

Because they don't want to be forced to deal with other aspects of that shard... They would rather force unwanted aspects of that shard on the rest of us, instead.

Agreed. If I wanted to play with the siege ruleset I would play siege, thats just my opinion.

Righteous

 

[Nexus]

1) If it had never been possible to insure items in Fel, the PvPers would have settled for what they were willing to lose. This would have alleviated those PvPers complaining that it takes them millions in gold to get their PvP suit made.

The only part I will agree with is that the months of PvM grinding to earn gold and items in order to pvp would be severely lessened.

It would kill item based play in Fel, striking a blow to the "Uber" template or Template of the week. It would make Balancing easier as you can't count on having the items needed to play beyond the skill cap. Once it became apparent that Items aren't worth Risking in Fel, gold doesn't become a huge factor in play anymore.

2) If PvPers weren't relying on artifacts and very high end items for PvP, crafters would actually have someone to sell items to again.

9 out of 10 players who PvP have their own crafters, so this whole crafters would be back in business again is pure BS.

And 9 out of 10 PvPers would spend the time collecting and filling Bods for low end runic to make equipment, low end equipment that can be produced at a reasonable cost and sold? It might not fix the entire crafting market but it would help.

3) If Fel had never been insurable, the thieves would still have their role, since there would actually be somewhat worthwhile items to steal again. They would never have started complaining that an entire style of play became next to useless. There really is no excuse for entire class to become obsolete.

There is a really good reason why the thief class was nerfed into oblivion. The very people on here begging for a return to those days are probably the very same people who forced the Devs to remove their playstyle in the first place. I have no sympathy for all you ex-leg humpers who griefed everyone so badly that it forced a game altering change.

Time have changed, game mechanics have change drastically. The only change from the current one's being asked for a look at is Insuranced/Blessed items in Fel, not any of the others that would negatively effect thieves as much as everyone else, such as passive reveal. As times and mechanics have changed there is no reason not to re-evaluate the Thief Class, PvP, and the Risk vs Reward systems in Fel and their place in it.

I didn't play a thief years ago I didn't scream Nerf them either...Thief proofing a pack is easy just because you and others can't seem to figure out how to do so doesn't mean the entire play style needs to be nerfed, and remain so, once again if you can't learn, or adapt then this is a proposal for Fel only. Trammel is just the other side of the moongate.

 

[Radun]

like you did to us after six years of playing?

*I* didn't make the changes that introduced the new magic item system. I didn't propose them. I didn't support them.

I *DID* stick by the game, instead of giving up and being a quitter (like you). I did play under the new system and work my way up to the level I'm at now.

Continuing to play through changes =/= forcing changes on others.

AND:
Unlike this change... when they released AOS, and made those changes introducing item properties, insurance, etc, there wasn't already a server set up with those things already set up.

 

[ShadowJack]

You are holding on to a dying game. So were we.


If you adjust it to fit both styles of play FEL AND TRAM

then you bring back both playstyles.


Fel is watered down, and should be just as dangerous as FEL in 97 was.


This game isn't about gear, it's player interaction. If you didn't have ubergear, then maybe you'd have to adjust and learn to be good with what you had.


I'm more anti-insurance than pro-thief.

Even if the thief class never existed, I'm still disgusted that the game is so spoiled now compared to how it used to be. No one ever bought a peice of equip that cost 10 mil.


The game wasn't that safe to even own or have 10 mil.


Fel shouldn't be safe

Tram should


figure out what goes where by that comment


The people who are dominate in fel now, wouldn't be with no insurance I guarantee that. Unless they were good enough to play without rezzing with stat, skill, and affect changing mods.


Making fel less item based makes UO the best of both worlds. For the gamers who play both playstyles.



You take it out of fel, and everyone who enjoys playing that type of game is going to return. I'll reactive my three accounts if it's done right.



If you are in fel now, and proposing to keep it like it is, then you never played UO from the beginning, or you were to soft to make it.


Take it to tram, learn to fight without number crunching or gear and you'll have more of a challenge and more fun



it's so simple you don't get it.

 

[ShadowJack]

Store your riches in Trammel, not in fel lol


(sorry for the bible joke)

 

[ShadowJack]

like you did to us after six years of playing?

*I* didn't make the changes that introduced the new magic item system. I didn't propose them. I didn't support them.

I *DID* stick by the game, instead of giving up and being a quitter (like you). I did play under the new system and work my way up to the level I'm at now.

Continuing to play through changes =/= forcing changes on others.

AND:
Unlike this change... when they released AOS, and made those changes introducing item properties, insurance, etc, there wasn't already a server set up with those things already set up.

By your own statement, then why are you fighting change?

 

[Radun]

"DURRRR WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING CHANGE THEN HUH!"

Because the change being proposed is the abolition of a prior change.
It's not change, it's changing back.
'If you like the change that let you keep your stuff when you die, then why aren't you supporting the change that stops you from keeping your stuff when you die?' duh!

If you quit the game because it changed, then why are you promoting change?
Because the change you're promoting is the abolition of a change, which you didn't like.

 

[Righteous]

You are holding on to a dying game. So were we.


If you adjust it to fit both styles of play FEL AND TRAM

then you bring back both playstyles.


Fel is watered down, and should be just as dangerous as FEL in 97 was.


This game isn't about gear, it's player interaction. If you didn't have ubergear, then maybe you'd have to adjust and learn to be good with what you had.


I'm more anti-insurance than pro-thief.

Even if the thief class never existed, I'm still disgusted that the game is so spoiled now compared to how it used to be. No one ever bought a peice of equip that cost 10 mil.


The game wasn't that safe to even own or have 10 mil.


Fel shouldn't be safe

Tram should


figure out what goes where by that comment


The people who are dominate in fel now, wouldn't be with no insurance I guarantee that. Unless they were good enough to play without rezzing with stat, skill, and affect changing mods.


Making fel less item based makes UO the best of both worlds. For the gamers who play both playstyles.



You take it out of fel, and everyone who enjoys playing that type of game is going to return. I'll reactive my three accounts if it's done right.



If you are in fel now, and proposing to keep it like it is, then you never played UO from the beginning, or you were to soft to make it.


Take it to tram, learn to fight without number crunching or gear and you'll have more of a challenge and more fun



it's so simple you don't get it.

I'm a ten year vet. I was around when if you left a guard zone you would get wacked by hidden archers or mages. I don't want to play a game where I have to have ten people come with me just to kill an orc. Most of my friends have long ago quit becuase of the rempant PKing during that time. I want to be able to go do a champ spawn with a few friends and get power scrolls not have a 5 hour PvP free for all and then lose the champ because somebody lured it away when I was healing up or running around fighting. I dont have 10 or 15 hours a day to play a game, I have a job and a life outside of this game. I believe most people will agree with me that I play UO to relax and unwind not curse at the screen every five minutes because I have to go get rezed and regear up.

Righteous

 

[Radun]

If you are in fel now, and proposing to keep it like it is, then you never played UO from the beginning, or you were to soft to make it.

Wrong again!:loser:

Are you trying to set the record for how many wrong statements one person can make, or are they multiple attempts at setting the record for how wrong one statement can be?

 

[Dicimiie]

The only part I will agree with is that the months of PvM grinding to earn gold and items in order to pvp would be severely lessened.

It's a tough one to argue, and I think most if not all PvPers would agree with this one.

9 out of 10 players who PvP have their own crafters, so this whole crafters would be back in business again is pure BS.

I seriously doubt that the 90% of PvPers would take the time and effort to go BoD collecting on the off chance they get a hammer so they can create just a decent weapon when they could buy one at a reasonable price simply by going to someone that actually enjoys BoDs and making/repairing weapons. It just doesn't make sense. If even 30% of PvPers utilized outside crafters for their goods, it would be a bautiful thing. Actually, I'd be hanging out in Fel Britain at the forge if such a thing were to happen.

There is a really good reason why the thief class was nerfed into oblivion. The very people on here begging for a return to those days are probably the very same people who forced the Devs to remove their playstyle in the first place. I have no sympathy for all you ex-leg humpers who griefed everyone so badly that it forced a game altering change.

I'll say it again. There is absolutely no reason to destroy a playstyle after it's been introduced... none. As has been said many times before, there are ways to protect what is stealable. And to be quite honest, I'd much rather have a thief take one of my items than have a PvPer kill me and take all of them.

As far as insurance being created to kill the thief class goes, I certainly hope that you don't honestly believe that is why insurance was created. It makes no sense. I would guess that thieving became an unforeseen casualty of insurance. The sam way the old-style crafter became an unforeseen casualty of it, as well as repair deeds.

Oh by the way... I have never played a thief. Ever. Not even a Doom Thief. I can, however, see the thrill in the theft and subsequent chase.

 

[yanaki2]

i have a better idea of how we can fix all of this fel/trammel B.S

give everyone who wants to pvp a special transfer token, so they can move all of there junk to a new shard where they can pvp any where they want, let them be able to move everything they own and all there houses there and have them get a one time transfer. hell even remove the guard zones and anything else the pvp'rs can complain about and let them goto town, turn the rest of the shards to "carebear" land like the other 99.999% of the playerbase plays and leave the rest of us the #$#%%# alone. that way i dont have to worry about going to fel and meeting with some people with the social skills of a naked molerat who only gets a thrill out of how badly they can frustrate you.

 

[Radun]

There is absolutely no reason to destroy a playstyle after it's been introduced...

Really? Even if the playstyle revolves around griefing other players? Even if the rewards are disproportionate to the level of risk?
Keep in mind that this is (by far) not the only time a whole class of characters have been nerfed.

As far as insurance being created to kill the thief class goes, I certainly hope that you don't honestly believe that is why insurance was created. It makes no sense. I would guess that thieving became an unforeseen casualty of insurance.

Do you really think they didn't see it coming when they said "Insured items cannot be stolen"? They thought thieves would still have nice stuff to steal from players, because players wouldn't always insure?
Keep in mind that they added a bunch of stealables at the same time, to give thieves a reward that's actually proportionate, and doesn't require griefing others.

 

[ShadowJack]

there's plenty enough room in the game for both.

like I said, the game isn't doing well



incorporate all game styles greif or not.


It's easy enough to not go to fel.

all of the current fel attractions (legal anyways) can be moved to trammel or changed to adapt


with the new skills, blessed items, and etc... the thief wouldn't be the same char the vets are used to.


the pk either

 

[ColterDC]

the game isn't doing well

Go look at some of the games that are doing well (at least in terms of # of subs)

None of them have a class that allows you to steal from other players.

Oops...there goes your entire arguement.

 

[ShadowJack]

So what you are saying is...


there is no game out there that those types of players want to pay to play.


Uo was one of them and lost that money and that player base



duhhhhhh

 

[Loqucious]

I'm ok with this idea. But I have one thought. The devs have spent a lot of time trying to balance PVP with the system as is (i.e. all the items). My question would be, if there would be some great skill or player type imbalance that would just throw it all out of whack. Can we go back to the old days where everyone just threw on GM armor, grabbed a GM wep and whacked each other. I would LOVE that, but I'm not sure it's doable.

 

[ColterDC]

So UO lost a few thousand accounts of the griefers that quit. Who cares if they come back, the game is better off without their type around even if it means a few less subs. Not to mention how many subs would be lost if they did let those scumbags resume their greifing ways. You may gain a few 100 accounts, but you'd lose even more.

 

[ShadowJack]

So UO lost a few thousand accounts of the griefers that quit. Who cares if they come back, the game is better off without their type around even if it means a few less subs. Not to mention how many subs would be lost if they did let those scumbags resume their greifing ways. You may gain a few 100 accounts, but you'd lose even more.

the few hundred playing fel? there's room for you in trammel. you didn't make fel popular, I'm trying to, while ajusting gameplay to fit those players.



Fel isn't better off without those around, fel is supposed to be for the murderers and thieves, that's why trammel was made.


Sorry, your ideas are narrowminded and dumb. You should go post in another thread *sp* where your type of playstyle and posting style fit. Your type of posting doesn't fit in this kind of thread.


there isn't room for you here even though we have unlimited replies and an unlimited amount of opinions to post. You are obsolete and don't belong, go post in another games forums.



I'm done with responding to you, you are clueless.

 

[yanaki2]

PERSONNALY IM GETTING TIRED OF THE B.S THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE PUTTING UP, NO ONE BUT A EXTREAMLY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE PLAYER BASE CARE ABOUT PVP.


you keep complaining about how the game is turning into wow, big hairy deal, this game has some elements in it wow will neve have in a million years. but you should learn from there example, they dont have forced pvp where you can be ganked by anyone anywhere like you do in fel. sure there are pvp shards where you can pvp, each side had a clear cut enemy. not some griefer free for all. also in that game you grief a person enough you get your account banned... the logic behind it is very simple, ban the person causing greif or he will end up costing you account after account from frustrated people = loss of profit.. on non pvp shards you can still pvp in very controlled and mostly fair environments. 11 MILLION ACCOUNTS MEANS SOMETHING IS WORKING PEOPLE!!!!

people do not want to go where they can be attacked for no reason, where people can taunt and torment them, show how L33T they are and otherwise act obnoxious. they do not want to have there hard earned equipment stolen by some jerk who was hiding in the shadows. id sooner drop my arties in the trashcan then let some #@#%$@# who thinks he all that loot it from my corpse. granted there any many class acts in felucia and im certain that not all the pvp'rs are low lifes preying on whatever dope happens to be stupid enough to wander by. but there is enough of them to discourage the mass majority from ever going there save for maybe houseing. hmm... go figure...

 

[ShadowJack]

I'm ok with this idea. But I have one thought. The devs have spent a lot of time trying to balance PVP with the system as is (i.e. all the items). My question would be, if there would be some great skill or player type imbalance that would just throw it all out of whack. Can we go back to the old days where everyone just threw on GM armor, grabbed a GM wep and whacked each other. I would LOVE that, but I'm not sure it's doable.

This is my main concern with removing insurance.


I think it will take a hell of a lot of work, but think it will better the game in the end, but has to be done just right, and not half assed like a lot of things have been done.

It needs to be done just right and that will be hard. but in the long run, I really think the game will benifit from it.


The will broaden it in a way that no other game exists, and appeal to all types of players, old and new who want that style of play.

it doesn't exist anymore.


with trammel, I could see the game adjusting to where fel and trammel are what guardzone and non guard zone used to be.


but it will take work and thinking, that's why I don't flame people who are against it unless I feel like they are a person with no long term gameplay experience who are flat out against it.



If all of the changes are so good, then were are the numbers in fel? that's all I'm asking.



change fel, and risk bringing back old and new players who want that style of play and who want to try it out (good guy or bad guy) because they can't in any other games.


it might not work, but by God, it might.


It just might.

 

[ShadowJack]

PERSONNALY IM GETTING TIRED OF THE B.S THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE PUTTING UP, NO ONE BUT A EXTREAMLY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE PLAYER BASE CARE ABOUT PVP.


you keep complaining about how the game is turning into wow, big hairy deal, this game has some elements in it wow will neve have in a million years. but you should learn from there example, they dont have forced pvp where you can be ganked by anyone anywhere like you do in fel. sure there are pvp shards where you can pvp, each side had a clear cut enemy. not some griefer free for all. also in that game you grief a person enough you get your account banned... the logic behind it is very simple, ban the person causing greif or he will end up costing you account after account from frustrated people = loss of profit.. on non pvp shards you can still pvp in very controlled and mostly fair environments. 11 MILLION ACCOUNTS MEANS SOMETHING IS WORKING PEOPLE!!!!

people do not want to go where they can be attacked for no reason, where people can taunt and torment them, show how L33T they are and otherwise act obnoxious. they do not want to have there hard earned equipment stolen by some jerk who was hiding in the shadows. id sooner drop my arties in the trashcan then let some #@#%$@# who thinks he all that loot it from my corpse. granted there any many class acts in felucia and im certain that not all the pvp'rs are low lifes preying on whatever dope happens to be stupid enough to wander by. but there is enough of them to discourage the mass majority from ever going there save for maybe houseing. hmm... go figure...

This is the kind of argument that I will support and respond to. it's not about griefing but bringing the thief back to fel, and taking some of the arties and such out of pvp. Those games that are making all of that money have proven people like that type of play, good. Uo can do that easily.

But the style of play those games don't support is what I'm talking about. Imagine if Uo had all the best parts of those other mmorpgs and the best parts of UO that those games didn't have.

depending on where you went to interact you could find all of those people, granted trammel being 100% safe for your items and your chars

Fel would be a more oldschool style play with no insurance and thieves. This is a drastic change in dynamics which could lead to a much larger playerbase. Fel is dead, there's room for it. There ARE people who like it.


I'm just saying diversify, fel could be the best thing any game has ever seen pvp wise and freedom wise (stealing etc..)


I'm not trying to bring something new into the game, I'm just trying to fix something that was a part of the game from the start and years afterwards. The new changes were needed, but they just took out the old way. Why not have both, you have the land and the dungeons to fit those players there, you can simply choose not to go to that area.


I firmly and absolutly believe that there is room in fel to make this possible.


I posted this in another thread, but I think it belongs in the main one, and this would be it I guess}}}}}}}


ok then reenforce your statement


if you don't want the change instead of trying to say no or say go to SP (going to Sp isn't even part of the discussion)


tell what you do in fel, that you really really enjoy. What about it makes the game your favorite thing to play? What do you do when you log in, do you have friends? Do you pvp?
Do you have safe resource gathering because it's dead? Or own a powerscroll spawn? Factions? Factions can have insurance, don't care, don't care about guardzones, they can have no stealing or pks at all for I care. reds have bucs den when it all comes down to it.

Share your experience so that I can better understand what's so good about it. Win me to your side.

 

[Yalp]

It's called Self Policing. Gank the guy until he can't afford to re-equip. If Player B starts cheating do the same to him. It doesn't take rocket science, police yourselves, don't make excuses for cheating. Scripting isn't a huge problem on Siege because they self police...prodo shards as a general rule don't.

EA does fix it, they put out patches that break the programs, but it's not a permanent fix because the program too can be updated. The players have to Self Police that's the only way Cheating can be brought down.


If your not good on you, if you aren't why bring up the merits of a program? Putting yourself in a position that appears to be a stance in favor of illegal programs would tend to lead people to think that you might be using them.

Self policing? I can't honestly address this w/o laughing. There are people playing this game who can't self police themselves out of a paper bag. If they were able to self police wonder how we've had such rampant duping, exploiting, hacking and cheating?

Because posting on forums is not face to face communication, you have to be careful about all the assumptions you make about people. I notice you do it to many people who don't agree with your premise. It's a lazy way to argue. Accuse your counterpart of being unscrupulous, thereby making his point invalid. Address the points, it makes you a better debater. If your assumptions about others are as far off the mark as your assumptions about me, then you have pretty much lost the debate.

So what is the purpose for your proposal? To make fel vibrant again? To return much of the player base to pvp? I can guarantee you, "the make everything cursed idea" will kill fel completely. If you truly want to better the game you have to take a good hard look at why peeps left fel by the busload. It's not an easy read mind you.. most die hard gankers and hackers scream bloody murder when forced to look in the mirror. But it's those very actions which have cause the current state of their beloved fel. However this might be a topic best left to another thread.

 

[ShadowJack]

I just wrote a guide how to steal in trammel


I'm going to ask people to do the same for fel and for SP and I'll show that the class isn't that dead, people just don't want to do it, or feel bad about the method



There is a place for thieves and murderers in the game and it is fel

if you want to fight back when a murderer attacks you or a thief steals then it's considered pvp




I don't care about anything but bringing fel back to an old feel so the players that like that style can play it.


It's not in any mmporpg except for silly stuff like fel now.


you shouldn't be so safe in a game. we shouldn't have to play such a game where people are babied all the time. making fel without insurance solves things you will never even think of, and just nerfs the people who like it back to trammel, where room can be made for them.


This is for the anti, not the safe, for the people who don't want to number crunch or use items to win, who want to think about how the game is played and how to beat the system to win. A thief challenges all forms of the game and teaches the thief how to make a better pvp char to fight other people and thieves.



It takes away value of items and item based pvp, it moves it towards another direction. With all of the skills and changes that are current in the game, it could be a good direction. It might not, we don't know. It's been 5 years of insurance in fel, let's try changing it up. FIVE years of fel insured items and the facet is dead and being kicked in the balls by the current pks and people who exploit it.


Bring us, the bad guys back to knock you down, so that you can stand up and learn to fight again. We'll always be there in the modern form of gimp pk, or the trammel thief (see post on thief forum)

you might as well make it fun or challenging.

 

[Nexus]

Self policing? I can't honestly address this w/o laughing. There are people playing this game who can't self police themselves out of a paper bag. If they were able to self police wonder how we've had such rampant duping, exploiting, hacking and cheating?

By self policing, I mean blow the whistle and point the finger at people cheating. Page on them, kill them every chance you get...That's the community policing themselves.

Because posting on forums is not face to face communication, you have to be careful about all the assumptions you make about people. I notice you do it to many people who don't agree with your premise. It's a lazy way to argue. Accuse your counterpart of being unscrupulous, thereby making his point invalid. Address the points, it makes you a better debater. If your assumptions about others are as far off the mark as your assumptions about me, then you have pretty much lost the debate.

By being more or less anonymous on a forum you can also say that one should present himself in a manner that avoids insinuation of things. Clarity of your posts would goes along way into getting a point across.

So what is the purpose for your proposal? To make fel vibrant again? To return much of the player base to pvp? I can guarantee you, "the make everything cursed idea" will kill fel completely. If you truly want to better the game you have to take a good hard look at why peeps left fel by the busload. It's not an easy read mind you.. most die hard gankers and hackers scream bloody murder when forced to look in the mirror. But it's those very actions which have cause the current state of their beloved fel. However this might be a topic best left to another thread.

How could it kill Fel? There's a working example of it not killing Fel right now, Siege. The difference in this proposal is this, while Siege leaves all facets open to PvP, and Thieves, this proposal still holds them limited to Felucca and eventually to PvP areas opened with the SA expansion. This Proposal re-introduces Risk into PvP, and at the same time adds a better sense of balance to PvP most dramatically at Spawns, through loss of Item dependent game play in Fel. Ok Look at this example based on how things are now.

Say 10 people from a Tram Based Guild that doesn't PvP or War are doing a Spawn. 5 Reds conduct a Raid, Number wise Odds are in the favor of the Trammies. 4 Of the Reds are attacking the 5th is hidden he's the Rez man. As any member of the other 4 dies they go to where he's hidden off out of the way and Rez and heals them. 30 seconds or less he's back fighting eventually they will wear the 10 players down because they Don't have the Experience, or knowledge of how to combat this tactic.

Under the Proposal....
10 Trammies are at a Spawn in Fel, 5 Reds Raid 1 is off Rezzing. The 10 manage to kill a few and they go to Rez, they are still not able to rejoin the conflict because they are naked. It's easier for players to Hold the spawn if they have superior numbers, why? Because there is an actual risk to dying you die your out of the fight till you can re-equip. Now the 10 have lost a few who are out of the fight also most likely Now the Spawn is more of a challenge for them, if another Raid comes before their friends can return....They are weaker. Spawns return to a more challenging game play addition because it's not based on Item Dependent Templates, and ability for quick turn around. The Reds still have advantage of experience and tactics, but the loss of Items balances out this to a degree bring a more even, yet more challenging style of game play into existence.

Ok Lets look at Gate Fighting? which is about the only Non-Spawn related PvP left.

Trammies A, B, and C decide they want to Try PvP out. They don't need 200 mil suits built specifically for PvP nor do they have to tweak and realign an entire character template. They can throw on Average easy to acquire items and be on the same field as everyone else in Fel, if High Quality Expensive Items aren't worth wearing due to risk in terms of equipment cost. Provided they don't carry anything more than most PvPers do now, such as pots and bandages what are they really risking? 20-30k? That's what? 10-15 minutes killing Misama. Yea it can add up over the course of a day but it's not something that the average player can not afford or gain and acquire during normal PvM game play in a short period of time. If that player had the materials and other necessities to craft these items it comes out cheaper. While they Risk loosing more than before, they in effect aren't being harmed nearly as greatly. They are on a more even playing field yielding a better quality experience, which may encourage them to continue adventuring in that regard in the future.

This Proposal doesn't do anything but make Fel a Risk based, Advanced Play Facet. It doesn't take away from Siege because players still have the option of facing that risk or not, its as simple as hopping a moongate. It's a mix of old and new, something a portion of the player base asks for from time to time, except instead of a Old School Shard this is a Retro-style Facet.

 

[Radun]

So what is the purpose for your proposal? To make fel vibrant again? To return much of the player base to pvp? I can guarantee you, "the make everything cursed idea" will kill fel completely.

This made me laugh.
The purpose of this proposal has nothing to do with improving fel. The only people who stand to gain anything from this proposal are thieves. Everybody else loses.

 

[Radun]

instead of a Old School Shard this is a Retro-style Facet.

There's nothing retro about it.
Simply removing insurance doesn't make pvp anything like 'the good ol days'. Unlike the old days, I wouldn't be able to pvp naked. All the base damage levels of everything offensive are balanced towards having high resists. Unlike pre-aos, there would still be 5 damage types to balance for each suit you put on.... which means every time I die, I'd have to spend hours mixing and matching different pieces of armor to fill out a playable suit... that's before you take into account all the other properties.
Doesn't sound like my idea of fun.

P.S. You keep saying this change removes item dependent templates (everyone). it doesn't. everyone is still just as dependent on items, except instead of being able to acquire the gear and enjoy the game.... we'd be required to constantly acquire new items to replace the ones we lose, to the point that most people will have to spend more time preparing for pvp than they do actually pvping.

 

[Nexus]

Oh, sorry for excluding "from fel" at the end of "removing insurance"
You can have your insurance, just not in fel... yeah, that's like... you can have your motorbike, just not outside the garage!

There's plenty of risk in fel.. you don't need this half-baked idea.
being attacked/killed is the risk.
in order the balance the risk vs reward, if they remove insurance from fel, they'll have to give a lot more reward.
they don't come take your house away, when you don't win the lottery.

Then tell me who this hurts other than those that are more concerned about their pixel crack than balanced game play? The Devs can't balance PvP as long as Item based game play in the manner we have now allows players to far outstrip the skill cap. I hear post after post about balancing PvP, but no one it seems wants to take the most logical first step in making that happen.
If you think dying in Fel is Risk think again how long does it take you to get geared back up? 10-30 seconds? I watch it all evening while snooping marks, don't tell me dying is the risk it's no risk as it doesn't have any real effect anymore. No Stat Loss, No expulsion from T2A and Dungeons on death, whats the point of screaming Risk vs Reward if at most the risk you claim is a minor annoyance? If your worried about thieves well I can Thief proof a backpack for a total cost of 15 gold. When I say Thief proof I mean 100% thief proof.

 

[ShadowJack]

P.S. You keep saying this change removes item dependent templates (everyone). it doesn't. everyone is still just as dependent on items, except instead of being able to acquire the gear and enjoy the game.... we'd be required to constantly acquire new items to replace the ones we lose, to the point that most people will have to spend more time preparing for pvp than they do actually pvping.


radun....





You mean actually pvming. And losing gold to an overinflated economy would be a plus.


There would be more demand for items no one uses, as the meet in the middle and have a fair cost, but are common and easy to find


and a drop in high end rares and arties because people aren't using them as much and can get by without it.


face it, this game economy is so rich it needs some more loss put in. You guys are pampered too much, and playing this game for 11 years, I'd say that's a valid opinion.


So what if grandpa wants to skate board, he was surfing before you were ever born.

 

[Nexus]

P.S. You keep saying this change removes item dependent templates (everyone). it doesn't. everyone is still just as dependent on items, except instead of being able to acquire the gear and enjoy the game.... we'd be required to constantly acquire new items to replace the ones we lose, to the point that most people will have to spend more time preparing for pvp than they do actually pvping.

Who says you need those items to PvP?, thing is you don't that's the misconception that is causing all the fuss. You didn't need Vanq weapons to PvP 8 years ago, anymore than you need a high SSI, HLA, Hit spell weapon to PvP today. You didn't need Invul armor back then, you don't need a 200mil suit with 70 resists and high MR and Stat mods to PvP today. What has changed is the players attitude, towards thinking they need those things. The Game mechanics will still be there that these items allow you to benefit more from, you just won't be able to benefit from them beyond what what normal skill (as in the skill cap), and the few mods you'd get on what today is considered a junk suit would give. High End Items would still have a place, in Trammel, but item dependency wouldn't be the driving factor in advantage in PvP anymore as as you said if you insisted on using these types of items you'd spend more time replacing suits than PvPing, not to mention the overall cost of items. It's Players attitudes, and present day conceptions towards PvP that drawing the majority of the objection here, not the proposal has much in the way of true falt.

 

[Radun]

You mean actually pvming. And losing gold to an overinflated economy would be a plus.

Are you high?
No, I don't mean Pvming.... I mean sitting at a bag of crafted armor switching pieces around trying to get a combination of resists that will allow you to survive longer than 2 spells...
losing gold from the economy?! being looted when you die doesn't remove gold from the economy!

 

[Radun]

Then tell me who this hurts other than those that are more concerned about their pixel crack than balanced game play?

e v e r y o n e

EVERYONE who pvps in fel will be effected... not just the ones who like bright colors.

 

[Radun]

P.S. You keep saying this change removes item dependent templates (everyone). it doesn't. everyone is still just as dependent on items, except instead of being able to acquire the gear and enjoy the game.... we'd be required to constantly acquire new items to replace the ones we lose, to the point that most people will have to spend more time preparing for pvp than they do actually pvping.

Who says you need those items to PvP?, thing is you don't that's the misconception that is causing all the fuss. You didn't need Vanq weapons to PvP 8 years ago, anymore than you need a high SSI, HLA, Hit spell weapon to PvP today. You didn't need Invul armor back then, you don't need a 200mil suit with 70 resists and high MR and Stat mods to PvP today. What has changed is the players attitude, towards thinking they need those things. The Game mechanics will still be there that these items allow you to benefit more from, you just won't be able to benefit from them beyond what what normal skill (as in the skill cap), and the few mods you'd get on what today is considered a junk suit would give. High End Items would still have a place, in Trammel, but item dependency wouldn't be the driving factor in advantage in PvP anymore as as you said if you insisted on using these types of items you'd spend more time replacing suits than PvPing, not to mention the overall cost of items. It's Players attitudes, and present day conceptions towards PvP that drawing the majority of the objection here, not the proposal has much in the way of true falt.

Who says you need those items? You play siege. do people run around pvping naked? NO
I'm not talking about 200m suits. I'm talking about the basic necessities.
I'm not talking about spending more time acquiring high end items than pvping... I'm talking about spending more time rearranging crappy armor pieces to make throw-away suits than pvping.

I'm not saying 'if you insist on using good stuff' you'll spend more time preparing than pvping. I'm saying that the game is balanced so that if you're naked you're going to die in 2 spells, so you still have to spend more time preparing (because you have to balance the resists on a suit by switching pieces on and off) than actual pvping, even if you use the low end stuff.
Even if you have an unlimited supply of armor pieces... You'd still have to spend more time rearranging them into suits, than actually pvping.

 

[ShadowJack]

e v e r y o n e

EVERYONE who pvps in fel will be effected... not just the ones who like bright colors.

wrong... everyone that plays fel now


which is almost no one


and away from yew gate and away from ps spawns, then it it's VERY close to no one

 

[Radun]

O, thanks for correcting me... Yes, everyone who plays fel would be effected, not just the ones who pvp there (and/or like bright colors)

but, why do you get to exclude the gate areas and champ spawns from the head count? Do you think without insurance, people would start pvping in different places than they do right now? sheesh
You could just as easily say 'almost nobody uses Malas', if we exclude Luna/Doom.

almost nobody uses tokuno.... or ilshenar....

Since when was 'not as many people use it as there used to be' a justification for ruining something for the people who DO still use it?

p.s. almost nobody uses a thief.
away from this thread and away from the thief forum then "it it's" VERY close to no one

 

[UONoob08]

Honestly, if you "go to Fel" you don't belong there.

"people won't take their best items."

Those all smell of carebear land players........

Been playing in Fel since launch and wish they would have made a one way gate to trammel.

Insurance- yes it carebeared Fel so "they" could/would come to Fel.

Let me guess- if you even played back then... any weapon force and above and armor that was hardening and above stayed in your bank.

 

[UONoob08]

I'm a ten year vet. I was around when if you left a guard zone you would get wacked by hidden archers or mages. I don't want to play a game where I have to have ten people come with me just to kill an orc. Most of my friends have long ago quit becuase of the rempant PKing during that time. I want to be able to go do a champ spawn with a few friends and get power scrolls not have a 5 hour PvP free for all and then lose the champ because somebody lured it away when I was healing up or running around fighting. I dont have 10 or 15 hours a day to play a game, I have a job and a life outside of this game. I believe most people will agree with me that I play UO to relax and unwind not curse at the screen every five minutes because I have to go get rezed and regear up.

Righteous

Simply Fel is not for you.
Trammel is for your playstyle.

 

[ShadowJack]

O, thanks for correcting me... Yes, everyone who plays fel would be effected, not just the ones who pvp there (and/or like bright colors)

but, why do you get to exclude the gate areas and champ spawns from the head count? Do you think without insurance, people would start pvping in different places than they do right now? sheesh
You could just as easily say 'almost nobody uses Malas', if we exclude Luna/Doom.

almost nobody uses tokuno.... or ilshenar....

Since when was 'not as many people use it as there used to be' a justification for ruining something for the people who DO still use it?

p.s. almost nobody uses a thief.
away from this thread and away from the thief forum then "it it's" VERY close to no one

good point


lets fix fel, the forum and the game by taking out item insurance, and getting people that like that style of play actually playing again



thx for the help