A new abuse of a ninja spell with taming that needs to be addressed

[imported_revenant2]

<blockquote><hr>

If you're going to scream for yet another nerf to Non PvP Tamers and their templates, why don't we just ask the devs to make everyone have an automatic 1 follower. Afterall, I"m using Ninja to transform MYSELF, hello?????. Why should it be a control slot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I see what you mean but I'm not sure? You should explain this in more detail.

If the UO people feel that it is undesireable to drive Ninja skill into Taming templates simply as a tool to allow mounted movement speed with 5 pet slots occupied (with or without consideration of the new 5-slot dragon's impact), I think most of us sense that the easiest solution for them is to make ninja animal form take a control slot. Doing it that way will use the pre-existing code to deliver most of the desired behavior correctly. But it's not the only way to do it, sure. It's just what would take the least amount of code change (and has the least potential for the introduction of new bugs).

 

[imported_revenant2]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

...So there you go. What the rest of us can deduce or intuitively sensed has now been explained for the minority of us who couldn't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you've gone from a presumption to a deduction but you still dont know that is why the devs did it. I always love the posts that end up insulting someone else...just because you dont have the ability to make your point clearly doesn't mean I dont get it. Try making sense and not using deductions that are clear only to you and close friends. This is a public forum. Folks aren't always going to agree with you or understand your point of view.

Safe Travels, Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

If my explanation as to why the 5-slot dragon could only have been implemented in an effort to prevent tamers from being mounted while using one is unclear to you, then there's really nothing more I can say to help.

It really is immedietely clear to tamers why it was done, and intuitively sensed by many others. I expect that my detailed explanation reads like a kindergarten lesson to these people.

An additional point btw...It was not necessarily done to make them hell to tame. I walked up to mine, alone, and tamed it with zero deaths and without being attacked. Follower of Honor virtue, end of story.

Honor takes time and effort to build on a tamer, and with taming an individual new-dragon being a one-time thing in the relationship between tamer and dragon, I don't expect using Honor to safely tame one of these new dragons will be considered an abuse (heh).

 

[Guest]

OK me being a trammie and all but isn't the normal tactic bye most pvpers when they deem a template as Gimp is to come here and publicly condemn it and make a billion separate posts about it and that the devs have to change it right this second or they all are going to quite (which most never do) while they secretly go and change there own templates to the new uber one and hang there hat on the excuse of well everyone else is doing it.

 

[imported_The_Dude_]

I read this whole post and out of everyone theres like 2 people who know what they are talking about. These new dragons are so damn slow it doesnt matter if your on foot there pathetic.

Pet balls are the problem and have been the problem forever. Its not some pathetic ninja tamer. Its the ability to recall your pet to you every second while running at full speed.

Pet balls need to not work if you flag. Also a serious timer needs to be put on them. Just like apples and potions.

While your at it fix the bug where te tamer flags then pet balls his pets back to him when he fails to kill you and his pets are blue making you able to get guard whacked.

Id rather be dismounted by someone with a dragon then someone with a beetle bake combo. Armor corruption and seconds later your dead. The dragons are entirely way to slow to give a damn about.

 

[MadTexan]

<blockquote><hr>

Gah!!!! Leave the animal forms alone! Its not the animal forms that need to be adjusted,the dragons need to be "adjusted".....


[/ QUOTE ]No, the OP is correct. Anything that allows you to move at mounted speed should use a control slot.

 

[imported_Daelomin]

animal form = 1 pet slot

while they are at it... remove ability to pot and use evasion as animal...

 

[MadTexan]

<blockquote><hr>

Isn't that always the answer? Tamers get an uber pet,and to balance it,another skill get whacked with a nerf stick....

[/ QUOTE ]How does requiring animal form to use a control slot constitute a nerf?

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

...If my explanation as to why the 5-slot dragon could only have been implemented in an effort to prevent tamers from being mounted while using one is unclear to you, then there's really nothing more I can say to help.

[/ QUOTE ]

I follow your logic. It's too bad you aren't able to offer a clarification without feeling the need to insult folks. It's definetly a valid opinion on why they take 5 slots... but that's all it is. Until a Dev steps up and says "We made the new dragons take 5 slots because..." ...it's all speculation on your part. And that was my point all along... the basis of your entire post... is an assumption of what you think... the devs are thinking.

Here is what I know. None of my Ninja characters are tamers and I dont see why I should have my Ninja nerfed. The changes you are suggesting would affect all Ninja yet your main objection seems to be with tamers. So deal with taming issues... A lot of folks have brought up petballs. A lot of arguments for placing a timer on them or making other changes have made perfect sense to me so maybe I'm not reading at the kindergarden level after all.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[fred252]

It is intended. Just some smart gamers using what they have available to them.

Nothing to see here.... move along....

 

[fred252]

<blockquote><hr>

animal form = 1 pet slot

[/ QUOTE ]

No then you will be stuck at walking speed. There is really no problem. You have to use some skill points to be able to do it.

Guess what! It is available to everyone. You too can have a Greater Dragon and use the ninja pet form.

 

[Guest]

Normal Dragons don't take 4 Control Slots, they take 3. Here's what the Tameable Draconic Creatures take for Control Slots. Drakes take 2, Dragons take 3, WWs take 3, Hiryus take 4, Reptalons take 4, Great Wyrms take 5.

But yeah, i see no reason why any actual Ninja would gripe about Animal Form taking a Control Slot. It sure as hell wouldn't bug my Stealth/Fencer, the most impact it would do is one less Mirror Image, oh well.

And yeah, Pet Balls need the nerf more.

 

[imported_revenant2]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

...If my explanation as to why the 5-slot dragon could only have been implemented in an effort to prevent tamers from being mounted while using one is unclear to you, then there's really nothing more I can say to help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Until a Dev steps up and says "We made the new dragons take 5 slots because..." ...it's all speculation on your part. And that was my point all along... the basis of your entire post... is an assumption of what you think... the devs are thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good grief.

We don't go through life as mindless idiots who can understand and extrapolate nothing about our surroundings without seeing 100% proof positive verification of each and every thing that happens.

It would be fascinating if there were, somehow, a different primary reason for these new dragons to take 5 control slots, and forcing tamers to be on foot while controlling them was an unimportant side effect. Such as, perhaps, this is the beginning of a giant push to get tamers to work the Honor virtue hardcore. Cute thought, but I feel pretty sure that the now-increased value of Honor for tamers, while being positive from a design standpoint, is not the primary reason.

In the absence of Honor, there's also the value of getting friends to help you tame them - - having a peacer there, and healers to help keep you alive... these may be considered positive impacts to gameplay, but still, the biggest impact the 5-slot characteristic has throughout the dragon's relationship with the tamer is that the tamer can't be mounted. The taming of the dragon is a one time event, and then the dragon lasts until it disappears due to a pet-destroying bug (doh!).

If they wanted tamers to be unmounted while taming them but then able to ride a mount later, they could have coded the pet to magically change its control slots from 5 down to 4 the moment it tamed.

<blockquote><hr>

Here is what I know. None of my Ninja characters are tamers and I dont see why I should have my Ninja nerfed. The changes you are suggesting would affect all Ninja yet your main objection seems to be with tamers. So deal with taming issues... A lot of folks have brought up petballs. A lot of arguments for placing a timer on them or making other changes have made perfect sense to me

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't specifically back a solution that will affect pure ninjas. A means of preventing animal form ninjas from using 5-slot dragons without decreasing the number of mirror images or other NPC followers should be doable, if the UO people choose to go that route. I suspect it's more involved for them to implement that way, is all.

They may decide that the impact to a pure ninja of causing animal form to occupy a follower/pet slot is so minimalistic that they choose to go that route with no further tearing apart of the ninja-related code. They may also decide to implement a similar change in such a way that it doesn't decrease the number of mirror images that a ninja can summon (I'm not sure but I think that's the only affected ninja aspect?).

I don't have an opinion on how to handle the impact into pure ninja. I have one but I don't use all of his ninja capabilities extensively. If as an involved ninja user you want to discuss the details regarding the impact of making animal form take a control slot, now would be the time, while they are still deciding what to do.

<blockquote><hr>

so maybe I'm not reading at the kindergarden level after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point I suspect that you didn't read my explanation in a way where you paid attention to the points, or are pretending that it made no sense for the sake of argument.

 

[imported_revenant2]

<blockquote><hr>

Normal Dragons don't take 4 Control Slots, they take 3. Here's what the Tameable Draconic Creatures take for Control Slots. Drakes take 2, Dragons take 3, WWs take 3, Hiryus take 4, Reptalons take 4, Great Wyrms take 5.

But yeah, i see no reason why any actual Ninja would gripe about Animal Form taking a Control Slot. It sure as hell wouldn't bug my Stealth/Fencer, the most impact it would do is one less Mirror Image, oh well.

And yeah, Pet Balls need the nerf more.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh yeah oops.

I had in my head how regular Hiryus have dragon slayer vulnerability and take 4 slots. ******** that I wrote that... I think I should edit my prior posts for the sake of accuracy. That f*ckup doesn't affect the points in the posts, it's just inaccurate.

 

[Guest]

Making Animal Form take a Control Slot would only affect Mirror Images, making you able to summon 4 instead of 5. Even then it won't really affect Stealthers. Would only affect the Ninja/Tamers.

I tame Great Wyrms on my Tamer/Mage without Beatdown, Peace, Para, Honor, same way i tame everything else (Unless the creature has to be beatdown to subjugate to make taming possible in the first place.) Most of the time i don't have anyone else healing me and have to keep myself healed while taming them.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

...At this point I suspect that you didn't read my explanation in a way where you paid attention to the points, or are pretending that it made no sense for the sake of argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said this in an earlier post: I follow your logic.

I understand your point about the control slots. And now I've expressed my concern's about the Ninja's being hit with the nerf bat over a tamer issue.

Hopefully if the Devs take any action, it will be very carefully thought out.

I'm moving on... retiring from the thread.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[imported_revenant2]

I haven't said one thing or another about pet balls because I don't have an opinion, not because I wish to devalue that idea. The pet ball behavior has many implications for both pvp and pvm, I'll say that.

 

[imported_revenant2]

<blockquote><hr>

Making Animal Form take a Control Slot would only affect Mirror Images, making you able to summon 4 instead of 5. Even then it won't really affect Stealthers. Would only affect the Ninja/Tamers.

I tame Great Wyrms on my Tamer/Mage without Beatdown, Peace, Para, Honor, same way i tame everything else (Unless the creature has to be beatdown to subjugate to make taming possible in the first place.) Most of the time i don't have anyone else healing me and have to keep myself healed while taming them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds hard.

I bet your tamer has a lot of mana and good casting.

 

[imported_Mister E.]

this is getting out of hand... ninja form is indeed overpowered in some cases. to appease those who complain about it taking up a control slot to use, why dont the developers just make it a requirement to have hiding and stealth in order for its use (for wolf, llama, or any other fast movement form)? after all, isnt the whole point of being a ninja hiding and stealth? not running around with a 900 HP dragon...lol

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

rtlfc

Animal form isn't overpowered.

In reply to 'animal form taking 1 slot'... this is a TAMER issue why should Ninjitsu get the nerf. Overpowered pets + summon endlessly are the problem, not that Ninjitsu has a mounted speed move. Besides which, players have been doing the exact same thing with Cu's for years. What you going to do then make animal form 2 slots? They'll change to beetles, then you'll be asking for animal form to be 3 slots.

In reply to 'tie Ninjitsu to hide/stealth'... well yeah, I've been suggesting that since the deathstrike 'fix'.

IMO, remove pet balls from the game or just stop them working in fel. Oh and while their at it they could remove bolas from the game, so that the billion dismount tamers soon to flood fel actually have to invest some points in dismounting. (&amp; yes rightfully at the cost of the templates defense!)

 

[GarthGrey]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Isn't that always the answer? Tamers get an uber pet,and to balance it,another skill get whacked with a nerf stick....

[/ QUOTE ]How does requiring animal form to use a control slot constitute a nerf?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I was using animal form with my bake and rune combo and no one was crying then..this is crap if this gets put in because of Uhall whining..

 

[MadTexan]

<blockquote><hr>

Because I was using animal form with my bake and rune combo and no one was crying then..this is crap if this gets put in because of Uhall whining..

[/ QUOTE ]Just because you are doing it does not mean it doesn't need to be changed.

 

[Guest]

the real problem isnt animal form, its the summon balls.

people need to realize that.

follower count should NOT be messed with in any way.

a change to pet balls will impact pvp to balance it, without hurting the use of them for pvm.

 

[MadTexan]

<blockquote><hr>

the real problem isnt animal form, its the summon balls.

people need to realize that.

follower count should NOT be messed with in any way.

a change to pet balls will impact pvp to balance it, without hurting the use of them for pvm.

[/ QUOTE ]Whatever probelm the pet balls may cause is irrelavent to the control slot issue. Any ability to move at the speed of someone mounted should require a control slot. It in no way hinders what the ninja profession as it was designed. If you have 5 slots worth of atom bombs following you around, your butt needs to be walking, not zipping around at mounted speed.

I am sure alot the people complaining about animal form using a control slot, are the same people that complained when they stopped the ability to tame CUs in wolf form without the taming skill.

BTW, any change they make to pet balls for PvP will absolutely impact PvM in some way. That does not mean it should not be looked at. Any changes to an item in the game has some affect on everyone that uses that item.

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

You shouldn't be able to perform any actions in any animal form that makes you faster than other players.

 

[GarthGrey]

Am I wrong, or aren't Pet Balls, at least for non PvP tamers, obsolete now? You can get the exact same effect with Log out, right? Well, except for the whole "pulling the pet from the stables" trick. But no self respecting Tamer yanks their pet from the stables to the dungeon.

My point is, if you want to put timers on Balls it won't affect PvM tamers, at least I can't see how it would.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

Whatever probelm the pet balls may cause is irrelavent to the control slot issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no control slot issue. Pet balls are the problem. If you make animal form 1 slot they'll just go back to using a cu again. It's the same issue, overpowered pet being instantly moved to the targets tile resulting in inescapable death. If they make animal form 2 slots they'll use a beetle.

<blockquote><hr>

It in no way hinders what the ninja profession as it was designed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it does, theres no reason why Animal Form should take a slot when a taming aid (and one thats obsolete as intended at that) is at fault.

<blockquote><hr>

If you have 5 slots worth of atom bombs following you around, your butt needs to be walking, not zipping around at mounted speed.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one cares if a mount speed animal form can run around with a 5 slot dragon because the dragon (the dangerous part) will still be slower than any other player, even if that player is dismounted. The problem is that they can pet ball it to your location so your constantly getting hit and can't get away from it.

<blockquote><hr>

I am sure alot the people complaining about animal form using a control slot, are the same people that complained when they stopped the ability to tame CUs in wolf form without the taming skill.

[/ QUOTE ]
The people 'complaining' about animal form using a slot are the ones who can see it's not a Ninjitsu problem. I don't see how you relate any of this to Cu's/wolf form, nor why, considering it never had a huge impact. Other than being hysterically funny watching necros get ganked to crap in weald.

<blockquote><hr>

BTW, any change they make to pet balls for PvP will absolutely impact PvM in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessarily, if they just stop pet balls working in fel it won't. Although theres yet to be one person saying they'd miss a pet ball in pvm, should show their not even used for their purpose.

To the other guy: Your right, their not used in pvm theres not much point wasting powder when you can just log out/in for the same effect.

 

[MadTexan]

<blockquote><hr>

No one cares if a mount speed animal form can run around with a 5 slot dragon because the dragon (the dangerous part) will still be slower than any other player, even if that player is dismounted.

[/ QUOTE ]I bet someone, probably you will care if my Ethy does not take a control slot. Remember the dragon is the dangerous part.

 

[the 4th man]

All's fair in love and war, there is no blance, there is no overpowering.....just because someone gets their grave dug for them, they feel coming to a forum and griping is justifiable.....makes one look like a crybaby actually.

If I could use 5 dragons, hell I would, and whatever other means I could dredge up. Just be a bit more creative.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

I bet someone, probably you will care if my Ethy does not take a control slot. Remember the dragon is the dangerous part.

[/ QUOTE ]

No not really and if you understood what the problem was rather than talking about ethys and control slots for skills that are nothing to do with the problem you wouldn't either.

Mounted speed player does not equal a faster pet than a player on foot.
Mounted speed player plus pet ball does.

What your suggesting is nothing thats not already doable in game with animal form.

 

[MadTexan]

<blockquote><hr>

Mounted speed player does not equal a faster pet than a player on foot.
<blockquote><hr>

Mounted player's survivability goes up by a large percentage. There is the difference. This has nothing whatsoever to do with pet balls

 

[imported_Warpig Inc]

Have to agree with the whole stealthy sneaky ninja being a tamer bad. What part of ninja should include slow pets the size of a small house. Just becuase big enough hammer can put a square peg in a round hole makes it right.

 

[gothelder]

<blockquote><hr>


Not necessarily, if they just stop pet balls working in fel it won't. Although theres yet to be one person saying they'd miss a pet ball in pvm, should show their not even used for their purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I use one on occasion to allow my tamer to get beasts into wind, Also in T2a its more convenient to summon ones beast then have to casually stroll to whereever one is hunting that day.

 

[imported_Mister E.]

<blockquote><hr>

rtlfc

Animal form isn't overpowered.

In reply to 'animal form taking 1 slot'... this is a TAMER issue why should Ninjitsu get the nerf. Overpowered pets + summon endlessly are the problem, not that Ninjitsu has a mounted speed move. Besides which, players have been doing the exact same thing with Cu's for years. What you going to do then make animal form 2 slots? They'll change to beetles, then you'll be asking for animal form to be 3 slots.

In reply to 'tie Ninjitsu to hide/stealth'... well yeah, I've been suggesting that since the deathstrike 'fix'.

IMO, remove pet balls from the game or just stop them working in fel. Oh and while their at it they could remove bolas from the game, so that the billion dismount tamers soon to flood fel actually have to invest some points in dismounting. (&amp; yes rightfully at the cost of the templates defense!)

[/ QUOTE ]


this is so easy then...

to make it fair for everyone balance wise...

require certain animal forms to take a control slot UNLESS you have the appropriate skill in hiding and stealth.

to reiterate, ninja requires a HUGE amount of discipline...as one of a ninja's most potent survival tools (animal form)...it should require some additional skill (hiding/stealth), else take a penalty (control slot).

 

[Guest]

This isnt about ninjitsu, or taming as individuals. Its about the COMBINATION of both.

 

[Ru Atl]

<blockquote><hr>

This isnt about ninjitsu, or taming as individuals. Its about the COMBINATION of both.

[/ QUOTE ]

what it should be about is the pet balls. nerf the damn pet balls. put a timer or something on them.

the problem is not the pets(although their pvp damage could be toned down a bit. 92 damage fire breath attack...) its the run beside you petballers. it don't matter if its mounted speed animal form with uber dragon or a mounted tamer with beetle, the pet ball is the problem.

 

[BajaElladan]

One MORE topic where the solution is oh so simple...End PvP.

Problem solved.

 

[Lilith_Mauvais]

On this tamer template, does the person have melee and stealth skills to take advantage of the other ninjitsu powers? Probably not. So they are using 70 skill points for the ostard form (maybe less with jewelry) to get an extra control slot? Um, so? Doesn't magery have like 64 spells that can fill in for every skill practically? Why not nerf magery since then the tamer will have to have healing and anatomy and hiding and archery to do about as much as magery? Lame. It seems the problem are the dragons since there wasn't this much complaint about the other PvP pets. Maybe a nerf or a change of tactics are in order?

Other possible tactics that may work:
1. peacemaking
2. Stealthing up in groups to kill the tamer quickly
3. Making the same template de jour until something better comes along or a nerf
comes along or both

Again this doesn't affect me (no tamer and my ninja isn't thinking of playing with pets), but it does bother me the whining. If it is truly the ultimate template, use it and become the greatest pvper until the next patch. If it is just a good template, find a way to kill the people using it and their uber dragons. If the only people pvping are tamers for a month or so, that does more to convince the dev team than a few posts.

 

[Al Thorin]

<blockquote><hr>

LOL you owe me a new keyboard

.

The main problem I see is the use of pet SUMMONING balls, how about the change it like they did the BoS, the more control slots a pet uses equals the charges used on the the pet summoning ball, as well as adding a delay timer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, dang, that's probably the single best idea I've heard for pet balls!
Minus the delay, no point in fixing it, then nerfing it.

 

[Guest]

Erm, every gimp tamer I've snooped was loaded with POT alongside that pet ball. It would help, but it's easy to set a macro to use the powder to top up a ball on the run. So spamming the ball even if it used more charges wouldn't do the trick IMO. Adding a proper casting scenario including delay however, would make a difference.

Wenchy

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

Mounted player's survivability goes up by a large percentage. There is the difference. This has nothing whatsoever to do with pet balls


[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't care less wether the tamer can run away faster, it's not about him. It's about the person he just bolad and can now follow spamming a pet ball with an overpowered pet to their location for a inescapeable kill. So much like everything else you've said your wrong it is entirely to do with pet balls.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

this is so easy then...

to make it fair for everyone balance wise...

require certain animal forms to take a control slot UNLESS you have the appropriate skill in hiding and stealth.

to reiterate, ninja requires a HUGE amount of discipline...as one of a ninja's most potent survival tools (animal form)...it should require some additional skill (hiding/stealth), else take a penalty (control slot).

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree Ninjitsu should be tied to hide/stealth. Though thats a seperate issue.

On the issue of ninja/tamers ninjas, should not recieve a penalty when taming has been granted (yet another) over powered pet.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

Actually I use one on occasion to allow my tamer to get beasts into wind, Also in T2a its more convenient to summon ones beast then have to casually stroll to whereever one is hunting that day.


[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough, though it's still just as easy to log out/back in bringing your pet instantly to where you are.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

On the issue of ninja/tamers ninjas, should not recieve a penalty when taming has been granted (yet another) over powered pet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, nonsense. This dragon has finally put tamers on the same footing as the other templates. Just about any other template was more useful in the majority of the high end content (peerless, spawns, Doom) than a tamer.

I've said this before but I'll say it again because it needs to be said to counter some of the nonsense that is posted. I went to the Magincia event with my tamer. I stayed about an hour. My pet died, and the when it didn't die, even though I had actually fought some of the mobs longer, and most of them through the entire battle with them, I did not get looting rights on the higher end mobs (berserkers, dark fathers, void and light demons) once, not once.

This was with a fully trained, five times gm, cu sidhe, with great stats and resists, supposedly the most powerful pet in the game at the time, and I am far from being a newbie tamer. I had paid my dues, I had a decent template at the time, and decent equipment, but I didn't get looting rights once. It was everything I could do to keep my pet alive, and a few times I couldn't even do that.

I went and got my archer, that I have spent one tenth of the time and resources on - probably even less than that. My archer that wasn't anywhere near as fully developed as my tamer, with all of his skills still in need of a fair bit of training, and proceeded to do quite nicely, with lots of arties, loot and fame.

There are a lot of new dragons around now, but that is in part because they are new, the first really new thing in a long time, so of course everyone wants to check them out and see what they can do. Maybe they will need some balancing, but it is still too early to know that. The only thing that is certain is that they are a lot of fun, and they are finally allowing tamers to usefully take part in many aspects of the game they had never been able to take part in, with the exception of a very few, hard core, and extremely advanced individuals who did it mostly to have the satisfaction of saying they could do it.

And these dragons are not the best choice for pvp, except in certain very specific situations. Their strength is not in the amount of damage they do, but in how tough they are. For normal pvp, dps is king, and any of the 3/2 pet combinations will out dps these new dragons. I'll gladly put my beetle and bake up against a tamer with a greater dragon, and unless the tamer is far more skilled than I am, I will come out on top for the majority of the battles.

If the problem is ninja/tamers with pet balls, fix the problem, don't screw over the entire profession trying to fix what is really a very specific problem. Some of the changes that are being suggested to pet balls and to auto stabling, would make things very difficult for every tamer. If pet balls with ninjas are the problem, make it so that they can't be used while in animal form. That makes sense, and fixes the problem without screwing over either ninjas, or tamers in general.

 

[imported_Mister E.]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

this is so easy then...

to make it fair for everyone balance wise...

require certain animal forms to take a control slot UNLESS you have the appropriate skill in hiding and stealth.

to reiterate, ninja requires a HUGE amount of discipline...as one of a ninja's most potent survival tools (animal form)...it should require some additional skill (hiding/stealth), else take a penalty (control slot).

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree Ninjitsu should be tied to hide/stealth. Though thats a seperate issue.

On the issue of ninja/tamers ninjas, should not recieve a penalty when taming has been granted (yet another) over powered pet.

[/ QUOTE ]

the penalty comes from diluting your own skill tree by not having the correct secondary skill. take away lore from taming and how effective are you as a tamer?

secondly, seems to me the only ones concerned about a penalty are those wanting to run around with a super drag. the devs. made the creature take 5 control slots for a reason...i dont think animal form was taken into consideration. after all a 5 slot tameable is new to game.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

This dragon has finally put tamers on the same footing as the other templates. Just about any other template was more useful in the majority of the high end content (peerless, spawns, Doom) than a tamer.


[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly thats nonsense, Cu's/rune beetles have always been useful in tanking peerless/spawns/doom. Secondly the issue isn't the dragon, it's the dragon in pvp. You think your 100 hp mage is going to last long against a 1000 hp dragon that has firebreath/bleed/magery and riddiculous melee? It won't, just like they won't against beetles or any of the other over powered pets at your disposal.

<blockquote><hr>

I've said this before but I'll say it again because it needs to be said to counter some of the nonsense that is posted. I went to the Magincia event with my tamer. I stayed about an hour. My pet died, and the when it didn't die, even though I had actually fought some of the mobs longer, and most of them through the entire battle with them, I did not get looting rights on the higher end mobs (berserkers, dark fathers, void and light demons) once, not once.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you used the wrong pet? You should try looking at the damage types/resists of both your pet and the target. But again this has nothing to do with this topic.

<blockquote><hr>

This was with a fully trained, five times gm, cu sidhe, with great stats and resists, supposedly the most powerful pet in the game at the time, and I am far from being a newbie tamer. I had paid my dues, I had a decent template at the time, and decent equipment, but I didn't get looting rights once. It was everything I could do to keep my pet alive, and a few times I couldn't even do that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whats that got to do with ninjitsu tamers in pvp?

<blockquote><hr>

I went and got my archer, that I have spent one tenth of the time and resources on - probably even less than that. My archer that wasn't anywhere near as fully developed as my tamer, with all of his skills still in need of a fair bit of training, and proceeded to do quite nicely, with lots of arties, loot and fame.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good for you, whats it got to do with anything?

<blockquote><hr>

There are a lot of new dragons around now, but that is in part because they are new, the first really new thing in a long time, so of course everyone wants to check them out and see what they can do. Maybe they will need some balancing, but it is still too early to know that.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not too early to know, ninja tamers have been abusing pet balls/cu's for ages, the dragon can go well above the cu's skills (130.5 max wrestling) which means it will hit pretty much every time, considering a gm cu already hits players most everytime it doesn't look good for the player. On top of that because of it's riddiculous resists/stats/skills it is unlikely that anyone will be able to kill it.

<blockquote><hr>

The only thing that is certain is that they are a lot of fun

[/ QUOTE ]
Lets see you go out looking for a some pvp, you find a guy and go to attack, your bolad, an impossible to kill dragon is set on you that has more tricks up it's sleeve than all the previously overpowered pets. You manage to get half a screen away, by which time the 5s bola timer has worn off and the tamer can now animal form right next to you and pet ball the ******** pet on to you until your dead. You log out wondering why you bother trying to pvp anymore. Fun fun fun!

<blockquote><hr>

they had never been able to take part in

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh yes they have, this happens all day everyday on most shards.

<blockquote><hr>

extremely advanced individuals

[/ QUOTE ]
Theres nothing advanced about throwing a bola and saying all kill, thats why people are complaining, because every idiot can do it.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

secondly, seems to me the only ones concerned about a penalty are those wanting to run around with a super drag. the devs. made the creature take 5 control slots for a reason...i dont think animal form was taken into consideration. after all a 5 slot tameable is new to game.


[/ QUOTE ]
Some people intend to actually play ninjitsu tamers in pvm, why should they get nerfed?

The devs take more into consideration than I expect any player will ever see, know or understand.

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

This dragon has finally put tamers on the same footing as the other templates. Just about any other template was more useful in the majority of the high end content (peerless, spawns, Doom) than a tamer.


[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly thats nonsense, Cu's/rune beetles have always been useful in tanking peerless/spawns/doom.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nowhere near as useful as an advanced, well played dexxer, and much harder to keep alive.

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I've said this before but I'll say it again because it needs to be said to counter some of the nonsense that is posted. I went to the Magincia event with my tamer. I stayed about an hour. My pet died, and the when it didn't die, even though I had actually fought some of the mobs longer, and most of them through the entire battle with them, I did not get looting rights on the higher end mobs (berserkers, dark fathers, void and light demons) once, not once.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you used the wrong pet? You should try looking at the damage types/resists of both your pet and the target. But again this has nothing to do with this topic.

[/ QUOTE ]
The results were pretty much the same across the board for any tamer with any pet. Many tamers tried to attend the event, with different pets and tamer templates, and few, if any had much success. Most gave up and did what I did. And this has everything to do with the topic at hand. There are a few crying for a general nerf of the new dragon, and I am telling you there is a good reason why the dragon was introduced, and why it should not be nerfed.

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

There are a lot of new dragons around now, but that is in part because they are new, the first really new thing in a long time, so of course everyone wants to check them out and see what they can do. Maybe they will need some balancing, but it is still too early to know that.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not too early to know, ninja tamers have been abusing pet balls/cu's for ages, the dragon can go well above the cu's skills (130.5 max wrestling) which means it will hit pretty much every time, considering a gm cu already hits players most everytime it doesn't look good for the player. On top of that because of it's riddiculous resists/stats/skills it is unlikely that anyone will be able to kill it.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are exhibiting your ignorance here. First off, there are going to be very few dragons with legendary wrestling, let alone 130 wrestling, they aren't that easy to come by. Second, most pvp'rs who might actually let a dragon close enough to them to hit them will have close to max dci, which means that dragon will not be hitting anywhere close to every time. Beyond that, they move pretty slowly and are fairly easy to keep away from, even on foot. Generally if you are actually meleeing a dragon, that is your choice, not the tamers.

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

The only thing that is certain is that they are a lot of fun

[/ QUOTE ]
Lets see you go out looking for a some pvp, you find a guy and go to attack, your bolad, an impossible to kill dragon is set on you that has more tricks up it's sleeve than all the previously overpowered pets. You manage to get half a screen away, by which time the 5s bola timer has worn off and the tamer can now animal form right next to you and pet ball the ******** pet on to you until your dead. You log out wondering why you bother trying to pvp anymore. Fun fun fun!

[/ QUOTE ]
The new dragon has fewer special attacks than a rune beetle, and if it is paired with a bake kitsune, 1/2 the specials that that combination can use. The new dragon also has a lower dps than any 3/2 pet combination you can put together (with the possible exception of a combination including a lesser hiryu). The only thing it has going for it in pvp over a 3/2 pet combination, is that it is much harder to kill.

And again, if the problem is ninjas and pet balls, fix the problem, don't screw the entire tamer profession when the fix would be simple, and quite specific.

As for "previously over powered pets". I pvp on a tamer a lot. I've seen many many tamers attempt to pvp with pets, and at least 90% of them give up after one or two tries, and a number of deaths and pet deaths. This is on a regular shard. The only shard on which there has been a problem with tamers in pvp has been on Siege, due to the differences in the rules set there. And the verdict isn't in on the new dragons in pvp on regular shards yet either. I've only seen them in action a few times so far, and I've seen nothing to indicate that they are over powered in pvp. Yes they are much harder to kill, and yes there is and will be an increase in the number of tamers pvp'ing, at least for the short term, but I'm betting they aren't necessarily going to do a whole lot better than I have seen them do in the past, with the possible exception of the specific problem with animal forms.

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

extremely advanced individuals

[/ QUOTE ]
Theres nothing advanced about throwing a bola and saying all kill, thats why people are complaining, because every idiot can do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I use a bola in pvp with pets. I have over 50 macros bound to hot key combinations. I use at least 20 of them in pvp all the time, and far more than that in pvm. How many macros do you have that you use in pvp? I'll say it again, I've seen plenty of tamers think that it is going to be easy to pvp with pets try it, and the vast majority give up after a short time and don't do it again. Why? Because it isn't easy. Because playing a tamer in pvp is one of the most challenging templates to play on regular shards.

What's even funnier is the 733t pvp'rs who are wannabe tamers, who think they are going to prove a point by pwning everyone in pvp with a tamer. They usually show up once, and don't come back. I've seen one in the past two years on my shard actually stick it out and continue pvp'ing, and his pets die a lot... With the new dragon I expect that number to increase, and they won't die anywhere near as often, but there are still going to be many that try to play a pvp tamer, and give up fairly quickly when they find out it isn't anywhere near as easy as they thought it was going to be...

What we are really talking about here is the old attitude that tamers don't belong in pvp, heck many of the 733t pvp'rs don't think tamers belong in UO period. As soon as any tamers start having any success at anything, the 733t dexxers and mages start howling, "NERF!!!" as loud as they possibly can. How about learning to fight a tamer with pets, rather than whining until some harried dev does the job for you?

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

Nowhere near as useful as an advanced, well played dexxer, and much harder to keep alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tamers that know what their doing never have their pets die.

<blockquote><hr>

The results were pretty much the same across the board for any tamer with any pet. Many tamers tried to attend the event, with different pets and tamer templates, and few, if any had much success. Most gave up and did what I did. And this has everything to do with the topic at hand. There are a few crying for a general nerf of the new dragon, and I am telling you there is a good reason why the dragon was introduced, and why it should not be nerfed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how dragging up an event thats over has much to do with this topic, sounds like the tamers you saw didn't have very good supporting skills if they couldn't keep a 600 hp pet alive. Even if you were so terrible that your pet was losing you could just move away from whats killing it log out and your pet is saved. Bringing up berzerkers is a fairly odd point considering they were intended not to be tanked to death by pets. I haven't seen anyone ask for dragons to be nerfed in this thread, pet balls and animal form yeah, but not the dragon. So why your 'telling me' when I haven't asked for one makes as little sense as your other point.

<blockquote><hr>

You are exhibiting your ignorance here. First off, there are going to be very few dragons with legendary wrestling, let alone 130 wrestling, they aren't that easy to come by. Second, most pvp'rs who might actually let a dragon close enough to them to hit them will have close to max dci, which means that dragon will not be hitting anywhere close to every time. Beyond that, they move pretty slowly and are fairly easy to keep away from, even on foot. Generally if you are actually meleeing a dragon, that is your choice, not the tamers.


[/ QUOTE ]
Their easy to come by if you know what your doing. I have 4 I'm currently working on and all will be over legendary when trained, 2 over 130. I'm not particularly intrested in taming so if I can get them anyone can. Aside from the fact that DCI is factored in after weapon skill, it's amazing how you can call someone ignorant in the same paragraph as saying 'most pvpers have close to max dci', thats a huge presumption and an inacurate one at that. You think they've got much choice in the matter of being hit when their bolad and have the tamer running next to them in animal form spamming his pet ball? You act like the dragon is the only pet this has been done with, it's been done for years with cu's and they cap at gm. If it works with them it's damn sure going to work with a pet that can have up to 130.5 wrestle.

<blockquote><hr>

The new dragon has fewer special attacks than a rune beetle, and if it is paired with a bake kitsune, 1/2 the specials that that combination can use. The new dragon also has a lower dps than any 3/2 pet combination you can put together (with the possible exception of a combination including a lesser hiryu). The only thing it has going for it in pvp over a 3/2 pet combination, is that it is much harder to kill.

[/ QUOTE ]
It also hits harder, its breath is ranged unlike the beetles specials, its breath hits harder and their skills can go above that which a player can have meaning failure to hit for the player and increased hit for the dragon. Even it's resist can go over 120 so you can't parra it.

<blockquote><hr>

And again, if the problem is ninjas and pet balls, fix the problem, don't screw the entire tamer profession when the fix would be simple, and quite specific.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know the problem is pet balls, no one other than you has suggested otherwise. You've got this idea in your head that I've somewhere said 'nerf the new dragon', I haven't I've said 'nerf pet balls'.

<blockquote><hr>

As for "previously over powered pets".

[/ QUOTE ]
It's intresting you put it in quote marks when you've just finished telling us how a 3/2 pet combo is stronger.

<blockquote><hr>

I use a bola in pvp with pets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you should be aware of how pathetically cheap it is.

<blockquote><hr>

I have over 50 macros bound to hot key combinations. I use at least 20 of them in pvp all the time, and far more than that in pvm.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one asked? No one cares, but for the sake of humoring you, how many of those 50 macros are required to throw a bola and say all kill?

<blockquote><hr>

How many macros do you have that you use in pvp?

[/ QUOTE ]
On what char? Why does it matter? Do you really think your macro count says your a more skilled pvp than someone, lol, what was that you said earlier about exhibiting ignorance?

<blockquote><hr>

I'll say it again, I've seen plenty of tamers think that it is going to be easy to pvp with pets try it, and the vast majority give up after a short time and don't do it again. Why? Because it isn't easy. Because playing a tamer in pvp is one of the most challenging templates to play on regular shards.


[/ QUOTE ]
You can say as much as you like, doesn't make it any more accurate. They might also give up because they prefer player skill over ai as indicated by the term 'PVP', neither of those P's stand for pets. Challenging? How challenging is bola/all kill, in a suit you can build easier than anyone else because your offense is a follower. Tamers are so cheap in PVP you see people running them in the virtue suit.

<blockquote><hr>

How about learning to fight a tamer with pets

[/ QUOTE ]
How about not? If I wanted to fight a dragon I'd go to destard.

<blockquote><hr>

What we are really talking about here is the old attitude that tamers don't belong in pvp

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats what your talking about, everyone else is talking about nerfing pet balls.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

That statement alone proves that you don't have a clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

No that statement proves your tamer doesn't know how to save his pets.

<blockquote><hr>

They're so easy, how about you go get a tamer, and come to Yew gate in Catskills. I'll be there waiting for you as will most of the rest of the pvp'rs on Catskills. If you leave the guard zone, you and your pets will be dead within five minutes, unless you somehow manage to grow a brain between now and then.


[/ QUOTE ]
As with the rest of your presumptuous nonsense, how do you know I don't already have a tamer? To save you the bother of posting another personal attack to try and disguise your clear lack of knowledge, you don't.

<blockquote><hr>

In addition to the fact that I use more macros than you do in pvp

[/ QUOTE ]
Really, thats an intresting statement considering I didn't answer you when you asked how many. Guess that means, yet again, you don't know.

In addition to the fact that if it in any way mattered, I'd still be laughing at you because it sounds like your setup sucks. 50 macros and you can't keep your pets alive? Sounds like your one of those new tamers you were bashing in your other troll post.

<blockquote><hr>

I've spent thousands of hours farming for pets and training them. I've spent over 200 mil on my suit. This is in addition to the fact that the taming skill is one of the most time consuming to train. Use your noob Tram tamer crap on someone it applies to...


[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, angry little noob aren't ya. Then you wasted a lot of time and money. 'Noob tram tamer crap', what makes you think I only have one tamer? Oh thats right again, you don't know.

<blockquote><hr>

I use a bola because it works, and because it is the only way I would have much of a chance in pvp. It doesn't make me over powered, it evens the playing field. My pets are slow and stupid, without some way to dismount mounted players, I would have no chance whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]
You use a bola because its dismount without skill points. Your pets are slow and stupid? Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black from what you've said so far.

Here it is in bold just in case it slips by you again genius:

NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT NERFING DISMOUNTS
NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT NERFING THE PET

 

[Llewen]

<blockquote><hr>

As with the rest of your presumptuous nonsense

[/ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else find that funny coming from someone who chose the forums name, "Lord GOD"? As for the rest of it. There is obviously no point even replying to what you have to say...