A debate I would like the good people of uhall to decide (including great pic)

[Guest]

I was wondering if this was legal or not.

A fellow citizen of Legends not only says it is legal but says that a gm told him it was ok.

also here is the original link to my home shard where this was started.

http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=7665284&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

 

[Guest]

If they're tame it's legal. Otherwise, it's not even close to it.

 

[wanderer1origin]

think not if have animals penned and cant attack when provoked or etc is considered an exploit!!!!!!!

 

[DevilsOwn]

<font color="purple">just curious, are herded animals also tamed? I've never herded, not sure I've ever even seen herded animals

</font>

 

[Redxpanda]

I wanted to comment but changed my mind for personal reasons...

I can't believe you included a map with a red X

 

[Guest]

Illegal. Know someone who recently got a 24 hour ban for it.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

blocked

QUESTION
Is it legal to block NPC's or monsters with objects, or invisible pets/players?

Answer

It is not legal to block NPC's or monsters with objects. The deliberate blocking of monsters or NPC’s with objects such as boats, crates, house tiles, invisible pets or invisible players with the intent to gain an unfair advantage, like skill gain or monster killing is considered an exploit and can result in account penalties. This also applies to “animal pens” or “Safe areas” in the game world. If the animal/monster cannot damage you, then you are abusing the system and will be asked to stop.

As well, if you find an area blocked off by items that another player has left there to gain an advantage for taming or monster kill, we ask that you either destroy the items, or pick them up for later disposal. Using these items to your advantage, even though you did not place them yourself, is still considered exploiting.

However there are times in which we will allow this. If your home is set up to be a stable, or you are showing off various animals of Britannia and these animals are not being used to gain skill, attack other players (in Trammel), or provide any unfair advantage to you or others then it is ok to leave your pets/animals in your home. However, please be aware that a Game Master may remove any wild pets if those pets are found providing an unfair advantage to other players or are causing an issue with the game in that area. These decisions are made on a case by case basis and players should follow the decision made at the time.

I'm guessing the "sparkle" is NOT the result of a fresh shampoo ...

 

[joblackjon]

This is Poo's Disco Training Technique to a tee...stickied in Stratic's own Bard forum. It's been discussed, refined, tested, recommended and used for, I think, two years if memory serves.

Imho, if Stratic's had the slightest inkling that his technique is against the TOS, they would have blackballed Poo as opposed to stickying his manual.

Blocking doesn't really come into play here since the char is training Disco which doesn't agro the target. The char could be in the pens with the beasts and still train. I do essentially the same thing in the Twisted Wield with Cus. In training Disco you don't "need" to block the target from getting at you.

No Bard would ever use this scenario for Peace...area Peace is easier, faster.

If the char spams Provo on those Unis, he's dirt-napping in seconds!

So...I don't think it is against the TOS.

 

[imported_Nestorius]

That looks cool. It would be silly to ban that.

 

[Guest]

For the avg player, the only issuue is that it stops spawn. If i go get the 2-3 Kirin from an area, and remove them to my house, will Ki-rin respawn in that area like they would if they had been killed?

What if, for fun, you went to the farm in Jhelom, Tamed via 5 pet slots at a time ALL the animals there, and had them in your house? And others went there to train Taming, but it was empty? hehehehe

According to the TOS, most of us have violated the rules. If you attack a non spell casting creature on land, from your boat, "You can not be harmed" it is an exploit. If you cast Blade spirits, onto a creature that can not cast dispell, and hide, "You are invisible", it is an exploit.

If you go to a safe spot, that is an exploit. This means no exiting a dungeon enterance if you are fighting something, or crossing a server line, as the monster can not follow you in most cases.

Since the game lets you do all this, and sometimes it is OK, and other times it is an Exploit, is just stupid. There are 2 types of Tactics in the game.
1. Tactics Skill: Increases how often you hit, and dodge enemy blows.
2. Real Tactics: What you do at the keyboard with your player in the game to help him survive, or kill stuff.

Oh, yea almost forgot, Attacking from inside or on the roof of your house, a creature that can not attack you back. I am sure NONE of us ever did that?

 

[Guest]

If someone wants to take the time and effort to gather that many Unicorns for training, who cares? Paging on someone who does that is mean spirited.

If the developers really wanted to prevent this they could simply prevent skill gain in houses on creatures. Didn't they just say that in-game fixes are better than arbitrary policies?

 

[Guest]

"1. Tactics Skill: Increases how often you hit, and dodge enemy blows."

Nope. Tactics doesn't do that. That's what Wep skill does. Tactics increases the damage you do by a percentage.

 

[Ru Atl]

i think it's illegal, but i'd probably just kill him instead of praying for a gm. *luvs nature's fury*

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Geez Plucky ... shoulda "given the rest of the Story"

Like the name of the house ... the message on the roof ...
a screenie of the ctrl-shift displaying the "wild" status ...

Might have gotten some of the boardies defending the safe non-risk gaining of barding ..
in fel ... to at least ghost out there and INSPECT whats going on

At least one of the "vigilantes" could do that little bit ...
pretty easy for one of them to KNOW it was a script or a mashed key "target next" macro ...

Shoot ... might even get a different GM than the one that told you that "some GM" said it was okay ...

meh ...

toddle on ...

 

[Guest]

It IS illegal.

I recieved a suspension for allow friends to trap animals inside my home.

I was not even logged into the game the time I recieved the suspension either.



<blockquote><hr>


Your Ultima Online account has been suspended from the Ultima Online
service for 24 hours due to the following violation of the Rules of
Conduct.

Violation: Abuse of Game Mechanics (Illegal House Design/Trapping
Creatures)
Date/Time: 2/5/2008 11:50:39 AM
Character: XXXXXXX
World: XXXXXXX

The above listed character was found to own a house on this account
that was designed to trap creatures inside. This is a violation of the
Rules of Conduct as noted below and will not be tolerated in Ultima
Online.


[/ QUOTE ]




<blockquote><hr>


If someone wants to take the time and effort to gather that many Unicorns for training, who cares? Paging on someone who does that is mean spirited.

If the developers really wanted to prevent this they could simply prevent skill gain in houses on creatures. Didn't they just say that in-game fixes are better than arbitrary policies?


[/ QUOTE ]
TOTALLY agree.

Someone wants to spend the time and hours to do it, why not let them?




Almost makes you wonder if theres something wrong with some skills skill gain. Why else are players doing things like this?

 

[Guest]

Well since it's only disco, which on failed attempts doesn't encite the monsters to attack you, I see no issues. With provoke on a failed attempt the uni's would cast spells on you. And nobody would train peace like that. So while it looks questionable, I'd say it's not. Unless they are unattended macroing, which they probably are. But since the trees in the pic seem to be dead, i'm guessing your in felucca, so you could kill him if ya wanted, and not waste the gm's time.

 

[Guest]

What are the odds the guy is actually discoing and not running his disco script with a bug to speed things up even more


LOL

 

[Arcus]

<blockquote><hr>

If someone wants to take the time and effort to gather that many Unicorns for training, who cares? Paging on someone who does that is mean spirited.

If the developers really wanted to prevent this they could simply prevent skill gain in houses on creatures. Didn't they just say that in-game fixes are better than arbitrary policies?

[/ QUOTE ]

They can hardly fix simple bugs , you want them to code that?

 

[Stigmatas]

Yea this is a good question....is it legal....they are not hostile creatures, and if he is not training provo...just disco...i wouldnt see what the big deal is....i dont know a disco'er that has not used a similar method to get to high levels of skill.

But I guess if EA says its illegal it is....but I don't agree with it.

 

[Guest]

Even if it's illegal I totally understand why people would do it. There are a couple skills in this game that just take far to long to work up. I'm not saying we should be able to GM quickly, but even to get in the 90's in some skills is unbelievably hard when doing it the "normal" way.

 

[Guest]

IT IS ILLEGAL.

I was suspended for it, while not even logged into the game, hell not a single player was even at my house.

I was using non agressize creatures and everything.

 

[Surgeries]

<blockquote><hr>

TOTALLY agree.

Someone wants to spend the time and hours to do it, why not let them?




Almost makes you wonder if theres something wrong with some skills skill gain. Why else are players doing things like this?


[/ QUOTE ]

I want to spend MY hours duping stuff...how 'bout that? Should I be allowed to do that?

I want to spend my hours using Speed Hack scripts against you...how 'bout THAT?

How about I be allowed to spend my hours doing anything against the ToS...how about that?

Jeez man...cheating is cheating.

If the ToS stated you COULD trap animals, and use them for skill gain, I wouldn't see a problem with it. Or even, if by omission, it somehow DIDN'T state so very clearly that it IS cheating...but it IS cheating, by the rules of the game, itself...and very clearly delineated, at that.

The game calls it Cheating.

The rules for Monopoly don't actually even STATE that taking money, when the banker goes to the bathroom, is against the rules, that I can recall, but I am betting that if I "wanted to spend my time, and went to the trouble to do so", you MIGHT still take exception to those actions, if you and I were in a game of Monopoly together...yes? The game doesn't actually state that I ALWAYS have to actually PURCHASE hotels for my Property, specifically...but I am betting that "If I went to all the trouble to bring my own hotels to the game, and put them up whilst no one was looking"...you MIGHT take exception to that...yes?

IF the rules say you SHOULDN'T do it...and they are quite specific about what you SHOULDN'T be doing...I guess I will never understand a mentality that says "Well...if they are willing to go to all the trouble to actually CHEAT...why not just LET them..."

Not ever.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Jeez man...cheating is cheating.

If the ToS stated you COULD trap animals

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually neither the terms of service or rules of conduct state anything about trapping animals inside your house for purposes of skill gain. Since those are the only two documents you are required to read about, this is completely a made up rule that a normal player may not be aware of. Same as luring champions into the guard zone.

The mechanics of doing this does not suggest in any way that it is illegal. The counter-arguments you mentioned (duping, speedhacking) are outlined as being illegal in the Rule of Conduct.

 

[imported_revenant2]

Yikes!

I know someone who got a temp ban for doing exactly this - taming lots of animals, bringing them into his house, putting animals into pre-created pens, releasing them, and then using them to build discord.

 

[DevilsOwn]

<font color="purple"> yes, they will ban, sometimes, as noted below ~~ complete section from the Knowledge Base: </font>

QUESTION
Can I keep my pets in my house?
Answer

You can leave pets in your house, but if they are not "refreshed" by being targeted or damaged, they will disappear. If you have a pet you would like to keep, seek out a stable master or animal trainer and stable the pet. All animals and creatures are subject to decay, even pets. To prevent a pet from decaying, it must take damage or be targeted periodically. If a creature is not targeted, or takes no damage, for approximately 2 hours (the amount of time can vary), the creature will decay and disappear. You can target your pet using a skill such as Animal Lore, Anatomy, or Evaluate Intelligence.

It is not legal to block NPC's or monsters with objects. The deliberate blocking of monsters or NPC’s with objects such as boats, crates, house tiles, invisible pets or invisible players with the intent to gain an unfair advantage, like skill gain or monster killing is considered an exploit and can result in account penalties. This also applies to “animal pens” or “Safe areas” in the game world. If the animal/monster cannot damage you, then you are abusing the system and will be asked to stop.

However there are times in which we will allow this. If your home is set up to be a stable, or you are showing off various animals of Britannia and these animals are not being used to gain skill, attack other players (in Trammel), or provide any unfair advantage to you or others then it is ok to leave your pets/animals in your home. However, please be aware that a Game Master may remove any wild pets if those pets are found providing an unfair advantage to other players or are causing an issue with the game in that area. These decisions are made on a case by case basis and players should follow the decision made at the time.

 

[Guest]

I'm sure a lawyer could have a field day with the definition of bug: "You will not exploit any bug in the Ultima Online product or the Ultima Online service."

 

[Guest]

yea well it seems odd that the (person) whom told me a gm said it was ok and told me (dared me to) ask on uhall. Has not been scene in this thread anywhere and has putt a roof up top cover his sparkies.

Seems if this was as legal as he boasted he would have gotten allot of supporters here instead of the smattering he recieved.

Now whats really funny is the guild he is associated with is flying there guild tags while defending this house (which is fury proof with triple walls and has been). But this same said guild screams to high heaven all the time about everyone else cheating.

 

[Guest]

I have to admit I have pretty mixed feeling about this particular issue: it does take a certain effort to arrange a zoo - unlike training many other skills ... but if these animals don't have a chance to defend themselves against what is (or should be considered) an offensive ability, then it is a bug.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I'm sure a lawyer could have a field day with the definition of bug: "You will not exploit any bug in the Ultima Online product or the Ultima Online service."


[/ QUOTE ]
Customizing your house is not a bug.
Taming animals is not a bug.
Releasing tamed animals inside your house is not a bug.
Targetting those animals with discordance, provoke or peacemaking is not a bug.
Gaining skills off those creatures is not a bug.

Where exactly is the bug here? This is a made up rule not outlined in the Rules of Conduct.

 

[DevilsOwn]

<font color="purple"> thank you, JC, you took us exactly where I wanted to go

the answer above is located in the KB, and those specific words are not contained anywhere in the TOS

so my question is.... as noted in the last line of the answer, it is not a given that this particular action is bannable, so how much of the rules we play by are of this type, open to interpretation (as evidenced here) by the person (GM) reading? and do we need strict interpretations? a list... you may do this, you may not do that

it's nice to think we're bigger than that, but this discussion shows we're not</font>

 

[imported_SavageSP]

It looks to me like he is Disco Training.

If you think hes AFK and you feel so inclined, page on him.

He took the time to gather all those animals and get them all in one place to make his training easier, if hes Not AFK then whats your problem with it?

In the current state of UO with all the Scripters, Speedhacking, Exploiters, Etc.
complaining about someone who spent alot of time in game to make training easier is hardly an issue worth posting on.

Again I say if you think hes AFK, then Page on him if you feel so inclined, if not leave him the hell alone and go find a IDOC Scripter, or Resource Scripter to take Pictures of.

 

[Guest]

why doesnt a dev post, right or wrong.


More important though, WHO CARES he's not hurting you.


are you jealous you don't have his script?

 

[Guest]

um ... you evidently missed the post directly above yours?

 

[Guest]

I dont think even a mod on uhall has posted in this thread let alone a Dev. That should tell you enough if this is legal or not since no one wants to putt there foot in there mouths.

Too answer someone said he isnt bothering me... I disagree. He is cheating bye either one doing an exploit or bye running a script unattended or both. That bothers me because he is telling me (and every other honest player) hey my time is too important to play bye the rules set forth bye the owners of this game while (we) the ones not cheating have to spend a hundred times longer to get the same results he is cheating at.

So yes self important idiots that think there time is more important then mine does bother me (ALLOT).

 

[imported_SavageSP]

Assuming he is Not AFK, and he is just discoing, what is wrong with taming a bunch of animals and putting them in your house?

They arent Fighting each other, and if they were the Unicorns would be casting spells, thus a chance for death.

What if they were sheep and he was sheering them? would you Ban him?

What if he was training Animal Lore?

He gathered a bunch of animals, and gated them to his house. They respawned in the Area they came from, so its not like hes hoggin all the critters.

He chose to train in his house instead of in the open for whatever reason, should you be Banned for training a Craft skill in your House?

Are you going to call for all Tailors working in their house to be Banned?

 

[Guest]

...

A few things:

1. It hasn't been legal to trap animals in your house since the days people did it with monsters and messed up the spawn in HUGE areas of the game.

2. It is ALSO illegal to trap monsters/animals for the purpose of skill gaining with the risk of using said skill removed by trapping.

3. If this person is unattended, they're breaking yet another rule.

Earthquake the animals to a peaceful death and page on the owner.

 

[imported_SavageSP]

If your Blue and Disco a Blue animal(unicorn) and Fail, does it go aggro on you?(i dont know, never tried it) If not, there is no risk being violated by having them contained.

Earthquake wont hit the animal or person in the house, you might be able to get a fury in there even though the house is doublewalled, youd find out for sure if he was Afk then, and then theres no need to page on him.

 

[Guest]

No one gives a toss about him being afk. Which he was intially till I started gateing in Yew Gate and all of a sudden he had his guilds reds protecting him.

The issue is the pinns and the fact bye almost everyones statements it is still illegal. I know youre trying to putt this into an argument you can win bye pointing out if he is attended or not but this issue is just a side point. Him being unattended just points out not only is he a cheat but he is a lazy cheat.

 

[imported_SavageSP]

<blockquote><hr>

No one gives a toss about him being afk. Which he was intially till I started gateing in Yew Gate and all of a sudden he had his guilds reds protecting him.

The issue is the pinns and the fact bye almost everyones statements it is still illegal. I know youre trying to putt this into an argument you can win bye pointing out if he is attended or not but this issue is just a side point. Him being unattended just points out not only is he a cheat but he is a lazy cheat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now we get the whole Story, your mad because of his guilds Reds getting to you. Your mad and wasting our time.

Since when is it illegal to have an animal in a Pen if it Isnt Fighting you or another Pet? Do you ever get off your mount and not want it to go outside the house chasing Spawn?
What is different about Training a Craft Skill that does No damage and Training a Bard Skill that does No Damage in your house as long as you are attended?
If hes AFK, Page on him if thats what you do.
You can also Kill him if your good enough to get Furys in.

Or are we gonna have people paging on every animal sitting in a house NOT Fighting anything? Maybe you should page on someones Nightmare casting Bless on itself over and over because theres a Gargoyle standing outside, technically if the Mare cant walk outside its Penned in the house by the outside Walls.

 

[Guest]

...

Since when is it illegal to have an animal in a Pen if it Isnt Fighting you or another Pet? Do you ever get off your mount and not want it to go outside the house chasing Spawn?

Do you REALLY think all those animals are tame? How many control slots are represented by the animals in those pens? Untamed/trapped = illegal.

What is different about Training a Craft Skill that does No damage and Training a Bard Skill that does No Damage in your house as long as you are attended?

Not all combat skills are damage causing. Debuffing is a combat tactic that does no damage, but causes a creature to agrro on you. Blocking off that aggro using pens in a house has been illegal for YEARS.

If hes AFK, Page on him if thats what you do.
You can also Kill him if your good enough to get Furys in.

Agreed.

Or are we gonna have people paging on every animal sitting in a house NOT Fighting anything? Maybe you should page on someones Nightmare casting Bless on itself over and over because theres a Gargoyle standing outside, technically if the Mare cant walk outside its Penned in the house by the outside Walls.

1. Don't TAMED animals log out with their owner?
2. Why not keep it in the stable?
3. Back to the first question in the post, do you REALLY think all of those are tamed? The answer from the Knowledge Base was given as to the legality of having animals in a house.

 

[Guest]

you lost youre argument you see the sparkles clearly there is skill in use.
I didnt lose anything I am a idoc scout. I just dont like those that say something that is clearly not true.

They said this was legal and they said a gm supported that claim. But as soon as this post came to uhall they went mia and have said nothing further.

btw what youre saying is purly youre opinion with nothign else to validate youre position. So unless you can pull a rule or a set of rules out that supports it please stop flaming my post in hopes of getting it locked so this will again be a subject off the radar.

 

[imported_SavageSP]

*runs off to test Disco* BRB

 

[Guest]

How is "If your home is set up to be a stable, or you are showing off various animals of Britannia and these animals are <u>not being used to gain skill</u>"
open to interpretation?

 

[the 4th man]

That ain't right, I don't care who you are.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

1. It hasn't been legal to trap animals in your house since the days people did it with monsters and messed up the spawn in HUGE areas of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the developers made some changes to the game, they didn't declare it illegal. For example all monsters have a finite life span of an hour or so if they are left alone. Second they made it so Wandering Healers did not resurrect players inside houses. These are examples of the developers taking action instead of setting up arbitrary rules for Gamemasters to enforce.

There is no way that for an average player to be aware that trapping animals inside a house for skill gain is currently illegal. The problem is instead of a Gamemaster politely informing the player that they should not do that, you get an instant suspension.

 

[imported_SavageSP]

I know all the Unicorns are not Tame, I also know he is Training Disco from the sparklies. When you Fail on a Disco on a Unicorn it doesnt Flag on you, so there is no chance that you or the unicorn would be damaged or die from training the Skill.

My Point is the untamed animals are not fighting anything, nothing is being damaged or healed.
If Training a Skill in your house that does not cause Damage is illegal, it should be so for All Skills,Hiding,Stealth,Magery,Lockpicking, and Crafting Included.

If having untamed animals in your house that are not fighting is illegal it shouldnt be. Birds fly in my house all the time, Ive had pets go untame in my house because I didnt have jewlery on to allow stable room when I logged out and my pet went Untame.
I have also accidentally logged out with Items on my Blue Beetle and left in in the house only to go Untame, lose all my Items and attack me the next time I logged in. Are you gonna get someone banned for those things as well?

Are you going to take all house tiles out of the Menu that can be used to make a Stable with, comon this is dumb. If the Guy was AFK, do something about it, if he wasnt leave him alone, he wasnt fighting the Animals and there was no risk involved that the stable was stopping.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Having "untamed animals in your house that are not fighting" is NOT illegal

"This also applies to “animal pens” or “Safe areas” in the game world. If the animal/monster cannot damage you, then you are abusing the system and will be asked to stop.'

cannot and WILL not damage you ... is where "the illegal" comes in ... not only for the Pen creator ... but any "innocent" passersby ...
"As well, if you find an area blocked off by items that another player has left there to gain an advantage for taming or monster kill, we ask that you either destroy the items, or pick them up for later disposal. Using these items to your advantage, even though you did not place them yourself, is still considered exploiting."

nope ...
it doesn't explicitly say "barding" ... doesn't "allow it" either ... everything is covered under the "gain an advantage for " ... barding, resist's, smithing and tailoring, herding ...

everything ...

everything is weighed against "intent" and "result" ... THEN you can toss in attended and macro'ed and scripted ...hardly "accidental" behaviors ... eh?

Read BOTH KB articles (they're quoted in this thread)
about Pets and blocking ...
Actually go to the "bother" to go afoot to the indicated house ...
do a little "fact checking"

THEN come with your opinions ... as to whether THIS little proviso, may / maynot apply ...

However there are times in which we will allow this. If your home is set up to be a stable, or you are showing off various animals of Britannia and these animals are not being <font color=red>used</font color=red> to gain skill, ...

Don't worry about "interfering" with the house in the op screenie ... the owner/decorator of the house ... HAS given permission(you'll SEE, if you go) re: paging
.... matter of fact ... reads like kind of a dare ...

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

Like most things it's probably highly dependant on the GM you get (if you get one).

Imo, it's legal as long as he's attended and not using a script to target them.

He could just as easily do that without them being in pens because when you release tamed pets they don't move unless (if their naturally agressive) something 'pops' (teleports/recalls in etc) on to the screen. Or with Unicorns/Ki Rin/Cu's if someone with negative karma would get targetted. He's doing it in a house but he could just as easily release them in one of the many remote long forgotten about event dungeons or far off hidden places where he's unlikely to ever be seen.

It's very easy to set up a UO macro that would attempt to discord each of them progressively within a tile range set by the player (so as not to waste attempts on things outside the house/off screen etc), also because he's in a house and discord doesn't flag he can just hide for 12s to undiscord them all.

 

[Stigmatas]

Yep, it would seem from that statement from EA, it's definately illlegal. I KNOW that provoing is illegal, as if you fail, a creature will want to bite your face off. So if you have it penned in, that clearly violates the ToS. Disco is different, however, since a non hostile will not attack you if you fail.

The skill gain part is the clincher though. Glad I got my bards trained up

.

I think Poo's skill gain method was meant to be a group thing. If the animals are tamed, and you happen to be guilded, I believe you could just park them anywhere, and have your guildy wanting to train disco, use them that way.

Heck, when I trained disco, I just used one creature then hid for several seconds until it broke. Rinse, repeat. Takes for fracking ever. Glad that's over.

 

[Lady-Tor]

I dont know whether itslegal or not, but my opinion is it should be legal.