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RMT: The Good the Bad and the Ugly

Do you Agree or Disagree with Real Money Transactions in UO or MMORPGs in general?

  • Agree: Let people buy stuff

    Votes: 26 39.4%
  • Disagree: RMT is bad for the game(s)

    Votes: 29 43.9%
  • Haven't thought about it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don't care either way

    Votes: 11 16.7%

  • Total voters
    66

Nexus

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Since it comes up a lot, let's give everyone an opportunity and a place to give their arguments for or against RMT. There will be a few rules to this though:

  1. No Advertising
  2. No Naming Individuals
  3. No Links
  4. No Trolling, Baiting, or taking Swipes at other community members, you will get a warning, and thread banned.
The purpose here is to have a place where people who think it is beneficial can say so and why, and those that think it is harmful can say so and why and both sides can debate it. The two sides aren't going to agree, that's expected and that's fine. What is also expected however is Civil discussion, the purpose here is to create meaningful dialog.
 

Xris

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I think it's great for players who don't have the time to get higher end stuff themselves. I think it also really messed up the UO economy. If they took duping out of the equation I think I'd be more OK with it. TBH I don't know where I really stand on this atm.
 

Ender

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In a vacuum, sure fine whatever. In practice though it's caused mass scripting and duping
 

Larisa

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Uriah Heep

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I think it's great for players who don't have the time to get higher end stuff themselves. I think it also really messed up the UO economy. If they took duping out of the equation I think I'd be more OK with it. TBH I don't know where I really stand on this atm.
Actually I don't agree. RMT didn't mess up the economy, the duping did that. Now if the RMT'ers were the ones duping, then they are at fault, sure. But the bottom line is this: It's EA/Origin/Mythic/Broadswords fault, for not stopping the dupers.

RMT'ers selling gold gotten naturally out of the game don't hurt the economy. And (here it comes, yall were waiting) you can bet one of the reasons the large dupers are still around is because the right people profit from it.

But RMT in and of itself, harms no one. If I farm 100 mil and sell it to Nexus for $15...I've not hurt the game, its money that was already ingame, just changed hands, much like buying an item off a vendor.

Go after the dupers, and let the RMT'ers run their business. I have actually seen them advertise to buy stuff from players, to resell of course. but there again, it'[s stuff that's ingame naturally and already.

Just my (vendorable) 0.02
 

Laura_Gold

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It's a "fiction breaker" if you can't craft *everything* that is used in-game.
 

Nexus

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Wait, do I need to report myself for discussing this? :gee:
NO since I started the thread so we can give everyone a chance to express their opinions and we can all debate it until we're sick of it without out screwing up every other thread that gets started in Uhall.
 

Nexus

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Not sure on the point of this topic. It's illegal per the TOS and anything that is discussed here won't change anything.
Because if we give people a place to discuss it, maybe it will stop so many other topics from being derailed by it. The topic placed here has less to do with what Broadsword enforces or not than it does with allowing people on Stratics to have a voice, one that wouldn't be allowed on the official forums.
 

Great DC

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First off without duping, RMT would never exist. Sure some people could sell their gold stashes after they farm it up, but no one would waste rl cash on a website if you couldn't dupe. If you fix the duping RMT sites will disappear in less then a year, once their stockpiles run dry.
 

Kylie Kinslayer

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RMT is just the UO version of "Pay to Win". And Broadsword is losing out on a LOT of revenue by not implementing in some manner. Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of "gamers" these days have short attention spans. They do not, and honestly will not, spend countless hours grinding to get the latest greatest thing.. they would rather plunk down $$ to have it so they can spend their time in game doing things that appeal to them.

Also... seeing as how UO now has their "Official Forum" I see no reason why Stratics does not reverse their own policy when it comes to RMT posts in trade forums. I mean heck, that would increase traffic to the site and increase revenue Stratics as well... as far as I always knew the only reason Stratics did not allow it is because it was the "Unofficial, Official Forum".... since that ship has sailed... *shrugs*

First off without duping, RMT would never exist. Sure some people could sell their gold stashes after they farm it up, but no one would waste rl cash on a website if you couldn't dupe. If you fix the duping RMT sites will disappear in less then a year, once their stockpiles run dry.
RMT existed LONG before Duping.. and a TON of cash was made during that time as well. Or were you not around for the $12-15+ a mil days?
 

Uriah Heep

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I was. And people will say thats a lot of $$ for a mil. But remember, just like in RL, back then that mil would buy you a lot of anything you can name lol.
 

Nexus

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Actually I don't agree. RMT didn't mess up the economy, the duping did that. Now if the RMT'ers were the ones duping, then they are at fault, sure. But the bottom line is this: It's EA/Origin/Mythic/Broadswords fault, for not stopping the dupers.

RMT'ers selling gold gotten naturally out of the game don't hurt the economy. And (here it comes, yall were waiting) you can bet one of the reasons the large dupers are still around is because the right people profit from it.

But RMT in and of itself, harms no one. If I farm 100 mil and sell it to Nexus for $15...I've not hurt the game, its money that was already ingame, just changed hands, much like buying an item off a vendor.

Go after the dupers, and let the RMT'ers run their business. I have actually seen them advertise to buy stuff from players, to resell of course. but there again, it'[s stuff that's ingame naturally and already.

Just my (vendorable) 0.02
I'll agree with Duping hurt the economy far more, but RMT as an institution does have some share in the devaluation of game play.

My personal thoughts on it are a bit complex, there are different tiers of RMT that goes on. Your example where you farmed 100 mil, then sold it would as you said have very little impact on the game provided you farmed it using legal means. When this is the case I view it as the bottom tier. These folks are those that farm gold and items, buy low sell high, hit every EM Event character and sell drops if they get one, etc. all without using any illegal method, no scripts, no bots, or anything else that gives them an advantage. These guys are small potatoes and have minimal impact on anything, and if this was the only way RMT'ers were getting their inventory to sell I doubt it would be as controversial a topic as it is.

What is the bigger problem are the RMT'ers that make use of any or all of the above illegal methods, and it isn't coincidence they are often either the people doing the duping or associated with the folks doing the duping in some manner or another. These folks have wasted man hours in development time trying to combat their actions. It is RMT'ers who deal in houses that are largely to blame for the IDOC changes that went in over the years, it was Gold Sellers that scripted resources to sell in order to build up inventory that helped lead to resource randomization. They've played a hand in the introduction of what many consider Quality of Life Dis-improvements over time.

RMT is part of a bigger problem with UO, unfortunately it is also in some cases a driving factor in some of the other serious issues the game faces. They have been a factor in making Scripting and Boting so popular, that they've set up a system where they appear to be everywhere at once using those methods and the visible inaction against them have made the "risk" factor negligible to many increasing the popularity of these forms of cheating, they aren't the only cause, but they certainly helped.

Ultimately you are right on one thing, the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of EA and Origin/Mythic/Broadswords during their respective time managing the game. The pitiful numbers put out in each newsletter are a joke when you look at how prevalent, and blatant those activities are in the game.

First off without duping, RMT would never exist. Sure some people could sell their gold stashes after they farm it up, but no one would waste rl cash on a website if you couldn't dupe. If you fix the duping RMT sites will disappear in less then a year, once their stockpiles run dry.
At this point Duping being fixed wouldn't end RMT. It would change the nature of it, you'd still have EM's acting as rares vending machines and RMT'ers using bots etc. to take advantage of each and every event. Houses can't be duped and they are a big ticket RMT item the same with accounts. Then you have the sites that deal in everyday items, not rares and not primarily gold. From what I've seen these guys are buying gold from players, then when someone buys an item from their site, if they don't have something on hand they buy the item from a player vendor and X-fer to their buyers location (which btw is another reason I dislike shard shields it facilitates this with no profit to BS).
 

Larisa

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as far as I always knew the only reason Stratics did not allow it is because it was the "Unofficial, Official Forum".... since that ship has sailed... *shrugs*
No, the reason we do not allow it is because we still abide by the rules set forth by Broadsword....as per their ToS, RMT is prohibited..UNLESS express written permission is given by Broadsword, therefore RMT is prohibited here as well. Someone has to follow the rules, yes? :)
 

Nexus

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Also... seeing as how UO now has their "Official Forum" I see no reason why Stratics does not reverse their own policy when it comes to RMT posts in trade forums. I mean heck, that would increase traffic to the site and increase revenue Stratics as well... as far as I always knew the only reason Stratics did not allow it is because it was the "Unofficial, Official Forum".... since that ship has sailed... *shrugs*
Because there is a difference between doing what's right and what's easy. Promoting fair play in accordance with the rules is what is right, even if it isn't what is most profitable.
 

Kylie Kinslayer

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No, the reason we do not allow it is because we still abide by the rules set forth by Broadsword....as per their ToS, RMT is prohibited..UNLESS express written permission is given by Broadsword, therefore RMT is prohibited here as well. Someone has to follow the rules, yes? :)
Well, I mean in the end that is the decision of those at the helm :)

Just not a decision I would make if I were at the helm as Stratics is a stand alone brand and has to make the best decision it can to be viable.
 

Ruppy2

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Absolutely find as long as following not done.. in game mechanic against TOS , no duping, and/nor no Russian involvement.
 

Ezekiel Zane

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First off without duping, RMT would never exist. Sure some people could sell their gold stashes after they farm it up, but no one would waste rl cash on a website if you couldn't dupe. If you fix the duping RMT sites will disappear in less then a year, once their stockpiles run dry.

Sure it would. Even without duping after 22 years, there's trillions of gold in the game.
 

Ezekiel Zane

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RMT existed LONG before Duping.. and a TON of cash was made during that time as well. Or were you not around for the $12-15+ a mil days?

Someone may know more accurately but I remember hearing about castles and even some Luna houses that sold for $1000s.

Anyone know with certainty what the highest prices ever paid for a UO house or castle?
 

Nexus

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Someone may know more accurately but I remember hearing about castles and even some Luna houses that sold for $1000s.

Anyone know with certainty what the highest prices ever paid for a UO house or castle?
Back before Ebay banned virtual goods, I remember seeing houses going for several thousand, I think $5000 is the highest I personally saw but that was a long long time ago.
 

Xris

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Sure it would. Even without duping after 22 years, there's trillions of gold in the game.
Plus there's "other ways" to get UO stuff at a discount. It's too much effort for me, but you can get lower prices and resell (unless they found a way to fix this). RMT is in almost every mmo, regardless of how bad (or absent) duping is.
 

Xris

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Someone may know more accurately but I remember hearing about castles and even some Luna houses that sold for $1000s.

Anyone know with certainty what the highest prices ever paid for a UO house or castle?
I remember hearing a story someone traded their Ford explorer for midnight bracers. Not sure if it was true.
 

Val-Tur

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RMT is the bane of MMO's. It usurps the game or servers natural and intended economic controls & establishes am un-regulatable influence on the game economy. Games are supposed to be about an escape from the grind of real life & all its all too easily corrupt influences. RMT basically breaks a games immersion beyond repair. I have seen this happen over and over for the last 20 + years. So I know what I am talking about.
 

Lord Frodo

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5K-6K for a Castle and 10K+ depending on what what on the account
 

Blackie

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When you "fight" RMT to stave off "cheating and scripting" you've got to be ruthless and ban everyone or ban nobody at all. It's safe to say UO picked the later road and I'm pretty sure EVERYONE uses one helper program or another these days. Not everyone scripts, many don't know how, but far more do than can be banned at this point I would guess. This old game needs the subs.

My opinion - whether you're spending time or spending money to attain a goal there is a cost to you either way. It takes time to make money anyway. Some games where progression is built in, like wow, can be impacted hugely if someone goes the RMT route to get ahead but in UO there is no such progression, the game doesn't reset every expansion etc. 20 years later and having largely ignores scripters is proof enough that they don't kill the game imo.

Dupers however, those who push a button and create unlimited wealth for themselves, those do kill the game. A scriptor makes his toon work but it's doing the same as every player is. A duper is bypassing mechanics completely and making achieving anything at all meaningless. I can't even collect rares because I know a 1 of 10 is probably a 1 of 50 and a 1 of 1 is probably 1 of too many now. EM items make it worse, limited edition new items are not rares, they are controlled greed.
 

SugarMMM

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Since we have this thread going could you add a poll to see where people sit on this?
 

Ezekiel Zane

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Back before Ebay banned virtual goods, I remember seeing houses going for several thousand, I think $5000 is the highest I personally saw but that was a long long time ago.
Ah, good ole eBay. I'd totally forgot that UO was the reason I created my eBay account. I do remember seeing some castles sell for $2k-3k.
 

Lord Frodo

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10k for an account :eek:

I'd like to know what was on it to sell for that...
It was on E-Bay with a castle, lots of goodies and fully scrolled out chars from bata day 1. Couldn't believe it myself but I guess some people out there wanted it very badly.
 

Luc of Legends

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Ok, if the game developers are the ones doing the RMTing then it doesn't hurt the game. Because they control the flow of items/gold.

If it is an outside party, it does hurt. If I remember right there was/is a gold dupe. Well if you are duping gold for RMTing. The amount of gold in game can not be control and the economics goes nuts. Kinda of like where we are now.

Any economics system needs a checks and balances system. Someone has to control this. Better the developers since the money can go into make the game better than into some random person who may or may not care.
 

Ruppy2

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RMT is the bane of MMO's. It usurps the game or servers natural and intended economic controls & establishes am un-regulatable influence on the game economy. Games are supposed to be about an escape from the grind of real life & all its all too easily corrupt influences. RMT basically breaks a games immersion beyond repair. I have seen this happen over and over for the last 20 + years. So I know what I am talking about.
RMT is the only thing that has kept this thing going this long.
 

Victim of Siege

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Sure it would. Even without duping after 22 years, there's trillions of gold in the game.
and thousands upon thousands of rares, scrolls, arties, and other desirable items they will sell to reallocate the gold. The only way to fix anything is to remove the human desire to take a shortcut to the end game. good luck with that by the way. it's hardwired in us to find the easy way to survive and unfortunately has trickled over into victory in any competition we are in. sure some of us can resist it, but the desire to do it is always there.
 

ShriNayne

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Too many decisions seem to feed the scripters and starve everyone else, they could have looked at how other games dealt with these problems, instead they just compounded the problems with poor handling and the wrong choices. I still cannot understand why our producer refuses to make EM items shard-bound there is just no explanation for it, she won't even explain why she is so adamant, EM event items BELONG on the shard where the event was held. :(
 

Max Blackoak

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while I never used RMT I don't believe RMT is the reason for the inflation UO has suffered over the years. Duping had a negative effect but even more so did the introduction of Trammel which provides 100% safe places to script farm in combination with a dev team that failed to police this strictly.
Look at the Siege Perilous economy for example: the economy is not nearly as inflated as on prodo shards. while afk scripting definitely does exist there it is being policed by the players because once an afk scripter has been found he or she will be killed quickly and usually the location will be shared with the red population. Many of the dupes in the past used the shard transfer system which doesn't work on Siege either.
 

Quatermain

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If the 'official in-game store' offered the items and gold in various sized bundles that 'RMT sites' have, then the money would go to the right place.

Buying money and items, from available sources, is always needed in online games, to allow players who want to, to pay more to maintain their rate of development, towards 'endgame'.

It just needs to be 'legalised'.

BTW; purchases made in the 'official store in-game' are still RMTs.
 

TB Cookie [W]

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I am OK with it, I've voted for Agree.

I'm a very old school player, with old school ethics, but I can justify this in a lot of ways.

1. It's certainly the way of the gaming world right now, any game you care to mention. My kids are on Fortnite, Roblox etc. I'm on War Robots on the Ipad. For me - a fundamental issue for RMT games is that - you must be able to achieve the RMT trades, and the gaming progression without paying RL cash if you wanted to... It just must be harder, and take longer. War Robots handles this beautifully, players buy good robots, gear etc, but I play 10x better and harder than everyone else, and I achieve the same, it allows all player styles, and people from all different life backgrounds to play equally. I always chose to never buy ingame items, but the fact I am in there playing harder to achieve the same, means they have an active player making the game happen. Even in an RMT world, I believe the ability to have choice, and your own ethical compass, is important - and tbh, don't whine about it, unless it gets right out of balance.

2. It's a fact in PvP in this game, a huge percentage of PvPers are buying stuff for RL cash. Again, this does not bother me, a. it boosts my own personal pride - players are having to spend money, (or use software) to be anywhere near as good as me or b. it actually gives other players a chance to play at my level, and compete with me. What I cannot handle, is when the bias gets unfair, out of balance. IE, you can buy, or cheat to have an "IWIN" button. This also upsets me, when the Devs accidently create "IWIN"templates, and the feeling of equality is not there.

3. In this game, Scripting has been a problem. But you will note, I've not been against scripting in itself. I can understand scripting/macroing, for training skills, or even crafting, they've made it so difficult in this game in some aspects - to beat Scripters, they've made it impossible for normal players. But again, choice of how you play is important. I can choose to Mine properly, I enjoy that, or I can chose to script. I personally think it is below the belt to script, or use software in pvp, but again, it's choice. Now for me - it isn't necessarily the scripting that is a problem. Here is a little anecdote from my gameplay within the last 2 hours - we did a Harry on Atlantic, it popped in Fire lvl 2, and when we got there, there was a scripter farming demons, now, this is Felucca, we killed him - and that is exactly how it should be. He scripted, but he took a risk, we were able to use Player Justice to kill him, and stop him, no need to call in the "authorities" or get wound up about it. But as I say, what bothers me, is when things get out of balance - IE Trammel. There is no way to stop Scripting in Trammel. So it has run unchecked, and unbalanced, and ruined the game.


So for me - I am certainly OK with RMT - I chose not to use it myself, but I'm ok that other players do, and get to play with me, at my level due to it. I'm ok, to have to work 10x harder, to achieve what an RMT player gets, I get a feeling of pride from it. But - maintaining game balance is absolutely key. As I say, War Robots on the ipad, has maintained a perfect balance, and I've played it for 3 years, without spending anything. I'm very rare in that sense, I get the feeling, I achieved it all by my own effort and skill, and that is important to me. Others, don't have time in their life, but do have excess cash, and want to just play, without doing the boring grinding bits. That's ok.
 

MalagAste

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There are ways to stop scripters in Trammel... you just have to be more creative... I remember doing things like... taming and releasing dragons in their recall spots... moving all the bulls outside the pen when I'd see someone scripting taming in Jhelom... or leading them through moongates to dangerous places... for script rail runners...

I would drop stacks of the good wood next to them where they were scripting stuff and come by every hour or so and pick up the fruits of their labor...

Truth is and NONE of you have touched on this 99% of all scripting is done via added programs to the CC... if they did away with that most scripters would be unable to cheat. There are many things in the EC to prevent a lot of the cheating you see in the CC... like you can't "follow" in the EC... and other things like resource targetting are vastly different...

But they continue to allow the use of many of the third-party programs that allow tons of AFK scripting... and I'm not about to name them... but you all know what they are.
 

Uriah Heep

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But they continue to allow the use of many of the third-party programs that allow tons of AFK scripting.
At one time there was some talk about 'why' they let that continue...think of that however you like.

Personally, I wish the script miners would get back to work, I need ingot prices to drop a bit before I have to buy again LOL.

And NO, I am not gonna spend my gametime recalling around mining and crossing my fingers that I get what I need-ain't happenin'
 

Lord Arm

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a lot of real money is use on these sites. much of it would of gone to EA/Broadsword.
 
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