Casting holy magic while in a necro form should harm you

[Sarphus]

Using garlic-based spells while in vampire form harms you.

I think it only makes sense that using holy magic while in necro forms should harm you too.

A change like this would immediately fix a number of exploits that are commonly used to solo things that weren't intended to be solo'd. It would also trigger a lot of people to complain, because it would mark a significant slice out of character power (which makes content actually challenging).

For example, if you are under the effect of enemy of one and hit something with a leech effect from necro, the 2 abilities should counteract and prevent you from leeching the whole amount.

 

[phantus]

It should but it would be considered class based and that makes people cry.

 

[Prince Caspian]

Agreed. I always thought a Paladin casting Necromancer spells was ludicrous. The two are absolute extremes that should never mix.

I think if you cast any kind of Necro spell as a Paladin (or vice versa), you take the offending skill score in damage.

 

[Tovladian Soltyr]

That all may very well be true but it also abolishes the posibilities of a "Shadow Knight" which is a cross between a Necro and a Paladin in the greater scheme of things. The game does need better balancing but that's the problem and the benefit with UO not being level based, with level based games it's easier to balance the classes, but with UO there is so much potential that it's not funny and when they balance one thing it normally unbalances something else.

With UO is like a game of Jinga, they have to be careful what they move around and take out and put in cause it could just bring the whole tower down.

 

[Prince Caspian]

That all may very well be true but it also abolishes the posibilities of a "Shadow Knight" which is a cross between a Necro and a Paladin in the greater scheme of things. The game does need better balancing but that's the problem and the benefit with UO not being level based, with level based games it's easier to balance the classes, but with UO there is so much potential that it's not funny and when they balance one thing it normally unbalances something else.

This raises a good point, and a tangent point....

Namely, thanks to roleplaying games in general, we all have a stark definition of what a paladin is all about. Virtually any other adventuring class can be approached in many different ways, but a paladin to us RPG nerds is the standard issue AD&D first edition definition -- aka a stalwart holy warrior in the Christian Crusader mode who is dedicated to the absolute eradication of evil.

But its easy to forget (and I admit I did, even in the post a few minutes ago) that Ultima Online isn't AD&D. First of all, it doesn't have classes per se. Second of all, what it calls a Paladin may not fall into the traditional conventions. Indeed, even concepts like "Holy Light" which we would feel by our basic theological principles, would damage something like a necromancer because it is a spiritually pure power. Maybe not.

Erm. I don't think I have a point here... but...

*edit for afterthought*
There were no paladins in the Ultima games, as far as I remember (Dupre was a knight, not a pally... huge difference). In fact a paladin does kind of require a monotheistic God. And the Ultima world has no gods. Only principle virtues.

 

[Sarphus]

That all may very well be true but it also abolishes the posibilities of a "Shadow Knight" which is a cross between a Necro and a Paladin in the greater scheme of things. The game does need better balancing but that's the problem and the benefit with UO not being level based, with level based games it's easier to balance the classes, but with UO there is so much potential that it's not funny and when they balance one thing it normally unbalances something else.

With UO is like a game of Jinga, they have to be careful what they move around and take out and put in cause it could just bring the whole tower down.

I always defined a shadowknight as a warrior that uses death magic.

I would define a Paladin as being a warrior that uses life magic.

I wouldn't define a warrior that uses death and life magic, because such an abomination doesn't make sense to me

When I think of a character that uses both death and life magic, I think of them being called a Dark Priest or a Heretic, but I can't conseptualize a heretical warrior.

Regardless of what you call things, I don't think it makes much sense for a character to be able to pray to a holy power to receive holy benefits while at the same time praying to an unholy power and receiving unholy benefits. That character consept just doesn't make sense to me in either a fantasy context or a real life context.

It never made sense to me in any game I played that someone could be both good and evil.

I think that the devs should implement game designs that don't prevent people from having both chivalry and necromancy on their template, but rather make it impractical to mix the 2 magics.

I also think there's room in UO for a holy magic school. Chivalry is more of a warrior magic... I would like to also see a priest magic someday (on the distant horison)

 

[Sarphus]

This raises a good point, and a tangent point....

Namely, thanks to roleplaying games in general, we all have a stark definition of what a paladin is all about. Virtually any other adventuring class can be approached in many different ways, but a paladin to us RPG nerds is the standard issue AD&D first edition definition -- aka a stalwart holy warrior in the Christian Crusader mode who is dedicated to the absolute eradication of evil.

But its easy to forget (and I admit I did, even in the post a few minutes ago) that Ultima Online isn't AD&D. First of all, it doesn't have classes per se. Second of all, what it calls a Paladin may not fall into the traditional conventions. Indeed, even concepts like "Holy Light" which we would feel by our basic theological principles, would damage something like a necromancer because it is a spiritually pure power. Maybe not.

Erm. I don't think I have a point here... but...

*edit for afterthought*
There were no paladins in the Ultima games, as far as I remember (Dupre was a knight, not a pally... huge difference). In fact a paladin does kind of require a monotheistic God. And the Ultima world has no gods. Only principle virtues.

I don't know about old ultima games... only ever played one of them at a friend's house once. Regardless, the npcs that train chivalry are called paladins.

UO isn't a class-based game. I agree. I'm not suggesting we make UO a class-based game either. I think it would be bad for UO to make it class-based.

I am suggesting that there be a penalty for casting holy spells while using unholy abilities. Personally, I don't think it makes sense to be able to make a chiv/necro, but I think the solution is to make such a character impractical.

The AoS devs tried to do this by tieing the effectiveness of each skill to your karma. This was a failed design, because several chivalry abilities still work very well with the worst possible karma (EOO & consecrate weapon). This allows people to be an extremely evil necromancer/dexer and exploit the power of 2 chivalry spells.

 

[trammelite]

IMHO the influence of karma on the spell effects on both skills already addresses what you try to nerf here.

reading such requests make me wonder, if people posting like that really play uo or just try to nerf everything imaginable to accelerate uo losing player base.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

There were no paladins in the Ultima games, as far as I remember (Dupre was a knight, not a pally... huge difference). In fact a paladin does kind of require a monotheistic God. And the Ultima world has no gods. Only principle virtues.

There were, and Dupre was one.

In u4 and u5, the "gimmick" of Paladins was that they used pole-arm weapons and could hit 2 tiles away.

Remember that each Virtue had its class.

Honesty, mage.
Valor, warrior.
Humility, shepard.
Honor, paladin.

Sorry....You are just factually wrong there.



-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

As to the main issue of the post, I can see both sides.

I've seen a grand total of two Necromancer-Paladins in-game, though.

I take it there's more now? Is this the replacement for samurai-necromancer?

At first blush....Isn't the Karma thing enough of a negative for that particular template? And isn't that template and its potential power enough of a reason to not change the long-standing practice of having Karma have an impact on Chivalry spells?

-Galen's player

 

[Turdnugget]

If i'm not mistaken, EoE and Consecrate don't last as long when you've got way bad karma...So those spells are quite as effective.

Why is everyone trying to get sampires/wammys nerfed even more? People say stuff in this game shouldn't all be soloable...

Someone dual clienting can do the same thing...

What about the people that want good items yet don't have the time to find a group to go hunting for big monsters/good loot? Should we say screw you guys?

How else can someone who plays casually afford to buy such items to be able to enjoy the game when they don't have the time to be searching for a group or they play odd hours when not lots of people are on?

If you're gonna say that a warrior in a necro form should be penalized for casting a Paladin spell, then so should mages for casting Paladin spells. I mean, they can cast an evil energy vortex, a poison field, a DEMON... They are casting diabolic spells as well...

How many people do you personally know that actually solo high end mobs with a sammy/whammy? We're talking Peerless here. Doom doesn't count because that can be solo'd by a few other templates. It seems that the Peerless soloing is the real issue with people here.

I think it's only on particular servers that this is a problem because people are chaining Peerless'. So they want everyone nerfed because they only want to do the easy Peerless instead of going to do something more 'challenging'.

 

[Prince Caspian]

There were, and Dupre was one.

In u4 and u5, the "gimmick" of Paladins was that they used pole-arm weapons and could hit 2 tiles away.

Remember that each Virtue had its class.

Honesty, mage.
Valor, warrior.
Humility, shepard.
Honor, paladin.

Sorry....You are just factually wrong there.



-Galen's player

Hm.

You're right. Dupre WAS couched as a paladin in U4.

Oops.

 

[Divster]

I have always regarded my main character as a dark paladin, I fail to see why his definition of "holy" must be tied to the same concepts as those of a "light" paladin. After all one that is holy to one religion, may well be considered unholy by another religions viewpoint. The gods that I serve are not yours and do not ask the same of me as yours. Why not remove mage weps from a mage as a mage is a mage and not a warrior? It is this ability to blend styles that makes this game the versatile gem that it is

 

[Xel Naga]

ZOMGWTFBBQ NERF EVERYTHING !!

 

[Sarphus]

If i'm not mistaken, EoE and Consecrate don't last as long when you've got way bad karma...So those spells are quite as effective.

Why is everyone trying to get sampires/wammys nerfed even more? People say stuff in this game shouldn't all be soloable...

Someone dual clienting can do the same thing...

What about the people that want good items yet don't have the time to find a group to go hunting for big monsters/good loot? Should we say screw you guys?

How else can someone who plays casually afford to buy such items to be able to enjoy the game when they don't have the time to be searching for a group or they play odd hours when not lots of people are on?

If you're gonna say that a warrior in a necro form should be penalized for casting a Paladin spell, then so should mages for casting Paladin spells. I mean, they can cast an evil energy vortex, a poison field, a DEMON... They are casting diabolic spells as well...

How many people do you personally know that actually solo high end mobs with a sammy/whammy? We're talking Peerless here. Doom doesn't count because that can be solo'd by a few other templates. It seems that the Peerless soloing is the real issue with people here.

I think it's only on particular servers that this is a problem because people are chaining Peerless'. So they want everyone nerfed because they only want to do the easy Peerless instead of going to do something more 'challenging'.

Yes, your chiv spell durations are penalized for being evil. At min karma EOO lasts 1.5 minutes, which isn't a harsh enough penalty to prevent people from exploiting it.

I'm actually not one of the people that thinks boss monsters shouldn't be soloable. I just think that soloing boss monsters should be more involved than repeatedly spamming a spell. Chiv/Necros with the right gear can do this pretty easily by casting EOO every 1.5 minutes and spamming consecrate weapon to always hit the target's weakest resist.

The thought process for soloing something "hard" shouldn't all happen at the character design/suit building part of the process. There should have to be very careful planning, but ALSO excellent execution of the plan.

Today's Chiv/Necro (I have one btw) defeats the intended design of Chivalry by just not caring what his karma is and spamming consecrate weapon. If that strategy isn't working for you, you need to tweak your gear. I don't even have the greatest weapons and it works great for me (too great).

Consecrate weapon doesn't last as long, but you can spam it to get the full effect of the spell. If you have max HCI and spam consecrate weapon with HML on your weapon (or wraith form) you can easily keep it going. I've done it... I've seen others do it.

The only things that a chiv/necro loses that a sampire had is the ability to critical hit, evade and heal with bushido. All easily overcome.

I think the real issue is that the devs can't make content that's hard without also making insta-kill people when you have a character that almost never misses and is completely healed every time they hit. I've been using my chiv/necro for crimson dragons and I have been able to easily outdamage any of my casters or tamers without even close to the same level of risk. I have found that caster necro templates can do almost as much damage, but to accomplish that they have to wear crazy SDI suits and get insta-killed pretty regularly (because an SDI suit that hits that hard also has 50 fire resist)

Maybe there aren't as many chiv/necros out there as I thought. Or maybe a lot of people haven't seen them, because the chiv necros are off soloing stuff. I play on a low population shard (Origin), so I often see people in overpowered templates soloing things. I'm often one of those people.

Ideally, I would like to see the really easy solo methodologies balanced out of the game and replaced with a more dynamic combat environment.

I would like to see chivalry scale to be more powerful at 120 chiv than it is at 80, but I would also like to see new chivalry abilities (high lvl ones) that allow a skilled paladin to solo high end content without "crossing the aisle" by casting necro spells.

 

[Divster]

Today's Chiv/Necro (I have one btw) defeats the intended design of Chivalry by just not caring what his karma is and spamming consecrate weapon. If that strategy isn't working for you, you need to tweak your gear. I don't even have the greatest weapons and it works great for me (too great).

Consecrate weapon doesn't last as long, but you can spam it to get the full effect of the spell. If you have max HCI and spam consecrate weapon with HML on your weapon (or wraith form) you can easily keep it going. I've done it... I've seen others do it.

but these spells can be spammed by a non necro player and as having necro also means you are having to throw more combinations in there, it is more effort to execute. your argument here is more against chivalry itself than against its use with necro

 

[Sarphus]

but these spells can be spammed by a non necro player and as having necro also means you are having to throw more combinations in there, it is more effort to execute. your argument here is more against chivalry itself than against its use with necro

Part of my argument is against how chivalry is balanced (or not balanced). Most of it is about how chivalry can be abused with necro.

If you took damage for casting consecrate weapon while in wraith or necro form it would be a lot harder to get away with spamming consecrate weapon, because you would be taking the damage from casting consecrate weapon on top of the damage done by the monster.

With minimum karma you can easily have 1.5 minute EOO and consecrate weapon while also having 30 second + corrupted weapon and your choice of wraith form (mana leech) or vamp form (lvl 4 poison immunity, MR and life leech)

Yes, these chiv spells can be spammed by a non-necro player, but there isn't a conseptual problem that you have with combining chiv with necro. You also don't have the balance problem, because no one except necro leeches health while doing damage.

IMO, it's ok for people to be able to hit really hard as long as those really hard hits don't also completely heal them of all damage.

 

[ColterDC]

Go do some reading about the Paladin before coming on here and telling us YOUR opinion of the Paladin.

You'd soon discover that even in the old D&D games a Paladin can be evil without losing his/her Paladin status.

 

[GL_Seller]

HAHAHA i love it the 99 necro nerf didnt screw up the template like people planned. So now we have to have another nerf because its so unfair.

There is a balance having low karma makes the spells absolutely suck and almost impossible to cast at some lvls. You have to keep up your fame/karma to be able to run both.

So shuddup stop whining and find another template to cry about.

Before you ask I have a sampire I solod almost everything in game. Including the crimson dragon.

 

[Sarphus]

HAHAHA i love it the 99 necro nerf didnt screw up the template like people planned. So now we have to have another nerf because its so unfair.

There is a balance having low karma makes the spells absolutely suck and almost impossible to cast at some lvls. You have to keep up your fame/karma to be able to run both.

So shuddup stop whining and find another template to cry about.

Before you ask I have a sampire I solod almost everything in game. Including the crimson dragon.

I'm not the one whining

Like I said, I'm talking about stuff I do that I recognize as being broken.


In response to Colter...
I think referencing D&D as research is irrelevant. This isn't D&D

I was referring to how the devs originally balanced the skill. It is obvious from how the devs "balanced" chiv/necro that they intended to make it impractical to be a necro with chiv. I am explaining how that design has failed and how I have exploited the failures in that design.

In a UO context, a necro/paladin doesn't make sense. Necro/Paladin was designed from day one to be either hot or cold. The failed design gave us lukewarm instead.

 

[ForTheOcean]

I'm not the one whining

Like I said, I'm talking about stuff I do that I recognize as being broken.


In response to Colter...
I think referencing D&D as research is irrelevant. This isn't D&D

I was referring to how the devs originally balanced the skill. It is obvious from how the devs "balanced" chiv/necro that they intended to make it impractical to be a necro with chiv. I am explaining how that design has failed and how I have exploited the failures in that design.

In a UO context, a necro/paladin doesn't make sense. Necro/Paladin was designed from day one to be either hot or cold. The failed design gave us lukewarm instead.

Who told you that it was intended to be one or the other? From the design of it, it appears to me to be difficult not impractical. If it was intended to be impossible to be necro and chiv, it seems would have been set up something like the virtue systems(They aren't even available for reds to look at) Most sampires and necro/chivs that I know have to go work their karma up before they do anything. It's the downside of having that template, perhaps every template should have to go kill worthless mobs for 20mins-1hr before going to kill anything.

Don't tell us what the developer's intend unless you, yourself, are a dev.

 

[Divster]

I don't see that it has failed, with negative karma you can forget about removing curse, effective heals or cures as well as significant reductions to spell durations. having to cast cons wep every cpl of seconds or so is pretty impractical to me as is a heal that only restores pitfull amounts of health and has trouble removing most cures not to mention the complete lack of ability to cast one of the most usefull spells in the chiv book (remove curse). If a player can juggle the constant need to cast cons wep as well as maintain his other needs then fair play to them they are working overtime and i do not see the problem with this

You said , if you have a good enough wep then your fine, well what if you don't have a good enough weapon? are seige players going to be effected by this outlook? it would be unfair to deny the many who do not have access to thier ideal gear the use of a skill simply because you have the luxury of having the gear you need.

 

[UOKaiser]

so maybe I'm calling for the wrong thing here... maybe what we need is to make spellcasting almost uninterruptable lol (PS... that would probably be very broken)

It's called protection spell. NoN-Interruptable by any means incase you wondering. Ps the fast cast penalty for it doesnt matter much in PVM just like this crazy balance=nerf=balance=nerf thing for chiv-necro in PVM. The only way to balance characters in PVM is to make all monsters the most a 150 hp and have the same caps as players. Which of course balance is the same word as nerf remmember that.

 

[Sarphus]

It's called protection spell. NoN-Interruptable by any means incase you wondering. Ps the fast cast penalty for it doesnt matter much in PVM just like this crazy balance=nerf=balance=nerf thing for chiv-necro in PVM. The only way to balance characters in PVM is to make all monsters the most a 150 hp and have the same caps as players. Which of course balance is the same word as nerf remmember that.

Forced FC 0 is an absolutely huge penalty. I used to run protection in pvm on my spawner. Eventually I scrapped it, because I was killing things slower than I wanted to. It's not that it didn't work, but keep in mind that dexers don't sacrifice swing speed in order to hit almost every time.

I don't see balance and nerf as being synonyms. Balance implies that you are adjusting the power of something with respect to other things. Nerf implies you are making something weak. I guess sometimes they would be synonyms

I don't see that it has failed, with negative karma you can forget about removing curse, effective heals or cures as well as significant reductions to spell durations. having to cast cons wep every cpl of seconds or so is pretty impractical to me as is a heal that only restores pitfull amounts of health and has trouble removing most cures not to mention the complete lack of ability to cast one of the most usefull spells in the chiv book (remove curse). If a player can juggle the constant need to cast cons wep as well as maintain his other needs then fair play to them they are working overtime and i do not see the problem with this

You said , if you have a good enough wep then your fine, well what if you don't have a good enough weapon? are seige players going to be effected by this outlook? it would be unfair to deny the many who do not have access to thier ideal gear the use of a skill simply because you have the luxury of having the gear you need.

I was deducing that it was a failed design, because it is obvious they intended to make it hard to run chiv with negative karma.

You raise a good point with Siege, though. I think I might be making an inaccurate assumption when I assume my dexer gear is low end. Everything I said is based initially on my own experiences on my necro/chiv dexer, who can solo things with less thought than any of my other characters. Judging by the feedback I got, I can only assume one of two things.
1. People are responding negatively, because they don't want their sugar daddy char nerfed.
2. My assumptions that my gear is below average were false.

I'm leaning toward #2... maybe the balance issue isn't as big as I thought.

 

[UOKaiser]

Forced FC 0 is an absolutely huge penalty. I used to run protection in pvm on my spawner. Eventually I scrapped it, because I was killing things slower than I wanted to. It's not that it didn't work, but keep in mind that dexers don't sacrifice swing speed in order to hit almost every time.

I don't see balance and nerf as being synonyms. Balance implies that you are adjusting the power of something with respect to other things. Nerf implies you are making something weak. I guess sometimes they would be synonyms

I run whith protection on my mage most of the time and buffed up my spelldamage abilities so it takes fewer shots to kill anything. I have to say my mage is the biggest burst damage dealer I have. I take off protection when not needed. The difference between the mage and dexter is that mage can hit from far away and just keep running around precast send something to distract the creature and fire at will which I do. The dexter has to go face to face with the creature getting hit very very hard 50+ damge per hit for high end and the spellcasters that also hit hard are chain shooting whith no delays.

Yep they are synonyms in this type of topics. Because as you said nerf making something weak and everytime we balance something we make it weaker. Now if for once we balance something to make templates stronger to keep in line with these superhuman beast now that would be a balance i would like to see. 1 hit kills and 2-3 hits in less than a micro second are not fun. But unfortunetly everytime they "Balance" something they just nerf it instead of what they should really do and bump up the abilities of all templates.

Indeed in order to solo any of these creatures that you do you have to have top end gear and skills have to be maxed out for the specific character. Siege and many other players without the resources,abilities,gold,or time can never do it.

 

[Divster]

Forced FC 0 is an absolutely huge penalty. I used to run protection in pvm on my spawner. Eventually I scrapped it, because I was killing things slower than I wanted to. It's not that it didn't work, but keep in mind that dexers don't sacrifice swing speed in order to hit almost every time.

I don't see balance and nerf as being synonyms. Balance implies that you are adjusting the power of something with respect to other things. Nerf implies you are making something weak. I guess sometimes they would be synonyms




I was deducing that it was a failed design, because it is obvious they intended to make it hard to run chiv with negative karma.

You raise a good point with Siege, though. I think I might be making an inaccurate assumption when I assume my dexer gear is low end. Everything I said is based initially on my own experiences on my necro/chiv dexer, who can solo things with less thought than any of my other characters. Judging by the feedback I got, I can only assume one of two things.
1. People are responding negatively, because they don't want their sugar daddy char nerfed.
2. My assumptions that my gear is below average were false.

I'm leaning toward #2... maybe the balance issue isn't as big as I thought.

Don't get me wrong here you have brought up some good points, however i feel that any decision to force paladins to be good would be a mistake simply because there is no other skill in the uo world that forces you to choose between one or the other and it is this variety of choice that in my opinion is one of, if not its greatest, attributes there is a huge variety of combinations to choose from instead of your averaage warrior, mage,hunter type classes

 

[laurlo]

then you'll get "what about dark paladins?" outcries...

 

[Lord Kotan]

How many people do you personally know that actually solo high end mobs with a sammy/whammy? We're talking Peerless here. Doom doesn't count because that can be solo'd by a few other templates. It seems that the Peerless soloing is the real issue with people here.

Yeah.. Bards can solo stuff.. maybe we should nerf them. Tamers can solo peerless - those need to be fixed too. Seems like OP doesn't think warriors should be in the same class as his dragon

 

[Lord Kotan]

Sarphus, paladin abilites are already weaker than a normal paladin. For example, Concerate weapon only last 6-7 seconds instead of 11+. Enemy of one last only about 60% of the time. Forget Remove curse, you fail 95% of the time (because of karma loss from nerco).

To add damage to forms, they should remove the karama penilities.

 

[Messiah]

Wow you guys pancake a lot... First you bitched until we could no longer use items to get in vamp form (which I could see). So we totally remade our template to fit 100 necro into our PvM template and now your pancakes about that? We've lost an entire 100 skill, I think that's punishment enough..:gun:

 

[Lord Kotan]

Wow you guys pancake a lot... First you bitched until we could no longer use items to get in vamp form (which I could see). So we totally remade our template to fit 100 necro into our PvM template and now your pancakes about that? We've lost an entire 100 skill, I think that's punishment enough..:gun:

I agree with your point. That was the real "exploit" or "bug". Casting concenrate weapon and a nerco spell is not a bug or exploit.

 

[5% Luck]

Necro spells already hurt karma and that makes you a weak paladin. If you only do it once in a while its upkeep is still quite tough to work around. Just hink of keeping up with sacrifice. Thats not easy and being a Fallen Paladin isnt easy either.

Ever try it?

 

[Sarphus]

Necro spells already hurt karma and that makes you a weak paladin. If you only do it once in a while its upkeep is still quite tough to work around. Just hink of keeping up with sacrifice. Thats not easy and being a Fallen Paladin isnt easy either.

Ever try it?

No I'm just talking out my ass...

Of course I tried it. Not only did I try it, but I posted that I have have a necro/chiv/dexer at least twice in this thread already. My prefered char template for crimson dragons is necro/chiv/dexer, cause I can hit as hard or harder than any other template I've tried and have a more survivable character.

Kotan:
Sorry I used the word exploit... I didn't mean it in that it was a bug exploit. It's more of an exploit in the sense that you are exploiting the advantages of being able to massively buff your damage against the targets weakest resist and heal yourself completely with every hit. All that compounded with the fact that a high end dexer rarely misses. I am convinced that the devs who originally designed necro and chiv never intended people to have both skills, though.

 

[Maplestone]

The royal inquisitor is an honorable man, but he's not about to let a little think like death allow a prisoner to stop answering questions.

chivilry + necromancy

 

[Turdnugget]

They better bring back REAL thieves before they even think about damaging a player in necro from using paladin skills.

Talk about something that is ef'd up. A true thief is not an arty thief, and nowadays that's about all they're good for and the ocassional powerscroll thief which isn't all that common.

 

[Maplestone]

*you notice Turdnugget stealing a thread*

 

[Shelleybean]

Using garlic-based spells while in vampire form harms you.

I think it only makes sense that using holy magic while in necro forms should harm you too.

A change like this would immediately fix a number of exploits that are commonly used to solo things that weren't intended to be solo'd. It would also trigger a lot of people to complain, because it would mark a significant slice out of character power (which makes content actually challenging).

For example, if you are under the effect of enemy of one and hit something with a leech effect from necro, the 2 abilities should counteract and prevent you from leeching the whole amount.

Using necromancy + chivalry is not an exploit. The karma tied to each skill keeps things in balance.I can't solo any bosses in the game, but I don't feel the need to stop those who can. Why are players so obsessed with nerfing warriors?? Good grief, we have had more nerfs than every other class except for thieves. There's nothing here except taking away more fun yet again.

 

[Shelleybean]

IMHO the influence of karma on the spell effects on both skills already addresses what you try to nerf here.

reading such requests make me wonder, if people posting like that really play uo or just try to nerf everything imaginable to accelerate uo losing player base.

Yes, you are 100% correct.

 

[Vyrquenox]

---------------------------
sarphus said:
Kotan:
Sorry I used the word exploit... I didn't mean it in that it was a bug exploit. It's more of an exploit in the sense that you are exploiting the advantages of being able to massively buff your damage against the targets weakest resist and heal yourself completely with every hit. All that compounded with the fact that a high end dexer rarely misses. I am convinced that the devs who originally designed necro and chiv never intended people to have both skills, though.
-------------------------------

Listen, barrel of amoebas, doing anything that is to your advantage is an exploit. I explained this before. You exploit things every single minute. Stop using that stupid word and stop insinuating that exploiting things is inherently bad. I just exploited the fact I own a bed last night. Nobody cares what you are convinced the devs originally thought about anything, and nobody cares what you are convinced they intended. The whole bloody arguement about sampire was based on people screaming exploit and 'not intended'. This whole flippin game was designed around the idea 'lets throw all this together and see what happens." Unintended results was a virtue, remember, so that isn't inherently bad either. And I second the motion and already said someone will start flipping out on semantics and intentions about chivalry necro nonsense the minute they realize that people are still actually casting vampiric form. Just cut to the chase and say it: Please pretty please remove the spell. That's what you want. The spell itslef is inherently THERE and nerfing and bandaging wrecking balls around every aspect of it do nothing but waste people's time and upset everybody for no good reason at all. It's like drowning while people argue over the quality of the water.

 

[Harlequin]

There were, and Dupre was one.

In u4 and u5, the "gimmick" of Paladins was that they used pole-arm weapons and could hit 2 tiles away.

Remember that each Virtue had its class.

Honesty, mage.
Valor, warrior.
Humility, shepard.
Honor, paladin.

Sorry....You are just factually wrong there.



-Galen's player

Yes, Dupre is a paladin. I remember because paladins in U4/5 could wear the best magic armor (there's a long ways until you get mystic armor) and still cast spells (half the mp of Mariah the mage).

The poleaxe/halberd was cool, esp when you can whack away at dragons behind walls, then open the hidden door to get their loot. But I think Geoffrey the fighter can use them as well.

About the ability to use both necro and chiv, IMHO, that's one of the beauty of UO. You have total freedom to combine any skills you want, no class based restriction.

Which means the original designers had thought about players using both necro and chiv in the same template. They decided that it would be a bit too powerful. Thus, they made all necro spells reduce karma, and then made the effectiveness of chiv spells based on karma.

A nerf before it was released.

I for one prefer my paperdoll to say "Glorious Lord/Lady Dupre" rather than "Despicable Lord Dupre". One reason is image - would you hesitate when buying a house from from a despicable player? An even more practical reason would be to avoid attacks by pixies, unicorns etc.

Now that sampires are nerfed, to survive, people are finding it neccessary to go full out and forgo karma. Alot of sampires have dropped healing in favor of necro, since healing was mainly used to x-heal/rez other people.

Double edged situation actually. As a warrior, I apologize to ghosts and tell them I can't rez. But when I die as a tamer/mage/warrior, I find that more and more warriors can't rez.

But unless they make my warrior tank better than my GD, I am against having chiv spells harm you when you cast them in a necro from.

 

[Hera - Siege]

I have always regarded my main character as a dark paladin, I fail to see why his definition of "holy" must be tied to the same concepts as those of a "light" paladin. After all one that is holy to one religion, may well be considered unholy by another religions viewpoint. The gods that I serve are not yours and do not ask the same of me as yours. Why not remove mage weps from a mage as a mage is a mage and not a warrior? It is this ability to blend styles that makes this game the versatile gem that it is

QFT.

Just because an 'RP Style' of play doesn't allow for a necro-pally doesn't mean it shouldnt' be in the game. I think you'll find a majority of the people who play UO do not hardcore Roleplay, just as the majority of people who play do not hardcore PvP.

I'm a bit unfamiliar with the template, but I'm assuming the necro-dexxer does not have SS. So you're already gimped as far as Necro goes, you're just using it for Vamp Form for the leech and maybe curse weap/Corpse Skin? Plus you're heavily gear and karma dependent.

Either way, I don't think it needs to be adjusted, there's a handful of people who are good enough to solo with the template, there will always be a small amount of very skilled players who will find the optimal template.


Edit: And PS - I want a necro-weapon!

 

[Kiminality]

If paladin spells are so "light side", why can I use them against good-aligned creatures, or players?

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Nah, I'm fine with the Form spell fix as it is.

The template shouldn't have been so easy to pull off, but it shouldn't be entirely nuked either.

The idea of a necro/paladin doesn't really bother me too much, not nearly as much as the "workaround" to break the skill caps did.

I've seen other games where opposing forces used together can end up creating a VERY STRONG force in itself (MtG being a big one off the top of my head).

Personally, I have an idea or two for Chivalry, but they're probably too big for UO (and really too long for this post), but basically it boils down to... shouldn't a Paladin in UO be a force for a chosen Virtue? I.E. a Paladin of Honor, a Paladin of Compassion, etc. In that case you can make the argument that a Necro/Paladin would be a possible template for a Paladin of Chaos.

 

[Zalan]

Besides, one spell named Holy Light. There is nothing else Holy to a Paladin in UO. One thing about UO settings is there are No Gods. Paladins in generic sense draw there power from a God of some sort. Instead UO has virtues which is more of Code than a greater being.

There really is no Good Fiction in UO to even support Paladins. What do Paladins really even belive in that give them any sort of power. All they have is the Virtues. You could really argue even Paladins shouldn`t even exist in UO.

Dam Devs were the story to support the Paladins in UO?

 

[Juicy Fruit]

If I wanted to play a game where you had to pick evil charc or good charc, Fire mage or Light mage, etc etc, then I would be playing those games instead of uo where your template is what you make of it and there are so many choices and "no right way" to do it. Do not ask to nerf one of the best things about uo from day one.

 

[Maplestone]

There really is no Good Fiction in UO to even support Paladins.

Malas is the only facet without shrines to the virtues. Obviously in a land as ravaged by endless war of light and dark (before it became a quiet trailer park), the people there hold their virtues within themselves rather than within destructible monuments of stone.

 

[5% Luck]

How about remove the spirtspeak and make all necro spells (forms included) karma based like it always should have been. This way you would gain no benefit fro one or the other based on karma. Even at neutral karma neither would have an effect. Besides having a huge skil disadvantage for just one spell sux. And its killing my karma boosts on chive as is.

 

[Connor_Graham]

How about remove the spirtspeak and make all necro spells (forms included) karma based like it always should have been. This way you would gain no benefit fro one or the other based on karma. Even at neutral karma neither would have an effect. Besides having a huge skil disadvantage for just one spell sux. And its killing my karma boosts on chive as is.

How about we just leave it as it is since there's nothing wrong with it?


I'm about sick of these armchair developers that have nothing better to do with their time than think about ways to screw the game up for others. Others that in no way affect the AD's themselves.

 

[Sarphus]

How about remove the spirtspeak and make all necro spells (forms included) karma based like it always should have been. This way you would gain no benefit fro one or the other based on karma. Even at neutral karma neither would have an effect. Besides having a huge skil disadvantage for just one spell sux. And its killing my karma boosts on chive as is.

I think a change like that would grossly unbalance necros.

How about we just leave it as it is since there's nothing wrong with it?


I'm about sick of these armchair developers that have nothing better to do with their time than think about ways to screw the game up for others. Others that in no way affect the AD's themselves.

Aren't we all armchair developers to a degree? I mean seriously... Who doesn't propose new ideas whether it's ideas for new storyline content, skill changes, new content, etc. I think proposing new ideas is part of caring about the game.

I think that when a player proposes an idea instead of a dev, it lets the devs get free information about how the playerbase feels about a subject. This thread should clearly show the devs that the idea I proposed would be a bad idea and bad for UO, becuase it would frustrate too many players by changing something that breaks their characters.

I believe that as long as players explain clearly what the problems are with ideas there's nothing wrong with having a dialogue. Acutally, I think having a dialogue about ideas and game systems is a great idea. It's when people resort to a diatribe of personal attacks that nothing positive is accomplished.

In other words, attack the idea not the person. I think it's great to say "that's a bad idea and here's why" and it's completely unproductive to say "stop trying to nerf my toon you @#$@)@#$!".

 

[Divster]

Nicely summised Sarphus, though I disagree with your idea, I agree that discussion should be made as in this case it is clear how the majority of people who at least posted on the subject feel and those that at least posted civily regarding the issue made a better contribution than anyone who gets too personal in thier posts