Oh yes, because a small amount of people being able to kill high-end stuff solo causes SOOOOOO much damage to the game...
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So if I complain about a grossly overpowered part of the game, I'm jealous?
- Thread starter Extra Value Meal
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It seems he can only focus on the handful of good items Peerless rarely drop that are worth a millions. You know like Grizzled Mares, Tombstones, Crimmies, Crystalline Rings, stuff of that nature. Those are really rare drops, and considering how instanced corpses work you'd think the argument by the player base would be opposite of what you hear, so people could solo them giving them a better chance at getting one.
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Connor_Graham
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i agree with this portion of this post wholeheartedly. Maybe something you don't get is that the VE "nerf" is what all this originated from. I think the people crying "NO ONE, even people using valid skillsets, should be able to solo!" are just as bad as the people crying "WHY ARE YOU TAKING AWAY MY NO SKILL/NO ITEMS vamp form?!?!" The first group is crying because they are not able to do it (even tho it can be done with MANY valid/non-exploit templates) and the second group is crying because they can't exploit anymore.
I can do it in 4 minutes if I run my 2nd account on my laptop at the same time - I'll make a video for you after this joke of a patch goes into effect.
If I am not mistaken, that video was not a true solo, AND was using an exploit. As in, they had to have a 2nd character in there to discord/peace the peerless, and they were using an exploit to constant peace it.
As for the group/solo thing. The beauty of it is YOU DONT HAVE TO SOLO if you dont want to ... however you are aking that others HAVE to group, even if they don't want to? Just because YOU have no desire to personally challenge yourself in that way, others should not have the right to do so? I remember fighting AW's and Bally's with 2 dexers back when that was unheard of and an SOB to do ... not because it was expedient - it definitely wasnt and we would have made much more loot/gold doing something else! - but because it was a CHALLENGE.
Shimmer is an interesting peerless. It is the only one that gets HARDER with more people involved. The more people/pets IN the room, the more side spawn it produces. I don't know about 9 minutes, especially without discord, but I could see how a solo archer or possibly mage could EASILY do this one.
Side note - If the rest of the peerless were like that, that the difficulty ranged with the number of people involved, and if their loot drop was like a DF (more people = more loot dropped) then there would be incentive to do them with bigger groups. They would be more challenging. Please don't try to tell me the other peerless are ANY sort of challenge with more than 3 people, and some of them, even that is overkill! because they arent, they are just boring. Also ... I go with a group of 5 people ... what am I likely to get? One or two ingredients, 2-3 crap items, and MAYBE if I am SUPER lucky, I will get some peerless-unique item. Ya ... no thanks. I will keep doing it with 2-3 people.
Side note - If the rest of the peerless were like that, that the difficulty ranged with the number of people involved, and if their loot drop was like a DF (more people = more loot dropped) then there would be incentive to do them with bigger groups. They would be more challenging. Please don't try to tell me the other peerless are ANY sort of challenge with more than 3 people, and some of them, even that is overkill! because they arent, they are just boring. Also ... I go with a group of 5 people ... what am I likely to get? One or two ingredients, 2-3 crap items, and MAYBE if I am SUPER lucky, I will get some peerless-unique item. Ya ... no thanks. I will keep doing it with 2-3 people.
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I think all those videos are pretty much pre-publish 42 also where changes to how leeches and mana consumption from special strikes changed.
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Eslake
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I don't know where you get that idea, because UO was never designed in any way to be group-centric.
In fact, it wasn't until the addition of Champ spawns that anyone at OSI/EA ever even made mention of needing to group with others to fight something.
When EQ moved to top position in the MORPG world, the single largest complaint by players was Always the same one, that they HAD to group to accomplish goals that Every character would eventually have, regardless of how one actually wished to play the game.
Many of those unhappy players returned to UO.
Each successive new game that has effected UO's population has had that same issue. They all require you to depend on others to accomplish YOUR goals, and that keeps people turning back again and again to UO.
Look around in the game for a while.. Look where people are and what they're doing. Look at what is actually Being killed, and what sits unused.
The more people it typically takes to beat something, the less you see even bothering.
If requiring more players to beat something were actually somehow a BETTER way of doing things, why do you think the peerless that require the most to beat are also the least often visited?
How many visits do you think Paroxy gets a day compared to lady Mel? 2 vs 30 maybe? Because PoP "Typically" takes a full group at the minimum while lady mel can be taken by just a bard/mage and a full mage with relative ease if they are willing to invest the time.
It isn't rocket science after all.
If you sell socks and 90% of your customers buy blue socks, and only 5% buy red ones, you don't keep cranking out new styles in Red, you make them in Blue.
All the jewel-using sampires I know will have necro and spirit speak waiting on soulstones by the time Publish 56 hits. Two days to transfer skills, and they'll be right back to soloing. I wonder what the tamer patrol will find to cry nerf about then?
God forbid that the top PvM bosses, which consist of less than 1% of the entire UO PvM content, can be soloed by maybe 1% of the playerbase...
Why should we be subject to forced grouping just to get decent items, or to kill some monster?
Why should we be subject to forced grouping just to get decent items, or to kill some monster?
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Connor_Graham
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It has nothing to do with being antisocial. The majority of people that solo also fight the same thing in groups. They solo because they want the challenge.
There is zero challenge in making a Mel run with 4 people. Same with Travesty and others. That gets boring for a lot of people really quick. They still run them in groups because they enjoy spending time with their friends, WHEN those friends are on. Not everyone can be online at the same time.
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RoycroftLS
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It's forced grouping only if the rewards can't be obtained through any means other than through getting a group together. That is, if looted items are untradeable, or items are only distributed through a quest that requires a group to complete.
This isn't the case in UO. Items are tradeable except in rare circumstances. And if you have ever read a thread where someone complains about item's rarity, you certainly have read the numerous responses about how it is "easy" to obtain wealth through solo activities and exchange it for the desired rewards.
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You know I wouldn't have as much issue going out with groups to peerless and doom if it wasn't for one thing. I have a hard time finding people that know how or are willing to assist in getting the keys/skull to do such thing. Call the soloing players anti-social buttheads? Maybe they decided if they have to do the work to get in then why should someone else get a free ride.
Honestly I used to key for my guild a lot there was two of us that did all the keying for peerless except for Grizzle where we'd have a few more folks standing back while someone lured. Both of us quit keying peerless, and it turned to every night someone offering up a Mel run.....always Mel our interests in Peerless declined horribly. Well theirs did me and the other person were keying and going to peerless with just the two of us.....
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Connor_Graham
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It's forced grouping if you are forced to have a group to get the item on your own, without having to buy it.
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Once again I agree, players should have equal opportunity to acquire items without having to rely on player vendors, as long as their character has the skills and ability to do so. The odds of you getting a Crimmy or other top end peerless item are the same if it's 1 person killing it or 10. If you get looting rights it only does 1 check for your instanced corpse, where the difference comes in is that all the items that get split between players like ingredients and other loot all goes to the individual.
For the time involved in killing the Dreadhorn solo I could make much much more gold than the corpse drops, it's not a real issue.
Has the concept that a person COULD benefit from an imbalance (in this case being able to solo peerless) and STILL think that its wrong, ever occurred to you?
Hard to imagine I know, but it happens. Some people can see beyond their own greed and realize that problems like this are glaring symptoms of poor game design that are damaging the game as a whole.
The whole soloing issues is caused by and perpetrated by unlimited insurance. People who never lose thier items become uber powerful, and must the game must then be designed to make more and more powerful items and more and more powerful monsters (it might as well be a level grind) and the need to have these new items causes unchecked greed like we see in Lynks case:
This is is ALL The cause of unchecked item insurance. All it does is create a system where you have to have the best stuff all the time, and the players have to get stronger and stronger, and it just breeds greedy selfish attitudes like the one we see above. It's ruining the game.
And I for one would like to add this as an argument as to why peerless should not be soloable: They weren't designed to be. I remember them talking about how you would need a group to fight them. Wether they should be soloable or not isnt the issue, but rather the fact that they are, and were not intended to be.
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RoycroftLS
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Got a dictionary?
peerless:
Definition: having no equal
If you can solo it, then it goes against the entire premise of it being "peerless."
I totally agree with the op. Good post.
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Bodhi
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Ive said it many times before, some of us simply have a hard time forming a group to go peerless. Solo'ing solves this problem, and if a friend wants to join, i always let him, althou i even get the keys solo. So basically solo isnt asocial imo, it just gives me oppurtunity to have fun when others arent or cant come online... Time ratio solo <=> group makes it fair enough imo. Takes a lot longer getting keys, killing peerless then u would in group... I dont see any problems in the solo'in aspect of the peerless bosses...
Already takes enough hard earned gold and practice being able to solo, that i dont think anyone has the right to deprive someone else of pvm'ing... Earn gold like the rest, build a good gear, and go solo, i bet u will no longer complain. Doesnt mean because u can solo, that u cant go with a group...
Already takes enough hard earned gold and practice being able to solo, that i dont think anyone has the right to deprive someone else of pvm'ing... Earn gold like the rest, build a good gear, and go solo, i bet u will no longer complain. Doesnt mean because u can solo, that u cant go with a group...
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Connor_Graham
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If it has no equal than it wouldn't be able to be beaten period.
Kind of goes against the premise of the premise don't you think?
It's a name some Dev picked out, not the end all of what they are.
Nerf Extra Value meals! They are overpow3rd and they make you fat! I'm so mad about super size meals! We have to nerf them! Nerf nerf nerf!
In case you missed it, if you don't think soloing high end stuff is not heroic and doable in a fantasy setting, go tell that to Gandalf after he SOLO WTF PWNZERIZED the balroc of Mordor.
Yea that's what I thought. Gandalf would so pwn your nerfherding butt that you would be pooping Hobbit juice for years.
Go nerf up another game kthx
In case you missed it, if you don't think soloing high end stuff is not heroic and doable in a fantasy setting, go tell that to Gandalf after he SOLO WTF PWNZERIZED the balroc of Mordor.
Yea that's what I thought. Gandalf would so pwn your nerfherding butt that you would be pooping Hobbit juice for years.
Go nerf up another game kthx
My opinion is, the peerless and other mobs aren't tough enough. Some of them were long ago able to be soloed before the sampire's popularity. In EVERY online game I've played, there are good people who can solo tough mobs.
The options you have are to make monsters more difficult like someone said already...or in my opinion, add other dungeons which require you to group in order to enter.
That said, some people solo because for the most part, they have other obligations which prevent them from grouping. That's why other games have created classes like beastmaster and what not so that these people can do the same thing that groups are doing.
Last but not least, the before mentioned example stems from the fact that ALL of these other games have set "jobs" so to speak. So this begs the question: Do you want to be like all those other games? I don't...because I like the template variety that is allowed in the game.
In closing however, I do liken the mentioned template that everyone is belly-aching about...I do liken that to the taming skill. You should always have "x" skill in order to activate it. Anyone with common sense will adjust their skill as necessary in order to keep their template.
The options you have are to make monsters more difficult like someone said already...or in my opinion, add other dungeons which require you to group in order to enter.
That said, some people solo because for the most part, they have other obligations which prevent them from grouping. That's why other games have created classes like beastmaster and what not so that these people can do the same thing that groups are doing.
Last but not least, the before mentioned example stems from the fact that ALL of these other games have set "jobs" so to speak. So this begs the question: Do you want to be like all those other games? I don't...because I like the template variety that is allowed in the game.
In closing however, I do liken the mentioned template that everyone is belly-aching about...I do liken that to the taming skill. You should always have "x" skill in order to activate it. Anyone with common sense will adjust their skill as necessary in order to keep their template.
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RoycroftLS
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No, it just means there is no single person of equal status. A bunch of lower status people could, you know, combine their powers to beat it.
Like if you sent wave after wave of school children at a fully trained kickboxer...Sure at first he would have no problem dispatching the kids, but eventually the kickboxer would tire, and be smothered by flailing children.
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Fink
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I think the peerless bosses were intended to be a group thing, I read that in the ML texts, but the players have been known to surprise the devs before.
Soloing high-end mobs isn't anything new.. I recall about 8-9 years ago someone on the lumberjack forum managed to solo a balron over an hour and a half of jousting and falling back to heal (balrons used to be top monsters, lumberjacking + axe used to give a decent damage bonus to swordsmanship).
I think no matter how hard they make the top end of this game, players will always be resourceful enough to find a way to solo it. For similar reasons, and for the sheer freedom of UO's character system, nothing approaching balance between all playstyles will ever be achieved.
Soloing high-end mobs isn't anything new.. I recall about 8-9 years ago someone on the lumberjack forum managed to solo a balron over an hour and a half of jousting and falling back to heal (balrons used to be top monsters, lumberjacking + axe used to give a decent damage bonus to swordsmanship).
I think no matter how hard they make the top end of this game, players will always be resourceful enough to find a way to solo it. For similar reasons, and for the sheer freedom of UO's character system, nothing approaching balance between all playstyles will ever be achieved.
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Yea but he died doing so, and it took direct intervention of Eru Ilúvatar to resurrect him. Outside of getting seriously jacked up all of the wizards in Tolkien's writings were immortal so I don't think that was a good example.
And I don't really think him slaying the Balrog of Moria (not Mordor) was a WTF PWNZERIZED situation since it took 8 days, and they were pretty even matched to start with you know with both of them being maiar and all that....
Hahahahahaha... Thank you, I got a good minute or two laugh out of this comparison. Masterfully worded!!! I love watching UFC and my wife is a elemntary school teacher, so between the two it was an easy visual to come up with. Man I needed that today. Thanks again.
The obvious problem is that over time all Boss Mobs (*shrug* Group mobs) become trivial.
This is no phenomenon to UO, EQ basically did it every single time they released an expansion.
Want a laugh?
Consider that they have had what 28 expansions? Just think how terribly trivial the Original EQ Boss Mobs are now. So trivial that they imposed a level cap to fight the mobs, that level cap is just above mid-level, and when 2 of my characters were at the level cap, I 2 box'd the (Solo'd) boss mobs.
How disheartening this was, is this.
When EQ first came out, it took hours of large groups 20 to 40 (think front line fighters, rezers and healers out of the room) and the results were by no means guaranteed. The level cap at that time was 50.
The level cap to fight is 52. I did each in about 15 minutes each 2 box soloing them.
As I said, it took us hours with 10 times the number of characters, the first time.
You don't want this to happen? Simple, do not accept the premise that there must be something more powerful (itemization) to keep your interest. Other wise accept the inevitable and have fun as best you can.
This is no phenomenon to UO, EQ basically did it every single time they released an expansion.
Want a laugh?
Consider that they have had what 28 expansions? Just think how terribly trivial the Original EQ Boss Mobs are now. So trivial that they imposed a level cap to fight the mobs, that level cap is just above mid-level, and when 2 of my characters were at the level cap, I 2 box'd the (Solo'd) boss mobs.
How disheartening this was, is this.
When EQ first came out, it took hours of large groups 20 to 40 (think front line fighters, rezers and healers out of the room) and the results were by no means guaranteed. The level cap at that time was 50.
The level cap to fight is 52. I did each in about 15 minutes each 2 box soloing them.
As I said, it took us hours with 10 times the number of characters, the first time.
You don't want this to happen? Simple, do not accept the premise that there must be something more powerful (itemization) to keep your interest. Other wise accept the inevitable and have fun as best you can.
There is an old saying that I will update a tad bit.
Hercules had the strength of 10 men.
*Shrug* 10 men and a woman beats him in a tug of war.
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Shot
Guest
DF's drop very few items that are decent now. Peerless drop much better loot IMO.
The OP hit the nail right on the head.
The downfall of Uo will be when the Devs cave in and listen to the ADD whiners that want everything handed to them on a silver platter.
"I can't do EVERY SINGLE aspect of Uo by myself 10 minutes after I create a new character so im gonna quit"
*pukes*
I havent read the trilogy or the silmarillion in awhile but I believe that the wizards were outside of the Maiar no?
Kind of a middle earth emmisary/police force sent from overseas
And you are quite right as they were nowhere near Mordor when they fought. And wasnt it a Balrog? Not Balroc
Lol.
It doesnt affect anyone yet both sides are crying on the board for weeks?
Anyways, it is not about affect. It is about attempting to balance templates and curb abuse.
1) Being a solo player in no way grants you the right to abuse an item or template
2) Pretending that outfitting & playing an overpowered and abused template is hard does 0 to lend credibility
3) Take your minor nerf like an adult. Especially in light of the fact that all your fellow Sampire gimps claim that 1 hit on the old soulstone will still allow you to do business as usual lol.
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The wizards were Maiar that were sent to middle earth wrapped in the disguise of men to guide the races and help protect them from the Evil in the world, after Melkor came and started messing things up. Sauron was a Maiar that was corrupted by Melkor. If people that Sauron was bad he was just a shadow of Melkor in terms of power.
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Connor_Graham
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The ones doing the most crying are the ones against soloing, because well......they figured out that the change they asked for didn't do what they thought it would.
Templates are balanced now. I'm perfectly happy with the way they will be AFTER the change goes in. I've already adjusted my dexxer and am playing him as if the change had already occurred.
I'm sorry, what am I abusing? I've got 720 skill points and no skill jewels at all on my character, including GM Necro. Where's the abuse?
Please show me one single quote where I've said it did.
I think you're preaching to the choir, albeit in an insulting, childish manner. I've never said ANYTHING against the change.
Not.......one.........single........thing.
Maybe you should actually pay attention or at least read what I've written before posting about it. You might actually be accurate then.
People, Seriously, Can you tell me that MY wanting to solo a dang thing will reduce the level of play for you and YOUR group? Are you that hung up on how others are doing? It matters not to me your opinion on whether or not you approve of my character or whether or not I"exploit" the game. The fact is, soloing peerless or the Dark Father or whatever else I may fight doesn't effect other players gameplay. You going to sit there and tell me that BECAUSE soloing is taking place you get less loot or that your personnel play experience is crippled? Get over it. I play UO for the vast ways one can create and recreate thier characters and with the new monsters/events, not to chat it up with everyone. People can play for whatever reason they want. I say **** off unless you can show me how soloing can ruin YOUR game.