New URL Policy Revealed - UOGuide Complies (EA Rejects) [Updated Again, long title]

[Mongo The Dolt]

If everyone put as much effort into updating Stratics (most of it IS player written info) as has been put into UOguide, not to mention this thread, Stratics would be completely up to date and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This would not play into some people's vanity. Hosting their own site is more important, makes them feel somehow worthwhile.

 

[Arcus]

Just to add to that, what's to stop someone from marking a ton of runes and putting web addresses on them?

Nothing. I think I will just for the sheer stupidity of this whole situation.

 

[JC the Builder]

If everyone put as much effort into updating Stratics (most of it IS player written info) as has been put into UOguide, not to mention this thread, Stratics would be completely up to date and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This statement is wrong but I am not going to go into detail because it will stray far from the topic at hand. This is about fansites and EA trying to put too many controls on them. If you want to discuss that, go start another topic.

 

[Connor_Graham]

This statement is wrong but I am not going to go into detail because it will stray far from the topic at hand.

According to your OP:

Even though I disagree with it, I have removed all item sales from the UOGuide website. UOGuide is now in full compliance with this new policy and can once again be mentioned in-game. Thanks to all who use and help advertise UOGuide

The legality of UO guide IS the topic at hand, so no, my statement was not wrong.

 

[It Lives]

This statement is wrong but I am not going to go into detail because it will stray far from the topic at hand. This is about fansites and EA trying to put too many controls on them. If you want to discuss that, go start another topic.

Its about ea enforcing their policy.

I also read earlier in this thread that they were willing to help you find a solution.

IMO this is about you not getting your way once again, and publicly making the biggest fuss over it.

If the policy changes great! I am sure it will be for the better.

Maybe the change will damage you further(not all change is for the best).

One thing is for certain j.c., your creditability wont change.

 

[Bomb Bloke]

The policy DID change. It's still not perfect, but it changed.

Catch IS the only record of the fact that I know about is in this thread. I'm kinda doubting any of the GMs are gonna find out about it quickly.

Conner, I don't get how the OP has anything to do with the amount of time it would take to get Stratics up to date. The segment of your post JC quoted has nothing to do with the "legality of UOGuide".

 

[Aran]

This would not play into some people's vanity. Hosting their own site is more important, makes them feel somehow worthwhile.

Stratics isn't being updated.

UOGuide is.

Where's the vanity in somebody deciding "This **** needs fixed, we need an up to date resource for the players." ?

 

[Basara]

Stratics isn't being updated.

When you know what you're talking about, please speak up - be since you don't, please refrain from uninformed statements.

There was a push on to update Stratics contents underway when the equipment blunder (that was handled by people other than actual staff) occurred, and that has necessarily taken precendence over the updates. I was actually working ON a smithing section revision at the very time the servers got messed with by the host. Most of that data is now in the Smith FAQ, and will be moving to the skill boards later. For that matter, last summer and fall there was an organized effort to update the Hunters guide with ML pics to go with the 2D ones, and that too was underway in early 2008 - that hardly sounds like "isn't being updated"

If you were so concerned with Stratics updates, where were YOUR attempts to get things improved? It is a board that is assembled by submissions of relevant material - when's the last time you did so? I can point to the stratics BOD calculators, and the research that went into them, as relatively recent pre-crash updates I had a hand in.

 

[Anjeel]

Anyone who violates the TOS can be paged on -- that's not "harassment" or "griefing." JC was SELLING items on HIS SITE for REAL WORLD MONEY at one point. I don't think that's right, whatsoever!


Call me what you will, but he can't be allowed to do that in-game. It just can't be tolerated. There's a REASON why the GM SUSPENDED him last time. He was in VIOLATION of the TOS.

It doesn't matter who paged on him; the issue is, he violated the TOS and was slapped on the wrist for it. I'm just giving him fair warning that he shouldn't do that again.

He can choose to follow the rules and play this game according to the TOS that he agrees to every time he logs on OR he can not and face the consequences. The choice is entirely his own to make.

I hate to burst your bubble but selling items for cash has been legal for over 10 years

 

[Anjeel]

Ok, after several discussions between various folks of higher pay grade than me, we've hashed out the following (and yes, this will be in the FoF as well for wider distribution.)

1. Sites that sell things (any things, not necessarily UO things) for cash are definitely forbidden
2. Requests for donations are fine.
3. Ads are bad. Don't link to sites with ads.
4. Stratics is currently the only exception to #3; however, there may be more in the future. If you have an interest in being an exception, you're welcome to email me and as soon as we have a process I'll let you know what it is.

This doesn't change the whole submit-to-the-FoF process at all. I'm sure you have questions - feel free to ask them now so I can refine the version in the FoF

By #4, it completely negates the entire point. Noone else can do this except for my best friend because he is special. "as soon as we have a process"......... That is absolute crap. If one should be allowed to have ads, all should. It is amazing how hypocritical EA is becoming... (yes I realize it was this way before but since they are bringing it to light, I decided to point it out not)

 

[drinkbeerallday]

Stratics isn't being updated.

UOGuide is.

Where's the vanity in somebody deciding "This **** needs fixed, we need an up to date resource for the players." ?

who cares anyway? if the site is useful then good. i don't give a crap who is running it. George Bush is running the federal government. he has decided he will just throw you in jail if you don't like it. how's them apples? talk about vanity lol.

 

[NuSair]

Unless it involves EA hosting the sites (wouldn't work in our case) or sending us money, I'm rather stumped as to where an acceptable solution will be found.

JC if you cannot work out something with Jeremy, then contact me at [email protected] or pm here or whatever and we'll see what we can work out. I currently have webspace here: http://www.ixwebhosting.com/index.php/v2/pages.planUnlimitedPro

And I have the Unlimited Pro plan. I'd be willing to up the few things that aren't unlimited.

Let me know.

 

[NuSair]

Your webhosting provider is too expensive.

Try http://www.3ix.com/ for $1 per month or just type webhosting cheap into Google.

Wow, please get a clue before posting something like that again.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

EA can't ban everyone. If everyone in the game starts using UOGuide as a reference then there's not much they can do besides accept it.

Stratics is the best UO Forum. UOGuide is the best information site.

ea.custhelp.com is the best UO FAQ...

uoherald is the best blog

pretty simple really.

i hope Jeremy simply tells them that UOGuide is whitelisted, that's what needs to happen here. the site is established, end of story.

its not hard to share websites in game anyway. you mark a rune, put the web address on it, show it to someone in a trade window, then trash the rune.

most people just say "what's your icq i need to tell you something"

this thread is played out. i think Jeremy gets the point and she is your only advocate at Electronic Arts. let's move on at least temporarily.

 

[Aran]

When you know what you're talking about, please speak up - be since you don't, please refrain from uninformed statements.

There was a push on to update Stratics contents underway when the equipment blunder (that was handled by people other than actual staff) occurred, and that has necessarily taken precendence over the updates. I was actually working ON a smithing section revision at the very time the servers got messed with by the host. Most of that data is now in the Smith FAQ, and will be moving to the skill boards later. For that matter, last summer and fall there was an organized effort to update the Hunters guide with ML pics to go with the 2D ones, and that too was underway in early 2008 - that hardly sounds like "isn't being updated"

If you were so concerned with Stratics updates, where were YOUR attempts to get things improved? It is a board that is assembled by submissions of relevant material - when's the last time you did so? I can point to the stratics BOD calculators, and the research that went into them, as relatively recent pre-crash updates I had a hand in.

rolleyes: When you have a clue in your head about my point, feel free to continue replying to me.

By the way, as far as "my" attempts? I've been... politely informed, let's say, that my input isn't ..ah... appreciated, due to some past youthful indiscretions.

If you need it spelled out for your little noggin, PM me.

 

[AdamD]

Wow, please get a clue before posting something like that again.

Any host that offers "Unlimited" diskspace or bandwith, is lying.
There's no way any host is going to allow you to store unlimited amounts of data on their servers, it's just not physically possible
Nor would they allow you to transmit data in the thousands of gigabytes either.
And again, that kind of package from both your host and the previously mentioned one, is on a server which has any number of other websites sharing the resources of the server
And usually when you see sites offering dirt cheap hosting like that, they really mean "We stuff as many people on one server as we can and hope they don't use a lot of resources"
A site like UOGuide, with the CPU and memory intensive wiki he uses, needs either a decent VPS, or a dedicated server of it's own.

 

[AirmidCecht]

I think the main issue here still points to the lack of a fansite program for UO. I wonder if part of the reason for deleting the program was what happened with another radio station and it's owner admitting to a few questionable things. They were an approved fansite meaning it was okay to direct people there. Yes I know the potential pandora's box I'm peeking into but if we are going to set things right, I'd prefer to address it all since people like to question the credibility of the UOguide owner.

Instead of making it personal or a congeniality contest the fansite program would be the very best means of seeing who is in line with UO's standards and more importantly who is no longer in line with their standards. For someone to be dropped from a fansite program after being added would speak a lot to the community. Yes it can and will be hashed out on stratics forums to be sure but I feel it would be a fair way to say "these programs we do not necessarily endorse (since we cannot) but we do feel add to the community of players who enjoy UO."

It really is the next step and I am hoping Jeremy and those she brings our views to agrees.

 

[Lord Kynd]

No. The way it used to be was someone messaged me for the item, they sent me money and I gave them item. All done. Now you are proposing that I go through the trouble of setting up a network and advertising sales. Then I have to worry about scamming because these aren't just my items, they are ones people donated. It would not be fun to know that all your donations were lost because someone scammed them.

No free host is going to put up with a website with UOGuide's level of traffic. UOGuide practically needs its own dedicated server at this point. Those go for over $100 per month.

most 'free' sites have banners tho to support the 'freeness'
that meens you can't direct people to myspace nor icq. nor yahoo for that matter.
heck i won't even tell people to go to stratics anymore.

let me tell you, if new players do come they are going to be so lost without being able to be directed to sites like uoguide or stratics. or to go get icq/teamspeak/skype/ventrillo...

banner ad's are everywhere, how do you expect a site to not have them nowadays ?

 

[Lord Kynd]

EA can't ban everyone. If everyone in the game starts using UOGuide as a reference then there's not much they can do besides accept it.

.

you know you are kinda onto something here.. what would ea do if everyone started yelling out a web site , much like people do for Barton. and other protest's.

are you EA going to ban thousands of paying players because of some outdated policy that all of a sudden is getting massive attention?

hey new player there are tools that will make your gameplay more enjoyable, but we cant tell you anymore, and there is a messaging program that we could use to PM each other but i can't mention it anymore either, and some handy voice over ip programs but alas they can't be mentioned anymore either.
so have fun figureing out the game thru the help features lol


glad i can bite my tounge right now because this is .

and do you really think this is going to shut down the sites that do sell stuff for cash ? they are already embedded(commonplace) into our game thru the years.
only the new players/helpers/and those ignorant about using the web will this policy hurt.

uoguide can still flourish, we just can't advertise it.
but there are lots of ways to protest.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Oh ****!

http://www.poxnora.com/info/home.do;jsessionid=98DBD460434DD4FC2B3C3F3B0F52A945

...one of Stratics' ads, that SELLS SOMETHING.

Sorry Stratics, guess your banned too now.

This is ridiculous!

 

[hawkeye_pike]

What's all the excitement about? I run a fansite. (By the way, I have no ad banners, I run the site at my own cost.) It is not an approved official fan site. So what? I couldn't care less. Why would I want to advertise it in game (as I'm not making money through ad banners anyway)? You'll find it on Google when you type in certain search phrases.

Are you arguing for the good of the UO community, or are you maybe putting your own personal interests before that? Just an assumtion...

 

[Basara]

Aran, thank you for proving my point.

My point is that you HAVE no point, and that your statements were erroneous when you posted them. The only question was whether you knew they were, and your actions have shown that most likely you did know.

Your personal problems with Stratics in the past should not have any bearing on submitting material - only influencing whether you would ever be considered for a position with it. That you seem to equate the two, to me indicates you never even tried, submitted things that violated certain rules of the system (attacks on people, companies, etc.) or tried to roll the two (submission & position) together. Heck, I was submitting Stratics stuff (And it getting used) for over a year before they finally twisted my arm enough to get me to accept a moderator position. Trying to claim that they rejected submissions from you because of your behavior in the past just seems to ring hollow to me.

I support UOGuide as a user, and have even entered one or two things. I tend to do so to correct errors, rather than full submissions (I reserve that part of my work for Stratics), and in areas of UO where there is no conflict between my Stratics duties & anything on UOGuide (example: I edited the entry on the Treatise on Alchemy, but if something came up Smith-related, I'd pass the info on to another person, say JC or another major contributor, to prevent appearances of conflict of interest).

Frankly, while I use wikis, I really don't like them all that much. They are too easy for someone to monkey with, and I've had bad experiences with a few others (on one fan wiki, one person deleting whole, relevant, sections, because the posters wouldn't cite the instance down to the second of the dialogue that provided the data, instead just citing the episode and speaker; and on wikipedia itself, a business deleting dissent concerning their products and staff that was in the form of documented facts, and replacing it with hearsay attacks on their critics).

Wikis also depend on people volunteering to fill in the information, just like Stratics - but while wikis can often cover more areas quickly, they are also more likely for some items to never get dealt with, unless someone starts issuing assignments to cover the "less sexy" parts - just like every other attempt at such information collecting. And, they are definitely less elegant in dealing with overall guides (essays as opposed to walk-throughs) to a subject.

My dream site, if I was doing one of my own, would use a wiki-like structure for unsolicited submissions, whose data would be converted into more permanent and comprehensive essays and guides distinct from the wiki structure, that would tie the data together in a much more user-friendly, comprehensible, format.

 

[Aran]

Gee, you're right Basara. I'm a big fan of lying publicly where people can call my bluff. Guess I wasn't smart enough for you!


Remind me why I wanted to post in these forums again?

 

[Basara]

Because you get a cheap thrill in talking out of your nether regions about matters of which you have zero relevant knowledge? You only prove it more and more with each troll... Not that I'll see any more of them...

 

[Aran]

Because you get a cheap thrill in talking out of your nether regions about matters of which you have zero relevant knowledge? You only prove it more and more with each troll... Not that I'll see any more of them...

Curb the 'tude, dude.

 

[Harlequin]

The person who paged on me did so because he was looking for a way to get me suspended. He did not care one bit about whether UOGuide was a legal site, he did so to get back at me for suspending him from our guild website.

Ah, haven't been following up on this thread. Yes, I know. I read the posts before they were deleted. He also posted his alleged page, which went something like "he went to someone's webpage in his profile and the page has a trojan/virus/hack."

That's why I said instead of ignoring it, he wanted to avenge a past slight (as in "a previous grievance").

I didn't remove it until the policy was announced. There is no point in guessing at what EA wants. Because guess what happens? When you go to comply, EA says "oh no, you have to do this also". Which has happened even though I fully complied with what the policy said. Now they say you can't take direct donations.

Yes, that's why I said that this is in hindsight. I wouldn't have thought of doing it then either. I also commended you on removing the link on the spot and handling it well.

I was happy to comply with the policy, which is why I started this topic. Then Jeremy comes in with a curve ball and says no direct donations. Who is EA to dictate what we can and can not do on our website? We comply with all game rules and regulations. We don't list cheats, bugs, exploits. We keep the site focused on UO. This is just completely unjustified control that EA is trying to wrangle around our necks.

I even have kept the disclaimer required under the old fansite program in the bottom of every UOGuide page. That is something I have done in good faith even though the program was abolished. Now EA wants even more? I think I should just remove it.

The curve ball was because this was raising a huge issue and they decided to modify the policy. I do not agree that this is the best way, since this will start killing off the community. Case in point - people (if not you, someone else probably would) will start pointing fingers at other websites with the result that those fansites also get into trouble. To quote someone else - "Why are some animals more equal than others?"

You don't have a grudge with UOForums, so why did you not pm someone from UOForums and inform them that it might be wise to remove their donation link lest they also get into trouble like you? Wouldn't it be better if you then work with the UOForums people to petition to EA and work towards a solution? A positive and constructive way to deal with the situation.

The last paragraph is not an accusation, coz I would probably have done the same thing in your shoes. Just wanted to to high-light that people should consider working together which might achieve a better result.

In conclusion, let me ask everyone this - if you are not happy with the situation, put yourself in EA's shoes and suggest what you think would be the best policy.

Note that you have to cater for all situations that have or may arise. And also, you will be flamed for anything that you suggest, no matter how fair it is. There are bound to be people that will not be happy about your decision. You just have to make it as fair as possible.

Even if you come up with the ultimate answer and no one would get nailed to the cross this time, there will still be people that would go "Yeah, I rather wished that they spent time fixing bugs".

 

[Gildar]

Update 2

There has been another revision of the policy.

...
1. Sites that sell things (any things, not necessarily UO things) for cash are definitely forbidden
...

So UOGuide is free and clear..............for today at least.

UOGuide sells Website and UOAM hosting... so I do believe it is still in violation until additional exceptions can be made.